August 18, 2024 • 54 mins
On this episode of Creative Space, we chat with Michael McDonald, co-founder and lead creative at Xhilarate, a Philly-based design agency. Michael dives deep into how AI is transforming the creative landscape, sharing his personal journey as an artist and designer.
Discover how he uses AI to push the boundaries of design, from rebranding a craft brewery to exploring new creative possibilities. Michael also discusses the ethical challenges of AI in art and design and offers insights into the future of creativity. Whether you’re an artist, designer, or curious about the impact of AI on creativity, this episode is packed with valuable insights.
For more on Michael and Xhilarate, visit: xhilarate.com
For more on me, your host and creative coach, visit: jenniferlogue.com.
To sign up for the weekly Creative Space newsletter, visit: eepurl.com/h8SJ9b.
To become a patron of the Creative Space Podcast, visit: bit.ly/3ECD2Kr.
SHOW NOTES:
0:00—Introduction
1:13—Michael McDonald’s Background
4:08—Inspirations and Design Aesthetics
7:50—First Steps into Advertising and Design
9:19—Founding Xhilarate
13:39—Challenges in the Design Industry
22:52—Embracing AI in Creativity
28:11—AI and the Creative Soul
29:28—AI in Practice: Rebranding a Craft Brewery
34:55—The Role of Artists in the Age of AI
37:15—Ethical Concerns with AI
45:24—The Future of AI and Art Education
50:39—Exciting Possibilities for the Future
52:26—Conclusion and Takeaways
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jennifer Logue (00:10):
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode
of Creative Space, a podcastwhere we explore, learn and grow
in creativity together.
I'm your host, jennifer Logue,and today we have the pleasure
of chatting with MichaelMcDonald, co-founder and lead
creative of Exhilarate, aPhilly-based design agency.
(00:30):
A graduate of TempleUniversity's Tyler School of Art
, michael's work has beenfeatured in esteemed design
publications like Logo Lounge,www Design, simple Websites and
Interface.
His contributions have alsograced the pages of print
magazine FWA, graphic Design USAand communication arts.
(00:54):
He's also an artist who'sembracing generative AI and
flexing his skills on hisInstagram mid midjourneyism.
I'll link to it in the shownotes On this episode.
We'll be diving deep into AIand creativity, so buckle your
seatbelts.
Welcome to Creative Space,michael.
Michael McDonald (01:13):
Hi, how are you, Jen?
Nice to be here.
Jennifer Logue (01:15):
Thank you for being on the show.
I'm doing well, enjoying thisbeautiful summer weather.
It was cooler today, which wasnice in Philly.
Michael McDonald (01:24):
It's not like last night with a lightning
storm.
We hit our building five times.
Oh no, yeah, I was in the thickof it last night.
It was kind of fun to sit backand watch the lightning hit all
the.
I have a great view of downtown.
I'm about a mile from ComcastCenter.
I was just watching lightninghit the building.
It hit our building five times.
I was like, all right, I'mgoing to back away from the
window a little bit.
Jennifer Logue (01:46):
Cool, are you originally?
Michael McDonald (01:47):
Usually it goes out.
You know, with Pico orPhiladelphia Electric, If
there's a storm within 20 miles,your power is probably going to
go out at least once.
Jennifer Logue (01:56):
Are you originally from Philly?
Michael McDonald (01:58):
Yes, I am.
I grew up in southwestPhiladelphia.
Then from there I went to WestCatholic High School.
I went there First of all.
It was like K through 12, Iguess that's still called.
It was public school and thenhigh school.
My mom wanted me to go to aCatholic school so I went to
West Catholic High School.
After there I went to collegeschool bar.
(02:19):
I stayed there for like six anda half years because I actually
started liking school for thefirst time and I embraced it and
became like a sponge, didn'twant to leave but I couldn't
afford to stay.
So I, like, started life tryingto make money doing design cool
.
Jennifer Logue (02:34):
What was your first creative outlet?
Were you always into the visualarts or was there something
different?
When you were growing up, youwere into always visual.
Michael McDonald (02:42):
As a kid I really was in the painting and
you know all anything withcrayons and painting.
Then I got a hell of a spraypaint when I was 13 and became
like a graffiti writer in Philly.
From when I was like 13 a lot,I was 20.
So we traveled up and down theeast coast, had friends in New
York City and Philly, subwaysand murals and handball courts.
(03:04):
Just I wasn't really more likethe bandel.
I was doing what are calledburners or wild style pieces.
And then I just loved the use ofcolor and the kind of idea of
trying to avoid getting caughtby the cops, your neighbors and
your family, right, I didn'twant my parents to find out, so
it was very secretive.
It was kind of like this kindof you're in a kgb of the art
(03:25):
world and now I found thatreally alluring and exciting and
it was really good.
I mean, I made a pretty goodname for myself, got published
in a bunch of books early in the80s and 90s and taught me a lot
about art design.
And that's where I just kind ofsaid, okay, how can I I can't
really make.
I would be a fine artist, be astarving artist, uh, and my
(03:46):
parents couldn't afford to.
You know, we grow up poor.
So I had to go figure out I hadto go get a real job and go get
educated if I want to like havea life.
So that's where I then I wentto college temple uh, found
found myself there, uh, and said, okay, I really like this
design and typography andphotography, and then morphed
that into some sort of career.
Jennifer Logue (04:08):
Very cool.
Who are your greatestinspirations?
Michael McDonald (04:12):
Oh, my God, I thought about that.
You asked that question.
I really can't seem to think ofanyone in particular.
I really don't have anychildhood heroes or inspiration.
That was like my guiding light.
My inspiration was more or lessgrowing up, you know, in the
kind of urban concrete jungle,exploring the city, all the good
(04:36):
, the bad, the ugly that was myinspiration.
I even seen broken glass, theshards of glass, really broken
glass, the shards of glassreally.
This is kind of odd that thebroken glass I grew up a lot
around broken bottles, glasswindows, stuff really influenced
kind of like my aesthetic andstyle even today.
So when I do more of the fineart or even some of the AI stuff
(04:56):
, if you looked at some of mywork you'll see a lot of like
very angular type projects and Itry to lean into that a little
bit when I can.
It's not always appropriate fora client, usually it's never
appropriate for a client, butwhen I can't push that my own
creative agenda, I try to infusethat into the design where it
makes sense.
But when I'm doing my fine artand like, whether it's AI or
(05:18):
painting it's usually veryangular, geometric.
So I get a lot of my geometryand all this growing up the city
, you know buildings that arevery geometric, uh, even some of
the older architectural pieces.
It's all about geometry coolphilly that's where I, kind of
like, grew up with understandingmy own design aesthetic and
(05:39):
following particular artists.
This wasn't really in for me.
The closest I could find ismaybe pablo picasso in his
Cubism period is more close towhere I'm more, I think, closely
aligned with.
Jennifer Logue (05:50):
Other than that, I appreciate all the art out
there.
Michael McDonald (05:51):
I studied, obviously, for six years, taking
art history and philosophy etcetera.
I just never really grew orfelt attached to any particular
art or art movement or evendesign a movement.
And then in college I kind ofevolved into really liking the
use of typography andphotography.
Jennifer Logue (06:11):
I wasn't really into illustration.
Michael McDonald (06:13):
And I know there's a bunch of different
styles and subsets of stylesthat people kind of adhere to or
kind of really embracethemselves within the design.
Not me.
I just have my own little bagof tricks.
I just stick with typography,photography when it comes to the
design and then the abstractstuff when it comes to the fine
art so when you went to temple,what did you focus on in terms
(06:36):
of art?
so when I first started I hadlike I was at, I was had, I was
dueling, I was between I I was adual major, so I was doing fine
art, more in the paintingaspect, and design.
I don't even know what they Iforget what the courses were
called.
I guess it was design, graphicdesign, visual communications.
They changed their curriculumso many times over the last 20
(06:57):
years that I can't keep trackbut it was basically design and
painting.
Then it was design, then I gotrid of.
My other major was philosophy,so I was kind of, you know,
reading like Plato and things ofthat nature and trying to
figure out how to incorporatethat into painting.
(07:18):
I couldn't figure it out.
So I said let me stick withdesign and graduate a degree in
design and visual communications.
Jennifer Logue (07:24):
After six and a half years of trying and failing
, cool, uh, so when did you knowyou wanted to get into
advertising?
Because, I'll be honest, wetalked about this a little bit
before we started rolling, but Ididn't know advertising was an
industry like until I fell intoit, but it's been around for a
long time.
(07:45):
How did you know you wanted toget into the world of design and
advertising?
Michael McDonald (07:50):
my first job right out of college was I
worked at Bally's casino, did anadvertising department, and the
person running it at the timeshe took me on their wing like I
had no experience, and she saidsaid I'm going to give you the
experience of doing billboardsand advertising for the casino.
And I actually really enjoyedit.
So I had a commute fromPhiladelphia to Atlantic City at
(08:12):
least four days a week.
I wasn't full-time, I was likefull-time but like part-time.
They didn't really give youfull-time because of the
benefits, so they made me wearlike two hours, which was fine.
So either I'd have a Monday orFriday off, which was either a
long weekend or a short week,depending on how you look at it.
But I really enjoyed working.
I started like, oh, this iswhat your billboard looks like.
(08:33):
And I'm cruising down Lake Cityand I'm seeing my billboards
I'm like, wow, I can make moneyat this.
And then I was driven at thatstage by a paycheck, not really
understanding design or what Iwant to become.
So that was kind of like myfirst kind of hooray into the
whole design and advertisingworld and then from there I
(08:54):
started getting more passionateabout the design as I started
understanding how to use designand make money doing it.
So it became like a duality oflike paycheck and creativity and
find start.
Sometimes finding that balanceis challenging oh, it is now
it's the analysis about design.
I mean, I make you know I couldmake a living.
(09:14):
I just do what I wantcreatively what was the
inspiration to start exhilarate?
Jennifer Logue (09:19):
where did that come from for you guys?
Michael McDonald (09:23):
from.
I can speak for myself.
I just got tired of working forother people.
I wanted to have my own hours.
I wanted to dictate what thejob may or may not look like.
To a degree, Some of that's,you think you have that control
and a lot of times you don't,because the client tells you hey
, it looks like crap and we'reright, you're wrong, and I don't
wanna be.
I, I you have to be diplomaticabout it with them, but I feel
(09:47):
the best that we have zave andruss are interfacing the clients
and I can just kind of don'thave to deal with it because
that drives me nuts.
The amount of changes you cando to an initial idea.
It gets so diluted and boringand ugly.
At the end it no longer lookslike anything you created yeah
yeah, but at least I can controlthat.
(10:09):
If I you work in a largeradvertising firm or studio,
that's not your own.
You have to listen to trafficmanagers, project managers,
client relations people and theyand then the client next.
You know you're you're workingfor six different people opposed
to one.
Person doesn't know whatthey're talking about, and I
have six people don't so?
The freedom to have to makeyour own decisions and your own
(10:30):
destiny and actually create yourown hours yes, a thing that
drove all of us to createexhilarate, and that's where
we're at right now.
Jennifer Logue (10:42):
Freedom is such an important thing.
It is yeah, yeah.
I think that is like a key.
One of the major keys tohappiness is just having that
autonomy.
I was having this conversationjust the other night with a
friend of mine.
He's like the most importantthing to me is that I have my
(11:03):
autonomy and I'm like that isthat's a really big insight.
I'm writing that down formyself.
Uh, do you remember your firstclient at exhilarate?
Michael McDonald (11:15):
well I can name my first client that I
started when I got out ofcollege and that was with a uh,
they were called 69th streetcommercial printers in upper
darby.
I went there to have my firstbusiness card printed up and I'm
like oh, kind of threw out,like hey, which stock to use?
And the owner's son happened towork there.
I guess he was like anapprentice's father.
We bonded pretty quickly and hegave me a tour of the shop and
(11:38):
we spent hours going throughpaper and the, the old printing
presses all they had, like anold heidelberg press, like
traditional, and we got into it.
I ended up doing a card Ireally liked and his father
really liked my work, like me.
He offered me some work.
He had even new business cardsand some signage from our
clients.
I'm like sure that's why I'm inthis game now I don't have to
(12:01):
advertise, I can you guys justfulfill.
