September 15, 2025 • 34 mins
In this eye-opening conversation, host Elizabeth Davis-Everhart welcomes piano teacher Tara Mock, who brings 30 years of teaching experience alongside her perspective as a parent of neurodivergent children. Together, they challenge the common misconceptions of neurodiversity that limit both teachers and students in the music studio.
From the myth that autistic students can't be social to assumptions about coordination challenges and behavioral issues, this conversation peels away layers of misunderstanding to reveal the unique gifts neurodivergent students bring to music education.
Ready to see your students—all your students—in a new light? This episode is your invitation to teaching with greater understanding, flexibility, and joy.
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Resources from Tara on Neurodiversity:
Learn more about Tara
Dr. Scott Price's book on Autism and Piano Study
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everh (00:00):
Hello , hello and welcome to episode
12 and the second episode in ournew series here- Deconstructing
Misconceptions ofNeurodivergent Learners.
You are in for a real treattoday, because I have here with
me a phenomenal music teacherand an amazing person who is
(00:24):
going to give us a really uniqueand phenomenal perspective on
neurodiversity.
I'll give her a betterintroduction in just a moment,
but before I do, I wanted toshare something really exciting
with you.
I shared on my Instagram andFacebook recently that I'm going
through a website upgrade.
(00:44):
This is going to be a brand new, much bigger website that's
going to be able to hold all ofthe courses so that you can just
log in right there and do allthe materials.
It's going to be much more userfriendly for you and you'll be
able to see everything we havecoming up, and the podcast and
the blog and lots of freebies,and a new online with resources,
(01:07):
etc.
I'm very excited about this!But, because the website might
look a little wonky between nowand then, if you have been
eyeing the Adaptive PianoTeaching course, Adaptive Piano
Pedagogy 101- This is thecomprehensive, self-guided
course- I believe it now has 12videos, over 10 hours of
(01:31):
learning, beautiful handouts andstudy guides to really help you
dig into neurodiversity on amuch more in-depth scale.
We're talking all of thenitty-gritty about most common
neurotypes you would encounterin teaching, like autism, ADHD,
dyslexia, and the best waysreading approach those students.
(01:54):
Music reading, rhythm,performances, repertoire,
communication, understandingbehaviors, the whole thing.
If you have been eyeing thatcourse, you can take 50% off of
the price of that course thisweek only, with the code
(02:15):
FLASHSALE50.
I'll put that link in thedescription.
But the course is normally $199and it includes everything I've
just mentioned and more.
But just for this week, whilewe're transitioning everything
to the new website, since it'sgoing to look a little funky, it
can be yours for $99.
And that's lifetime access- youcan have access to everything
(02:37):
for as long as you need andrewatch things as many times as
you like.
So if you're interested, justhead over to the website or
click the link in thedescription and you can use that
discount code.
It's not published anywhereelse, it's just for my friends
here on the podcast and onInstagram.
So if you're interested andyou've been thinking about it,
(03:01):
now is the perfect time.
Okay, now to introduce ourpodcast guest.
This teacher comes from thebeautiful state of North
Carolina in the United States.
She has been a piano teacherfor over 30 years.
She has a bachelor's and amaster's degree.
Her master's is from the sameschool I went to for my
(03:24):
doctorate, the University ofSouth Carolina.
She has experience being anaccompanist, a collaborative
pianist, a professional churchmusician, and she has also
raised and homeschooled twoamazing kids of her own all
while keeping up with all thethings that happens when you're
a musician.
(03:44):
And I am so pleased to have TaraMock here on the podcast with
me.
So Tara tara, thank you foragreeing to be with me on
today's episode!.
Tara Mock (03:57):
.
I think we should do this everymorning so I can be encouraged
every morning.
It's a great way to start theday.
It is, I love that.
So yeah, we'll do this greatway to start the day.
It is, I love that.
So, yeah, we'll do this againtomorrow.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart (04:08):
Oh , absolutely Same time.
Tara Mock (04:10):
Same time, same channel.
I'm excited.
I love that we can talk aboutall things piano teaching and
bounce ideas off of each other,and it's always good to have a
good piano teacher friend and agood friend in general to to
share this life year-.
.
Before we get into thenitty-gritty, can you just
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everha (04:31):
tell us a little bit about yourself
and your studio and yourstudents?
Tara Mock (04:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think the older that I get,the less I care about things, so
I will be silly and goofy withthe best of them.
I've been teaching for almost30 years.
Maybe at 30 years, I think,maybe 30 years next year I don't
keep track, I don't hold up asign and tell you what year of
teaching I have, but yeah, Istarted teaching when I was a
(05:02):
junior in college with apedagogy class, and I've been
doing it ever since.
I kind of took a break a coupleof times when my kids were
babies, or you know.
We've just had a lot of familyexperiences where I needed to
take a break, and then I kept mystudio small while I was
homeschooling my kids, and sonow that they're in college, I'm
(05:26):
back to teaching full timeagain and I love every second of
it.
I think I have the best jobever!
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhar (05:39):
You know, kids can feel, that-
students can feel when theirteachers enjoy working with them
and that's an amazingexperience that you give your
students, and just that gift ofbeing excited to see them.
Tara Mock (05:49):
I love that, yeah for sure.
And you and I both went toUniversity of South Carolina at
varied times, but I got mymaster's there and I think we
initially kind of connected overthat.
And then your specialization inneurodivergent learners and I'm
a mom of neurodivergent familymembers, kids, everybody.
(06:11):
We're neuro- spicy, so yeah.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Ever (06:17):
Thanks for sharing- I love hearing
that.
And along the lines ofneurodiversity, because that's a
lot of what we talk here onthis podcast of neurodiversity,
just in a nutshell, what's yourexperience teaching
neurodivergent students?
Tara Mock (06:34):
Well, when we as parents have kids, we're
essentially a teacher from thetime they're born, right, I mean
, we're teaching them how todress and brush their teeth and
go potty and all the things.
So both of my children areneurodivergent.
My son, we kind of knewsomething was different about
(06:55):
him from the beginning, but hereally wasn't diagnosed on the
spectrum until he was aboutseven or so.
So I have personal experienceat being a parent of
neurodivergent kids and whatit's like to navigate that world
and that life, and even withother piano teachers.
