April 25, 2025 • 20 mins
What pulls someone towards art? It's rarely a straight line. It begins with a flicker, a strange obsession, a moment that seizes you and doesn't let go.
Photographer John Ortner's creative journey began with a casual suggestion from a hippie on a houseboat in Kashmir: "There's this cave not too far from here where holy men go." Without preparation, Ortner and friends trekked into the Himalaya, surrounded by thousands of sadhus—wandering mystics who've spent lifetimes seeking truth. Their question to him was profound: "Do you know why you're here?" When he admitted his ignorance, they told him he'd come for "Darshan"—holy sight
For anyone feeling the pull of creativity, Ortner's story reminds us that the most potent work emerges not from chasing recognition but from following beauty with an open heart. What's calling you to see with new eyes today?
Thanks for listening.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris (00:02):
What pulls someone towards art?
It's rarely a straight line.
It begins with a flicker, astrange obsession, a moment that
seizes you, sometimes quietly,doesn't let go.
For some it's a song, could bea poem, a photographer's frame,
(00:29):
a story.
For others, it's a voice thatsays Go.
And so the artist walks,without knowing why.
Only that there is something tofind.
Maybe it's not about findinganything, maybe it's about
(00:51):
learning to see differently.
Darshan, holy sight.
That's where this story begins,in the misty lakes of Kashmir,
when someone says, casually,there's a cave, the rest?
The rest is the call answeringitself.
Jon (01:19):
What propels you to be an artist, and for me, that has to
do with passion and falling inlove with something, and I don't
think that any art is producedwithout this passion and the
passion for making the art, andwhat does it give you?
So me and my friends, right outof high school, we go to India.
Chris (01:44):
What happens when you show up with no agenda, no
camera, no idea, no plan?
That's when the doors open.
These wandering mystics sawsomething in John Ortner Not
status, not skill, but sincerity.
(02:04):
You didn't come here byaccident, they said.
And isn't that how creativityworks?
You follow a path blindly andsuddenly it speaks back.
A voice, a look, a truth, notfrom a textbook, but from the
mountain, from the fire, frompeople who lived the answers you
(02:29):
didn't yet know how to ask.
Jon (02:32):
There was a hippie who came to our houseboat on the lakes
of Kashmir and he said you know,there's this cave not too far
from here and all the holy mengo up to the cave and you should
go and check out this cave.
So, without knowing anything,we hired a porter and we took a
(02:53):
trek for a week up into theHimalaya.
We trekked and we made it tothis cave and in the cave were
thousands of the Shiva holy men.
Now, when I, of course, startedstudying this and became more
versed in this, I found out thatthere are five million of these
sadhus, and the sadhus are theascetics and they are the ones
(03:18):
that invented yoga, meditation,and there's five million of them
wandering on pilgrimage inIndia and were surrounded by all
these holy men, many of whospoke English, and for the first
time, they told me about thepilgrimages and what was the
purpose of going on pilgrimage.
(03:38):
And the sadhus said to me doyou know why you're here?
And I'd say, no, we just walkedup here.
I know nothing.
To me, do you know why you'rehere?
And I'd say, no, we just walkedup here, I know nothing.
Art doesn't always come fromcomfort.
Chris (03:49):
Sometimes it's forged on the edge, where cold meets heat,
where the air thins and thesilence grows thick with
presence.
To walk 500 miles in theHimalaya isn't just physical.
(04:09):
It's a stripping away.
Each mile, another layer fallsoff, until what's left is just
wonder.
A gorge deeper than the GrandCanyon, a river louder than
thought.
The artist goes where theordinary ends, because that's
(04:35):
where the images live, Not forspectacle but for understanding
they said you are here forDarshan.
Jon (04:46):
You were brought here for a purpose.
I said what is Darshan?
He said Darshan is sight, notjust regular sight, holy sight.
They turned to me and said youdidn't come here by accident,
you came here because you werebrought here for a reason.
Everyone knows that the highestmountain on earth is Everest
(05:07):
and of course that's on theborder of Nepal and Tibet.
But few people know where thedeepest gorge in the world is,
and in central Nepal, chris, isa gorge that is three and a half
times as deep as the GrandCanyon.
It's called the Kali Gorge, andMartha and I did an expedition
(05:27):
in the Kali Gorge 65 days in atent.
We walked over 500 miles.