So I worked there with them fora couple years.
So it was a lot of different.
I don't know every specificproject but I remember there's a
lot of business cards that Ilook back at, probably want to
throw out, and signs that you'reyou know.
You look back at your youngerself and you're like, what was I
thinking?
But it was my start and it washum humbling and it was kind of
(12:24):
exciting and that was like oneof my first peer-to-peer
friendships I made with anothercreator in the real world, not
like donated to you at college,like here's your roommate or
here's the person you're goingto be syncing up with on a
project.
This was like my firstconnection that I made on my own
.
It went well and that gave me,I think, not only the liberty
(12:47):
but the kind of, I guess,motivation or not living with
the fear of rejection and likethis gave me that the gun hose
to go out and just go for it.
Jennifer Logue (13:02):
Yeah, it was a confidence boost.
Michael McDonald (13:05):
Exactly.
Confidence, yeah, and that'sanother understated,
underwhelming kind of like usethat people don't really focus
on is the confidence.
You need the confidence, but itneeds to be humbling confidence
.
It can't be, you know, that'sof self-brancher and all.
Jennifer Logue (13:24):
Oh yeah, that does not feel good to anyone.
What is the biggest challengeyou've witnessed in your years
in design and advertising overthe course of your career so far
?
Michael McDonald (13:39):
So far.
I think there's probably threethat I can think of.
One is always the rapidlychanging software technologies
that are you and I were kind oftalking about this before we
started was, like you know,every week there's a new
software application, a newupdate, a new technology
platform.
Now you have generative AIright, so it's just your tool
(14:01):
belt weighs you down with theamount of information thrown at
you on a daily basis.
So you have that.
Then there's the whole idea ofdesigning quick, easy and cheap
solutions.
That seems to be what'sclient-driven Right now.
They want it quick, they wantit cheap and they want it fast.
And it's really diluted, Ithink, a lot of the design and
(14:23):
creativity that's out there,either at an agency level, an
advertising level, depending onwhat discipline you're at,
whether you're in the largeadvertising agency, you look at
some of the commercials outthere, both on radio TV or on
the web.
They're pretty terrible for themost part, and then even print
collateral brochure.
You get a little brochure in amail and it's just like what is
(14:45):
this?
It has no impact, it doesn'tresonate with you, it doesn't
emotionally affect the way youwant to either buy or how do I
respond.
So that's really diluted a lotof creativity.
And then the other big thing isthat the templatizing, cookie
cutter approach that websiteshave brochures have.
You go on.
You go to Canva, or clients arelike, oh, I was on Canva, look
(15:07):
at this brochure, can you justclean it up for me?
Or say we're getting back intothe cheap thing.
I can get this done for 30bucks.
And if you don't want to do it,I can go to Fiverr or Upwork
and I'll find someone inBangladesh who'll do unlimited
changes for $50.
I'm like, okay, good luck, Idon't, I don't want to do it.
But they're like the threebiggest challenges within our
(15:29):
field right now is staying up tospeed with the rapidly changing
software and technologies.
Okay, I got that checkmark.
Fine, with that Demand quick,easy, cheap.
I'm sure this has been kind ofa problem that a lot of people
before me and after me we'll bedealing with.
I think we all have right whenyou go buy a car, you want it
(15:51):
like, you want the right car onthe lot, you want the cheapest
right and you want to quick.
So it's kind of the same thing.
So, okay, but the wholetemplatizing and Um cookie
cutter approach, and then, ifthat's not good enough.
They want to go to like someonline platform like Fiverr or
Upwork that's who we'recompeting against now Like it's
kind of like they submit theirdesign or like the amount you
(16:13):
want to spend, and so 800 peoplewill go out underbid each other
for 50 bucks.
Jennifer Logue (16:20):
Yeah, that is the reality of the world.
I mean, it opens up.
There's so much moreopportunity than there's ever
been before, but there's so muchmore competition, even when
it's you know people are out,you know creatives are out
competing each other with lowprices and just watering down
the work so much it's hurtingeverything hurting everything.
Michael McDonald (16:46):
Well, talking a lot of my peers over the last,
say, five years, the focus hasbeen on the whole, everything is
templatized, or cook, it's acookie cutter, and even look at
that, the housing industry.
Like you and you get married,you're ready to have a child,
you look for houses, they allthey're up if you're in either a
city, the suburbs or royal,they all look the same.
It's like there have like threemaybe manufacturers in these
houses and they're.
There's no character, no appeal, nothing unique, nothing
(17:09):
innovative about it.
Like they might say, oh, here'sa new microwave you can talk to
, like that's the innovationthey're presenting.
You're like this is supposed tolike get me excited.
Like no, it really doesn't.
Um, so it's happening in musicas well.
Now you have like have you'rein the music scene.
So you see what's going on withthe whole pop thing, all the
(17:30):
boy and girl bands, and there'snothing really originally unique
or something that really hooksyour heart right, like wow,
where's this music been my wholelife moment?
You don't really have those twooften anymore.
Every blue moon.
Jennifer Logue (17:46):
In the indie scene there is, like, I think,
the most amazing for me.
I I love listening to artistsin different cities and you know
they're not the artists youhear on mainstream radio or
anything but like, I thinkthere's.
I think we're in a golden ageof music when it comes to talent
, but they may not be famous.
That's the thing like I canhave.
(18:06):
There's so many artists that Ilisten to that my friends are
like who's that you know?
Or even artists from back inthe day that weren't super
famous beyond their home country.
And my friends would be like,oh, I love that song.
What?
Who is that mike?
Oh, it's someone from like the60s, 70s.
Michael McDonald (18:23):
Like it was spotify.
These things you're not gonna.
It's all algorithms.
There's nothing like.
It's really hard to findwhether it's independent visual
artists, an independent musician, anyone in an independent
filmmaker they sit there.
Oh, you have to go to the indiefilm website, but they're like,
that's even as the the, thearchetype and the hierarchy of
like gatekeepers, and they'reall in it for like, oh, I want
(18:47):
to promote or push this oneagenda.
You know, whether it's creativeor political, it's everything
is siloed, so it's really hardto find those nuggets, and
that's been my experience, andopinion is like it's hard to
find really cool, innovative,creative stuff.
Jennifer Logue (19:03):
Right, design, art, music, I mean if you just
go to venues and a lot of shows,you end up bumping into cool
stuff like um, when I had rockon philly, I went to live shows.
I lived at music venues it wasamazing and festivals, and I
discovered so many bands that Iloved from that time and even
even before then, like when Iwas a musician I'm still a
(19:26):
musician myself, but when I wasfocused on just doing music in
New York, I'll never forget.
I was at Rockwood Music Halland it was like maybe a Thursday
night and there was thisamazing band that played like
the small stage and I was blownaway.
Now, granted, they did pack theroom, so they already had some
(19:47):
of a following then, but theycrushed it.
Michael McDonald (19:51):
How big was the?
So the small.
Jennifer Logue (19:55):
Rockwood has expanded.
I actually I got an email thatI don't want to talk about
Rockwood now.
I want to talk about it then,cause I'm I can't really quote
what the state of the venue isnow.
They did expand for a time, butI'm not sure what happened
post-pandemic, but at this timethey had a smaller room.
I want to say like 100 peoplemaybe.
(20:16):
If you jam them in, it's reallytiny.
It's a standing room.
You stand there with your glassof wine and there's like a
grand piano on the stage.
But they packed the venue andit was an amazing show.
And then afterwards I just hadto talk to them.
I'm like God, I want to knowwhere they're from.
(20:37):
Like I want to know, like wherethey got the inspiration, like
behind these songs.
Like I just wanted, wanted to.
I was so mesmerized by theirset and it was the lumineers and
I chatted with them.
They had a uh, they drove from,I think, colorado.
They were living in colorado atthe time and they, they just
like drove themselves touringyeah, badass cheap motels.
(21:05):
Yeah, but so many artists that Ilisten to are just artists that
I've heard play live somewhere,so it's like it's not the
algorithm, it's just or friends'recommendations.
Michael McDonald (21:15):
There's no venue for design or advertising
like that right.
Yeah, you can just go to the bar, go on Google.
Okay, there's some interestingband I've ever heard of.
Let's go to I don't know.
Let's go to middle Ohio for theweekend.
Right, you can create a roadtrip.
There's no road trip for designor advertising, it's the web.
It's like what you find, right,it's.
You know Pinterest is alreadyold, right?
(21:36):
That's kind of like analgorithm facing.
That was fun and exciting three, four years ago.
Instagram's an algorithm.
Finding the right content onthere is impossible.
Facebook websites it's all it'sover.
It's like it's really hard tofind those golden nuggets for me
, music, I think is a little bitdifferent, where you still have
people that will pick up aninstrument and say, hey, I'm
(21:57):
going to go play at that cornerbar there's three people there
because they love it, they'repassionate, they're driven by
the music.
Where design and advertisingit's about finding the right
client that will give you moneyand they like you, like them,
they like you and you want tobuild something together.
Right, that is becoming really,really difficult to find
(22:19):
because of all the interferencethey're getting online.
Oh, you need to be doing thisand don't forget about your
digital media strategy and youshould be using this color
palette and if you don't havethat, use canva candle creative
for you, for cheap, right andlike, and that's what we're
competing with, like so manydifferent influences and it
(22:40):
influencers that derail anyoriginal thought, and that's
kind of where our industry isright now.
And thank God for AI.
Jennifer Logue (22:52):
Yeah cool, so that's a great segue.
Michael McDonald (22:56):
It's a good segue, right.
Jennifer Logue (22:57):
Beautiful, oh man, beautiful segue.
So you have embraced AI as anartist.
Did you fear it initially?
Did you have like a feeling, ohman, this is like.
Oh, I don't know about this.
Michael McDonald (23:17):
Or were you immediately like whoa, this is
amazing.
I, for the first time in a longtime, I actually just jumped in
and embraced it.
I put away all fears,apprehensions.
I know there's a lot being thecreative person, designer, where
you have to supposedly oh, youhave to have your own unique
(23:39):
thought, and that's whatseparated you from everyone else
which is a bunch of hogwash isthat the ai has given me the
ability to see things like likeit, like rapid speed, like time
warping, ideas coming up withideas.
You infusing what I already knowin my head, what I want and
potentially what the clientwants, and then getting
something completely differentblows my mind and it's really.
It's well, like a reallywell-conceived idea that I
(24:00):
personally or I don't knowanyone who personally would have
came up with that idea orthought.
Because the AI is generallytaking your general population.
It's collecting everyone'sideas, thoughts, collective
knowledge, and come smashingtogether like a neutron star and
spitting stuff out that youcould never create on your own,
(24:20):
whether it's by yourself, in asmall design group at a top 10
ad agency where you have 50creators on a project.
It transfers, it democratizescreativity for anyone, for
anything you want.
It could be for music, it couldbe for fine art, it could be for
design, advertising,copywriting, the list goes on.
(24:41):
Filmmaking I created a film.
I had a film idea from when Iwas a child yeah, eight years
old.
I used to do like littledioramas of big cardboard
cutouts from where I had to dolike little activity scenes yeah
, like little dioramas of paintcardboard cutouts from where I
had to do like little activityscenes and he put something on
the front.
Well, I had this movie ideacalled diorama since I was nine,
(25:01):
ten years old, never thoughtabout what I would do with it,
always like I would love to makea movie out of it.
Why created a movie script in30 minutes?
Wow and then I researched howwould a movie producer produce a
script.
I never realized.
There's a certain font you hadto use.
There can only be so many wordson a page.
Jennifer Logue (25:16):
There's a whole formatting process.
Michael McDonald (25:18):
Oh, yeah, so I literally, I can literally if I
want to hand a script tosomebody and I kept inputting
all my ideas and it said give me16 different outcomes, then
what would happen with this?
Then learning how to structureeverything for me in a proper
scripting format?
And I read I was like I wouldbuy this as if I was a film
producer.
So I haven't really released ityet, it's still on the
(25:38):
backburns when there's sideprojects, but I never would be
able to write a a movie script,even with some.
I had a bunch of ideas, alwayswritten down, like maybe 100
words and little thoughts,nothing more.
I just put all those littlethoughts in the ai and said give
me 14 different outcomes, no, Idon't want that outcome, I want
this.
