November 17, 2025 • 31 mins
Mime, movement and the Relax Kids revolution.
Marneta Viegas, founder of Relax Kids, was the "fame school" student haunted by self-doubt who went on to become a pioneer of accessible children's relaxation. In this episode she details the emotional toll business growth had on her, and how she now fiercely guards her creativity.
- From Self-Doubt to Mime: Marneta shares her supportive, yet complex, childhood, including attending ballet and tap classes where she struggled with self-esteem. Despite graduating with a degree in performing arts (and crying daily over the music requirements), constant rejection from the children’s TV industry led her to pivot to the "silent way," studying mime. She funded this non-verbal training by entertaining children as a clown.
- The Accidental Birth of Relax Kids: While working as a clown Marneta noticed a critical drop in children’s concentration, and using accumulated skills (breathing, drama, mime, silence), she created her unique seven-step system and made relaxation for children "acceptable" by turning fairy stories into meditations, drafting her first book in just three days.
- The Struggle: Losing the Creative Spark: As Relax Kids grew, the administrative burden took over, and Marneta experienced a loss of creativity, as well as feeling physically sick and struggling with "dark days".
- Creativity Found and Fiercely Guarded: There is, of course, a happy ending, and Marneta explains how she was able to find her path back to creativity, and how she now prioritizes new creative channels, including performing unique standup comedy, mindful movement, and forest bathing.
Marneta's story is about the power of silence, stillness, and childlikeness to feed the soul and fuel creative liberation.
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Podcast recorded with Riverside and hosted by Buzzsprout
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Marneta Viegas (00:33):
I did constantly wonder why I am doing this.
I shouldn't really be here.
So there was that thing of theself-esteem eating at me,
watching Dragon's Den thinking,oh, I would never go on that.
What a horrible programme.
And then ended up getting anapplication.
I remember the moment.
I thought, well, maybe I couldgo on Dragon's Den.
(00:54):
And I went on, they laughed meout of the den because it was
too new, they didn't have anyconcept of social
entrepreneurship then.
Boris Johnson gave me the prizeand the keys to this office for
a year.
That's when it was like, oh.
Going into an office every day.
Hated it.
(01:16):
This is a really good point foranyone who wants to go, okay,
what shall I do with my life?
Go and look at your bookshelf,because I remember late 90s
looking at my bookshelf, and itwas all books on children,
psychology type thing,meditation, and fairy stories.
Claire Waite Brown (01:37):
Hi, I'm Claire.
For this podcast, I chat withpeople who have found or refound
their creativity as adults.
We'll explore their childhoodexperiences of the arts, discuss
how they came to the artisticpractices they now love, and
consider the barriers they mayhave experienced between the
two.
We'll also explore what it isthat people value and gain from
(02:00):
their newfound artisticpursuits.
And how their creative livesenrich their practical,
necessary, everyday lives.
This time I'm chatting withMarneta Viegas.
Hi Marneta, how are you?
Hello, Claire, I'm really well.
Brilliant.
Let's start then by please youtelling me what your current
(02:23):
creative channels are.
Marneta Viegas (02:26):
Fantastic, yes.
So I've got lots of creativechannels.
I've started doing stand-up,inspired by my cousin Lucy
Pearman, who is an incredibleclown stand-up.
And what I've started doing isdressing up as mad things.
Last week I was a virus, theweek before I was a tree, and I
(02:47):
just do this stand-up.
It's just for the retreat, soit's not like in the big bad
world.
Um, but it's really great formy creativity.
And I also do movement, mindfulmovement, and forest bathing in
Oxford.
Must come.
I should, I should.
Claire Waite Brown (03:05):
Tell me about when you were younger at
home and at school.
Did you have positive creativeinfluences?
Marneta Viegas (03:13):
Absolutely.
Although my father did want meto be a doctor, he was tearing
his hair out at the fact that Ijust could not apply myself to
maths.
But they were so supportive.
I was so fortunate.
They scraped their moneytogether to put me in private
school because that's what Ineeded.
So there was a lot ofopportunities for performing.
(03:36):
So every classroom would createsomething.
So we had talent competitions.
So I was really, reallyencouraged.
Tap school, ballet school, eventhough I was the fattest child
there, it was awful, but I waslearning these skills, yeah.
And so I did constantly wonderwhy I am doing this.
(03:58):
I shouldn't really be here.
So there was that thing of theself-esteem eating at me.
But I pushed on.
13, I got in the children'sopera company.
I ended up being the lead.
I was in the CBSO choir at 16.
I was the youngest one there.
So I had so many amazingopportunities.
(04:18):
And then in the 80s, there wasthis like a fame school.
It was a six-warm college, butthere was a whole fame
department, and it was the timeof fame.
You know, literally, we werejumping on tables.
So I did my A-level music,drama, and O-level dance.
Now I remember my teachers atthe private school going to my
(04:38):
parents, you can't send herthere.
It's such a bad area.
But they they let me choose.
So that was I'm really, reallygrateful for.
And that sort of led me on tomy own really weird creative
way.
Claire Waite Brown (04:53):
Yeah.
That is so encouraging, and notoften what I hear on this show,
I have to say.
So then, having done your Alevels at the Fame School, what
happened next?
Marneta Viegas (05:06):
I got into the Welsh College of Music and Drama
to study music for teaching,and I went for a year and I did
love it, but then I justthought, nah, this isn't right.
This isn't right.
And I literally, I cannotbelieve this.
But one month before, I calledup my fame school teacher and I
said, You have to get me insomewhere else.
(05:27):
I can't go back.
One month before.
And he goes, Manita, there is aperforming arts college in
Middlesex.
You can do a degree inperforming arts.
There were only two at thetime.
I said, You have to get me in,you have to get me in.
And they went one over on themusic to take me.
Like it was unbelievable.
I think he pulled in a favourwith his friend, and I had to do
(05:50):
music.
I think because the musicdepartment was prepared to go to
26.
They had 25 in each music,drama, dance.
But we studied them all andcostume and everything.
But yeah, it was amazing.
And I was horrific.
I was awful.
I couldn't sight sing, Icouldn't sight read piano.
I cried every day in the pianorooms.
(06:12):
I remember three years of hellin one respect.
But I got I got there.
I did it.
I got a two, I think I got atwo-one even.
I mean, I don't haven't evengot the degree to prove it.
And I even now I have dreamsthat I haven't got my degree.
You know, like an anxietydegree uh uh dream.
