Betting on Your Talent: Tony Savant’s Roadmap for Aspiring Actors

Episode Transcript
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Jennifer Logue (00:10):
Hello everyone and welcome to Creative Space, a
podcast where we explore, learnand grow in creativity together
.
I'm your host, jennifer Logue,and I'm so excited to be
counting down to season three,which is launching on October
20th, by looking back at some ofthe most popular and impactful

(00:30):
episodes from seasons one andtwo.
Today's replay features one ofmy personal favorites, tony
Savant, the renowned actingteacher and director of
Playhouse West Philadelphia.
Tony has trained some of themost successful actors in the
industry and shared so manyinspiring insights during our

(00:51):
conversation about life,creativity and following your
passion.
If you're tuning in for thefirst time, you're in for a real
treat, and if you've heard thisepisode before, I hope you find
new inspiration in it.
Enjoy, hello everyone, andwelcome to another episode of
Creative Space, a podcast wherewe explore, learn and grow in

(01:14):
creativity together.
I'm your host, jennifer Logue,and today we have the pleasure
of chatting with Tony Savant,one of the most respected acting
teachers in the country and thedirector of Playhouse West
Philadelphia.
He's helped train some of themost successful actors working
in the industry today, includingAshley Judd, scott Kahn, jim

(01:37):
Parikh, jean Elie, charismaCarpenter and many, many more.
Along with Robert Carnegie andJeff Goldblum, tony is one of
only a handful of teachers toobserve Sandy Meisner teach.
After his move to Los Angeles,tony also served as the artistic
director of the Playhouse WestTheater Company in LA for over

(02:00):
20 years.
Tony created, directed andco-wrote the critically
acclaimed production WelcomeHome Soldier, which ran for 25
years in Los Angeles and, for atime, was the longest running
drama in the country.
In August of 2012, tony movedfrom Los Angeles and founded the
East Coast branch of PlayhouseWest Playhouse West Philadelphia

(02:23):
, where he now trains a newgeneration of actors.
I am beyond honored to have himon the show.
Welcome to Creative Space, tony.

Tony Savant (02:31):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I feel privileged to be here.

Awesome, thank you.
I mean, I started studying withyou in 2018, and it was just
such a life-changing experiencefor me as an artist, and so
really probably one of thebiggest moments for me in my
creative journey so far wasstudying at Playhouse West.

Oh, that's nice to hear.

Total game-changing experience.
So anyway, I'm not sure if yougot a chance to listen to the
podcast, but it's all about.

I listen to a lot of podcasts.
Honestly, I listen to a part ofone that you had sent me.
I think you sent me a link toone.
I listened to that, but I am ahuge podcast.
I've got a bunch of podcasts Ilisten to on a regular basis.
I need to listen to yours more.

Oh gosh Well yeah, there's so many, but where
are you calling from today?

I'm at home.
I'm home in my office here, myold house, lovely In Pottstown,
pennsylvania, yeah.

Cool, and how was your break?

Oh, it's been nice.
I mean, I don't get many breaksduring the year One little week
in the summertime and then thisweek week and a half I get at
Christmas and it's nice, it'snice.

So for someone with as busy of a schedule as
you have, what do you do torecharge?

To recharge?
I don't know.
To be honest, I've never reallybeen a person who needed to
recharge.
I love life.
I am constantly on the go.
I like to work, I like to dothings.
I like to always be doingsomething.

(04:25):
Honestly, I look forward tothose moments in life where I
can be completely bored.
I'm really, really never bored.
I can sit out on my porch on asummer afternoon after cutting
the grass and working in theyard all day and drink a cup of
coffee or iced tea and just lookoff my front porch into the

(04:49):
woods and I'm perfectly happy.
But otherwise, I mean, I liketo read, I like to write, I like
to watch movies, I lovelistening to podcasts, I love to
learn.
I'm constantly involved in, in,in, in, engaged in learning new
things.
I think learning new things, ifyou say what recharges me,

(05:10):
that's what recharges me.
Like, I love to be inspired byother people, creative people,
anybody.
I love to meet new people andlearn new things.
You can learn something fromeveryone you meet.
So I love learning about whatother people do.

(05:33):
Otherwise, yeah, I like to takewalks and work out and go play
with my grandson and I love towork around my house and work in
the yard.
I'm crazy, I'm nuts like that,like I could spend all day long
outside pulling weeds andchopping wood and I absolutely
love that stuff.

A great Meisner activity, right, yeah, Bring
that on stage.
So it's all.
They're all active things.
I feel like from acting.
It's made me appreciate momentsmore in my own life yeah yeah,
like quiet time, is that whatyou mean?

or just uh, even mundane things, mundane things.
I you know I love mundanethings.
I that's why I say I'm neverbored.
I never have a moment ofboredom.
I'm one of those strange people.
I don't.
I can't remember the last timein my whole life I was ever
bored, not even as a kid.

That's awesome.
I was actually just taking thelaundry out earlier today and I
was thinking to myself you know,there's only one person in the
world who could take laundry outlike I do, like in this way,
like another character wouldtake out differently because
they're thinking of differentthings, they're in a different
situation, different habits,anyway.

Yeah, I got some preparing taxes and doing money
stuff or or booking.
That is boring to me.
I hate that stuff.
I'd rather do just aboutanything in the world or filling
out forms.
There's probably nothing I hateworse than that.

So yeah, so active things Totally feel you
on that yes, active in life.

I can sit on the couch and watch college football
all day and never be bored.

Really, I didn't realize you were such a
football fan.

Oh yeah, huge, huge sports fan.
Yeah, huge sports fan.

Cool, I learned something new already.
Look at that.
So, on Creative Space, I liketo go back to the very beginning
of a person's life.
Where did you grow up and whoare your earliest inspirations?

you grow up and who are your earliest inspirations?
Well, I was born in Lebanon,Pennsylvania.
When I was, I moved around alittle bit.
Finally, where I grew up mainlyis in the Pottstown area.
I grew up in Glenmore and wentto Owen J Roberts High School in
the Pottstown area.
That's where I grew up mostly.
Then, yeah, went to Penn State,you know, went to college there

(08:12):
at Penn State and we can goback and talk about that.
I don't know if that's what youno, that's interesting yeah.
I'm a Pennsylvania person, bornand bred here in Pennsylvania.
Do you remember your firstcreative outlet was always
theater, or um god, my firstcreative outlet, I think, was
just, you know, playing in my.

(08:35):
You know, when I was young youdidn't have computers and you
didn't have anything fancy.
So I think there's something tobe said for that.
Nowadays, everything is givento you and it's very easy to be
creative or play with creativethings.
I mean, I know I'm going tomake myself sound like an old

(08:57):
fart, but going outside andplaying on a dirt mound with
little sticks and rocks, andthat was creativity.
Or having to go out in thewoods and spend all day long
just playing you know, with yourbrothers, with your friends,
making up games and playinggames.

(09:19):
We did it from morning tillnight, all the time when we
weren't in school and I wasn'tplaying sports, we were making
up games and playing games, oryou were in your bedroom and
playing with toys and playinggames, and that was the
creativity.
But you yourself had to beinventive and creative to come

(09:41):
up with things to do when your.
You know, when your parents saidget outside.
Well, actually my parents neverhad to say get outside, we're
always outside.
But we were always making upgames and playing games and that
was, I think, the first thing.
And then, yeah, I came totheater and acting and that kind

(10:04):
of creativity way later in mylife.
I mean, yeah, it was I thinkthe first creative thing I did.
I was in like third grade and Iplayed one of the one of the
Beatles we did to do some kindof a musical thing, a talent
thing at our school, and youjust got cast and I don't

(10:24):
remember what the situation was,but I remember singing I want
to hold your hand, andpretending to play guitar and we
were one of the Beatles, fourof us were one of the Beatles
and that was probably the firstcreative thing I did.
And I played the Tin Woodsmanin the Wizard of Oz when I was
in fifth grade.
But again, you were just forcedto do these things.

(10:46):
It wasn't by my choice.
It wasn't until I was like ajunior in high school that I
started actually doing plays,and by choice and like
auditioning for things, Eventhat.
I was sort of coerced into itinitially and I didn't really
want to do it.
I had no, no desire to be anactor till later in my high

(11:11):
school maybe early, you knowwhen I was deciding to go to
college.
Wow, Other than that, I did notthink I was going to go into
anything artistic or creative.
To tell you the truth, Wow,okay.

So what was that thing that inspired you to
pursue acting as a career?

Oh boy, I mean it's .
I'll try to tell it quickly.
It was.
It was a strange thing becauseI thought I was going to be a
lawyer.
Oh my gosh, I always wanted tobe a lawyer.
I like to argue and I like todebate, and I've thought you
know, but I think honestly,debate and I've thought you know
, but I think honestly, I thinkit was watching lawyers on TV

(11:49):
and and and movies that made mewant to be a lawyer.
Right, so I was on a plane forthe first time in my life.
I was flying home from oursenior class trip, right, you
know, great senior class tripwent to Orlando, florida
Disneyland, for a week and I'mflying home and it was a bummer
because I was like the onlyperson in our class that got
seated with someone who wasn'tin our school.