So we started doing theseincredible expeditions through
the Himalaya, not only to thehighest mountains but to the
deepest gorges and the threedeepest gorges in the world the
Kali, the Marziandi and the BuriGandaki.
Those three gorges aremind-blowing because in the
(05:51):
bottoms of the gorges they'retropical and the tops of the
gorges go into Tibet, where itsnows even in July and August.
Chris (06:04):
Few places guard their spirit, like Bhutan no
billboards, no killing, no rush.
A kingdom that has resisted thecrush of modernity by holding
tight to the soul.
Modernity by holding tight tothe soul.
(06:31):
In this last Buddhist kingdom,the camera becomes a passport
only if your heart is in theright place.
And when it is, animals willwalk up to you, snow leopards
will sing in the night.
It's as if the earth itselfgives you permission to see.
It's as if the earth itselfgives you permission to see.
What the artist captures hereisn't just beauty.
(06:52):
It's the sacred still alive.
Jon (06:54):
So I went to Bhutan and again, most people don't even
know where Bhutan is or haveever heard of it.
It's the last Buddhist kingdomon earth.
It is in between China andIndia and the king owns
everything, including theairlines, and in Bhutan, because
it's a strict Buddhist society,there is no killing whatsoever.
(07:17):
So fishing is illegal, huntingis illegal, and Martha and I
went to Bhutan, and you have tohave permission from the
Bhutanese government to enterthe country.
At first they only left a fewhundred people a year in.
Now it's up to about 7,000 ayear that they allow in.
When Martha and I went in there, they only allowed about 5,000
(07:39):
people a year, and we trekkedacross Bhutan a 30-day hike in
which we walked about 300 miles,and because there's been no
hunting, we had herds of bluesheep that had never been hunted
and literally walked to within10 feet of us, and at night in
our tent we heard snow leopardsup into the mountains echoing
(08:02):
through the high peak, and Inever really wanted to
photograph in America until Ihappened to open a magazine and
in that magazine I saw picturesof a place that looked like Mars
.
Chris (08:17):
Sometimes the path leads home not to comfort but to
rediscovery.
A photograph in a magazine, analien landscape, and suddenly
the American West can look likeMars After Asia.
The desert whispers in a newdialect, still sacred, still
(08:41):
strange, and the artist beginsagain.
The pilgrimage doesn't end, itshifts terrain because the holy
is everywhere, if you're payingattention.
Jon (08:56):
Now I know that that is the Grand Staircase-Escalante
National Monument.
So for the first time I stoppedgoing to Asia and I started
going to the American wilderness.
So my books are all acombination of fine art,
photography and scholarship,because I try to explain well.
Why is this important, how didthis come to be, why is it
(09:20):
worthy of taking pictures of itand why should we be interested
either in the Asian cultures orin the deserts and canyons of
the American West?
It's the oldest crematorium inthe world.
The goal of most Hindus in Indiais to be burned on the Ganges
in Benares.
So I knew that I wanted tophotograph the crematoriums and
(09:45):
how they burn the bodies on theGanges River.
Well, when I got there, I foundout that it's illegal to
photograph the cremations and Iwas there for a month and I was
trying to figure out.
And even National Geographicwhen they did a story on Benares
, they snuck the photographsillegally.
They went at night and took aboat out on the Ganges and then
(10:08):
shot back to the burningcremation fires.
I decided, no, that's not whatI want.
I want to do intimate close-upsof the sadhus who are
officiating at the crematoriumand who are burning the bodies
and I happen to be walkingthrough there without my camera.
Chris (10:27):
Some stories are not meant to be stolen.
They have to be given.
In Benares, by the fires of theGanges, the camera must wait,
and the man who owns the burningguts doesn't care about
prestige.
He looks at the artist's workand he sees, sees the reverence,
(10:49):
the intention, the longing tounderstand, not exploit.
So the door opens, the lenslifts and the sacred ritual
becomes visible, not to theworld, but to you, the witness,
(11:24):
because trust is the final keyand humility is what it unlocks.
Jon (11:30):
And I had a little guide, a young boy, 12 years old, that I
paid to take me around, buy meoranges, etc.
And he brought me to this guy.
And the guy said to him whydon't you come back have tea
with me?
Don't bring your camera, I wantto talk to you.
So Martha said don't go,they're going to rip you off.
