Rod Kim On 90s Nostalgia, Songwriting Hustle, and TikTok Fame

Episode Transcript
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Jennifer Logue (00:10):
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode
of Creative Space, a podcastwhere we explore, learn and grow
in creativity together.
I'm your host, jennifer Logue,and today's episode is one I'm
especially excited to share withyou.
Joining me is Rod Kim, atalented songwriter, tiktok

(00:32):
influencer and all-aroundcreative force based in Los
Angeles.
Rod has made a name for himselfin the entertainment industry
by composing music for everyone,from the Philadelphia Phillies
to Google, but his creativitydoesn't stop there.
He's also built a strongpresence on platforms like
YouTube and TikTok, where heconnects with fans as a
self-proclaimed 90s nostalgiajunkie.

(00:53):
In today's conversation, we'lldive into Rod's journey as a
songwriter, his transition intodigital media and his creative
process.
We'll also explore his latestproject, his podcast, rod Kim's
Millennial Sleepover.
Welcome to Creative Space, rod.
So, rod, where are you callingfrom today?

Rod Kim (01:13):
I'm here in my home in Los Angeles, california.
I've been here for close tonine years now.
Here in a couple of months.
I've been here for nine yearsspent.

I've been here for nine years.
Wow, that's incredible.
I have to ask you're originallyfrom my area?
You're from Delaware kind of.

Rod Kim (01:31):
So I did grow up in Indiana but I moved to Delaware
after college for for a day joband then I toured for a while
and then I kind of came back toDelaware.
So Delaware was probablyroughly about a decade of my
life, so it'd be fair to saythat I was from there at some
point.

Cool.
So what prompted your move toLA from the East Coast?

Rod Kim (01:53):
It always kind of been on the radar.
But while I was touring Itoured on and off, even when I
had day jobs for close to acouple decades, and there was
something about this place thatwas, I know there's a creative
energy and I think I don't knowit, maybe it's the weather,
maybe it's the weather and, um,the industry that just draws
people here.
But like I remember, beforemoving here, uh, a friend's

(02:15):
grandparents were trying to talkme out of moving here.
So we went to lunch and theywere like rod, you know, here in
delaware you're, you're a few,you know musicians and creative
people and stuff, and when youmove out there you'll be one of
thousands.
You know, like we won't be ableto get away from them.
And I was like that sounds lesslike a threat and more of a
promise to me, like that soundsawesome.

(02:37):
You know, and I loved the musiccommunity out in Delaware.
I even remember saying at theHomey Awards one year no matter,
I'm great, I was drunk, but Imeant it like whatever happens
from here on out, this was theplace it started, because I mean
I went to school for music inthe midwest and everything, but
like my adult years out of theyou know academic sphere was in

(02:58):
Delaware.
That's where I like cut myteeth that you know the queen
theater and all the coffee shopsand kenneth flash and stuff.
So it started.
And uh, wstw's hometown heroesand stuff.
Like yeah, this is where itstarted.
So like I'll, that will alwaysbe part of my history.
But, that being said, somethingin los angeles like whether it
be the actual creatives or theaudience or the business people

(03:21):
or a combination of everybody,there's a value in um, that
being or belief that that is afull-time gig.
You know because it is,especially when you see how
granular it gets.
Like, um, I don't spend a tonof time on like movie sets and
stuff, but I feel like when youlive here long enough, you just
kind of are somehow, and so Iwas gonna see people like their

(03:42):
responsibility is like paintingthat one rock or something or
that group of rocks over thereand someone else is supposed to
touch up actors, makeups andthings, and everyone's super
important because those are thethings that get made fun of,
right when those movies come out.
And working in music, like Ilike to just call myself a
songwriter and I like being apart of a bigger thing myself a

(04:05):
songwriter and I like being apart of a bigger thing.
I feel like in places wherethere's not as big of an arts
community, you have to be likesongwriter, producer, artist,
you know, I don't know coffeeboy, whatever, and I I feel like
a lot of times songwriters getlumped into like I'm songwriter,
producer, artist.
I'm like no, I'm pretty muchjust a songwriter.
Like I don't sing like I usedto and I'm not great at
producing.
I have friends that are better,faster, you know, and just more

(04:26):
efficient with it.
Um, I have done it, you know,because we all you know we had
to do what we do to survive.
But, um, I like that, like I cancome in and like write for, uh,
music and lyrics if they needthem for a project, and then a
producer is actually going tolike take it and make it its
final product and masteringengineer is going to master it

(04:47):
and artist is going to performit, and then if there's like a
visual component like I workedon an animated, a few animated
things, so like thank god Idon't have to animate stuff, you
know, so those teams all worktogether.

It's been cool like learning how those teams
work it's wonderful being partof a team where everyone brings
their best.
Oh, the right team.
No, that's important.

Rod Kim (05:08):
The right team, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that's a whole other conversation.

Rod Kim (05:11):
Yeah.

But okay, back to songwriting.
What first got you intosongwriting?

Rod Kim (05:19):
You know, I don't think many people like wake up and
say, oh, I want to be asongwriter, yeah, oh, I want to
be a songwriter, yeah, yeah, Ithink in music in general kind
of where it started, because Iremember being a teenager and I
got my first Sony Discman forChristmas and at that time it
was like a fairly largeinvestment for my parents, so
very grateful for that forChristmas.
And then my very first CD Ibought was the CD single for

(05:44):
Joan Osborne's, one of Us.

Yeah, great song .

Rod Kim (05:48):
I love that song and I think it was that and St Teresa
were on the St Teresa was the Bside.
So I listened to those twosongs like until I could afford
the next CD, which I think wasGreen Jelly.
Which is wild to think about,but I remember looking at the
liner notes and I guess up tothat point, so I was probably
what?
12 or 13 by the time I got that.

(06:09):
Before then I just assumed like, um, I don't know Celine Dion
singing that song.
She made it, you know, you're akid.
You don't know, so I'm.
I'm sitting there reading theliner notes for the hundredth
time, you know because, that'swhat you do, that's all you.
That's all.
You only had to look at, andI'm like joan osborne is not
credited at writing this song atall, it was eric bazillion,
who's another philly guy fromhooters, um, and I was like

(06:32):
who's eric bazillion?
And I like looked him up, I waslike, oh he's, he's in a band
too and he wrote some stuff.
And then, as I started gettingmore cds, I started recognizing
names over and over again, like,uh, I think I, you know big
Shania Twain fan because I grewup in central Indiana.

Oh my gosh, I saw for a lot of her albums she
called.

Rod Kim (06:50):
She wrote too, but she collaborated with her then
husband Mutt Lang so.
I started looking for Mutt Langprojects I was like, oh, he did
Back in Black and uh, uh, 18Till I Die by Bryan Adams and
stuff like in the cores, uh.
And then Diane Warren think wasreally my pivotal point,
because there was these massive90s ballads oh, I remember she

(07:14):
was my inspiration as asongwriter.

I wanted to be a songwriter as a kid.
And it was Diane Warren man.
She wrote everything.

Rod Kim (07:21):
I think she's the start of a lot of careers, you know.
And so I saw like, wow, thiswoman wrote how I think she's
the start of a lot of careers,you know.
And so I saw like, wow, thiswoman wrote how Do I Live and
Don't Want to Miss a Thing.
You know everything.
She even wrote some Christiansongs, which is wild.

Oh, I didn't know that Was it.

Rod Kim (07:37):
It was one or two of Michael W Smith songs, you know,
like just beautiful ballads,and so I remember.
Just I would look out on uhliner notes for diane warren
songs, and this is before.
You could look it up on theinternet, you know yeah and, uh,
it's like I want to do that.
And eventually, when I went tocollege for music, um, I
originally uh, went in as acomposition focus.