(12:10):
Right, everyone sit with theirfriends.
I have to sit with some old guy, you know, on the way home from
Orlando, and this guy startedtalking to me and he's asked me
you know why I was doing asenior class trip.
Yada, yada, yada.
Oh.
So where are you going tocollege?
I'm going to penn state.
What are you going to take?
I said I'm going to take, uh,criminal justice and pre-law

(12:32):
because I, I'm gonna, I want tobe a lawyer.
And he said don't do it, kid,don't don't do it, I'm a lawyer.
And he spent the next hour onthe plane desperately trying to
talk me out of being a lawyer,saying it wasn't all what it's
cracked up to be, it's boring,most of it's boring, it's not

(12:52):
what you see on tv, all thesethings that he, he was a
frustrated lawyer, I guesslawyer and and I don't know it's
something sunk in because Iwent, I was, I was starting
summer session, even before Igraduated from high school going
up to.
Penn State summer session.
I'm going to up there and wewent to the shields building and

(13:14):
you go in and you meet aguidance counselor and then you
choose your classes and for somereason I I chose all theater
classes.
Reason I I chose all theaterclasses like cool theory and
theater 101 and film, film study, and uh, and I walked out of
there and my parents looked atmy what, what I was taking for

(13:34):
the summer a couple of you knowthings like astronomy 101 or
something like that but and yougot theater, it's all this
theater stuff.
And I said I think I justdecided to be a theater major.
I just sprang it on my parents,it kind of just got sprung on
me.
Yeah, in there and I was lookingat all these courses and the

(13:57):
guys telling me all thesepre-law courses I got to take
and and then, and then hestarted saying electives and he
says theater, and I said, well,let's hold on.
What about that theater stuff?
And I and I became a theatermajor, just like that.
It was literally like a splitsecond decision, sitting in a

(14:19):
guidance office right before Ichose my classes and and it
wasn't, it wasn't well thoughtout, it was not practical, it
was.
It was dumb.
You know it was.
It was not.
It was just a moment of madness.

But you follow that intuition, you just
followed that.

I guess it was.
I guess it was.
I realized, and I think it wasthat guy's head in my voice
saying don't do it, kid, andpart of his thing about arguing
not to be a lawyer, I won't likeit.
He said you got to do somethingyou love, because I've spent
the last 25 years of my lifedoing something I hate, because

(15:02):
if I had to go back and do itagain, I'd do something else
that I really love.
I don't care, I make a lot ofmoney.
It's not about money Because inthe end you're not going to
care, you can't, it goes.
I can't even begin to spend allmy money or know what to spend
it on, but I'm miserable, it'snot worth it.
And he said do something, youlove the rest of your life.

(15:24):
It's that whole cliche Dosomething, you love the rest of
your life and you never have towork a day in your life.
And I'm like what do I think?
I just love doing?
Well, damn, I love doing plays,I love acting, I love creating.
I really just love tellingstories.
And there's something I alwayslove telling stories, even when

(15:46):
I was doing it with little armymen on a dirt mound, I was
telling stories.
Even back then.
You're creating stories whenyou're outside playing in the
woods.
You're really improvisingstories and I didn't realize
that's what I really love to do.

Yes, and it is a job.
Clearly, you've made a careerfor yourself, a very amazing
career for yourself, doing whatyou love, and you're an
inspiration to so many of us outhere, so that's cool.
I had no idea I was notexpecting that answer.

You weren't yeah.

No, and a friend of mine.

Shavantha, he's an actor.
He was in law school, youweren't.
Yeah, Lawyers come to myclasses and say they want to be
an actor.
They've always wanted to be anactor, but they pursued law and
I went.
Oh wow, just the opposite forme.
I'd love to play a lawyer.
That would be fun.

(16:57):
No, I got to play a lawyer oncein a play called the Baby Dance
by Jane Anderson.
That's the only lawyer I'veever gotten to play, but
otherwise I'd love to play alawyer.

Oh my gosh, maybe write a new play.

Yeah, but I don't want to have to do all their
work to play a lawyer, theresearch and all that stuff, so
wow.

So, apart from Penn State, what steps did you
take to become an actor?

You obviously went to school and what steps did I
take to become an actor?
What steps did I take?
Well, again, the first step Itook was not a good or practical
one.
You know, it would not be whatI would advise other actors to
do.
I went to college and knowingwhat I know now, I wouldn't have
gone to college.

(17:50):
Or if I went to college andmaybe I needed to because I
needed to grow up and maturemore, but I would have chosen a
different course of study atcollege.
But yeah, that was the firststeps I took, but the first
really important steps I took, Iguess, uh, yeah, that was the
first steps I took, but thefirst really important steps I
took.
I guess you could say maybecollege led me to this, because
you know, you go to college,you're a theater major, you do

(18:13):
all that theater stuff.
I always kind of knew I wasn'tlearning what I wanted to be
learning.
I don't know why.
I had an intuition I was notlearning the right stuff.
Um, the, the, the actors andthe things I admired was not in
line with my acting teachers atPenn State.
They admired other actors I didnot like.

(18:34):
They liked the old Englishactors, olivier's and stuff like
that.
You know he was talented and areal artist, but not.
You know, I liked the Pacino'sand the Brando's and all that
stuff not.
You know, I, I like the pacinosand the brandos and all that
stuff.
So I, I, I did not.
That wasn't a good experiencefor me so I wouldn't tell people
to do that.
But while getting, and then Iwas urged to go get an mfa.

(18:55):
That's what you were alwaystold to do after four years of
regular college go get your mfaright.
So I did that.
I listened to my guidancecounselors, I went and did that.
I listened to my guidancecounselors, I went and did that.
So it was doing my MFA, mymaster's thesis on the group
theater that I stumbled uponSanford Meisner.
All the years I had never heardof Sanford Meisner.

(19:17):
Not a single teacher at PennState or Long Beach State ever
mentioned Sanford Meisner's name.
Stella Adler, lee Strasberg,hardly ever talked about ever,
even the group theater, not thatmuch.
But that was a godsend.
I stumbled upon this littlevideo, produced, made by Sidney
Pollack, american Masters, onthe theater's best kept secret,

(19:43):
a video that was on PBS um, onSanford Meisner.
And then it's the minute I sawthat it all made sense.
Like all these years ofuncertainty and not really
knowing what I'm doing andfeeling directionless and not
learning anything, and then inlike, like that.
I watched this video and sawSanfordeisner and his approach
and went that's it.

(20:03):
That's what.
I'm missing, that's it.
So would have I found that had Inot gone to college?
I think I would have, but maybeI would have found it earlier
and that would have been nicer.
Instead, I found it when I was24 years old.
And then I found Playhouse West, because I couldn't get into

(20:24):
Sandy's class.
He had just interviewed withpeople.
So the most important step thatever happened to me was finding
Sanford Meisner and thenPlayhouse West and Robert
Carnegie.
That was the most importantturning point in my life.
I was 24.

Most, important turning point in my life I was
24.
Yeah, what do you think are thegreatest lessons you learned
from Playhouse West?

in those early years when you were a student.
I mean, first off, justintegrity of the work and
respect for the work.
I mean I always.
You know, I was an athlete allmy life and you were always
taught to respect what you do,respect your work, respect
yourself, respect your teammates, respect the greater goal of

(21:16):
the team.
You know and apply yourselfwith integrity.
I had great teachers early onin that way, you know, in high
school and coaches.
I had great coaches all my life, and my father too.
It was just great that way.
So yeah, from Bob Carnegie, itwas right off the bat.
I mean, you were taught torespect your craft.

(21:40):
You were never going to show uplate.
You were never going to show upunprepared.
You were never going to show upunprepared.
You were going to work your youknow what off, and just that
was the biggest thing.
Just it wasn't so much theartistic things that I learned.
That was great too, but it wasif you're going to do this, you

(22:03):
do this, this, the right way.
There's a right way to do itand that's the right way to do
it.
Like you're going to become thetype of person that everyone
would be dying to work when thatsort of came became my lifelong
mantra after that.
I mean, I think I did sort ofcoin that phrase myself to
become the kind of actoreverybody's dying to work with.
And that's what I, what Idecided.

(22:26):
I wanted to be early on like I'mgoing to be whatever.
Whatever I'm going to do inthis business, I'm going to be
the kind of person other peoplewill want to work with.
You know, whether it be anactor, whether it be as a
director, whether whatever job Iend up doing, or as a teacher,

(22:47):
whether whatever job I end updoing, or as a teacher or as a
classmate, I wanted.
I wanted to be the best scenepartner, the best classmate,
like I didn't want anybody everto be able to say anything other
than I'm dying to work withTony again, like the working
with Tony was the bestexperience.
That was it, and I learned thatfrom Playhouse West, I learned

(23:09):
that from Robert Carnegie, yeah.

Yeah, and that's something that I definitely
walked away from studying withyou for the time that I did like
just learning how to be abetter team player, learning
just how to be a better human,like to be more disciplined with
things that I'm involved in andall of that, and it's like
that's because if you, if youlatch onto that philosophy, it

(23:34):
then bleeds out into everyaspect of your life.