This is a trap, or whatever.
(11:51):
I go back and the guy explainsto me that his father and his
family owned the burning gutsand that he was in control of
the burning guts.
Well, I had a blad of the bookthat I was working on, where
Every Breath is a Prayer.
The book hadn't come out yetbut I had pictures from it where
(12:15):
I had taken pictures of all theholy men.
I showed it to him and he saidokay, I see that this is going
to be an incredibly importantbook and that you're delving
into the importance of Shivaworship and you're delving into
the importance of Benares.
And I'll tell you what.
You can come up into my roomabove the crematorium and I'll
(12:39):
let you take pictures of theburning bodies.
They bring the body down to theriver and first it is dipped
into the holy ganges to purifyit and sanctify it.
Then the body is put on a pileof wood and the fire is started.
And the body is put on a pileof wood and the fire is started
and the body is burned.
If you're wealthy enough, youcan afford sandalwood and the
(13:02):
bodies are burned on thisfragrant sandalwood.
Once the body is burned,special holy men who are allowed
to touch the defiled deadbodies then take the ashes, and
the ashes are then pushed intothe Ganges.
Throughout my career, I feelthat I've been blessed, that
because my aim was so pure,because I was not trying to make
(13:27):
money with it, I wasn't tryingto do anything other than show
the beauty of these ancienttraditions and the importance of
these ancient traditions that Iwas given access, over and over
again, to things that mostpeople had never even seen.
So, even though I don't reallybelieve in fate, when I look
(13:49):
back I have to think that mycareer has been just magical and
I seem to have made the rightchoices all along.
Chris (14:00):
Looking back it doesn't feel like chance.
A camera, a cave, a whisper, afire.
The road unfolds one step at atime and maybe that's the truest
creativity to follow beautywithout demanding outcome, to
(14:21):
let the work be bigger than theartist and to know somehow that
you were never walking alone.
Jon (14:31):
So I go to Monument Valley for Canyon wilderness.
I've got this contract and I'mdoing this huge book on the
Colorado Plateau, the canyons,deserts and slot canyons of the
Colorado Plateau.
So I go to Monument Valley, Ihire a guy to come and pick me
up at four in the morning sothat I can get to these prime
(14:52):
places before sunrise.
And don't forget, I'm using aview camera, the way Ansel Adams
did.
So I have to assemble my cameraand I have to put sheet film
and a 120 roll film.
So I have to do all of this inthe dark.
So I hire a guide and he showsup, and he shows up late.
(15:13):
I miss the sunrise.
I smell alcohol on his breath.
I'm very disappointed.
I pay him the $300 anywaybecause I felt so guilty and so
bad.
So then two days go by, I saidI got to get a different guy.
I hire another guy who wasgoing to take me up to Hunts
Mesa, a very remote part ofMonument Valley.
(15:35):
Well, he shows up three o'clock.
We get in his car.
We get halfway to Hunts Mesa,his car breaks down and, same
thing, I pay him $300.
I feel bad.
He needs to fix his car.
So now I've been there fivedays I haven't gotten anything
unusual, nothing.
I'm staying at a Marriott hotelor something and I see the
(15:58):
manager and I tell him that I'ma pro photographer, I'm working
on a book, and I say I've hiredtwo guys, I spent $600.
I haven't gotten a single goodpicture yet.
He says well, that's becauseyou don't have the right guy.
I said oh really, who's theright guy?
He said Harold Simpson.
I said well, that doesn'treally sound like a Navajo name.
(16:20):
He said, au contraire, he's thegreat grandson of Gray Whiskers
, a famous Dine chief.
So I call up Harold Simpson andHarold says to me well, you
know, I've worked on Hollywoodmovies, I know all the locations
, I have a new truck.
Why don't you meet me at the7-Eleven?
I'll go over your shoot listand then we'll arrange to shoot.
(16:44):
So I said OK, great, how am Igoing to recognize you?
He said oh, you won't have anytrouble recognizing me.
I'm 6'3", I weigh about 300pounds and I'm an albino.
I said you're an albino Navajo.
He said yes, I go to the7-Eleven.
There is a mountain of a manwith Johnny Winter white hair
(17:07):
down to his shoulders.
That was Harold Simpson, thegreat grandson of Gray Whiskers.
Harold started taking me aroundday after day.
