February 17, 2025 • 31 mins
Join us as visionary traveler, author, and photographer Jon Ortner talks about his extraordinary adventures across some of the world's most sacred landscapes. From the mystical realms of India's Amarnath Caves to the breathtaking heights of the Himalaya, Jon's passion for understanding and capturing the spiritual essence of ancient religions becomes a voyage of artistic and personal transformation. Hear about his 65-day trek through Nepal's Kali Gorge, where the interplay of nature and spirituality deepens his creative expression and purpose.
Embark on a visual and spiritual pilgrimage with Jon to the sacred city of Varanasi, where he documents intimate rituals along the Ganges River, culminating in his book "Every Breath is a Prayer." Then, journey with him to the Colorado Plateau, guided by Harold Simpson, a Dine descendant, to discover the enchanting beauty and spirituality of Native American sacred lands. Through evocative storytelling and stunning photography, this episode offers profound inspiration and insight into the transformative power of sacred journeys for artists, travelers, and spiritual seekers alike.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
When I was traveling in Australia, I went deep into
the outback, in the center ofthis amazing continent, and I
was taught about songlines.
Recently I was on a trip and Iwas talking with a fellow
musician about songlines and hesaid what are they?
How can you describe them?
The only way I could describethem is deep pulses that seem to
(00:28):
come from the stars and youfollow them, and if you wander
off your song line that you'refollowing, the pulses grow lower
and fade, and if you move backinto the center of it, they are
strong and insistent.
This is Chris McHale, andwelcome to Creativity to Gigi.
(00:51):
And today we are listening to astory from a visionary traveler
, john Ortner, who is a authorand photographer and who has
produced a series of absolutelygorgeous, drop-dead, compelling
(01:16):
books about his journey, hispilgrimage to the sacred
mountains and sacred rivers ofIndia, to the southwest canyons
and plateaus of America, all insearch of the heart of the world
.
Let's just sit back for aminute and listen to John tell
us his story.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
What propels you to be an artist?
And for me that has to do withpassion and falling in love with
something, and I don't thinkthat any art is produced without
this passion and the passionfor making the art.
And what does it give you?
So I asked my parents for abutterfly net and I started
(02:04):
collecting butterflies and Ithen started buying all the
guidebooks and I turned into afanatic, a nature lover, and
that's what propelled me tostart hiking, to become
interested in science.
And then, a little bit afterthat, I was watching TV and on
TV was Andy's gang, and onAndy's gang was Rama of the
(02:28):
Jungle, and essentially it wasthe Hardy Boys in India.
And I saw India and I saw theseyoung kids were going into the
jungles of India and they waslike the Hardy Boys in Asia, and
that to me was like theultimate adventure.
Eventually I read Siddhartha andI didn't even understand that
(02:50):
Siddhartha was the life of theBuddha.
So right after high school, Ijust got this bug why don't I go
to India?
So, me and my friends, rightout of high school, we go to
India.
So we were bumming around India.
We went to Kashmir.
There was a hippie who came toour houseboat on the lakes of
(03:13):
Kashmir and he said you know,there's this cave not too far
from here and all the holy mengo up to the cave and you should
go and check out this cave.
So, without knowing anything,we hired a porter and we took a
trek for a week up into theHimalaya, and, of course, it was
(03:34):
an unbelievable hike.
It was the first time that Ihad seen the Himalaya with these
turquoise lakes.
We trekked and we made it tothis cave and in the cave were
thousands of the Shiva holy men.
Now, when I, of course, startedstudying this and became more
versed in this, I found out thatthere are five million of these
(03:58):
sadhus and the sadhus are theascetics and they are the ones
that invented yoga, meditationand there's five million of them
wandering on pilgrimage inIndia.
And what we found out was thatthe place that we went to, which
is called Amarnath Caves, wasone of the key pilgrimage places
(04:20):
in all of India.
Not only that, we had come justbefore the giant festival, so
it was 10,000 holy men and twocrazy Western hippies who didn't
know anything.
And when we got up into thecave and were surrounded by all
these holy men, many of whospoke English.
(04:41):
And for the first time theytold me about the pilgrimages
and what was the purpose ofgoing on pilgrimage.
And the Sadhus said to me doyou know why you're here?
And I'd say no, we just walkedup here, I know nothing.
They said you are here fordarshan.
You were brought here for apurpose.
I said what is darshan?
(05:02):
He said darshan is sight, notjust regular sight, holy sight.
They turned to me and said youdidn't come here by accident.
You came here because you werebrought here for a reason.
And that just, of course, blewmy mind.
And when I saw the holy men, Iwent back to the university
(05:26):
where I was studying, and Istarted studying photography and
Eastern philosophy and Irealized that's what I wanted to
do with my life.
I wanted to take pictures ofthe oldest religion in the world
and I wanted to take picturesof these magical and mystical
places and tell these stories inmagazines et cetera.
(05:47):
So I went back to theUniversity of Kansas.
I started one of my professorswas the leading Sanskrit scholar
in the world I started studyingHinduism and Buddhism and then
I started going to India almostevery year and following the
Hindu holy men on theirpilgrimage routes.
So it was really an incrediblejourney and, of course, I
(06:11):
ultimately did find the innerspiritual nature of India and I
ended up going there many timesand it changed my life.
The next time I went to Asia, Iwent to Nepal.
I've spent most of my career inthe high Himalaya and what was
I studying was the highestmountains and the deepest gorges
(06:31):
in the world and the sacredrivers that come from the
Himalaya.
So it's a sacred topography,the oldest in the world, 10,000
millennia ago.
The more I learned about India,I did this combination.
I was interested not only inthe science of the Himalaya, the
(06:52):
highest mountains, the deepestgorges.
Everyone knows that the highestmountain on earth is Everest
and of course that's on theborder of Nepal and Tibet.
But few people know where thedeepest gorge in the world is,
and in central Nepal, chris, isa gorge that is three and a half
times as deep as the GrandCanyon.
(07:13):
It's called the Kali Gorge andMartha and I did an expedition
in the Kali Gorge 65 days in atent.