(07:59):
Uh, to be completely candid, Iflunked out of that program
because that's like classicalcomposition stuff and you know
that's a science.
Um, I was not able to keep upwith.
I'm not too ashamed now to saythat, um, but I always kept that
.
Like songwriting bug like I, Ilove the idea of writing
something and seeing, like anactual artist, artist, like

(08:19):
performing I sang a lot of myown stuff.
That's fine.
But then after college I toureda bunch of my own.
I tried to make a name formyself and everything, and that
was fun.
I just didn't know any otherway to do it, because no one's
interested in Rod Kim songs,because what have I done?
So I figured I'm just going todo it myself and see what

(08:40):
happens.
And then I don't know if youhe's still out in the philly
area.
Richie rubini um no, he foundme.
Um, he's a great producer.
His daughter olivia um, youshould have her on sometime.
She was just on the voice, ohcool she's doing great things
now.
Um, but he was, he produced meat the time and I remember

(09:02):
telling him like, oh yeah, Iwant to demo these songs or
record them, or, if not, demo,record them to try to pitch them
to people and stuff.
And he was like rod, these areartists, songs like these, these
are like you, songs like thisdoesn't apply to anybody else.
I was like okay, good, well,let's put these out and see what
happens.
Um, then I did the band thingfor a little while because I'd
noticed a lot of my friends thatgot publishing deals the kinds

(09:24):
that I wanted were trying to beartists and then when that
didn't pan out, they settledquote unquote for the publishing
deals.

I was like okay, settling for a publishing deal.

Rod Kim (09:33):
Right, what if I just like go for the artist thing,
yeah, and then I'll fall intothe thing I actually want to do.
You know, I'm not one of thoseguys that was like I hated being
a performer artist, I justcould tell it wasn't my
strongest suit Like it took alot of work and a lot of
rehearsal and it was a littlebit less joy than some of the

(10:01):
performers that actually like.
I just interviewed Edwin McCain.
That dude is, you know, adecade older than me and he's
still touring.
Like five years ago I felt thetouring bug leave my body, you
know.
So, like there, there'ssomething about the people who
are just built to give andperform yeah, yeah and I, I just
kept thinking back to likediane warrens in like her
basement with a piano, writinghit songs and just sending him

(10:21):
to aerosmith to go tour with.
You know, like I want to dothat.
Granted, that's probably wayover romanticizing what she
actually does because I've likeliterally run into her in
Hollywood near her office, likenot even spoken, like I actually
just like bumped into her, liketrying to cross the street or
something.
So I know she has an operationthere, you know, and I've talked

(10:41):
to.
Well, by the time this comesout, you'll probably see I have
an interview with Edwin McCainout and he talks about how Diane
so much more than just asongwriter like he's like when
you cut a Diane Warren song youget Diane.
And he was like what I mean bythat is like you cut her song
and then she'll call every radiostation and cuss them out for
not playing it enough and I waslike, Okay, I had no idea that
was a part.

(11:01):
I'm not extroverted enough to dothat.

I didn't realize that part the hustle.
She is hilarious Old schoolhustle.

Rod Kim (11:09):
Yeah, she's awesome, so talented.
But yeah, I think the short ofthe long they said is a lot of
different songwriters, but atthe end of the day, I think
Diane Warren was like the sparkon the fuse.

You know that really like set things off.
Yeah, the spark on the fuse.
You know that really like setthings off.
Yeah, for me it was dianewarren.
It was also because I'm asinger mariah, mariah, yeah
because I would look at all ofher liner notes and I'm like, oh
my gosh, she co-writes allthese songs, like she was the
only singer at the time to dothat and just made me feel so

(11:42):
empowered to see like wow, I cantake my experiences and I can
sing my own songs she's verysimilar to michael jackson where
, like they're not known forplaying instruments

Rod Kim (11:53):
but they're like vocal prodigies, so like there's story
I haven't been in the room tosee this for myself, but there's
stories of like both michaeland mariah like singing parts
out, you know, of like how theywant things to go and that's
like how they write and produce,and I was like, wow, that's a
whole talent itself.
Like I don't have that kind ofI need to like sit and like play
it, you know, to hear it.

For me it just the song, just comes to me
vocally, Like I'll wake up inthe middle of the night with
just like a chorus in my headand I'll put on my and then I'll
put on my and then I'll go tothe piano and figure out what
chords they are yeah, yeah orwhat would work.
But like it's always, melodyfirst, oh, melody, and lyrics
first.

Rod Kim (12:29):
I mean that's great though, because that's the,
that's the core of, you know, agreat pop song, right like you
have to have a good song, and tome that's like melody, and if
there is lyrics, you know, andthen everything else can just
dress it up, as long as it's notdistracting from the bones of
the song.

You're giving me hope, Rod you really are.
Because this is a relativelynew endeavor.
I've been writing.
You know I'm aiming for a songa week.
Right now it's hard, though,because you have your own blocks
that come up.

Rod Kim (13:00):
Yeah.

Like, oh, I'm too old to be doing this now.
Like it's too late, jen, giveit up, it's too late and I coach
other people.
But like I'm being real, I haveto coach myself too, like to.

Rod Kim (13:12):
But it's um, yeah, anyway, not to make this about
me, but no, totally I mean, I Ithink, like I don't want to be
like overly, like forcefullypositive or anything, but I
think we we've experiencedenough collectively as a society
in the last few years to knowthat like, well, literally
anything's possible.
That goes both ways, you know,like that's true.
Um, so, like I don't know, evenbefore I moved out here, I

(13:36):
remember, uh, a gal that used toplay delaware, um, dewey beach
music conference and stuff a bit, was rachel platten, you know,
and then, yes, she had a massivehit with fight song and stuff
yeah, I was in a um songwritingclass with her oh nice at bmi,
that's awesome she's have youmet her.
She's so kind, oh my gosh, weplayed opposite stages because

(13:57):
remember dewey beach when thestages would just flip from one
side of the rusty rudder to theother oh yeah so I played the
opposite stage and then when myset ended, like hers would start
, her and craig would be playing.
And uh we?
It just so happened, time out,that the first jan the january
when her album release had fightsong on it happened she was
doing like a meet and greet inlos angeles like two months

(14:20):
after I'd moved here I rememberlike going to that meet and
greet.
it was like me and a bunch oflike teenage girls and like I
remember getting to the front ofthe line and Rachel was like
shut the up but then her, her,like entourage, you know, I
think I think it was like aradio Disney event.
They were like whoever this guyis get them out of here, he's

(14:40):
making he's making her curse infront of all these children.
But we got to talk a little bitlater at the grammy museum and
uh, she, she said like you knowif you ever go back to or I
asked her if I go back to deweybeach to play music, the music
conference.
They're like what to telleverybody?
She was like tell them thatthere's no expiration date and
one song can change your life.
Because I bring her story upbecause we were talking about

(15:03):
like being too old or whatever.
She was in like her mid 30swhen fight song hit and like
that's not old.
But as far as a pop star, youknow, especially for a female
pop star, that used to be like areally young game, like teenage
young game you know.
And so for her, and why can't Iremember the?
There's a gal that is a countryartist that one of my friends

(15:26):
produced.
I should know his name, oh Cam,right around the same time had
kind of like blown up and shewas very similar age and I was
like, well, this is really coolBecause you know a song like
Fight Song, it's a great popsong, but also like I feel like
it means something more comingfrom like someone in their mid
30s than you know, not thatteenagers don't have tough

(15:48):
experiences, but they'redifferent.
You know, so it's different forsomeone who had their very first
album as a 16 year old sayinglike I'm going to fight for this
.
We're like, ok, sure that'sgreat.
To someone who'd been giggingfor a decade or more.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, trying tomake it happen.

Oh, that is one of my favorite songs.
It's so, you know, and thatwhole journey she was on was so
worth it.
Yeah, yeah, if only for thatone song, because it's impacted
so many people too.
Yeah, like people withdifferent kinds of fights,
they're fighting.

Rod Kim (16:25):
Yeah, I remember talking toig after they ushered
me away from her on that meetand greet uh, her long-time
drummer and they were.
He was telling me like how alot of times when they get you
know those like kind of likewhen you start with like a hit
song, uh, that got you yourrecord contract, you kind of
have to play the game until youget to do the message you want
to make you know like you haveto do, like message you want to

(16:45):
make you know like you have todo like just you know, like
dance, music or whatever likeyou know really broad topics.
He's like that team was luckyenough to do something with
substance to begin with.
You know there wasn't like acompromise.
At the beginning of theirmessage it was like no, like
this is her genuine truth waslike.
You know every word of thatsong.
You understand it, yeah.

It's been two years and you know people at
home are worried about me.
Yeah, every word of that song.
I think any musician canidentify with like yeah, and
just anyone going through anykind of struggle, like a health
struggle, you know, like um,anyway, music can change the
world.
It really can.