You know, I I've.
Then since, you know, as I gotolder and matured, I started
realizing well, that applies tobeing a neighbor or a renter.
If I rent a place, if I rent anapartment, I always told the
person, the landlord I'm goingto be your best tenant, I'm
going to be the best tenantyou've ever had.

(23:59):
I'm going to be the bestneighbor.
I want to be the best dad.
I want to be the best dad.
I want to be the best father.
I mean, of course, you fallshort in so many ways, but
you're always trying to be thebest at whatever you do, the
best you can be at what you do,Including as a teacher.
You know, I don't want anybodyto ever say someone's a better

(24:22):
teacher than Tony.
I know it sounds like notpossible, but I, I want
everybody to go.
Wow, yeah, I know I not thatthere aren't people, I'm sure
that don't like me or won'tcomplain about their time at
playoffs West.
But my goal was always I wantto be the best I could possibly

(24:44):
be at what I do for other people.
Like I want other people to go.
He's the greatest neighbor.
Right, I love living across thestreet from Tony or beside Tony
.
He's the greatest neighbor.
Yes.
Every time I go out to cut mygrass, I want to cut my grass
better than the last time I cutmy grass.

Like holding yourself to that higher standard
.

Yeah, and again that's what I got from Playhouse
West.
Like, every time you come toclass, you're competing with
yourself, you're not competingwith anybody else.
But if my, if I prepare forclass today not as well as I
prepared for class yesterday,then I'm failing myself.
No, I'm going to always try todo a better preparation, better

(25:36):
activity, whatever.
And of course you don't alwaysdo it.
You fail.
You fail a great deal,especially early on you fail a
great deal.
But on you fail a great deal.
But not because you didn't try.
You you put the effort in you,you took the time, whatever time
it took, and then if you failed, you failed and you learned

(25:57):
from it.
But but you're always trying todo your best and better than
you did yesterday.
That's what I got.
My philosophy, you know everyday you either are getting a
little better or a little worse.
Or a little worse, and I'mtrying to always get better,
like, if I'm not trying to cutmy grass better than I did last

(26:18):
week, then what am I doing?

And I'm getting worse at it.
Yes, no, I want to be better atit.
You want to be better at it.
Yes, no, I'm gonna be better atit.
You want to be better at it.
And I was reminded that quoteof yours today because I didn't
do my vocal warm-ups because ofmy cold, and then I was like,
every day, you either get alittle better or a little worse,
and I was like, oh, my god,that's me today we're also.

We're also human.
Yeah, yeah, I did not do myvocal warm-up today.
I usually do one every day yeah, those help too.

And studying voice with you also was a game
changer for me, because I wasn'teven saying my name right, I
wasn't pronouncing the g-u-e, ohI wasn't pronouncing the low,
low Loag.
Yep.

Yeah, amazing, you want Loag G yeah.

Now I do Playhouse West.
Now I can actually say my name.
It's a big win.
So how did you get your startteaching at Playhouse West?

Oh boy.
Well, I was the first person atRobert Carnegie, the first
student at Robert Carnegie everasked to teach Me, and this
other person, elizabeth Jaeger,who now is Elizabeth Rydell, but
I just.
It began with a rehearsal classthat Bob Carnegie started this

(27:40):
sort of this afternoon rehearsalclass after Sandy Meisner moved
his classes to another studioup the street we were just
growing so much at PlayhouseWest and he couldn't accommodate
Sandy, all of Sandy's classesat our studio, so it left
Tuesdays and Thursday afternoonsfrom 3.30 to 6.30 kind of free

(28:02):
and Bob said well, let's usethis studio as a place for
students to be able to come inand just rehearse the studio.
And it needed a couple ofpeople to run the class and he
just thought I had the righttemperament for it, I guess.
But then he started sending mestudents that I don't think he

(28:24):
wanted in his classes, peoplewho really are trying to talk
their way into the school duringthe interviews, right, but he
didn't want him in his class.
He maybe thought there wassomething deficient about them
or something about them, youknow, they had a bad accent or
something like that.
So he said hey, you want tostart working with some students

(28:45):
as a teacher and I said sure.
So some of the people in theclass were just there to
rehearse.
And then you had a couple ofstudents who were there to try
to teach from day one and Bobsaid well, why don't you come,
start sitting in on my classesso you can learn how to teach
people how to teach?
So I started, yes, every chanceI got I went and sat in on one

(29:10):
of Bob's classes or JeffGoldblum's classes and I was
trying to learn how to teach,and then I would go into my
class and work with these fewpeople.
We called them like the sweathogs, like from Welcome Back
Potter, all the people, no oneelse, you know, the people that
couldn't get into the normalclasses, um and uh.
And then I guess word got backto bob that I was doing really

(29:31):
well with these students, likethey were learning and people
were going hey, these people arepretty good in tony's classes.
And then bob came in one dayand he kind of sat on the side
and watched me work with some ofthese people and I I think he
thought I was doing okay and, um, I also sat in his classes all
the time and I'm peppering himwith questions all the time and

(29:53):
he's relaying everything thatSandy Meisner was telling him
and I was just, it was justgreat, a great moment.
You know great time in my life,artistically, creatively, um,
anyway.
And then you know, I don't wantto name names, but at one point,
um bob called me up at 11o'clock at night on a tuesday

(30:16):
night and to get a call and thatwas before call, waiting, but
you know, you answer 11 o'clockat night.
I'm going to bed, phone rings,it's bob carnegie on the line.
Holy crap, I thought I didsomething wrong.
I thought he's kicking me outof school.
No, bob had just fired anassociate teacher at the school

(30:38):
and this was like january of1990 or something like that.
And uh, he said uh, I need youto show up tomorrow morning.
He goes can you show uptomorrow morning at 9 o'clock
and teach the intermediate classthat I used to do with this
other teacher, team teacher?
I said, I guess.
So I have a temp job.

(30:59):
And he said can you get out ofit?
I said, yeah, yeah.
So I got out of the temp job andI went to teach and suddenly
I'm teaching like two teamclasses with Bob, and then he
just kept giving me more, andthat's how I became a teacher at
the school, and it was Januaryof 1990.

(31:21):
I'd just been at the school alittle bit over two years.
I never dreamt of being ateacher, never wanted to be a
teacher, and the way I looked atit was even at that time I
started veering more away from acareer and acting more toward.
I think I knew I wanted to be adirector, knowing that Sidney

(31:42):
Pollack had trained with SandyMeisner and then taught at the
Neighbor Playhouse as anassistant teacher with Sandy
Meisner team taught with Sandyfor six years before parlaying
that into being a director.
Wow, I thought in my genius headI'm going to do this a couple
of years.
I'm going to become a betterdirector and then I'll be done

(32:04):
with teaching the rest of mylife.
I'm going to be a a couple ofyears.
I'm going to become a betterdirector and then I'll be done
with teaching the rest of mylife.
I'm going to be a director andand that's it.
I was not going to do it formore than a couple of years,
maybe five.
Um, well, didn't, didn't panout that way.
I ended up actually falling inlove with it and, uh, realizing

(32:28):
you it and realizing you knowthat I think I had a talent for
it that I didn't know I had.
And I think you know you're sortof obligated to in life to
pursue the things that you aretalented or at least people
think you're talented at and seewhere that takes you.
I still didn't think I'd bedoing it for 34 years.

(32:48):
I still thought I'd just do itfor five or six years and then
be done with it.

You would say something in class related to
acting, but I took it for lifetoo.
Do what you're made to do.

Yeah, I kind of think I was made to do this in
some ways, Much to my chagrin attimes, you know, I thought
there were times when I've gonebut I could have done this or I
could have done that, but Iended up being a teacher and.
But you know, everything Ithink happens for a reason and
you end up doing what you'remade to do.
I think I was made to do this.

Yes, yeah, I think we all have that as
creatives the path is never likethe straightforward and just
following intuition, it's notlinear.
No, no, and some people Like acreek, yeah, yeah, and like
going with the flow.
I'm trying to be better withgoing with the flow.
In my own life too, there weretimes when I fought it.

There were a couple of years where I really fought
against it and tried to convincemyself I didn't want to do it,
tried to find a way out.
My wife could tell you therewere times I was very
disenchanted with it and really,really tried to get out of it.
But then something would happen.
I would go yeah, but I gotta goteach, you know.

(34:07):
And then after a while you stopfighting it and you just go,
yeah, I think this is what I'vemeant to do, and so, and then I
was still.
You know, the great thing aboutbeing a teacher of playhouse
west was I could always continueto pursue all the other
creative things I wanted to do.

(34:28):
I directed, you know 70, someover 75 plays over the years at
Playhouse West between LA andPhiladelphia.
I was still able to make somemovies whenever I want to make
movies.
So it's not like I and I stillwrite, I still do all the things
I want to do, I still actwhenever I want to act.

(34:50):
So I guess it turned out okay.

