September 8, 2024 • 44 mins
In this special replay of "Creative Space," we revisit one of our most powerful conversations, featuring singer-songwriter Avi Wisnia. Avi was the very first guest on "Creative Space," and his journey has inspired so many of us.
In this episode, Avi and I discuss:
- His early passion for music and piano lessons at age five
- The making of "How Saba Kept Singing," an Emmy-nominated documentary featuring Avi and his Holocaust survivor grandfather
- How performing with his grandfather in Poland rekindled his love for music
- The profound impact of community and collaboration in nurturing creativity
- Coping with personal loss and finding joy in creativity again
At the time of recording, "Creative Space" was in its early days (no lighting, no makeup, bare backdrop), but Avi’s story was so moving that it helped shape what the podcast has grown into today.
Tune in for a heartfelt conversation about music, resilience, and the healing power of art. Don’t miss "How Saba Kept Singing" as it heads into the Emmys next week!
For more information on Avi, visit: aviwisnia.com.
To sign up for the weekly Creative Space newsletter, visit: http://eepurl.com/h8SJ9b.
To become a patron of the Creative Space podcast, visit: https://bit.ly/3ECD2Kr.
SHOW NOTES:
0:00 — Introduction
2:00 — Reflecting on the early days of Creative Space and its growth
3:30 — Avi Wisnia’s early passion for music and first piano lessons
5:50 — Influence of classic songwriters like Billy Joel, Elton John, and Carole King
8:20 — Discussing How Saba Kept Singing and the inspiration behind it
12:00 — Creativity and playfulness: Where Avi believes creativity comes from
15:30 — The power of collaboration and community in nurturing creativity
19:00 — Avi’s songwriting process: Music first, lyrics later
23:10 — Catching Leaves: The inspiration behind the title track
27:00 — Coping with grief and finding his way back to music after losing his brother
31:00 — The impact of performing with his grandfather, David Wisnia
36:00 — The making of How Saba Kept Singing and the significance of music in his grandfather's life
41:00 — Conclusion and where to find Avi’s music and How Saba Kept Singing
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jennifer Logue (00:10):
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode
of Creative Space, a podcastwhere we explore, learn and grow
in creativity together.
I'm your host, jennifer Logue,and as we gear up for Season 3,
yes, season three, I can'tbelieve it myself which is
launching on Sunday, october20th, we will be revisiting the
(00:31):
most popular episodes from thelast two seasons of Creative
Space, and today's guest holds avery special place in Creative
Space history, avi Wisnia, whowas my very first guest on the
show.
Avi is an incrediblesinger-songwriter who has
performed worldwide and sharedstages with legends like the
(00:54):
Roots and Annie DeFranco.
He was also recently featuredin the powerful documentary how
Saba Kept Singing alongside hisgrandfather, a Holocaust
survivor the film which isnominated, by the way, for an
Emmy next week.
So you'll have to tune in andcheer them on.
It's a moving tribute to familyresilience and the healing
(01:18):
power of music.
When I first recorded thisepisode, the podcast was still
in its early days and, to behonest, I didn't even plan on it
being a video podcast at thetime, and my walls were bare, I
didn't have proper lighting andI don't even think I was wearing
makeup.
(01:39):
But that's okay, Because theconversation with Avi was so
powerful so powerful that itmarked the beginning of what
Creative Space has grown intotoday, which is an incredible
platform for artists andcreatives from all backgrounds
to share their journeys andthoughts on creativity.
(02:01):
I am thrilled to have the chanceto revisit this captivating
interview.
In this episode, avi and Icover discovering his passion
for music at a young age.
The making of the Emmynominated.
How Saba Kept Singing andPerforming with His Grandfather
in Poland.
How music became a way for hisgrandfather to process trauma
(02:24):
and share his story.
The ups and downs of Avi's owncreative journey, including
dealing with loss and griefafter losing his brother.
The power of community andcollaboration in nurturing
creativity.
I hope you find Avi's story asinspiring as I did when we first
recorded it.
So, without further ado, here'smy conversation with Avi Wisnia.
(02:48):
Welcome to Creative Space, apodcast where we learn and grow
in creativity together.
For today's episode, we havethe pleasure of speaking with
singer-songwriter Avi Wisnia.
He's performed around the worldin venues like the Hammerstein
Ballroom in New York City andthe Kennedy Center in DC,
playing alongside artists likethe Roots and Ani DiFranco.
(03:09):
He was recently featured in adocumentary executive produced
by Hillary Rodham Clinton andChelsea Clinton alongside his
late grandfather David, his Saba, how Saba Kept Singing, his
Saba, how Saba kept singing.
And Avi just has a beautifulcreative life and I'm so excited
(03:29):
to chat with him as my firstactual official interview for
Creative Space Avi Welcome.
Avi Wisnia (03:34):
I'm honored.
Congratulations on kickstartingthe podcast and thanks for that
great introduction.
Happy to be with you.
Jennifer Logue (03:42):
Oh my gosh, this is so fun, Avi.
We've known each other for like10 years.
Have we figured out the mysteryof how we actually met?
Avi Wisnia (03:52):
No, I was looking back and I know that we
performed together at the TinAngel in Philly in 2014.
So we've obviously go backfurther than that.
Yeah, yeah, 10 years is it'skind of wild, but I think it
must have been something withyour involvement in Rock on
Philly, I feel like is maybewhere we first met, but I feel
(04:16):
like I always, you know, likeour circles were always circling
each other, so it was likebound to, we were bound to meet
eventually.
Jennifer Logue (04:26):
Especially with this similar trajectory from New
York to Philly, you know.
Avi Wisnia (04:30):
Completely, completely yeah.
Jennifer Logue (04:32):
That too.
But yes, and it's been such ajoy following your creative
journey and all the magicalroads it's taken you down,
seriously, really magical.
Avi Wisnia (04:43):
Some expected, some unexpected, you know.
Jennifer Logue (04:45):
That's what makes it magical.
I want to start at the verybeginning, because this podcast
we're exploring creativity fromall angles and exploring
artists' creative journeys andyour experience with creativity.
When did you first discoveryour love for music?
Avi Wisnia (05:05):
when did you first discover your love for music?
Well, there is a story thatgets told around the Wisnia
household that I can't rememberbecause I was, I guess, two or
three years old or even youngerthan that.
But my parents told me thatfrom the moment like I could I
had the the hand-eyecoordination to hold chopsticks,
(05:26):
that I would kind of like goaround and drum on everything
you know, just like makingrhythms with drumsticks, just
kind of like coming up withrhythm and making music just
with whatever was around, andthat I was going to the keyboard
(05:46):
and kind of, you know, foolingaround with the keys and really
trying to make out melodies fromas early as I could stand.
So I don't have a lot ofmemories of those kind of early
days, but I can't think of atime where I wasn't playing
piano and making music.
So I know it started early.
It's something I was reallydrawn to and I think the thing
(06:11):
that really started me ofknowing how to make music for
myself was when I started takingpiano lessons at five years old
.
Jennifer Logue (06:20):
Five years old.
Wow, you're such an incrediblepianist, yeah, and musician,
songwriter, and you recently gotPiano Player of the Year Award,
I think.
Avi Wisnia (06:33):
Yeah, From the Delaware Valley Public Media
Awards that awards the musicians.
It's local musicians andindustry people awarding the
local music scene.
So that felt I mean obviouslyit was a great honor and felt
really good because it wascoming from my peers and from
the community.
But also to be named, you know,best keyboard player, because
(06:56):
I've been playing since I wasfive.
It just felt so validating, Likeyou know I've been playing for
a long time and I've beenworking on my craft and finding
my voice on piano and it's whatI feel most comfortable writing
with and creating with.
So to kind of be recognized forthat felt, you know, just
really it was a really specialaward to win.
Jennifer Logue (07:17):
For sure Much deserved, and you know who
inspired you back in those earlydays as a musician and who
inspired you back in those earlydays as a musician?
Avi Wisnia (07:28):
Well, I remember being really drawn to a lot of
classic songwriters like BillyJoel and Elton John and Stevie
Wonder, carole King, and I think, looking back on it, I was
always drawn to a really goodmelody, like a really good hook,
something that I could singalong to or harmonize with, like
(07:49):
that's what really, that's whatreally drew me in.
And, of course, I was listeningto the radio and Debbie Gibson
and I was obsessed with thisband.