We walked over 500 miles.
So we started doing theseincredible expeditions through
the Himalaya, not only to thehighest mountains but to the
deepest gorges and the threedeepest gorges in the world the
(07:34):
Kali, the Marziandi and the BuriGandaki.
Those three gorges aremind-blowing because in the
bottoms of the gorges they'retropical and the tops of the
gorges go into Tibet, where itsnows even in July and August.
I had incredible experiencesand for the first 30 years of my
career, that's all I wasinterested in.
(07:57):
So I went to Bhutan and again,most people don't even know
where Bhutan is or have everheard of it.
It's the last Buddhist kingdomon earth.
It is in between China andIndia and the king owns
everything, including theairlines, and India, and the
king owns everything, includingthe airlines.
And in Bhutan, because it's astrict Buddhist society, there
(08:18):
is no killing whatsoever.
So fishing is illegal, huntingis illegal, and Martha and I
went to Bhutan and you have tohave permission from the
Bhutanese government to enterthe country.
At first they only left a fewhundred people a year in.
Now it's up to about 7,000 ayear that they allow in.
(08:38):
When Martha and I went in there, they only allowed about 5,000
people a year and we trekkedacross Bhutan a 30-day hike in
which we walked about 300 miles,and because there's been no
hunting, we had herds of bluesheep that had never been hunted
, and literally walked to within10 feet of us, and at night in
(09:02):
our tent we heard snow leopardsup into the mountains echoing
through the high peaks.
So everywhere we went in, theHimalaya was a magical
experience and we ended uphiking the Himalaya of India,
the Himalaya of Nepal, bhutan,tibet and Ladakh.
And I never really wanted tophotograph in America until I
(09:26):
happened to open a magazine andin that magazine I saw pictures
of a place that looked like Mars, and now I know that that is
the Grand Staircase EscalanteNational Monument.
So for the first time I stoppedgoing to Asia and I started
going to the American wilderness, and then for the next 10 or 15
(09:47):
years I was only interested inthe canyons and deserts of the
American West.
So my books are all acombination of fine art,
photography and scholarship,because I try to explain well
why is this important, how didthis come to be, why is it
worthy of taking pictures of itand why should we be interested
(10:11):
either in the Asian cultures orin the deserts and canyons of
the American West?
So my first book was when EveryBreath is a Prayer, a
photographic pilgrimage into thespiritual heart of Asia.
Then the next book I did was wehappened to be working in
Bangkok on one of our trips.
(10:32):
Angkor Wat opens for the firsttime in 30 years.
I dropped everything and wehopped on a plane and we went to
Angkor.
Of course, angkor Wat is thelargest religious building in
the world, with more stone thanthe pyramids.
And not only is Angkor there inthe jungles of northern
Cambodia, but hundreds andhundreds of other sacred temples
(10:55):
in the jungles of Cambodia.
So while we were shooting there, the Khmer Rouge surrendered,
pol Pot died and it opened fortourism.
And for 10 years, on and off,we worked in Cambodia.
So the Angkor book was a $95museum book with slipcase, et
(11:16):
cetera.
And again I had to figure outwell, why was I there?
And I had to become an experton the Khmer civilization.
And these temples were Hinduoriginally, so they were Shiva
temples and Vishnu temples, andthen in the 16th century,
buddhism came to Cambodia andthe later temples are Buddhist.
(11:37):
So it all filled, it all fit inwith my love of sacred
topography and Hindu andBuddhist iconography, and that
continued.
So the first book was whenEvery Breath is a Prayer.
It's about Hindu pilgrimage andthe sacred mountains.
And then came the Buddha book,which was about Buddhist artwork
(12:00):
and Buddhist templearchitecture, and then Angkor.
And then, after doing thosethree books on Eastern
philosophy, all of a sudden Idecided that I was going to
start doing something on Americaand I started going to the
Vermilion Cliffs Wilderness andthe Grand Staircase and that's
(12:20):
when I came out with CanyonWilderness of the Southwest,
which was a five-year projectgoing to all the slot canyons
and the rare locations on theHopi and Navajo tribal lands.
So all of my books.
To kind of go to the heart ofthe matter is that all of my
books were created because I hada passion about these places.
(12:45):
I found a place that thrilledme, that I thought was worthy
and that I thought that otherpeople needed to see.
So I never thought of money.
I never thought how am I goingto make money with this?
First I wanted to go to a placethat thrilled me, that I had a
passion, a desire to go to, andof course, all of these were
(13:08):
amazing adventures.
And I look back now at all therisky things that I did between
climbing in the Himalaya andtraveling all through India, and
I just think how lucky I wasthat I never got hurt and all of
my adventures were fantastic,and later on I started going to
Myanmar, which is most peopleknow as Burma, and there that
(13:32):
country is now closed andthey're having a horrible civil
war.
So it's amazing how even accessto these places goes up and
down through history andsometimes you have to be very
patient to to gain entry tothese places.
And all this time, while I wasgoing back and forth to Asia,
(13:52):
martha and I moved into the cityand I had to figure out a way.
Well, how am I going to makemoney to continue these
expeditions through SoutheastAsia?
And so I decided that I wasgoing to become a real estate
photographer and I started.
I had always been photographingthe skyline of Manhattan, and
then I started becominginterested in skyscrapers and I
(14:14):
started shooting portraits ofthese new skyscrapers.
And I was just so lucky becauseI fell into a part of
photography that not that manypeople were doing and which I
could make a lot of money veryquickly.
So I would work for six orseven months.
I'd put together $30,000.
As soon as I had that money,boom, I was back to Cambodia or
(14:37):
back to Nepal or back to India.
So I did actually have to havesome commercial support for all
of this, but it was all drivenby beauty and what I love.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
It's interesting because I think it was from one
of your material, some of thematerial that you gave me about
this quote from Terry TempestWilliams A wilderness reminds us
of what it means to be human,what we are connected to rather
than what we are separated from.
So, like your search throughthese areas seem to be, you're
looking in the wilderness forthat essential humanness, in a
(15:09):
way.