Claire Waite Brown (06:31):
I have anxiety dreams that I'm meant to
be taking my A levels and Ihaven't done any revision.
I even know in my dream thatit's a dream because I'm like
Claire, you're a grown-up,you're 53 years old, you did
your A levels a long time ago.
Crazy, yes.
Marneta Viegas (06:48):
You found the music difficult, but you in did
you enjoy the rest of it?
Yes, I loved costume, so Ireally got into the costume,
little bit of drama, and thenwhat happened?
I left there and I went tovarious talent, you know, to try
and get an agent in the early90s now.
(07:09):
You have to get an agent.
It was really hard to get anagent.
I really wanted to be achildren's TV presenter, you
know, Floella Benjamin.
I grew up with FloellaBenjamin, and I thought, you
know, she was such a good rolemodel.
But in the 90s, they were allthin, blonde, and beautiful.
And I was going against allthese thin, young, beautiful
(07:31):
girls.
So that just got into myself-esteem.
And I just thought, I can't dothis to myself anymore, this
constant rejection.
And so I thought, I'm gonnastudy mime.
I'm going to go the silent way.
And so I got a Michael Jacksonfund to do mime with Adam
(07:53):
Darius, then I went to theDesmond Jones School of Mime,
and then I went to anotherFrench school, which was
amazing.
And I think I even did anotherone.
So I did a good few years ofmime.
Alongside that, I started myfirst business entertaining
children as a clown at parties.
So that funded my miming.
(08:13):
So I was constantly performing,being in front of people,
learning those skills, quickthinking, and going into all
sorts of situations that, youknow, quite scary sometimes.
I could tell you a few stories.
Yeah.
Um, that's how I really sort ofbuilt my confidence.
Claire Waite Brown (08:31):
Yeah.
Marneta Viegas (08:33):
Why the mime?
And what what what was thatleading towards, if anything?
I love magic and I lovetheatre, and I love the magic of
theatre.
I get really bored with talkytype theatre.
I love panto because thechanges.
And so alongside the mime,alongside my um, I'm going to
(08:55):
answer the question, but I'mcoming in a roundabout way,
alongside my children'sentertaining, I also started
producing theatre for children.
And the way I did it, it wasalways my friends would laugh,
costume-led.
Every single scene had to be adifferent colour, had to
everybody had to have adifferent costume change.
So we'd all have about four orfive costume changes.
(09:17):
I always had the nicestcostumes, but I made them, so
that's allowed.
And so that is why I love mime,and I would go to, it was very
popular in the 90s, the LondonMime Festival in January, and
Slava, the Clown, and there wereall the famous mime artists
(09:38):
would descend on the UK, andthey'd do something just with
the hands, a whole hour of justwatching hand movements, and
that is magic to me, and I justlove that creativity and
watching that on stage.
So the reason why I went downthe mine was to learn those
skills to put them into mychildren's theatre shows.
(10:02):
Whether they were individual, Iwas very lucky.
I'm got to travel the world alittle bit, go to Italy, and I
did it all for charity, but itwas all learning.
Claire Waite Brown (10:12):
Yeah.
I'm interested in that you sayabout the wordy theatre, and
then you're talking about a veryfocused craft and a focused
(10:59):
form of entertaining, which isnow connecting with my next
question, which is leading on torelax kids.
So when you told me in the pastthat when you were entertaining
the children, you started tonotice something within your
audience that then led to a nextcreative idea.
So tell me about that.
Marneta Viegas (11:19):
Yes, so I have been a children's entertainer
for around eight, eight years.
I think it was 92.
I started once I left uni.
And it was around 99 to 2000that I noticed a change in their
behaviour.
Thought, why are they notsitting still and listening?
Their concentration is not asgood, and it can't be my show
(11:42):
because I'm getting better andbetter.
And I thought there's somethinghappening to their minds.
So in one of the particularlydifficult ones, um, I remember
there were a lot of I had a lotof boys and they were about sort
of eight-year-old boys, and thekey is they had come from
school, and they were the worstparties that you'd always dread
(12:02):
those after school partiesbecause they were hyped, they'd
been stressed all day, you know,tense all day, and then now
they can let rip and they'vebeen with each other, whereas
when they come to a party,they're usually shy, and so it
was so hard.
And halfway through the show, Ijust went, Okay, everyone, lie
down.
And I just did a visualization,and the parents were like, they
(12:24):
couldn't believe it, theycouldn't believe it.
And and so I just startedbringing this into my shows, and
parents loved it because theway that I had entertained
children, if I had left withthem quiet, eating out of my
hand, that to me was a goodshow.
Whereas other entertainers, andthat's why I got booked,
(12:44):
because other entertainers wouldwhip the children up and think
that the louder they are, themore fun they're having, and
that's not how I worked.
So I guess in a way, I'd alwaysbeen using these methods, and
so moving on from that, I justthought, oh, there must be
something in this.
And I thought I should dosomething meditation for
(13:04):
children.
I'd learnt meditation when Iwas 12, so I knew meditation was
a good thing.
I'd been laughed at throughoutmy childhood for meditating and
eating lentils because we werevegetarian as the hippie thing.
So meditation was a weird thingin the 90s, it wasn't
mainstream.
So I thought, how can I find away to bring meditation
(13:27):
mainstream?
I researched and there wasnothing in the UK, a little bit
of whale song type new ageything in America, but nothing
like that in the new UK.
So I thought, oh, I need tofind a way to make meditation
accessible to children andacceptable to the adults, to the
(13:47):
parents.
So I thought, I'll take thefairy stories.
So I took all the fairy storiesand I turned them into
meditations, and I wrote myfirst book, and that was done in
three days, in fact, on ameditation retreat in three
mornings after meditation atfive o'clock.
The first draft, let's say,yeah.
(14:09):
And then I I got a publishingdeal to do two books and it went
on from there.
But alongside with that, Istarted getting some friends'
children come to the house andand relaxing them, using all the
things that I pulled, breathingfrom the singing that I um the
drama games, the mime, thesilence, the meditation.
(14:31):
I put it all together andcreated a seven-step system to
teaching children to relax.
And this is what makes relaxkids unique.
I got a millennium fundinggrant to do my first classes in
an area of deprivation.
We had to do something formental health.
(14:51):
So they were starting to think,and I thought, oh, this is
perfect for me.
And so I got my money to startmy business, and it went so
well.
And then as a result, fiveyears later, so many people
wanted the classes.