I don't know if you know them,they're called the Jets.
If you remember, in the 80sthere was this like group of I
think they were Hawaiianbrothers and sisters oh my God I
(08:13):
watched, or maybe they had aconcert in Hawaii that I used to
watch all the time.
Oh my gosh, but that kind of.
Do you know the Jets?
Jennifer Logue (08:20):
I don't, but now I'm going to have to go on a
YouTube dive.
Avi Wisnia (08:23):
Go back they definitely have a best of album
and you'll know there aredefinitely some radio hits in
there.
But it's kind of like thataccessibility, that music had
something you could really singalong with and sink your teeth
into.
But then there was also thereal musicianship of those
(08:45):
songwriters that I mentioned.
That made it not just a funsong to Ben Folds, because he
would do these things with thepiano.
That was pop and accessible,but there was like a little bit
of punk with it.
You know he would like throwhis bench at the piano or he
(09:15):
would incorporate classicalmusic and kind of Scott Joplin
stuff into his piano, justreally turning on its head.
What I thought of was a typicalsinger-songwriter who used the
piano, and sometimes that's whatyou need to open up your own
creativity.
You need somebody to show youthe way right.
What is possible, thatsomething different is possible
(09:37):
and that allows you to createsomething different.
Jennifer Logue (09:40):
Yeah, and it's so incredible when artists use
their art in a way where they'reable to reflect the entirety of
their life, their experience,like their influences, in unique
ways, and that's just.
That is like.
Avi Wisnia (09:53):
you know, that's what we all reach for, right the
combination and the confluenceof our influences, like we don't
come out of a black hole, wedon't create something from
nothing, we create somethingfrom everything, and so we are
(10:13):
the combination of all theinfluences, everyone who we
listen to, every piece of artthat you look at, every record
that you listen to, you know thepeople in your life, the people
that you love, the people thatyou love, the people that you
hate, everyone that talks to you.
You take all that in and youfilter it and you channel it and
it comes out in this uniquecombination that's only you,
(10:35):
that's only your voice, but it'sfiltered with all these people.
You know I have a song calledSomething New.
That's totally about that,because I was having this
songwriter's block about, youknow, putting out who.
I ended up incorporating littlebits and pieces of a lot of
(11:06):
musicians that had influenced meand it kind of became a tribute
to them and through theirinfluence I was able to write
this song, literally calledSomething New, but to create
something new out of that andyou pay tribute to the people
that came before you, but youfind a way to make it unique.
Jennifer Logue (11:25):
Yeah, and take your own experiences and, being
honest, like that I can't thinkof.
As an artist, I myself feelthat Like who am I?
We'll talk about this later.
But you know, when you,especially when you have a
hiatus from writing for a while,that insecurity, that like kind
of festers insecurity, thatlike kind of festers.
Avi Wisnia (11:45):
There's always doubt and self-reflection and it's
yeah, it's a twisty, windingroad we lead being a creative
people.
Jennifer Logue (11:54):
Yes, and then we fight through it.
There's a light at the end ofthe tunnel that other people
latch onto and relate to.
Like that song is so relatableand, like you know, the world
needs that, people need that.
Avi Wisnia (12:07):
Yeah, and you have to fight through it, because the
thing that I realized was thealternative to fighting through
it is you stop, you don't create, you don't put anything out,
you retreat.
And I think you know when, whenyou're a creative person, when
you know it's your passion, you,you, you feel it, you feel like
(12:28):
that I have to put somethingout into the world.
I just feel that drive, andthat's kind of what happened
with the song.
I was like I have to find a wayto just put something out
because, yes, there are allthese great people that came
before me, but I want toparticipate in that, I want to
be a voice in that conversation.
I think I do have something tosay, and sometimes the only way
(12:48):
to find it is to start puttingstuff out there and see if it
feels right or not, and then youchange and you mold with it.
But you've got to just put itout there to start.
Jennifer Logue (12:59):
To even start.
For sure, this is a veryopen-ended question, but this is
creative space, so I'll be.
How would you define creativity?
Avi Wisnia (13:11):
well, I think creativity is making something
that doesn't exist.
You know, know, and it's not,again, not creating something
out of nothing.
It's creating something out ofeverything, but creativity is
(13:31):
really that struggle to createsomething that doesn't exist
before and that's through yourfilter, or even if you're
copying something, it can't bean exact copy.
Jennifer Logue (13:45):
Like a cover song.
Avi Wisnia (13:46):
Yeah, a cover song even if you're a cover band and
you're trying to play it exactlythe same way that somebody else
did, it will never be exactlythe same because it's always
filtered through you and you'renot that other person and
something certainly I mean.
I love doing covers of people'ssongs and one of the most fun
(14:10):
things for me is taking it andreinterpreting it in a totally
different way.
You know, do a jazzy version ofthe Cure or a swanky lounge
version of TLC's no Scrubs.
Right, right right, or a swankylounge version of TLC is no
scrubs, you know, because it'sso fun.
You're also playing withexpectations, but there, you
know, there are such wonderfulpieces of art out there that
(14:34):
sometimes it's it's cool to playwith that, Something that's
kind of already already fullyformed.
But you know, and I, when Ithink of the word creativity, I
just think of playfulness, Like,creativity is the ability to
play and have fun, and that's alot of what I associate with
(14:56):
making music is playing withother people and bouncing ideas
off of each other, and youalways find something that
didn't exist before.
When you do that, you knowjamming, just getting in a room
and making up songs or playingother people's songs.
You know that inspiration, justthat fun.
(15:17):
It's having fun and again,making something new.
Jennifer Logue (15:21):
Oh my gosh, that's the best place for it to
come from.
It's just the joy of creativity.
I feel like the best thingscome out of that.
Avi Wisnia (15:30):
Yeah, creativity for me is joy and it should be
joyful Even if it's somethingpainful.
There's some joy in that.
Jennifer Logue (15:41):
For sure, especially when you're able to
take something painful and turnit into something beautiful that
other people can relate to andget them through their own
experiences, you know, that aresimilarly painful.
Avi Wisnia (15:55):
A hundred percent.
Jennifer Logue (15:57):
Where do you think creativity comes from?
Creativity comes from.
Avi Wisnia (16:00):
That's.
Where does it come from, youknow?
Uh, well, we could talk about,um, the existence of God or not,
but there is something.
There is something and my dad'sa rabbi.
I come from a long line ofclergy, right, so there's
definitely Judaism has somethingto say about that, I'm sure,
(16:23):
but there's somethingtranscendent about it and I
would I mean, you know, use theword, I would even use the word
divine, even though that mightmean different things to
different people.
But you know, I just think aboutanother song I wrote, called
Rabbit Hole, and this was backin my college days, before I was
(16:49):
performing out.
So this is a song I stillperform.
It's on my albums, but I hadstarted writing it a long time
before I was performing, and Ijust remember it was one night.
There was nothing special aboutthis night, but I just had
these ideas for these lines andI kept going to bed, getting in
(17:11):
bed, getting ready to go tosleep, and then I would like
jump up because I would.
Another line, another lyricwould come to me and I would
write it down.
I'd be like, okay, I got thatout of my system, I'll go back
to bed, and then another linewould come.
So it was almost like that,something divine, right?
Yeah, it was almost like am Idoing this, you know?
Jennifer Logue (17:33):
I dreamt a song once, like I woke up and I had
this chorus in my head, and itwas a good chorus.
Avi Wisnia (17:40):
Yeah, and I'm like all the next day at work.
Jennifer Logue (17:49):
I'm like oh my god, like I gotta record this
like right now but it's like youwrite it down, oh we recorded
it.
Okay it's out.
Nothing left to say um, but itit's.
Avi Wisnia (17:53):
I'm just like I didn't do that, yeah sometimes
you're like how can I takecredit for that?
but right it is you.
You know wherever it comes from.
Then there are some songs whereyou really have to sit down and
do the work and make a veryconscious effort to figure out
these chords, or I've been thisstory going on in my head.
(18:15):
How do I write it down?
Some things take a little moretime than others.
But yeah, I think that abilityto create is I can't think of
any other word for it other thandivine.
It's just something outside ofus or filtered through us that
we create something.
Jennifer Logue (18:35):
Yeah, I like to think of it as co-creating with
the divine.