Rod Kim (17:25):
Yeah.

So it's a good reminder for all of us, totally
so what was it like gettingestablished in LA as a
songwriter?

Rod Kim (17:37):
It's still happening.
I want to be like reallytransparent about this, because
this is my pet peeve.
Whenever I meet like successfulcreators and stuff, I always
ask this question is what wasthe middle like?
Because I feel like everyoneleaves that out.
Um, because I remember coming tola and then like, or even
before la, I mean, you've beento enough music conferences that
you'll see someone who's likewon grammys and stuff.
And they'll always tell, likethe beginning, like ah, I was a

(17:59):
teenager and then I left homeand I was homeless and I got
evicted, blah, blah, and then Iwon a grammy.
I was like, okay, that's cool,uh, but the most valuable part
for us is what happened inbetween, because all of us, I
think, are we made the leap fromthe first thing right that's
why we're in some place like la,or even if we're not.

(18:19):
If you're not in la, if you hadeither taken less hours at your
day job or quit your day job todo music or whatever, like that
was the leap.
But you're also not, likenominated for a grammy exactly
we're all in between whathappens, and I haven't quite
pinned down why people areembarrassed to talk about that.
Either it's like there's someunsavory stuff happening there,
or just embarrassed about whatyou had to do.

(18:40):
Um, so my middle right now islike just doing like I think
neil gaiman said it in his uhcommencement speech actually the
philadelphia, yeah, um, he, uh.
He said, like you know, youkind of see, your main goal is
kind of corny, but everything iscorny.
So, like you see, your maingoal is like a mountain and like

(19:01):
every decision you make is likeis that going to take me closer
or farther away?
and the same thing on adifferent day could change that
definition, and so I that's kindof how I'm living now is like,
even like this tick tock stuff.
It's not where I saw myself,you know, a decade ago or even

(19:22):
three years ago, you know, um,because at the time especially,
I saw it as like this dancingapp, you know, and I helped
other musically and tiktokinfluencer friends do their
dances on tiktok and things.
I just it was never a space forme and then one night I got
high and started talking aboutnight 90s music and it popped
off.
But I feel fortunate becauseit's it's something I do anyway.

(19:43):
The only thing that's differentnow is I hit record first and
you know, if anybody's ever seenin one of my tick tocks, know
that, like that's pretty much it.
That's just me laying on thiscouch behind me, uh, with my cat
lucy that you can't see becauseshe's black and uh, I just kind
of talk and the most that'skind of happening with it is

(20:03):
like later on, when I'm kind oflike in a little more clearer
mind, I kind of like edit itdown a little bit so it's a
little less rambly, um, but Italk like that anyway to people.
In fact, my whole life peopletold me to stop talking as much
about music I liked, uh, becauseno one cared, turns out 9.1
million care?

Yeah, exactly no people do, it's just you hadn't
found your audience.

Rod Kim (20:28):
Yeah, yeah and so, yeah , I'm still doing that now, but
also being open to those things.
So I say that thing aboutTikTok because, like well, this
still feels natural.
I don't see like how this fitsin the puzzle, but it doesn't
feel wrong.
So I just like I just keptdoing it for a while, especially

(20:49):
during the historic Hollywoodstrikes last year.
It at one point was makingenough money to replace my
income that I had lost from thestrikes.
I'm not part of SAG or WGA, butyou know, when stuff isn't being
made in la, that trickles downto everybody music, caterers,
everything.
So, um, that was covering that.

(21:11):
But then, like I so somethingabout entering my 40s made me
like really not care aboutanything really and I've said
that.
I feel like people said thatand I've said that in my younger
years this is the first decadeI really mean it I like, like,
or I really know what that feelslike, because I feel like in my

(21:32):
20s I really cared what peoplethought.
In my 30s I said I didn't care.

But you did kind of side a little bit.

Rod Kim (21:38):
You know, in my 40s, like I don't know, like if you
see me out at the mall gettinggroceries, like I look like an
elderly asian woman, you know,like my hair is up and up on,
I'm in like sweats, I'm notcarrying cat food and you know,
um, and so that that goes withthis.
So, like that day, I decided tostart talking about the stuff
on tiktok.
I was like, okay, I don'treally care, because before
people would tell me like no,you're wrong, like you

(21:59):
interpreted that song wrong, oryou interpreted what they were
trying to do with that chordprogression wrong, or that
harmony selection wrong, andthat's why I shouldn't talk
about it, I stopped caring.
So I just say it now on tiktok,and now, by proxy, the other
social medias, these either theartists and or the, the writers
of these songs, have juststraight up either dm'd me,
duetted my videos, commentedsaying that I'm right yeah I.

(22:24):
I love it that there there'sbeen a couple times where even
people in the comments who don'tknow me will just say like no,
that's clearly not what theymeant.
And then the artists will comein like no, he's right, that's
what I meant I was like okay sohere I mean I'm not 100,
obviously, but like I'm a lotmore right than I thought I was,
and that it's a really long wayof saying like somehow that

(22:45):
reputation about me talkingabout songwriting on TikTok has
helped me establish a reputationas a songwriter, because now
there's these establishedsongwriters, like really
established songwriters are likeno, he got it, like people
hadn't.
I mean, I guess, to tease my myown podcast, like I'm doing in,
I have a uh episode with edmundmccain that I think, by the

(23:07):
time this is out, will alreadybe out.
Um, the big centerpiece of thatinterview is that on my tiktok
I had made a speculation aboutone of his biggest song.
I'll be, you know it's as a kidI remember being like that's a
wedding song.
Right, it's perfect.
He wrote that as a wedding vowsor whatever.
And then I listened to it in my40s and I was like I don't have

(23:28):
any actual evidence for thisother than vibes.
But and also just being a guythat's lived four decades and
made these mistakes, this songsounds like not a wedding song
but a song of a desperate manwho really messed up and is
trying to make it up to hispartner.
And I was right he dm'd me.

(23:49):
He was like yeah, he's like I.
I wrote it about a woman who Iknew would leave me and she did.
And then in his interview hegoes on for a lot.
It goes so much deeper.
This song was not born from abeautiful romance.
It was so many things in hislife were like going wrong and
he said that the song ended upbeing like a prayer for himself,
like I don't know I, I I'm notjust trying to abbreviate it to

(24:12):
tease the podcast.
It is a little bit, but I, Ijust wouldn't be doing it
justice to try to summarize ithere, where you want to hear it
from him yeah, and also he alsosays so much more insight about
it, like.
And then, once you hear him talkabout it and then you go back
and listen to the song, you'relike, yeah, okay, so this does
fit as superficially like youcan sing at a wedding, there's
still nothing wrong with that.

(24:32):
But now when you hear, likewhat he went through when that
song was being written, you'relike wow, like that's so much,
you know so much more, you knowso much more.
So things like that have reallyhelped me inadvertently become a
little bit more established.
You know, I still don't feellike I'm established.
I think I'm far from that.

(24:52):
I'm right in the middle.
But I'm happy with the journey.
But I guess just that, goingwith my gut feeling of like well
, this isn't what I planned on,but it doesn't feel wrong, so
let's just see where it goes,you know.

But it doesn't feel wrong.
Yeah, like I've, I'm, but itdoesn't feel wrong.
So let's just see where it goes.
You know, but it doesn't feelwrong.
Yeah, like I, I've.
I'm not sure if you've everfelt this like I have a major
guilt complex not to be tmi, butwhenever I deviate from my path
, like with music, I deviatedfrom the path to do
entertainment, journalism,because I needed to make money,
I was in new york like I musicwasn't making me money and I had

(25:24):
an opportunity to interview allthese celebrities on the red
carpet like Stevie Nicks and TomJones, and I'm like, okay, I'm
going to do this, and then itended up turning into a
different career for me.
I still made music on the side,but my attention was slightly
All my attention wasn't on music.

(25:45):
Now though, if that makes anysense, it was like kind of
divided, and sometimes I grapplewith like is that part of the
process, the journey?
Do we embrace thoseopportunities?
Because I always look back,sometimes like what would have
happened if I just never lost myfocus for music.