I thought, I can't go down toCornwall, can't go up to
Edinburgh, I have to starttraining.
So I started training, and todate, I've trained 6,000 coaches
(15:14):
to do relaxed kids and another4,000 teachers, so it's in
schools as well.
I'm gonna c I could come tovision boards in a second, but I
didn't do projections, I didn'tdo anything like that.
It was all accidental.
I remember in 2004 watchingDragon's Den thinking, oh, I
would never go on that.
What a horrible program.
(15:36):
How could they be so cruel topeople?
And then ended up getting anapplication.
I remember the moment seeing anapplication.
I thought, oh maybe I could goon Dragon's Den.
And I filled it inhalf-heartedly, went to the next
level.
Half-heartedly went to the nextlevel, went for a screenshot,
and they said, well, you know,don't worry, if you get other
(15:57):
funding, you know, take it,because we'll let you know in a
couple of months.
Next Monday they called me, canyou come in next week?
I thought, oh my god, I want tolose two stone before I go on
the TV.
And I went on, they laughed meout of the den because it was
too new, they didn't have anyconcept of social
(16:17):
entrepreneurship then that wecould do business and be helping
the world.
But the key thing is PeterJones did say to me, you know,
you're obviously an actress,what's your dream?
And I said, My dream is to puton shows for children in the
West End for free.
And he went, Well, would youlike to do this for free?
And I said, Well, interestingpoint, because I didn't set
(16:38):
relaxed kids up to make lots ofmoney.
And they just went, Did youjust say you don't want to make
money?
And that was the end of theinvestment possibility.
Our values didn't align anyway,so it was fine.
So that is how relaxed kidsjust accidentally developed.
(16:59):
But just going back, if youdon't mind, I'd like to go back
to the vision board because nowvision boards are a big thing,
and yes, I do do them now, butin 1991, I remember drawing out
my first vision board before Iknew that vision boards were a
thing.
I had a white piece of paperand I was just scribbling
(17:21):
pictures of clowning, greatpeople, celebrities, and then I
lost that piece of paper and Imoved.
Three years later, I found thatpiece of paper and it would all
come true.
All come true.
And that was the first visionboard.
Yeah.
Claire Waite Brown (17:38):
Oh, it's so exciting.
Um now it all sounds, it allfits with what you're talking
about and the content that youwere creating.
At any point, it seems like youtook the Dragon's Den thing
quite lightheartedly.
At any point, did it become notso enjoyable or or more work?
(17:59):
It's like it's getting biggerand bigger and bigger.
Did that actually ever dampenyour enthusiasm, do you think?
Marneta Viegas (18:06):
Yes, Claire, great question.
The reason why I set up RelaxKids was my mum gave me £45,000.
I have an English mum, and myfather, my Indian father passed
away, but my English mum wasgoing to go to India to live.
So she sold her house and shesaid, This is your early
inheritance.
Go and put a deposit down for aflat.
(18:27):
And I went, I'm not going to dothat.
I'm going to make CDs forchildren.
She went, What?
But that £45,000 has kept me inwork for 25 years.
So I don't have a house, butyou know, when I first started,
I had a ha a room full of CDsand I would send them out with a
(18:48):
little bit of glitter, youknow, each one.
And then at the point that itstarted to be a big business,
not a big business, but theheadache of accounts and
marketing, and oh, I've got toactually start promoting.
Well, that's when it was awful.
I had many, many dark days,many, many times I wanted to
(19:10):
give it up.
And then, especially when youknow the idea of staff having to
deal with the whole businessyside.
I won an office a few yearslater, and Boris Johnson gave me
the prize and the keys to thisoffice for a year.
And that at that point, that'swhen it was like, oh, going into
(19:32):
an office every day, hated itso much.
I can't do accounts.
I literally would start to feelsick in accountant meetings,
literally, because I'd just comeover all hot.
So then I did start gettingstaffed, but then of course, if
you're not looking after themand you don't know how to manage
(19:54):
them, then they do their ownthing.
So I'd had all sorts of allsorts of stories um round that.
Claire Waite Brown (20:01):
So did you feel you were losing control
then?
Of the business, I mean, notyourself.
Marneta Viegas (20:07):
Well, possibly both, but it was more about the
business and less creativity.
The creativity was lost.
And I'm only happy when I'mwriting the books, creating the
programmes, meeting the people,helping the children, anything
else, I just struggle with.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(20:27):
But there was a little lightthat came 2007 when it was all
getting all too much.
This is on a personal note now.
I put an advert, you know, Ihad my vision board.
I wanted to find a lovelypartner, and I even put it on my
vision board that he would helpme with the business, he'd be
(20:48):
good at computers, he'd be goodat music, he would do the
recordings, all that I really,really struggled with.
And I put up an advert onGumtree saying, going with the
fairy tale theme, Cinderella'slooking for a prince between
this age and this age, kind,relate, da da da da.
Listed all what I wanted, had20 replies, and I had one that
(21:08):
wrote in old-fashioned English.
And for a week we created thisfairy story.
It was amazing.
And he was, I remember he waslike night ninety-seven working
his way up to the top, somethinglike that.
And then after a week heemailed me and he said he didn't
know who I was.
These emails have changed mylife.
Can we meet?
And I said, Oh, okay.
(21:30):
We arranged to meet at BlenheimPalace, you know that well.
How lovely! Of course, wherecould a where could a prince and
princess meet?
There has to be BlenheimPalace.
And um but the day before, youwill not believe this.
It was unbelievable.
I didn't know where he worked.
I went to the Science Park cafenear me, and I went was meeting
a friend, and I I remembergetting ten pence change back
(21:53):
for my coffee.
That was when times of change.
And I smiled at the woman, andI just thought, somebody saw
that smile.
It was just this weird, weird,weird moment.
I got a text from him fiveminutes later.
He said, I think I just saw youat the cash point at the
Science Park Cafe.
We'd not met, he justrecognised me, and I I'm getting
(22:15):
tingles now just thinking aboutit, and we almost freaked each
other out, thinking I thought,oh, is he stalking me?
And we met, and you know, fourdays later he asked me to marry
him, and we got married inBlenheim Palace a year later.
Wow.
This is all I mean, for me,there is like the fairy tale
element, and even my wedding,talk about creativity.
(22:38):
I the only way I could doBlenheim Palace was if I did
everything on my own.
So I did everything, evenmaking my friends all wear the
Blenheim Palace colours, soeveryone was in sort of like
caramels and browns and duskypinks.