You're fulfilled at all points of your journey.
So many creatives may have ajob that they're not super
passionate about to pay thebills, to be able to do the
things they want to do, but likeyou're able to do it, it's all
in your universe.

I'm very lucky.
I'm very lucky that I actuallydo get to pay my bills and do
something I really, really love.
And you know, if I was abillionaire or something like
that, I wouldn't even pay mybills with it, I'd just still do
it, you'd still do it.

That's when you know you love it.
That's so cool.
Do you have a favorite memoryfrom LA during your time as a
teacher?

Favorite memory from LA.
My God, it's almost too many.
It's almost too many, it'salmost too many Favorite memory
of LA.
It's hard to distill it down toone, but I mean I guess the
things that I remember most fromLA, here's what I remember most

(36:00):
.
First off, it's crazy to thinkof all the talented people I was
in in class with over the years.
Right, I was, I feel, soblessed and so privileged to
have gotten to work with, notjust as a teacher but or a
director, but as an actor, somany great, great, great actors

(36:26):
over the years.
I mean, class was first off.
I mean I never wanted to missclass anyway, and I never missed
class much.
Or I never missed class, butyou didn't want to miss class,
not because of your work.
You never wanted, I neverwanted to miss class, and I
think the other people in ourclass felt the same way, because
you couldn't wait to see whatyour classmates were going to do

(36:50):
that night.
You went to class not just towork for yourself.
You went to class to watch yourclassmates work and be inspired
by them, because there was somany good, good people.
And then, all the time I spenton stage, there was a 10 year

(37:13):
span where I was on stage in anynumber of plays running in
repertory.
For 10 years straight, I was onstage probably 40 to 45 weeks
out of the year, some yearsmaybe 50 weeks.
I mean, I was on stage thatmuch, running sometimes four and
five plays at a time inrepertory.
Um, some of those plays I ranfor years and, like you can't,
that's priceless.

(37:34):
You cannot underestimate thevalue of that.
Like I, look back at that timeand go that was the best time of
my life creatively,artistically, I'll never, never
be surpassed.
And then all the great people Igot to work with the mark
pellegrinos and the christinecavanaugh's and all.
There's so many great people Igot to work with and in those

(37:55):
plays.
Um, hands down, though, I've gotto say the most important thing
personally, you know, otherthan getting married and having
children, but artistically, themost important thing I ever did
in my life and the greatestachievement in my life is
Welcome Home, soldier oh, handsdown.

(38:15):
I mean that play changed lives,that play saved lives.
I'll never, ever in my lifetime, ever do anything more
important than that.
I I can say that with great, Ithink, certainty.
Um, you didn't know it when youfirst started doing it, but it

(38:37):
would.
It ended up being well.
It took up 25 years of my life.
You know that was the mostmeaningful thing that ever
happened to me.

You know, artistically, when did you first
get that nugget of an idea towrite Welcome Home, soldier.

Bob Carnegie, bob Carnegie, bob Carnegie, we were
about ready to go on ourChristmas break and it looked
like it was the first Gulf Warwas heating up.
We weren't in the war yet butwe were sending all kinds of
troops over to.
You know, when Iraq invadedKuwait, right, and you know all

(39:20):
signs were pointing toward this,we're going to be an invasion
of Kuwait, right, and you know,all signs were pointing toward
this that we're going to be aninvasion of Kuwait and we're
going to go to war.
And you know, hollywood,especially Hollywood actors very
impressionable they're, all youknow a lot of the Hollywood
actors were going out on theprotest lines and stuff like

(39:42):
that.
They were going to startprotesting this upcoming war.
And Bob Carnegie, who didn'tserve in Vietnam but was of
Vietnam-era age, he remembersthe people in his hometown of
Virginia coming home and heremembered the way they were
treated.
He also remembered the effectsthat the protesters had on the

(40:02):
soldiers themselves, who had nochoice where they were sent and
what war they fought in.
So he gave me this little bookcalled homecoming by bob green
and he said the way we do theselittle improvisations toward, uh
, with spoon rivers, with cops,nom and stuff like that.

(40:23):
He said maybe you can dosomething, maybe you can do
something with these stories inthis book.
We'll do a night at the school.
We'll put on a little nightwhere you guys do some speeches
from this book talking about theeffects that the protesters had
on the soldiers when they werecoming home from Vietnam.

(40:45):
And maybe it'll affect one ofour students and they'll decide
not to go out and protest thesesoldiers when they come home or
God forbid, spit on them orsomething like that.
I read this book and it openedup my mind and it made me start
to do research.
And with another guy namedmichael pettigrove and derek

(41:07):
rydell, um, first I I said we'redoing more than just a couple
of speeches.
We're not just doing what we'redoing.
We're not.
no, no, I, I see a play and Ipitched them up this play, and I
saw, I saw the way we couldtake these stories and put them

(41:27):
in a bigger circumstance, andand then we started doing
research and going to vetcenters and doing things and I
and I got other stories and, um,we put together this play
Welcome Home, soldier, that Idirected and cast and we started
working on it.
I think we had sort of anoutline of it by January of 1991

(41:51):
.
Then we started rehearsing itand the Gulf War came and lasted
about 72 hours and ruined ourplay in terms of it came and
went so fast, we won so quickly.
We never got a chance to put onour play yet and and we were,

(42:14):
we were just about ready to putit on.
I told Bob Carnegie man, weworked on this thing so hard.
He knew we were working on it,working on it.
I said, well, can we just putit on for the school, the
students at the school, onenight, just let us do our little
play.
And he said, sure, let's do it.
We were going to do it like ona Saturday night or afternoon or
I think the first time we did.
It actually was just aWednesday night.

(42:35):
We took our class, we had classon Wednesday nights and he just
said we'll do it on a Wednesdaynight.
So instead of class that night,we did it.
And there was one veteran there,one of the students at the
school that were, you know,students in school were invited
to come and her husband was aVietnam veteran.
She was an older student, herhusband was a Vietnam veteran.

(42:57):
He was the only veteran in theaudience and it shook him to the
core.
He watched it and he went up toRobert Carnegie afterward and
said you can only do this once.
He said everybody who served inVietnam needs to see this play.
He goes.
It made me feel things I didn'twant to feel, but it also made

(43:18):
me feel things I never thought Icould ever feel again.
And he said you, you have to dothis and let other veterans see
it.
And then Bob uh, he then workedwith me and we re re Bob and I
re rewrote the play notsignificantly, but Bob.
Bob made major contributions toit and that's why he is

(43:39):
coauthor with me.
Um and uh uh.
We refashioned it and thenopened it in june of that year,
reopened it in june and on thatnight there was one veteran in
the audience, a guy named rccook and he sat in the front row
and he was emotional beyondbelief and blown away and

(44:04):
afterwards couldn't stop talkingto us.
Could not stop talking to us,did not want to go home, did not
want to leave.
He was actually a person at theVA at the moment.
He was brought because he wasan AA with one of the actors.
At our school.
One of the students went to AAwith this guy told him about the
play he comes to play.
He had to be practicallydragged there.

(44:26):
He didn't want to see it.
Everything that ever depictedVietnam veterans always depicted
them in such a negative way hedidn't want to come.
And then he left with an arm, astack of about 200 flyers that
night and he was determined toget not just veterans but
everybody in the world to comeand see this play and he became

(44:47):
like our one man advertisingcampaign and he went out and
before you know, I mean we didit every week, every single
saturday night.
We did it for the first year orso.
It the first couple of years.
Wow, and veterans, once theystarted coming and spreading the
word flocking, within a coupleof months the whole audience was

(45:12):
filled with veterans.
Wow, every single time we didthe play and guys were coming
back over and over and overseeing it dozens of times.
Some guys came and saw foryears, some guys saw over 100
performances, wow, over theyears and uh, um, anyway, just I
could talk about that play forwe could do a whole podcast.

We it's so powerful, like I've always I
could tell about that, why it'sthe most important thing.

I I mean I know that it literally literally
saved many lives and justchanged a lot of lives.
And when a piece of art can dothat?
Because all artists deep inyour heart want to produce at
least one thing of lasting valueand importance, and you're

(46:01):
lucky if you get to.
Most artists don't get to.
I'm so blessed Welcome HomeSoldier came into my life.
If I never do another importantthing in my life, it doesn't
matter, because that was reallyimportant.

Do you think you'll put it on again in
Philadelphia?
I know we did it in 2019.

Yeah, I've done three productions in the Philly
area.
You know, every time I finishit I say I'm never going to do
it again, because I won't everdo it again, unless I think I
can do it better than the lasttime I did.
It would kill me to put it onand it would not surpass the
last one.
I do think the one in 2019 isthe best version of the play was

(46:44):
ever done.
Oh, that's beautiful we ran itfor a full month.
I feel lucky to have seen itand if I felt like I had the
cast that could do it better,then I would consider doing it,
because it has taken up a lot ofyears of my life 25 plus years

(47:09):
now, I started it in 1991.
Wow, and 2019, you know that's28 years of my life.
Really Wow that I was involvedwith it, but for the first 23
years straight.
That's incredible the longestrunning drama Well, for the last

(47:32):
15 years.
At one point it became thelongest running consecutive
drama in the country and and hadthat distinction for about 15
plus years.
Wow, that's the articleswritten about it from all over
the country and had thatdistinction for about 15 plus
years Wow.
There's articles written aboutit from all over the country,
all over the world.
People came and saw it from allover the country.
People would fly all over thecountry to see it.

