September 4, 2023 • 40 mins
Dr Marion Piper joins me on Creativity: Uncovered to unpack what creativity means to her and ~ spoiler alert ~ it is not just about creative practice. For Marion, it is a way of thinking, an exploration and a way of “connecting the dots”.
This explains why her Ph.D is all about using creativity for post-traumatic growth.
In this episode we discuss the relationship between trauma, mental health and creativity, and how creativity is not just good for you, it can actually be healing too.
Happy listening!
xo Abi
P.S. There is a small language warning for this episode.
P.P.S. For more information about this episode and our guest, head to: www.crispcomms.co/podcast-episodes/creativity-is-how-we-connect-the-dots
Creativity: Uncovered is lovingly edited by the team at Crisp Communications.
Creativity: Uncovered is a registered Australian Trade Mark.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hello and welcome to Creativity (00:00):
Uncovered. My name is Abi Gatling and I'm on a journey
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to uncover how everyday people find inspiration, get inventive and open their imagination.
I basically want to find out how people use creativity at home, at work, at play and everything
in between. And my goal for this podcast is that by the end of it you'll be armed with
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a whole suite of tried and tested ways for you to be able to summon creativity the next
time that you need it. Joining me today on the podcast is Dr. Marion Piper. And I'm very,
very excited to speak to Marion because I actually saw her present at a design summit
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a couple of months ago and I just had to reach out. That's the great thing about this podcast
is just that I get to pick the brains of people who are inspiring and that's exactly what
I'm planning to do today. So welcome Marion.
Oh, thanks so much for having me. And that was the designer boss summit, which if people
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aren't aware of it, it's an absolute riot. I had such a good time. And kudos to you for
reaching out. I think in today's hyperconnected world it can be really intimidating to reach
out to people or preemptively think that they wouldn't want to do it. But I've also found
in my journey that the times that I reach out and want to collaborate with people, it's
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received usually pretty warmly. So I love the position where we're starting this conversation
from.
That's it. I'm trying to act on my sparks of curiosity a bit more intentionally. And
so when I was watching that and there were a bunch of other really great presenters as
well, I was like, I would like to know more about this. So I'm just going to YOLO and
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do it. So I appreciate you saying yes. I YOLO'd to your YOLO.
Yes, YOLO squared. It was good. So yeah, I'm super keen to jump into our conversation.
I have so many questions for you. And there's so many things that I want to talk to you
about. Hopefully we can get through it all. But what caught my eye in the summit a couple
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of months ago was you had the session about pushing through creative blocks and super
charging your creative process. And I'm sure you're going to share lots of great tips
throughout this conversation. But I actually would like to start with something else that
you mentioned in your presentation. And that was about your PhD in creativity and post traumatic
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growth. Because I know there has to be a story behind that that is really interesting combination.
So why don't we start there? Tell me a bit more about your PhD. How did you get there?
And how did you choose that topic? Oh, man. Talk about opening Pandora's box
from the start. I love this. Yeah. So gosh, the PhD was one of the most incredibly personal
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and growth field journeys that I've ever had the absolute honor of doing. You know, a lot
of people think that a PhD is this incredibly heady, you know, very analytical, very numbers
based experience, which for a lot of people it is. But for me, it was it was very much
a journey of catharsis. And it was kind of coincided serendipitously with a lot of other
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things that were happening in my life at the time, almost in a chicken or the egg kind of
scenario. You know, did I do the PhD because it was going to be the life raft that I could
cling to to survive the things that were happening in my personal life? Or did things happen
in my personal life that then created the need for that exploration? So and this is something
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that I'm yeah, this is something I'm really curious to investigate myself and have been
doing in some way shape or form my entire life is just trying to understand trauma, why
things happen to us and what happens to us as a result of you know, the things that we
experience. And so it was a really bizarre series of events that led to that PhD. I'd
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been living abroad, I was traveling, I just finished my masters and my high school art
teacher shout out to Lexie Lasek. She reached out to me saying that I finished my masters
and said, Hey, do you want to come and do a PhD with me? I was like, No, I've just done
a thousand years at university. I'm done. But then she said, you know, whispered that,
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you know, that magic phrase of you can do whatever you want. And that really tapped
into my one of my core values, which is freedom. So, you know, I started this is the beautiful
thing with PhD projects, particularly ones that are more creatively fueled. And mine
was 60% creative practice, 40% research. And so you start at the biggest possible widest
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point of the funnel. And just over the years, you just narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow until
you end up at this place, it sounds almost too simple to be a research project, right?