(26:07):
People have differentperspectives on it, like I think
.
Some see it as and I see this aslike one thing outlet feeds
into another yeah like studyingacting made me a better
songwriter yeah, definitely likemy, you know, but anyway, what
are your thoughts on that?
Do you ever feel like conflictbetween tiktok and podcasting

(26:29):
and writing songs and all ofthat?

Rod Kim (26:32):
so right now the the only thing that really feels
like kind of a bit of like umlabor and it is labor of love is
the podcast part.
Just because I'm new at it,like this Edwin McCain episode
is gonna be the second, so likeI'm still very much like cutting
my teeth on it and buteveryone's made me feel really
comfortable with it, even theall American rejects.
If you watch that interview, I'mon script for about 20 seconds

(26:55):
and then I just break and I'mlike I don't know what I'm doing
, like I'm not an interviewerand stuff.
And then they just jumped rightin there with me like good,
because we're not, really, likewe don't, we want to make music
too, you know.
So we're just in here doing theinterview.
So we just kind of like bondedover that.
But I made a little on my, my42nd birthday a couple weeks ago

(27:15):
.
I made a little kind of likevideo post on my Instagram.
You can go look at it.
It's called I have no idea whatI'm doing and I think where I'm
fortunate is that I'm I saythis lovingly to myself dumb
enough that I never really hadthe opportunity to veer too far
off.
I'm just terrible at everythingexcept a lot of things.

(27:36):
And so you know, ask anybodyhas ever employed me for a non
music gig.
They probably won't have greatwords about me, and it's not for
lack of trying, like I've triedto do several things um,
non-music related to the day,jobs and stuff, because once you
know, we need to pay bills andstuff you need to pay bills and
it's just gone terribly.
I've gotten fired or let go orlike really you know, pushed to

(27:58):
leave, um, and I remember thelast day job I had, you know,
was in delaware and I rememberlike putting in my I don't even
know those two weeks.
I think I put in my two weeks.
Now you can just go now andwalking down to, uh, the bar at
the queen theater that was atthat time world cafe, and my
friend megan, if you'relistening to this, she was
bartending that day and she waslike, well, it's open during

(28:22):
lunch, but it's odd to seesomeone at like noon come in for
a drink, and so she was likeeverything okay right, I'm like,
um, I just quit my job to justgo do music full-time, because
it doesn't.
I don't see myself doing thatdoing the other thing.
I see myself doing music, butit doesn't make sense because I

(28:43):
literally don't know how I'mgoing to pay next month's rent
now.

Yeah yeah, no that that sounds familiar, yeah
and so there's just like uh.

Rod Kim (28:53):
But then the other part of it is I think I was talking
to my brother about this.
You know, we're me and mybrother are the first uh of our
family to be born in the Stateswe have this immigrant kid
hustle.
We don't have options.
We've just always survived.
I think that's part of it.
I can't tell you exactly.
I'd have to look back andactually see what happened and
how I'm still here right now.
It's just always worked and Ihaven't really had to compromise

(29:18):
a ton, I don't think.
But at the same time I'm notlike rolling in it, like you
know, like I think the biggestdirty little secret about la is
everyone's broke except rihannaand I don't even care anymore,
you know yeah like we're alljust like the next gig from not
making it you know, or making itor whatever you know, and um,

(29:38):
not making it, you know, ormaking it or whatever you know,
and um.
So yeah, I the tiktok stuffreally hasn't taken my focus off
of things too much, if anything.
It's kind of helped me focusstuff.
That's why I didn't feel wrong,because at the end of the day,
like I think that takes me fiveminutes before I go to bed you
know, because the video is liketwo minutes and and it's just me
doing what I normally do andevery suggestion from every

(29:58):
expert ever has been like well,you should get better lighting
and better microphones and andstuff.
And I'm like listen, man, Itried that for 10 years.
I've been on youtube for 10years more now and that was okay
.
I mean, I have like 25 000subscribers or whatever on there
, but it didn't.
I have friends that have like10 million, you know.
So that just wasn't it for me.
This thing me laying in bed inthe dark using my camera phone,

(30:23):
the front camera of all thingsis the only thing has had.
I have almost a quarter of amillion followers now on tiktok
from that, you know.
So I was like I don't know, butthis seems to be working and
it's not for lack of equipment,because I have video and you
know equipment, especially soundequipment.
The microphone is not the issue.
I have many expensivemicrophones.
This is just what, and you'realso just getting me and not

(30:47):
like a highly researched script,and you know there's people
that do that, my friend PatrickHicks, if you kind of like what
I do.
But you wished I researchedstuff.
Look at Patrick, he needs tohave his own NPR show or
something.

Oh cool.

Rod Kim (31:03):
He's a thorough music historian.

He's a great storyteller oh, that's cool.

Rod Kim (31:07):
And that's him.
That's not me, though.
I'm not a good scholar, so I'mjust going off of memories I had
from high school and college,you know.

Yeah, but that's relatable.

Rod Kim (31:16):
Yeah.

You know, and I think we all want people we can
relate to.
That comes into, that factorsinto whether or not I follow
someone.
It's like oh, I totally canrelate where they're coming from
, like you see yourself in otherpeople sometimes.

Rod Kim (31:32):
I remember songs I loved from high school all the
time, multiple times a day.
So to just do that and talk outloud and hit record is like a
very minimal extra effort to doit.
So I I've been lucky in thatsense.
I guess that's.
The long answer again to thisis like I feel the distraction
has been kind of minimal.
The only other things are likewhen I help friends on like film
set stuff, but that's less oflike and they do pay me, so

(31:54):
that's nice, that's extra incomeand stuff.
But that's never been that Ican remember at least.
Like where I've, like, made themost of my financial income and
stuff, because it's just likeoh, my friend's making a movie
and they need someone to carry alight from here to there, yeah,
I'll show up for a few hoursand help and they're great, you
know, and I'm sure they would dothe same for me if I needed
something.
Um and otherwise is it's justbeen like really figuring out

(32:20):
the gig, like how to, how to getit, and I've I don't even know
if this is correct or the bestway.
Something stuck with me eversince I was a little kid.
I remember being like seven oreight years old standing in the
grocery store line with my dad,and I don't even know if my dad
told me this or I just made itup in my head, but I remember
just being in the long groceryline and made it up in my head,
but I remember just being in thelong grocery line and then,
when the other registers openedup, people you know would like

(32:41):
sprint yeah the other registersand, for whatever reason, me and
my dad would just, we juststood at the one we were at and
then, before I could blink, wewere next, because everyone else
left and then I think I juststuck with the rest of my life,
my process, because then when Imoved to la, I remember my
friends that had like succeeded,like they retired in their mid
20s, you know, or something Ijust said the secret here is to

(33:03):
just stay, just hang, becauseeveryone will leave and this
work is still here.
I did not know that a globalpandemic would do a lot of that
work for me, so I stayed, and nohate to anyone that had to take
off and take care of what theyneed to take care of.
Um, I stayed both out ofnecessity because where am I
going to go, and also I love ithere and when all the

(33:28):
songwriters left town that were,you know, were 10 times more
experienced than me.
Uh, they left town.
I kind of swooped in and filledthe gaps and I remember one of
my friends who was a businessperson in that world, uh said,
like you know, right, but thething is like the catch is the
budgets are like slashed to like10 percent of what they were.

(33:49):
I was like, well, good, because, well, that's fine, because
obviously I don't have thedecades of experience these
other guys do, but at the sametime like 10 percent of their
budget is still like a livablewage for me yeah you know um.
So that's what I did and I justkind of kept hustling and
answering phone calls.
And my friend mari has theslogan that I also live by show
up and don't be an yeah so greatadvice unless I have an actual

(34:12):
excuse, you know, like a healthrelated thing or something.
Like I can't just be, like I'mtired, um, I'll just go, I'll go
tired and then try my best tonot be an asshole.
Yeah, yeah, and it's just beenthat on repeat for the last few
years, and now I'm here, so I'mhoping to keep that up as long
as possible.

That's awesome.
Now you're the right person toask about this.
How has the role of asongwriter changed in this
digital age that we're in?
There's so much content out allthe time.
We're streaming songs onspotify, like.
How do you see the role of asongwriter evolving from, like,
the time when we were kids?