And that transforms, it flipseverything on its back.
(26:00):
So it makes you think where youthink you're not supposed to
think and it makes you go placesyou weren't supposed to go.
And that could be in withwriting or with visuals, and
that's why I find I was excitedby it.
I can see why people fear it,like, oh, you're stealing my
artwork and that's my idea.
No one has it right.
Everything is iterative in life, creativity.
So you think of like, oh, Icame up with an idea.
(26:23):
No, you didn't.
You gather an idea either byresearching and subliminally or
just on the back of your head.
You know you?
Basically you're a camera.
You take photographs everythingyou see in life.
So when you're definitelyjourney, going down your story,
you look at a sign and our busgoes by with an ad or a sun sets
going down and you're inspiredby the light that gives you an
idea for a song or that.
(26:46):
Everyone does the same.
It's very similar process forfor anyone who's ever created
anything and you just gather allthat material up over the years
like on your hard drive in yourbrain and at some point it
spits out little pieces of it,right?
And all this whole AI is doingis taking every once and making
like it's super human creativityso you can figure out how to
(27:06):
tap into that and then pull itback and then make it your own.
Because if you're doing designtraditionally, say you, you're
on a computer, the typefaces,you're using the typography.
You didn't create the typeface,so you're like I'm gonna put
doni and I'm gonna use albedica.
Well, you didn't create eitherone of those fonts, so that's
not yours.
So you're stealing photographyyou're using whether it's stock,
(27:27):
or you hire a photographer.
You didn't shoot it.
You didn't create the scene umthe script.
You're writing like you'reselling, trying to sell
hairspray or some sort of likebeauty product.
You didn't create the lotion.
Someone else did.
They tweaked the formula tosmell like kiwi and lime,
opposed to strawberries andpassion fruit, right, um.
(27:47):
But you didn't create thefragrance.
So we have this false sense ofimportance and our ego is
telling us as individuals thatAI is wrong and AI impedes or
creates the worst of humanity indesign and creativity and art.
(28:09):
And it really doesn't.
Jennifer Logue (28:11):
So do you believe AI can ever possess a
creative soul that's similar tothat of a human artist?
Michael McDonald (28:19):
Oh, these questions are getting harder and
harder.
Jennifer Logue (28:21):
I'm getting philosophical now.
The juicy stuff.
Michael McDonald (28:25):
Oh, give me a second to think about that too.
I don't think we'll ever have asoul, but I think AI is gonna
increasingly be moresophisticated in mimicking the
outputs of human creativity.
They said at some point in thenext 15 years it'll be like 20
times.
First it'll be like 10 to 20times smarter than humans, then
it'll be like 20,000 timessmarter.
Jennifer Logue (28:45):
In how many years?
Michael McDonald (28:47):
Within 10.
They're saying singularitywithin five to seven years is
the latest thing I heard about aweek ago.
Jennifer Logue (28:53):
Wow.
Michael McDonald (28:55):
And that's really well, leading futurists.
And what's his name?
Kurt, something.
I can't think of his name, buthe mentioned that like yeah, it
was 20 years, about five yearsago.
Now they're saying five toseven years.
They think it ought to besooner than that.
Jennifer Logue (29:07):
Wow.
Michael McDonald (29:16):
So be prepared .
But I don't think.
I don't know if it will ever besold.
I don't know.
I know it's going to be moreintelligent than us and more
creative.
It's already almost.
It's as creative and morecreative than it is already.
People don't want to see it orbelieve it, but it already is.
Jennifer Logue (29:28):
Can you talk about or can you share an
example of how AI has driven youknow the innovation behind some
of your recent projects thatexhilarate A specific project.
Michael McDonald (29:42):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, we just recently I'd saythis is like within the last
year we did a.
We rebranded a craft brewery inhamilton, new jersey.
So doing the logo and identityand the strategy.
Up front, that was moretraditional sort of ad agency,
design agency sort of process.
(30:03):
But when we got to actually,the meat of the project was they
want us to redesign all theirbeer labels and they had, like
they had like 24 different beersso they would come up with the
name of the beer.
They would give us a creativebrief.
This is what we're looking for,right, we have a.
It's South Jersey centric.
We want it to have a SouthJersey vibe.
(30:24):
It should speak South Jersey.
So what we did for all thedifferent beer labels was we
used AI to help us write ascript, come up with some
prompting, then we customizedprompting and then we created
artwork based on a theme so theJersey theme.
We came up with themes likethere's the nightlife nightclubs
, right, jersey's known for.
(30:44):
There's the diners, newJersey's known for Agriculture
and Atlantic City, like theboardwalks in New Jersey.
So we're trying to come up withthings that people would
identify as something that wasJersey-centric.
So we came up with a bunch oflike, we came up with a hundred
(31:04):
ideas for all those differentthemes and we used AI to assist
us.
Come down and we created, likeall the hundreds of labels and
hours client and chose one.
We went back in the photoshopand illustrator, cleaned it up,
edited it and they had a finalproduct the same day, where that
(31:25):
would mean and we literally dida whole, all we did.
We did, like, I think, 24labels in two weeks time and we
did them in a few, like, if youreally look at the time, maybe a
few days to do all from finishto end.
And then they had to getapproved through the state,
right, because I have certain um, their alcohol police I don't
know what division they use orwith the, but through new jersey
(31:48):
, that your labels have to beapproved before they get the own
product and be sold.
So they had to do a littleprocess.
But we came up with a processwhere they got approved
instantly.
We made sure we adhered to alltheir standards the state
standards, the localmunicipalities and we kind of
came up with our own theme.
So we didn't rely on someoneelse to create a theme for us.
We created our own theme forall of them.
So we created a structure forthe packaging and all the labels
(32:14):
and stuff like that and thenplastered the new brand and
different color palettes in eachone, so each one would feel
unique, but part of it, you know.
If you put them all next toeach other, you know it's from
the same craft brewing place.
Jennifer Logue (32:24):
Cool.
Michael McDonald (32:25):
But creating the whole, all the labels was
all done with using Midjourneyand ChatGP and things of that
nature and then just going tophotoshop and illustrator to
refine them.
Jennifer Logue (32:34):
um, how long have I taken without, if before,
you know ai?
How long would that processhave taken an?
Michael McDonald (32:42):
agency I think the largest, probably saw for
them, like for each label, thatyou'll hire an illustrator, an
artist right a, a local artist,and pricing and time would vary
from artist to artist.
Sometimes it would be a week,sometimes a month.
Sometimes you get the person,the artist, on the phone, they
would ghost them or go disappear.
So we eliminated all that notthrowing like AI stole their
(33:06):
jobs there we go.
But we were able to go thereand facilitate and create there
we go.
But we were able to go thereand facilitate and create stuff
almost instantly, within a weekthey were done.
It would have took months, afew months, to do all the labels
because you have to go to allthe different artists and
finding the right artists forthe right job.
In AI I can change the style ofthe art, the look and the feel,
(33:30):
everything about it.
Is it photo-realism, is itillustrations?
Is it like cartoon?
Does it look like it's woodcut?
Is it from the 60s?
Is it futuristic?
I mean you have all thesedifferent attributes you're able
to create and generate on thefly and that's the blessing of
an application in the agenda ofAI mid-journey where you do that
(33:54):
by hand or illustrate it Idon't know if you're familiar
with illustration.
Sometimes it takes days, weeksto create a final piece that's
really edited well, looks great,matches the code.
Then you have client changes.
Here the client will makechanges I like this one, but can
you add another farmer on there?
Or can you, instead of a sunset, can you do a sunrise?
(34:16):
It's like pretty instant, Wow.
And the quality is like.
Over the last year, the qualityof generated AI just has vastly
improved Just within the year.
Wow and that's just a year.
The three years I've been using.
I was doing it.
When you do a little cat and itwould almost look like a little
sponge, you couldn't evenreally recognize it because it's
visually interesting.
(34:37):
Yeah, now it's photorealism.
It's more concise with what youwant.
You don't have 15 fingers on ahand and three eyeballs.
They were literally some of thechallenges, like 90 years ago.
That stuff has been correctedand it's pretty amazing.
Jennifer Logue (34:55):
So, with AI becoming more prevalent in
creative fields, how?
Michael McDonald (35:04):
do you see the role of the artist evolving?
Well, I think it's kind ofviewfold.
You're still going toincorporate tools like Adobe
creative suite.
It should be used as a tool.
It shouldn't be the end, all beall.
Jennifer Logue (35:15):
It's like hey, we're not an.
Michael McDonald (35:17):
AI shop.
We just do AI design.
We use it where it's needed.
There's some applications thatit's really not appropriate,
some things that just doesn't dowell right now.
It doesn't do logos or branding.
The branding strategy is morecanned Like.
The branding.
The branding strategy is morecanned Like.
If you ask for some of thestrategy, you get more canned
approaches, which means everyoneelse can do the same, come up
with the same solution, becausebasically it's doing a Google
(35:40):
search Like these are the here'sthe strategy for coming up with
a craft brew and it's going togo look for case studies.
So they actually want to spitout what's on spell to you,
maybe in some different verbiage, but more or less the same.
So I don't think it's there yet, but it will be in, say, the
next 18 months.
(36:00):
But it really helps enableartists to help explore their
ideas and become, you know,create solutions more
efficiently and effectively.
But a lot of the creativedirection is really going to be
driven by the artist.
You know the design firm or thedesign team that can kind of
really expound on an idea andimplement.
It is always going to be what adesign designer, design firm
(36:21):
will do.
Uh, it's just really knowing howto use that tool to really help
speed things up, or a couplefor ideation.
It's just incredible.
Um and the ideation process.
Is this really I can do thingsalmost instantaneously that it
would take me hours, days,sometimes weeks, to do, to get
over that hurdle, to really getinto like, okay, what is this?
(36:41):
What are the color palette,how's the fonts or what's the
messaging?
There's so many differentlittle aspects that go along to
make something really a gooddesign.
A good design.
Well, this allows you to see alot of blind spots and if you
look at that as I help youfigure that out, I mean it could
really be used as a useful tool.
And not just that, but comingwith ideas and some of the
(37:04):
things you create, it'sabsolutely wild.
It's just every day I blownaway that I was working on
something, I was like, wow, Istill couldn't have created that
, even if I thought I could.
Jennifer Logue (37:15):
Wow, what ethical concerns come up for you
when using AI in art and design.
Michael McDonald (37:24):
The biggest.
Well, I think the biggest thingI think for most people are a
few things it's how originalsomething is, the copyright and
the transparency, usage of bothright.
So like, if we're creatingsomething for someone, we'll
tell them up front, hey, we'regoing to be using AI to assist
(37:44):
us, not to create your wholething, but are they okay with it
?
So you get the client approvalon that.
So we're not like this, givethem ai something.
Yeah, we create this, we'regeniuses.
Now it's it's where ai ishelping us.
The copyright issue, it's thiswhole thing is tricky.
It's a big gray area, eventhough in legal debates right
now, because it's going to bereally I don't know, I don't
(38:08):
think anyone really knows.
I think the latest decision waslike to like, there, really
it's hard.
But if I were to createsomething purely in AI, I'd spit
some out.
Now that's not copyrightable.
But if I go into Photoshop orIllustrator and edit it, it
becomes copyrightable becauseyou actually I think the
copyright law is that you haveto have your hand.
It has to be made by hand,right or by the human.
(38:30):
So getting around that like, isthat loophole?
The loophole's huge.
All you do is change the colorpalette, maybe make it duotone
instead of full color, change acouple of characters and it's
now copyrightable.
So it really becomes theethical question, like, hey, hey
, if you're writing somethinglike, oh, make it look like a
(38:51):
famous artist, right, picasso,I'm using Picasso, because
everyone probably knows Picasso.
But if you use it like in astyle of Picasso, that's where I
think I draw the line.
I don't like using otherartists as references per se.
If the AI decides that, okay, Ithink this is the style I'm
looking for.
I don't like using otherartists' references per se.
If the AI decides that, okay, Ithink this is the style you're
looking for.
But I don't use it as apredictive
(39:14):
all-in-within-a-prompt.
That's kind of cheating andyou're cheating the artist.
And now there's a lot ofwell-known contemporary artists,
both musicians and artists likemake the sound like Dolly Park.
I think that's where you get it.
