August 4, 2025 • 36 mins
Cruise ships, corporate climbing and a creative philosophy
From a young age, Tricia Duffy was immersed in the arts, singing and writing poetry. Leaving school at 16 with no qualifications, Tricia found a way to fulfill her dream of going to America by working on cruise ships, where her passion for entertainment blossomed.
On returning to the UK Tricia transitioned into the television industry, where she faced the challenge of working in a male-dominated environment that often sidelined women's creative contributions. She recounts how her successful career in television left her feeling unfulfilled and disconnected from her creative self.
After experiencing burnout and personal loss, Tricia started her own consulting business, which provided her the flexibility to reconnect with her love for music, as she joined a choir, a covers band, and began writing her own songs.
Tricia applied the philosophy of the 10-year plan, something she had used in corporate environments, to plan for her own creativity, and turned her love for research, and helping others make time for creativity into a podcast called In 10 Years Time: How To Live a Creative Life.
Tricia’s story encourages listeners to challenge their own self-doubt and pursue their passions. As she prepares to embark on a PhD journey, she emphasizes the significance of continuous learning and the joy of living a life dedicated to creativity.
This episode is not just a personal narrative; it’s an inspiring call to action for anyone feeling stuck in their creative pursuits, reminding us that it’s never too late to reclaim our artistic identities and live a fulfilling life.
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Podcast recorded with Riverside and hosted by Buzzsprout
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:08):
TV was, and still is, has a lot of kind of gender
bias in it, in that creativepeople are men, editorial jobs,
producers, directors tended tobe male, and women were very
much pointed towardsadministrative, business,
commercial roles.
(00:29):
My whole narrative about myself,having been an entertainer, you
know, considered myself a fullycreative person.
I started to tell myself astory.
This is in my mid-20s that Iwasn't a creative person.
Also wasn't an academic personbecause I somehow like an
interloper managed to get myselfin there without a degree.
I wanted to live with more artand aesthetics and music and I
(00:51):
wanted to know music better andI wanted to write songs and I
wanted to see whether I couldmake a go of it as a songwriter.
But I wouldn't eat it.
I absolutely love it.
I don't mind the fact that I'malways on seven days a week.
That doesn't bother me.
Some people ask me, you know,how do you manage you don't have
a weekend and I wouldn't tradeit.
And yeah, it's been the bestthing that I've ever done.
(01:12):
It's been brilliant.
And I just want to encourageeverybody else to do it as well.
SPEAKER_01 (01:18):
Hi, I'm Claire.
For this podcast, I chat withpeople who have found or
re-found their creativity asadults.
We'll explore their childhoodexperiences of the arts, discuss
how they came to the artisticpractices they now love, and
consider the barriers they mayhave experienced between the
two.
We'll also explore what it isthat people value and gain from
(01:42):
their newfound artisticpursuits, and how their creative
lives enrich their practical,necessary, everyday lives.
This time I'm chatting withTrisha Duffy.
Hi Trisha, how are you?
Hello, thank you so much forhaving me.
I'm a big fan of your show soit's really lovely to be on it.
(02:02):
Oh, thank you.
You're very welcome.
Start by telling me what yourcurrent creative outlet is or
maybe outlets
SPEAKER_00 (02:11):
are.
I guess I have two.
I'm a songwriter and I'm also apodcaster like you and my
podcast is about creativity.
So yeah, I'm very passionateabout living with creative
balance, however that looks.
My primary kind of creativeoutlet is as a songwriter, but I
also try and invest time in moreaesthetic pastimes so that I can
(02:36):
kind of keep that brainplasticity happening to help me
with my kind of well-being andcognitive function as I get
older.
But songwriting and podcasting,I guess, are the primary
outlets.
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
but
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
being open to it generally everywhere else as
well.
Exactly.
And then when you were younger,did creative activities play an
important part in your life,whether at home or in education?
I
SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
was a creative child because I loved singing and I
loved writing poetry.
Those were kind of my twooutlets.
It doesn't take a psych major tosee how I've become a songwriter
later on in life.
But I think we're of a similargeneration and it was a risk
averse kind of environment Igrew up in for good reason,
because my parents were bothwartime and post-war babies and
(03:27):
obviously had lived through kindof some significant lack and
scarcity and hardship.
And so for them, they were verykeen for me to explore career
ideas that allowed me to keeplights on, roof overhead and
food on the table.
So they were very kind of like,you can do your drama and you
(03:48):
can do your music, but you haveto do it as a hobby.
You need to think aboutsomething that's going to be
safer and more secure for a job.
And I completely understand thatand can't blame them for it at
all because we are all productsof our upbringing.
But it did mean that I had quitea lot of narratives and sort of
social expectations around kindof what being a good kind of
(04:10):
human, socially acceptablefeminist, etc.
And that was very much outsideof creativity, I guess.
Well, I really shocked my fatherwhen I said, OK, if I can't be
an actor, which is what I reallywanted to be, then I'm going to
be a social worker.
And he just put his head in hishands.
Oh, my God.
(04:30):
He was like, now I don't evenknow what to wish for.
Social worker, are you crazy?
SPEAKER_01 (04:37):
You didn't become a social worker, but when you then
finished school...
Did you have thoughts andactions on what you were going
to do to become this sensibleperson in society that keeps the
lights on?
SPEAKER_00 (04:50):
Oh, I guess I was quite rebellious.
I mean, I left school at 16 withno qualifications and my only
ambition at that time was to goto America.
I mean, I literally wascompletely single-minded because
I was so influenced bytelevision.
Those days we had, what, four ordid we have five channels?
We might have only had fourchannels.
We had four.
Four channels.
(05:10):
And...
The four channels had somefantastic television coming over
from the US.
Dynasty, Dallas and Moonlightingwere my three favorites, as well
as some comedies knocking aroundthere as well.
And I just, I mean, I just tookit completely off face value as
naive as I was.
When I was in my teens, I justlooked at the TV and I thought,
(05:32):
In America, you can do anything.
There's space, opportunity,there's money.
And I was living in an area justoutside Portsmouth, which was
not that salubrious.
And yeah, I just becamecompletely...
sure that if I could just get toAmerica my life would be
completely fine.
So as soon as I was 18 Iinterviewed for a job on cruise
(05:54):
ships which was the kind ofviable way that I could get to
America without doing itillegally or having a fortune to
be able to try and get some sortof visa which I didn't have the
money for that and yeah I'd onlyjust turned 19 when I left to go
to New York to work on cruiseships for the first time.
I mean, nobody did this as well.
I mean, most of my friendshipgroups, nobody went to
university, nobody reallytraveled that far to have this
(06:17):
opportunity and to kind of stepout of what was the normal kind
of path for people and go toAmerica.
All of my friends came to theairport with me, like a massive
send off because it was such anunusual thing to do.
I still look back on that nowand I just think it's absolutely
amazing.
They all came in like convoy,three carloads.
I said goodbye to my mom and dadat home and my friends came with
(06:39):
me and they took me right to thegate and waved me off as I went
through security.
It was crazy.
So then what was your job on thecruise ship?
So I spent the first yearworking as a gift shop assistant
because that was the job I couldget.
And I just campaigned from themoment I arrived there to...
get the entertainment departmentto use me.
So I would run the spotlight.
I would sing whenever theyneeded somebody extra to sing.
(07:01):
I would participate in anythingthey needed as like this sort of
free unpaid worker for theentertainment team.
And I did 11 months in the giftshop and came home after that
11-month contract and then just,again, went back to every single
cruise line saying, I'm ahostess.
I want to be a hostess.
I've just been doing this.
I've been volunteering and doingall of these things.
And the same cruise ship thatI'd been on before actually
(07:23):
hired me back as a hostess inthe entertainment department.
And then I spent another likethree and a half years on cruise
ships in the entertainmentdepartment.
So you were singing,entertaining, calling bingo,
telling jokes, host quiz shows,teach line dancing.
It was just a full onentertainment all day, every
day, keeping everybody happy andamused with our personalities
(07:44):
and our skills.
It was amazing and traveling allover the world.
My first run was New York toMontreal down the St.
Lawrence River.
So that was Canada and Americaall stops along the way.