Rod Kim (34:51):
I mean, obviously, the social media thing is like a
weird little wild card.
Um.
So for me it's like songwritingis like two buckets, and right
now I'm in the the latter thatI'm going to explain, but the
first one I think most peoplethink of is like oh, diane
warren.
She writes for leanne rhymes andaerosmith I I, I want to retire
, like that right now.

(35:11):
I have to be.
If I have to be honest toeverybody, like that's like five
percent of my work, like I'mnot a renowned pop songwriter,
I'm, I'm trying to work, youknow, on that and work.
I worked with a lot of umtiktokers who became singers,
kind of anonymously.
Um uh, you know, I sold myrights to them and stuff that

(35:32):
has become what?
What has changed there fromwhen we were kids was that the
new music we listened to as kidsis now the retro music.

I'm producing, I'm writing for these oh, that's
so funny, that's so funny.

Rod Kim (35:44):
And so what I was for the middle years of my life,
what I was doing was so outdated, is now current again, or like
are you kidding really?
So good.
I remember, like in my you knowmid-20, like you know even 30s
and stuff, people say like Rod,that's like so 99 or 2002.
And now it's like Rod, that'sso 99 and so 2002.

(36:06):
You know.

Because the thing is I haven't changed the
way I write songs, Like I'mstill old school because I grew
up on, you know, the Mariahs andthe Dianes and I would get that
with my first EP Like, oh, itsounds kind of a little dated.
The way songs are a little bitdifferent.
Now it's retro now.
I never thought of it that way.
Yeah, man.

Rod Kim (36:29):
Pop punk has had a huge resurgence.
All American Rejection didtheir comeback.
That's why I got to do thepodcast with them Dope.
Then the other bucket is the95% of my time is.
There's like the commercialmusic stuff, right, ads and TV
pilots and YouTube shows andcorporate stuff, and that's
primarily I spend a lot of mytime in right now, specifically

(36:52):
the last year and a half,because from mid 2020 to I guess
like 2022, I was doing a lot ofartist stuff.
You know um, work for hire, um,and you know just kind of
working anonymously and stuff,um, but having fun and getting
paid and uh.
And then there was I want tosay that my new year's

(37:16):
resolution for 2023 was likethis year I'm gonna make money
and so I uh went and like wrotefor as many like ad projects as
I could and uh, library you knowmusic libraries and stuff.
And and then last fall Iactually right about this time,

(37:37):
I got a call from like a huge adagency and they had the biggest
order of music I'd ever had inmy entire life.

Wow.

Rod Kim (37:44):
And I just said yes because there was no other
option, you know.

Yeah.

Rod Kim (37:50):
And so this company.
I had done 30 songs for themfor various ads in the past
through three separate contracts, so 10 at a time.
This is the last one In thesame amount of time.
I had to do 120 whoa, so thatequaled.
That equaled out to I had abouttwo and a half months to do it.
That equaled out to me having todo four, I think four or five.

(38:10):
I might somebody's going to dothe math and see them wrong, but
I remember at the time it was,I had to do like four or five
completed songs a day, sevendays a week for a while, and I
think I just gave myself a breakduring Christmas, um, but like,
I just like, learned throughthe process and I'm still not I
don't even want to sound likeI'm a professional that work.
I'm still learning now, likethe how that all works, um, but

(38:36):
for me at least, I think that'schanged in the sense of like,
because of digital and all thesedifferent media types and stuff
, there's like these weirdopportunities for me to write
music for commercials that Idon't know if all of them went
on TV Most of them probably justwent on YouTube ads and
Facebook reels and you know,like, and even if they did tell

(38:56):
me what it was for, there wereso many of them that I forgot in
a week.
You know, like, they tell melike, sure, sure, that's great,
I got to move on to the nextthing.

Now, are these all like songs with someone
singing?
Are you producing?
Are some of these songs likecompositions when it's like more
background?

Rod Kim (39:13):
Most of them are not with lyrics.

Okay.

Rod Kim (39:18):
Unless there was a specific ask for it.
It it's a mix betweenbackground to like very
foreground, because you know yousee commercials sometimes and
it's just music uh you know orand so stuff like that, or like
they want stuff with music.
And then the middle 10 seconds,the.
The volume is not supposed toget lower, but the energy is
supposed to get lower, so therecan be a voiceover for this part

(39:39):
, or something there was somecorporate work I did that.
It was like all percussionbecause it's just like these um
pitch decks where like stuff isflying in off screen, so it'd be
like you know, polyrhythmicstuff happening here and
everything.
And it was like for me it waswild because percussion was my
weakest subject in school.
So I was like, well, you'regonna have to brush that up now

(39:59):
and thank god for digital.
You know, I can highly edit this, yeah awesome, um, so you're
forced to learn when you get aproject you know and I've been
doing music for, because I'vebeen in the youtube world so
long for various forensicyoutube shows and stuff and like
that whole market just didn'texist when we were kids, you
know like youtube shows oh mygosh, and they have full budgets

(40:22):
, you know, and so it's, it'sbeen great, or even the, even
the five percent.
I mentioned the artist stuff Iwas doing with those tick
tockers.
Yeah, I wouldn't have been ableto write music for tick tock
stars because they couldn'tbecome tick tock stars before
you know, a decade ago.
And I'm not gonna lie and saylike all of them are going to
become classics or even areremembered now.

(40:43):
But like, yeah, that's, it'scool to at least be creative for
that time for them and me bepart of that.
You know, like kind of relivesome of my youth a little bit,
be excited about pop, punk, likethe first time again you know,
yeah, it's cool.

I mean you're showing that there's so many
opportunities for songwritersnow, but they're not the
traditional opportunities thatwe think of yeah, I think, yeah,
that kind of happened byaccident, or maybe it's natural,
but I just wasn't aware of it.

Rod Kim (41:10):
So it's less accident, it's just I didn't know what was
going on.
I was just trying to figure itout, but, um, yeah, I.
Something that is conscious ofme, though, is, uh, I tend to
hang out a lot of spaces whereit's not just musicians.
Yeah because, like it's what isthis saying?
Like look not for a needle in ahaystack, but with other
needles you know so like or no.

(41:33):
That's you know.
I just completely defeated myown point.
That's.
That's the opposite of what Iwas trying to say.
I just completely defeated myown point.
That's the opposite of what Iwas trying to say.
My point there.
This is why I don't publicspeak.
My main point there was likeother musicians not that they
don't need other musicians, butlike I'm not trying to sell a
record or I don't know how toput this, because I do do that,

(41:55):
like we do with other musiciansum, like a showrunner for a new
show, if they already are amusician or are know them,
they're not looking.
So okay, that's a better way toput.
I'm thinking about it out loud.
I'm going where people arelooking for musicians or
songwriters and, um, that's howI get called a lot of times is

(42:19):
like we meet up or a lot of it'sword of mouth.
I worked on one project and wasnot an asshole.
So someone told me you know butI just don't as much anymore.
I don't subscribe as much to.
Let's go to this meeting that Ihad to pay pay 50 to go to to
meet another musician with myexact same skill set, you know,

(42:41):
and it's nice to meet friendslike that, oh yeah, for sure but
business wise, it was like Idon't know a whole lot about
business, but I was like Iprobably shouldn't go where
there's, like you know, not aneed exactly go where the need.

Is that no?

Rod Kim (42:55):
it makes complete sense .
Complete sense I mean, Iremember like one of my biggest
gigs now is not biggest anymore,but at the time it was the
biggest was because I was atlunch with a bunch of tech guys
and they needed something.
Like that day and I happen tobe at lunch and like, oh, rod's
a writer it's like, could you dothis?
I was like I'm about to findout, so let's go for it.

(43:16):
You know, and that's somethingyou just can't plan for.
I remember specificallystanding at the corner and
either going back to my hotelroom to take a nap or turning
the other direction and going tolunch with these guys.

Wow.

Rod Kim (43:27):
That's the trajectory of my last few years, you know.

Wow.
So this is creative space and Ilove asking this question of
everyone.
But what is your definition ofcreativity?

Rod Kim (43:40):
Oh man, for me it's like I don't know if this too
cheesy.
I told this to other.
The almost anybody I had towork with in long term is like,
when you don't have any otherchoice, you know, it's just who
you are Like.
I've heard this, I forget whoeven told me this before.