That's where the gray itbecomes black and white.
It becomes like a slap on thewrist, like you're really
shouldn't be doing that.
I think it's wrong, but it'shappening already.
(39:36):
There's nothing.
The cat's out, you know bags.
So there's nothing no one cando about it.
Um, so it's really got to dowith individuals.
How they feel about this isgoing to be an individual
ethical concern, how they wantto approach it.
I just have a motto adapt,evolve or go extinct.
If you don't really embracethis, you're basically you're
forcing.
No one's going to take a jobfrom you.
(39:57):
You're going to take the jobfrom yourself if you don't
figure out how to make this workfor you in your life.
I'm not saying, you have to doeverything, but it should be an
integral part of how you operateon a daily basis.
You know, like writing,creating music, creating art,
designing, writing copy.
You have that thought.
Why work super hard at it?
Let AI do it and go off doingsomething else that you really
(40:19):
love doing, you know, spendingtime with your family, going out
for a walk, going to see a bandyou want to see, right?
I mean, there are some of thethings that you mentioned that
you enjoy doing.
Spend more time enjoying.
let AI do the stuff that no oneelse wants to do, or it's just
really time consuming and if youlike to do it, I mean, I like
doing research for projects.
But sometimes I do research fora week, like 40 hours of
(40:41):
research.
I can now do that research in afew hours.
Jennifer Logue (40:44):
Yes, and it's probably more efficient, too
Much more efficient.
Do you think AI generated artcompares to human created art in
terms of evoking emotions andcreating connections with an
audience?
Michael McDonald (41:00):
I think it does.
But there's some of the AI artthat already has this canned.
Look to it.
It almost feels templatized.
A lot of it looks repetitive.
There's like, oh yeah, thatlooks like AI, I get it.
But then the whole idea is thetrick Someone doesn't know it's
AI.
It should be seamless, right?
(41:20):
You look at it, that's eithergood or bad, Whereas some of the
AI you know instantly that'sbad AI.
Jennifer Logue (41:25):
Good.
Michael McDonald (41:26):
AI means you know it's-huh that's what I'm
trying to achieve is like how doyou make something like it
doesn't know?
You don't know if it's ai ornot that's a good point I was
just listening to some music.
I think it was suno to googleas a suno thing.
That was ai music and some ofthe some of the lyrics was
(41:47):
creating and sounds like Icouldn't tell the difference.
It was AI that actually created, wrote the sound or actually
sang the song.
I was just dumbfounded like andthen other songs like okay, I
can hear that weird echoeycadence of the voice.
That's definitely AI.
So there's a little telltalesigns to like an experienced
person, either listening thesame thing with visually, but
(42:09):
you can mask those real easy.
Like I said, you go into likean editing tool and you want to
get rid of a reverb, or you wantto add another layer component.
You can then make it morehumanistic, less synthetic or
AI-ish.
I know that it's a loaded termand thought, but there's ways
around it.
I think.
(42:30):
Using it again, using it as atool to really help you hone in
on something.
If you're a writer and you wantto be a music writer, it can
really help you.
You shouldn't sit there andrely on it to write your lyrics,
but it can really help expresslike oh, I want another word
from Void.
Give me 40 different variationsof the voided space between two
(42:51):
ears.
Right, that's your phrase andit may not be the perfect one.
It's going to be that ahamoment Like yep, that's the one
right there.
Let me just add it to like getrid of void and put negativity
there and you have oh, that'sthe new song.
Jennifer Logue (43:07):
I mean a few of my songwriting partners over the
years.
We would always have a rhymingdictionary with us, you know, in
the studio.
Michael McDonald (43:12):
So you actually call a physical one,
like a physical one.
Jennifer Logue (43:14):
I mean, I've been so is that cheating?
Michael McDonald (43:16):
is that is that I mean?
That's exactly.
Jennifer Logue (43:19):
I mean it's, it's another tool, right?
So it's just spur thoughts.
You know, maybe we didn't usethe exact word, but it just got
our brains out of this littlesilo we were in it.
Michael McDonald (43:30):
It was like a trigger for new thoughts, um,
but oh, you, a lot of people, alot of creatives, use drugs,
right, whether it's it's it'smarijuana or it's alcohol or
heavier, to come up with theirideas.
You know, you hear all theselike creative legends, like
during enlightenment drink a lotof coffee and tea, right,
because it it got their brainand gets you ramped up.
(43:51):
Uh, and we're still using,right, I drink a lot.
I'm a very caffeinated person,so I have to do, I have to sit
there and give credit to coffeeand caffeine is like oh, that's
like creative.
There's my creative inspirationyou asked for earlier.
That answers one question.
Is caffeine?
Jennifer Logue (44:08):
caffeinate what's caffeinate?
Michael McDonald (44:10):
what's caffeine?
It's not just like I feel tired, I just love the taste and it
just keeps me energized andgoing.
We all play the same role ineveryday life.
I mean it's all the same thing.
This is no different from usinga computer like my.
My grandfather used a press andhe like changed each type type
letter out there, you know, togo on a Gootberg to write out.
(44:31):
Now they did.
They're like they went to abetter Heidelberg.
Now they're doing digital.
Now it's like now they use here, now they're using their iPhone
or do a brochure.
I mean, at some point, likeyou're sort of thinking and it's
going to spit out and you'reliterally just going to in your
mind.
It's going to melt with thetechnology and just think of an
idea and it just manifestsitself.
Is that cheating?
(44:52):
You know, because you don't haveto put all the hard labor in
and you have to learn how to usethe press.
That's kind of like theargument I have with all these
people that may say, oh, it'scheating.
And well, the computer like thetype, the photographs.
Did you shoot it to come withthe idea?
Did you create the film?
Okay, you're a film person.
Did you actually manufacturethe film about the cameras?
You create all the lenses andall that, like no, you're using.
(45:16):
Basically, that's ai in adifferent type of technology.
It's just that this ai is justmuch smarter than that.
That's where everyone's scared.
Jennifer Logue (45:24):
It's really, really, really smart and we
don't know what to expect either.
Like we don't know where it'sgoing.
Really, it keeps gettingsmarter and smarter, and smarter
, but we don't know.
It's like what's gonna happennext?
It's a-.
Michael McDonald (45:40):
Yeah, I just hope a bad actor comes on scene
and like takes it and like usesit to destroy us.
That's my biggest fear.
That's my fear.
With AI is the the kind ofdestruction mode of some an
actor going there and likesending it on a wild goose chase
and it's going out justdestroying humanity.
Jennifer Logue (45:57):
Oh, let's hope that doesn't happen.
I'm going to be optimistic.
Michael McDonald (46:00):
That's what scares me.
I mean, I'm optimistic about AI, everything but that.
Jennifer Logue (46:06):
I'm just going to hope that we all get led to a
utopia.
I want to be an optimist withit.
Michael McDonald (46:15):
I love that, the way things just go.
Now I don't know about that.
Jennifer Logue (46:19):
On the subject of education, do you think
people should still go to schoolto study art the way you did?
How do you think AI is going tochange the way we create in the
future, and how?
Michael McDonald (46:34):
people prepare for careers in the arts?
Um, I think there's a fewdifferent.
Um, I have a few differentfeelings about that.
Like I you spoke about this alittle earlier is it really
depends on the individual andtheir circumstances?
Um, something considered islike the person's finances,
right, their parents usually theparents and the parents afford
(46:56):
to send them to a college.
Are they mentally andphysically prepared to go to
college and study something?
I don't know what?
Like you're talking about 16thcentury.
You're like hey, I want to be adoctor.
Not everyone knows I want to bea doctor.
I want to be a lawyer.
Not everyone knows who want tobe a lawyer.
Like I kind of knew I wanted toget an artist designer.
When going there I was, luckilyI had that in my head.
(47:17):
Most 16, 17 year olds don't knowthat.
And are they right for that?
Like some people are like, andcan they afford to give up four
to possibly eight years of theirlife going to school, making no
really contribution to societyother than smudging off their
parents or something, orfinancial aid they're going to
have to pay back, or ascholarship, which not many
(47:39):
people get.
It's not for everyone.
Some people just want to be amechanic, right?
I mean, I find that some of myfriends are mechanics Actually
you need a mechanic aremechanics.
Actually, you need a mechanicprobably more than you need a
designer, in my opinion.
It's true my, my friends uphere go from doctors, lawyers,
to like people who own littlerestaurants that sell
cheesesteaks yeah, yeah I don'tcare, because I I mean they make
(48:02):
great food.
You know, it could be fast foodor it could be a really good
healthy meal.
I have a few of those friendsand you know I mean, when I go
on a street sweep on the street,having them at a bar and a beer
, I'll talk to them.
I have no problem.
I don't think I'm better thanthem, but they're making a
contribution, probably morecontribution than some of the
people that are lawyers.
So you have that aspect.
(48:23):
And then you have entrepreneurslike you.
Look at some of the mostsuccessful, uh, wealthiest
people right now.
They're all dropouts fromcollege.
So was college right for them?
you know, I mean, even though Ican't stand the guy elon musk,
he lasted how long?
Six months steve jobs a yearand a half.
Bill gates, I nobody go forlike two weeks and they go out
(48:46):
and start my own business.
I have this great idea and theybecome multi-billionaires.
Um, not that it was easier, itwas some of us luck, but they
didn't.
They didn't finish theircollege.
So who are they or who mighthave reached someone say, you
need to go to college to besomebody, and then now, with ai
here, I don't, I don't know ifyou want to consider going to
(49:06):
college.
Do you need to go?
I mean, ai has democratizedcreativity, education,
information.
It's making the tool reallyaccessible to anyone at a really
low cost.
I mean it costs you can getChachiP4 for 20 bucks a month.
That's like what it's like 50cents a day.
(49:27):
I think most americans canafford that if they want to get
into it and they can figure outwhat they want to do.
They become you almost become abrain surgeon it's pretty wild,
but I mean, it's opening thedoor for anyone.
So if your college isn't foryou, and even you don't become a
mechanic, you don't know, usechat gp to figure out.
You know what you want to do.
You might say, hey, I want todecide, I want to make a new
(49:49):
brick pattern and make bricksfor buildings like I have this
formula that I created, you know, with the help of chat gdp, and
my research is telling me that,that I can make x amount of
money a year doing this, thatsome people's just about money.
That's driven by money.
How much money can I make ayear?
Should be, you know, should Iwork at walmart and I?
Okay, I can make 24 grand ayear versus I?
(50:10):
I can't be a doctor, I don'thave that degree and I'll have,
like the you know um brainsabout it to do it.
Uh, you kind of have to findyour sweet spot.
I think this opens up a lotmore doors and opportunities for
people opens perspective.
Jennifer Logue (50:26):
Um, how do you see ai shaping the future of art
and design?
What's and what's the mostexciting thing for you about the
future of art and design withai of art and design?
Michael McDonald (50:39):
with ai.
I think it's the potential toopen up and transform art design
again by democratizingeducation and like, like
information, like me, like I'vehad and still having, like it's
like I'm a child all over again,exploring things for the first
time.
When I'm working with gender ofai, um, whether it's music art
I'm not really a music personwhen I go play around music,
(51:01):
it's like oh, that's easy, okay,I know how I figured out how
someone else did something, uh,and then I can decide if I want
to pursue it any further.
So I'm not wasting time withall these different pursuits,
right?
Uh, this really doesn't do itfor me, whether it's music or
art or, you know, uh, researchor education.
Some people find a little nichewithin politics and, like they
(51:22):
become a little kind of sidebarreports.
You watch all these people onyoutube.
I'm not saying a lot of themare good, but it's interesting
to see that, like they're notjust some news reporter with 30
years experience telling youwhat you should do or not do, or
vote for and not vote for.
They give a slightly differentperspective and it just opens
your mind and I think this isthe idea of it opening up your,
(51:43):
your mind, uh, and not makingsomeone like we become very
rigid in our age and kind of theway we were brought up and then
our society.
Depending on where you live, youhave this kind of rigid.
You become very rigid in yourthought process and what you
believe and not believe.
This kind of like throws thingswide open and you have to
accept it and be open to it.
(52:03):
I think that's the mostexciting part about AI generally
from my perspective.
I know other people may havedifferent perspectives good, bad
and ugly but I think that iswhere the future is is just
opening up, expanding yourmindset.