I had them take with otherteachers and they were fantastic
(07:16):
teachers.
But I also have experienceteaching them in my own studio,
either purposely or accidentally.
Sometimes they seek me out-students seek me out because I
enjoy teaching students who areneurodivergent and sometimes the
students come to me because I'ma teacher.
But then as I teach them, Ipick up on some things and and
(07:40):
just teach them as if they mighthave that diagnosis.
I don't know for sure.
And then I, you know, I justlove it.
I love having to be creative inthe moment, because you have to
be willing to change gears andgo with the flow with that
student in that moment, or thinkof a different way to explain
(08:00):
it.
I love that creativity.
It really gives me a lot of joy.
I don't think fast usually inconversations, but when I'm
teaching it's my superpower.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart (08:10):
Oh , I love that, and you and I
have that in common.
There's such a- I hate to usethe word rush, but it's so
exciting when you're in themoment with a student and you
have to just pivot and then itworks and you see that light
bulb.
That light bulb moment is justworth every bit of work we put
into it, and it drives me.
(08:32):
More than seeing my studentsperform, more than them winning
competitions.
Those light bulb moments are myfavorite.
Tara Mock (08:40):
They are and you know, I had that experience.
I think that's what I lovedabout homeschooling is getting
to experience those light bulbmoments with my own kids, like
with teaching your kids how toread you know letters, words,
not music.
It's one of the hardest thingsI've ever done.
It just takes a lot of patienceand they hit a wall and then
(09:01):
they get over it.
But to have them develop thislove for reading or they get so
fascinated by history, thatlight bulb, I was able to be
there to experience that.
So to do the same thing in mystudio.
But it's always.
Both situations are a marathon,not a sprint.
You know, you might not have atop-notch performer in six
months, but you stay with thatstudent for a few years and you
(09:23):
really start to see the thefruit of what you've been sowing
.
It's just it's like that highyou talked about.
It's even more of a high and asatisfaction that how we're
getting here, we're doing this.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhar (09:36):
You say it so well.
That is beautiful.
Even if we weren't good friendsalready, I can just feel the
love you have for your studentsand I know they can feel that.
This season on the podcastwe're kind of taking a different
spin on neurodiversity and weare digging into misconceptions
(10:01):
of teaching neurodivergentstudents, because there are A
lot.
There are a lot of things thatI thought would be true about
neurodivergent students when Iwas just starting out teaching.
But I would be really curiousto hear from your perspective as
a parent, as a teacher- give ussome of the misconceptions or
(10:25):
incorrect assumptions you'veheard over the years about
neurodivergent students.
Tara Mock (10:30):
I hope you have a lot of episodes slated for this,
because we could talkmisconceptions for a while.
Yes, but I do want to say upfront that, even as long as I've
been teaching, and even being aparent, I'm still learning and
correcting myself, maybe I stillhave some assumptions that are
incorrect.
(10:51):
So, you know, I'm always, Ialways want to learn and correct
things, and I yes, you knoweverybody just be humble in the
process.
You can be wrong, it's okay,and just same here.
Yeah, so do all the things.
Oh, so many misconceptions, andI've told this story on other
podcasts before but, I thinkthere's a misconception that
(11:16):
students who are neurodivergentare socially awkward and people
don't want to be around them.
Yes, I have a painful storyabout that experience with my
son.
I signed him up for somethingand the leader messaged back and
said well, no, he's not welcomehere because he would make
everybody uncomfortable andthat's not the case.
(11:39):
And so, yeah, while somestruggle and with different
things, I think that's a broadgenerality we need to avoid,
right?
You know, if you go to my son'scollege campus, it just tickles
us to no end that he says hi toeverybody.
Everybody says hi to him, likewho is this kid, Right?
(12:03):
You know, he's just veryfriendly and positive and
sunshiny.
And you know, both of my kidslearn social interaction the
same way we might learn math orwhatever.
They make observations, theykind of get the feedback or they
learn by watching, whereas it'sintuitive for some people, they
(12:26):
learn it, but they can be very,very good at it.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhar (12:29):
Yes , that's what I had heard as
well, that especially autism,that folks with autism don't
like to have conversations orthey can't have conversations.
It's like blanket statements.
And I was a young teacher and Ihad a student who the parents
(12:50):
told me he is autistic.
He was the chattiest, mostgregarious, outgoing, hilarious,
chatty student almost of myentire teaching career and I
remember instantly thinking oh,I have a lot to learn and this
is going to be really coolbecause he's going to teach me
(13:11):
how he is autistic, not howeverybody else is.
So, what a painful experiencefor you and your family to go
through with that, but goodlesson for all of us that these
blanket statements are often nottrue.
Tara Mock (13:24):
No, yeah, and that's what we want to avoid is blanket
statements.
Just avoid the assumptions.
Every person is unique.
This is my new favoritemisconception is0 and I've seen
this before but neurodivergentstudents, specifically students
on the autism spectrum or whatused to be called Asperger's
(13:46):
syndrome, just don't feelemotions or they don't have
emotions or they don't expressemotions and, you know, tend to
be very, very flat in theirdemeanor.
And I think it's quite theopposite and I've learned a lot
from my son about this, becausehe can come across that way, but
when you're with him one-on-one, like, he explains things in a
(14:07):
very great way.
I think sometimes they feel itso deeply and this is just my
uneducated theory, but they feelit so deeply that sometimes
it's easier to just not feel it.
I've seen that with my sonespecially and know that my son
(14:34):
gives me permission to talkabout him.
He doesn't mind, So I'm notspeaking out of turn.
But we were talking about musicrecently and this was a
misconception that I had.
I think I was even talking withyou and Christina.
I was like, oh well, ifsomebody has an autistic
tendency, how do they evenexpress themselves musically?
And both of you were like, ohno, no, this is really where
(14:59):
they express themselves.
And I was like I was gentlycorrected and I was so glad.
So then I was talking to my sonand he says "I use music to
help me understand how to feelthat emotion oh, that's
beautifully put.
How to feel that emotion ohthat's beautifully put, Right.
And I was just huge light bulbmoment for me Like okay, they
(15:19):
feel strongly, but sometimesthey don't know how to put a
name to it.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhar (15:22):
Yes .