I mean the roots of what we are, of who we are.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Exactly.
You know, when I first thefirst book, where Every Breath
Is a Prayer, was filled withportraits and I did hundreds of
portraits Since I was followingthe holy men I decided that I
was going to start shooting therarest portraits of these
ascetics.
So for years I shot portraitsof the holy men and I think the
(15:33):
most amazing place that I didthat was in Varanasi, also known
as Benares, and that's theholiest city in all of India.
That is where the Ganges Rivercomes down from the Himalaya and
goes across India and Benaresis the oldest continuously
inhabited city in the world.
(15:53):
Now, if you Google, sometimesthey say Damascus is the oldest
city in the world, but generallyBenares is considered the
oldest city in the world.
And what drew me there?
First of all, it was the cityof Shiva.
All the holy men must come toVaranasi, to the city of light,
(16:15):
to that city.
So it's the oldest continuouslyinhabited city in the world.
It's the city of Shiva.
But then also I was astoundedit's the oldest crematorium in
the world.
The goal of most Hindus in Indiais to be burned on the Ganges
in Benares.
So I knew that I wanted tophotograph the crematoriums and
(16:40):
how they burn the bodies on theGanges River.
Well, when I got there I foundout that it's illegal to
photograph the cremations.
And I was there for a month andI was trying to figure out.
And even National Geographic,when they did a story on Benares
, they snuck the photographsillegally.
They went at night and took aboat out on the Ganges and then
(17:03):
shot back to the burningcremation fires.
I decided, no, that's not whatI want.
I want to do intimate closeupsof the sadhus who are
officiating at the crematoriumand who are burning the bodies.
And I happened to be walkingthrough there without my camera
and I had a little guide, ayoung boy 12 years old, that I
(17:25):
paid to take me around, buy meoranges etc.
And he brought me to this guyand the guy said to him why
don't you come back, have teawith me?
Don't bring your camera, I wantto talk to you.
So Martha said don't go,they're going to rip you off.
This is a trap or whatever.
I go back and the guy explainsto me that his father and his
(17:47):
family owned the Burning Gutsand that he was in control of
the burning guts.
Well, I had a blad of the bookthat I was working on, where
Every Breath Is a Prayer.
The book hadn't come out yet,but I had pictures from it,
where I had taken pictures ofall the holy men.
(18:08):
I showed it to him and he saidokay, I see that this is going
to be an incredibly importantbook and that you're delving
into the importance of Shivaworship and you're delving into
the importance of Benares.
And I'll tell you what.
You can come up into my roomabove the crematorium and I'll
(18:31):
let you take pictures of theburning bodies.
And I said yes, but I've heard,when the police see tourists
trying to do this, they come upto you and then they extort huge
money from you.
Then he explained to me no, thepolice are mine, they will not
bother you because you're withme and this is my property and
my family's property.
And in when Every Breath is aPrayer is not only the picture,
(18:54):
one picture where 12 bodies arebeing burned at once and of
course, what happens is theybring the body down to the river
and first it is dipped into theholy Ganges to purify it and
sanctify it.
Then the body is put on a pileof wood and the fire is started
and the body is burned.
(19:15):
If you're wealthy enough, youcan afford sandalwood and the
bodies are burned on thisfragrant sandalwood, but the
average Indian is just born onregular firewood.
Once the body is burned,special holy men who are allowed
to touch the defiled deadbodies then take the ashes, and
(19:37):
the ashes are then pushed intothe Ganges.
And I was able to photographall the most secret and
unphotographed traditions,traditions that have been going
on for 10 millennium, that noother photographer had actually
done.
And so, throughout my career, Ifeel that I've been blessed,
(19:57):
that because my aim was so pure,because I was not trying to
make money with it, I wasn'ttrying to do anything other than
show the beauty of theseancient traditions and the
importance of these ancienttraditions that I was given
access, over and over again, tothings that most people had
never even seen, let alonephotograph.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Did you feel you were trespassing a little bit there?
Speaker 1 (20:23):
at all.
No, I never felt that way.
You never felt that way.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
I was only 19 years old when I first went to India,
never felt that way.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
I was only 19 years old when I first went to India,
so I was kind of an old Indiahand.
I had been there so many timesand I had such great respect for
the Shiva worshipers, theascetics, the temples and I
didn't feel I was trespassing.
I would always think back tothe Amarnath cave, sadhu, who
(20:47):
said you're here for darshanHoly sight, and not only that,
you were brought here.
So even though I don't reallybelieve in fate, when I look
back I have to think that mycareer has been just magical and
I seem to have made the rightchoices all along.
(21:08):
Are these photographs in thisbook yes, all of them.
And that's the first book whenEvery Breath is a Prayer, and
then the subtitle is APhotographic Pilgrimage into the
Spiritual Heart of Asia,Essentially everywhere that
Buddhist and Hindu, the twogreat sacred meditative
religions, are worshipped, andof course those are the
(21:31):
religions that came from theHimalaya and it's essentially
the worship of the highestmountains in the world and the
sacred rivers that come downfrom the Himalaya.
Then even the Buddha book alsohas incredible images of
Buddhist art and Buddhisttemples and temple iconography.
So all of the books kind ofexplain this, but primarily
(21:54):
these are fine art books.
I'm trying to show theseobjects, these ancient
traditions, in the mostbeautiful way that I could.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
And these are available for sale, right?
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yes, yes, where Every Breath is a Prayer is on Amazon
and it's selling because it'sout of print.
I mean it's not expensive atall.
Originally it was like a $60book.
I see copies of it now for $15.
Same with Buddha.
So, yes, these books are allavailable.
Just type the name into Amazonor just type my name, as long as
(22:27):
you spell it J-O-N, because I'ma Jonathan, so it's John Ortner
and all the books will come up.
And the new book that we justdid, which is this black and
white book that is Visions ofParadise, american Wilderness,
and that for 15 years I've beenshooting the American Wilderness
.