(47:54):
We've had a lot of very, veryspecial people come and see it
Also got the most importantendorsement of my life when
sandy meisner came and saw ittwice and sandy was really old
and was tough for him to sitthrough a play and a two and a
half hour play, you know andsandy after seeing it said, uh,

(48:16):
not since waiting for lefty hashe seen theater with that kind
of emotional kick to it.
Wow, and that's a bigcompliment coming from Sandy who
had directed Waiting for Leftyand that was the signature play
of the group theater.
So that you know what else canI do?
I don't need anything else.
I don't need anything else.

(48:37):
No, that's it.
Wow, that is so cool.
Oh my gosh.
And that was no that's it.

Wow, that is so cool.
Oh my gosh.

And that was the first time you saw it and you
actually came back and saw itagain.
I'm like it's crazy, I saw it asecond time.

Oh my gosh.
So this is creative space and Ilove asking this question of
everyone because everyone has adifferent perspective on it.
But, tony, what?

is your definition of creativity, creativity?
Well, I think there's two kindsof creativity.
There's really two kinds ofcreativity.
The first kind of creativity isthat kind of creativity where
you use your mind and yourimagination, your inventiveness,
your ingenuity to think up andenvision something that

(49:28):
previously did not exist.
It's something original that isthen materialized in some form
like a form of art a song thatyou wrote, a song that note that
that you wrote.
You know, um, you know, artistsof all kinds.
This, this is what creativityis for most artists and many

(49:53):
people, actually, not just worksof art, I think.
Uh, you know, obviously, playsand music, things like that are
obvious works of art and thatthing.
But look what?
What about inventors?
Oh, for sure Inventors who haveto envision or see something
that never existed before andimagine it happening, and then
and then do it, or even a even abusiness person who has a

(50:14):
business model for somethingthat has never been done before
and and they make it happen.
Right, that's.
But first you have to think itup, you have to envision it.
So it's not just creativepeople.
I think this kind of creativityis common among everybody.
The difference is it's likewhat's not common is when the

(50:34):
new creation is special in somekind of way, like it takes root
in the hearts and minds ofpeople and that's, you know, a
film or a play, or a work of artor a piece of music, or even a
business model you know, apple,right.
I mean, when it, when it, whenit becomes important to people,

(50:59):
then then then that kind ofcreativity is special, special.
And then there's a second kindof creativity, and this kind of
creativity is it's really theability to use your imagination
and intuition, inventiveness, tomake use of something that
already exists, what actuallyexists in a moment, you know, in

(51:19):
a unique and unconventional andcreative and imaginative way.
In other words, it's what we doas actors, right, but we're
acting and we're able toimprovise off of a moment, make
use of what exists in thatmoment, and you know what your
partners do or what yourpartners give you, or how you're

(51:42):
feeling on that one take orthat one night in the theater or
in class, and you're able tomake use of a moment that exists
in an imaginative or inventive,creative, intuitive way.
And I think the best actors arethe ones that you know, the
ones that are exceptionallytalented, are the ones that are

(52:05):
smart and intuitive and they'reable to make use of what exists
in a moment, always within theparameters of the given
circumstances and in a way thathelps to move the story forward,
helps to reveal their character, helps to their character, is
thematically cohesive, in otherwords, it doesn't violate any of

(52:26):
the tenets of the greater storythat's being told and that
creativity on a high level ismore rare than the first kind of
creativity and is invaluable.
They're both invaluable.
But you need Tennessee Williamsto invent Streetcar Named

(52:50):
Desire, but then you need aBrando to take Streetcar Named
Desire and elevate it, becausehe's such an intuitive,
inventive creator.
He makes creative use of amoment in time, that moment
that'll never exist, ever beforeor ever again, and having a
wholly original take on it andfeeling about it and say

(53:12):
something with it.
And I think teaching anddirecting is creative in that
second way and it's one of theways it sort of fuels me, you
know, because you can't workwith this.
You know we're teaching acertain approach and we've got
steps that we're taking actorsthrough, but every actor is
different and you have to findcreative and inventive and

(53:35):
unique ways to teach every actorto do the same thing, to do the
same thing right.
We all want to get them thesame place, but every actor is
different.
You can't get them at the sameplace the same way, every actor.
So teaching is creative thatway.
Directing is creative that way.
How do you use a moment and ina way that is inventive and

(54:00):
intuitive for that actor at thatmoment, to help them get
somewhere you need them to getto.
And so so teaching and it'screative in that way.
But those are the two kindsthat's creativity to me.

I never thought about that second kind of
creativity, no one's ever talkedabout it, but now that you say
it I'm like, wow, that is sotrue and it's so hard.

It's the most difficult and unique kind, and
it really is.
You know it's the kind that themost skilled and talented
people do best, you know it's.
I think a lot of people can becreative in the first way not
always in a special way, that'strue, but fewer people are

(54:49):
creative in a special way.
The second kind of creativity,and that's what the most
talented people are that.

They're able to be so present.
Yes, yes, that presence.

And that's that's where that's, that's talent.
You know and you can.
You can teach fundamentals andcertainly, being great at
fundamentals and knowing yourjob and being so well practiced
at it and confident it certainlyhelps that second type of
creativity, but some of it isstuff that can never be taught.

(55:27):
It's, it's intuition, it'stalent and it's it's an
intangible thing.
Um, certainly, more you know,the more educated you are, the
more you practice, the more, Ithink, the more uh, let's say,
experience you become.
You get better at it, you getbetter at it.
You certainly get better at it.

And it's what we're trying to teach people at
the school.
Yes, yes, repetition is themother of skill.

Even in a repetition exercise.
You're trying to be creative.
I mean intuitively creative,how I can make use of what you
give me in that moment, not justmy ability to listen and
respond, but can I respond in aunique and inventive, creative,
personal way that expresses mein a way that no one else could

(56:15):
express.
That's creativity, and ithappens so fast.
That's it, the way I do at thismoment.
It it's me, it's unique to me,it's original to me and that's
creativity.

So, so interesting.
Oh my gosh.
That's why I have a podcastabout this.
It fascinates me.
No one's ever said that before.
No, not this kind.
No, not the second type ofcreativity.
Nope, it's more of the, youknow, more imagination, like
solving problems, problemsolving.
There's an interesting uhdefinition you know we have to.

How do we get to the moon?
Yeah, engineer.
That's creativity.
Yeah, that's.
That's creativity, that'simagination and creativity.
That is beyond my comprehension.

This one engineer said creativity is
input, inspiration, output artor output project.

I like that little equation he came up with.
It has to be able to bematerialized in some form.
You can think up all kinds ofthings.

I mean, I have a million ideas, but they don't
always end up in something right.
That's actually anotherquestion I have a little later
on, but I'm going to ask it now.
How do you decide on an ideawhen you have a lot of ideas?

I'm an idea person.

So how do you?

pinpoint.
I'm not quick, I'm a patientperson when it comes to it.
That's why I don't make a lotof films.
I'll sit on ideas for years.
I will sit on ideas for a longtime.
Sometimes I get spurred on anidea and it comes out, but I

(58:01):
kind of have to sit on thingsand wait until it chooses me.
It nags and nags and nags andwon't let you go.
And then it becomes for me,that's just for me.
Other people, like when I waslistening to this podcast with
Bernie Taupin, who was EltonJohn's partner all these years,

(58:24):
and he would come up with thesebasically lyrics that are
basically poems, right, and whenhe would give them to Elton
John and Elton John would putthem on the piano and there'd be
no music behind it, it was justa bunch of words and Elton John
would start playing a song andsinging the song.
And next thing you know, youhave your song, or you have

(58:45):
crocodile rock.
Now how do you, how do you takethe lyrics of crocodile rock?
You sit down at your piano andgo, I mean, and then it, next
thing you know, five minuteslater, it's a song, a song that
becomes a number one hit.
I can't, I'm not like thatthat's.
That's a special kind of songthat becomes a number one hit.
I can't, I'm not like that.

(59:05):
That's a special kind of genius, and that's not me.
Me it has to, I think, kind ofsimmer for a long time until at
some point it just nags you somuch and then you can't let it
go.
And then that becomes the onethat rises to the top because I
have loads of ideas.
I'm constantly writing downideas.
I have papers on my deskeverywhere Ideas, ideas, ideas,

(59:33):
ideas.
And I'll pick one up I haven'tread, I read that four months
ago and go is there somethingthere?
I don't know, I don't know yet.
Put it back down.
One of them eventually justwon't leave you.
That's my way of doing it.
I don't know.
If that's how it is, how is itfor you?
How has it happened for you?

I'm actually the nagging person too, Like the
podcast.
It's so funny.
You say that the podcast.
I've been thinking about doingthis podcast since 2020.
Wow, and I didn't start until2022.