Tara Mock (15:23):
You know, or am I supposed to be this angry?
Am I supposed to be this sad?
Is this what anger feels like?
You know, and um, for him toexplain it in that way was
deeply profound, like how doesthat make our job?
Then you know that we can helpour students I mean, we're not
(15:43):
going to get all touchy feelywith the emotions and stuff.
That's not my job, but to teachthem how to express themselves
at the piano the piano.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart (15:59):
I am so glad you said that because
I believe there are a lot ofsimilar misconceptions that
students with disabilitiescannot play expressive music.
Or I see it in so many Facebookposts.
Anybody that follows me onInstagram knows I posted a reel
about this a month or so ago.
I said I think I may have toban myself from Facebook- like,
(16:24):
I've had it because there arejust daily posts- and I'm not
even in very many Facebookgroups, but daily posts of
people asking for advice aboutneurodivergent students and
inevitably the comment sectionis just a list of well, they
can't do this, they won't beable to do that, they can't play
expressively, don't expect themto do this, don't expect them
(16:45):
to do that.
And what you're relating fromyour conversation with your son,
it's actually really oppositeand I've heard this from my own
neurodivergent students and,like you mentioned, it's such a
gift when they're able toarticulate and share that
insight with us, because not allkids can do that, but when they
(17:07):
do, it's a huge learning momentfor us.
I had a student just this pastschool year and he was really
struggling with overwhelm in hislessons and would just shut
down very quickly.
It was not at predictable times, there seemed to be no pattern
and I was really struggling toknow what was going on because I
(17:29):
couldn't find a pattern.
And one lesson he was able totell me "I am feeling so many
things that I don't know whichone to tell you first.
And a lot of it was actuallyexcitement.
Like he was feeling excitedabout his music or he was so
excited about one part of it,but then, maybe a little bit of
(17:50):
it was tricky and so theoverwhelm was just out-b
alancing the joy.
That is what I figured out.
And so he just didn't knowwhich emotion to lean into, how
to express it.
And it wasn't that he was justshutting me out, he just was
like "well, I'm feeling twothings and I guess I just can't
(18:10):
tell her about either of them.
I can't do it.
So I learned something theretoo about my student, and just a
good thing to file away forlater.
The outward expression is notalways what they're really
feeling.
(18:58):
No- there's, I can't think ofthe movie it is.
It's like a mockumentary with aband and it's where they turn
the the guitar amp up to 11, butit only goes to 10.
It's a hilarious scene, butthat's what I always think of is
like their brains are at an 11.
The input is all very intense,they're feeling very intensely,
(19:24):
but they don't know where tostart, you know, and so that's
kind of what I try to remember.
They're at an 11, you know, andanything we can do to kind of I
don't know, bring that down.
I can't find the right words.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhar (19:41):
Yes , that's a great perspective.
Have you heard anymisconceptions about, like the
coordination of kids who areneurodivergent in like their
hands?
I'm curious to see if you'veheard any of the crazy things
similar to me?
Tara Mock (19:59):
You're laughing because you're looking at my
face.
Yes, yes, I see this.
A common one is they can't telltheir left from their right, or
they can't make eye contact, oryou know, they can't do this,
they can't do that, like yousaid earlier, you know, or ADHD,
they can't stop moving.
Well, that's not necessarilyright.
(20:21):
There's so much, so much aboutthat, and it's just again a
broad generality.
Most of my little kids can'ttell their right from their left
.
I don't care.
It's not a big deal.
You know which which hand isgoing to play the high sounds,
okay, or put a sticker on thehand.
There's so many solutions- notto get wound up about it.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhar (20:44):
Get wound up.
I love it.
Tara Mock (20:47):
Or the eye contact thing.
Like my kids have no problemtelling right from left and they
have no problem making eyecontact and they have, you know,
coordination.
Yeah, it just depends Sometimesif you have like a motor muscle
, motor- Girl.
I need more coffee.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everh (21:06):
Motor planning.
Tara Mock (21:07):
That's what I was looking for, you know, they're
all so unique and some of themare going to be very coordinated
, some of them not.
I don't know.
You probably have moreexperience in this area.
What do you think?
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart (21:20):
I think you're spot on and I
always like to give teachers thebenefit of the doubt.
When I see all of thesecomments or when I get messages
like this, like I have a studentwho can't or I have a student
who won't, I give them thebenefit of the doubt because I
remember getting new studentswhere all I saw was the things
(21:41):
that they were not doing well.
As I'm assessing them, it wasoverwhelming to me as a young,
very new teacher, like whoa,they really are struggling with
these very basic piano skills.
So I try to give teachers thebenefit of the doubt.
Maybe they're overwhelmed withall the things that aren't going
well, but I think we kind ofhave to shift perspectives here.
(22:04):
If we continually focus on themisconceptions and the things we
assume from what we see, ourstudents are not going to make
much progress because we arelimiting them by maybe assuming
things.
You think?
Tara Mock (22:21):
Oh, a hundred percent .
I don't want to let anythingthat I do limit my students, and
I think that I see that a lotin Facebook groups.
There's these suddenassumptions about what you're
seeing in somebody's comments,and so it may not even be a post
(22:41):
about neurodivergencespecifically, but the teacher
says my student is doing thisand this and this behavior.
Right, and we have to rememberthat we're seeing literally 10
words, 20 words, yes, thank youAbout.
You know, a student who ateacher might have spent hours
with.
We're getting a tiny snippet,yes, so it's hard to give advice
(23:06):
on what's a tiny snippetwithout getting the big picture.
And, as you said before, allbehavior is communication.
So if somebody posts and saysthe student is doing this, they
won't stop playing the piano,they won't sit still, they won't
, you know.
And then there's this mass of Idon't know if it's kind to say
like old school teaching, likewell, no, if they can't behave,
(23:28):
you need to get rid of thatstudent.
Well, if they can't do this,you need to get rid of that
student.
Well, you need to talk to theparents.
And it's just this very strictthing.
And, as a parent, when my kidswere young, we quickly realized
that traditional disciplinemethods didn't work.
You know whether it was atimeout or a spanking, a light
(23:52):
tap on their diaper, or you knowthis or that.