We don't do it by ourselves,but we do have to make the
choice to obey and follow it.
Avi Wisnia (18:48):
Right, You've got to be open.
Right, You've got to be, opento receiving that inspiration
wherever it comes from.
Jennifer Logue (18:55):
Yeah, I got chills.
I got chills.
So let's get back tosongwriting.
What's your process like?
Do you have a typical processwhen you're writing a song?
We talked about a few ways inearlier bed to write.
Avi Wisnia (19:14):
You know you're, you're onto something that's
something special, but, um, Idon't have a typical process, Um
, but most usually when I'mwriting, it's the music comes
(19:35):
first.
For me, some people lead withlyrics or uh, um, or a story or
an idea.
For me it's usually the musicand a melody, so sometimes
there'll be a song.
Jennifer Logue (19:47):
Vocal melody or piano melody?
Do you hear like a voice or doyou hear piano?
Avi Wisnia (19:52):
That's a good question.
I think it's almost like I hearjust a line, and I usually play
it out on the piano.
Jennifer Logue (20:02):
Okay.
Avi Wisnia (20:04):
And then on.
Actually a lot of times whathappens is I'll start singing
gibberish over it and just likeI'm hearing syllables, you know.
And then from those syllables,what do those syllables sound
like, you know?
Oh, it sounds like you knowthis kind of phrase with actual
words to it.
(20:24):
But very often I'll just singgibberish and just see what
comes out, and that sometimeswill give me a guidepost of like
, where do the notes go?
What kind of feeling is it?
I usually operate from thefeeling.
What kind of feeling is it?
I usually operate from thefeeling.
What kind of feeling is thissong giving me?
(20:46):
And then sometimes it's notuntil weeks or months later
where the story settles intoplace or the, the, the actual
words fall into place, Like oh,this is what the song is about,
or this is what I want to evokein actual English and not
gibberish.
Jennifer Logue (21:02):
This is like blah blah, blah, Number two on
my phone.
Avi Wisnia (21:05):
Yeah yeah.
Sometimes that's what thesometimes that's what it is.
It's just totallyunintelligible.
You know, maybe one day I'llactually write a whole song of
gibberish that might.
You know.
That would be fun.
The, the gibberish hasn't stuckyet you know.
Jennifer Logue (21:21):
Oh my gosh, just like an album of everyone's
like song, like notes on theirapp on their iPhones.
Avi Wisnia (21:29):
Yeah, I'm sure there are some gems and a whole lot
of a whole lot of trash.
There's a whole lot of trashAlso.
That should not sound like athing.
There are some.
There are some gems that wediscard too, or at least we
don't give them the credit yet.
Jennifer Logue (21:43):
Yeah, Maybe they just had to come to
Philadelphia Song Circle.
Philly Song Circle.
Avi Wisnia (21:51):
Yeah, that's what we do.
We polish those gems.
Jennifer Logue (21:54):
Yeah, that's so cool.
Avi Wisnia (21:57):
That's another thing that's given me inspiration is
this song circle that I createdwith my friend, aaron Nathans,
where we, for nine years now,we've been bringing songs to
each other and we've gatheredour songwriter community.
It started as just a group ofus in my living room and we
(22:19):
slowly got more friends and wordof mouth and now we have over
400 members that come andparticipate and that are
connected to us through Facebook, and people come from all over,
you know, all over the area,and once a month we get together
and we workshop songs inprogress.
(22:40):
So we actually get to, you know, put these ideas that are not
finished, that are not complete,but we get to workshop them
with our peers and with otherpeople that understand the
creative process, and a lot ofmy most recent songs were
(23:04):
completed that way or at leastwere able to evolve because of
feedback that I got from myfriends and these people that I
trust in this community.
Jennifer Logue (23:14):
I have to say that my favorite songs that I've
done have been collaborations.
Yeah, like I'll come withsomething, but then when you
have someone else working withyou, it's just a completely
different creation and just itopens up so many more
possibilities and everyonebrings something different to
the table that you couldn't havedone all on your own, and
(23:36):
there's just something somagical and special about that.
Avi Wisnia (23:39):
Like Sometimes it's good to get out of your own head
and you, you need somebody elseto help you do that right.
Jennifer Logue (23:46):
yes, and to bring it back to joy.
You know, I think it's the joyis easier to channel when you're
with your collaborators andyour friends and stuff, you know
yeah, on your own left her owndevices for too long right um,
that's true, that's true.
Avi Wisnia (24:05):
You know, when you're left to your own devices,
sometimes you can bringyourself down, or you, you stop
yourself from, you start todoubt yourself.
All those things creep in right, and that's what other people
can do.
Can um can help pull us backout of that and keep us going.
Jennifer Logue (24:22):
We all need each other.
Avi Wisnia (24:24):
Yeah.
Jennifer Logue (24:24):
Yeah so.
Avi Wisnia (24:25):
Very true, making music is definitely a community
endeavor.
Jennifer Logue (24:34):
Now segueing a bit to your new album Catching
Leaves.
So it opens the title track.
The title track, catchingleaves, opens with these lyrics.
I spent the afternoon trying tocatch leaves before they fell
on the ground, couldn't predictwhere they'd go in the breeze,
got tired of chasing them down.
And then, at the end of thesong you sing, sat on a bench
(24:58):
and one fell on my knee like andwhen and when I heard that, I
was like oh man, I was like thatis life.
That is also the creativeprocess sometimes.
What was the inspiration foryou with that song?
Avi Wisnia (25:12):
Well, quite literally, I was um, I was
actually trying to bring a songto my songwriters group and
trying to come up with one and Iwould go to this park near my
house in South Philly.
(25:33):
It's Palumbo Park, this cutelittle pocket park next to the
Fleischer Art Building, and ithas this beautiful colorful
autumn mural painted on it andit was like a beautiful fall day
and I was sitting on a benchand I was literally just
watching the leaves and takingin nature and I find a lot of
(25:54):
inspiration from nature and thenatural world in general.
That works its way into mymusic.
You know, and I saw this, thispile of leaves, you know, kick
up with the wind and swirlaround in this beautiful chaos
and I said I want to write asong that sounds, the way that
that looks, and so I wasliterally writing about the
(26:16):
leaves.
But it's actually the song isvery much for me about.
It is about finding inspirationand trying to grab it, trying to
chase it, and sometimes that's,you know, like an impossible
(26:37):
feat.
Sometimes you have to wait forinspiration to come to you, and
that's what happened to mesitting on that bench that leaf
falling on my knee.
At the end is inspirationfinally coming to me?
You know, sometimes the thingsthat we want, we can run
ourselves ragged by chasing themdown, but it's really not until
(26:59):
we stop and take a breath andtake stock of where we are and
be present that life alsohappens and realizations can
happen.
Creativity can happen.
Sometimes we're rushing aroundtoo much, but back to Catching
Leaves.
Jennifer Logue (27:19):
It's been 10 years since your last
full-length release, so do youwant to talk about that?
A little bit Like what happenedin that time.
Avi Wisnia (27:28):
Yeah, I mean a part of relating to taking a pause
and taking a moment right andneeding to find your place and
find your way back to creativityand the things you love.
I was dealing with a lot ofgrief and a lot of loss in my
family and I really I don'tthink I realized it, for it took
(27:52):
me a while to realize it thatwhat I needed was to take a step
back.
I lost my brother, who was 33at the time.
He's a little older than me,and we were really close.
I grew up, we've always beenclose.
In fact he was the first personI ever really made music with.
He's the one that kind oftaught me how to make music with
(28:14):
people.
We would jam all the time andhe would always encourage me to
play music with him and heintroduced me to so many musical
artists that I loved and itinfluenced my musical taste and
so we were very close.
And when I lost him there wasjust this big hole in my life
(28:36):
and I felt very lost.
And because making music Ialways associated with him, it
was weird to think about makingmusic without him around anymore
.
And you know, grief is notlinear.
There are ups and downs and youknow like it's not a straight
(29:01):
trajectory down or up, you justhave to go day by day and see
how it goes.
And, as I said, it took me awhile to realize just how lost I
was and that I actually neededto take a step back from music
because it wasn't bringing mejoy anymore, and especially that
(29:27):
process of creating music andrecording.
You really have to focus andyou really have to want it and
know what you're going for, andI didn't.