You know, Maine and New England,what they call the file foliage
cruise, where it's allabsolutely stunning and you're
going down little waterways and,you know, the trees are orange
(08:06):
and beautiful either side of youand then I did Caribbean stint
so yeah you're in otherterritories then and Mexico and
then I did the Panama Canal I'vebeen through the Panama Canal
seven times which is quiteextraordinary really because the
ships that I was placed on justhappened to re-transition and I
did a stint out of San Diegodown to Mexico I did an Alaska
(08:28):
run one year and then we stoppedin Barcelona in 1992 for the
Olympic Games and became a hotelfor the Games and then crossed
the Atlantic to New York wherethey started the same similar
runs, the four foliage.
You change route basically threeor four times a year to follow
the weather and the customerrequirements, I guess.
SPEAKER_01 (08:48):
Fabulous.
Why did you stop that?
What was your reasoning?
What was your plan for happeningnext?
So
SPEAKER_00 (08:57):
I wanted to travel...
differently I sort of got thetravel bug from being on cruise
ships but on cruise ships as youcan imagine you are you never
really get to understand aculture of a place in terms of
what happens in the eveningsprimarily because you're there
during the day most of the timeand we used to have the odd
overnight in Puerto Rico andplaces like that but generally
(09:18):
speaking we worked in theevenings and we saw places
during the day when at theirmost beautiful one could argue
so a new bug came which was youknow I'm a traveler now and I
understand different culturesand I I can get myself from A to
B.
I understand how things work.
And I'd like to travel somewherewhere I could stay in a place
and actually see it in a littlebit more detail.
(09:38):
And so I cooked up a plan.
I'd saved a lot of money.
So I was quite wealthy.
So for my first year, my first11 month contract, I broke even
and I had to get a job in akaraoke bar in Portsmouth to
manage over the time that I washome before I went back onto
cruise ships as a hostess.
When I went back though,hostess, I earned pretty good
money.
You have all your food paid for.
I mean, it wasn't like a bigsalary, but I didn't have really
(09:59):
anything to spend it on.
You know, no accommodation, nofood.
I didn't pay tax because I wasnot domiciled anywhere.
I was on what they call a C1D,which is a seaman's visa.
You don't live anywhere.
I had no dependents, noexpenses.
All I had to do was occasionallybuy myself a formal dress for
the formal leave.
That was pretty much it.
So I saved really well.
I used to get postal orders andput them in the post to my mum
(10:20):
and dad and they put them in thebank for me.
That was the system in thosedays.
And so I came home with quite afew savings and I decided that I
wanted to go traveling.
So I went off to Australia andSoutheast Asia by myself for
about another 11 months, justbasically saw the world by
myself.
I went completely on my own.
And this is before mobile phonesas well.
So I was quite sort of likeindependently minded going off.
(10:43):
I don't know if I'd have thebravery to do it now, but I did
then.
And then after that, I thought,well, it's time for me to kind
of come home and get a jobbecause obviously I depleted
quite a lot of my savings atthat stage and I thought well it
seems logical to me that I workin telly because on the cruise
ships I was entertaining and Iwas scheduling events and
understanding how audiencesworked and all the rest of it
(11:05):
and I think that seems like alogical thing for me to do not
Knowing, as I now know, that inthose days to get a job in
television without a degree froma red brick university, whatever
one of those was, was unheardof.
I mean, you just couldn't evenget an interview because they
would cap at graduate.
If you weren't a graduate, youcouldn't even get through the
door.
(11:26):
But luckily for me, I had afriend who was a graphic
designer.
He'd gone to art school from thesame school that I'd been at and
he was working on a sports TVshow.
And I was going for interviewsand just getting absolutely
nowhere.
And he said to me, why don't youjust come in and shadow me?
They won't mind.
No one will care.
At least then next time you gofor an interview, you have an
(11:47):
idea what an edit suite lookslike and you've been into a TV
company.
And I went in and shadowed.
And while I was there, the execproducer said, oh, we haven't
got work experience next week.
Do you want to just do workexperience?
And so I went in the Monday tostart doing work experience.
And on the Tuesday afternoon, hesays, if you shadow the next two
days, the PA, you can have ashift on Saturday because
(12:07):
someone had been off sick for along term.
So I was just so lucky, right?
I right time that I got my firstpaid work.
And that girl that was off sick,she had glandular fever.
She was off sick for another sixweeks and I took all her shifts.
And that's how I got in.
That's how I started.
At the end of the six weeks, shecame back and she happened to
get promoted and I took her job,basically.
It was just so lucky.
(12:28):
But TV was, and still is, has alot of kind of gender bias in
it, in that creative people aremen.
editorial jobs, producers,directors tended to be male and
women were very much kind ofpointed quite clearly towards
administrative, business,commercial roles.
(12:51):
And it was very unusual to seegirls kind of finding roles
within the creative side ofthings.
And so my whole narrative aboutmyself, having been an
entertainer, you know,considered myself a fully
creative person, I started totell myself a story.
This is in my mid-twenties thatI wasn't a creative person, also
wasn't an academic personbecause I somehow like an
(13:12):
interloper managed to get myselfin there without a degree.
And I told myself this wholestory that I was better at the
business than the admin anyway,and I'm organized.
And I became very good at itbecause we do things long
enough, you become good atanything, right?
And so that was really likequite a big turning point in my
life where I started to discountmy own creativity and that part
(13:32):
of my whole identity, really.
SPEAKER_01 (13:34):
Yeah, I can understand how you kind of get
led.
You don't mean to, and it kindof leads you that way.
So then tell me about that wholetime.
Your working role then, how didthat develop?
And also, what about the rest oflife around work?
How did that carry on?
So
SPEAKER_00 (13:53):
I worked up the ranks within television really
successfully.
I mean, I had an amazing career,which I still do have a sort of
sideline in television because Istill keep that going as a
consultant now.
I worked through the ranks as aproduction assistant to
production coordinator toproduction manager.
Then I became head ofproduction.
Then I became head of productionand a broadcaster.
I worked at Sky.
(14:14):
I was responsible fornegotiating all of the content
that was original content forSky 1, 2 and 3 as it was in
those days.
I mean, we were doing brand newthings that had never been done
before, sort of like thepreamble before streaming as
it's now experienced today.
So it was quite exciting and Iworked on some quite kind of new
innovative things.
But as I say, always from thekind of commercial business side
(14:35):
of things.
And I decided to launch my ownbusiness, which I guess now I
look back on it was a preamblefor this whole kind of creative
life that I now live.
I wanted control about how Ispent my time.
By the time I decided to set upmy own business, I was working
as the, this sounds like W1A forany of your listeners who are
familiar with that story, but Iwas working at the BBC and my
(14:56):
job title, honest to God, washead of transformation.
Yes, it was.
I was responsible for saving abillion pounds over five years
and it It was obviously, as youcan imagine, a really difficult
job and not a popularity contestwinning job either.
Very, very, very hard.
Took all of me to do it.
I did it for four years.
(15:16):
I just became completely burntout because I would be in my
first meeting at eight and mylast one at six.
And there was zero time to doanything other than just rush
late to the next meeting.
It was like a perpetual cycle.
And I really, really wanted moretime with my children.
I had two kids by then.
And more time to decide how Iwould spend it because what I
(15:38):
observed at the BBC was that Iwould spend a lot of my time
what I would call buffing themachine that was of no value to
anybody at all as far as I couldtell.
It was of no value to thelicense fee payer.
It was of no value to audiences.
It was of no value to the staff.
And it certainly wasn't of anyvalue to me.
The first couple of years at theBBC, I really enjoyed it because
(15:58):
I went in there from thecommercial sector and was seen
as a breath of fresh air whereI'd be like, well, that's just
stupid.
We're just going to do it andcut through a lot of the crap
that the system wore me down.
And I, you know, I can remembergoing one time to the executive
committee to ask,metaphorically, to ask
permission to spend five quid.
It cost me 10 quid to askpermission to spend five quid
and I'm the expert.
(16:18):
It's just stupid.
It's just stupid, stupidmachine.
So, yeah, it really wore medown.
And at one point We had somebereavements within the family.
We had a bit of a loss and thatwas a wake up call for me.
And I was just like, I just gotto get out of here.
So I decided to launch my ownbusiness so that I would get
more control back.