So it's pretty much the Westthat you know Bryce Canyon, zion
(22:53):
Canyon, yosemite, yellowstonebut then the West that you don't
know the Vermilion CliffsWilderness, the Grand Staircase
and the, like I said, the Hopiand the Dina sacred Navajo lands
.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So are you connecting the spirit you're feeling in
the American continent with thespirit you're feeling in the
Eastern continent?
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Very much so, because many of the places that I
photographed were on Hopi andDina land, even Monument Valley,
where Hollywood shot so manymovies.
Don't forget, in MonumentValley you're only allowed
Westerners, white people.
You're on the reservation anddon't forget, they own the
(23:37):
reservation, so you areessentially a white trespasser.
So in order even to go toMonument Valley, first you have
to pay an entrance fee.
Then you are only allowed to goon the 17-mile road that is
open to white people.
Now, as soon as you step out ofyour car, if you start walking
(24:00):
across the deserts in MonumentValley, that is against the law.
You are now trespassing.
So you have to have either aHopi guide or a Navajo guide
with you once you go into thewilderness of Monument Valley.
And another quick, funny storyso I go to Monument Valley for
(24:20):
canyon wilderness.
I've got this contract and I'mdoing this huge book on the
Colorado Plateau, the canyons,deserts and slot canyons of the
Colorado Plateau.
So I go to Monument Valley, Ihire a guy to come and pick me
up at four in the morning sothat I can get to these prime
places before sunrise.
(24:41):
And don't forget, I'm using aview camera, the way Ansel Adams
did.
So I have to assemble my cameraand I have to put sheet film
and a 120 roll film.
So I have to do all of this inthe dark.
So I hire a guide and he showsup, and he shows up late.
I miss the sunrise.
(25:02):
I smell alcohol on his breath.
I'm very disappointed.
I pay him the $300 anywaybecause I felt so guilty and so
bad.
So then two days go by.
I said I got to get a differentguy.
I hire another guy who wasgoing to take me up to Hunts
Mesa, a very remote part ofMonument Valley.
Well, he shows up 3 o'clock.
(25:25):
We get in his car.
We get halfway to Hunts Mesa,his car breaks down.
And same thing, I pay him $300,I feel bad, he needs to fix his
car.
So now I've been there fivedays, I haven't gotten anything
unusual, nothing.
I'm staying at a Marriott hotelor something, and I see the
(25:46):
manager and I tell him that I'ma pro photographer, I'm working
on a book, and I say I've hiredtwo guys, I spent $600, I
haven't gotten a single goodpicture yet.
He says well, that's becauseyou don't have the right guy.
I said, oh really, who's theright guy?
He said Harold Simpson.
I said oh really, who's theright guy?
He said Harold Simpson.
I said well, that doesn'treally sound like a Navajo name.
(26:08):
He said, au contraire, he's thegreat grandson of Gray Whiskers
, a famous Dine chief.
So I call up Harold Simpson andHarold says to me well, you
know, I've worked on Hollywoodmovies.
I know all the locations.
I have a new truck.
Why don't you meet me at the7-Eleven?
I'll go over your shoot listand then we'll arrange to shoot.
(26:31):
So I said OK, great, how am Igoing to recognize you?
He said oh, you won't have anytrouble recognizing me.
I'm 6'3", I weigh about 300pounds and I'm an albino.
I weigh about 300 pounds andI'm an albino.
I said you're an albino Navajo.
He said yes, I go to the7-Eleven.
(26:56):
There is a mountain of a manwith Johnny Winter white hair
down to his shoulders.
That was Harold Simpson, thegreat grandson of Gray Whiskers.
Harold started taking me around,day after day.
He took me to all the sacredplaces of the Dina, and the
first day he took me to MysteryValley, and on and on and on.
And I'll never forget.
I asked Harold.
(27:16):
I said well, I've seen thesephotographs where the dunes are
orange.
There's a place in MonumentValley with bright orange dunes.
He said yeah, I know where thatis, I'll take you there.
So another day he shows up atthree o'clock with his new truck
.
We go, we're driving for anhour.
He pulls over on the side ofthe road and he and this is
again in the dark, okay, and wayoff in the distance.
(27:40):
He gets out of the truck.
He says do you see that rise?
About two miles away, that way,way over there.
I said yeah.
He says start walking.
That's where you're going.
I said really.
He said get going or you'regoing to miss sunrise.
So I leave Harold at the truckand I start walking in the dark.
I'm walking, and walking, andwalking.
I get to the base of this giantsand dune.
(28:02):
I'm wearing a 40-pound packwith film tripods and large
format cameras.
I go up the dune, I make it tothe top of the dune, the sun
rises, the dunes are orange foras far as the eye can see and I
get this incredible shoot Aftera couple of hours of shooting.
(28:25):
And of course it was the springand all the great pictures of
the dunes of Monument Valley arein the spring.
The wind makes ripples andpatterns in the fine sand, and
this is not regular sand.
This is sand that is almostlike talcum powder.
It is so soft and so even veryhard to walk through and
(28:48):
absolutely stunningly beautiful.
So I climb this giant dune, Iget my shots with the orange
dunes, with the wind patternsall over them, and I start
walking back.
The sun is now coming up and Ismell the sage.
The sage is heating up from thesun and it's like perfume.
And as I'm coming back from thewind, I hear these notes
(29:13):
floating.
And I'm walking and I'm going.
What Is that?
The wind?
Or is that some kind of musicthat I'm hearing?
As I'm walking, I'm hearingwhat is kind of like a flute
sound.
I keep walking off in thedistance.
Three quarters of a mile away,I see a giant boulder.
There is Harold with his whitehair sitting on the boulder
(29:37):
playing the Navajo flute.
And at that moment, the smellof the sage, the sound of the
Navajo flute and miles ofcolored sand dunes.
And I realized this is thesacred land of the Native
Americans.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
This has been Creativity to Gigi, and we have
(30:27):
been listening to an amazingstory from John Ortner
photographer, author, traveler,pilgrim, who, with his wife,
martha McGuire, has traveled theworld in search of sacred
places, photographing andwriting about them in a series
of amazing books that I highlyrecommend Just beautiful books,
and if you go to OrtnerPhotocomyou can kind of follow the path
to where you can buy thesethings.