It doesn't work.
And what I didn't understand asa young parent, was what they
were trying to communicate.
Yes, is there misbehavior?
Sometimes Absolutely, you know,we're all.
I misbehave,
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhar (24:08):
But what you're saying I think, if
I can follow your excellentthoughts here- is we are even
assuming, based on theirbehavior, that it's an instant
like oh, this is a defiantstudent or they need to be
corrected.
If they can't get that, youknow, nip it in the bud or
whatever.
Then they're just doing it onpurpose.
(24:29):
And that's not always the casefrom what you're saying and I
agree with you, yeah.
Tara Mock (24:36):
Not always the case.
.
Look at the bigger picture,look at the bigger situation.
A lot of times we don't knowwhat that student has been
experiencing that day or thatweek.
You know, if, um, we just wantto keep that in mind all the
time about our own students andeven about other teachers
(24:56):
students, you know, don't make asnap diagnosis, don't make a
snap judgment about what'shappening.
You know, open your ears, be bequick to listen and slower to
speak.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Ever (25:09):
That's such good advice for all of us.
And, you know, I think thiseven applies to our neurotypical
students Because, you know, ifyou see a snapshot, if I text
you and tell you my student hada terrible lesson, xyz happened,
and if your first assumption is, oh, they probably have, you
(25:30):
know, all these diagnosis, theycould have just had a really bad
day that day.
Maybe they're going through,their parents are separating and
they had to be with anotherparent or guardian and they
didn't have their favoritebreakfast.
Today it can be somethingtotally not piano related, right
, it can be something totallynot piano related.
Tara Mock (25:48):
Right, Absolutely.
I think we just need to have alot of grace.
Yes, Remember that we're asmall fraction of their lives,
but we want to be I know it'smaybe an overly used word
culturally, but we want to be asafe place for them, not
somewhere where they're going toget judgment.
(26:11):
I mean we all.
Music is unifying for culture,for people everywhere, right, no
matter what the culture is, butthe music can bring us together
and it needs to be a placewhere we can safely express
ourselves, whether we're dancingor feeling something or
whatever.
We don't want it to make aplace of discomfort and fear and
(26:34):
, oh, I need to behave.
Or, you know, just meet themwhere they are.
And if that means you go thelong way around to teach
something, I'm okay with that.
I think I've, you know, I'veconsulted with you on this
student.
It takes me a long way aroundto teach something and in fact,
if they were to stop and go toanother teacher, the other
(26:55):
teacher would probably go.
What was she doing?
Like?
I know she knows how to do that, why, what is the problem?
And if you don't have the bigpicture from me to know that, oh
, I have to go the long wayaround to teach this.
This was my long-term goal.
Absolutely the context matters.
Context matters, yeah, and sojust have that heart for
(27:16):
continuing to learn more andfind the resources.
The resources are there.
It seems overwhelming.
Neurodiversity is a buzzwordright now.
People are capitalizing on thatbecause, I mean, business is
business right, so make sure youhave good sources.
That's really important too.
Facebook can be a dumpster fire.
It can also be a wealth ofinformation.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart (27:38):
Oh , that's such good advice, and
maybe this takes us back to whatwe kind of started talking
about today, and that is, find agood group of teachers around
you that you can trust, thathave a similar teaching vision
and mentality that you do, andtrust them to give you good
advice.
Tara Mock (27:58):
it's yeah, and don't don't be scared to reach out,
like just because somebodyteaches at a university, or
somebody teaches uh, or you know, does what you, you do?
or they think they're kind ofunreachable?
Yes, not always the case.
Like, I am happy to answerquestions, I know that you are.
Just just be thankful andappreciative of their time and
(28:24):
give a little context to yourquestion and just be ready to
learn.
Be ready to learn, you know.
But that's why we're here.
We love what we do.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhar (28:33):
Yes , and I echo what Tara said- my
DMs, my inbox, stays open.
It might take me a little bitto get back to you because I get
a lot of messages, but, Tara,maybe what we'll do is put in
the show notes for today some ofour resources.
Like, if people have questionsabout neurodiversity, here are
(28:54):
some good, trusted ones to go to, so we'll link that for you, so
that if you're curious and youwant to dig in a little more,
we've got some good places foryou to start where you won't
have to wonder 'ah, is thismisinformation?
Is it fake news, like what'sgoing on here.
'
Tara Mock (29:11):
You won't have to wonder, and we have little gems
of ideas.
I wish you could see me rightnow I'm doing my little evil
planning.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everha (29:18):
Yeah , she's doing her finger tapping
.
We have lots more coming onthis topic.
Tara Mock (29:23):
Yes, I'm super, super excited.
I love it.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhar (29:34):
And if you're listening, then you
are hearing from two people whoare literally at their peak of
joy to talk about neurodiversity.
You can't see our faces, but weare smiling so hugely right now
because it's so much fun.
It's so much fun.
Tara Mock (29:52):
And I think, when we've talked about this before,
it's fun, it fuels us, it givesus joy.
The overarching picture is, Ilove what I do and, you know,
find your joy.
And if teaching neurodivergentstudents isn't for you, that's
okay.
Like we're not looking down onyou, just say, hey, this isn't
my strong suit.
So teaching neurodivergentstudents isn't for you, that is
(30:12):
okay.
There is no condemnation fromme at all.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everh (30:15):
Right , and I am so glad you said that
, because even if you'relistening, you know you don't
advertise yourself to be ateacher that specializes in
neurodiversity.
You don't have to be- to justbe curious about how to teach
things differently.
And that's really what thispodcast, Creative Piano Pedagogy
, the blog, is all about.
(30:36):
It's just helping you becurious and learn how to teach
students who just think andlearn differently.
So you don't have to be orproclaim yourself to be a
specialist or even want to bethat, just to be curious.
I think the best teachers arevery, very curious people.
So if you're here and you'recurious, welcome.
You're in the right place.
Join us.
(30:58):
Tara, thank you so much forbeing on today.
I have learned a lot from ourconversation and it's reminded
me of the importance of notassuming anything about our
students- good or otherwise;based on how they look, how they
act, how they talk.
I don't need to makeassumptions about my student
(31:21):
because they're their own person.