And that's been running now for13 years.
(16:38):
And it was really successful.
I mean, as soon as I wasavailable in the marketplace to
do consulting work, to helppeople understand complex
problem solving in the mediasector and using my strategy
skills, I was really soughtafter.
So it was really successful andit just gave me control over
which allowed me to just choosenot to work Friday afternoons
and pick up my own kids fromschool or, you know, do my work
(17:00):
on a Sunday morning when my kidwas playing rugby in the
clubhouse.
No one cares when I did my work.
I could displace things.
And so that was my first tasteof how life could be.
I didn't need to be presenteeismat a desk from Monday to Friday,
nine to five minimum, andprobably a bit more either side.
I could actually control how Ispent my time.
(17:20):
And then alongside thatcreativity-wise, I still sang so
that was really the one thingthat I held on to was that I was
a singer and I sang in choirsand I got a part in a musical at
one stage I had singing lessonsregularly and I did some sort of
weekend type things but alwaysin the outside so it was very
much confined to being a hobby
SPEAKER_01 (17:39):
Funnily enough, I've done a lot of editing of this
podcast in the rugby clubhousewhile my son is playing on a
Sunday morning.
As you know, the season is whenthe weather is rubbish.
You know, you can only be thatsupportive of your child.
If it's raining, then I'm sorry.
No.
Exactly.
Take up tennis, for goodnesssake.
SPEAKER_00 (18:00):
Why can't we have a summer sport where the weather's
fine and they have proper seats?
SPEAKER_01 (18:04):
For goodness sake.
Oh, dear.
So, While you're doing thatconsulting, then that's really
good.
And you're doing the singing.
So at what point or was there acatalyst or was there a point at
which you started to say, I wantto be more involved with these
creative activities, with thesinging that I'm enjoying?
(18:25):
I want to make that a biggerpart of my life.
So what it was, right?
I
SPEAKER_00 (18:30):
joined a band.
You joined a band?
I joined a band as the leadsinger of a covers band.
And then from the covers band, Iended up in a duo with the lead
guitarist from that covers band.
Because of happenstance,somebody asked us, was there any
chance you could do a smallerthing in the day?
We were playing, like headlininga village fate.
(18:50):
Headlining a village fate, I'dsay.
Still
SPEAKER_01 (18:53):
headlining.
SPEAKER_00 (18:55):
Indeed.
And they needed somebody to filla slot in the afternoon and so
they said to me and Al who wasthe guitarist you two could do
something for an hour to fillthis gap song was dropped out
blah blah blah and so we endedup rehearsing something up and
so then I was in a duo and aband and the duo was quite
creative in that Al who I waswith was a very good musician
(19:16):
and he would be like if we'regoing to do a cover we're not
going to do a cover like thecover we'll do a head turning
version of it and we did thatfor a couple of years and then
one day I said to him We shouldwrite our own.
And he said, all right, youstart.
Let me know where you gotsomething or something along
those lines.
And I said, OK, fine, I will.
So I went on Udemy, you know,the website that has all the
(19:38):
courses for like Udemy.
Yeah.
And looked up how to writesongs.
I mean, literally, although Ihad written songs as a teenager,
along with my poetry and stuff,I still have little piles of
lyrics that I wrote as ateenager.
So it wasn't exactly my firsttime, but I thought, well, I
should look into how thishappens.
And so I went on this Udemycourse, it was 1099 in the
(20:00):
January sale, and I just startedwriting.
And I wrote one, and I sent itto him as a voice note, and I
played guitar terribly at thispoint as well I mean I literally
picked up the guitar and learntlike five chords so that I could
write a song and he took aboutthree days to listen to it when
I was in there he hates it andwhen he did actually finally
listen to it he was likeunbelievably, this is quite good
(20:22):
and has great potential.
I really like it.
And so he started working on themusic.
And so that's how the duo kindof started writing original
music.
I mean, as soon as I started, Iwas prolific.
I must have written about 40songs in the first year.
Most of them were rubbish, butwe had enough.
We had 12 that made an album.
So we actually released an albumthe following year.
(20:43):
And so that was enough.
It was still a hobby, though.
Still, it's in the sidelines,but it did really nurture me and
it gave me some sort of suckerthat helped me feel like much
more balanced and well-roundedthat I was writing songs.
I would write them whenever theycame to me, you know, just from
my instincts, learning a bit ofguitar, getting a little bit
better on guitar, playing a fewgigs every now and then with Al
(21:07):
in the covers band still aswell, which was fun.
And yeah, and then working myown business, which gave me time
back so that if I did have anafternoon, I could write some
lyrics or whatever, you know, Ihad a balance that seemed to be
quite satisfactory.
And then the pandemic hits.
And this is when there wasanother big shift in I guess
it's worth saying that duringthat time where I'd sort of had
(21:29):
this, you know, I work as aconsultant and it's not just a
cottage industry, it's a properbusiness.
And I have this other thing thatI'm a songwriter and I do this
as a sideline.
It's my hobby.
That felt quite satisfactory tome, but I still told myself a
little bit of a story that Iwasn't a creative person.
I write songs, but I'm better atbusiness.
That's where my strength is.
(21:49):
And during the pandemic, As youmight imagine, the television
industry, which is my specialismin my consulting business, was
absolutely decimated.
So the work really, really driedup.
And the work that I did have,the remaining bits of work that
I had, all the joy went out ofthem because I was no longer
with flat edged pen andwhiteboard in a meeting, kind of
(22:09):
taking people through a journey,which when I look back on it
now, the performative aspects ofbeing a consultant were the
things that were also giving mea lot of nourishment in that,
you know, I was on stage almost,if you like, you know,
controlling a boardroom ofusually grumpy old men and
asking them really challengingquestions and putting them
through their paces and justtrying to help them to imagine a
(22:31):
future and all of these kind ofthings gave me a lot of kind of
joy.
And I was good at those things.
I'm a good communicator.
But I still didn't recognizethat as creativity.
I was still kind of tied up withthis whole social narrative of,
you know, I'm not a creativeperson.
But the pandemic gave me time tothink.
And I started to explore thisidea of using a 10-year plan,
(22:52):
which is a tool that I use withmy business clients on myself.
So this is how my podcast kindof arose as well.
But this is a couple of yearsbefore I decided to share it
with the world.
I was just doing it as apersonal little activity.
So 10-year planning, very, veryuseful tool for businesses
because it allows moreimagination.
It stops them from the wholekind of three years or we would
never be able to do that becausein three years we wouldn't have
(23:13):
the money.
In 10 years, you can reallyallow yourself to be
imaginative.
So I just started doing a little10-year planning process on my
own, very quietly.
I didn't tell anyone I was doingit.
I just started doing it formyself.
And I wrote an article onLinkedIn about why we needed
personal 10-year plans.
And so many people starteddirect messaging me on LinkedIn
going, I just saw your article.
How are you managing to balancebeing a songwriter and being a
(23:35):
consultant?
I'm a photographer.
I'm an artist.
I'm a this.
I'm a that.
And I want to do it.
And so I bravely changed myLinkedIn profile to say
consultant slash songwriter.
And then that got another flurryof people getting in touch with
me going, how have you donethat?
How have you changed?
And I was like, I literallytyped it into LinkedIn and you
could do that too.
It's all just characters in abox.
(23:57):
Go ahead.
I say you can.
Just do it.
What's the worst that canhappen?
And around that time, I turned50 as well.
And I think that's quite anotherimportant factor that it gave me
a bit of confidence.
And it made me ask questionsabout what I might want for the
remaining half century of mylife and whether or not I was
happy with the balance that Ihad.
And I decided I wasn't.
I really wasn't.
And in 10 years time, I wantedto live a more creative life.
(24:18):
I wanted to live with more artand aesthetics and music.
And I wanted to know musicbetter.
And I wanted to write songs.
I wanted to see whether I couldmake a go of it as a songwriter.
And I didn't mind about havingless money because I had less
money in the pandemic and itdidn't bother me.
I just stopped spending it.
I stopped going out and I didn'tmind it.
I mean, obviously, there werehorrors in the pandemic, but
(24:40):
there was some good for me thatcame out of having less, being
more frugal.
It really served me very, verywell.