Tony Savant (01:00:03):
Were you inspired by other podcasts or you just
what did it for you?

Jennifer Logue (01:00:07):
Well, I had a web, I had my own publication
for a few years called Rock onPhilly, and when I was doing
that people would say, oh, jen,and we had a little short-lived
cable television show and a lotof people were like, oh, you
should have a podcast, andpodcasts weren't really big back

(01:00:27):
then.
But you know, the nugget was inmy mind you have a great voice,
you know it'll be interestingto see this in podcast form.
I never went through with itbecause I didn't want to add on
to the pile of everything.
Through with it, because Ididn't want to add on to the
pile of everything.
And then, when the pandemic hit,I had the idea for the podcast

(01:00:48):
too and I wanted it to be aboutcreativity, because Rock on
Philly had since you know Idon't that chapter ended in my
life.
But then I hesitated againbecause I was like, oh, but you
know, I'm an artist, like I needto focus on making art.
Like a podcast it's toojournalism-y.

(01:01:08):
So I kept putting it off,putting it off.
Then I got the house and I wastrying to figure out okay, I
need my creative project now andthis idea of the podcast, it
wouldn't leave me alone.
And I finally said you knowwhat I'm just going to do it
Like.

(01:01:28):
Once I have a system for it, itwon't be too crazy, and it's
ended up helping me be a betterartist, tony.

I bet, I bet, cause you're a constant state of
creativity, right and and and,absorbing other people's
creativity, so it constantlyfeeds you, feeds your artistic
soul.

Yeah, and it made me aware of, like just you
know, ways I need to level up asan artist.
Like insecurities that we allhave, I'm getting stuck as a
songwriter, not writing for along time, because a podcast is

(01:02:09):
so personal you inevitably bringsome of yourself into it,
Unlike being a journalist, likeI was.
I'd interview someone on thephone and I wasn't in it.
I wasn't in the story, I wasjust you know, it was their
story and I but with this Ireveal myself too Bad journalism

(01:02:33):
is when you make it about you.

Yeah, yeah, but, but uh, yeah, podcasts I love,
I'm obsessed with podcasts.
I up until two years ago, Inever listened to one in my
entire life, and now I'mobsessed with podcasts.
Up until two years ago, I neverlistened to one in my entire
life and now I'm obsessed withthem.
I listen to them constantly,driving an hour drive to work
hour back and I'm on podcastsall the time.

Love it.
Do you have some favorites?

yeah, I like, uh, I like smartless.
Uh, I like rob lowe's.
Literally, with rob lowe, um,there's one dana carvey, david
spade, it's funny as heck.
Uh, I mean, there's a wholebunch of them.
There's writers that do them,um.
There's some directors that dothem, um, yeah, yeah, different,

(01:03:26):
different ones.
I I once in a while listen toConan O'Brien's.
Kind of makes it about him toomuch.
Um but I like.
I like the podcast where theylet like Rob.
I love Rob Lowe, so do you everlisten to him?

I'm going to check out literally.

He's a really good interviewer and he really lets
me.
He does make it about him tooat times, but it's Rob Lowe.
We want to know about Rob, soit's really interesting.
But I really liked that one.
Smartless is just funny.
It's just so funny, but theyhave great, great, great guests
on there.
Listen to Smartless.

I haven't listened to Smartless either.

I listened to Sean Hayes, will Arnett and, geez,
the guy from, oh my God, I can'tbelieve I forgot his name.
I'm having a total brain spasmhere.

I turned off my phone, Otherwise I would look it
up.

It's fantastic.

Yeah, and if he was here and I forgot his name,
he would kill me.

It's all good.

It'll come to me the minute we're done, of
course, the way it always does.
Yeah, cool, so I have some morepodcasts to listen to.
They're so great.
I mean, I listen to like I'vebeen listening to Jay Shetty.
I like him a lot.
I'm really into the mindfulness, meditation, personal growth
podcasts.
And then I like listening toGary Vaynerchuk too.

(01:05:09):
He's like more business, likesocial media, really Probably
should, because I know nothingabout that.

I'd probably learn a lot.

You learn a lot from Gary Vaynerchuk.
He's very intense.
He makes me feel like I'm notdoing enough.
He always has great ideas andhe tells it like it is and
self-made guy, really cool.

I don't understand much when it comes to social
media.
I'm a complete ignoramus whenit comes to most of it.

It's okay.
It changes so much that, like Ihaven't got on board the TikTok
train and I know I should, butit's just too much, it's too
quick for me, I don't know it'stoo.

it's too large.
It just it feels too too liketoo much to do.
No, it's a lot.
It's a lot of work.
I'm sure it's a ton of work todo.

No, it's a lot.
It's a lot of work.
I'm sure it's a ton of work.
Yeah, I feel like a lot ofpeople have teams, you know, to
do the social stuff.
I'm trying to limit mine tolike what is the most necessary
and with the podcasting, withthe time now I just I'm like the
most important thing is doingthe podcast.

And people have told me I should do a podcast.
People have told me what is ita blog?
I've been told, for God, foryears and years and years.
Do a blog?
Do a blog?
Look, I barely.
I do my movies of the week andI do my posts of the week to
actors, which typically isn'tevery week, but because it's
hard to even just come up withthem and keep up with them.

You had a great post today about taking risks
and betting on yourself.
Yes, I really love that.
Do you want to talk about thata little bit, or Uh?

sure, why not?
What do you want?
What do you want to talk about?

I think it's hard sometimes for artists and I
.
I don't mean to bring myselfinto this, but, like you know,
you have a safe you might havelike a day job that like keeps
you safe.
You always have one foot in,one foot out.
And I've met other artists inmy life who are doing the same
thing and deep down I know thatif you don't take that leap, if

(01:07:18):
you don't ever bet on yourselffully, you're always going to be
in this state of limbo.
You have to.
You don't ever bet on yourselffully, you're always going to be
in this state of limbo.

You have to.
I think it's the greatestchallenge that any actor has to
overcome is, first, it'sself-doubt, right, the lure of

(01:07:49):
something more practical andstable, something conventional,
something convenient, all theinner voices telling you go, do
something else.
This is not going to happen foryou, you're not good enough,
you're not going to make it,you're going to waste all these
years of your life.
Go, just go do somethingconventional and practical and

(01:08:09):
make money and get to take yourtwo week vacation and get your
401k.
And you know, and?
And then you've got.
So those are all the innervoices that that that bring all
the self, self doubt.
And then there's the outervoices, voices, too, that are
just as bad, if not worse.
They're the friends and thefamily with all the great advice
you know, here's how to do it,even though they never did it.

(01:08:29):
Or the ones that you know allthey can think of is you know,
when are you going to be on TV?
Or what did you do?
Why are you still in class?
Why are you still in class?
No, why aren't you on TV?
Or they're telling you you know, isn't it time to go do

(01:08:51):
something else now?
Or what's your plan B?
You know, there's all thosevoices, the inner voices and the
outer voices.
They're the most destructivethings to anything that is
extraordinary right, like youcan't.
There's not a singleextraordinary accomplishment in
the history of the world thatdid not come with great risk.

(01:09:15):
Somebody took a chance onthemselves and took a risk and
were able to quiet the innervoice, quiet the outer voice and
said the hell with it.
I'm going to do it anyway.
I know it's not practical, Iknow it's stupid, it's foolish,

(01:09:35):
I probably shouldn't do it, butI'm going to do it anyway.
Everybody who's an actor did itanyway.

Did it anyway.
That's the thing.

That's the other thing you asked about.
L Did it anyway.
That's the thing you know.
That's the other thing you know.
You asked about LA earlier.
One of the great, greatprivileges of my life is all
those years in LA and through myassociations at Playhouse West
was I came in contact with thebest people in this industry at
every level Agents, managers,casting directors, but also just

(01:10:03):
so many legendary actors.
You know not just the fact thatI've been friends with jeff
goblum for 33, 34 years, uh, ormy good buddy mark pellegrino,
people like that, but I got theprivilege to meet so many great
people.
I worked with eli wallach, forgod's sakes, for a whole week,
and Martin Landau and Gene Smartand Danny Aiello.

(01:10:27):
And I got to get to know peoplelike Sidney Pollack over many
years, talked to him off and onover many years, interviewed
people like Mel Gibson and GaryMarshall and James Caan and John
Landis I mean, I'm droppingnames here and sound like-.

No, it's wonderful, no.

Jerky name droppers no.

We want to hear.

Like Jeff Goldblum, I got to meet and know Laura
Dern, gina Davis, bruno Kirby,and when you hang around I say
this because when you hangaround great, very accomplished
people you realize none of themall, by the way, none of them
chose the practical path andwhen you hear their story, none

(01:11:19):
of them so many of them almostdidn't do it.
I mean, I got to know ErnestBorgnine really really well.
His son, chris, was in my classfor five years and I got to
know Ernest really well, like heshould not have been an actor.
Look at Ernest Borgnine.
What about?
Ernest Borgnine said I shouldbe an actor.
He did it because he couldn'tsee himself doing anything else.