He took me to all the sacredplaces of the Dina and the first
day he took me to MysteryValley and on and on and on.
And I'll never forget.
(17:27):
I asked Harold.
I said well, I've seen thesephotographs where the dunes are
orange.
There's a place in MonumentValley with bright orange dunes.
He said yeah, I know where thatis, I'll take you there.
So another day he shows up atthree o'clock with his new truck
.
We go, we're driving for anhour.
He pulls over on the side ofthe road and he and this is
(17:49):
again in the dark, okay, and wayoff in the distance.
He gets out of the truck.
He says do you see that rise?
About two miles away, that way,way over there.
I said yeah.
He says start walking.
That's where you're going.
I said really.
He said get going or you'regoing to miss sunrise.
So I leave Harold at the truckand I start walking in the dark.
(18:10):
I'm walking, and walking, andwalking.
I get to the base of this giantsand dune.
I'm wearing a 40 pound packwith film tripods and large
format cameras.
I go up the dune, I make it tothe top of the dune.
The sun rises, the dunes areorange for as far as the eye can
(18:31):
see and I get this incredibleshoot After a couple of hours of
shooting.
And of course, it was thespring, and all the great
pictures of the dunes ofMonument Valley are in the
spring.
The wind makes ripples andpatterns in the fine sand, and
this is not regular sand.
(18:51):
This is sand that is almostlike talcum powder.
It is so soft and so even veryhard to walk through and
absolutely stunningly beautiful.
So I climb this giant dune, Iget my shots with the orange
dunes, with the wind patternsall over them, and I start
walking back.
(19:11):
The sun is now coming up and Ismell the sage.
The sage is heating up from thesun and it's like perfume.
And as I'm coming back on thewind, I hear these notes and I'm
walking and I'm going.
What Is that?
The wind, or is that some kindof music that I'm hearing?
(19:32):
As I'm walking, I'm hearing.
Well, it's kind of like a flutesound.
I keep walking off in thedistance, three quarters of a
mile away, I see a giant boulder.
There is Harold with his whitehair sitting on the boulder
playing the Navajo flute.
And at that moment, the smellof the sage, the sound of the
(19:57):
Navajo flute and miles ofcolored sand dunes, and I
realized this is the sacred landof the Native Americans.
This is the sacred land of theNative.
Chris (20:08):
Americans.
This has been Creativity toGigi, with Chris McHale
featuring photographer and soulexplorer John Ordner.
John's breathtaking books areavailable on Amazon and wherever
fine books are sold.
Thank you for listening andstay curious.
(20:29):
The mystery of creativitycontinues.
What pulls someone towards art?
It's rarely a straight line.
It begins with a flicker, astrange obsession, a moment that
seizes you, sometimes quietly,doesn't let go.
For some it's a song, could bea poem, a photographer's frame,
(00:29):
a story.
For others, it's a voice thatsays Go.
And so the artist walks,without knowing why.
Only that there is something tofind.
Maybe it's not about findinganything, maybe it's about
(00:51):
learning to see differently.
Darshan, holy sight.
That's where this story begins,in the misty lakes of Kashmir,
when someone says, casually,there's a cave, the rest?
The rest is the call answeringitself.
Jon (01:19):
What propels you to be an artist, and for me, that has to
do with passion and falling inlove with something, and I don't
think that any art is producedwithout this passion and the
passion for making the art, andwhat does it give you?
So me and my friends, right outof high school, we go to India.
Chris (01:44):
What happens when you show up with no agenda, no
camera, no idea, no plan?
That's when the doors open.
These wandering mystics sawsomething in John Ortner Not
status, not skill, but sincerity.
(02:04):
You didn't come here byaccident, they said.
And isn't that how creativityworks?
You follow a path blindly andsuddenly it speaks back.
A voice, a look, a truth, notfrom a textbook, but from the
mountain, from the fire, frompeople who lived the answers you
(02:29):
didn't yet know how to ask.
Jon (02:32):
There was a hippie who came to our houseboat on the lakes
of Kashmir and he said you know,there's this cave not too far
from here and all the holy mengo up to the cave and you should
go and check out this cave.
So, without knowing anything,we hired a porter and we took a
(02:53):
trek for a week up into theHimalaya.
We trekked and we made it tothis cave and in the cave were
thousands of the Shiva holy men.