I was really lost and I reallyhad to take care of myself first
(29:48):
and reevaluate what brought mejoy and try and find a way back
to it.
Jennifer Logue (30:00):
Your heart needed to heal.
Avi Wisnia (30:03):
Yeah, you know, yeah , and I didn't realize that, but
I needed that time.
And sometimes that is taking astep away from just to get
perspective, from just to getperspective.
And then there's also somethingthat I tend to do, which I
(30:25):
don't know if other people dothis too, but sometimes you take
a step back and you're withyourself just for too long and
then you get kind of stuck there.
Jennifer Logue (30:36):
I can relate to that Avi.
Avi Wisnia (30:38):
Right, taking a step away is good, but you can also
get stuck there.
Oh yeah.
Jennifer Logue (30:43):
Yeah.
Avi Wisnia (30:44):
And you need somebody else to pull you back
or something.
So that's where havingcommunity and friends and family
and a good therapist comes in.
But for me it was always makingmusic needed to like I really
needed to want to do it and ittook me a while to realize that
(31:05):
I wanted to do it again.
I had to find my way back tothat place of wanting to do it.
Jennifer Logue (31:11):
Yes, and part of you.
Coming back to music, you knowwe talked a little bit about
your grandfather, David, and howperforming with him kind of
brought your spark back a littlebit.
Avi Wisnia (31:26):
Yeah, this was really something I never
expected.
My grandfather was a cantor, sohe was a singer all of his life
and he was a singer when he wasa young child growing up in
Poland life.
And he was a singer when he wasa young child growing up in
Poland.
He was a singer later in lifein congregations in New Jersey
and Pennsylvania.
So I always knew him as asinger because I would go and
(31:49):
watch him sing and he had thisbig, booming, operatic voice and
everybody knew him as thesinger and that he was always on
stage in front of people and socharismatic and so confident.
And another part of mygrandfather's story is that
(32:10):
music saved his life in WorldWar II because he's a Holocaust
survivor and he used his voiceto kind of make himself useful
to the Nazis in a concentrationcamp and it's part of the reason
that he was able to survive andthen come to the United States.
So music literally saved hislife and in 2015, he invited me
(32:34):
to travel with him back toPoland.
So he was nearly 90 at thispoint in his life and he was
invited to go back tocommemorate the liberation of
the Auschwitz concentration campwhere he was.
So he was invited back by thegovernment of Poland to sing at
this place where these horrible,atrocious things happened to
(32:55):
him and, first of all, thestrength that he had to want to
go back there and to this place,your grandfather is a magical
human being.
Jennifer Logue (33:10):
I watched that Buzzfeed video again today,
which is a mistake because I wasbawling my eyes out.
But just sidebar, you have towatch it.
I'm sorry for interrupting, avi, please continue.
Avi Wisnia (33:25):
Yeah, and in this BuzzFeed video you get to hear
his voice and I'm so glad thatwe have some of that preserved
Him singing, but also himtelling his story, because it is
a remarkable and painful but animportant story.
And so he invited me to go backto Poland with him to help him
(33:47):
travel, because he was 90 yearsold, but also, as I had grown
into my own musician, we startedperforming together, so I would
go back and I would play pianofor him.
And, being in Poland, in thisplace where these horrible
things had happened to him andhe had overcome and found a way
(34:08):
to move forward after all thesehorrible things I mean his
family was killed, along with somany other people, and the
things that he saw and witnessedand experienced and then I went
and I saw him sing in fullvoice, knowing the life that he
had created and that he wasstill able to, not only to make
(34:31):
music, but that music was hisgateway to talking about things
that he wasn't able to talkabout or to express things that
he wasn't able to express inwords.
It was his way of communicatingto other people.
It was his way of bonding withme through music and teaching me
(34:56):
his music and when we were kindof arranging music together.
Yeah, and he really inspired methat, you know, and I heard it
in his voice that even thehorrible things that he couldn't
talk about, the pain was thereand what he went through was
there and some things.
(35:17):
I think I learned from him thatsome things you never, um, you
never move on from, you carrywith you, but you move forward
with them and and one of thosevehicles, one of those ways to
move forward is with music.
Learned that from him and Ifound my way back to music with
(35:43):
him because I ended upperforming with him and helping
kind of coax out his story andlearning some of his music and
wanting to keep his music alive.
So he would tell me his storyand we ended up performing more
together and ended up doingprograms where he would actually
talk about what happened to himand I was a part of that.
I was able to help him withthat and it was through music a
(36:05):
lot of it that would help propelthe story.
Jennifer Logue (36:09):
And then I mean it's just such a beautiful From
something so painful.
All these years later, you wereable to bond with your
grandfather in this way and totravel together and to create
something together that's makingan impact on so many people's
lives.
(36:29):
It's the most incredible story.
I mean I can't get enough ofthat video and the documentary
that got premiered a few monthsago at the Hot Docs Film
Festival how Saba kept singing.
I mean I'm not sure if you wantto talk about that at all, but
it's just so moving.
Avi Wisnia (36:50):
Yeah, I mean I'm so grateful that the documentary
exists, because the documentaryfollows the last time that we
went back to Poland together andit's the last trip that he ever
took.
He passed away last year in themiddle of COVID from not
COVID-related complications, butit was in the middle, when we
(37:17):
couldn't travel anywhere.
So the last thing that we didwhen the world was open was
travel to Poland and go and dothese performances where he grew
up, and do these performancesback at Auschwitz, and to have
all that recorded in thisdocumentary.
You hear his story and hismusic, but you also get to see
(37:48):
the two of us making musictogether and I get to see him
talk about what that means forhim, which is just really
meaningful for me and to knowthat that his voice will always
be preserved.
You know, when I was watchingthat documentary, like there, he
(38:09):
was like alive and singingagain.
You know and that's somethingbeautiful too that I feel like
as creative people, we createsomething and put it out into
the world and hopefully withvideos or albums or anything
(38:30):
digital that's out there forpeople to interact with, and
hopefully it will be long afterwe're gone.
But you know, that's our.
You can't help but change theworld by putting something out
there like that.
So you've got to put it out nomatter how painful You've got to
put it out.
Jennifer Logue (38:50):
No matter how hard it might be, because the
other side is so much better.
I just think your story withyour grandfather is like the
most beautiful thing I've heardin a long time, so I hope people
listening to the podcast get tolearn more about that too, and
you have a website dedicated tothis project.
(39:12):
Do you want to say the name ofthat in case people are
interested?
Avi Wisnia (39:15):
Yeah, the website is called my Polish Wisnia.
People are interested.
Yeah, the website is called myPolish Wisnia and you can find
it on.
It's a part of my website,aviwisniacom, because I started
blogging about our travelstogether, just making these
little posts, and I was soamazed at how impactful it
(39:44):
seemed to be to people, just theresponse that I got from these
posts of people following us andso interested in my
grandfather's story and what wewere doing and tracing his steps
and the music we were makingtogether.
So I knew I wanted to put allof these posts and kind of the
journey of the many trips thatwe took to Poland together.
So, yeah, that's on my websiteand I called it my Polish Wisnia
because my last name is Wisniaand in Polish, wisnia actually
(40:09):
means black cherry, so it's likea flavor.
So, everywhere we went, peoplewould give us these, like cherry
flavored desserts and vodka andall these things, and you know,
it was just such a part ofrediscovering that history.
(40:30):
And of course, in the Wisniafamily we love to eat, so
anything related is also veryimportant.
Very welcome, yep, yes, yes, sothere's a lot of eating.
A important, very welcome, yep,yes, yes, so there's a lot of
eating, a lot of music makingyeah, oh my gosh.
And I was able to record it allin this one place and the
documentary will hopefully becoming out soon.
(40:54):
We're just waiting fordistribution.
But yeah, it is done and it hasa lot of incredible support.
You mentioned Hillary andChelsea Clinton, who are
executive producing it, and Ijust know that my grandfather
would be so happy that his musicis out there and living on, and
(41:17):
it was also that findingsomething that I could be a part
of that was bigger than myself.
Jennifer Logue (41:23):
Yes.
Avi Wisnia (41:24):
That also helped me kind of find my way, finding my
way back to being like okay, youknow what, I'm ready to take a
look at some of my old songs anddust them off and start
thinking about putting newthings out there and eventually
finding the strength because itreally felt like that emotional
strength to, okay, I'm going toput out a new album, I'm ready
(41:45):
to put new stuff out in theworld, I'm ready to put my voice
back out there in the world.