So although it felt quite scaryin the experience of it, it
really served me well because itmade me reframe what enough was,
how much I really needed, how Iwanted to spend my time versus
earning money for commoditiesthat I didn't really need or
(25:02):
enjoy.
So all of that kind of framinghappened and that caused me one
Tuesday morning for reasons thatare quite inexplicable, although
I can see how some of the kindof breadcrumbs that led me to
that when I look back on it.
I searched on the internet oneTuesday morning, sitting right
here at this desk, Masters inSongwriting.
I should say that I did do adegree in the meantime when I
(25:24):
was working full-time.
I did a degree with OpenUniversity because I did have
that chip on my shoulder aboutnot being a graduate.
And so I did a degree inEconomics and Social Science.
while I was working full time.
It took me six years through OU.
So I had a degree and I thought,well, maybe I can do a master's
in songwriting.
What would be, what's the worstthat can happen?
Maybe I can't.
I don't have a music degree.
I have an OU economics degree,but maybe I can.
(25:45):
And I filled in the form for aninstitution that's very close to
where I live, the Institute ofContemporary Music Performance.
They did a master's insongwriting.
It was one of the only in-personones that I could find.
Obviously, it's just off theback of the pandemic.
and I hadn't said anything toanybody about it not a single
person not even my family Ifilled in the form and the
admissions must have been havinga slow day I hit send and within
(26:07):
about three and a half minutes Iget a call hi admissions team at
ICMP should we pick you in foran audition I was like hang on a
minute I was just failed in theform oh well they said just do
the audition if you get offereda place you can decide whether
you want to accept it and I saidokay then booked in the time and
I thought better tell my familythat I decided to do this and I
(26:31):
yeah and I did a master's insongwriting it took me two years
and that gave me a lot ofconfidence in different aspects
so first of all academicconfidence which I really lacked
because of the whole leavingschool at 16 with no
qualifications it also gave meconfidence as a songwriter I was
able to learn how to write inlots of different And as you
know, Claire, my podcast is aresearch podcast.
(26:57):
It's a research-based podcast.
And so that gave me reallyfantastic foundations and tools
of how to research topics andhow to cite other people's
sources and all the rest of itso that I could create this
research-based podcast thatreally does exactly what I've
done, which is say, you know,I'm a researcher.
Do you want to live a creativelife?
It's not too late.
Just like you and CreativityFound as well.
(27:18):
It's never too late.
You are a creative person.
You always have been.
And here are some resources tosupport you to make that
transition.
SPEAKER_01 (27:25):
Your podcast is called In 10 Years Time, and
it's born out of you doing yourown 10 years time for yourself
and helping others do it, or atleast they can use some of the
tools.
They might not do all of it.
So then I'm going to go like theproof is in the pudding here,
Tricia.
When your TV consulting workcomes back because we're not in
(27:46):
COVID anymore, are you beingtrue to your mantra and how is
your life balancing work,creativity and making you feel
happy for what you want to feelhappy about?
SPEAKER_00 (28:01):
Such a good
SPEAKER_01 (28:01):
question.
SPEAKER_00 (28:02):
So I've done it in phases.
It's not a kind of switch offkind of thing.
I mean, you know, there arepractical elements to obviously
consider and consulting workpays very well.
Creative work does not pay atall well, as you know.
So there is a tension, afinancial tension.
In fact, I've just recorded anepisode all about the money and
(28:22):
the economics of the arts So Ifirst of all changed my work
life.
So I used to do up to fiveclients at a time in my
consulting business.
And there's two of us that runmy business, two consultants.
And Catherine, my colleague, shealso decided when I said I
wanted to do a master's, she waslike, I've been thinking about
it as well.
So she did a master's as well.
(28:42):
So we both punted together.
We did them part time.
So we decided together to gofrom five clients at a time to
three.
We would only take three at atime.
So that was our first decision.
And we knew, obviously, thatthere would be an economic
impact to that, but we wereprepared for it.
So that was the first stage.
But during the sort of two yearsthat I was doing my master's,
the last six months of it, themedia industry had another big
(29:04):
blip economically, coincidingwith recession here in the UK.
TV industry just had no money atall.
And a lot of places were banningno consultants, no consultants
for a few months.
which meant that the work prettymuch dried up.
Not entirely, but I was workinga maximum of about a day a week.
But the good thing about thatwas it coincided with the last
(29:25):
six months of my master's andthe research that I needed to
do.
So I just took it as a massivegift and I plowed straight into
my master's and I pretty muchstudied full time for that six
months.
And coincidentally, and I don'tknow what happens in the water
or in the universe, but the dayI did my final presentation,
which was something like the 7thof August, on the 8th of August,
(29:46):
I got three calls from threeclients.
And I hadn't done any businessdevelopment.
I hadn't looked for work at all.
I mean, it was just so bizarrehow the work came back to me
when I needed it.
I needed the money and I had thecapacity.
But since then, I just try andkeep a lid on it.
So now I am working about a daya week, probably on average.
(30:06):
Sometimes it goes to nothing.
Sometimes it picks up today andafter two days, but it really,
it varies depending on theclient load.
Very, very selective about whatI take.
I run workshops, which pay alittle bit from in 10 years
time.
And I do those corporately aswell as for individuals.
And I work as a songwriter,which doesn't pay.
So the way the economics ofsongwriting works are you punt
(30:27):
to write, you write withartists, you write for You do
everything free at the point ofuse, but you hope that the song
gets cut and that the returncomes down the line.
So there's a big lag on anyeconomic return in songwriting.
It's a very, very unfairindustry for songwriters.
We're very, very, very poorlycompensated for the work that we
(30:47):
do and the expertise that wehave.
And I perform.
I'm on tour right now.
I know it doesn't look like itbecause there's no bus, but I am
actually on tour right now.
So it's a real kind of jugglingact.
I have to be very careful aboutwhat I do and don't do.
I have to say no to things thatare not a priority for me
because otherwise I end upbeyond my capacity and that
doesn't help me.
But I wouldn't change it.
(31:09):
I absolutely love it.
I don't mind the fact that I'malways on seven days a week.
That doesn't bother me.
Some people ask me, you know,how do you manage you don't have
a weekend and I wouldn't tradeit.
And yeah, it's been the bestthing that I've ever done.
It's been brilliant.
And I just want to encourageeverybody else to do it as well.
SPEAKER_01 (31:26):
Yeah, and you are doing.
Tell me what your thoughts arefor the future.
So
SPEAKER_00 (31:31):
in 10 years time, I would like to have continued my
research to finish a PhD.
And exciting news is that I havejust been offered a funded PhD,
which starts in October.
So that's Fresh news as of lastweek.
So this is the value of the10-year plan because I wrote
that on my 10-year plan that Iwould like to do a master's or
(31:54):
further education.
And then I update my 10-yearplan kind of every three days.
to four months.
So a good two or three times ayear, I update my 10-year plan
because it's not a bindingcontract where you go, in 10
years, I've done that.
And then you sit down and have arest.
Life evolves.
And so once I'd done themaster's, I was like, do you
know what?
I'm not done with research.
I'd really like to do somethingeven more in depth and do a PhD.
(32:15):
And so I spent about nine monthsworking on my PhD proposal.
It was quite in depth, you know,not constantly, but going in and
out of it.
So just even to be able todescribe that and say that
that's in your future, it allowsyou to kind of understand
understand and feel the energyassociated with how it would
feel if you did a PhD.
The research is just such apassion for me.
(32:35):
I've become completely addictedto it.
So, yeah, so that's definitelyin the future.
And my kind of overall aim is tolive to my means from my
creativity.
That's what I would like to bedoing.
I mean, I do love my consultingwork and I love the things I can
do well, the facilitation andthe workshops and the
communication parts of it.
I really enjoy.
But I would love to be in aposition where I'm living fully
(32:58):
from my creativity in 10 yearstime would be the dream.
And encouraging other people todo the same as well.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:06):
That's been such a super chat, Tricia.
Thank you so much.
How can people connect with youand all the things that you do?
SPEAKER_00 (33:13):
So I am in 10 years time and it's T-E-N the word
rather than the number dot comis my website in 10 years time
dot com.
On Instagram and Facebook, I amin 10 years time official.
And my music, my artist projectname is Little Lore.