Well, thanks for having me, jen.
It's an interesting and funconversation.
Jennifer Logue (52:26):
I've learned a ton and I'm sure listeners will
have a lot more insight when itcomes to how they approach AI
themselves.
Michael McDonald (52:34):
It helps them yeah.
Jennifer Logue (52:37):
And thank you so much for tuning in and growing
in creativity with us.
I'd love to know what youthought of today's episode, what
you found most interesting,what you found most helpful.
You can reach out to me onsocial media, at Jennifer Logue,
or leave a review for CreativeSpace on Apple Podcasts so more
people can discover it.
I appreciate you so much forbeing here.
My name is Jennifer Logue andthanks for listening to this
(52:59):
episode of Creative Space.
Until next time you.
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode
of Creative Space, a podcastwhere we explore, learn and grow
in creativity together.
I'm your host, jennifer Logue,and today we have the pleasure
of chatting with MichaelMcDonald, co-founder and lead
creative of Exhilarate, aPhilly-based design agency.
(00:30):
A graduate of TempleUniversity's Tyler School of Art
, michael's work has beenfeatured in esteemed design
publications like Logo Lounge,www Design, simple Websites and
Interface.
His contributions have alsograced the pages of print
magazine FWA, graphic Design USAand communication arts.
(00:54):
He's also an artist who'sembracing generative AI and
flexing his skills on hisInstagram mid midjourneyism.
I'll link to it in the shownotes On this episode.
We'll be diving deep into AIand creativity, so buckle your
seatbelts.
Welcome to Creative Space,michael.
Michael McDonald (01:13):
Hi, how are you, Jen?
Nice to be here.
Jennifer Logue (01:15):
Thank you for being on the show.
I'm doing well, enjoying thisbeautiful summer weather.
It was cooler today, which wasnice in Philly.
Michael McDonald (01:24):
It's not like last night with a lightning
storm.
We hit our building five times.
Oh no, yeah, I was in the thickof it last night.
It was kind of fun to sit backand watch the lightning hit all
the.
I have a great view of downtown.
I'm about a mile from ComcastCenter.
I was just watching lightninghit the building.
It hit our building five times.
I was like, all right, I'mgoing to back away from the
window a little bit.
Jennifer Logue (01:46):
Cool, are you originally?
Michael McDonald (01:47):
Usually it goes out.
You know, with Pico orPhiladelphia Electric, If
there's a storm within 20 miles,your power is probably going to
go out at least once.
Jennifer Logue (01:56):
Are you originally from Philly?
Michael McDonald (01:58):
Yes, I am.
I grew up in southwestPhiladelphia.
Then from there I went to WestCatholic High School.
I went there First of all.
It was like K through 12, Iguess that's still called.
It was public school and thenhigh school.
My mom wanted me to go to aCatholic school so I went to
West Catholic High School.
After there I went to collegeschool bar.
(02:19):
I stayed there for like six anda half years because I actually
started liking school for thefirst time and I embraced it and
became like a sponge, didn'twant to leave but I couldn't
afford to stay.
So I, like, started life tryingto make money doing design cool
.
Jennifer Logue (02:34):
What was your first creative outlet?
Were you always into the visualarts or was there something
different?
When you were growing up, youwere into always visual.
Michael McDonald (02:42):
As a kid I really was in the painting and
you know all anything withcrayons and painting.
Then I got a hell of a spraypaint when I was 13 and became
like a graffiti writer in Philly.
From when I was like 13 a lot,I was 20.
So we traveled up and down theeast coast, had friends in New
York City and Philly, subwaysand murals and handball courts.
(03:04):
Just I wasn't really more likethe bandel.
I was doing what are calledburners or wild style pieces.
And then I just loved the use ofcolor and the kind of idea of
trying to avoid getting caughtby the cops, your neighbors and
your family, right, I didn'twant my parents to find out, so
it was very secretive.
It was kind of like this kindof you're in a kgb of the art
(03:25):
world and now I found thatreally alluring and exciting and
it was really good.
I mean, I made a pretty goodname for myself, got published
in a bunch of books early in the80s and 90s and taught me a lot
about art design.
And that's where I just kind ofsaid, okay, how can I I can't
really make.
I would be a fine artist, be astarving artist, uh, and my
(03:46):
parents couldn't afford to.
You know, we grow up poor.
So I had to go figure out I hadto go get a real job and go get
educated if I want to like havea life.
So that's where I then I wentto college temple uh, found
found myself there, uh, and said, okay, I really like this
design and typography andphotography, and then morphed
that into some sort of career.
Jennifer Logue (04:08):
Very cool.
Who are your greatestinspirations?
Michael McDonald (04:12):
Oh, my God, I thought about that.
You asked that question.
I really can't seem to think ofanyone in particular.
I really don't have anychildhood heroes or inspiration.
That was like my guiding light.
My inspiration was more or lessgrowing up, you know, in the
kind of urban concrete jungle,exploring the city, all the good
(04:36):
, the bad, the ugly that was myinspiration.
I even seen broken glass, theshards of glass, really broken
glass, the shards of glassreally.
This is kind of odd that thebroken glass I grew up a lot
around broken bottles, glasswindows, stuff really influenced
kind of like my aesthetic andstyle even today.
So when I do more of the fineart or even some of the AI stuff
(04:56):
, if you looked at some of mywork you'll see a lot of like
very angular type projects and Itry to lean into that a little
bit when I can.
It's not always appropriate fora client, usually it's never
appropriate for a client, butwhen I can't push that my own
creative agenda, I try to infusethat into the design where it
makes sense.
But when I'm doing my fine artand like, whether it's AI or
(05:18):
painting it's usually veryangular, geometric.
So I get a lot of my geometryand all this growing up the city
, you know buildings that arevery geometric, uh, even some of
the older architectural pieces.
It's all about geometry coolphilly that's where I, kind of
like, grew up with understandingmy own design aesthetic and
(05:39):
following particular artists.
This wasn't really in for me.
The closest I could find ismaybe pablo picasso in his
Cubism period is more close towhere I'm more, I think, closely
aligned with.
Jennifer Logue (05:50):
Other than that, I appreciate all the art out
there.
Michael McDonald (05:51):
I studied, obviously, for six years, taking
art history and philosophy etcetera.
I just never really grew orfelt attached to any particular
art or art movement or evendesign a movement.
And then in college I kind ofevolved into really liking the
use of typography andphotography.
Jennifer Logue (06:11):
I wasn't really into illustration.
Michael McDonald (06:13):
And I know there's a bunch of different
styles and subsets of stylesthat people kind of adhere to or
kind of really embracethemselves within the design.
Not me.
I just have my own little bagof tricks.
I just stick with typography,photography when it comes to the
design and then the abstractstuff when it comes to the fine
art so when you went to temple,what did you focus on in terms
(06:36):
of art?
so when I first started I hadlike I was at, I was had, I was
dueling, I was between I I was adual major, so I was doing fine
art, more in the paintingaspect, and design.
I don't even know what they Iforget what the courses were
called.
I guess it was design, graphicdesign, visual communications.
They changed their curriculumso many times over the last 20
(06:57):
years that I can't keep trackbut it was basically design and
painting.
Then it was design, then I gotrid of.
My other major was philosophy,so I was kind of, you know,
reading like Plato and things ofthat nature and trying to
figure out how to incorporatethat into painting.
(07:18):
I couldn't figure it out.
So I said let me stick withdesign and graduate a degree in
design and visual communications.
Jennifer Logue (07:24):
After six and a half years of trying and failing
, cool, uh, so when did you knowyou wanted to get into
advertising?
Because, I'll be honest, wetalked about this a little bit
before we started rolling, but Ididn't know advertising was an
industry like until I fell intoit, but it's been around for a
long time.
(07:45):
How did you know you wanted toget into the world of design and
advertising?
Michael McDonald (07:50):
my first job right out of college was I
worked at Bally's casino, did anadvertising department, and the
person running it at the timeshe took me on their wing like I
had no experience, and she saidsaid I'm going to give you the
experience of doing billboardsand advertising for the casino.
And I actually really enjoyedit.
So I had a commute fromPhiladelphia to Atlantic City at
(08:12):
least four days a week.
I wasn't full-time, I was likefull-time but like part-time.
They didn't really give youfull-time because of the
benefits, so they made me wearlike two hours, which was fine.
So either I'd have a Monday orFriday off, which was either a
long weekend or a short week,depending on how you look at it.
But I really enjoyed working.
I started like, oh, this iswhat your billboard looks like.
(08:33):
And I'm cruising down Lake Cityand I'm seeing my billboards
I'm like, wow, I can make moneyat this.
And then I was driven at thatstage by a paycheck, not really
understanding design or what Iwant to become.
So that was kind of like myfirst kind of hooray into the
whole design and advertisingworld and then from there I
(08:54):
started getting more passionateabout the design as I started
understanding how to use designand make money doing it.
So it became like a duality oflike paycheck and creativity and
find start.
Sometimes finding that balanceis challenging oh, it is now
it's the analysis about design.
I mean, I make you know I couldmake a living.
(09:14):
I just do what I wantcreatively what was the
inspiration to start exhilarate?
Jennifer Logue (09:19):
where did that come from for you guys?
Michael McDonald (09:23):
from.
I can speak for myself.
I just got tired of working forother people.
I wanted to have my own hours.
I wanted to dictate what thejob may or may not look like.
To a degree, Some of that's,you think you have that control
and a lot of times you don't,because the client tells you hey
, it looks like crap and we'reright, you're wrong, and I don't
wanna be.
I, I you have to be diplomaticabout it with them, but I feel
(09:47):
the best that we have zave andruss are interfacing the clients
and I can just kind of don'thave to deal with it because
that drives me nuts.
The amount of changes you cando to an initial idea.
It gets so diluted and boringand ugly.
At the end it no longer lookslike anything you created yeah
yeah, but at least I can controlthat.
(10:09):
If I you work in a largeradvertising firm or studio,
that's not your own.
You have to listen to trafficmanagers, project managers,
client relations people and theyand then the client next.
You know you're you're workingfor six different people opposed
to one.
Person doesn't know whatthey're talking about, and I
have six people don't so?
The freedom to have to makeyour own decisions and your own
(10:30):
destiny and actually create yourown hours yes, a thing that
drove all of us to createexhilarate, and that's where
we're at right now.
Jennifer Logue (10:42):
Freedom is such an important thing.
It is yeah, yeah.
I think that is like a key.
One of the major keys tohappiness is just having that
autonomy.
I was having this conversationjust the other night with a
friend of mine.
He's like the most importantthing to me is that I have my
(11:03):
autonomy and I'm like that isthat's a really big insight.
I'm writing that down formyself.
Uh, do you remember your firstclient at exhilarate?
Michael McDonald (11:15):
well I can name my first client that I
started when I got out ofcollege and that was with a uh,
they were called 69th streetcommercial printers in upper
darby.
I went there to have my firstbusiness card printed up and I'm
like oh, kind of threw out,like hey, which stock to use?
And the owner's son happened towork there.
I guess he was like anapprentice's father.
We bonded pretty quickly and hegave me a tour of the shop and
(11:38):
we spent hours going throughpaper and the, the old printing
presses all they had, like anold heidelberg press, like
traditional, and we got into it.
I ended up doing a card Ireally liked and his father
really liked my work, like me.
He offered me some work.
He had even new business cardsand some signage from our
clients.
I'm like sure that's why I'm inthis game now I don't have to
(12:01):
advertise, I can you guys justfulfill.
So I worked there with them fora couple years.
So it was a lot of different.
I don't know every specificproject but I remember there's a
lot of business cards that Ilook back at, probably want to
throw out, and signs that you'reyou know.
You look back at your youngerself and you're like, what was I
thinking?
But it was my start and it washum humbling and it was kind of
(12:24):
exciting and that was like oneof my first peer-to-peer
friendships I made with anothercreator in the real world, not
like donated to you at college,like here's your roommate or
here's the person you're goingto be syncing up with on a
project.
This was like my firstconnection that I made on my own
.
It went well and that gave me,I think, not only the liberty
(12:47):
but the kind of, I guess,motivation or not living with
the fear of rejection and likethis gave me that the gun hose
to go out and just go for it.