So thank you for sharing all ofyour wealth of wisdom and I
know we're going to be hearingmore from you soon.
Tara Mock (31:31):
Yes, oh, I'm already thinking of things I forgot to
say.
So we have to do this again.
We definitely will.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everh (31:37):
Thank you so much for being here,
Tara!
Tara Mock (31:39):
You're welcome, it was fun!
Hello , hello and welcome to episode
12 and the second episode in ournew series here- Deconstructing
Misconceptions ofNeurodivergent Learners.
You are in for a real treattoday, because I have here with
me a phenomenal music teacherand an amazing person who is
(00:24):
going to give us a really uniqueand phenomenal perspective on
neurodiversity.
I'll give her a betterintroduction in just a moment,
but before I do, I wanted toshare something really exciting
with you.
I shared on my Instagram andFacebook recently that I'm going
through a website upgrade.
(00:44):
This is going to be a brand new, much bigger website that's
going to be able to hold all ofthe courses so that you can just
log in right there and do allthe materials.
It's going to be much more userfriendly for you and you'll be
able to see everything we havecoming up, and the podcast and
the blog and lots of freebies,and a new online with resources,
(01:07):
etc.
I'm very excited about this!But, because the website might
look a little wonky between nowand then, if you have been
eyeing the Adaptive PianoTeaching course, Adaptive Piano
Pedagogy 101- This is thecomprehensive, self-guided
course- I believe it now has 12videos, over 10 hours of
(01:31):
learning, beautiful handouts andstudy guides to really help you
dig into neurodiversity on amuch more in-depth scale.
We're talking all of thenitty-gritty about most common
neurotypes you would encounterin teaching, like autism, ADHD,
dyslexia, and the best waysreading approach those students.
(01:54):
Music reading, rhythm,performances, repertoire,
communication, understandingbehaviors, the whole thing.
If you have been eyeing thatcourse, you can take 50% off of
the price of that course thisweek only, with the code
(02:15):
FLASHSALE50.
I'll put that link in thedescription.
But the course is normally $199and it includes everything I've
just mentioned and more.
But just for this week, whilewe're transitioning everything
to the new website, since it'sgoing to look a little funky, it
can be yours for $99.
And that's lifetime access- youcan have access to everything
(02:37):
for as long as you need andrewatch things as many times as
you like.
So if you're interested, justhead over to the website or
click the link in thedescription and you can use that
discount code.
It's not published anywhereelse, it's just for my friends
here on the podcast and onInstagram.
So if you're interested andyou've been thinking about it,
(03:01):
now is the perfect time.
Okay, now to introduce ourpodcast guest.
This teacher comes from thebeautiful state of North
Carolina in the United States.
She has been a piano teacherfor over 30 years.
She has a bachelor's and amaster's degree.
Her master's is from the sameschool I went to for my
(03:24):
doctorate, the University ofSouth Carolina.
She has experience being anaccompanist, a collaborative
pianist, a professional churchmusician, and she has also
raised and homeschooled twoamazing kids of her own all
while keeping up with all thethings that happens when you're
a musician.
(03:44):
And I am so pleased to have TaraMock here on the podcast with
me.
So Tara tara, thank you foragreeing to be with me on
today's episode!.
Tara Mock (03:57):
.
I think we should do this everymorning so I can be encouraged
every morning.
It's a great way to start theday.
It is, I love that.
So yeah, we'll do this greatway to start the day.
It is, I love that.
So, yeah, we'll do this againtomorrow.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart (04:08):
Oh , absolutely Same time.
Tara Mock (04:10):
Same time, same channel.
I'm excited.
I love that we can talk aboutall things piano teaching and
bounce ideas off of each other,and it's always good to have a
good piano teacher friend and agood friend in general to to
share this life year-.
.
Before we get into thenitty-gritty, can you just
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everha (04:31):
tell us a little bit about yourself
and your studio and yourstudents?
Tara Mock (04:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think the older that I get,the less I care about things, so
I will be silly and goofy withthe best of them.
I've been teaching for almost30 years.
Maybe at 30 years, I think,maybe 30 years next year I don't
keep track, I don't hold up asign and tell you what year of
teaching I have, but yeah, Istarted teaching when I was a
(05:02):
junior in college with apedagogy class, and I've been
doing it ever since.
I kind of took a break a coupleof times when my kids were
babies, or you know.
We've just had a lot of familyexperiences where I needed to
take a break, and then I kept mystudio small while I was
homeschooling my kids, and sonow that they're in college, I'm
(05:26):
back to teaching full timeagain and I love every second of
it.
I think I have the best jobever!
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhar (05:39):
You know, kids can feel, that-
students can feel when theirteachers enjoy working with them
and that's an amazingexperience that you give your
students, and just that gift ofbeing excited to see them.
Tara Mock (05:49):
I love that, yeah for sure.
And you and I both went toUniversity of South Carolina at
varied times, but I got mymaster's there and I think we
initially kind of connected overthat.
And then your specialization inneurodivergent learners and I'm
a mom of neurodivergent familymembers, kids, everybody.
(06:11):
We're neuro- spicy, so yeah.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Ever (06:17):
Thanks for sharing- I love hearing
that.
And along the lines ofneurodiversity, because that's a
lot of what we talk here onthis podcast of neurodiversity,
just in a nutshell, what's yourexperience teaching
neurodivergent students?
Tara Mock (06:34):
Well, when we as parents have kids, we're
essentially a teacher from thetime they're born, right, I mean
, we're teaching them how todress and brush their teeth and
go potty and all the things.
So both of my children areneurodivergent.
My son, we kind of knewsomething was different about
(06:55):
him from the beginning, but hereally wasn't diagnosed on the
spectrum until he was aboutseven or so.
So I have personal experienceat being a parent of
neurodivergent kids and whatit's like to navigate that world
and that life, and even withother piano teachers.
I had them take with otherteachers and they were fantastic
(07:16):
teachers.
But I also have experienceteaching them in my own studio,
either purposely or accidentally.
Sometimes they seek me out-students seek me out because I
enjoy teaching students who areneurodivergent and sometimes the
students come to me because I'ma teacher.
But then as I teach them, Ipick up on some things and and
(07:40):
just teach them as if they mighthave that diagnosis.