It looked amazing.
So it's like theatre, isn't it?
Life for me is like beauty andtheatre.
(23:00):
And he did the website, he didall my record.
He was a computer programmer,so he left his work and came to
work for Relax Kids a monthlater.
Wow.
And he was brilliant, he wasbrilliant, and he really was
good at helping build thebusiness, and then I was able to
take a little bit of a uh aback foot, yes, but then I did
(23:24):
lose my creativity.
I I I lost myself a little bit.
Something did happen where Iwent into a bit of a down and
yeah, and I lost that creativespark.
Claire Waite Brown (23:37):
So presumably, well, actually not
presumably, did you notice that?
I mean, did you equate withgoing down, with losing
creativity?
Did you see that?
Marneta Viegas (23:49):
Not at time.
I probably looking back, themistake was that I wasn't
continuing my creative threadand also giving the
responsibility away, my mistake,and just sort of like, I don't
know what I was doing, but Ijust went into it like a quiet,
yeah, just more inward.
And I wasn't happy.
(24:10):
Yeah.
Claire Waite Brown (24:12):
But that's not your situation now.
No.
And you know, this iscreativity found, it's always a
happy ending, and we come backto the findings.
So, what did change yourrealization and how did it come
back to where you are now?
Marneta Viegas (24:26):
Well, sadly, a few l years later, the the
marriage did come to an end,although we did carry on working
in the business together.
And the year after the marriageended, obviously broken heart
and all that, but then here wego.
Let's be creative.
I wrote five books in a year,and so and and then I I carried
on creating more programmes, andthen I started in 2021 created
(24:51):
an Ignite Your Spark CreativityClub where we meet and we do art
every week, and it's just goneon from there.
And then I started doing nowgoing back to the beginning, the
comedy, which I absolutelylove, and the forest bathing.
If I could do nothing else butforest bathing, movement in
(25:12):
nature, and comedy, I would beso happy.
Those are my three laughs now.
Claire Waite Brown (25:19):
And did that then um you live on a retreat,
don't you?
I do, yes.
Marneta Viegas (25:25):
When did that come in in the timeline?
It was I think 2004.
I woke up and I thought I'vegot to move out of London.
And I thought the only place Iwant to live is near this
retreat in this area.
It's felt this this is myplace, and I've been here for 20
years.
I guess the entertaining, it'sall been very much linked with
(25:47):
my meditation journey.
And I think this is a reallygood point for anyone who wants
to go, okay, what shall I dowith my life?
Go and look at your bookshelf.
Because I remember late 90slooking at my bookshelf, and it
was all books on children,psychology type thing,
meditation, and fairy stories.
Claire Waite Brown (26:09):
Brilliant.
Marneta Viegas (26:10):
And that's what I did.
Yeah.
I think the true creativity islike never.
I mean, I've had so many peoplecopy me now, but the true
creativity is when you find yourown thing, you know.
Don't copy anybody else, takelittle bits, but create your own
thing.
And you know, just like youhave done, all your guests, you
(26:32):
just find your your creativespark using your whole life,
really.
And you can see for me,meditation and the mime, which
comes, I guess, even into theforest bathing because the no
words.
I love this thing.
We're now in a in a world ofwords and information.
How much more can our mind, ourminds, our brains take?
(26:57):
We want to go back to the mind,we want to go back to the
silence, the stillness, theclowning, the childlikeness.
This is what feeds our soul.
Claire Waite Brown (27:09):
And is that how you can guard against being
taken over again?
So you can guard against goingback to a position you were in
before that was uncomfortable.
Marneta Viegas (27:22):
Yes, that will would never happen again.
And I'm I'm very protectivenow.
And Sarah, who works in in theoffice, she's brilliant at all,
the admin and all that stuff.
So I know that I don't have toget involved, and I know if I
did, I would lose myself again,yeah.
But definitely keeping thatspark, that creative spark alive
(27:45):
in whatever way is so soimportant.
But also the silence, findingthe spark in the silence.
Claire Waite Brown (27:54):
Yeah.
You see, for me, I can equatethat in an opposite way, in that
I love the audio, but not thevideo.
Everything is pushing for videothese days, and I'm like, I
just need the audio.
I don't need all of my sensesto be working at the same time.
Marneta Viegas (28:12):
Yes, that's very, very interesting.
I think in terms ofinformation, I prefer the audio.
Although, interestingly enough,if there's a video, I would
actually rather read aboutsomething.
Claire Waite Brown (28:26):
Yeah.
Marneta Viegas (28:26):
Then I can I can skim and I can get the points
that I need.
Claire Waite Brown (28:30):
Yes.
That is exactly how I do it.
And I get so well, I don't getcrossed, but I search something
up that I need to do on internetand it gives me YouTube things.
And I'm like, no, I don't wantthat.
I just want the words, and thenI'll pick out the words I need,
and then yeah, I'm exactly thesame.
How interesting.
You must be old school, Claire.
Definitely, definitely.
I still read books that are umactual paper books, not on a
(28:54):
Kindle or anything.
So before we go, explain alittle bit more about how Relax
Kids works now, how anythingelse you're doing uh works now.
Marneta Viegas (29:05):
Yeah, so with Relax Kids, obviously I have got
my 20 books now that I'vewritten.
So for parents to work withchildren or teachers to work
with children to help themmanage their anxiety and
emotional.
So the way I've done it is I'vefound lots of different
creative ways, not just themeditation, but interesting
creative ways to get children torelax.
(29:28):
And then I've got the trainingwhere people can come or go
online and learn to be a relaxedkids coach or use it in school.
I've also got a toolkit forschool teachers, karma class to
use in schools.
There's a charge-up programmefor teenagers, which is
basically a handbook that everyteen needs to have: art of
(29:50):
consent, how to haverelationships, mind, body,
understanding that youunderstand your phone, but you
don't understand your brain, youknow.
So switching off, downloadingpositive software, etc., all
that.
And then we have a baby mindfulprogram, which is for naught to
24 months, teaching the mothersand babies from zero how to
(30:16):
relax and eco-regulate.
So lots of things happeningwith relaxed kids.
And then the Spark program,that's once a a week we meet
online and create and chat.
Claire Waite Brown (30:30):
And yeah, that's lovely.
Oh brilliant.
Thank you so much, Marneta.
It's been such an upliftingchat today.
Tell me how people can connectwith you, where people can find
you.
Marneta Viegas (30:44):
Relaxkids.com is the website.