Because that's it, like wisdom is simple. Anything that's over complicated hasn't been
distilled enough. So what I was really interested in was not so much, you know, the bad things
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that happen to us after trauma, like, you know, we might experience PTSD, we might fall
apart, we might, you know, take that downward spiral as a result of what we've been through.
I was more interested with the the upwards tick, what I call this the spiral up. So
what what is that process like? What is what kick starts it? Is there is there ways to
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that we can encourage it? And that's where I really discovered the term post traumatic
growth, which comes out of positive psychology. And these two researchers in the US, Tideshia
and Calhoun, really spearheaded the journey. There's been other researchers over the last
sort of 10 to 15 years that have looked into lots of other things like people who survive
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natural disasters, significant physical injuries, like or experiences like breast cancer or
losing a limb. But psychologically speaking, so and from a creative lens, it's like, well,
okay, like, how do we how do we process? How do we deal with the stuff that happens to
us? And in my personal experience, the thing that saved me over and over and over again
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is creativity. It is the one thing that no matter what I go through, if I dip into that
process, it always helps. Like there is no negative, at least what I've found, there's
no negative consequence to experiencing the creative process, except the fact that, you
know, you might change your life, you might decide to completely upend everything, you
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might discover something new about yourself. So I went into that project, I kind of went
into that project thinking that I would be exploring that in an external way. So I was
really looking at resilience in teenagers is where I kind of started, because I was I
knew that that time of life is really significant. And there's not there at that point, there
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was a huge amount of research done. And I was in an arts education faculty, so we were
looking more through it as a from an educational lens rather than a psychological one. But
then as I sort of started to do the research, I started to see myself in the research. And
that's when I really, yeah, I really lent in and, you know, was like, okay, this is the
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time for me to really explore what I went through as a kid. Because also, from an advocacy
perspective, you know, there really wasn't a lot of arts based research that talked about
what all this stuff feels like, you know, there's so many clinical trials done or research
projects by the numbers that sort of explain, oh, you know, x percentage of people experience
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post traumatic growth or like these are the traits that people have that are more likely
to experience post traumatic growth. But there was there really wasn't a lot from a narrative
perspective or a creative perspective that actually showed you or gave you an inside
look into what this stuff feels like. And, you know, my one of the things that I love
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most about the creative process is it gives us a through line to self expression. It allows
us to take something that's inside of us that you know, it begins as a feeling or might begin
as a thought but moves as it becomes a feeling and translate that into something that someone
else might understand. And so this process that I that I've been developing and honing
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over the years is really that transmutation. How do we take our pain and turn it into something
purposeful, something beautiful, something useful to other people that isn't necessarily
didactic. So it's not like I'm saying to you, you know, this is my pain. And these are the
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exact reasons why or here's what you learn like it's not about it being educational,
but it's like that process of transmutation. Here's what it can feel like here's how we
can potentially guide ourselves through it. So as you can imagine, it was a bit of a baptism
of fire. And my project was really around I created an artist book called mother, which
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explored what my mom and I went through when I was a kid and through her alcoholism and
our broken family and you know, all those kinds of things. And so I created this artist
book that was an exploration of the post traumatic growth. So it was looking at not so much at
the trauma, but as the positive things that came out of it. And it was my really my way
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of processing and understanding who I am and where I've come from. And then alongside that,
you know, the universe works in crazy ways. This is this chicken or egg thing that I was
telling you about. My mom actually got really sick and then passed away in the second or
I think it was the second or third, probably the second year of my of my project. So gosh,
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I yeah, and it became this thing where I was living my research as I was doing it, you
know, and it became yeah, because I became my own therapist, my own life coach, my own
you know, mentor, alongside my supervisors who equally went through some pretty horrific
things during the course of my project. And so you know, it's just this it's the reminder
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that you know, life has so much beautiful raw material that we can use that we don't
understand and we can use creativity as a force to understand it so that we can learn
from it right. Yeah, wow. It's like so meta right you're doing PhD. So the most meta.