Jennifer Logue (13:02):
Yeah, it was a confidence boost.
Michael McDonald (13:05):
Exactly.
Confidence, yeah, and that'sanother understated,
underwhelming kind of like usethat people don't really focus
on is the confidence.
You need the confidence, but itneeds to be humbling confidence
.
It can't be, you know, that'sof self-brancher and all.
Jennifer Logue (13:24):
Oh yeah, that does not feel good to anyone.
What is the biggest challengeyou've witnessed in your years
in design and advertising overthe course of your career so far
?
Michael McDonald (13:39):
So far.
I think there's probably threethat I can think of.
One is always the rapidlychanging software technologies
that are you and I were kind oftalking about this before we
started was, like you know,every week there's a new
software application, a newupdate, a new technology
platform.
Now you have generative AIright, so it's just your tool
(14:01):
belt weighs you down with theamount of information thrown at
you on a daily basis.
So you have that.
Then there's the whole idea ofdesigning quick, easy and cheap
solutions.
That seems to be what'sclient-driven Right now.
They want it quick, they wantit cheap and they want it fast.
And it's really diluted, Ithink, a lot of the design and
(14:23):
creativity that's out there,either at an agency level, an
advertising level, depending onwhat discipline you're at,
whether you're in the largeadvertising agency, you look at
some of the commercials outthere, both on radio TV or on
the web.
They're pretty terrible for themost part, and then even print
collateral brochure.
You get a little brochure in amail and it's just like what is
(14:45):
this?
It has no impact, it doesn'tresonate with you, it doesn't
emotionally affect the way youwant to either buy or how do I
respond.
So that's really diluted a lotof creativity.
And then the other big thing isthat the templatizing, cookie
cutter approach that websiteshave brochures have.
You go on.
You go to Canva, or clients arelike, oh, I was on Canva, look
(15:07):
at this brochure, can you justclean it up for me?
Or say we're getting back intothe cheap thing.
I can get this done for 30bucks.
And if you don't want to do it,I can go to Fiverr or Upwork
and I'll find someone inBangladesh who'll do unlimited
changes for $50.
I'm like, okay, good luck, Idon't, I don't want to do it.
But they're like the threebiggest challenges within our
(15:29):
field right now is staying up tospeed with the rapidly changing
software and technologies.
Okay, I got that checkmark.
Fine, with that Demand quick,easy, cheap.
I'm sure this has been kind ofa problem that a lot of people
before me and after me we'll bedealing with.
I think we all have right whenyou go buy a car, you want it
(15:51):
like, you want the right car onthe lot, you want the cheapest
right and you want to quick.
So it's kind of the same thing.
So, okay, but the wholetemplatizing and Um cookie
cutter approach, and then, ifthat's not good enough.
They want to go to like someonline platform like Fiverr or
Upwork that's who we'recompeting against now Like it's
kind of like they submit theirdesign or like the amount you
(16:13):
want to spend, and so 800 peoplewill go out underbid each other
for 50 bucks.
Jennifer Logue (16:20):
Yeah, that is the reality of the world.
I mean, it opens up.
There's so much moreopportunity than there's ever
been before, but there's so muchmore competition, even when
it's you know people are out,you know creatives are out
competing each other with lowprices and just watering down
the work so much it's hurtingeverything hurting everything.
Michael McDonald (16:46):
Well, talking a lot of my peers over the last,
say, five years, the focus hasbeen on the whole, everything is
templatized, or cook, it's acookie cutter, and even look at
that, the housing industry.
Like you and you get married,you're ready to have a child,
you look for houses, they allthey're up if you're in either a
city, the suburbs or royal,they all look the same.
It's like there have like threemaybe manufacturers in these
houses and they're.
There's no character, no appeal, nothing unique, nothing
(17:09):
innovative about it.
Like they might say, oh, here'sa new microwave you can talk to
, like that's the innovationthey're presenting.
You're like this is supposed tolike get me excited.
Like no, it really doesn't.
Um, so it's happening in musicas well.
Now you have like have you'rein the music scene.
So you see what's going on withthe whole pop thing, all the
(17:30):
boy and girl bands, and there'snothing really originally unique
or something that really hooksyour heart right, like wow,
where's this music been my wholelife moment?
You don't really have those twooften anymore.
Every blue moon.
Jennifer Logue (17:46):
In the indie scene there is, like, I think,
the most amazing for me.
I I love listening to artistsin different cities and you know
they're not the artists youhear on mainstream radio or
anything but like, I thinkthere's.
I think we're in a golden ageof music when it comes to talent
, but they may not be famous.
That's the thing like I canhave.
(18:06):
There's so many artists that Ilisten to that my friends are
like who's that you know?
Or even artists from back inthe day that weren't super
famous beyond their home country.
And my friends would be like,oh, I love that song.
What?
Who is that mike?
Oh, it's someone from like the60s, 70s.
Michael McDonald (18:23):
Like it was spotify.
These things you're not gonna.
It's all algorithms.
There's nothing like.
It's really hard to findwhether it's independent visual
artists, an independent musician, anyone in an independent
filmmaker they sit there.
Oh, you have to go to the indiefilm website, but they're like,
that's even as the the, thearchetype and the hierarchy of
like gatekeepers, and they'reall in it for like, oh, I want
(18:47):
to promote or push this oneagenda.
You know, whether it's creativeor political, it's everything
is siloed, so it's really hardto find those nuggets, and
that's been my experience, andopinion is like it's hard to
find really cool, innovative,creative stuff.
Jennifer Logue (19:03):
Right, design, art, music, I mean if you just
go to venues and a lot of shows,you end up bumping into cool
stuff like um, when I had rockon philly, I went to live shows.
I lived at music venues it wasamazing and festivals, and I
discovered so many bands that Iloved from that time and even
even before then, like when Iwas a musician I'm still a
(19:26):
musician myself, but when I wasfocused on just doing music in
New York, I'll never forget.
I was at Rockwood Music Halland it was like maybe a Thursday
night and there was thisamazing band that played like
the small stage and I was blownaway.
Now, granted, they did pack theroom, so they already had some
(19:47):
of a following then, but theycrushed it.
Michael McDonald (19:51):
How big was the?
So the small.
Jennifer Logue (19:55):
Rockwood has expanded.
I actually I got an email thatI don't want to talk about
Rockwood now.
I want to talk about it then,cause I'm I can't really quote
what the state of the venue isnow.
They did expand for a time, butI'm not sure what happened
post-pandemic, but at this timethey had a smaller room.
I want to say like 100 peoplemaybe.
(20:16):
If you jam them in, it's reallytiny.
It's a standing room.
You stand there with your glassof wine and there's like a
grand piano on the stage.
But they packed the venue andit was an amazing show.
And then afterwards I just hadto talk to them.
I'm like God, I want to knowwhere they're from.
(20:37):
Like I want to know, like wherethey got the inspiration, like
behind these songs.
Like I just wanted, wanted to.
I was so mesmerized by theirset and it was the lumineers and
I chatted with them.
They had a uh, they drove from,I think, colorado.
They were living in colorado atthe time and they, they just
like drove themselves touringyeah, badass cheap motels.
(21:05):
Yeah, but so many artists that Ilisten to are just artists that
I've heard play live somewhere,so it's like it's not the
algorithm, it's just or friends'recommendations.
Michael McDonald (21:15):
There's no venue for design or advertising
like that right.
Yeah, you can just go to the bar, go on Google.
Okay, there's some interestingband I've ever heard of.
Let's go to I don't know.
Let's go to middle Ohio for theweekend.
Right, you can create a roadtrip.
There's no road trip for designor advertising, it's the web.
It's like what you find, right,it's.
You know Pinterest is alreadyold, right?
(21:36):
That's kind of like analgorithm facing.
That was fun and exciting three, four years ago.
Instagram's an algorithm.
Finding the right content onthere is impossible.
Facebook websites it's all it'sover.
It's like it's really hard tofind those golden nuggets for me
, music, I think is a little bitdifferent, where you still have
people that will pick up aninstrument and say, hey, I'm
(21:57):
going to go play at that cornerbar there's three people there
because they love it, they'repassionate, they're driven by
the music.
Where design and advertisingit's about finding the right
client that will give you moneyand they like you, like them,
they like you and you want tobuild something together.
Right, that is becoming really,really difficult to find
(22:19):
because of all the interferencethey're getting online.
Oh, you need to be doing thisand don't forget about your
digital media strategy and youshould be using this color
palette and if you don't havethat, use canva candle creative
for you, for cheap, right andlike, and that's what we're
competing with, like so manydifferent influences and it
(22:40):
influencers that derail anyoriginal thought, and that's
kind of where our industry isright now.
And thank God for AI.
Jennifer Logue (22:52):
Yeah cool, so that's a great segue.
Michael McDonald (22:56):
It's a good segue, right.
Jennifer Logue (22:57):
Beautiful, oh man, beautiful segue.
So you have embraced AI as anartist.
Did you fear it initially?
Did you have like a feeling, ohman, this is like.
Oh, I don't know about this.
Michael McDonald (23:17):
Or were you immediately like whoa, this is
amazing.
I, for the first time in a longtime, I actually just jumped in
and embraced it.
I put away all fears,apprehensions.
I know there's a lot being thecreative person, designer, where
you have to supposedly oh, youhave to have your own unique
(23:39):
thought, and that's whatseparated you from everyone else
which is a bunch of hogwash isthat the ai has given me the
ability to see things like likeit, like rapid speed, like time
warping, ideas coming up withideas.
You infusing what I already knowin my head, what I want and
potentially what the clientwants, and then getting
something completely differentblows my mind and it's really.
It's well, like a reallywell-conceived idea that I
(24:00):
personally or I don't knowanyone who personally would have
came up with that idea orthought.
Because the AI is generallytaking your general population.
It's collecting everyone'sideas, thoughts, collective
knowledge, and come smashingtogether like a neutron star and
spitting stuff out that youcould never create on your own,
(24:20):
whether it's by yourself, in asmall design group at a top 10
ad agency where you have 50creators on a project.
It transfers, it democratizescreativity for anyone, for
anything you want.
It could be for music, it couldbe for fine art, it could be for
design, advertising,copywriting, the list goes on.
(24:41):
Filmmaking I created a film.
I had a film idea from when Iwas a child yeah, eight years
old.
I used to do like littledioramas of big cardboard
cutouts from where I had to dolike little activity scenes yeah
, like little dioramas of paintcardboard cutouts from where I
had to do like little activityscenes and he put something on
the front.
Well, I had this movie ideacalled diorama since I was nine,
(25:01):
ten years old, never thoughtabout what I would do with it,
always like I would love to makea movie out of it.
Why created a movie script in30 minutes?
Wow and then I researched howwould a movie producer produce a
script.
I never realized.
There's a certain font you hadto use.
There can only be so many wordson a page.
Jennifer Logue (25:16):
There's a whole formatting process.
Michael McDonald (25:18):
Oh, yeah, so I literally, I can literally if I
want to hand a script tosomebody and I kept inputting
all my ideas and it said give me16 different outcomes, then
what would happen with this?
Then learning how to structureeverything for me in a proper
scripting format?
And I read I was like I wouldbuy this as if I was a film
producer.
So I haven't really released ityet, it's still on the
(25:38):
backburns when there's sideprojects, but I never would be
able to write a a movie script,even with some.
I had a bunch of ideas, alwayswritten down, like maybe 100
words and little thoughts,nothing more.
I just put all those littlethoughts in the ai and said give
me 14 different outcomes, no, Idon't want that outcome, I want
this.
And that transforms, it flipseverything on its back.
(26:00):
So it makes you think where youthink you're not supposed to
think and it makes you go placesyou weren't supposed to go.
And that could be in withwriting or with visuals, and
that's why I find I was excitedby it.
I can see why people fear it,like, oh, you're stealing my
artwork and that's my idea.
No one has it right.
Everything is iterative in life, creativity.
So you think of like, oh, Icame up with an idea.
(26:23):
No, you didn't.
You gather an idea either byresearching and subliminally or
just on the back of your head.
You know you?
Basically you're a camera.
You take photographs everythingyou see in life.
So when you're definitelyjourney, going down your story,
you look at a sign and our busgoes by with an ad or a sun sets
going down and you're inspiredby the light that gives you an
idea for a song or that.