And you know, it took thatwhole journey, all that time to
realize that it was the righttime.
Jennifer Logue (41:57):
Thank you for tuning in to this special rerun
of my conversation with AviWisnia, the very first guest on
Creative Space.
His reflections on creativity,joy and resilience continue to
inspire me, especially as howSaba Kept Singing heads into the
Emmys next week, which is socool.
(42:17):
If you haven't yet, I encourageyou to check out that
documentary, and also check outAvi's latest album, catching
Leaves, and dive deeper into hismusic at aviwizniacom.
I'd love to hear what resonatedwith you from this episode.
Feel free to reach out to me onsocial media at Jennifer Logue,
or leave a review on ApplePodcasts so more creatives can
(42:41):
discover creative space.
Thanks again for being part ofthis journey with me as we
revisit the best of season oneand two.
Stay tuned for more of the topepisodes of Creative Space
leading up to season three'spremiere on Sunday, october 20th
.
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode
of Creative Space, a podcastwhere we explore, learn and grow
in creativity together.
I'm your host, jennifer Logue,and as we gear up for Season 3,
yes, season three, I can'tbelieve it myself which is
launching on Sunday, october20th, we will be revisiting the
(00:31):
most popular episodes from thelast two seasons of Creative
Space, and today's guest holds avery special place in Creative
Space history, avi Wisnia, whowas my very first guest on the
show.
Avi is an incrediblesinger-songwriter who has
performed worldwide and sharedstages with legends like the
(00:54):
Roots and Annie DeFranco.
He was also recently featuredin the powerful documentary how
Saba Kept Singing alongside hisgrandfather, a Holocaust
survivor the film which isnominated, by the way, for an
Emmy next week.
So you'll have to tune in andcheer them on.
It's a moving tribute to familyresilience and the healing
(01:18):
power of music.
When I first recorded thisepisode, the podcast was still
in its early days and, to behonest, I didn't even plan on it
being a video podcast at thetime, and my walls were bare, I
didn't have proper lighting andI don't even think I was wearing
makeup.
(01:39):
But that's okay, Because theconversation with Avi was so
powerful so powerful that itmarked the beginning of what
Creative Space has grown intotoday, which is an incredible
platform for artists andcreatives from all backgrounds
to share their journeys andthoughts on creativity.
(02:01):
I am thrilled to have the chanceto revisit this captivating
interview.
In this episode, avi and Icover discovering his passion
for music at a young age.
The making of the Emmynominated.
How Saba Kept Singing andPerforming with His Grandfather
in Poland.
How music became a way for hisgrandfather to process trauma
(02:24):
and share his story.
The ups and downs of Avi's owncreative journey, including
dealing with loss and griefafter losing his brother.
The power of community andcollaboration in nurturing
creativity.
I hope you find Avi's story asinspiring as I did when we first
recorded it.
So, without further ado, here'smy conversation with Avi Wisnia.
(02:48):
Welcome to Creative Space, apodcast where we learn and grow
in creativity together.
For today's episode, we havethe pleasure of speaking with
singer-songwriter Avi Wisnia.
He's performed around the worldin venues like the Hammerstein
Ballroom in New York City andthe Kennedy Center in DC,
playing alongside artists likethe Roots and Ani DiFranco.
(03:09):
He was recently featured in adocumentary executive produced
by Hillary Rodham Clinton andChelsea Clinton alongside his
late grandfather David, his Saba, how Saba Kept Singing, his
Saba, how Saba kept singing.
And Avi just has a beautifulcreative life and I'm so excited
(03:29):
to chat with him as my firstactual official interview for
Creative Space Avi Welcome.
Avi Wisnia (03:34):
I'm honored.
Congratulations on kickstartingthe podcast and thanks for that
great introduction.
Happy to be with you.
Jennifer Logue (03:42):
Oh my gosh, this is so fun, Avi.
We've known each other for like10 years.
Have we figured out the mysteryof how we actually met?
Avi Wisnia (03:52):
No, I was looking back and I know that we
performed together at the TinAngel in Philly in 2014.
So we've obviously go backfurther than that.
Yeah, yeah, 10 years is it'skind of wild, but I think it
must have been something withyour involvement in Rock on
Philly, I feel like is maybewhere we first met, but I feel
(04:16):
like I always, you know, likeour circles were always circling
each other, so it was likebound to, we were bound to meet
eventually.
Jennifer Logue (04:26):
Especially with this similar trajectory from New
York to Philly, you know.
Avi Wisnia (04:30):
Completely, completely yeah.
Jennifer Logue (04:32):
That too.
But yes, and it's been such ajoy following your creative
journey and all the magicalroads it's taken you down,
seriously, really magical.
Avi Wisnia (04:43):
Some expected, some unexpected, you know.
Jennifer Logue (04:45):
That's what makes it magical.
I want to start at the verybeginning, because this podcast
we're exploring creativity fromall angles and exploring
artists' creative journeys andyour experience with creativity.
When did you first discoveryour love for music?
Avi Wisnia (05:05):
when did you first discover your love for music?
Well, there is a story thatgets told around the Wisnia
household that I can't rememberbecause I was, I guess, two or
three years old or even youngerthan that.
But my parents told me thatfrom the moment like I could I
had the the hand-eyecoordination to hold chopsticks,
(05:26):
that I would kind of like goaround and drum on everything
you know, just like makingrhythms with drumsticks, just
kind of like coming up withrhythm and making music just
with whatever was around, andthat I was going to the keyboard
(05:46):
and kind of, you know, foolingaround with the keys and really
trying to make out melodies fromas early as I could stand.
So I don't have a lot ofmemories of those kind of early
days, but I can't think of atime where I wasn't playing
piano and making music.
So I know it started early.
It's something I was reallydrawn to and I think the thing
(06:11):
that really started me ofknowing how to make music for
myself was when I started takingpiano lessons at five years old
.
Jennifer Logue (06:20):
Five years old.
Wow, you're such an incrediblepianist, yeah, and musician,
songwriter, and you recently gotPiano Player of the Year Award,
I think.
Avi Wisnia (06:33):
Yeah, From the Delaware Valley Public Media
Awards that awards the musicians.
It's local musicians andindustry people awarding the
local music scene.
So that felt I mean obviouslyit was a great honor and felt
really good because it wascoming from my peers and from
the community.
But also to be named, you know,best keyboard player, because
(06:56):
I've been playing since I wasfive.
It just felt so validating, Likeyou know I've been playing for
a long time and I've beenworking on my craft and finding
my voice on piano and it's whatI feel most comfortable writing
with and creating with.
So to kind of be recognized forthat felt, you know, just
really it was a really specialaward to win.
Jennifer Logue (07:17):
For sure Much deserved, and you know who
inspired you back in those earlydays as a musician and who
inspired you back in those earlydays as a musician?
Avi Wisnia (07:28):
Well, I remember being really drawn to a lot of
classic songwriters like BillyJoel and Elton John and Stevie
Wonder, carole King, and I think, looking back on it, I was
always drawn to a really goodmelody, like a really good hook,
something that I could singalong to or harmonize with, like
(07:49):
that's what really, that's whatreally drew me in.
And, of course, I was listeningto the radio and Debbie Gibson
and I was obsessed with thisband.
I don't know if you know them,they're called the Jets.
If you remember, in the 80sthere was this like group of I
think they were Hawaiianbrothers and sisters oh my God I
(08:13):
watched, or maybe they had aconcert in Hawaii that I used to
watch all the time.
Oh my gosh, but that kind of.
Do you know the Jets?
Jennifer Logue (08:20):
I don't, but now I'm going to have to go on a
YouTube dive.
Avi Wisnia (08:23):
Go back they definitely have a best of album
and you'll know there aredefinitely some radio hits in
there.
But it's kind of like thataccessibility, that music had
something you could really singalong with and sink your teeth
into.
But then there was also thereal musicianship of those
(08:45):
songwriters that I mentioned.
That made it not just a funsong to Ben Folds, because he
would do these things with thepiano.
That was pop and accessible,but there was like a little bit
of punk with it.
You know he would like throwhis bench at the piano or he
(09:15):
would incorporate classicalmusic and kind of Scott Joplin
stuff into his piano, justreally turning on its head.