Find me on LinkedIn if you wantto connect with me personally
or Facebook.
Yeah, I'm love to chat to youand help anyone who wants to be
creative or help children becreative and relax.
Perfect.
Thank you so much.
My pleasure, Claire.
Claire Waite Brown (31:05):
Thank you so much.
You're welcome.
I hope you enjoyed thisepisode.
If you did, perhaps you'd liketo financially contribute to
future episodes atbuymeacoffee.com slash
creativityfound.
There's a link in the shownotes.
If you are listening on a valuefor value enabled app, such as
(31:26):
Fountain, TrueFans, or PodcastGuru, feel free to send a few
sats my way.
And if you have no idea of whatI'm talking about, you can find
out more by listening to mysister podcast called Podcasting
2 in Practice.
I did constantly wonder why I am doing this.
I shouldn't really be here.
So there was that thing of theself-esteem eating at me,
watching Dragon's Den thinking,oh, I would never go on that.
What a horrible programme.
And then ended up getting anapplication.
I remember the moment.
I thought, well, maybe I couldgo on Dragon's Den.
(00:54):
And I went on, they laughed meout of the den because it was
too new, they didn't have anyconcept of social
entrepreneurship then.
Boris Johnson gave me the prizeand the keys to this office for
a year.
That's when it was like, oh.
Going into an office every day.
Hated it.
(01:16):
This is a really good point foranyone who wants to go, okay,
what shall I do with my life?
Go and look at your bookshelf,because I remember late 90s
looking at my bookshelf, and itwas all books on children,
psychology type thing,meditation, and fairy stories.
Claire Waite Brown (01:37):
Hi, I'm Claire.
For this podcast, I chat withpeople who have found or refound
their creativity as adults.
We'll explore their childhoodexperiences of the arts, discuss
how they came to the artisticpractices they now love, and
consider the barriers they mayhave experienced between the
two.
We'll also explore what it isthat people value and gain from
(02:00):
their newfound artisticpursuits.
And how their creative livesenrich their practical,
necessary, everyday lives.
This time I'm chatting withMarneta Viegas.
Hi Marneta, how are you?
Hello, Claire, I'm really well.
Brilliant.
Let's start then by please youtelling me what your current
(02:23):
creative channels are.
Marneta Viegas (02:26):
Fantastic, yes.
So I've got lots of creativechannels.
I've started doing stand-up,inspired by my cousin Lucy
Pearman, who is an incredibleclown stand-up.
And what I've started doing isdressing up as mad things.
Last week I was a virus, theweek before I was a tree, and I
(02:47):
just do this stand-up.
It's just for the retreat, soit's not like in the big bad
world.
Um, but it's really great formy creativity.
And I also do movement, mindfulmovement, and forest bathing in
Oxford.
Must come.
I should, I should.
Claire Waite Brown (03:05):
Tell me about when you were younger at
home and at school.
Did you have positive creativeinfluences?
Marneta Viegas (03:13):
Absolutely.
Although my father did want meto be a doctor, he was tearing
his hair out at the fact that Ijust could not apply myself to
maths.
But they were so supportive.
I was so fortunate.
They scraped their moneytogether to put me in private
school because that's what Ineeded.
So there was a lot ofopportunities for performing.
(03:36):
So every classroom would createsomething.
So we had talent competitions.
So I was really, reallyencouraged.
Tap school, ballet school, eventhough I was the fattest child
there, it was awful, but I waslearning these skills, yeah.
And so I did constantly wonderwhy I am doing this.
(03:58):
I shouldn't really be here.
So there was that thing of theself-esteem eating at me.
But I pushed on.
13, I got in the children'sopera company.
I ended up being the lead.
I was in the CBSO choir at 16.
I was the youngest one there.
So I had so many amazingopportunities.
(04:18):
And then in the 80s, there wasthis like a fame school.
It was a six-warm college, butthere was a whole fame
department, and it was the timeof fame.
You know, literally, we werejumping on tables.
So I did my A-level music,drama, and O-level dance.
Now I remember my teachers atthe private school going to my
(04:38):
parents, you can't send herthere.
It's such a bad area.
But they they let me choose.
So that was I'm really, reallygrateful for.
And that sort of led me on tomy own really weird creative
way.
Claire Waite Brown (04:53):
Yeah.
That is so encouraging, and notoften what I hear on this show,
I have to say.
So then, having done your Alevels at the Fame School, what
happened next?
Marneta Viegas (05:06):
I got into the Welsh College of Music and Drama
to study music for teaching,and I went for a year and I did
love it, but then I justthought, nah, this isn't right.
This isn't right.
And I literally, I cannotbelieve this.
But one month before, I calledup my fame school teacher and I
said, You have to get me insomewhere else.
(05:27):
I can't go back.
One month before.
And he goes, Manita, there is aperforming arts college in
Middlesex.
You can do a degree inperforming arts.
There were only two at thetime.
I said, You have to get me in,you have to get me in.
And they went one over on themusic to take me.
Like it was unbelievable.
I think he pulled in a favourwith his friend, and I had to do
(05:50):
music.
I think because the musicdepartment was prepared to go to
26.
They had 25 in each music,drama, dance.
But we studied them all andcostume and everything.
But yeah, it was amazing.
And I was horrific.
I was awful.
I couldn't sight sing, Icouldn't sight read piano.
I cried every day in the pianorooms.
(06:12):
I remember three years of hellin one respect.
But I got I got there.
I did it.
I got a two, I think I got atwo-one even.
I mean, I don't haven't evengot the degree to prove it.
And I even now I have dreamsthat I haven't got my degree.
You know, like an anxietydegree uh uh dream.
Claire Waite Brown (06:31):
I have anxiety dreams that I'm meant to
be taking my A levels and Ihaven't done any revision.
I even know in my dream thatit's a dream because I'm like
Claire, you're a grown-up,you're 53 years old, you did
your A levels a long time ago.
Crazy, yes.
Marneta Viegas (06:48):
You found the music difficult, but you in did
you enjoy the rest of it?
Yes, I loved costume, so Ireally got into the costume,
little bit of drama, and thenwhat happened?
I left there and I went tovarious talent, you know, to try
and get an agent in the early90s now.
(07:09):
You have to get an agent.
It was really hard to get anagent.
I really wanted to be achildren's TV presenter, you
know, Floella Benjamin.
I grew up with FloellaBenjamin, and I thought, you
know, she was such a good rolemodel.