Support John and his work.
This is Chris McHale.
Thank you so much for listening.
You get a chance to subscribeto this podcast.
(30:47):
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I mean, membership is free.
We're building all sorts ofreally interesting creative
projects.
We're following our songlinesthrough the digital world and
(31:09):
getting to someplace reallyinteresting.
This has been Creativity toGigi, and thank you so much for
listening.
When I was traveling in Australia, I went deep into
the outback, in the center ofthis amazing continent, and I
was taught about songlines.
Recently I was on a trip and Iwas talking with a fellow
musician about songlines and hesaid what are they?
How can you describe them?
The only way I could describethem is deep pulses that seem to
(00:28):
come from the stars and youfollow them, and if you wander
off your song line that you'refollowing, the pulses grow lower
and fade, and if you move backinto the center of it, they are
strong and insistent.
This is Chris McHale, andwelcome to Creativity to Gigi.
(00:51):
And today we are listening to astory from a visionary traveler
, john Ortner, who is a authorand photographer and who has
produced a series of absolutelygorgeous, drop-dead, compelling
(01:16):
books about his journey, hispilgrimage to the sacred
mountains and sacred rivers ofIndia, to the southwest canyons
and plateaus of America, all insearch of the heart of the world
.
Let's just sit back for aminute and listen to John tell
us his story.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
What propels you to be an artist?
And for me that has to do withpassion and falling in love with
something, and I don't thinkthat any art is produced without
this passion and the passionfor making the art.
And what does it give you?
So I asked my parents for abutterfly net and I started
(02:04):
collecting butterflies and Ithen started buying all the
guidebooks and I turned into afanatic, a nature lover, and
that's what propelled me tostart hiking, to become
interested in science.
And then, a little bit afterthat, I was watching TV and on
TV was Andy's gang, and onAndy's gang was Rama of the
(02:28):
Jungle, and essentially it wasthe Hardy Boys in India.
And I saw India and I saw theseyoung kids were going into the
jungles of India and they waslike the Hardy Boys in Asia, and
that to me was like theultimate adventure.
Eventually I read Siddhartha andI didn't even understand that
(02:50):
Siddhartha was the life of theBuddha.
So right after high school, Ijust got this bug why don't I go
to India?
So, me and my friends, rightout of high school, we go to
India.
So we were bumming around India.
We went to Kashmir.
There was a hippie who came toour houseboat on the lakes of
(03:13):
Kashmir and he said you know,there's this cave not too far
from here and all the holy mengo up to the cave and you should
go and check out this cave.
So, without knowing anything,we hired a porter and we took a
trek for a week up into theHimalaya, and, of course, it was
(03:34):
an unbelievable hike.
It was the first time that Ihad seen the Himalaya with these
turquoise lakes.
We trekked and we made it tothis cave and in the cave were
thousands of the Shiva holy men.
Now, when I, of course, startedstudying this and became more
versed in this, I found out thatthere are five million of these
(03:58):
sadhus and the sadhus are theascetics and they are the ones
that invented yoga, meditationand there's five million of them
wandering on pilgrimage inIndia.
And what we found out was thatthe place that we went to, which
is called Amarnath Caves, wasone of the key pilgrimage places
(04:20):
in all of India.
Not only that, we had come justbefore the giant festival, so
it was 10,000 holy men and twocrazy Western hippies who didn't
know anything.
And when we got up into thecave and were surrounded by all
these holy men, many of whospoke English.
(04:41):
And for the first time theytold me about the pilgrimages
and what was the purpose ofgoing on pilgrimage.
And the Sadhus said to me doyou know why you're here?
And I'd say no, we just walkedup here, I know nothing.
They said you are here fordarshan.
You were brought here for apurpose.
I said what is darshan?
(05:02):
He said darshan is sight, notjust regular sight, holy sight.
They turned to me and said youdidn't come here by accident.
You came here because you werebrought here for a reason.
And that just, of course, blewmy mind.
And when I saw the holy men, Iwent back to the university
(05:26):
where I was studying, and Istarted studying photography and
Eastern philosophy and Irealized that's what I wanted to
do with my life.
I wanted to take pictures ofthe oldest religion in the world
and I wanted to take picturesof these magical and mystical
places and tell these stories inmagazines et cetera.
(05:47):
So I went back to theUniversity of Kansas.
I started one of my professorswas the leading Sanskrit scholar
in the world I started studyingHinduism and Buddhism and then
I started going to India almostevery year and following the
Hindu holy men on theirpilgrimage routes.
So it was really an incrediblejourney and, of course, I
(06:11):
ultimately did find the innerspiritual nature of India and I
ended up going there many timesand it changed my life.
The next time I went to Asia, Iwent to Nepal.
I've spent most of my career inthe high Himalaya and what was
I studying was the highestmountains and the deepest gorges
(06:31):
in the world and the sacredrivers that come from the
Himalaya.
So it's a sacred topography,the oldest in the world, 10,000
millennia ago.
The more I learned about India,I did this combination.
I was interested not only inthe science of the Himalaya, the
(06:52):
highest mountains, the deepestgorges.
Everyone knows that the highestmountain on earth is Everest
and of course that's on theborder of Nepal and Tibet.
But few people know where thedeepest gorge in the world is,
and in central Nepal, chris, isa gorge that is three and a half
times as deep as the GrandCanyon.
(07:13):
It's called the Kali Gorge andMartha and I did an expedition
in the Kali Gorge 65 days in atent.
We walked over 500 miles.
So we started doing theseincredible expeditions through
the Himalaya, not only to thehighest mountains but to the
deepest gorges and the threedeepest gorges in the world the
(07:34):
Kali, the Marziandi and the BuriGandaki.
Those three gorges aremind-blowing because in the
bottoms of the gorges they'retropical and the tops of the
gorges go into Tibet, where itsnows even in July and August.
I had incredible experiencesand for the first 30 years of my
career, that's all I wasinterested in.
(07:57):
So I went to Bhutan and again,most people don't even know
where Bhutan is or have everheard of it.