(26:46):
Everyone does the same.
It's very similar process forfor anyone who's ever created
anything and you just gather allthat material up over the years
like on your hard drive in yourbrain and at some point it
spits out little pieces of it,right?
And all this whole AI is doingis taking every once and making
like it's super human creativityso you can figure out how to
(27:06):
tap into that and then pull itback and then make it your own.
Because if you're doing designtraditionally, say you, you're
on a computer, the typefaces,you're using the typography.
You didn't create the typeface,so you're like I'm gonna put
doni and I'm gonna use albedica.
Well, you didn't create eitherone of those fonts, so that's
not yours.
So you're stealing photographyyou're using whether it's stock,
(27:27):
or you hire a photographer.
You didn't shoot it.
You didn't create the scene umthe script.
You're writing like you'reselling, trying to sell
hairspray or some sort of likebeauty product.
You didn't create the lotion.
Someone else did.
They tweaked the formula tosmell like kiwi and lime,
opposed to strawberries andpassion fruit, right, um.
(27:47):
But you didn't create thefragrance.
So we have this false sense ofimportance and our ego is
telling us as individuals thatAI is wrong and AI impedes or
creates the worst of humanity indesign and creativity and art.
(28:09):
And it really doesn't.
Jennifer Logue (28:11):
So do you believe AI can ever possess a
creative soul that's similar tothat of a human artist?
Michael McDonald (28:19):
Oh, these questions are getting harder and
harder.
Jennifer Logue (28:21):
I'm getting philosophical now.
The juicy stuff.
Michael McDonald (28:25):
Oh, give me a second to think about that too.
I don't think we'll ever have asoul, but I think AI is gonna
increasingly be moresophisticated in mimicking the
outputs of human creativity.
They said at some point in thenext 15 years it'll be like 20
times.
First it'll be like 10 to 20times smarter than humans, then
it'll be like 20,000 timessmarter.
Jennifer Logue (28:45):
In how many years?
Michael McDonald (28:47):
Within 10.
They're saying singularitywithin five to seven years is
the latest thing I heard about aweek ago.
Jennifer Logue (28:53):
Wow.
Michael McDonald (28:55):
And that's really well, leading futurists.
And what's his name?
Kurt, something.
I can't think of his name, buthe mentioned that like yeah, it
was 20 years, about five yearsago.
Now they're saying five toseven years.
They think it ought to besooner than that.
Jennifer Logue (29:07):
Wow.
Michael McDonald (29:16):
So be prepared .
But I don't think.
I don't know if it will ever besold.
I don't know.
I know it's going to be moreintelligent than us and more
creative.
It's already almost.
It's as creative and morecreative than it is already.
People don't want to see it orbelieve it, but it already is.
Jennifer Logue (29:28):
Can you talk about or can you share an
example of how AI has driven youknow the innovation behind some
of your recent projects thatexhilarate A specific project.
Michael McDonald (29:42):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, we just recently I'd saythis is like within the last
year we did a.
We rebranded a craft brewery inhamilton, new jersey.
So doing the logo and identityand the strategy.
Up front, that was moretraditional sort of ad agency,
design agency sort of process.
(30:03):
But when we got to actually,the meat of the project was they
want us to redesign all theirbeer labels and they had, like
they had like 24 different beersso they would come up with the
name of the beer.
They would give us a creativebrief.
This is what we're looking for,right, we have a.
It's South Jersey centric.
We want it to have a SouthJersey vibe.
(30:24):
It should speak South Jersey.
So what we did for all thedifferent beer labels was we
used AI to help us write ascript, come up with some
prompting, then we customizedprompting and then we created
artwork based on a theme so theJersey theme.
We came up with themes likethere's the nightlife nightclubs
, right, jersey's known for.
(30:44):
There's the diners, newJersey's known for Agriculture
and Atlantic City, like theboardwalks in New Jersey.
So we're trying to come up withthings that people would
identify as something that wasJersey-centric.
So we came up with a bunch oflike, we came up with a hundred
(31:04):
ideas for all those differentthemes and we used AI to assist
us.
Come down and we created, likeall the hundreds of labels and
hours client and chose one.
We went back in the photoshopand illustrator, cleaned it up,
edited it and they had a finalproduct the same day, where that
(31:25):
would mean and we literally dida whole, all we did.
We did, like, I think, 24labels in two weeks time and we
did them in a few, like, if youreally look at the time, maybe a
few days to do all from finishto end.
And then they had to getapproved through the state,
right, because I have certain um, their alcohol police I don't
know what division they use orwith the, but through new jersey
(31:48):
, that your labels have to beapproved before they get the own
product and be sold.
So they had to do a littleprocess.
But we came up with a processwhere they got approved
instantly.
We made sure we adhered to alltheir standards the state
standards, the localmunicipalities and we kind of
came up with our own theme.
So we didn't rely on someoneelse to create a theme for us.
We created our own theme forall of them.
So we created a structure forthe packaging and all the labels
(32:14):
and stuff like that and thenplastered the new brand and
different color palettes in eachone, so each one would feel
unique, but part of it, you know.
If you put them all next toeach other, you know it's from
the same craft brewing place.
Jennifer Logue (32:24):
Cool.
Michael McDonald (32:25):
But creating the whole, all the labels was
all done with using Midjourneyand ChatGP and things of that
nature and then just going tophotoshop and illustrator to
refine them.
Jennifer Logue (32:34):
um, how long have I taken without, if before,
you know ai?
How long would that processhave taken an?
Michael McDonald (32:42):
agency I think the largest, probably saw for
them, like for each label, thatyou'll hire an illustrator, an
artist right a, a local artist,and pricing and time would vary
from artist to artist.
Sometimes it would be a week,sometimes a month.
Sometimes you get the person,the artist, on the phone, they
would ghost them or go disappear.
So we eliminated all that notthrowing like AI stole their
(33:06):
jobs there we go.
But we were able to go thereand facilitate and create there
we go.
But we were able to go thereand facilitate and create stuff
almost instantly, within a weekthey were done.
It would have took months, afew months, to do all the labels
because you have to go to allthe different artists and
finding the right artists forthe right job.
In AI I can change the style ofthe art, the look and the feel,
(33:30):
everything about it.
Is it photo-realism, is itillustrations?
Is it like cartoon?
Does it look like it's woodcut?
Is it from the 60s?
Is it futuristic?
I mean you have all thesedifferent attributes you're able
to create and generate on thefly and that's the blessing of
an application in the agenda ofAI mid-journey where you do that
(33:54):
by hand or illustrate it Idon't know if you're familiar
with illustration.
Sometimes it takes days, weeksto create a final piece that's
really edited well, looks great,matches the code.
Then you have client changes.
Here the client will makechanges I like this one, but can
you add another farmer on there?
Or can you, instead of a sunset, can you do a sunrise?
(34:16):
It's like pretty instant, Wow.
And the quality is like.
Over the last year, the qualityof generated AI just has vastly
improved Just within the year.
Wow and that's just a year.
The three years I've been using.
I was doing it.
When you do a little cat and itwould almost look like a little
sponge, you couldn't evenreally recognize it because it's
visually interesting.
(34:37):
Yeah, now it's photorealism.
It's more concise with what youwant.
You don't have 15 fingers on ahand and three eyeballs.
They were literally some of thechallenges, like 90 years ago.
That stuff has been correctedand it's pretty amazing.
Jennifer Logue (34:55):
So, with AI becoming more prevalent in
creative fields, how?
Michael McDonald (35:04):
do you see the role of the artist evolving?
Well, I think it's kind ofviewfold.
You're still going toincorporate tools like Adobe
creative suite.
It should be used as a tool.
It shouldn't be the end, all beall.
Jennifer Logue (35:15):
It's like hey, we're not an.
Michael McDonald (35:17):
AI shop.
We just do AI design.
We use it where it's needed.
There's some applications thatit's really not appropriate,
some things that just doesn't dowell right now.
It doesn't do logos or branding.
The branding strategy is morecanned Like.
The branding.
The branding strategy is morecanned Like.
If you ask for some of thestrategy, you get more canned
approaches, which means everyoneelse can do the same, come up
with the same solution, becausebasically it's doing a Google
(35:40):
search Like these are the here'sthe strategy for coming up with
a craft brew and it's going togo look for case studies.
So they actually want to spitout what's on spell to you,
maybe in some different verbiage, but more or less the same.
So I don't think it's there yet, but it will be in, say, the
next 18 months.
(36:00):
But it really helps enableartists to help explore their
ideas and become, you know,create solutions more
efficiently and effectively.
But a lot of the creativedirection is really going to be
driven by the artist.
You know the design firm or thedesign team that can kind of
really expound on an idea andimplement.
It is always going to be what adesign designer, design firm
(36:21):
will do.
Uh, it's just really knowing howto use that tool to really help
speed things up, or a couplefor ideation.
It's just incredible.
Um and the ideation process.
Is this really I can do thingsalmost instantaneously that it
would take me hours, days,sometimes weeks, to do, to get
over that hurdle, to really getinto like, okay, what is this?
(36:41):
What are the color palette,how's the fonts or what's the
messaging?
There's so many differentlittle aspects that go along to
make something really a gooddesign.
A good design.
Well, this allows you to see alot of blind spots and if you
look at that as I help youfigure that out, I mean it could
really be used as a useful tool.
And not just that, but comingwith ideas and some of the
(37:04):
things you create, it'sabsolutely wild.
It's just every day I blownaway that I was working on
something, I was like, wow, Istill couldn't have created that
, even if I thought I could.
Jennifer Logue (37:15):
Wow, what ethical concerns come up for you
when using AI in art and design.
Michael McDonald (37:24):
The biggest.
Well, I think the biggest thingI think for most people are a
few things it's how originalsomething is, the copyright and
the transparency, usage of bothright.
So like, if we're creatingsomething for someone, we'll
tell them up front, hey, we'regoing to be using AI to assist
(37:44):
us, not to create your wholething, but are they okay with it
?
So you get the client approvalon that.
So we're not like this, givethem ai something.
Yeah, we create this, we'regeniuses.
Now it's it's where ai ishelping us.
The copyright issue, it's thiswhole thing is tricky.
It's a big gray area, eventhough in legal debates right
now, because it's going to bereally I don't know, I don't
(38:08):
think anyone really knows.
I think the latest decision waslike to like, there, really
it's hard.
But if I were to createsomething purely in AI, I'd spit
some out.
Now that's not copyrightable.
But if I go into Photoshop orIllustrator and edit it, it
becomes copyrightable becauseyou actually I think the
copyright law is that you haveto have your hand.
It has to be made by hand,right or by the human.
(38:30):
So getting around that like, isthat loophole?
The loophole's huge.
All you do is change the colorpalette, maybe make it duotone
instead of full color, change acouple of characters and it's
now copyrightable.
So it really becomes theethical question, like, hey, hey
, if you're writing somethinglike, oh, make it look like a
(38:51):
famous artist, right, picasso,I'm using Picasso, because
everyone probably knows Picasso.
But if you use it like in astyle of Picasso, that's where I
think I draw the line.
I don't like using otherartists as references per se.
If the AI decides that, okay, Ithink this is the style I'm
looking for.
I don't like using otherartists' references per se.
If the AI decides that, okay, Ithink this is the style you're
looking for.
But I don't use it as apredictive
(39:14):
all-in-within-a-prompt.
That's kind of cheating andyou're cheating the artist.
And now there's a lot ofwell-known contemporary artists,
both musicians and artists likemake the sound like Dolly Park.
I think that's where you get it.
That's where the gray itbecomes black and white.
It becomes like a slap on thewrist, like you're really
shouldn't be doing that.
I think it's wrong, but it'shappening already.
(39:36):
There's nothing.
The cat's out, you know bags.
So there's nothing no one cando about it.
Um, so it's really got to dowith individuals.
How they feel about this isgoing to be an individual
ethical concern, how they wantto approach it.
I just have a motto adapt,evolve or go extinct.
If you don't really embracethis, you're basically you're
forcing.
No one's going to take a jobfrom you.
(39:57):
You're going to take the jobfrom yourself if you don't
figure out how to make this workfor you in your life.
I'm not saying, you have to doeverything, but it should be an
integral part of how you operateon a daily basis.
You know, like writing,creating music, creating art,
designing, writing copy.