(44:00):
But they said you know, youdon't get in the mood to be
creative, you just are, and thatshould bleed through in
everything.
So even if you are forced to doa day job or something, there's
something where you can ventthat part of you out.
You know.
So like, obviously we have a lotof friends of music that work
at coffee shops and stuff, andour artists and work at coffee

(44:23):
shops and stuff, and so they'lllike their little event, their
little outlet is to like do theboard, where they can draw a
little bit or something you knowor I don't know how that comes
out in other spaces.
So for me it's like I can't doanything else and so even even
on social media, I'm not reallya video editor or a filmmaker or
anything.
Granted, I've absorbed a lot ofvarious skill sets from just

(44:47):
being here.
But on my birthday I rememberlaying in bed thinking, oh, I'm
42.
This is an interesting space tobe in and I just kind of had
some images in my head and, eventhough I'm not necessarily a
visual artist, I was like I wantto make this thing, yeah.
So I got on adobe premiere andI pulled some clips together.
I pulled some music that Ihadn't used for other things and

(45:08):
then I, I uh did a littlevoiceover thing for it.
I was like I have no idea whatI'm doing, you know, and uh, so
that little thing like it, eventhough I'm not a filmmaker, like
I wanted to make that littlething, or even a video maker,
necessarily, I want to make thatlittle thing as a one-off.
You know, that's not a weeklypost, yeah.

(45:29):
So to me, being creative isjust like there's I don't know
what it is, is, it's some partof you that, um, something
outside is attracting out of youor that you need to get out.
It's just.
It's not even just a state ofbeing.
I think it's just like if you,if you are, you know it is just

(45:52):
who you are, you know, like it'syou.

I think we're all creative.
I think we all have this muscleof creativity right, and I
think some of us use it morethan others.

Rod Kim (46:02):
Yeah.

You know, and even everyday people who may not
work in creative jobs.
I think they need to find waysstill to be creative in their
lives, to be happy, to find thatfulfillment, Because some of
the happiest people I know havethe most boring day jobs.

Rod Kim (46:18):
Yeah.

But they're creative, like they're amazing
chefs, you know, or they lovedecorating their house, or they
plan the most epic trips whenthey go on vacation, like things
like that.
Like that's how they exercisetheir creativity, like outside
of work.
But it's I like what you said,it's the essence of who you are
Like.
Your medium is like you.

Rod Kim (46:40):
There's something about it.
It's like trying to contain fogor something you know like
don't know, I don't know how todo it.
That sounds really pretentious,it's just.
But it's just like, really true, like I um, yeah, I don't know.
And like you said, creativityis not limited to like arts.
I mean, it's a heavy thing.
There.
I have friends that areaccountants that love it, which

(47:00):
is great.
We need more people like thatyes, um and I even told my
friend that you know, that is auh, I think.
I think he's an accountant Idon't know like what the levels
are, but he just gets reallyexcited talking about numbers
and I'm like if I ever makeenough money, I need someone to
manage it.
You are the guy, because Itrust you and you love it you
love it, you're passionate aboutit.

Yes, for sure you have to be creative.
To be I mean, I'm not sureabout being in a well, no
accounts could be creative.
There's probably something inthere.

Rod Kim (47:30):
I don't understand, you know.
So I'm just I don't understandit either, so I can't you know,
but I feel like there's an artto everything yeah if you're
passionate about it yeah, it'strue, even yeah, I watch some of
my social media friends who are, um for lack of better words
they're like, they're when youthink of, when you think of like
influencer or social mediacreator.

(47:50):
Because you can't pin down,like what they do.
I feel like even a decade ago,you could say like, oh, they're
a music creator or they're afood creator.
There's a bunch of friends Ihave.
Now it's like ah, they dotiktok.
I don't know our short form, Idon't know how else to explain
it.
They do whatever it takes tomake money there and they just
know that like they'll go,they'll do a bunch of and it's

(48:12):
you know, when you see it, youknow, like when you're scrolling
through short form videos andstuff, like who comes up with
this stuff?
Some of my friends like wow,but but that's their creativity
is like actually one of them isactually he has a master's in
some music stuff, so he's even ahigher level musician than me,
but he doesn't use any musicstuff in his country um, so
there's like, yeah, that littleI don't see him doing.

I can't picture him not doing the social media
thing because he's just so likein it, you know so I think this
is the second interview where Ibrought up my neurologist,
because people who listen to thepodcast know that I have
epilepsy but I've been seizurefree since I've gone on medicine
, so grateful for that.
But my neurologist, he's likeone of the top epileptologists

(48:58):
in the country and he has allthese patents and everything and
he's also like like a reallyhigh-level upright bass player.
He performs like in orchestrasand he had the choice between
going to medical school or goingfor music, and he ended up
going to medical school becausehe wanted to make an impact.

(49:20):
You know it because he's reallysmart, yeah, and like he still
has a passion for music.

Rod Kim (49:27):
But it's interesting how, uh, how creative people are
I mean, that is something elselike this and there's no shame
in doing something else.
In fact, I remember the head ofthe music department my very
first freshman orientation atcollege saying like if you can
see yourself doing anythingother than music, do that,

(49:48):
because there's probably more ofa need for it and it'll be less
heartache for you it'll beeasier.
Like we, the music program I wasin I was a contemporary music
program people literally leftthat program to do literal
rocket science.
Because, like music's tough,you know.
Like, yeah, not only like, uh,music theory sometimes a little
bit of a hurdle for people, butalso like the practicing you

(50:11):
can't cram for a final in piano,you just have to have kept up
with it for a year.
Um, but also like, yeah, itemotionally just takes a lot
from you because there's a lotof devalue with a devaluation of
it.
Um, so, yeah, like no, no, likeI wish I could be a doctor.

(50:31):
Like my mom, you know my Asianparents he's like you should be
a doctor, they want me to be adoctor or a lawyer.
And then, like my mom, you know, had to come to grips with that
on happening early on, when she, you know, she knew my whole
life that I'm a really bad liar.
So like law probably was notgoing to be in the cards.
And then you know, I think oneof the first times she took me
out to get like my blood drawnfor something as a kid and I
like vomited or passed out she'slike oh, I guess that's not

(50:53):
gonna be in the cards either,you know so oh my gosh.

But you're doing so many cool things and you
know, life is about experience.
You're getting to experienceall these cool.
You're getting to use yourtalents in different ways and
touch people like that's so much.
Everyone has their own path.

Rod Kim (51:13):
Yeah, we all have, you know and I appreciate that, you
know, because I I don't seemyself in any other way.
At the same time, like I'veI've said this on social media
before, just in posts betweenfriends and stuff I, I want you
to be good, anybody else, I wanteveryone else to be good,
because then I'm good.
So it's a little bit selfish toobecause, then, like I know, on

(51:35):
the micro level that means I'mnot worried about everyone you
know close to me, but then alsolike on the close to me, but
then also like on the theworldwide level I'm I'm not as
concerned about like people kindof like popping off because
something didn't work.
You know, like I'm not going toname any national tragedies, but
you know people know I'mtalking about these things where

(51:55):
people are just they haven'tbeen okay for a long while and
then it comes out in likeunreversible or irreversible
violent ways and stuff.
And I'm not saying like being aupright bass player is going to
solve that, but like in generalin your life, like I just want
you to be good.
So if you can be uh, you know,like a neurologist, but like you

(52:17):
got you get you have fun onweekends playing like upright
bass for an orchestra, then likeI genuinely want that to be a
fulfilling life for you.

You know, like yeah, oh for sure.
We're all just different people, you know, and it's like we all
have different ways of workingwith our creativity, you know,
and there's no right or wrongway.
Um, but what is your creativeprocess like as a songwriter?

Rod Kim (52:41):
oh, okay, I wanted to ask you that this goes back to
those two buckets I talked about, with the one about the writing
for artists and then thewriting for corporate so the
short answer is the second onewriting for corporate and ads,
literally just the assignment.
So I get a spreadsheet and it'slike we have this ad it's going
to be, it's going to feature abedroom in the 2002 you know
early 2000s and the maincharacter is into boy bands.

(53:03):
So I just do the assignment.
You know like, yeah, um, sothat's pretty straightforward,
and then you just have thatskill set or you learn it.
You know, um, for the creativepart that I really like, that,
the what I imagine dianewarren's process, like that I'm
pretty sure it's not.
Now you know that I'm gettingmore reality to it is when I sit
down with an artist to write apop song or a pop rock song.