What I thought of was a typicalsinger-songwriter who used the
piano, and sometimes that's whatyou need to open up your own
creativity.
You need somebody to show youthe way right.
What is possible, thatsomething different is possible
(09:37):
and that allows you to createsomething different.
Jennifer Logue (09:40):
Yeah, and it's so incredible when artists use
their art in a way where they'reable to reflect the entirety of
their life, their experience,like their influences, in unique
ways, and that's just.
That is like.
Avi Wisnia (09:53):
you know, that's what we all reach for, right the
combination and the confluenceof our influences, like we don't
come out of a black hole, wedon't create something from
nothing, we create somethingfrom everything, and so we are
(10:13):
the combination of all theinfluences, everyone who we
listen to, every piece of artthat you look at, every record
that you listen to, you know thepeople in your life, the people
that you love, the people thatyou love, the people that you
hate, everyone that talks to you.
You take all that in and youfilter it and you channel it and
it comes out in this uniquecombination that's only you,
(10:35):
that's only your voice, but it'sfiltered with all these people.
You know I have a song calledSomething New.
That's totally about that,because I was having this
songwriter's block about, youknow, putting out who.
I ended up incorporating littlebits and pieces of a lot of
(11:06):
musicians that had influenced meand it kind of became a tribute
to them and through theirinfluence I was able to write
this song, literally calledSomething New, but to create
something new out of that andyou pay tribute to the people
that came before you, but youfind a way to make it unique.
Jennifer Logue (11:25):
Yeah, and take your own experiences and, being
honest, like that I can't thinkof.
As an artist, I myself feelthat Like who am I?
We'll talk about this later.
But you know, when you,especially when you have a
hiatus from writing for a while,that insecurity, that like kind
of festers insecurity, thatlike kind of festers.
Avi Wisnia (11:45):
There's always doubt and self-reflection and it's
yeah, it's a twisty, windingroad we lead being a creative
people.
Jennifer Logue (11:54):
Yes, and then we fight through it.
There's a light at the end ofthe tunnel that other people
latch onto and relate to.
Like that song is so relatableand, like you know, the world
needs that, people need that.
Avi Wisnia (12:07):
Yeah, and you have to fight through it, because the
thing that I realized was thealternative to fighting through
it is you stop, you don't create, you don't put anything out,
you retreat.
And I think you know when, whenyou're a creative person, when
you know it's your passion, you,you, you feel it, you feel like
(12:28):
that I have to put somethingout into the world.
I just feel that drive, andthat's kind of what happened
with the song.
I was like I have to find a wayto just put something out
because, yes, there are allthese great people that came
before me, but I want toparticipate in that, I want to
be a voice in that conversation.
I think I do have something tosay, and sometimes the only way
(12:48):
to find it is to start puttingstuff out there and see if it
feels right or not, and then youchange and you mold with it.
But you've got to just put itout there to start.
Jennifer Logue (12:59):
To even start.
For sure, this is a veryopen-ended question, but this is
creative space, so I'll be.
How would you define creativity?
Avi Wisnia (13:11):
well, I think creativity is making something
that doesn't exist.
You know, know, and it's not,again, not creating something
out of nothing.
It's creating something out ofeverything, but creativity is
(13:31):
really that struggle to createsomething that doesn't exist
before and that's through yourfilter, or even if you're
copying something, it can't bean exact copy.
Jennifer Logue (13:45):
Like a cover song.
Avi Wisnia (13:46):
Yeah, a cover song even if you're a cover band and
you're trying to play it exactlythe same way that somebody else
did, it will never be exactlythe same because it's always
filtered through you and you'renot that other person and
something certainly I mean.
I love doing covers of people'ssongs and one of the most fun
(14:10):
things for me is taking it andreinterpreting it in a totally
different way.
You know, do a jazzy version ofthe Cure or a swanky lounge
version of TLC's no Scrubs.
Right, right right, or a swankylounge version of TLC is no
scrubs, you know, because it'sso fun.
You're also playing withexpectations, but there, you
know, there are such wonderfulpieces of art out there that
(14:34):
sometimes it's it's cool to playwith that, Something that's
kind of already already fullyformed.
But you know, and I, when Ithink of the word creativity, I
just think of playfulness, Like,creativity is the ability to
play and have fun, and that's alot of what I associate with
(14:56):
making music is playing withother people and bouncing ideas
off of each other, and youalways find something that
didn't exist before.
When you do that, you knowjamming, just getting in a room
and making up songs or playingother people's songs.
You know that inspiration, justthat fun.
(15:17):
It's having fun and again,making something new.
Jennifer Logue (15:21):
Oh my gosh, that's the best place for it to
come from.
It's just the joy of creativity.
I feel like the best thingscome out of that.
Avi Wisnia (15:30):
Yeah, creativity for me is joy and it should be
joyful Even if it's somethingpainful.
There's some joy in that.
Jennifer Logue (15:41):
For sure, especially when you're able to
take something painful and turnit into something beautiful that
other people can relate to andget them through their own
experiences, you know, that aresimilarly painful.
Avi Wisnia (15:55):
A hundred percent.
Jennifer Logue (15:57):
Where do you think creativity comes from?
Creativity comes from.
Avi Wisnia (16:00):
That's.
Where does it come from, youknow?
Uh, well, we could talk about,um, the existence of God or not,
but there is something.
There is something and my dad'sa rabbi.
I come from a long line ofclergy, right, so there's
definitely Judaism has somethingto say about that, I'm sure,
(16:23):
but there's somethingtranscendent about it and I
would I mean, you know, use theword, I would even use the word
divine, even though that mightmean different things to
different people.
But you know, I just think aboutanother song I wrote, called
Rabbit Hole, and this was backin my college days, before I was
(16:49):
performing out.
So this is a song I stillperform.
It's on my albums, but I hadstarted writing it a long time
before I was performing, and Ijust remember it was one night.
There was nothing special aboutthis night, but I just had
these ideas for these lines andI kept going to bed, getting in
(17:11):
bed, getting ready to go tosleep, and then I would like
jump up because I would.
Another line, another lyricwould come to me and I would
write it down.
I'd be like, okay, I got thatout of my system, I'll go back
to bed, and then another linewould come.
So it was almost like that,something divine, right?
Yeah, it was almost like am Idoing this, you know?
Jennifer Logue (17:33):
I dreamt a song once, like I woke up and I had
this chorus in my head, and itwas a good chorus.
Avi Wisnia (17:40):
Yeah, and I'm like all the next day at work.
Jennifer Logue (17:49):
I'm like oh my god, like I gotta record this
like right now but it's like youwrite it down, oh we recorded
it.
Okay it's out.
Nothing left to say um, but itit's.
Avi Wisnia (17:53):
I'm just like I didn't do that, yeah sometimes
you're like how can I takecredit for that?
but right it is you.
You know wherever it comes from.
Then there are some songs whereyou really have to sit down and
do the work and make a veryconscious effort to figure out
these chords, or I've been thisstory going on in my head.
(18:15):
How do I write it down?
Some things take a little moretime than others.
But yeah, I think that abilityto create is I can't think of
any other word for it other thandivine.
It's just something outside ofus or filtered through us that
we create something.
Jennifer Logue (18:35):
Yeah, I like to think of it as co-creating with
the divine.
We don't do it by ourselves,but we do have to make the
choice to obey and follow it.
Avi Wisnia (18:48):
Right, You've got to be open.
Right, You've got to be, opento receiving that inspiration
wherever it comes from.
Jennifer Logue (18:55):
Yeah, I got chills.
I got chills.
So let's get back tosongwriting.
What's your process like?
Do you have a typical processwhen you're writing a song?
We talked about a few ways inearlier bed to write.
Avi Wisnia (19:14):
You know you're, you're onto something that's
something special, but, um, Idon't have a typical process, Um
, but most usually when I'mwriting, it's the music comes
(19:35):
first.
For me, some people lead withlyrics or uh, um, or a story or
an idea.
For me it's usually the musicand a melody, so sometimes
there'll be a song.
Jennifer Logue (19:47):
Vocal melody or piano melody?
Do you hear like a voice or doyou hear piano?
Avi Wisnia (19:52):
That's a good question.
I think it's almost like I hearjust a line, and I usually play
it out on the piano.
Jennifer Logue (20:02):
Okay.