I don't know for sure.
And then I, you know, I justlove it.
I love having to be creative inthe moment, because you have to
be willing to change gears andgo with the flow with that
student in that moment, or thinkof a different way to explain
(08:00):
it.
I love that creativity.
It really gives me a lot of joy.
I don't think fast usually inconversations, but when I'm
teaching it's my superpower.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart (08:10):
Oh , I love that, and you and I
have that in common.
There's such a- I hate to usethe word rush, but it's so
exciting when you're in themoment with a student and you
have to just pivot and then itworks and you see that light
bulb.
That light bulb moment is justworth every bit of work we put
into it, and it drives me.
(08:32):
More than seeing my studentsperform, more than them winning
competitions.
Those light bulb moments are myfavorite.
Tara Mock (08:40):
They are and you know, I had that experience.
I think that's what I lovedabout homeschooling is getting
to experience those light bulbmoments with my own kids, like
with teaching your kids how toread you know letters, words,
not music.
It's one of the hardest thingsI've ever done.
It just takes a lot of patienceand they hit a wall and then
(09:01):
they get over it.
But to have them develop thislove for reading or they get so
fascinated by history, thatlight bulb, I was able to be
there to experience that.
So to do the same thing in mystudio.
But it's always.
Both situations are a marathon,not a sprint.
You know, you might not have atop-notch performer in six
months, but you stay with thatstudent for a few years and you
(09:23):
really start to see the thefruit of what you've been sowing
.
It's just it's like that highyou talked about.
It's even more of a high and asatisfaction that how we're
getting here, we're doing this.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhar (09:36):
You say it so well.
That is beautiful.
Even if we weren't good friendsalready, I can just feel the
love you have for your studentsand I know they can feel that.
This season on the podcastwe're kind of taking a different
spin on neurodiversity and weare digging into misconceptions
(10:01):
of teaching neurodivergentstudents, because there are A
lot.
There are a lot of things thatI thought would be true about
neurodivergent students when Iwas just starting out teaching.
But I would be really curiousto hear from your perspective as
a parent, as a teacher- give ussome of the misconceptions or
(10:25):
incorrect assumptions you'veheard over the years about
neurodivergent students.
Tara Mock (10:30):
I hope you have a lot of episodes slated for this,
because we could talkmisconceptions for a while.
Yes, but I do want to say upfront that, even as long as I've
been teaching, and even being aparent, I'm still learning and
correcting myself, maybe I stillhave some assumptions that are
incorrect.
(10:51):
So, you know, I'm always, Ialways want to learn and correct
things, and I yes, you knoweverybody just be humble in the
process.
You can be wrong, it's okay,and just same here.
Yeah, so do all the things.
Oh, so many misconceptions, andI've told this story on other
podcasts before but, I thinkthere's a misconception that
(11:16):
students who are neurodivergentare socially awkward and people
don't want to be around them.
Yes, I have a painful storyabout that experience with my
son.
I signed him up for somethingand the leader messaged back and
said well, no, he's not welcomehere because he would make
everybody uncomfortable andthat's not the case.
(11:39):
And so, yeah, while somestruggle and with different
things, I think that's a broadgenerality we need to avoid,
right?
You know, if you go to my son'scollege campus, it just tickles
us to no end that he says hi toeverybody.
Everybody says hi to him, likewho is this kid, Right?
(12:03):
You know, he's just veryfriendly and positive and
sunshiny.
And you know, both of my kidslearn social interaction the
same way we might learn math orwhatever.
They make observations, theykind of get the feedback or they
learn by watching, whereas it'sintuitive for some people, they
(12:26):
learn it, but they can be very,very good at it.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhar (12:29):
Yes , that's what I had heard as
well, that especially autism,that folks with autism don't
like to have conversations orthey can't have conversations.
It's like blanket statements.
And I was a young teacher and Ihad a student who the parents
(12:50):
told me he is autistic.
He was the chattiest, mostgregarious, outgoing, hilarious,
chatty student almost of myentire teaching career and I
remember instantly thinking oh,I have a lot to learn and this
is going to be really coolbecause he's going to teach me
(13:11):
how he is autistic, not howeverybody else is.
So, what a painful experiencefor you and your family to go
through with that, but goodlesson for all of us that these
blanket statements are often nottrue.
Tara Mock (13:24):
No, yeah, and that's what we want to avoid is blanket
statements.
Just avoid the assumptions.
Every person is unique.
This is my new favoritemisconception is0 and I've seen
this before but neurodivergentstudents, specifically students
on the autism spectrum or whatused to be called Asperger's
(13:46):
syndrome, just don't feelemotions or they don't have
emotions or they don't expressemotions and, you know, tend to
be very, very flat in theirdemeanor.
And I think it's quite theopposite and I've learned a lot
from my son about this, becausehe can come across that way, but
when you're with him one-on-one, like, he explains things in a
(14:07):
very great way.
I think sometimes they feel itso deeply and this is just my
uneducated theory, but they feelit so deeply that sometimes
it's easier to just not feel it.
I've seen that with my sonespecially and know that my son
(14:34):
gives me permission to talkabout him.
He doesn't mind, So I'm notspeaking out of turn.
But we were talking about musicrecently and this was a
misconception that I had.
I think I was even talking withyou and Christina.
I was like, oh well, ifsomebody has an autistic
tendency, how do they evenexpress themselves musically?
And both of you were like, ohno, no, this is really where
(14:59):
they express themselves.
And I was like I was gentlycorrected and I was so glad.
So then I was talking to my sonand he says "I use music to
help me understand how to feelthat emotion oh, that's
beautifully put.
How to feel that emotion ohthat's beautifully put, Right.
And I was just huge light bulbmoment for me Like okay, they
(15:19):
feel strongly, but sometimesthey don't know how to put a
name to it.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhar (15:22):
Yes .
Tara Mock (15:23):
You know, or am I supposed to be this angry?
Am I supposed to be this sad?
Is this what anger feels like?
You know, and um, for him toexplain it in that way was
deeply profound, like how doesthat make our job?
Then you know that we can helpour students I mean, we're not
(15:43):
going to get all touchy feelywith the emotions and stuff.