Now, when I, of course, startedstudying this and became more
versed in this, I found out thatthere are five million of these
sadhus, and the sadhus are theascetics and they are the ones
(03:18):
that invented yoga, meditation,and there's five million of them
wandering on pilgrimage inIndia and were surrounded by all
these holy men, many of whospoke English, and for the first
time, they told me about thepilgrimages and what was the
purpose of going on pilgrimage.
(03:38):
And the sadhus said to me doyou know why you're here?
And I'd say, no, we just walkedup here.
I know nothing.
To me, do you know why you'rehere?
And I'd say, no, we just walkedup here, I know nothing.
Art doesn't always come fromcomfort.
Chris (03:49):
Sometimes it's forged on the edge, where cold meets heat,
where the air thins and thesilence grows thick with
presence.
To walk 500 miles in theHimalaya isn't just physical.
(04:09):
It's a stripping away.
Each mile, another layer fallsoff, until what's left is just
wonder.
A gorge deeper than the GrandCanyon, a river louder than
thought.
The artist goes where theordinary ends, because that's
(04:35):
where the images live, Not forspectacle but for understanding
they said you are here forDarshan.
Jon (04:46):
You were brought here for a purpose.
I said what is Darshan?
He said Darshan is sight, notjust regular sight, holy sight.
They turned to me and said youdidn't come here by accident,
you came here because you werebrought here for a reason.
Everyone knows that the highestmountain on earth is Everest
(05:07):
and of course that's on theborder of Nepal and Tibet.
But few people know where thedeepest gorge in the world is,
and in central Nepal, chris, isa gorge that is three and a half
times as deep as the GrandCanyon.
It's called the Kali Gorge, andMartha and I did an expedition
(05:27):
in the Kali Gorge 65 days in atent.
We walked over 500 miles.
So we started doing theseincredible expeditions through
the Himalaya, not only to thehighest mountains but to the
deepest gorges and the threedeepest gorges in the world the
Kali, the Marziandi and the BuriGandaki.
Those three gorges aremind-blowing because in the
(05:51):
bottoms of the gorges they'retropical and the tops of the
gorges go into Tibet, where itsnows even in July and August.
Chris (06:04):
Few places guard their spirit, like Bhutan no
billboards, no killing, no rush.
A kingdom that has resisted thecrush of modernity by holding
tight to the soul.
Modernity by holding tight tothe soul.
(06:31):
In this last Buddhist kingdom,the camera becomes a passport
only if your heart is in theright place.
And when it is, animals willwalk up to you, snow leopards
will sing in the night.
It's as if the earth itselfgives you permission to see.
It's as if the earth itselfgives you permission to see.
What the artist captures hereisn't just beauty.
(06:52):
It's the sacred still alive.
Jon (06:54):
So I went to Bhutan and again, most people don't even
know where Bhutan is or haveever heard of it.
It's the last Buddhist kingdomon earth.
It is in between China andIndia and the king owns
everything, including theairlines, and in Bhutan, because
it's a strict Buddhist society,there is no killing whatsoever.
(07:17):
So fishing is illegal, huntingis illegal, and Martha and I
went to Bhutan, and you have tohave permission from the
Bhutanese government to enterthe country.
At first they only left a fewhundred people a year in.
Now it's up to about 7,000 ayear that they allow in.
When Martha and I went in there, they only allowed about 5,000
(07:39):
people a year, and we trekkedacross Bhutan a 30-day hike in
which we walked about 300 miles,and because there's been no
hunting, we had herds of bluesheep that had never been hunted
and literally walked to within10 feet of us, and at night in
our tent we heard snow leopardsup into the mountains echoing
(08:02):
through the high peak, and Inever really wanted to
photograph in America until Ihappened to open a magazine and
in that magazine I saw picturesof a place that looked like Mars
.
Chris (08:17):
Sometimes the path leads home not to comfort but to
rediscovery.
A photograph in a magazine, analien landscape, and suddenly
the American West can look likeMars After Asia.
The desert whispers in a newdialect, still sacred, still
(08:41):
strange, and the artist beginsagain.
The pilgrimage doesn't end, itshifts terrain because the holy
is everywhere, if you're payingattention.
Jon (08:56):
Now I know that that is the Grand Staircase-Escalante
National Monument.
So for the first time I stoppedgoing to Asia and I started
going to the American wilderness.