But in the 90s, they were allthin, blonde, and beautiful.
And I was going against allthese thin, young, beautiful
(07:31):
girls.
So that just got into myself-esteem.
And I just thought, I can't dothis to myself anymore, this
constant rejection.
And so I thought, I'm gonnastudy mime.
I'm going to go the silent way.
And so I got a Michael Jacksonfund to do mime with Adam
(07:53):
Darius, then I went to theDesmond Jones School of Mime,
and then I went to anotherFrench school, which was
amazing.
And I think I even did anotherone.
So I did a good few years ofmime.
Alongside that, I started myfirst business entertaining
children as a clown at parties.
So that funded my miming.
(08:13):
So I was constantly performing,being in front of people,
learning those skills, quickthinking, and going into all
sorts of situations that, youknow, quite scary sometimes.
I could tell you a few stories.
Yeah.
Um, that's how I really sort ofbuilt my confidence.
Claire Waite Brown (08:31):
Yeah.
Marneta Viegas (08:33):
Why the mime?
And what what what was thatleading towards, if anything?
I love magic and I lovetheatre, and I love the magic of
theatre.
I get really bored with talkytype theatre.
I love panto because thechanges.
And so alongside the mime,alongside my um, I'm going to
(08:55):
answer the question, but I'mcoming in a roundabout way,
alongside my children'sentertaining, I also started
producing theatre for children.
And the way I did it, it wasalways my friends would laugh,
costume-led.
Every single scene had to be adifferent colour, had to
everybody had to have adifferent costume change.
So we'd all have about four orfive costume changes.
(09:17):
I always had the nicestcostumes, but I made them, so
that's allowed.
And so that is why I love mime,and I would go to, it was very
popular in the 90s, the LondonMime Festival in January, and
Slava, the Clown, and there wereall the famous mime artists
(09:38):
would descend on the UK, andthey'd do something just with
the hands, a whole hour of justwatching hand movements, and
that is magic to me, and I justlove that creativity and
watching that on stage.
So the reason why I went downthe mine was to learn those
skills to put them into mychildren's theatre shows.
(10:02):
Whether they were individual, Iwas very lucky.
I'm got to travel the world alittle bit, go to Italy, and I
did it all for charity, but itwas all learning.
Claire Waite Brown (10:12):
Yeah.
I'm interested in that you sayabout the wordy theatre, and
then you're talking about a veryfocused craft and a focused
(10:59):
form of entertaining, which isnow connecting with my next
question, which is leading on torelax kids.
So when you told me in the pastthat when you were entertaining
the children, you started tonotice something within your
audience that then led to a nextcreative idea.
So tell me about that.
Marneta Viegas (11:19):
Yes, so I have been a children's entertainer
for around eight, eight years.
I think it was 92.
I started once I left uni.
And it was around 99 to 2000that I noticed a change in their
behaviour.
Thought, why are they notsitting still and listening?
Their concentration is not asgood, and it can't be my show
(11:42):
because I'm getting better andbetter.
And I thought there's somethinghappening to their minds.
So in one of the particularlydifficult ones, um, I remember
there were a lot of I had a lotof boys and they were about sort
of eight-year-old boys, and thekey is they had come from
school, and they were the worstparties that you'd always dread
(12:02):
those after school partiesbecause they were hyped, they'd
been stressed all day, you know,tense all day, and then now
they can let rip and they'vebeen with each other, whereas
when they come to a party,they're usually shy, and so it
was so hard.
And halfway through the show, Ijust went, Okay, everyone, lie
down.
And I just did a visualization,and the parents were like, they
(12:24):
couldn't believe it, theycouldn't believe it.
And and so I just startedbringing this into my shows, and
parents loved it because theway that I had entertained
children, if I had left withthem quiet, eating out of my
hand, that to me was a goodshow.
Whereas other entertainers, andthat's why I got booked,
(12:44):
because other entertainers wouldwhip the children up and think
that the louder they are, themore fun they're having, and
that's not how I worked.
So I guess in a way, I'd alwaysbeen using these methods, and
so moving on from that, I justthought, oh, there must be
something in this.
And I thought I should dosomething meditation for
(13:04):
children.
I'd learnt meditation when Iwas 12, so I knew meditation was
a good thing.
I'd been laughed at throughoutmy childhood for meditating and
eating lentils because we werevegetarian as the hippie thing.
So meditation was a weird thingin the 90s, it wasn't
mainstream.
So I thought, how can I find away to bring meditation
(13:27):
mainstream?
I researched and there wasnothing in the UK, a little bit
of whale song type new ageything in America, but nothing
like that in the new UK.
So I thought, oh, I need tofind a way to make meditation
accessible to children andacceptable to the adults, to the
(13:47):
parents.
So I thought, I'll take thefairy stories.
So I took all the fairy storiesand I turned them into
meditations, and I wrote myfirst book, and that was done in
three days, in fact, on ameditation retreat in three
mornings after meditation atfive o'clock.
The first draft, let's say,yeah.
(14:09):
And then I I got a publishingdeal to do two books and it went
on from there.
But alongside with that, Istarted getting some friends'
children come to the house andand relaxing them, using all the
things that I pulled, breathingfrom the singing that I um the
drama games, the mime, thesilence, the meditation.
(14:31):
I put it all together andcreated a seven-step system to
teaching children to relax.
And this is what makes relaxkids unique.
I got a millennium fundinggrant to do my first classes in
an area of deprivation.
We had to do something formental health.
(14:51):
So they were starting to think,and I thought, oh, this is
perfect for me.
And so I got my money to startmy business, and it went so
well.
And then as a result, fiveyears later, so many people
wanted the classes.
I thought, I can't go down toCornwall, can't go up to
Edinburgh, I have to starttraining.
So I started training, and todate, I've trained 6,000 coaches
(15:14):
to do relaxed kids and another4,000 teachers, so it's in
schools as well.
I'm gonna c I could come tovision boards in a second, but I
didn't do projections, I didn'tdo anything like that.
It was all accidental.
I remember in 2004 watchingDragon's Den thinking, oh, I
would never go on that.
What a horrible program.
(15:36):
How could they be so cruel topeople?
And then ended up getting anapplication.
I remember the moment seeing anapplication.
I thought, oh maybe I could goon Dragon's Den.
And I filled it inhalf-heartedly, went to the next
level.
Half-heartedly went to the nextlevel, went for a screenshot,
and they said, well, you know,don't worry, if you get other
(15:57):
funding, you know, take it,because we'll let you know in a
couple of months.