That's not my job, but to teachthem how to express themselves
at the piano the piano.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart (15:59):
I am so glad you said that because
I believe there are a lot ofsimilar misconceptions that
students with disabilitiescannot play expressive music.
Or I see it in so many Facebookposts.
Anybody that follows me onInstagram knows I posted a reel
about this a month or so ago.
I said I think I may have toban myself from Facebook- like,
(16:24):
I've had it because there arejust daily posts- and I'm not
even in very many Facebookgroups, but daily posts of
people asking for advice aboutneurodivergent students and
inevitably the comment sectionis just a list of well, they
can't do this, they won't beable to do that, they can't play
expressively, don't expect themto do this, don't expect them
(16:45):
to do that.
And what you're relating fromyour conversation with your son,
it's actually really oppositeand I've heard this from my own
neurodivergent students and,like you mentioned, it's such a
gift when they're able toarticulate and share that
insight with us, because not allkids can do that, but when they
(17:07):
do, it's a huge learning momentfor us.
I had a student just this pastschool year and he was really
struggling with overwhelm in hislessons and would just shut
down very quickly.
It was not at predictable times, there seemed to be no pattern
and I was really struggling toknow what was going on because I
(17:29):
couldn't find a pattern.
And one lesson he was able totell me "I am feeling so many
things that I don't know whichone to tell you first.
And a lot of it was actuallyexcitement.
Like he was feeling excitedabout his music or he was so
excited about one part of it,but then, maybe a little bit of
(17:50):
it was tricky and so theoverwhelm was just out-b
alancing the joy.
That is what I figured out.
And so he just didn't knowwhich emotion to lean into, how
to express it.
And it wasn't that he was justshutting me out, he just was
like "well, I'm feeling twothings and I guess I just can't
(18:10):
tell her about either of them.
I can't do it.
So I learned something theretoo about my student, and just a
good thing to file away forlater.
The outward expression is notalways what they're really
feeling.
(18:58):
No- there's, I can't think ofthe movie it is.
It's like a mockumentary with aband and it's where they turn
the the guitar amp up to 11, butit only goes to 10.
It's a hilarious scene, butthat's what I always think of is
like their brains are at an 11.
The input is all very intense,they're feeling very intensely,
(19:24):
but they don't know where tostart, you know, and so that's
kind of what I try to remember.
They're at an 11, you know, andanything we can do to kind of I
don't know, bring that down.
I can't find the right words.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhar (19:41):
Yes , that's a great perspective.
Have you heard anymisconceptions about, like the
coordination of kids who areneurodivergent in like their
hands?
I'm curious to see if you'veheard any of the crazy things
similar to me?
Tara Mock (19:59):
You're laughing because you're looking at my
face.
Yes, yes, I see this.
A common one is they can't telltheir left from their right, or
they can't make eye contact, oryou know, they can't do this,
they can't do that, like yousaid earlier, you know, or ADHD,
they can't stop moving.
Well, that's not necessarilyright.
(20:21):
There's so much, so much aboutthat, and it's just again a
broad generality.
Most of my little kids can'ttell their right from their left
.
I don't care.
It's not a big deal.
You know which which hand isgoing to play the high sounds,
okay, or put a sticker on thehand.
There's so many solutions- notto get wound up about it.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhar (20:44):
Get wound up.
I love it.
Tara Mock (20:47):
Or the eye contact thing.
Like my kids have no problemtelling right from left and they
have no problem making eyecontact and they have, you know,
coordination.
Yeah, it just depends Sometimesif you have like a motor muscle
, motor- Girl.
I need more coffee.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everh (21:06):
Motor planning.
Tara Mock (21:07):
That's what I was looking for, you know, they're
all so unique and some of themare going to be very coordinated
, some of them not.
I don't know.
You probably have moreexperience in this area.
What do you think?
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart (21:20):
I think you're spot on and I
always like to give teachers thebenefit of the doubt.
When I see all of thesecomments or when I get messages
like this, like I have a studentwho can't or I have a student
who won't, I give them thebenefit of the doubt because I
remember getting new studentswhere all I saw was the things
(21:41):
that they were not doing well.
As I'm assessing them, it wasoverwhelming to me as a young,
very new teacher, like whoa,they really are struggling with
these very basic piano skills.
So I try to give teachers thebenefit of the doubt.
Maybe they're overwhelmed withall the things that aren't going
well, but I think we kind ofhave to shift perspectives here.
(22:04):
If we continually focus on themisconceptions and the things we
assume from what we see, ourstudents are not going to make
much progress because we arelimiting them by maybe assuming
things.
You think?
Tara Mock (22:21):
Oh, a hundred percent .
I don't want to let anythingthat I do limit my students, and
I think that I see that a lotin Facebook groups.
There's these suddenassumptions about what you're
seeing in somebody's comments,and so it may not even be a post
(22:41):
about neurodivergencespecifically, but the teacher
says my student is doing thisand this and this behavior.
Right, and we have to rememberthat we're seeing literally 10
words, 20 words, yes, thank youAbout.
You know, a student who ateacher might have spent hours
with.
We're getting a tiny snippet,yes, so it's hard to give advice
(23:06):
on what's a tiny snippetwithout getting the big picture.
And, as you said before, allbehavior is communication.
So if somebody posts and saysthe student is doing this, they
won't stop playing the piano,they won't sit still, they won't
, you know.
And then there's this mass of Idon't know if it's kind to say
like old school teaching, likewell, no, if they can't behave,
(23:28):
you need to get rid of thatstudent.
Well, if they can't do this,you need to get rid of that
student.
Well, you need to talk to theparents.
And it's just this very strictthing.
And, as a parent, when my kidswere young, we quickly realized
that traditional disciplinemethods didn't work.
You know whether it was atimeout or a spanking, a light
(23:52):
tap on their diaper, or you knowthis or that.
It doesn't work.
And what I didn't understand asa young parent, was what they
were trying to communicate.
Yes, is there misbehavior?
Sometimes Absolutely, you know,we're all.
I misbehave,
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhar (24:08):
But what you're saying I think, if
I can follow your excellentthoughts here- is we are even
assuming, based on theirbehavior, that it's an instant
like oh, this is a defiantstudent or they need to be
corrected.