It's the last Buddhist kingdomon earth.
It is in between China andIndia and the king owns
everything, including theairlines, and India, and the
king owns everything, includingthe airlines.
And in Bhutan, because it's astrict Buddhist society, there
(08:18):
is no killing whatsoever.
So fishing is illegal, huntingis illegal, and Martha and I
went to Bhutan and you have tohave permission from the
Bhutanese government to enterthe country.
At first they only left a fewhundred people a year in.
Now it's up to about 7,000 ayear that they allow in.
(08:38):
When Martha and I went in there, they only allowed about 5,000
people a year and we trekkedacross Bhutan a 30-day hike in
which we walked about 300 miles,and because there's been no
hunting, we had herds of bluesheep that had never been hunted
, and literally walked to within10 feet of us, and at night in
(09:02):
our tent we heard snow leopardsup into the mountains echoing
through the high peaks.
So everywhere we went in, theHimalaya was a magical
experience and we ended uphiking the Himalaya of India,
the Himalaya of Nepal, bhutan,tibet and Ladakh.
And I never really wanted tophotograph in America until I
(09:26):
happened to open a magazine andin that magazine I saw pictures
of a place that looked like Mars, and now I know that that is
the Grand Staircase EscalanteNational Monument.
So for the first time I stoppedgoing to Asia and I started
going to the American wilderness, and then for the next 10 or 15
(09:47):
years I was only interested inthe canyons and deserts of the
American West.
So my books are all acombination of fine art,
photography and scholarship,because I try to explain well
why is this important, how didthis come to be, why is it
worthy of taking pictures of itand why should we be interested
(10:11):
either in the Asian cultures orin the deserts and canyons of
the American West?
So my first book was when EveryBreath is a Prayer, a
photographic pilgrimage into thespiritual heart of Asia.
Then the next book I did was wehappened to be working in
Bangkok on one of our trips.
(10:32):
Angkor Wat opens for the firsttime in 30 years.
I dropped everything and wehopped on a plane and we went to
Angkor.
Of course, angkor Wat is thelargest religious building in
the world, with more stone thanthe pyramids.
And not only is Angkor there inthe jungles of northern
Cambodia, but hundreds andhundreds of other sacred temples
(10:55):
in the jungles of Cambodia.
So while we were shooting there, the Khmer Rouge surrendered,
pol Pot died and it opened fortourism.
And for 10 years, on and off,we worked in Cambodia.
So the Angkor book was a $95museum book with slipcase, et
(11:16):
cetera.
And again I had to figure outwell, why was I there?
And I had to become an experton the Khmer civilization.
And these temples were Hinduoriginally, so they were Shiva
temples and Vishnu temples, andthen in the 16th century,
buddhism came to Cambodia andthe later temples are Buddhist.
(11:37):
So it all filled, it all fit inwith my love of sacred
topography and Hindu andBuddhist iconography, and that
continued.
So the first book was whenEvery Breath is a Prayer.
It's about Hindu pilgrimage andthe sacred mountains.
And then came the Buddha book,which was about Buddhist artwork
(12:00):
and Buddhist templearchitecture, and then Angkor.
And then, after doing thosethree books on Eastern
philosophy, all of a sudden Idecided that I was going to
start doing something on Americaand I started going to the
Vermilion Cliffs Wilderness andthe Grand Staircase and that's
(12:20):
when I came out with CanyonWilderness of the Southwest,
which was a five-year projectgoing to all the slot canyons
and the rare locations on theHopi and Navajo tribal lands.
So all of my books.
To kind of go to the heart ofthe matter is that all of my
books were created because I hada passion about these places.
(12:45):
I found a place that thrilledme, that I thought was worthy
and that I thought that otherpeople needed to see.
So I never thought of money.
I never thought how am I goingto make money with this?
First I wanted to go to a placethat thrilled me, that I had a
passion, a desire to go to, andof course, all of these were
(13:08):
amazing adventures.
And I look back now at all therisky things that I did between
climbing in the Himalaya andtraveling all through India, and
I just think how lucky I wasthat I never got hurt and all of
my adventures were fantastic,and later on I started going to
Myanmar, which is most peopleknow as Burma, and there that
(13:32):
country is now closed andthey're having a horrible civil
war.
So it's amazing how even accessto these places goes up and
down through history andsometimes you have to be very
patient to to gain entry tothese places.
And all this time, while I wasgoing back and forth to Asia,
(13:52):
martha and I moved into the cityand I had to figure out a way.
Well, how am I going to makemoney to continue these
expeditions through SoutheastAsia?
And so I decided that I wasgoing to become a real estate
photographer and I started.
I had always been photographingthe skyline of Manhattan, and
then I started becominginterested in skyscrapers and I
(14:14):
started shooting portraits ofthese new skyscrapers.
And I was just so lucky becauseI fell into a part of
photography that not that manypeople were doing and which I
could make a lot of money veryquickly.
So I would work for six orseven months.
I'd put together $30,000.
As soon as I had that money,boom, I was back to Cambodia or
(14:37):
back to Nepal or back to India.
So I did actually have to havesome commercial support for all
of this, but it was all drivenby beauty and what I love.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
It's interesting because I think it was from one
of your material, some of thematerial that you gave me about
this quote from Terry TempestWilliams A wilderness reminds us
of what it means to be human,what we are connected to rather
than what we are separated from.
So, like your search throughthese areas seem to be, you're
looking in the wilderness forthat essential humanness, in a
(15:09):
way.
I mean the roots of what we are, of who we are.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Exactly.
You know, when I first thefirst book, where Every Breath
Is a Prayer, was filled withportraits and I did hundreds of
portraits Since I was followingthe holy men I decided that I
was going to start shooting therarest portraits of these
ascetics.
So for years I shot portraitsof the holy men and I think the
(15:33):
most amazing place that I didthat was in Varanasi, also known
as Benares, and that's theholiest city in all of India.
That is where the Ganges Rivercomes down from the Himalaya and
goes across India and Benaresis the oldest continuously
inhabited city in the world.