Next Monday they called me, canyou come in next week?
I thought, oh my god, I want tolose two stone before I go on
the TV.
And I went on, they laughed meout of the den because it was
too new, they didn't have anyconcept of social
(16:17):
entrepreneurship then that wecould do business and be helping
the world.
But the key thing is PeterJones did say to me, you know,
you're obviously an actress,what's your dream?
And I said, My dream is to puton shows for children in the
West End for free.
And he went, Well, would youlike to do this for free?
And I said, Well, interestingpoint, because I didn't set
(16:38):
relaxed kids up to make lots ofmoney.
And they just went, Did youjust say you don't want to make
money?
And that was the end of theinvestment possibility.
Our values didn't align anyway,so it was fine.
So that is how relaxed kidsjust accidentally developed.
(16:59):
But just going back, if youdon't mind, I'd like to go back
to the vision board because nowvision boards are a big thing,
and yes, I do do them now, butin 1991, I remember drawing out
my first vision board before Iknew that vision boards were a
thing.
I had a white piece of paperand I was just scribbling
(17:21):
pictures of clowning, greatpeople, celebrities, and then I
lost that piece of paper and Imoved.
Three years later, I found thatpiece of paper and it would all
come true.
All come true.
And that was the first visionboard.
Yeah.
Claire Waite Brown (17:38):
Oh, it's so exciting.
Um now it all sounds, it allfits with what you're talking
about and the content that youwere creating.
At any point, it seems like youtook the Dragon's Den thing
quite lightheartedly.
At any point, did it become notso enjoyable or or more work?
(17:59):
It's like it's getting biggerand bigger and bigger.
Did that actually ever dampenyour enthusiasm, do you think?
Marneta Viegas (18:06):
Yes, Claire, great question.
The reason why I set up RelaxKids was my mum gave me £45,000.
I have an English mum, and myfather, my Indian father passed
away, but my English mum wasgoing to go to India to live.
So she sold her house and shesaid, This is your early
inheritance.
Go and put a deposit down for aflat.
(18:27):
And I went, I'm not going to dothat.
I'm going to make CDs forchildren.
She went, What?
But that £45,000 has kept me inwork for 25 years.
So I don't have a house, butyou know, when I first started,
I had a ha a room full of CDsand I would send them out with a
(18:48):
little bit of glitter, youknow, each one.
And then at the point that itstarted to be a big business,
not a big business, but theheadache of accounts and
marketing, and oh, I've got toactually start promoting.
Well, that's when it was awful.
I had many, many dark days,many, many times I wanted to
(19:10):
give it up.
And then, especially when youknow the idea of staff having to
deal with the whole businessyside.
I won an office a few yearslater, and Boris Johnson gave me
the prize and the keys to thisoffice for a year.
And that at that point, that'swhen it was like, oh, going into
(19:32):
an office every day, hated itso much.
I can't do accounts.
I literally would start to feelsick in accountant meetings,
literally, because I'd just comeover all hot.
So then I did start gettingstaffed, but then of course, if
you're not looking after themand you don't know how to manage
(19:54):
them, then they do their ownthing.
So I'd had all sorts of allsorts of stories um round that.
Claire Waite Brown (20:01):
So did you feel you were losing control
then?
Of the business, I mean, notyourself.
Marneta Viegas (20:07):
Well, possibly both, but it was more about the
business and less creativity.
The creativity was lost.
And I'm only happy when I'mwriting the books, creating the
programmes, meeting the people,helping the children, anything
else, I just struggle with.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(20:27):
But there was a little lightthat came 2007 when it was all
getting all too much.
This is on a personal note now.
I put an advert, you know, Ihad my vision board.
I wanted to find a lovelypartner, and I even put it on my
vision board that he would helpme with the business, he'd be
(20:48):
good at computers, he'd be goodat music, he would do the
recordings, all that I really,really struggled with.
And I put up an advert onGumtree saying, going with the
fairy tale theme, Cinderella'slooking for a prince between
this age and this age, kind,relate, da da da da.
Listed all what I wanted, had20 replies, and I had one that
(21:08):
wrote in old-fashioned English.
And for a week we created thisfairy story.
It was amazing.
And he was, I remember he waslike night ninety-seven working
his way up to the top, somethinglike that.
And then after a week heemailed me and he said he didn't
know who I was.
These emails have changed mylife.
Can we meet?
And I said, Oh, okay.
(21:30):
We arranged to meet at BlenheimPalace, you know that well.
How lovely! Of course, wherecould a where could a prince and
princess meet?
There has to be BlenheimPalace.
And um but the day before, youwill not believe this.
It was unbelievable.
I didn't know where he worked.
I went to the Science Park cafenear me, and I went was meeting
a friend, and I I remembergetting ten pence change back
(21:53):
for my coffee.
That was when times of change.
And I smiled at the woman, andI just thought, somebody saw
that smile.
It was just this weird, weird,weird moment.
I got a text from him fiveminutes later.
He said, I think I just saw youat the cash point at the
Science Park Cafe.
We'd not met, he justrecognised me, and I I'm getting
(22:15):
tingles now just thinking aboutit, and we almost freaked each
other out, thinking I thought,oh, is he stalking me?
And we met, and you know, fourdays later he asked me to marry
him, and we got married inBlenheim Palace a year later.
Wow.
This is all I mean, for me,there is like the fairy tale
element, and even my wedding,talk about creativity.
(22:38):
I the only way I could doBlenheim Palace was if I did
everything on my own.
So I did everything, evenmaking my friends all wear the
Blenheim Palace colours, soeveryone was in sort of like
caramels and browns and duskypinks.
It looked amazing.
So it's like theatre, isn't it?
Life for me is like beauty andtheatre.
(23:00):
And he did the website, he didall my record.
He was a computer programmer,so he left his work and came to
work for Relax Kids a monthlater.
Wow.
And he was brilliant, he wasbrilliant, and he really was
good at helping build thebusiness, and then I was able to
take a little bit of a uh aback foot, yes, but then I did
(23:24):
lose my creativity.
I I I lost myself a little bit.
Something did happen where Iwent into a bit of a down and
yeah, and I lost that creativespark.
Claire Waite Brown (23:37):
So presumably, well, actually not
presumably, did you notice that?
I mean, did you equate withgoing down, with losing
creativity?
Did you see that?
Marneta Viegas (23:49):
Not at time.