That's L-O-R-E, like a folklore,like a small story.
(33:34):
I believe that songs, the ones Iperform for myself are little
distilled stories.
And the website is littler.ukand I am Little Lore music on
all of the Fantastic.
Thanks again, Tricia.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's such a lovely conversation.
I love everything that you do.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (33:54):
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you did, perhaps you'd liketo financially contribute to
future episodes atbuymeacoffee.com slash
creativityfound.
There's a link in the shownotes.
If you are listening on a valuefor value enabled app, such as
Fountain, True Fans or PodcastGuru, feel free to send a few
(34:16):
sats my way.
And if you have no idea of whatI'm talking about, you can find
out more by listening to mysister podcast called Podcasting
2.0 in practice.
TV was, and still is, has a lot of kind of gender
bias in it, in that creativepeople are men, editorial jobs,
producers, directors tended tobe male, and women were very
much pointed towardsadministrative, business,
commercial roles.
(00:29):
My whole narrative about myself,having been an entertainer, you
know, considered myself a fullycreative person.
I started to tell myself astory.
This is in my mid-20s that Iwasn't a creative person.
Also wasn't an academic personbecause I somehow like an
interloper managed to get myselfin there without a degree.
I wanted to live with more artand aesthetics and music and I
(00:51):
wanted to know music better andI wanted to write songs and I
wanted to see whether I couldmake a go of it as a songwriter.
But I wouldn't eat it.
I absolutely love it.
I don't mind the fact that I'malways on seven days a week.
That doesn't bother me.
Some people ask me, you know,how do you manage you don't have
a weekend and I wouldn't tradeit.
And yeah, it's been the bestthing that I've ever done.
(01:12):
It's been brilliant.
And I just want to encourageeverybody else to do it as well.
SPEAKER_01 (01:18):
Hi, I'm Claire.
For this podcast, I chat withpeople who have found or
re-found their creativity asadults.
We'll explore their childhoodexperiences of the arts, discuss
how they came to the artisticpractices they now love, and
consider the barriers they mayhave experienced between the
two.
We'll also explore what it isthat people value and gain from
(01:42):
their newfound artisticpursuits, and how their creative
lives enrich their practical,necessary, everyday lives.
This time I'm chatting withTrisha Duffy.
Hi Trisha, how are you?
Hello, thank you so much forhaving me.
I'm a big fan of your show soit's really lovely to be on it.
(02:02):
Oh, thank you.
You're very welcome.
Start by telling me what yourcurrent creative outlet is or
maybe outlets
SPEAKER_00 (02:11):
are.
I guess I have two.
I'm a songwriter and I'm also apodcaster like you and my
podcast is about creativity.
So yeah, I'm very passionateabout living with creative
balance, however that looks.
My primary kind of creativeoutlet is as a songwriter, but I
also try and invest time in moreaesthetic pastimes so that I can
(02:36):
kind of keep that brainplasticity happening to help me
with my kind of well-being andcognitive function as I get
older.
But songwriting and podcasting,I guess, are the primary
outlets.
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
but
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
being open to it generally everywhere else as
well.
Exactly.
And then when you were younger,did creative activities play an
important part in your life,whether at home or in education?
I
SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
was a creative child because I loved singing and I
loved writing poetry.
Those were kind of my twooutlets.
It doesn't take a psych major tosee how I've become a songwriter
later on in life.
But I think we're of a similargeneration and it was a risk
averse kind of environment Igrew up in for good reason,
because my parents were bothwartime and post-war babies and
(03:27):
obviously had lived through kindof some significant lack and
scarcity and hardship.
And so for them, they were verykeen for me to explore career
ideas that allowed me to keeplights on, roof overhead and
food on the table.
So they were very kind of like,you can do your drama and you
(03:48):
can do your music, but you haveto do it as a hobby.
You need to think aboutsomething that's going to be
safer and more secure for a job.
And I completely understand thatand can't blame them for it at
all because we are all productsof our upbringing.
But it did mean that I had quitea lot of narratives and sort of
social expectations around kindof what being a good kind of
(04:10):
human, socially acceptablefeminist, etc.
And that was very much outsideof creativity, I guess.
Well, I really shocked my fatherwhen I said, OK, if I can't be
an actor, which is what I reallywanted to be, then I'm going to
be a social worker.
And he just put his head in hishands.
Oh, my God.
(04:30):
He was like, now I don't evenknow what to wish for.
Social worker, are you crazy?
SPEAKER_01 (04:37):
You didn't become a social worker, but when you then
finished school...
Did you have thoughts andactions on what you were going
to do to become this sensibleperson in society that keeps the
lights on?
SPEAKER_00 (04:50):
Oh, I guess I was quite rebellious.
I mean, I left school at 16 withno qualifications and my only
ambition at that time was to goto America.
I mean, I literally wascompletely single-minded because
I was so influenced bytelevision.
Those days we had, what, four ordid we have five channels?
We might have only had fourchannels.
We had four.
Four channels.
(05:10):
And...
The four channels had somefantastic television coming over
from the US.
Dynasty, Dallas and Moonlightingwere my three favorites, as well
as some comedies knocking aroundthere as well.
And I just, I mean, I just tookit completely off face value as
naive as I was.
When I was in my teens, I justlooked at the TV and I thought,
(05:32):
In America, you can do anything.
There's space, opportunity,there's money.
And I was living in an area justoutside Portsmouth, which was
not that salubrious.
And yeah, I just becamecompletely...
sure that if I could just get toAmerica my life would be
completely fine.
So as soon as I was 18 Iinterviewed for a job on cruise
(05:54):
ships which was the kind ofviable way that I could get to
America without doing itillegally or having a fortune to
be able to try and get some sortof visa which I didn't have the
money for that and yeah I'd onlyjust turned 19 when I left to go
to New York to work on cruiseships for the first time.
I mean, nobody did this as well.
I mean, most of my friendshipgroups, nobody went to
university, nobody reallytraveled that far to have this
(06:17):
opportunity and to kind of stepout of what was the normal kind
of path for people and go toAmerica.
All of my friends came to theairport with me, like a massive
send off because it was such anunusual thing to do.
I still look back on that nowand I just think it's absolutely
amazing.
They all came in like convoy,three carloads.
I said goodbye to my mom and dadat home and my friends came with
(06:39):
me and they took me right to thegate and waved me off as I went
through security.
It was crazy.
So then what was your job on thecruise ship?
So I spent the first yearworking as a gift shop assistant
because that was the job I couldget.
And I just campaigned from themoment I arrived there to...
get the entertainment departmentto use me.
So I would run the spotlight.
I would sing whenever theyneeded somebody extra to sing.
(07:01):
I would participate in anythingthey needed as like this sort of
free unpaid worker for theentertainment team.
And I did 11 months in the giftshop and came home after that
11-month contract and then just,again, went back to every single
cruise line saying, I'm ahostess.
I want to be a hostess.
I've just been doing this.
I've been volunteering and doingall of these things.
And the same cruise ship thatI'd been on before actually
(07:23):
hired me back as a hostess inthe entertainment department.
And then I spent another likethree and a half years on cruise
ships in the entertainmentdepartment.
So you were singing,entertaining, calling bingo,
telling jokes, host quiz shows,teach line dancing.
It was just a full onentertainment all day, every
day, keeping everybody happy andamused with our personalities
(07:44):
and our skills.
It was amazing and traveling allover the world.
My first run was New York toMontreal down the St.
Lawrence River.
So that was Canada and Americaall stops along the way.
You know, Maine and New England,what they call the file foliage
cruise, where it's allabsolutely stunning and you're
going down little waterways and,you know, the trees are orange
(08:06):
and beautiful either side of youand then I did Caribbean stint
so yeah you're in otherterritories then and Mexico and
then I did the Panama Canal I'vebeen through the Panama Canal
seven times which is quiteextraordinary really because the
ships that I was placed on justhappened to re-transition and I
did a stint out of San Diegodown to Mexico I did an Alaska
(08:28):
run one year and then we stoppedin Barcelona in 1992 for the
Olympic Games and became a hotelfor the Games and then crossed
the Atlantic to New York wherethey started the same similar
runs, the four foliage.
You change route basically threeor four times a year to follow
the weather and the customerrequirements, I guess.