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Yeah, you're doing this PhD investigating creativity is impact on post traumatic growth
at the same time while you're doing a creative act of writing the book and then also experiencing
even more trauma that yeah, I pretty much fell apart after it was done. Oh my gosh, I
can imagine I mean most people do just through because of the sheer amount of work, let alone
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all these other hugely emotional impacting things throughout it. Well, you know, and
I think back at that time and that person that I was when I started that project was
very very very different to you know, the iteration of myself that I am now but we
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know you mentioned at the start that you were leaning in for this podcast you're leaning
into that curiosity. And that's what I was doing something was coming up for me that
was was like hey, I like demanding my attention it was like hey hey we need to look at this
we need to explore this is something valuable here. And so what I did was I created in my
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external reality the systems and structures to support that exploration. You know, and
I think if we can start to think more from an inside out perspective about our lives
and what we want to do and what we want to create. It becomes less about how do I fit
myself and my creative voice into these things that exist in the world and becomes more about
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how do I find the structures and systems and the things that already exist that are going
to support the things that I'm passionate about, which is why you know you see people
get you know, leave jobs, create toxic environments you know because they're trying to fit themselves
into something that isn't right. But we have so much more agency when it comes to our creativity
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and you'll sort of you'll sort of hear me talk about it in a way that's that might be
a little bit different because I'm really trying to separate it from the artistry from
the act of being creative. When we talk about creativity per se, my definition is that it's
an organic process of connecting the dots and you in interesting ways. So it's really
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not about what you produce but it's how you look and it's how you act in the world. Before
you even put pen to paper, you know, you dance or sing or whatever like that's very very
that's one of the byproducts of creativity but I'm bringing it a step back rather than
following down that skills and abilities and talents.
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Yes. I love that. I think that's a really interesting take on creativity. And I saw that
on your website, creativity isn't just art, it's how we connect the dots. And it really
does speak to creativity being a mindset and not just a creative act. That's just very
interesting. Like how did you how did you stumble across that as being your view of
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creativity?
Yeah, it's a good question. I think I think I've always felt this way. And it's evidence
to me. I mean, obviously, this stuff is easier to see when you look back because you can
connect the dots easier when you can actually see the dots for what they are.
Yeah.
And so, you know, it's evidence to me by the fact that I never really, well, writing has
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always been, you know, one of my biggest passions. It's not the only one. And I've always oscillated
between every possible type of creative expression that you could imagine. And I love them all
just in different degrees, right? So that for me was an indication first and foremost
that it's not really about the medium for me. It's about the process and it's about
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the experience and how that experience makes me feel. So when I was doing my PhD specifically,
I had to come up with it. I had to define it. I had to define this thing called creativity
in order to frame my research underneath it. That's part of the process, right? You've
got to put some parameters around your thinking so that it builds a stronger case for you
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throughout the course of your project. And so, you know, I was looking at different definitions
of creativity that were, you know, more process driven or potentially they were more outcome
driven or they were more spiritually driven. But then when I read the one about it being
an organic process particularly, and organic processes happen inside living things. And
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that's really a big part of the definition for me is that it's something that we do and
that is so innate to us, even on a cellular level. I mean, you could argue, you know,
we are the universe, atomically, on a very, very basic level, we're made of the same stuff
as the stars. What's the universe's, you know, MO that they've figured constantly expanding,
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it's constantly creating, that is what we are doing, we are a reflection of that, right?