Avi Wisnia (20:04):
And then on.
Actually a lot of times whathappens is I'll start singing
gibberish over it and just likeI'm hearing syllables, you know.
And then from those syllables,what do those syllables sound
like, you know?
Oh, it sounds like you knowthis kind of phrase with actual
words to it.
(20:24):
But very often I'll just singgibberish and just see what
comes out, and that sometimeswill give me a guidepost of like
, where do the notes go?
What kind of feeling is it?
I usually operate from thefeeling.
What kind of feeling is it?
I usually operate from thefeeling.
What kind of feeling is thissong giving me?
(20:46):
And then sometimes it's notuntil weeks or months later
where the story settles intoplace or the, the, the actual
words fall into place, Like oh,this is what the song is about,
or this is what I want to evokein actual English and not
gibberish.
Jennifer Logue (21:02):
This is like blah blah, blah, Number two on
my phone.
Avi Wisnia (21:05):
Yeah yeah.
Sometimes that's what thesometimes that's what it is.
It's just totallyunintelligible.
You know, maybe one day I'llactually write a whole song of
gibberish that might.
You know.
That would be fun.
The, the gibberish hasn't stuckyet you know.
Jennifer Logue (21:21):
Oh my gosh, just like an album of everyone's
like song, like notes on theirapp on their iPhones.
Avi Wisnia (21:29):
Yeah, I'm sure there are some gems and a whole lot
of a whole lot of trash.
There's a whole lot of trashAlso.
That should not sound like athing.
There are some.
There are some gems that wediscard too, or at least we
don't give them the credit yet.
Jennifer Logue (21:43):
Yeah, Maybe they just had to come to
Philadelphia Song Circle.
Philly Song Circle.
Avi Wisnia (21:51):
Yeah, that's what we do.
We polish those gems.
Jennifer Logue (21:54):
Yeah, that's so cool.
Avi Wisnia (21:57):
That's another thing that's given me inspiration is
this song circle that I createdwith my friend, aaron Nathans,
where we, for nine years now,we've been bringing songs to
each other and we've gatheredour songwriter community.
It started as just a group ofus in my living room and we
(22:19):
slowly got more friends and wordof mouth and now we have over
400 members that come andparticipate and that are
connected to us through Facebook, and people come from all over,
you know, all over the area,and once a month we get together
and we workshop songs inprogress.
(22:40):
So we actually get to, you know, put these ideas that are not
finished, that are not complete,but we get to workshop them
with our peers and with otherpeople that understand the
creative process, and a lot ofmy most recent songs were
(23:04):
completed that way or at leastwere able to evolve because of
feedback that I got from myfriends and these people that I
trust in this community.
Jennifer Logue (23:14):
I have to say that my favorite songs that I've
done have been collaborations.
Yeah, like I'll come withsomething, but then when you
have someone else working withyou, it's just a completely
different creation and just itopens up so many more
possibilities and everyonebrings something different to
the table that you couldn't havedone all on your own, and
(23:36):
there's just something somagical and special about that.
Avi Wisnia (23:39):
Like Sometimes it's good to get out of your own head
and you, you need somebody elseto help you do that right.
Jennifer Logue (23:46):
yes, and to bring it back to joy.
You know, I think it's the joyis easier to channel when you're
with your collaborators andyour friends and stuff, you know
yeah, on your own left her owndevices for too long right um,
that's true, that's true.
Avi Wisnia (24:05):
You know, when you're left to your own devices,
sometimes you can bringyourself down, or you, you stop
yourself from, you start todoubt yourself.
All those things creep in right, and that's what other people
can do.
Can um can help pull us backout of that and keep us going.
Jennifer Logue (24:22):
We all need each other.
Avi Wisnia (24:24):
Yeah.
Jennifer Logue (24:24):
Yeah so.
Avi Wisnia (24:25):
Very true, making music is definitely a community
endeavor.
Jennifer Logue (24:34):
Now segueing a bit to your new album Catching
Leaves.
So it opens the title track.
The title track, catchingleaves, opens with these lyrics.
I spent the afternoon trying tocatch leaves before they fell
on the ground, couldn't predictwhere they'd go in the breeze,
got tired of chasing them down.
And then, at the end of thesong you sing, sat on a bench
(24:58):
and one fell on my knee like andwhen and when I heard that, I
was like oh man, I was like thatis life.
That is also the creativeprocess sometimes.
What was the inspiration foryou with that song?
Avi Wisnia (25:12):
Well, quite literally, I was um, I was
actually trying to bring a songto my songwriters group and
trying to come up with one and Iwould go to this park near my
house in South Philly.
(25:33):
It's Palumbo Park, this cutelittle pocket park next to the
Fleischer Art Building, and ithas this beautiful colorful
autumn mural painted on it andit was like a beautiful fall day
and I was sitting on a benchand I was literally just
watching the leaves and takingin nature and I find a lot of
(25:54):
inspiration from nature and thenatural world in general.
That works its way into mymusic.
You know, and I saw this, thispile of leaves, you know, kick
up with the wind and swirlaround in this beautiful chaos
and I said I want to write asong that sounds, the way that
that looks, and so I wasliterally writing about the
(26:16):
leaves.
But it's actually the song isvery much for me about.
It is about finding inspirationand trying to grab it, trying to
chase it, and sometimes that's,you know, like an impossible
(26:37):
feat.
Sometimes you have to wait forinspiration to come to you, and
that's what happened to mesitting on that bench that leaf
falling on my knee.
At the end is inspirationfinally coming to me?
You know, sometimes the thingsthat we want, we can run
ourselves ragged by chasing themdown, but it's really not until
(26:59):
we stop and take a breath andtake stock of where we are and
be present that life alsohappens and realizations can
happen.
Creativity can happen.
Sometimes we're rushing aroundtoo much, but back to Catching
Leaves.
Jennifer Logue (27:19):
It's been 10 years since your last
full-length release, so do youwant to talk about that?
A little bit Like what happenedin that time.
Avi Wisnia (27:28):
Yeah, I mean a part of relating to taking a pause
and taking a moment right andneeding to find your place and
find your way back to creativityand the things you love.
I was dealing with a lot ofgrief and a lot of loss in my
family and I really I don'tthink I realized it, for it took
(27:52):
me a while to realize it thatwhat I needed was to take a step
back.
I lost my brother, who was 33at the time.
He's a little older than me,and we were really close.
I grew up, we've always beenclose.
In fact he was the first personI ever really made music with.
He's the one that kind oftaught me how to make music with
(28:14):
people.
We would jam all the time andhe would always encourage me to
play music with him and heintroduced me to so many musical
artists that I loved and itinfluenced my musical taste and
so we were very close.
And when I lost him there wasjust this big hole in my life
(28:36):
and I felt very lost.
And because making music Ialways associated with him, it
was weird to think about makingmusic without him around anymore
.
And you know, grief is notlinear.
There are ups and downs and youknow like it's not a straight
(29:01):
trajectory down or up, you justhave to go day by day and see
how it goes.
And, as I said, it took me awhile to realize just how lost I
was and that I actually neededto take a step back from music
because it wasn't bringing mejoy anymore, and especially that
(29:27):
process of creating music andrecording.
You really have to focus andyou really have to want it and
know what you're going for, andI didn't.
I was really lost and I reallyhad to take care of myself first
(29:48):
and reevaluate what brought mejoy and try and find a way back
to it.
Jennifer Logue (30:00):
Your heart needed to heal.
Avi Wisnia (30:03):
Yeah, you know, yeah , and I didn't realize that, but
I needed that time.
And sometimes that is taking astep away from just to get
perspective, from just to getperspective.
And then there's also somethingthat I tend to do, which I
(30:25):
don't know if other people dothis too, but sometimes you take
a step back and you're withyourself just for too long and
then you get kind of stuck there.
Jennifer Logue (30:36):
I can relate to that Avi.
Avi Wisnia (30:38):
Right, taking a step away is good, but you can also
get stuck there.
Oh yeah.
Jennifer Logue (30:43):
Yeah.
Avi Wisnia (30:44):
And you need somebody else to pull you back
or something.
So that's where havingcommunity and friends and family
and a good therapist comes in.
But for me it was always makingmusic needed to like I really
needed to want to do it and ittook me a while to realize that
(31:05):
I wanted to do it again.
I had to find my way back tothat place of wanting to do it.