If they can't get that, youknow, nip it in the bud or
whatever.
Then they're just doing it onpurpose.
(24:29):
And that's not always the casefrom what you're saying and I
agree with you, yeah.
Tara Mock (24:36):
Not always the case.
.
Look at the bigger picture,look at the bigger situation.
A lot of times we don't knowwhat that student has been
experiencing that day or thatweek.
You know, if, um, we just wantto keep that in mind all the
time about our own students andeven about other teachers
(24:56):
students, you know, don't make asnap diagnosis, don't make a
snap judgment about what'shappening.
You know, open your ears, be bequick to listen and slower to
speak.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Ever (25:09):
That's such good advice for all of us.
And, you know, I think thiseven applies to our neurotypical
students Because, you know, ifyou see a snapshot, if I text
you and tell you my student hada terrible lesson, xyz happened,
and if your first assumption is, oh, they probably have, you
(25:30):
know, all these diagnosis, theycould have just had a really bad
day that day.
Maybe they're going through,their parents are separating and
they had to be with anotherparent or guardian and they
didn't have their favoritebreakfast.
Today it can be somethingtotally not piano related, right
, it can be something totallynot piano related.
Tara Mock (25:48):
Right, Absolutely.
I think we just need to have alot of grace.
Yes, Remember that we're asmall fraction of their lives,
but we want to be I know it'smaybe an overly used word
culturally, but we want to be asafe place for them, not
somewhere where they're going toget judgment.
(26:11):
I mean we all.
Music is unifying for culture,for people everywhere, right, no
matter what the culture is, butthe music can bring us together
and it needs to be a placewhere we can safely express
ourselves, whether we're dancingor feeling something or
whatever.
We don't want it to make aplace of discomfort and fear and
(26:34):
, oh, I need to behave.
Or, you know, just meet themwhere they are.
And if that means you go thelong way around to teach
something, I'm okay with that.
I think I've, you know, I'veconsulted with you on this
student.
It takes me a long way aroundto teach something and in fact,
if they were to stop and go toanother teacher, the other
(26:55):
teacher would probably go.
What was she doing?
Like?
I know she knows how to do that, why, what is the problem?
And if you don't have the bigpicture from me to know that, oh
, I have to go the long wayaround to teach this.
This was my long-term goal.
Absolutely the context matters.
Context matters, yeah, and sojust have that heart for
(27:16):
continuing to learn more andfind the resources.
The resources are there.
It seems overwhelming.
Neurodiversity is a buzzwordright now.
People are capitalizing on thatbecause, I mean, business is
business right, so make sure youhave good sources.
That's really important too.
Facebook can be a dumpster fire.
It can also be a wealth ofinformation.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhart (27:38):
Oh , that's such good advice, and
maybe this takes us back to whatwe kind of started talking
about today, and that is, find agood group of teachers around
you that you can trust, thathave a similar teaching vision
and mentality that you do, andtrust them to give you good
advice.
Tara Mock (27:58):
it's yeah, and don't don't be scared to reach out,
like just because somebodyteaches at a university, or
somebody teaches uh, or you know, does what you, you do?
or they think they're kind ofunreachable?
Yes, not always the case.
Like, I am happy to answerquestions, I know that you are.
Just just be thankful andappreciative of their time and
(28:24):
give a little context to yourquestion and just be ready to
learn.
Be ready to learn, you know.
But that's why we're here.
We love what we do.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhar (28:33):
Yes , and I echo what Tara said- my
DMs, my inbox, stays open.
It might take me a little bitto get back to you because I get
a lot of messages, but, Tara,maybe what we'll do is put in
the show notes for today some ofour resources.
Like, if people have questionsabout neurodiversity, here are
(28:54):
some good, trusted ones to go to, so we'll link that for you, so
that if you're curious and youwant to dig in a little more,
we've got some good places foryou to start where you won't
have to wonder 'ah, is thismisinformation?
Is it fake news, like what'sgoing on here.
'
Tara Mock (29:11):
You won't have to wonder, and we have little gems
of ideas.
I wish you could see me rightnow I'm doing my little evil
planning.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everha (29:18):
Yeah , she's doing her finger tapping
.
We have lots more coming onthis topic.
Tara Mock (29:23):
Yes, I'm super, super excited.
I love it.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everhar (29:34):
And if you're listening, then you
are hearing from two people whoare literally at their peak of
joy to talk about neurodiversity.
You can't see our faces, but weare smiling so hugely right now
because it's so much fun.
It's so much fun.
Tara Mock (29:52):
And I think, when we've talked about this before,
it's fun, it fuels us, it givesus joy.
The overarching picture is, Ilove what I do and, you know,
find your joy.
And if teaching neurodivergentstudents isn't for you, that's
okay.
Like we're not looking down onyou, just say, hey, this isn't
my strong suit.
So teaching neurodivergentstudents isn't for you, that is
(30:12):
okay.
There is no condemnation fromme at all.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everh (30:15):
Right , and I am so glad you said that
, because even if you'relistening, you know you don't
advertise yourself to be ateacher that specializes in
neurodiversity.
You don't have to be- to justbe curious about how to teach
things differently.
And that's really what thispodcast, Creative Piano Pedagogy
, the blog, is all about.
(30:36):
It's just helping you becurious and learn how to teach
students who just think andlearn differently.
So you don't have to be orproclaim yourself to be a
specialist or even want to bethat, just to be curious.
I think the best teachers arevery, very curious people.
So if you're here and you'recurious, welcome.
You're in the right place.
Join us.
(30:58):
Tara, thank you so much forbeing on today.
I have learned a lot from ourconversation and it's reminded
me of the importance of notassuming anything about our
students- good or otherwise;based on how they look, how they
act, how they talk.
I don't need to makeassumptions about my student
(31:21):
because they're their own person.
So thank you for sharing all ofyour wealth of wisdom and I
know we're going to be hearingmore from you soon.
Tara Mock (31:31):
Yes, oh, I'm already thinking of things I forgot to
say.
So we have to do this again.
We definitely will.
Dr. Elizabeth Davis-Everh (31:37):
Thank you so much for being here,
Tara!
Tara Mock (31:39):
You're welcome, it was fun!
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