SPEAKER_01 (08:48):
Fabulous.
Why did you stop that?
What was your reasoning?
What was your plan for happeningnext?
So
SPEAKER_00 (08:57):
I wanted to travel...
differently I sort of got thetravel bug from being on cruise
ships but on cruise ships as youcan imagine you are you never
really get to understand aculture of a place in terms of
what happens in the eveningsprimarily because you're there
during the day most of the timeand we used to have the odd
overnight in Puerto Rico andplaces like that but generally
(09:18):
speaking we worked in theevenings and we saw places
during the day when at theirmost beautiful one could argue
so a new bug came which was youknow I'm a traveler now and I
understand different culturesand I I can get myself from A to
B.
I understand how things work.
And I'd like to travel somewherewhere I could stay in a place
and actually see it in a littlebit more detail.
(09:38):
And so I cooked up a plan.
I'd saved a lot of money.
So I was quite wealthy.
So for my first year, my first11 month contract, I broke even
and I had to get a job in akaraoke bar in Portsmouth to
manage over the time that I washome before I went back onto
cruise ships as a hostess.
When I went back though,hostess, I earned pretty good
money.
You have all your food paid for.
I mean, it wasn't like a bigsalary, but I didn't have really
(09:59):
anything to spend it on.
You know, no accommodation, nofood.
I didn't pay tax because I wasnot domiciled anywhere.
I was on what they call a C1D,which is a seaman's visa.
You don't live anywhere.
I had no dependents, noexpenses.
All I had to do was occasionallybuy myself a formal dress for
the formal leave.
That was pretty much it.
So I saved really well.
I used to get postal orders andput them in the post to my mum
(10:20):
and dad and they put them in thebank for me.
That was the system in thosedays.
And so I came home with quite afew savings and I decided that I
wanted to go traveling.
So I went off to Australia andSoutheast Asia by myself for
about another 11 months, justbasically saw the world by
myself.
I went completely on my own.
And this is before mobile phonesas well.
So I was quite sort of likeindependently minded going off.
(10:43):
I don't know if I'd have thebravery to do it now, but I did
then.
And then after that, I thought,well, it's time for me to kind
of come home and get a jobbecause obviously I depleted
quite a lot of my savings atthat stage and I thought well it
seems logical to me that I workin telly because on the cruise
ships I was entertaining and Iwas scheduling events and
understanding how audiencesworked and all the rest of it
(11:05):
and I think that seems like alogical thing for me to do not
Knowing, as I now know, that inthose days to get a job in
television without a degree froma red brick university, whatever
one of those was, was unheardof.
I mean, you just couldn't evenget an interview because they
would cap at graduate.
If you weren't a graduate, youcouldn't even get through the
door.
(11:26):
But luckily for me, I had afriend who was a graphic
designer.
He'd gone to art school from thesame school that I'd been at and
he was working on a sports TVshow.
And I was going for interviewsand just getting absolutely
nowhere.
And he said to me, why don't youjust come in and shadow me?
They won't mind.
No one will care.
At least then next time you gofor an interview, you have an
(11:47):
idea what an edit suite lookslike and you've been into a TV
company.
And I went in and shadowed.
And while I was there, the execproducer said, oh, we haven't
got work experience next week.
Do you want to just do workexperience?
And so I went in the Monday tostart doing work experience.
And on the Tuesday afternoon, hesays, if you shadow the next two
days, the PA, you can have ashift on Saturday because
(12:07):
someone had been off sick for along term.
So I was just so lucky, right?
I right time that I got my firstpaid work.
And that girl that was off sick,she had glandular fever.
She was off sick for another sixweeks and I took all her shifts.
And that's how I got in.
That's how I started.
At the end of the six weeks, shecame back and she happened to
get promoted and I took her job,basically.
It was just so lucky.
(12:28):
But TV was, and still is, has alot of kind of gender bias in
it, in that creative people aremen.
editorial jobs, producers,directors tended to be male and
women were very much kind ofpointed quite clearly towards
administrative, business,commercial roles.
(12:51):
And it was very unusual to seegirls kind of finding roles
within the creative side ofthings.
And so my whole narrative aboutmyself, having been an
entertainer, you know,considered myself a fully
creative person, I started totell myself a story.
This is in my mid-twenties thatI wasn't a creative person, also
wasn't an academic personbecause I somehow like an
(13:12):
interloper managed to get myselfin there without a degree.
And I told myself this wholestory that I was better at the
business than the admin anyway,and I'm organized.
And I became very good at itbecause we do things long
enough, you become good atanything, right?
And so that was really likequite a big turning point in my
life where I started to discountmy own creativity and that part
(13:32):
of my whole identity, really.
SPEAKER_01 (13:34):
Yeah, I can understand how you kind of get
led.
You don't mean to, and it kindof leads you that way.
So then tell me about that wholetime.
Your working role then, how didthat develop?
And also, what about the rest oflife around work?
How did that carry on?
So
SPEAKER_00 (13:53):
I worked up the ranks within television really
successfully.
I mean, I had an amazing career,which I still do have a sort of
sideline in television because Istill keep that going as a
consultant now.
I worked through the ranks as aproduction assistant to
production coordinator toproduction manager.
Then I became head ofproduction.
Then I became head of productionand a broadcaster.
I worked at Sky.
(14:14):
I was responsible fornegotiating all of the content
that was original content forSky 1, 2 and 3 as it was in
those days.
I mean, we were doing brand newthings that had never been done
before, sort of like thepreamble before streaming as
it's now experienced today.
So it was quite exciting and Iworked on some quite kind of new
innovative things.
But as I say, always from thekind of commercial business side
(14:35):
of things.
And I decided to launch my ownbusiness, which I guess now I
look back on it was a preamblefor this whole kind of creative
life that I now live.
I wanted control about how Ispent my time.
By the time I decided to set upmy own business, I was working
as the, this sounds like W1A forany of your listeners who are
familiar with that story, but Iwas working at the BBC and my
(14:56):
job title, honest to God, washead of transformation.
Yes, it was.
I was responsible for saving abillion pounds over five years
and it It was obviously, as youcan imagine, a really difficult
job and not a popularity contestwinning job either.
Very, very, very hard.
Took all of me to do it.
I did it for four years.
(15:16):
I just became completely burntout because I would be in my
first meeting at eight and mylast one at six.
And there was zero time to doanything other than just rush
late to the next meeting.
It was like a perpetual cycle.
And I really, really wanted moretime with my children.
I had two kids by then.
And more time to decide how Iwould spend it because what I
(15:38):
observed at the BBC was that Iwould spend a lot of my time
what I would call buffing themachine that was of no value to
anybody at all as far as I couldtell.
It was of no value to thelicense fee payer.
It was of no value to audiences.
It was of no value to the staff.
And it certainly wasn't of anyvalue to me.
The first couple of years at theBBC, I really enjoyed it because
(15:58):
I went in there from thecommercial sector and was seen
as a breath of fresh air whereI'd be like, well, that's just
stupid.
We're just going to do it andcut through a lot of the crap
that the system wore me down.
And I, you know, I can remembergoing one time to the executive
committee to ask,metaphorically, to ask
permission to spend five quid.
It cost me 10 quid to askpermission to spend five quid
and I'm the expert.
(16:18):
It's just stupid.
It's just stupid, stupidmachine.
So, yeah, it really wore medown.
And at one point We had somebereavements within the family.
We had a bit of a loss and thatwas a wake up call for me.
And I was just like, I just gotto get out of here.
So I decided to launch my ownbusiness so that I would get
more control back.
And that's been running now for13 years.
(16:38):
And it was really successful.
I mean, as soon as I wasavailable in the marketplace to
do consulting work, to helppeople understand complex
problem solving in the mediasector and using my strategy
skills, I was really soughtafter.
So it was really successful andit just gave me control over
which allowed me to just choosenot to work Friday afternoons
and pick up my own kids fromschool or, you know, do my work
(17:00):
on a Sunday morning when my kidwas playing rugby in the
clubhouse.
No one cares when I did my work.
I could displace things.
And so that was my first tasteof how life could be.
I didn't need to be presenteeismat a desk from Monday to Friday,
nine to five minimum, andprobably a bit more either side.
I could actually control how Ispent my time.