(15:53):
Now, if you Google, sometimesthey say Damascus is the oldest
city in the world, but generallyBenares is considered the
oldest city in the world.
And what drew me there?
First of all, it was the cityof Shiva.
All the holy men must come toVaranasi, to the city of light,
(16:15):
to that city.
So it's the oldest continuouslyinhabited city in the world.
It's the city of Shiva.
But then also I was astoundedit's the oldest crematorium in
the world.
The goal of most Hindus in Indiais to be burned on the Ganges
in Benares.
So I knew that I wanted tophotograph the crematoriums and
(16:40):
how they burn the bodies on theGanges River.
Well, when I got there I foundout that it's illegal to
photograph the cremations.
And I was there for a month andI was trying to figure out.
And even National Geographic,when they did a story on Benares
, they snuck the photographsillegally.
They went at night and took aboat out on the Ganges and then
(17:03):
shot back to the burningcremation fires.
I decided, no, that's not whatI want.
I want to do intimate closeupsof the sadhus who are
officiating at the crematoriumand who are burning the bodies.
And I happened to be walkingthrough there without my camera
and I had a little guide, ayoung boy 12 years old, that I
(17:25):
paid to take me around, buy meoranges etc.
And he brought me to this guyand the guy said to him why
don't you come back, have teawith me?
Don't bring your camera, I wantto talk to you.
So Martha said don't go,they're going to rip you off.
This is a trap or whatever.
I go back and the guy explainsto me that his father and his
(17:47):
family owned the Burning Gutsand that he was in control of
the burning guts.
Well, I had a blad of the bookthat I was working on, where
Every Breath Is a Prayer.
The book hadn't come out yet,but I had pictures from it,
where I had taken pictures ofall the holy men.
(18:08):
I showed it to him and he saidokay, I see that this is going
to be an incredibly importantbook and that you're delving
into the importance of Shivaworship and you're delving into
the importance of Benares.
And I'll tell you what.
You can come up into my roomabove the crematorium and I'll
(18:31):
let you take pictures of theburning bodies.
And I said yes, but I've heard,when the police see tourists
trying to do this, they come upto you and then they extort huge
money from you.
Then he explained to me no, thepolice are mine, they will not
bother you because you're withme and this is my property and
my family's property.
And in when Every Breath is aPrayer is not only the picture,
(18:54):
one picture where 12 bodies arebeing burned at once and of
course, what happens is theybring the body down to the river
and first it is dipped into theholy Ganges to purify it and
sanctify it.
Then the body is put on a pileof wood and the fire is started
and the body is burned.
(19:15):
If you're wealthy enough, youcan afford sandalwood and the
bodies are burned on thisfragrant sandalwood, but the
average Indian is just born onregular firewood.
Once the body is burned,special holy men who are allowed
to touch the defiled deadbodies then take the ashes, and
(19:37):
the ashes are then pushed intothe Ganges.
And I was able to photographall the most secret and
unphotographed traditions,traditions that have been going
on for 10 millennium, that noother photographer had actually
done.
And so, throughout my career, Ifeel that I've been blessed,
(19:57):
that because my aim was so pure,because I was not trying to
make money with it, I wasn'ttrying to do anything other than
show the beauty of theseancient traditions and the
importance of these ancienttraditions that I was given
access, over and over again, tothings that most people had
never even seen, let alonephotograph.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Did you feel you were trespassing a little bit there?
Speaker 1 (20:23):
at all.
No, I never felt that way.
You never felt that way.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
I was only 19 years old when I first went to India,
never felt that way.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
I was only 19 years old when I first went to India,
so I was kind of an old Indiahand.
I had been there so many timesand I had such great respect for
the Shiva worshipers, theascetics, the temples and I
didn't feel I was trespassing.
I would always think back tothe Amarnath cave, sadhu, who
(20:47):
said you're here for darshanHoly sight, and not only that,
you were brought here.
So even though I don't reallybelieve in fate, when I look
back I have to think that mycareer has been just magical and
I seem to have made the rightchoices all along.
(21:08):
Are these photographs in thisbook yes, all of them.
And that's the first book whenEvery Breath is a Prayer, and
then the subtitle is APhotographic Pilgrimage into the
Spiritual Heart of Asia,Essentially everywhere that
Buddhist and Hindu, the twogreat sacred meditative
religions, are worshipped, andof course those are the
(21:31):
religions that came from theHimalaya and it's essentially
the worship of the highestmountains in the world and the
sacred rivers that come downfrom the Himalaya.
Then even the Buddha book alsohas incredible images of
Buddhist art and Buddhisttemples and temple iconography.
So all of the books kind ofexplain this, but primarily
(21:54):
these are fine art books.
I'm trying to show theseobjects, these ancient
traditions, in the mostbeautiful way that I could.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
And these are available for sale, right?
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yes, yes, where Every Breath is a Prayer is on Amazon
and it's selling because it'sout of print.
I mean it's not expensive atall.
Originally it was like a $60book.
I see copies of it now for $15.
Same with Buddha.
So, yes, these books are allavailable.
Just type the name into Amazonor just type my name, as long as
(22:27):
you spell it J-O-N, because I'ma Jonathan, so it's John Ortner
and all the books will come up.
And the new book that we justdid, which is this black and
white book that is Visions ofParadise, american Wilderness,
and that for 15 years I've beenshooting the American Wilderness
.
So it's pretty much the Westthat you know Bryce Canyon, zion
(22:53):
Canyon, yosemite, yellowstonebut then the West that you don't
know the Vermilion CliffsWilderness, the Grand Staircase
and the, like I said, the Hopiand the Dina sacred Navajo lands
.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So are you connecting the spirit you're feeling in
the American continent with thespirit you're feeling in the
Eastern continent?
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Very much so, because many of the places that I
photographed were on Hopi andDina land, even Monument Valley,
where Hollywood shot so manymovies.
Don't forget, in MonumentValley you're only allowed
Westerners, white people.
You're on the reservation anddon't forget, they own the
(23:37):
reservation, so you areessentially a white trespasser.