So my books are all acombination of fine art,
photography and scholarship,because I try to explain well.
Why is this important, how didthis come to be, why is it
(09:20):
worthy of taking pictures of itand why should we be interested
either in the Asian cultures orin the deserts and canyons of
the American West?
It's the oldest crematorium inthe world.
The goal of most Hindus in Indiais to be burned on the Ganges
in Benares.
So I knew that I wanted tophotograph the crematoriums and
(09:45):
how they burn the bodies on theGanges River.
Well, when I got there, I foundout that it's illegal to
photograph the cremations and Iwas there for a month and I was
trying to figure out.
And even National Geographicwhen they did a story on Benares
, they snuck the photographsillegally.
They went at night and took aboat out on the Ganges and then
(10:08):
shot back to the burningcremation fires.
I decided, no, that's not whatI want.
I want to do intimate close-upsof the sadhus who are
officiating at the crematoriumand who are burning the bodies
and I happen to be walkingthrough there without my camera.
Chris (10:27):
Some stories are not meant to be stolen.
They have to be given.
In Benares, by the fires of theGanges, the camera must wait,
and the man who owns the burningguts doesn't care about
prestige.
He looks at the artist's workand he sees, sees the reverence,
(10:49):
the intention, the longing tounderstand, not exploit.
So the door opens, the lenslifts and the sacred ritual
becomes visible, not to theworld, but to you, the witness,
(11:24):
because trust is the final keyand humility is what it unlocks.
Jon (11:30):
And I had a little guide, a young boy, 12 years old, that I
paid to take me around, buy meoranges, etc.
And he brought me to this guy.
And the guy said to him whydon't you come back have tea
with me?
Don't bring your camera, I wantto talk to you.
So Martha said don't go,they're going to rip you off.
This is a trap, or whatever.
(11:51):
I go back and the guy explainsto me that his father and his
family owned the burning gutsand that he was in control of
the burning guts.
Well, I had a blad of the bookthat I was working on, where
Every Breath is a Prayer.
The book hadn't come out yetbut I had pictures from it where
(12:15):
I had taken pictures of all theholy men.
I showed it to him and he saidokay, I see that this is going
to be an incredibly importantbook and that you're delving
into the importance of Shivaworship and you're delving into
the importance of Benares.
And I'll tell you what.
You can come up into my roomabove the crematorium and I'll
(12:39):
let you take pictures of theburning bodies.
They bring the body down to theriver and first it is dipped
into the holy ganges to purifyit and sanctify it.
Then the body is put on a pileof wood and the fire is started.
And the body is put on a pileof wood and the fire is started
and the body is burned.
If you're wealthy enough, youcan afford sandalwood and the
(13:02):
bodies are burned on thisfragrant sandalwood.
Once the body is burned,special holy men who are allowed
to touch the defiled deadbodies then take the ashes, and
the ashes are then pushed intothe Ganges.
Throughout my career, I feelthat I've been blessed, that
because my aim was so pure,because I was not trying to make
(13:27):
money with it, I wasn't tryingto do anything other than show
the beauty of these ancienttraditions and the importance of
these ancient traditions that Iwas given access, over and over
again, to things that mostpeople had never even seen.
So, even though I don't reallybelieve in fate, when I look
(13:49):
back I have to think that mycareer has been just magical and
I seem to have made the rightchoices all along.
Chris (14:00):
Looking back it doesn't feel like chance.
A camera, a cave, a whisper, afire.
The road unfolds one step at atime and maybe that's the truest
creativity to follow beautywithout demanding outcome, to
(14:21):
let the work be bigger than theartist and to know somehow that
you were never walking alone.
Jon (14:31):
So I go to Monument Valley for Canyon wilderness.
I've got this contract and I'mdoing this huge book on the
Colorado Plateau, the canyons,deserts and slot canyons of the
Colorado Plateau.
So I go to Monument Valley, Ihire a guy to come and pick me
up at four in the morning sothat I can get to these prime
(14:52):
places before sunrise.
And don't forget, I'm using aview camera, the way Ansel Adams
did.
So I have to assemble my cameraand I have to put sheet film
and a 120 roll film.
So I have to do all of this inthe dark.
So I hire a guide and he showsup, and he shows up late.
(15:13):
I miss the sunrise.
I smell alcohol on his breath.
I'm very disappointed.