(17:20):
And then alongside thatcreativity-wise, I still sang so
that was really the one thingthat I held on to was that I was
a singer and I sang in choirsand I got a part in a musical at
one stage I had singing lessonsregularly and I did some sort of
weekend type things but alwaysin the outside so it was very
much confined to being a hobby
SPEAKER_01 (17:39):
Funnily enough, I've done a lot of editing of this
podcast in the rugby clubhousewhile my son is playing on a
Sunday morning.
As you know, the season is whenthe weather is rubbish.
You know, you can only be thatsupportive of your child.
If it's raining, then I'm sorry.
No.
Exactly.
Take up tennis, for goodnesssake.
SPEAKER_00 (18:00):
Why can't we have a summer sport where the weather's
fine and they have proper seats?
SPEAKER_01 (18:04):
For goodness sake.
Oh, dear.
So, While you're doing thatconsulting, then that's really
good.
And you're doing the singing.
So at what point or was there acatalyst or was there a point at
which you started to say, I wantto be more involved with these
creative activities, with thesinging that I'm enjoying?
(18:25):
I want to make that a biggerpart of my life.
So what it was, right?
I
SPEAKER_00 (18:30):
joined a band.
You joined a band?
I joined a band as the leadsinger of a covers band.
And then from the covers band, Iended up in a duo with the lead
guitarist from that covers band.
Because of happenstance,somebody asked us, was there any
chance you could do a smallerthing in the day?
We were playing, like headlininga village fate.
(18:50):
Headlining a village fate, I'dsay.
Still
SPEAKER_01 (18:53):
headlining.
SPEAKER_00 (18:55):
Indeed.
And they needed somebody to filla slot in the afternoon and so
they said to me and Al who wasthe guitarist you two could do
something for an hour to fillthis gap song was dropped out
blah blah blah and so we endedup rehearsing something up and
so then I was in a duo and aband and the duo was quite
creative in that Al who I waswith was a very good musician
(19:16):
and he would be like if we'regoing to do a cover we're not
going to do a cover like thecover we'll do a head turning
version of it and we did thatfor a couple of years and then
one day I said to him We shouldwrite our own.
And he said, all right, youstart.
Let me know where you gotsomething or something along
those lines.
And I said, OK, fine, I will.
So I went on Udemy, you know,the website that has all the
(19:38):
courses for like Udemy.
Yeah.
And looked up how to writesongs.
I mean, literally, although Ihad written songs as a teenager,
along with my poetry and stuff,I still have little piles of
lyrics that I wrote as ateenager.
So it wasn't exactly my firsttime, but I thought, well, I
should look into how thishappens.
And so I went on this Udemycourse, it was 1099 in the
(20:00):
January sale, and I just startedwriting.
And I wrote one, and I sent itto him as a voice note, and I
played guitar terribly at thispoint as well I mean I literally
picked up the guitar and learntlike five chords so that I could
write a song and he took aboutthree days to listen to it when
I was in there he hates it andwhen he did actually finally
listen to it he was likeunbelievably, this is quite good
(20:22):
and has great potential.
I really like it.
And so he started working on themusic.
And so that's how the duo kindof started writing original
music.
I mean, as soon as I started, Iwas prolific.
I must have written about 40songs in the first year.
Most of them were rubbish, butwe had enough.
We had 12 that made an album.
So we actually released an albumthe following year.
(20:43):
And so that was enough.
It was still a hobby, though.
Still, it's in the sidelines,but it did really nurture me and
it gave me some sort of suckerthat helped me feel like much
more balanced and well-roundedthat I was writing songs.
I would write them whenever theycame to me, you know, just from
my instincts, learning a bit ofguitar, getting a little bit
better on guitar, playing a fewgigs every now and then with Al
(21:07):
in the covers band still aswell, which was fun.
And yeah, and then working myown business, which gave me time
back so that if I did have anafternoon, I could write some
lyrics or whatever, you know, Ihad a balance that seemed to be
quite satisfactory.
And then the pandemic hits.
And this is when there wasanother big shift in I guess
it's worth saying that duringthat time where I'd sort of had
(21:29):
this, you know, I work as aconsultant and it's not just a
cottage industry, it's a properbusiness.
And I have this other thing thatI'm a songwriter and I do this
as a sideline.
It's my hobby.
That felt quite satisfactory tome, but I still told myself a
little bit of a story that Iwasn't a creative person.
I write songs, but I'm better atbusiness.
That's where my strength is.
(21:49):
And during the pandemic, As youmight imagine, the television
industry, which is my specialismin my consulting business, was
absolutely decimated.
So the work really, really driedup.
And the work that I did have,the remaining bits of work that
I had, all the joy went out ofthem because I was no longer
with flat edged pen andwhiteboard in a meeting, kind of
(22:09):
taking people through a journey,which when I look back on it
now, the performative aspects ofbeing a consultant were the
things that were also giving mea lot of nourishment in that,
you know, I was on stage almost,if you like, you know,
controlling a boardroom ofusually grumpy old men and
asking them really challengingquestions and putting them
through their paces and justtrying to help them to imagine a
(22:31):
future and all of these kind ofthings gave me a lot of kind of
joy.
And I was good at those things.
I'm a good communicator.
But I still didn't recognizethat as creativity.
I was still kind of tied up withthis whole social narrative of,
you know, I'm not a creativeperson.
But the pandemic gave me time tothink.
And I started to explore thisidea of using a 10-year plan,
(22:52):
which is a tool that I use withmy business clients on myself.
So this is how my podcast kindof arose as well.
But this is a couple of yearsbefore I decided to share it
with the world.
I was just doing it as apersonal little activity.
So 10-year planning, very, veryuseful tool for businesses
because it allows moreimagination.
It stops them from the wholekind of three years or we would
never be able to do that becausein three years we wouldn't have
(23:13):
the money.
In 10 years, you can reallyallow yourself to be
imaginative.
So I just started doing a little10-year planning process on my
own, very quietly.
I didn't tell anyone I was doingit.
I just started doing it formyself.
And I wrote an article onLinkedIn about why we needed
personal 10-year plans.
And so many people starteddirect messaging me on LinkedIn
going, I just saw your article.
How are you managing to balancebeing a songwriter and being a
(23:35):
consultant?
I'm a photographer.
I'm an artist.
I'm a this.
I'm a that.
And I want to do it.
And so I bravely changed myLinkedIn profile to say
consultant slash songwriter.
And then that got another flurryof people getting in touch with
me going, how have you donethat?
How have you changed?
And I was like, I literallytyped it into LinkedIn and you
could do that too.
It's all just characters in abox.
(23:57):
Go ahead.
I say you can.
Just do it.
What's the worst that canhappen?
And around that time, I turned50 as well.
And I think that's quite anotherimportant factor that it gave me
a bit of confidence.
And it made me ask questionsabout what I might want for the
remaining half century of mylife and whether or not I was
happy with the balance that Ihad.
And I decided I wasn't.
I really wasn't.
And in 10 years time, I wantedto live a more creative life.
(24:18):
I wanted to live with more artand aesthetics and music.
And I wanted to know musicbetter.
And I wanted to write songs.
I wanted to see whether I couldmake a go of it as a songwriter.
And I didn't mind about havingless money because I had less
money in the pandemic and itdidn't bother me.
I just stopped spending it.
I stopped going out and I didn'tmind it.
I mean, obviously, there werehorrors in the pandemic, but
(24:40):
there was some good for me thatcame out of having less, being
more frugal.
It really served me very, verywell.
So although it felt quite scaryin the experience of it, it
really served me well because itmade me reframe what enough was,
how much I really needed, how Iwanted to spend my time versus
earning money for commoditiesthat I didn't really need or
(25:02):
enjoy.
So all of that kind of framinghappened and that caused me one
Tuesday morning for reasons thatare quite inexplicable, although
I can see how some of the kindof breadcrumbs that led me to
that when I look back on it.
I searched on the internet oneTuesday morning, sitting right
here at this desk, Masters inSongwriting.
I should say that I did do adegree in the meantime when I
(25:24):
was working full-time.
I did a degree with OpenUniversity because I did have
that chip on my shoulder aboutnot being a graduate.
And so I did a degree inEconomics and Social Science.
while I was working full time.