You have that thought.
Why work super hard at it?
Let AI do it and go off doingsomething else that you really
(40:19):
love doing, you know, spendingtime with your family, going out
for a walk, going to see a bandyou want to see, right?
I mean, there are some of thethings that you mentioned that
you enjoy doing.
Spend more time enjoying.
let AI do the stuff that no oneelse wants to do, or it's just
really time consuming and if youlike to do it, I mean, I like
doing research for projects.
But sometimes I do research fora week, like 40 hours of
(40:41):
research.
I can now do that research in afew hours.
Jennifer Logue (40:44):
Yes, and it's probably more efficient, too
Much more efficient.
Do you think AI generated artcompares to human created art in
terms of evoking emotions andcreating connections with an
audience?
Michael McDonald (41:00):
I think it does.
But there's some of the AI artthat already has this canned.
Look to it.
It almost feels templatized.
A lot of it looks repetitive.
There's like, oh yeah, thatlooks like AI, I get it.
But then the whole idea is thetrick Someone doesn't know it's
AI.
It should be seamless, right?
(41:20):
You look at it, that's eithergood or bad, Whereas some of the
AI you know instantly that'sbad AI.
Jennifer Logue (41:25):
Good.
Michael McDonald (41:26):
AI means you know it's-huh that's what I'm
trying to achieve is like how doyou make something like it
doesn't know?
You don't know if it's ai ornot that's a good point I was
just listening to some music.
I think it was suno to googleas a suno thing.
That was ai music and some ofthe some of the lyrics was
(41:47):
creating and sounds like Icouldn't tell the difference.
It was AI that actually created, wrote the sound or actually
sang the song.
I was just dumbfounded like andthen other songs like okay, I
can hear that weird echoeycadence of the voice.
That's definitely AI.
So there's a little telltalesigns to like an experienced
person, either listening thesame thing with visually, but
(42:09):
you can mask those real easy.
Like I said, you go into likean editing tool and you want to
get rid of a reverb, or you wantto add another layer component.
You can then make it morehumanistic, less synthetic or
AI-ish.
I know that it's a loaded termand thought, but there's ways
around it.
I think.
(42:30):
Using it again, using it as atool to really help you hone in
on something.
If you're a writer and you wantto be a music writer, it can
really help you.
You shouldn't sit there andrely on it to write your lyrics,
but it can really help expresslike oh, I want another word
from Void.
Give me 40 different variationsof the voided space between two
(42:51):
ears.
Right, that's your phrase andit may not be the perfect one.
It's going to be that ahamoment Like yep, that's the one
right there.
Let me just add it to like getrid of void and put negativity
there and you have oh, that'sthe new song.
Jennifer Logue (43:07):
I mean a few of my songwriting partners over the
years.
We would always have a rhymingdictionary with us, you know, in
the studio.
Michael McDonald (43:12):
So you actually call a physical one,
like a physical one.
Jennifer Logue (43:14):
I mean, I've been so is that cheating?
Michael McDonald (43:16):
is that is that I mean?
That's exactly.
Jennifer Logue (43:19):
I mean it's, it's another tool, right?
So it's just spur thoughts.
You know, maybe we didn't usethe exact word, but it just got
our brains out of this littlesilo we were in it.
Michael McDonald (43:30):
It was like a trigger for new thoughts, um,
but oh, you, a lot of people, alot of creatives, use drugs,
right, whether it's it's it'smarijuana or it's alcohol or
heavier, to come up with theirideas.
You know, you hear all theselike creative legends, like
during enlightenment drink a lotof coffee and tea, right,
because it it got their brainand gets you ramped up.
(43:51):
Uh, and we're still using,right, I drink a lot.
I'm a very caffeinated person,so I have to do, I have to sit
there and give credit to coffeeand caffeine is like oh, that's
like creative.
There's my creative inspirationyou asked for earlier.
That answers one question.
Is caffeine?
Jennifer Logue (44:08):
caffeinate what's caffeinate?
Michael McDonald (44:10):
what's caffeine?
It's not just like I feel tired, I just love the taste and it
just keeps me energized andgoing.
We all play the same role ineveryday life.
I mean it's all the same thing.
This is no different from usinga computer like my.
My grandfather used a press andhe like changed each type type
letter out there, you know, togo on a Gootberg to write out.
(44:31):
Now they did.
They're like they went to abetter Heidelberg.
Now they're doing digital.
Now it's like now they use here, now they're using their iPhone
or do a brochure.
I mean, at some point, likeyou're sort of thinking and it's
going to spit out and you'reliterally just going to in your
mind.
It's going to melt with thetechnology and just think of an
idea and it just manifestsitself.
Is that cheating?
(44:52):
You know, because you don't haveto put all the hard labor in
and you have to learn how to usethe press.
That's kind of like theargument I have with all these
people that may say, oh, it'scheating.
And well, the computer like thetype, the photographs.
Did you shoot it to come withthe idea?
Did you create the film?
Okay, you're a film person.
Did you actually manufacturethe film about the cameras?
You create all the lenses andall that, like no, you're using.
(45:16):
Basically, that's ai in adifferent type of technology.
It's just that this ai is justmuch smarter than that.
That's where everyone's scared.
Jennifer Logue (45:24):
It's really, really, really smart and we
don't know what to expect either.
Like we don't know where it'sgoing.
Really, it keeps gettingsmarter and smarter, and smarter
, but we don't know.
It's like what's gonna happennext?
It's a-.
Michael McDonald (45:40):
Yeah, I just hope a bad actor comes on scene
and like takes it and like usesit to destroy us.
That's my biggest fear.
That's my fear.
With AI is the the kind ofdestruction mode of some an
actor going there and likesending it on a wild goose chase
and it's going out justdestroying humanity.
Jennifer Logue (45:57):
Oh, let's hope that doesn't happen.
I'm going to be optimistic.
Michael McDonald (46:00):
That's what scares me.
I mean, I'm optimistic about AI, everything but that.
Jennifer Logue (46:06):
I'm just going to hope that we all get led to a
utopia.
I want to be an optimist withit.
Michael McDonald (46:15):
I love that, the way things just go.
Now I don't know about that.
Jennifer Logue (46:19):
On the subject of education, do you think
people should still go to schoolto study art the way you did?
How do you think AI is going tochange the way we create in the
future, and how?
Michael McDonald (46:34):
people prepare for careers in the arts?
Um, I think there's a fewdifferent.
Um, I have a few differentfeelings about that.
Like I you spoke about this alittle earlier is it really
depends on the individual andtheir circumstances?
Um, something considered islike the person's finances,
right, their parents usually theparents and the parents afford
(46:56):
to send them to a college.
Are they mentally andphysically prepared to go to
college and study something?
I don't know what?
Like you're talking about 16thcentury.
You're like hey, I want to be adoctor.
Not everyone knows I want to bea doctor.
I want to be a lawyer.
Not everyone knows who want tobe a lawyer.
Like I kind of knew I wanted toget an artist designer.
When going there I was, luckilyI had that in my head.
(47:17):
Most 16, 17 year olds don't knowthat.
And are they right for that?
Like some people are like, andcan they afford to give up four
to possibly eight years of theirlife going to school, making no
really contribution to societyother than smudging off their
parents or something, orfinancial aid they're going to
have to pay back, or ascholarship, which not many
(47:39):
people get.
It's not for everyone.
Some people just want to be amechanic, right?
I mean, I find that some of myfriends are mechanics Actually
you need a mechanic aremechanics.
Actually, you need a mechanicprobably more than you need a
designer, in my opinion.
It's true my, my friends uphere go from doctors, lawyers,
to like people who own littlerestaurants that sell
cheesesteaks yeah, yeah I don'tcare, because I I mean they make
(48:02):
great food.
You know, it could be fast foodor it could be a really good
healthy meal.
I have a few of those friendsand you know I mean, when I go
on a street sweep on the street,having them at a bar and a beer
, I'll talk to them.
I have no problem.
I don't think I'm better thanthem, but they're making a
contribution, probably morecontribution than some of the
people that are lawyers.
So you have that aspect.
(48:23):
And then you have entrepreneurslike you.
Look at some of the mostsuccessful, uh, wealthiest
people right now.
They're all dropouts fromcollege.
So was college right for them?
you know, I mean, even though Ican't stand the guy elon musk,
he lasted how long?
Six months steve jobs a yearand a half.
Bill gates, I nobody go forlike two weeks and they go out
(48:46):
and start my own business.
I have this great idea and theybecome multi-billionaires.
Um, not that it was easier, itwas some of us luck, but they
didn't.
They didn't finish theircollege.
So who are they or who mighthave reached someone say, you
need to go to college to besomebody, and then now, with ai
here, I don't, I don't know ifyou want to consider going to
(49:06):
college.
Do you need to go?
I mean, ai has democratizedcreativity, education,
information.
It's making the tool reallyaccessible to anyone at a really
low cost.
I mean it costs you can getChachiP4 for 20 bucks a month.
That's like what it's like 50cents a day.
(49:27):
I think most americans canafford that if they want to get
into it and they can figure outwhat they want to do.
They become you almost become abrain surgeon it's pretty wild,
but I mean, it's opening thedoor for anyone.
So if your college isn't foryou, and even you don't become a
mechanic, you don't know, usechat gp to figure out.
You know what you want to do.
You might say, hey, I want todecide, I want to make a new
(49:49):
brick pattern and make bricksfor buildings like I have this
formula that I created, you know, with the help of chat gdp, and
my research is telling me that,that I can make x amount of
money a year doing this, thatsome people's just about money.
That's driven by money.
How much money can I make ayear?
Should be, you know, should Iwork at walmart and I?
Okay, I can make 24 grand ayear versus I?
(50:10):
I can't be a doctor, I don'thave that degree and I'll have,
like the you know um brainsabout it to do it.
Uh, you kind of have to findyour sweet spot.
I think this opens up a lotmore doors and opportunities for
people opens perspective.
Jennifer Logue (50:26):
Um, how do you see ai shaping the future of art
and design?
What's and what's the mostexciting thing for you about the
future of art and design withai of art and design?
Michael McDonald (50:39):
with ai.
I think it's the potential toopen up and transform art design
again by democratizingeducation and like, like
information, like me, like I'vehad and still having, like it's
like I'm a child all over again,exploring things for the first
time.
When I'm working with gender ofai, um, whether it's music art
I'm not really a music personwhen I go play around music,
(51:01):
it's like oh, that's easy, okay,I know how I figured out how
someone else did something, uh,and then I can decide if I want
to pursue it any further.
So I'm not wasting time withall these different pursuits,
right?
Uh, this really doesn't do itfor me, whether it's music or
art or, you know, uh, researchor education.
Some people find a little nichewithin politics and, like they
(51:22):
become a little kind of sidebarreports.
You watch all these people onyoutube.
I'm not saying a lot of themare good, but it's interesting
to see that, like they're notjust some news reporter with 30
years experience telling youwhat you should do or not do, or
vote for and not vote for.
They give a slightly differentperspective and it just opens
your mind and I think this isthe idea of it opening up your,
(51:43):
your mind, uh, and not makingsomeone like we become very
rigid in our age and kind of theway we were brought up and then
our society.
Depending on where you live, youhave this kind of rigid.
You become very rigid in yourthought process and what you
believe and not believe.
This kind of like throws thingswide open and you have to
accept it and be open to it.
(52:03):
I think that's the mostexciting part about AI generally
from my perspective.
I know other people may havedifferent perspectives good, bad
and ugly but I think that iswhere the future is is just
opening up, expanding yourmindset.
Well, thanks for having me, jen.
It's an interesting and funconversation.
Jennifer Logue (52:26):
I've learned a ton and I'm sure listeners will
have a lot more insight when itcomes to how they approach AI
themselves.
Michael McDonald (52:34):
It helps them yeah.
Jennifer Logue (52:37):
And thank you so much for tuning in and growing
in creativity with us.
I'd love to know what youthought of today's episode, what
you found most interesting,what you found most helpful.
You can reach out to me onsocial media, at Jennifer Logue,
or leave a review for CreativeSpace on Apple Podcasts so more
people can discover it.
I appreciate you so much forbeing here.
My name is Jennifer Logue andthanks for listening to this
(52:59):
episode of Creative Space.
Until next time you.
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