So in order even to go toMonument Valley, first you have
to pay an entrance fee.
Then you are only allowed to goon the 17-mile road that is
open to white people.
Now, as soon as you step out ofyour car, if you start walking
(24:00):
across the deserts in MonumentValley, that is against the law.
You are now trespassing.
So you have to have either aHopi guide or a Navajo guide
with you once you go into thewilderness of Monument Valley.
And another quick, funny storyso I go to Monument Valley for
(24:20):
canyon wilderness.
I've got this contract and I'mdoing this huge book on the
Colorado Plateau, the canyons,deserts and slot canyons of the
Colorado Plateau.
So I go to Monument Valley, Ihire a guy to come and pick me
up at four in the morning sothat I can get to these prime
places before sunrise.
(24:41):
And don't forget, I'm using aview camera, the way Ansel Adams
did.
So I have to assemble my cameraand I have to put sheet film
and a 120 roll film.
So I have to do all of this inthe dark.
So I hire a guide and he showsup, and he shows up late.
I miss the sunrise.
(25:02):
I smell alcohol on his breath.
I'm very disappointed.
I pay him the $300 anywaybecause I felt so guilty and so
bad.
So then two days go by.
I said I got to get a differentguy.
I hire another guy who wasgoing to take me up to Hunts
Mesa, a very remote part ofMonument Valley.
Well, he shows up 3 o'clock.
(25:25):
We get in his car.
We get halfway to Hunts Mesa,his car breaks down.
And same thing, I pay him $300,I feel bad, he needs to fix his
car.
So now I've been there fivedays, I haven't gotten anything
unusual, nothing.
I'm staying at a Marriott hotelor something, and I see the
(25:46):
manager and I tell him that I'ma pro photographer, I'm working
on a book, and I say I've hiredtwo guys, I spent $600, I
haven't gotten a single goodpicture yet.
He says well, that's becauseyou don't have the right guy.
I said, oh really, who's theright guy?
He said Harold Simpson.
I said oh really, who's theright guy?
He said Harold Simpson.
I said well, that doesn'treally sound like a Navajo name.
(26:08):
He said, au contraire, he's thegreat grandson of Gray Whiskers
, a famous Dine chief.
So I call up Harold Simpson andHarold says to me well, you
know, I've worked on Hollywoodmovies.
I know all the locations.
I have a new truck.
Why don't you meet me at the7-Eleven?
I'll go over your shoot listand then we'll arrange to shoot.
(26:31):
So I said OK, great, how am Igoing to recognize you?
He said oh, you won't have anytrouble recognizing me.
I'm 6'3", I weigh about 300pounds and I'm an albino.
I weigh about 300 pounds andI'm an albino.
I said you're an albino Navajo.
He said yes, I go to the7-Eleven.
(26:56):
There is a mountain of a manwith Johnny Winter white hair
down to his shoulders.
That was Harold Simpson, thegreat grandson of Gray Whiskers.
Harold started taking me around,day after day.
He took me to all the sacredplaces of the Dina, and the
first day he took me to MysteryValley, and on and on and on.
And I'll never forget.
I asked Harold.
(27:16):
I said well, I've seen thesephotographs where the dunes are
orange.
There's a place in MonumentValley with bright orange dunes.
He said yeah, I know where thatis, I'll take you there.
So another day he shows up atthree o'clock with his new truck
.
We go, we're driving for anhour.
He pulls over on the side ofthe road and he and this is
again in the dark, okay, and wayoff in the distance.
(27:40):
He gets out of the truck.
He says do you see that rise?
About two miles away, that way,way over there.
I said yeah.
He says start walking.
That's where you're going.
I said really.
He said get going or you'regoing to miss sunrise.
So I leave Harold at the truckand I start walking in the dark.
I'm walking, and walking, andwalking.
I get to the base of this giantsand dune.
(28:02):
I'm wearing a 40-pound packwith film tripods and large
format cameras.
I go up the dune, I make it tothe top of the dune, the sun
rises, the dunes are orange foras far as the eye can see and I
get this incredible shoot Aftera couple of hours of shooting.
(28:25):
And of course it was the springand all the great pictures of
the dunes of Monument Valley arein the spring.
The wind makes ripples andpatterns in the fine sand, and
this is not regular sand.
This is sand that is almostlike talcum powder.
It is so soft and so even veryhard to walk through and
(28:48):
absolutely stunningly beautiful.
So I climb this giant dune, Iget my shots with the orange
dunes, with the wind patternsall over them, and I start
walking back.
The sun is now coming up and Ismell the sage.
The sage is heating up from thesun and it's like perfume.
And as I'm coming back from thewind, I hear these notes
(29:13):
floating.
And I'm walking and I'm going.
What Is that?
The wind?
Or is that some kind of musicthat I'm hearing?
As I'm walking, I'm hearingwhat is kind of like a flute
sound.
I keep walking off in thedistance.
Three quarters of a mile away,I see a giant boulder.
There is Harold with his whitehair sitting on the boulder
(29:37):
playing the Navajo flute.
And at that moment, the smellof the sage, the sound of the
Navajo flute and miles ofcolored sand dunes.
And I realized this is thesacred land of the Native
Americans.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
This has been Creativity to Gigi, and we have
(30:27):
been listening to an amazingstory from John Ortner
photographer, author, traveler,pilgrim, who, with his wife,
martha McGuire, has traveled theworld in search of sacred
places, photographing andwriting about them in a series
of amazing books that I highlyrecommend Just beautiful books,
and if you go to OrtnerPhotocomyou can kind of follow the path
to where you can buy thesethings.
Support John and his work.
This is Chris McHale.
Thank you so much for listening.
You get a chance to subscribeto this podcast.
(30:47):
Leave a comment on this podcast,visit studioggio and subscribe
to our newsletter so we can keepin touch with you, maybe even
join us.
I mean, membership is free.
We're building all sorts ofreally interesting creative
projects.
We're following our songlinesthrough the digital world and
(31:09):
getting to someplace reallyinteresting.
This has been Creativity toGigi, and thank you so much for
listening.
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