(01:11:44):
He tried other things, verymenial things, but he thought
this looks like fun.
He took a chance on himselfagainst everybody's best advice,
and look at how it turned out.
Everybody I've ever met in thisbusiness, they took a chance on

(01:12:04):
themselves.
They took a risk against allodds.
All these extraordinary lives,these people we look up to,
these people who create thesewonderful movies, these
wonderful plays, all thesethings that we admire, all the
things that everyday, ordinarypeople look up to and admire,
yet all of those people wouldhave told these people don't do

(01:12:27):
it Exactly Don't do it.
Somebody had to do it right.
And that's the differencebetween the people who really, I
think, make it in this businessand the people who don't is the
people who make in thisbusiness just they're able to I
don't know overcome those voicesbecause they have them.

(01:12:48):
They have them in their lives,they have the naysayers, they
have their own self-doubts, butthey did it anyway.
There's a certain kind ofbravery and courage it takes to
be an artist.
It is an incredibly courageousthing to say I'm going to be a
writer, an actor, a songwriter,a musician, a painter, and I

(01:13:10):
have to take a chance on myselfand do this totally stupid and
practical thing because I loveit so much I can't see myself
doing anything else and beinghappy else and being happy, and

(01:13:31):
I'd rather be happy and brokeand doing something I love than
have money and be miserable anddoing something I don't choose
to do the rest of my life Right.

I know someone needs to hear that listening to
this, and I definitely need tohear that tonight.

Because you're going to end up with two things.
You're either going to end upwith the pain of disappointment
right, or the pain of all thethings it takes to be an actor.
Yeah.
So what pain do you choose?
Well, the one pain is a lotmore fun.
Yes.
Yep, and you could end up.

(01:14:05):
The alternative is you dosomething that you desperately
don't, that you didn't choosefor yourself.
Wouldn't you rather do thething that you chose for
yourself rather than the thingthat you have to do that someone
else chooses for you?
So powerful People end up doingsomething they don't choose for
themselves.
Someone else chooses it forthem.

(01:14:27):
It's what gets offered to themto make a living Right, and
don't knock it.
We need the people too.
Not everyone is meant to be anartist.
Very true, there's no shame.
I always tell people this toowhen they come into my classes.
If my class, if my school canteach you you're not meant for

(01:14:47):
this, you're meant for somethingelse, then I've served a great
purpose in your life.
Because if you can, if youcan't, get through our program
on our school, you can't.
You realize, man, I don't lovethis enough to be dedicated or
make the sacrifices.
I don't love it enough, like Ineed something practical, I need

(01:15:09):
something more stable.
If you learn that, then it'sgreat.
It's great.
Then go do that other thing.
That's what you're then meantto do.
You're meant to be in business.
You're meant to be a mom.
You're meant to be a mathteacher, you're meant to do

(01:15:34):
something else and that's fine.

We have to love the process of what we do.
It's not just the results.
The results have nothing to dowith it.
Actually, it's the results havenothing to do with it.
Actually it's like no, I thinkthe process all the people I
know.

They love the process, yes, in fact, the
result.
They're not always all thatmuch of a fan yeah, doesn't
matter.
I know people who've never seentheir movies, never like they,
their.
Their favorite thing was makingthe movie, but it was such a
fun experience, it was such agreat experience for them.
They don't want to see the endresult because they might not

(01:16:10):
like that and it sours it forthem.
I know actors who are like that, like they will not see their
movies.
There's no problem doing it.
But but it's the process.
They love it.
They love showing up on a set,being part of a team or showing
up at the theater and being partof that experience.

(01:16:31):
And they wouldn't trade thatfor anything in the world and
they'd be doing it, even if theyhad to wait tables and do it
for free.
Yes, that's the dirty littlesecret that every I think 90% of
the movie stars maybe not all,but 90% of the movie stars would
tell you they'd be doing iteven if no one paid them a penny
.

They'd be doing it anyway.

They'd find a way They'd be doing it in some
community theater or somethingThey'd be doing it.

Yes, because it's in them and it's the
process and that's somethingimportant that I learned in your
class too Like if you don'tlove the process, then
something's not for you.

I loved the process of solving doors and activities
.
Yeah, that to me was I couldspend hours doing it and it
wasn't a drag.
And the people who find it adrag, I always think, man, maybe
you're not meant for this, youreally aren't meant for this.
Maybe you're not meant for this, you really aren't meant for
this.
I found it a thrilling puzzleto solve that you fail at most

(01:17:31):
of the time when you first startat it, right, which is why you
have to do it a lot, becausefirst start out, you're going to
fail nine or eight or ninetimes out of 10.
Right, so you have to do it alot, you know, um, and even in
the end, you you're never goingto bat a thousand.

(01:17:52):
It's not ever going to happen,not for anybody.
You know you're still going tofind failure, but the fact that
you're always striving to notfail is the prize.
That's the prize.
That's the prize.

It's the reward in itself, yeah.

It's making the perfect movie.
It's writing the perfect song.
It can't happen, it won't everhappen, but that's why you sit
down to write a song.
This is going to be meaningful,right.

Yeah, and singing like I do my.
I started training with a vocalcoach again this year and she
calls vocal warmups your dailydevotional.
Yeah.
And I seriously like when Iwake up, it's the first thing I
do when I wake up in the morningand it's like it just it's.
There's nothing else I want tobe doing.

Not a sacrifice, it's a gift.
It's a gift, it's a gift.
Yeah, I was like that, you know, going to class.
I know for some people it seemslike a great sacrifice Go into
rehearsal.
It seems like a sacrifice.
It's not a sacrifice.
It's a gift.
It's a gift you're giving toyourself.
Like how do you not want torehearse every day?

(01:19:06):
I wanted to rehearse every day,all day.
If I could just rehearse allday or read plays or watch
movies or you know, think upactivities, I could have just
done it all day.
It was every time you did it.
It was a blessing, it was agift.
It was a gift I gave to myself.

And then the community too, of Playhouse West
is incredible.
Just the friend you know, Ithink so.
It's nice to have thatcommunity, that artistic
community, to grow with.

Yeah.

So how does one balance being a teacher and an
artist?
That's a question that I hadfor you.

I don't know how to separate them.
I think being a teacher isbeing an artist.

That's true.

If you're trying to do it in a certain way.
Not all teachers are artists.
I don't think all actors areartists either.
I don't think all musicians areartists either.
I don't think all musicians areartists.
I don't cause.
I think you have to have agreater.
I think you have to have, well,I think, first off, art.

(01:20:18):
I think artists have to havesomething to say.
You have nothing to say, areyou really an artist or are you
just producing somethingartistic?
Right?
Not, and not all, not allartistic creations have to be a
work of art, in my opinion.
Right, some are just for pureentertainment or aesthetically
pleasing and you can enjoy it.

(01:20:39):
You know, it doesn't have to bea work of art, but a work of
art comes from someone who hassomething that they have to say.
They have something they haveto express and it matters to
them, it's personal to them.
So, to me, teaching there's amission.
There's a bigger mission I havein life to be.
When I'm teaching, right, I'mtrying to sincerely have some

(01:21:04):
kind of impact on these people'slives.
I know, here's the thing aboutbeing a teacher and it's a sad
thing and I learned this fromSandy Meisner is we are total
failures If we think about it.
You know, know, nine out ofevery 10 people who come into

(01:21:27):
our classes are probably notgoing to make a living being an
actor.
Maybe, maybe 49 out of every 50, I don't know.
You know, um.
So, man, that's a pretty damnbad batting average, which means
we're failing 90% of the time.

(01:21:49):
So you better have a higherpurpose, right?
Like I'm trying to help, Ialways tell people my job is to
try to help you become the kindof actor that everybody's dying
to work with, and I tell peopleif you're going to be an actor
that everybody's dying to workwith.
And I tell people and if you'regoing to be an actor, that
better be your mission in life.
But it is my mission to try tohelp you be the best version of

(01:22:12):
yourself.
So if you don't end up being anactor but you end up being a
writer, a producer, a castingdirector, a husband, a wife, a
mom, a dad, you go work in someother capacity.
I hope I've had some kind ofimpact on you where, whatever

(01:22:34):
you do, you're trying to be thebest of that that you can be,
and then I will have served apurpose in your life and my
mission can be somewhatfulfilled in your life.
And my mission can be somewhatfulfilled because not everybody
is going to become the kind ofactor everybody's dying to work
with, but you can become thekind of something else
everybody's dying to work with.

(01:22:54):
So in that way, to me there issomething artful in what that,
what I do.
There's also, like I said,creativity, teaching.
Creativity Teaching is, to me,an incredibly creative art when
you're trying to do it at a highlevel.
You can't teach paint by numbers.
That's bad teaching.

(01:23:15):
It's the teaching that I firststarted off with in college.
We're teaching out of a book.
We're doing these things.
There was nothing artful aboutany of those teachers.
They were just bad teachers.
Even I knew it then, in mycomplete state of ignoramus as
to what acting was or what itwas about.
I had no clue.
But I knew what I was beingtaught, was not it?