It took me six years through OU.
So I had a degree and I thought,well, maybe I can do a master's
in songwriting.
What would be, what's the worstthat can happen?
Maybe I can't.
I don't have a music degree.
I have an OU economics degree,but maybe I can.
(25:45):
And I filled in the form for aninstitution that's very close to
where I live, the Institute ofContemporary Music Performance.
They did a master's insongwriting.
It was one of the only in-personones that I could find.
Obviously, it's just off theback of the pandemic.
and I hadn't said anything toanybody about it not a single
person not even my family Ifilled in the form and the
admissions must have been havinga slow day I hit send and within
(26:07):
about three and a half minutes Iget a call hi admissions team at
ICMP should we pick you in foran audition I was like hang on a
minute I was just failed in theform oh well they said just do
the audition if you get offereda place you can decide whether
you want to accept it and I saidokay then booked in the time and
I thought better tell my familythat I decided to do this and I
(26:31):
yeah and I did a master's insongwriting it took me two years
and that gave me a lot ofconfidence in different aspects
so first of all academicconfidence which I really lacked
because of the whole leavingschool at 16 with no
qualifications it also gave meconfidence as a songwriter I was
able to learn how to write inlots of different And as you
know, Claire, my podcast is aresearch podcast.
(26:57):
It's a research-based podcast.
And so that gave me reallyfantastic foundations and tools
of how to research topics andhow to cite other people's
sources and all the rest of itso that I could create this
research-based podcast thatreally does exactly what I've
done, which is say, you know,I'm a researcher.
Do you want to live a creativelife?
It's not too late.
Just like you and CreativityFound as well.
(27:18):
It's never too late.
You are a creative person.
You always have been.
And here are some resources tosupport you to make that
transition.
SPEAKER_01 (27:25):
Your podcast is called In 10 Years Time, and
it's born out of you doing yourown 10 years time for yourself
and helping others do it, or atleast they can use some of the
tools.
They might not do all of it.
So then I'm going to go like theproof is in the pudding here,
Tricia.
When your TV consulting workcomes back because we're not in
(27:46):
COVID anymore, are you beingtrue to your mantra and how is
your life balancing work,creativity and making you feel
happy for what you want to feelhappy about?
SPEAKER_00 (28:01):
Such a good
SPEAKER_01 (28:01):
question.
SPEAKER_00 (28:02):
So I've done it in phases.
It's not a kind of switch offkind of thing.
I mean, you know, there arepractical elements to obviously
consider and consulting workpays very well.
Creative work does not pay atall well, as you know.
So there is a tension, afinancial tension.
In fact, I've just recorded anepisode all about the money and
(28:22):
the economics of the arts So Ifirst of all changed my work
life.
So I used to do up to fiveclients at a time in my
consulting business.
And there's two of us that runmy business, two consultants.
And Catherine, my colleague, shealso decided when I said I
wanted to do a master's, she waslike, I've been thinking about
it as well.
So she did a master's as well.
(28:42):
So we both punted together.
We did them part time.
So we decided together to gofrom five clients at a time to
three.
We would only take three at atime.
So that was our first decision.
And we knew, obviously, thatthere would be an economic
impact to that, but we wereprepared for it.
So that was the first stage.
But during the sort of two yearsthat I was doing my master's,
the last six months of it, themedia industry had another big
(29:04):
blip economically, coincidingwith recession here in the UK.
TV industry just had no money atall.
And a lot of places were banningno consultants, no consultants
for a few months.
which meant that the work prettymuch dried up.
Not entirely, but I was workinga maximum of about a day a week.
But the good thing about thatwas it coincided with the last
(29:25):
six months of my master's andthe research that I needed to
do.
So I just took it as a massivegift and I plowed straight into
my master's and I pretty muchstudied full time for that six
months.
And coincidentally, and I don'tknow what happens in the water
or in the universe, but the dayI did my final presentation,
which was something like the 7thof August, on the 8th of August,
(29:46):
I got three calls from threeclients.
And I hadn't done any businessdevelopment.
I hadn't looked for work at all.
I mean, it was just so bizarrehow the work came back to me
when I needed it.
I needed the money and I had thecapacity.
But since then, I just try andkeep a lid on it.
So now I am working about a daya week, probably on average.
(30:06):
Sometimes it goes to nothing.
Sometimes it picks up today andafter two days, but it really,
it varies depending on theclient load.
Very, very selective about whatI take.
I run workshops, which pay alittle bit from in 10 years
time.
And I do those corporately aswell as for individuals.
And I work as a songwriter,which doesn't pay.
So the way the economics ofsongwriting works are you punt
(30:27):
to write, you write withartists, you write for You do
everything free at the point ofuse, but you hope that the song
gets cut and that the returncomes down the line.
So there's a big lag on anyeconomic return in songwriting.
It's a very, very unfairindustry for songwriters.
We're very, very, very poorlycompensated for the work that we
(30:47):
do and the expertise that wehave.
And I perform.
I'm on tour right now.
I know it doesn't look like itbecause there's no bus, but I am
actually on tour right now.
So it's a real kind of jugglingact.
I have to be very careful aboutwhat I do and don't do.
I have to say no to things thatare not a priority for me
because otherwise I end upbeyond my capacity and that
doesn't help me.
But I wouldn't change it.
(31:09):
I absolutely love it.
I don't mind the fact that I'malways on seven days a week.
That doesn't bother me.
Some people ask me, you know,how do you manage you don't have
a weekend and I wouldn't tradeit.
And yeah, it's been the bestthing that I've ever done.
It's been brilliant.
And I just want to encourageeverybody else to do it as well.
SPEAKER_01 (31:26):
Yeah, and you are doing.
Tell me what your thoughts arefor the future.
So
SPEAKER_00 (31:31):
in 10 years time, I would like to have continued my
research to finish a PhD.
And exciting news is that I havejust been offered a funded PhD,
which starts in October.
So that's Fresh news as of lastweek.
So this is the value of the10-year plan because I wrote
that on my 10-year plan that Iwould like to do a master's or
(31:54):
further education.
And then I update my 10-yearplan kind of every three days.
to four months.
So a good two or three times ayear, I update my 10-year plan
because it's not a bindingcontract where you go, in 10
years, I've done that.
And then you sit down and have arest.
Life evolves.
And so once I'd done themaster's, I was like, do you
know what?
I'm not done with research.
I'd really like to do somethingeven more in depth and do a PhD.
(32:15):
And so I spent about nine monthsworking on my PhD proposal.
It was quite in depth, you know,not constantly, but going in and
out of it.
So just even to be able todescribe that and say that
that's in your future, it allowsyou to kind of understand
understand and feel the energyassociated with how it would
feel if you did a PhD.
The research is just such apassion for me.
(32:35):
I've become completely addictedto it.
So, yeah, so that's definitelyin the future.
And my kind of overall aim is tolive to my means from my
creativity.
That's what I would like to bedoing.
I mean, I do love my consultingwork and I love the things I can
do well, the facilitation andthe workshops and the
communication parts of it.
I really enjoy.
But I would love to be in aposition where I'm living fully
(32:58):
from my creativity in 10 yearstime would be the dream.
And encouraging other people todo the same as well.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:06):
That's been such a super chat, Tricia.
Thank you so much.
How can people connect with youand all the things that you do?
SPEAKER_00 (33:13):
So I am in 10 years time and it's T-E-N the word
rather than the number dot comis my website in 10 years time
dot com.
On Instagram and Facebook, I amin 10 years time official.
And my music, my artist projectname is Little Lore.
That's L-O-R-E, like a folklore,like a small story.
(33:34):
I believe that songs, the ones Iperform for myself are little
distilled stories.
And the website is littler.ukand I am Little Lore music on
all of the Fantastic.
Thanks again, Tricia.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's such a lovely conversation.
I love everything that you do.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (33:54):
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you did, perhaps you'd liketo financially contribute to
future episodes atbuymeacoffee.com slash
creativityfound.
There's a link in the shownotes.
If you are listening on a valuefor value enabled app, such as
Fountain, True Fans or PodcastGuru, feel free to send a few
(34:16):
sats my way.
And if you have no idea of whatI'm talking about, you can find
out more by listening to mysister podcast called Podcasting
2.0 in practice.
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