I probably looking back, themistake was that I wasn't
continuing my creative threadand also giving the
responsibility away, my mistake,and just sort of like, I don't
know what I was doing, but Ijust went into it like a quiet,
yeah, just more inward.
And I wasn't happy.
(24:10):
Yeah.
Claire Waite Brown (24:12):
But that's not your situation now.
No.
And you know, this iscreativity found, it's always a
happy ending, and we come backto the findings.
So, what did change yourrealization and how did it come
back to where you are now?
Marneta Viegas (24:26):
Well, sadly, a few l years later, the the
marriage did come to an end,although we did carry on working
in the business together.
And the year after the marriageended, obviously broken heart
and all that, but then here wego.
Let's be creative.
I wrote five books in a year,and so and and then I I carried
on creating more programmes, andthen I started in 2021 created
(24:51):
an Ignite Your Spark CreativityClub where we meet and we do art
every week, and it's just goneon from there.
And then I started doing nowgoing back to the beginning, the
comedy, which I absolutelylove, and the forest bathing.
If I could do nothing else butforest bathing, movement in
(25:12):
nature, and comedy, I would beso happy.
Those are my three laughs now.
Claire Waite Brown (25:19):
And did that then um you live on a retreat,
don't you?
I do, yes.
Marneta Viegas (25:25):
When did that come in in the timeline?
It was I think 2004.
I woke up and I thought I'vegot to move out of London.
And I thought the only place Iwant to live is near this
retreat in this area.
It's felt this this is myplace, and I've been here for 20
years.
I guess the entertaining, it'sall been very much linked with
(25:47):
my meditation journey.
And I think this is a reallygood point for anyone who wants
to go, okay, what shall I dowith my life?
Go and look at your bookshelf.
Because I remember late 90slooking at my bookshelf, and it
was all books on children,psychology type thing,
meditation, and fairy stories.
Claire Waite Brown (26:09):
Brilliant.
Marneta Viegas (26:10):
And that's what I did.
Yeah.
I think the true creativity islike never.
I mean, I've had so many peoplecopy me now, but the true
creativity is when you find yourown thing, you know.
Don't copy anybody else, takelittle bits, but create your own
thing.
And you know, just like youhave done, all your guests, you
(26:32):
just find your your creativespark using your whole life,
really.
And you can see for me,meditation and the mime, which
comes, I guess, even into theforest bathing because the no
words.
I love this thing.
We're now in a in a world ofwords and information.
How much more can our mind, ourminds, our brains take?
(26:57):
We want to go back to the mind,we want to go back to the
silence, the stillness, theclowning, the childlikeness.
This is what feeds our soul.
Claire Waite Brown (27:09):
And is that how you can guard against being
taken over again?
So you can guard against goingback to a position you were in
before that was uncomfortable.
Marneta Viegas (27:22):
Yes, that will would never happen again.
And I'm I'm very protectivenow.
And Sarah, who works in in theoffice, she's brilliant at all,
the admin and all that stuff.
So I know that I don't have toget involved, and I know if I
did, I would lose myself again,yeah.
But definitely keeping thatspark, that creative spark alive
(27:45):
in whatever way is so soimportant.
But also the silence, findingthe spark in the silence.
Claire Waite Brown (27:54):
Yeah.
You see, for me, I can equatethat in an opposite way, in that
I love the audio, but not thevideo.
Everything is pushing for videothese days, and I'm like, I
just need the audio.
I don't need all of my sensesto be working at the same time.
Marneta Viegas (28:12):
Yes, that's very, very interesting.
I think in terms ofinformation, I prefer the audio.
Although, interestingly enough,if there's a video, I would
actually rather read aboutsomething.
Claire Waite Brown (28:26):
Yeah.
Marneta Viegas (28:26):
Then I can I can skim and I can get the points
that I need.
Claire Waite Brown (28:30):
Yes.
That is exactly how I do it.
And I get so well, I don't getcrossed, but I search something
up that I need to do on internetand it gives me YouTube things.
And I'm like, no, I don't wantthat.
I just want the words, and thenI'll pick out the words I need,
and then yeah, I'm exactly thesame.
How interesting.
You must be old school, Claire.
Definitely, definitely.
I still read books that are umactual paper books, not on a
(28:54):
Kindle or anything.
So before we go, explain alittle bit more about how Relax
Kids works now, how anythingelse you're doing uh works now.
Marneta Viegas (29:05):
Yeah, so with Relax Kids, obviously I have got
my 20 books now that I'vewritten.
So for parents to work withchildren or teachers to work
with children to help themmanage their anxiety and
emotional.
So the way I've done it is I'vefound lots of different
creative ways, not just themeditation, but interesting
creative ways to get children torelax.
(29:28):
And then I've got the trainingwhere people can come or go
online and learn to be a relaxedkids coach or use it in school.
I've also got a toolkit forschool teachers, karma class to
use in schools.
There's a charge-up programmefor teenagers, which is
basically a handbook that everyteen needs to have: art of
(29:50):
consent, how to haverelationships, mind, body,
understanding that youunderstand your phone, but you
don't understand your brain, youknow.
So switching off, downloadingpositive software, etc., all
that.
And then we have a baby mindfulprogram, which is for naught to
24 months, teaching the mothersand babies from zero how to
(30:16):
relax and eco-regulate.
So lots of things happeningwith relaxed kids.
And then the Spark program,that's once a a week we meet
online and create and chat.
Claire Waite Brown (30:30):
And yeah, that's lovely.
Oh brilliant.
Thank you so much, Marneta.
It's been such an upliftingchat today.
Tell me how people can connectwith you, where people can find
you.
Marneta Viegas (30:44):
Relaxkids.com is the website.
Find me on LinkedIn if you wantto connect with me personally
or Facebook.
Yeah, I'm love to chat to youand help anyone who wants to be
creative or help children becreative and relax.
Perfect.
Thank you so much.
My pleasure, Claire.
Claire Waite Brown (31:05):
Thank you so much.
You're welcome.
I hope you enjoyed thisepisode.
If you did, perhaps you'd liketo financially contribute to
future episodes atbuymeacoffee.com slash
creativityfound.
There's a link in the shownotes.
If you are listening on a valuefor value enabled app, such as
(31:26):
Fountain, TrueFans, or PodcastGuru, feel free to send a few
sats my way.
And if you have no idea of whatI'm talking about, you can find
out more by listening to mysister podcast called Podcasting
2 in Practice.
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