(01:23:38):
And our teachers said there wasno creativity in what they did,
there was no artfulness in whatthey did.
They were just teaching a paintby numbers thing.
Right, you did this a number ofweeks.
You did this number of weeks.
You did this and you did ascene.
You, no one taught you anything, you just, you just, and you

(01:23:59):
got a grade.
So I think teaching is very,very artistic.
I feel like you're an artistwhen I am teaching, if I'm
teaching well.
If I'm not teaching well, Idon't feel very artful.
I'm human.
I'm not always great.

So it's like being able to get through to a
student.
There's an art in that, becauseyou can't pay by numbers to
really get a message home toeach individual human.

And I hate failing students.
I hate failing a student.
I don't ever want to give up ona student, right, I try never
to give up on a student.
Sometimes they give up onthemselves or they give up on me
, but I try never to give up ona student.

So you've done so much in your career, Tony,
and we barely scratched thesurface in the intro.
I had to condense it quite abit.
But what made you decide tomove to the East Coast with
Playhouse West?

Oh boy, I'm going to try to give you the short
answer to that the quick,non-boring.
Make it as less boring aspossible.
I always tell people like thisIf you had asked me in February
of 2012, was I ever leaving LA?
Was I ever going to stopteaching at Playhouse West LA?
I would have said no, you'recrazy.

(01:25:20):
Why would I ever do that?
I make a great living, I livein a fantastic house.
I get to work with the mosttalented people in the world.
I'm exactly where I want to befor the rest of my life.
But by the end of March, we weredeciding to move.
It happened that fast and itjust really simply came down to.

(01:25:41):
My wife was ill and she was ina state where she was not
getting better or improving andat one point a doctor said to us
, took me aside and said yourwife's not going to make it, she
probably won't last the year.
When you're told something likethat, you have to go into a

(01:26:02):
different mode, and the mode iswhat can we do to change course?
What can we do?
And he said his advice you needto make a drastic change in
your life.
I said, like what he said yougot to get into a place where
there's less stress on your wife.
So I asked my wife what wouldbe less stressful to you, and
her answer was I want to get outof LA.

(01:26:24):
Whoa.
Oh man, whoa didn't expect thatyeah whoa, where do you want to
go?
she says I want to move topennsylvania, where your family
is from, where there's a bettersupport system, and just get out
of the hustle and bustle of LA.
And she wanted to make adrastic change like that, and so

(01:26:48):
did it.
Just said, okay, guess we'regonna do it.
And at the time I had no plan,literally had no plan.
I didn't even think I would beteaching.
I thought I was going to comeback here and be a car salesman
or something like that.
I really didn't.
The first person I called wasMark Pellegrino.
The second person I called wasJeff Goldblum.

(01:27:09):
Jeff was the one who sort ofencouraged me to find a way to
teach somewhere and offered tohelp in any way he possibly
could.
It was then Bob Carnegie who,when I finally told him it was a
very difficult, emotional dayhe said no, I know what you're

(01:27:31):
going to do.
You're going to start the firstbranch of Playhouse West
outside of LA.
You're going to start PlayhouseWest Philadelphia.
I said, whoa, I honestly, upuntil that moment, never even
thought of it.
Talk about lack of creativity.
Right, there was the oppositeof creativity.
I didn't even imagine it.
First off, I didn't think Iwouldn't have asked, I wouldn't

(01:28:00):
have imposed in that way.
I just couldn't see myselfdoing that.
So that changed everything then.
Then my mindset was okay, I'mgoing to be determined, I want
to recreate as best as I canwhat I've built in LA.
I want to, but even better if Ican.
Right, because I don't ever doanything the same.

(01:28:20):
I want to do it better.
Same, I want to do it better.
So I was determined I'm goingto, I'm going to make the best
Playhouse West I can inPhiladelphia.
And then it worked out great.
My wife is doing great, she,her health is fantastic.
And uh, it was hard.
It was very, very hard anddifficult the first couple of

(01:28:42):
years, but uh, now she's in agreat place, yeah, Wonderful and
Philly is so lucky to havePlayhouse West.
Well.
I'm lucky, I feel blessed,being where I'm at I really do
and all the students.

I always wondered.
I'm like man Tony could havechosen to have this in New York,
but we got it in Philadelphia.

People asked about that too, and it's just.
My wife said she wants to movenear where my family is.
Yeah, so I had no choice.
Philadelphia is still an houraway from where I live, but
Playhouse West Glenmore didn'tsound so hot.
Playhouse West Pottstown didnot sound like something tenable

(01:29:28):
.

What has been the greatest challenge in your
career so far?

The greatest challenge in my I guess a
teacher or someone running anacting school the first thing
that comes to mind could beactor teacher.
I mean, the greatest challengeearly on as an actor was bad
teachers uh, we talked aboutthat earlier um, self-doubt and

(01:29:55):
all that kind of stuff.
Those, those are the greatestchallenges.
Overcoming, you know,overcoming people that don't
know what you're trying to do ordon't have an affinity for it,
giving you bad, giving youadvice the biggest challenge is
just is just saying I'm going todo it and then do it.
That's the biggest challenge,you know.

(01:30:16):
You know how many people saythey're going to do it and then
they don't do it.
It's like.
It's like.
It's like all the people whosay they're gonna make a movie
or write a script.
You know nine, ninety, nine,point nine, nine, nine, nine,
nine percent who have an idea tomake a movie.
The movie never gets made right.
So if you say you're gonna bean actor or a director or writer

(01:30:43):
or an acting teacher oranything, the hardest thing is
just set, is just then takingthe next, putting the next foot
forward and toward doing itRight.
That's, that's always thegreatest challenge.

On the flip side , what has been the greatest
reward?
Coming to Philly In your careerin general.

The greatest reward for me is watching somebody's
dream come true.
That's the greatest reward.
That's what my life's missionis, right Helping people do what
they want to do right.
When I get to see one of mystudents doing what they want to

(01:31:23):
do and I'm not talking aboutall the movie stars that I've
taught want to do right when Iget to see one of my students
doing what they want to do evennot and I'm not talking about
all the movie stars that I'vetaught, I'm talking about
anybody when I I sit around withmy wife and we change channels
and we're watching trying tofind something, and I sit around
going, oh there's so-and-so, oh, there's so-and-so in that
commercial, oh, there'sso-and-so.
I'm so happy to see them in anepisodic.

(01:31:44):
They're still doing this afterall these years.
They're still working.
They're still doing acting, andthat just fills me with so much
joy.
They're not a movie star,nobody knows their name, but
they're still working.
They were in my class 20 yearsago and they're still working as
an actor.
That's the greatest.
I can't turn on the TV and notsee one of my students somewhere

(01:32:09):
and something on any given hourof the day, and that's the
greatest reward.

You really changed so many lives like in so
many ways.
You know, as a teacher,teaching us how to act, but also
teaching us how to act in life,like to be well, that's a great
people like when I get emailsfrom students who say I didn't
end up an actor.

I ended up doing this, but everything that I
learned in your classes helpedme become successful at this
other thing.
Sometimes it's in the industry,sometimes it's not even in the
industry, but that look, that'sa reward.
That's a great reward.
That's what teachers live for.

What's next for Playhouse West Philadelphia?

I mean, what's next is?
I don't ever like to rest on mylaurels.
I'm always trying to improve.
As a teacher, I'm trying toimprove the school, I'm trying
to teach it better, get thestudents better.
But you know, there's a littlemilestones's a retired educator

(01:33:27):
in her 60s and she wrote a playthat came out of our advanced
character development work andshe threw a bunch of
improvisations and writing shewrote, put on a play.
I would just love to see moreoriginal plays.
What's next for us?
I would love to see moreoriginal plays being done.
I have been a part of so manyof them in my life and I know

(01:33:48):
how instructive they are andthey're priceless when you work
on them.

Well, for anyone listening who wants to train to
be an actor, you know where togo, I mean Playhouse West.
You got two options.

Only if you're willing to work harder than
you've ever worked in yourentire life.
If you're not willing to dothat, then please go somewhere
else.

That's so true, tony.
It's so true.
It's a full-time job, it is acommitment, it is, you know,
it's a full-time job.

But you can't achieve big dreams by putting in
the minimum.
You can't achieve amillion-dollar dream on a
minimum wage, work ethic.
You have to be all in.
All in.
No plan B, you're all in.
You're all in.

Tony, thank you so much for your time.
This was an awesome interview.
I'm so grateful to have had youon the show.
We'll have to have you on again.
Thank you so much for listeningto this special replay episode
of Creative Space.
Tony's journey and wisdom arereminders of what it means to

(01:35:03):
truly follow your passion andcommit to your craft.
As we count down to the launchof season three on October 20th,
I hope these revisited episodesreignite your own creative
spark.
If you enjoyed today'sconversation, leave a review on
Apple Podcasts.
Your support means the world aswe continue to grow this

(01:35:25):
creative community together.
Stay tuned for more inspiringcontent in the lead up to season
three.
I'm jennifer loge.
This is creative space.
Until next time, thank you.

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