Jennifer Logue (31:11):
Yes, and part of you.
Coming back to music, you knowwe talked a little bit about
your grandfather, David, and howperforming with him kind of
brought your spark back a littlebit.
Avi Wisnia (31:26):
Yeah, this was really something I never
expected.
My grandfather was a cantor, sohe was a singer all of his life
and he was a singer when he wasa young child growing up in
Poland life.
And he was a singer when he wasa young child growing up in
Poland.
He was a singer later in lifein congregations in New Jersey
and Pennsylvania.
So I always knew him as asinger because I would go and
(31:49):
watch him sing and he had thisbig, booming, operatic voice and
everybody knew him as thesinger and that he was always on
stage in front of people and socharismatic and so confident.
And another part of mygrandfather's story is that
(32:10):
music saved his life in WorldWar II because he's a Holocaust
survivor and he used his voiceto kind of make himself useful
to the Nazis in a concentrationcamp and it's part of the reason
that he was able to survive andthen come to the United States.
So music literally saved hislife and in 2015, he invited me
(32:34):
to travel with him back toPoland.
So he was nearly 90 at thispoint in his life and he was
invited to go back tocommemorate the liberation of
the Auschwitz concentration campwhere he was.
So he was invited back by thegovernment of Poland to sing at
this place where these horrible,atrocious things happened to
(32:55):
him and, first of all, thestrength that he had to want to
go back there and to this place,your grandfather is a magical
human being.
Jennifer Logue (33:10):
I watched that Buzzfeed video again today,
which is a mistake because I wasbawling my eyes out.
But just sidebar, you have towatch it.
I'm sorry for interrupting, avi, please continue.
Avi Wisnia (33:25):
Yeah, and in this BuzzFeed video you get to hear
his voice and I'm so glad thatwe have some of that preserved
Him singing, but also himtelling his story, because it is
a remarkable and painful but animportant story.
And so he invited me to go backto Poland with him to help him
(33:47):
travel, because he was 90 yearsold, but also, as I had grown
into my own musician, we startedperforming together, so I would
go back and I would play pianofor him.
And, being in Poland, in thisplace where these horrible
things had happened to him andhe had overcome and found a way
(34:08):
to move forward after all thesehorrible things I mean his
family was killed, along with somany other people, and the
things that he saw and witnessedand experienced and then I went
and I saw him sing in fullvoice, knowing the life that he
had created and that he wasstill able to, not only to make
(34:31):
music, but that music was hisgateway to talking about things
that he wasn't able to talkabout or to express things that
he wasn't able to express inwords.
It was his way of communicatingto other people.
It was his way of bonding withme through music and teaching me
(34:56):
his music and when we were kindof arranging music together.
Yeah, and he really inspired methat, you know, and I heard it
in his voice that even thehorrible things that he couldn't
talk about, the pain was thereand what he went through was
there and some things.
(35:17):
I think I learned from him thatsome things you never, um, you
never move on from, you carrywith you, but you move forward
with them and and one of thosevehicles, one of those ways to
move forward is with music.
Learned that from him and Ifound my way back to music with
(35:43):
him because I ended upperforming with him and helping
kind of coax out his story andlearning some of his music and
wanting to keep his music alive.
So he would tell me his storyand we ended up performing more
together and ended up doingprograms where he would actually
talk about what happened to himand I was a part of that.
I was able to help him withthat and it was through music a
(36:05):
lot of it that would help propelthe story.
Jennifer Logue (36:09):
And then I mean it's just such a beautiful From
something so painful.
All these years later, you wereable to bond with your
grandfather in this way and totravel together and to create
something together that's makingan impact on so many people's
lives.
(36:29):
It's the most incredible story.
I mean I can't get enough ofthat video and the documentary
that got premiered a few monthsago at the Hot Docs Film
Festival how Saba kept singing.
I mean I'm not sure if you wantto talk about that at all, but
it's just so moving.
Avi Wisnia (36:50):
Yeah, I mean I'm so grateful that the documentary
exists, because the documentaryfollows the last time that we
went back to Poland together andit's the last trip that he ever
took.
He passed away last year in themiddle of COVID from not
COVID-related complications, butit was in the middle, when we
(37:17):
couldn't travel anywhere.
So the last thing that we didwhen the world was open was
travel to Poland and go and dothese performances where he grew
up, and do these performancesback at Auschwitz, and to have
all that recorded in thisdocumentary.
You hear his story and hismusic, but you also get to see
(37:48):
the two of us making musictogether and I get to see him
talk about what that means forhim, which is just really
meaningful for me and to knowthat that his voice will always
be preserved.
You know, when I was watchingthat documentary, like there, he
(38:09):
was like alive and singingagain.
You know and that's somethingbeautiful too that I feel like
as creative people, we createsomething and put it out into
the world and hopefully withvideos or albums or anything
(38:30):
digital that's out there forpeople to interact with, and
hopefully it will be long afterwe're gone.
But you know, that's our.
You can't help but change theworld by putting something out
there like that.
So you've got to put it out nomatter how painful You've got to
put it out.
Jennifer Logue (38:50):
No matter how hard it might be, because the
other side is so much better.
I just think your story withyour grandfather is like the
most beautiful thing I've heardin a long time, so I hope people
listening to the podcast get tolearn more about that too, and
you have a website dedicated tothis project.
(39:12):
Do you want to say the name ofthat in case people are
interested?
Avi Wisnia (39:15):
Yeah, the website is called my Polish Wisnia.
People are interested.
Yeah, the website is called myPolish Wisnia and you can find
it on.
It's a part of my website,aviwisniacom, because I started
blogging about our travelstogether, just making these
little posts, and I was soamazed at how impactful it
(39:44):
seemed to be to people, just theresponse that I got from these
posts of people following us andso interested in my
grandfather's story and what wewere doing and tracing his steps
and the music we were makingtogether.
So I knew I wanted to put allof these posts and kind of the
journey of the many trips thatwe took to Poland together.
So, yeah, that's on my websiteand I called it my Polish Wisnia
because my last name is Wisniaand in Polish, wisnia actually
(40:09):
means black cherry, so it's likea flavor.
So, everywhere we went, peoplewould give us these, like cherry
flavored desserts and vodka andall these things, and you know,
it was just such a part ofrediscovering that history.
(40:30):
And of course, in the Wisniafamily we love to eat, so
anything related is also veryimportant.
Very welcome, yep, yes, yes, sothere's a lot of eating.
A important, very welcome, yep,yes, yes, so there's a lot of
eating, a lot of music makingyeah, oh my gosh.
And I was able to record it allin this one place and the
documentary will hopefully becoming out soon.
(40:54):
We're just waiting fordistribution.
But yeah, it is done and it hasa lot of incredible support.
You mentioned Hillary andChelsea Clinton, who are
executive producing it, and Ijust know that my grandfather
would be so happy that his musicis out there and living on, and
(41:17):
it was also that findingsomething that I could be a part
of that was bigger than myself.
Jennifer Logue (41:23):
Yes.
Avi Wisnia (41:24):
That also helped me kind of find my way, finding my
way back to being like okay, youknow what, I'm ready to take a
look at some of my old songs anddust them off and start
thinking about putting newthings out there and eventually
finding the strength because itreally felt like that emotional
strength to, okay, I'm going toput out a new album, I'm ready
(41:45):
to put new stuff out in theworld, I'm ready to put my voice
back out there in the world.
And you know, it took thatwhole journey, all that time to
realize that it was the righttime.
Jennifer Logue (41:57):
Thank you for tuning in to this special rerun
of my conversation with AviWisnia, the very first guest on
Creative Space.
His reflections on creativity,joy and resilience continue to
inspire me, especially as howSaba Kept Singing heads into the
Emmys next week, which is socool.
(42:17):
If you haven't yet, I encourageyou to check out that
documentary, and also check outAvi's latest album, catching
Leaves, and dive deeper into hismusic at aviwizniacom.
I'd love to hear what resonatedwith you from this episode.
Feel free to reach out to me onsocial media at Jennifer Logue,
or leave a review on ApplePodcasts so more creatives can
(42:41):
discover creative space.
Thanks again for being part ofthis journey with me as we
revisit the best of season oneand two.
Stay tuned for more of the topepisodes of Creative Space
leading up to season three'spremiere on Sunday, october 20th
.
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