I pay him the $300 anywaybecause I felt so guilty and so
bad.
So then two days go by, I saidI got to get a different guy.
I hire another guy who wasgoing to take me up to Hunts
Mesa, a very remote part ofMonument Valley.
(15:35):
Well, he shows up three o'clock.
We get in his car.
We get halfway to Hunts Mesa,his car breaks down and, same
thing, I pay him $300.
I feel bad.
He needs to fix his car.
So now I've been there fivedays I haven't gotten anything
unusual, nothing.
I'm staying at a Marriott hotelor something and I see the
(15:58):
manager and I tell him that I'ma pro photographer, I'm working
on a book, and I say I've hiredtwo guys, I spent $600.
I haven't gotten a single goodpicture yet.
He says well, that's becauseyou don't have the right guy.
I said oh really, who's theright guy?
He said Harold Simpson.
I said well, that doesn'treally sound like a Navajo name.
(16:20):
He said, au contraire, he's thegreat grandson of Gray Whiskers
, a famous Dine chief.
So I call up Harold Simpson andHarold says to me well, you
know, I've worked on Hollywoodmovies, I know all the locations
, I have a new truck.
Why don't you meet me at the7-Eleven?
I'll go over your shoot listand then we'll arrange to shoot.
(16:44):
So I said OK, great, how am Igoing to recognize you?
He said oh, you won't have anytrouble recognizing me.
I'm 6'3", I weigh about 300pounds and I'm an albino.
I said you're an albino Navajo.
He said yes, I go to the7-Eleven.
There is a mountain of a manwith Johnny Winter white hair
(17:07):
down to his shoulders.
That was Harold Simpson, thegreat grandson of Gray Whiskers.
Harold started taking me aroundday after day.
He took me to all the sacredplaces of the Dina and the first
day he took me to MysteryValley and on and on and on.
And I'll never forget.
(17:27):
I asked Harold.
I said well, I've seen thesephotographs where the dunes are
orange.
There's a place in MonumentValley with bright orange dunes.
He said yeah, I know where thatis, I'll take you there.
So another day he shows up atthree o'clock with his new truck
.
We go, we're driving for anhour.
He pulls over on the side ofthe road and he and this is
(17:49):
again in the dark, okay, and wayoff in the distance.
He gets out of the truck.
He says do you see that rise?
About two miles away, that way,way over there.
I said yeah.
He says start walking.
That's where you're going.
I said really.
He said get going or you'regoing to miss sunrise.
So I leave Harold at the truckand I start walking in the dark.
(18:10):
I'm walking, and walking, andwalking.
I get to the base of this giantsand dune.
I'm wearing a 40 pound packwith film tripods and large
format cameras.
I go up the dune, I make it tothe top of the dune.
The sun rises, the dunes areorange for as far as the eye can
(18:31):
see and I get this incredibleshoot After a couple of hours of
shooting.
And of course, it was thespring, and all the great
pictures of the dunes ofMonument Valley are in the
spring.
The wind makes ripples andpatterns in the fine sand, and
this is not regular sand.
(18:51):
This is sand that is almostlike talcum powder.
It is so soft and so even veryhard to walk through and
absolutely stunningly beautiful.
So I climb this giant dune, Iget my shots with the orange
dunes, with the wind patternsall over them, and I start
walking back.
(19:11):
The sun is now coming up and Ismell the sage.
The sage is heating up from thesun and it's like perfume.
And as I'm coming back on thewind, I hear these notes and I'm
walking and I'm going.
What Is that?
The wind, or is that some kindof music that I'm hearing?
(19:32):
As I'm walking, I'm hearing.
Well, it's kind of like a flutesound.
I keep walking off in thedistance, three quarters of a
mile away, I see a giant boulder.
There is Harold with his whitehair sitting on the boulder
playing the Navajo flute.
And at that moment, the smellof the sage, the sound of the
(19:57):
Navajo flute and miles ofcolored sand dunes, and I
realized this is the sacred landof the Native Americans.
This is the sacred land of theNative.
Chris (20:08):
Americans.
This has been Creativity toGigi, with Chris McHale
featuring photographer and soulexplorer John Ordner.
John's breathtaking books areavailable on Amazon and wherever
fine books are sold.
Thank you for listening andstay curious.
(20:29):
The mystery of creativitycontinues.
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