(53:28):
I'm one of those like kind ofreally woo-woo kind of guys
where I know my one thing I'mafraid of moving to Nashville,
for, besides the weather notbeing as nice as LA is, these
Nashville writers can just makesongs and I'm not even sure if
every single one is likeinvested in.
You know, um, there's like Iwrote 14 songs today.
You know like okay, um, buthere, like uh, I like to sit

(53:53):
down with a young, a lot oftimes the younger artists but
like what, what is going on withyou?
And because it's been a longtime since I was a teenager or
20 something, and then we'lljust kind of maybe the first
session won't write anything,and it's just kind of like a
first date almost.
You know, professionally whereit's like okay.

(54:13):
So uh, today you had to dealwith this and this and this, and
then something usuallyhopefully like resonates and
then we kind of like go fromthere.
Um, I'm trying to think of anexample that won't like break a
contract, like um, like I don'tknow.
Uh, well, let's use an exampleoutside of myself.

(54:36):
So like uh, a guy, uh, dannigro, who also used to tour a
lot on the east coast with hisum band, as tall as uh, as tall
as lions.
He went on to produce andco-write with olivia rodrigo,
right oh wow I don't know whattheir process is, but her song
driver's license, you know herbig, explosive debut.
Whatever, yeah that really feltlike something that I would

(54:59):
have loved to been a part of.
Something like that, because itfeels like she came in, she was
like I just broke up with hisboy and like we were so excited
about me getting my driver'slicense, you know, and I was
like let's write about that,yeah I think that would have
been my response too.
You know it's like becausethat's a very specific to you
age appropriate.
Oh, like, we're not talkingabout, like you know, celine
dion's, all by myself comingfrom a 14 year old, you know um,

(55:23):
or I'm trying to think, um, I,you know something more
lighthearted.
Like I was writing with thisrapper who's a lot of had a lot
to do on social media and he wasjust really feeling himself and
uh, it was a fun song.
He just wanted to write a songabout like how he really loved
weed and women, you know, andabout like how he really loved

(55:44):
weed and women, you know, and sowe just vibed off of that, you
know.
We were just like at his uh,condo and um, it was talking
about like all the girls youcould get and stuff, and uh,
like him like just being highall the time.
So I was like it's, I know,it's like kind of unserious, but
like this is right.
That vibe, you know, like whatdoes it feel like?
To just have a good time?
People need to have a good timetoo, you know.
Um, and then I'm more seriousand like I love when I connect
with uh, I was.

(56:05):
I won't totally talk about thisidea because it's not fully
formed yet and I don't want tolike leak it before it's out,
but I'm working with um, anotherasian american artist.
He's an asian american artistwho's fairly prominent in
certain circles and we've beenworking on this song that is a
very specific api topic, like,not even an asian topic or an

(56:27):
american like specific to, like,asian american kids who grew up
here, uh-huh, some veryspecific thing that we have to
deal with, and it seemed likesomething that wouldn't work in
a song because it's like, um, Idon't know, I think it's talking
about like, I don't know whatthe equivalent would be, but it
didn't sound very poetic rightthen like, but just from us

(56:49):
talking about it, through ourvarious sessions of trying to
figure out what we were going todo together, I was at home and
I remember like texting him.
I was like, hey, you know thisthing that we all go through.
And he's like, yeah, I was likeI just I just had the spark and
I texted him the phrase thatwas going to be.
It contextualized the issuethat we always deal with in like

(57:09):
a really catchy phrase.
He's like that's the thing.
It's still on my dry eraseboard here, that oh I love it
we're going through the rest ofthe song.
So my process in that part isjust like let's like.
I said this is really woo, butlike let's vibe yeah, I said
this is really woo, but likelet's vibe, yeah, until the
right song presents itself.
And then let's like kind ofchisel that song out of the
marble.
You know.

Yes, that's what sculptors do.

Rod Kim (57:32):
Yeah.

You know that's cool and I like how you have
conversations with the peopleyou're working with to let that
to foster that environment.
The idea is to kind of justpercolate.
So you're working with to letthat to foster that environment,
the ideas to kind of justpercolate so you're not like
rushing into writing somethingright away I.

Rod Kim (57:49):
I think part of what did that for me was um coming
out to la.
Something that has helped isbeing a lot more mindful of
other people's experiences, andpeople who knew me in other
chapters of life will would notbe incorrect of them to say that
I was like pretty fairlyjudgmental and like set in my
ways and you know a lot.
A good portion of that's on me,but I think a lot of another

(58:10):
good portion of that is on, likethe settings I was in in the
time I was, you know, like inthe 90s and the midwest and
stuff.
So like I don't want to, Idon't want to, I can't come into
a situation assuming I knowwhat it's like for, like a young
woman, to walk down hollywoodboulevard alone is a very
different experience than medoing the same thing, um, or you

(58:31):
know, and so it became reallyimportant for me to like ask
what, what is your experience?
because otherwise it's justsomething in the 90s that a lot
of people don't talk aboutnowadays is like a lot of the
pop songs that you're you knowpop girlies sing were written by
middle-aged white men yep, yep,yep they were.

If you listen to a song lyric from back then as
great as songs as they are, thatwas a thing to say I was
actually just thinking aboutthis the other night and I'm not
going to name names, I'm notgoing to name the song, I'll
tell you about it when we stoprecording.

Rod Kim (59:02):
Yeah, but I was like man, I was like, hey, it made
the record, it made the record,but yeah wow um, you know like
I'll go ahead and drop this namehere because I did love her
work before, but, like katieperry has recently attempted a
comeback and there's no argumentthat in like the early 2010s,

(59:25):
like she wasn't just a pop, shewas the pop star yeah yeah, um
teenage dream.
I think it rivaled thrillerright for like most singles or
number ones off a single albumand stuff like the archetype for
like a pop artist at the time.
And she's come back in a timeafter being away from putting
out regular records for a while,and I hope the best for her
because there in a time, afterbeing away from putting out
regular records for a while andI hope the best for her because

(59:46):
there was a time that she wasreally hitting it um, she's
worked.
She's working again with a verycontroversial producer.

Uh, oh, you can do the homework on that.

Rod Kim (59:55):
Oh yeah and I think that's part of why the music
comes across as kind ofdisingenuous, because it's
supposed to be like a women'srights manifesto, you know, or
like a feminist power anthem andstuff.
But, the person I will talkabout is someone she used to
have on her team was a gal namedBonnie McKee.
Yeah, songwriter, she's notpart of this new record and I

(01:00:17):
feel like that's very apparent.
Oh, something about having awoman on a record about a
woman's experience?
Yeah, it was very valuable.

Jennifer Logue (01:00:30):
So, on the subject of Edwin McCain, it
brings us back to your podcast.
So I want to ask, with RodKim's Millennial Sleepover, what
motivated you to start apodcast in the first place?

Rod Kim (01:00:46):
sleepover.
What motivated you to start apodcast in the first place?
Oh, okay, so, uh, part of itwas something where it was an
extension of like it does this,doesn't feel wrong but also I
had no idea I was going to pullit off.
I still don't know how I'mpulling it off.
I'm like I'm not even in themiddle of it.
I'm like the the beginning,beginning, um, but I knew so one
of like the kind of sideeffects from being in the
proximity of social media for solong.

(01:01:06):
So when I moved to LA at theend of 2015, kind of fell into
the YouTube community.

And it's been wonderful.

Rod Kim (01:01:12):
YouTube, the company, the YouTube creator community,
is absolutely wonderful.
I mean, you can see like Ithink, yeah, youtube gave me
like lamps and stuff to hangaround oh cool.
And yeah, there's a pillow theygave me.

When you first got to LA.

Rod Kim (01:01:25):
I think I'd been here for like a month or two and went
to a party at the YouTubestudios on the West side and
immediately everyone from thecompany to the creators like
embraced you know me and theproject I was in at the time.
But being around so that kindof just threw me into social
media.
But being around so so thatkind of threw me into social
media.
I realize everything With theexception of maybe YouTube has

(01:01:47):
like an expiration date.
I I'd seen vine come and go.
Now I've seen Twitter come andgo.
I mean, I guess Twitter is likea zombie right now.
Right, it's like it's not deadbut it's not alive.

Yeah.

Rod Kim (01:02:01):
And there's some other social media platforms that like
don't exist anymore, that noone would remember that I was
part of and um, so I knew withtiktok whether or not the
platform itself goes away,because I know that's a whole
legal thing here in the states.
I just know like it's notalways gonna be around, for for
me at least, um, things notnecessarily fall off, but you

(01:02:25):
know, think about your favoritetv show or whatever.
There's probably a point intime.
If it didn't get canceled, youjust stopped watching it yeah or
most people stopped watching it.
Just stuff passes, and I thinkthat's both.
I think something in my late 30s, early 40s I really embraced
was like that's as much of ablessing as is it as a curse,
because, like, whatever hardshipcomes with that I know will

(01:02:46):
also pass so I can enjoy thegood stuff that's happening
right now with it.
So when the tick-tock stuffstart popping off I think about
a little less than a year in itbecame apparent that this was
going to be pretty serious.
Uh, because both financiallythe people who reached, the
artists that were reaching outto me and the opportunities it

(01:03:06):
was affording me um, I was like,okay, this is pretty serious,
this is not gonna last forever,so I need to hustle at this.
So I just I pumped out and Ipumped out, I got more regular
about posting on tick tock.
But then I also knew like so Ihave, I have to have a plan for,
like when this isn't a thingfor me anymore, like when the
viewership stops or when theplatform gets taken, something,

(01:03:28):
something's gonna happen.
Something always happens withentertainment, um, and so the
natural extension of that was,like, well, talking about songs
for two minutes.
So the extension of that wouldbe talking about songs for like
an hour.

There you go.

Rod Kim (01:03:43):
Then I came to this realization of, like, I don't
want to talk, I don't want tospeculate more about the songs
or songwriting without the inputor perspective of the artists
and or the writers, because I'mjust going to be wrong at some
point.
Right, I can only likespeculate so much before.
I'm just mostly wrong, and also, obviously, it's an incredible

(01:04:05):
opportunity for me to gush infront of my, you know, heroes.
Oh my gosh, yeah edwin mccainmade me cry.
My own podcast oh my gosh, it'samazing yeah um, and you know,
all american rejects guys arejust incredibly cool guys.
We've been dming ever since uh,but then at the same time it's
like since my weakness is kindof like the quirk about like
what I think people might likeabout it, because, because I'm

(01:04:25):
not like a professionalinterviewer, I'm just kind of
talking shop with othermusicians, yeah, and um, like on
all american rejects uhinterview, I was like so who are
the backup singers and what aretheir backgrounds?
And I don't know if they'vebeen asked that before.
He's like oh, so that's mystudio manager, danielle.
She's a musician herself inNashville and she has these
friends and so those there'sthree of them.

(01:04:48):
They got to like kind of have alittle moment in social media
and stuff and hopefully a lotmore.
They were incredibly talented.
I don't know if you know, likeOprah would necessarily ask that
.

No, yeah, yeah, that's.
That's part of what inspiredthis podcast too, because I so
not to talk about me again but I, we met through Rock on Philly
and that was a publication.
I started not as a journalist,I mean, I started as a musician
and I, when I was a journalistin New York, I, I came into it
as a musician, like I didn'thave any experience experience,

(01:05:21):
I was just good at improvisingfrom performing, like I would
just make up questions on thespot and luckily I knew about
music, it was my passion, so, um, but in my interviews that's
always been I, I would get thata lot.
I've never been asked thatquestion before.
Oh my gosh.
And it's because I'm I'm notprimarily a journalist and I

(01:05:43):
think you have an interestingperspective and that's the
beauty of social media now, likewe can all.
I think niche podcasts are somuch more interesting because
you're getting to talk shop andyou're not getting those general
questions.
Yeah, I mean, I've heard somuch.

(01:06:04):
I'd be on the red carpet andthere would be these journalists
asking, like Billy Joel, sowhat's your favorite vacation
destination?
Like trying to get their soundbites for, like, and I'm just
like, why would you ask him that?
Like he's being on like.
Anyway, I can't rememberspecifically who she asked that
of, but, um, it can be tough inthe traditional media as a

(01:06:29):
musician or as an artist of anykind, it's funny.

Rod Kim (01:06:31):
You mentioned that because I think I need to get
better at getting at least acouple sound bites, because, as
I'm like going through thesepodcasts to try to find sound
bites for social media, I'm likewow, like that was a great
answer that took 10 minutes toanswer.
But like when did I have thatmoment where I asked something
that you know was like a great30 second zinger, you know?

Well, something that I'm well, I'm probably not
gonna incorporate into thisseason, but rapid fire questions
.
Maybe you end the podcast withsome rapid fire, so it was like
a sentence response.

Rod Kim (01:07:04):
That could be a cool way to do it but I I just think,
like for me it's like what toask to begin with, but also,
like I, you know it'll come withthe territory if this keeps
going.
We'll see like, uh, but yeah,it was an extension of the tick
tock show and or the series.
And then, uh, I just more of anextension of me not knowing
what I'm doing because, like,even by the time I did the first

(01:07:25):
interview with all americanrejects, I had realized I had
not finalized the podcast name.
I had been calling itmillennial sleepover because, as
a joke, because, uh, that'swhat it looks like in my videos
is like, oh, it's a millennialas a sleepover it's a great name
.
It's a great name, thank youbecause a lot of people in the
comments would be like, oh, Ifeel like we're at a sleepover,
it's a great name.
It's a great name, thank you.
Because a lot of people in thecomments would be like, oh, I
feel like we're at a sleepoverand you're just talking about my

(01:07:45):
favorite songs.
I was like let's go with thatright now.
So you'll see me in the allamerican rejects podcast.
I'm like welcome to themillennial sleepover guys.
Uh, I don't know if that's agood name oh I, it's great.
It's great captures the vibebut yeah, so so far the artists
have come on and were like, yeah, yeah, there's a thing there.
So everything is just me likedoing things until they don't

(01:08:08):
work.
I guess I don't know if that'sthe best strategy, but it's mine
.

I don't think anyone knows what they're doing.
I think that's the secret too.

Rod Kim (01:08:16):
Yeah, no one knows what they're doing like the I just
I'm not good enough atarticulate or at um contriving
away where it looks like I am,you know, knowing what I'm doing
.

Like I think you know what you're doing.

Rod Kim (01:08:33):
I mean, well, there are things there are parts of it,
definitely, but overall, like,like I put in my little um, I
have no idea what I'm doingposts like whenever someone's
like how did you get to likethis premiere or something I was
like I literally don't know.
I mean, I know I can tell youwhat the moment happened, like
someone called me and I went,but I could, I couldn't tell you
how you can navigate that pathto get there, you know well, rod

(01:08:55):
.

Thank you so much for appearing on creative
space thank you for having meyeah, this is awesome.

Rod Kim (01:09:00):
I feel like we've been catching up in front of
everybody, do you?

want to tell everyone where they can find you
online yeah, so the easy cheatcode is just rodkimcom.

Rod Kim (01:09:09):
You'll see a website there that has a little 90s
easter egg page on it, but alsolike links to my music and
tiktok and the podcast now um.
And then social media wise, um.
On youtube I'm just at rod kimum, and on uh instagram and uh
tiktok, it's rod kim rocks, um,the, the.

(01:09:32):
The whole videos that I've beentalking about, where I talk
about 90s music, are on tiktok,because the other platforms
restrict how long things can beum and stuff.
But other than that, uh, youhave probably already or will
eventually hear something I'vedone out in the wild, whether
it's credited or not.
Um, because, like I said, thevolume of work I've done the

(01:09:53):
last like couple years I've justbeen out there, oh, like I
think if anybody saw an x-men 97spot last year, I didn't know
until months later that that wassomething I wrote a couple
years ago, oh, wow.

That's cool.
So, Rod's all over the internet, all over the YouTubes.

Rod Kim (01:10:08):
You may have already heard something I've done, but
if not yet, those are my socialsas well.
And Millennial Sleepover, rodKim's Millennial Sleepover yes,
all the platforms.
You can watch it on Spotify andYouTube and then listen to it
everywhere else.

And thank you so much for joining us on Creative
Space.
My name is Jennifer Logue.
Until next time, thank you.

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