So connecting it to something bigger than you as well makes it, I think takes a lot of the
pressure off, I know it does for me, so that I can just play, you know, if my job is just
constant expansion, constant creation, it actually doesn't matter what I produce. So
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as long as I honour that innate urge that's within me. And so that's why I also have a
sub-stack newsletter which is called The Creative Urge because oftentimes this stuff starts when
we like, we feel that like, that little pull that, oh, oh, I wouldn't mind trying ceramics,
oh, I wouldn't mind cooking that recipe, oh, I wouldn't mind, you know, getting a new,
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like buying a house and decorating it, you know, so all of these are just the different
ways that that inner urge can potentially manifest. And in my eyes, everything is creative,
everything around us from, you know, the houses that we live in, to the clothes that we wear,
to, you know, the transport that we take, to the cars that we drive are all a product
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of human creativity. And so, yeah, it became really clear to me that creativity wasn't just
about the product. So it's not just about the product or the things that we see, but
there's so much more behind it that I think when we start to pull it apart and put it
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back together in ways that make sense to us on an individual level, it makes things like,
you know, starting the business, starting the podcast, you know, having the conversation,
it makes that stuff a lot easier and more accessible because we understand how we work.
And that's kind of what it's about.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's way less daunting if you take the pressure off yourself to not
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say, I have to produce this particular thing, but just to allow yourself to sit within the
process and explore. I think that's really interesting because if you're putting the
pressure on you to actually produce something at the end of it, you may not even start it.
Oh, man. Yeah. I mean, the number of conversations I have with people who are, shoulda, gunna,
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wanna, about so many different things, you know, and it's because they're putting the
cart before the horse. And so for me, whenever I try to create something, it's not so much
about, you know, I want to, I mean, sometimes it is, sometimes you know, you have a defined
thing that you're working towards. Like, yes, I want to start the podcast or yes, I want
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to start, you know, a newsletter. Like that's pretty defined. I think those ones where you're
kind of just applying your thinking and knowledge to an already existing framework, they're easy.
Like anybody can do that stuff because all that is is just about showing up and doing
the thing. However, where it gets more complicated is when there is, when what you're trying
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to create is more abstract because it maybe it's about something else. So maybe it's not
about the outcome, but it maybe it's about an idea. Maybe it's about a movement. Think
about something as abstract as business. You can set up all the frameworks. You can set
up all the tools. You can set up all the systems. But if you don't have a thing that you are
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selling, they don't really mean anything. So the things that are more abstract often
trip people up faster. And this is where particularly in that Design a Boss Summit, my presentation
was all about the incubation part of the creative process, which is the part when you think
about things that incubate. And the classic example is baking a cake, you know, you don't
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you, you know, you of course you get your ingredients, you get your recipe, you've got
your method, you make the batter, you put it in the tin. What do you do next? You put
it in the oven and you leave it. You leave it for a certain amount of time. You shouldn't
be they tell you don't open the oven door. It's going to make it take longer. Don't
poke it. Don't prod it. Don't you know, don't add more things to it. Just let it be, you
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know, and I think this is the part because we're in late stage capitalism. It's the
part of the equation that people don't want to do because it's the part where you have
to do nothing. You have to trust. You have to be and you have to trust. I have to leave
things alone. Like I swear, like so many things go unfinished because people won't wait another
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day or another week to just let it develop. You know, they just they try to rush it, they
rush it and they hate it. And so they just drop it or they just don't finish it at all
because they're like, this is taking too long. You know, so there's there's an element. Yes,
at the start. And so in different parts of the process, yes, at the start, be energetic,
have that vibe, that push, that hustle to get things started. But once it started, you
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know, once it's open, once it's happening, like take a few steps back and just let it
be let it let you know, take a moment to see what's trying to come out, you know, we don't
have to control every part of the process. In fact, if you try to control every part
of the process, you're going to end up burning out like that's a fast track to burn out if
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you try to keep a hold of everything. So I think that there's this beautiful push and
pull between active creation and passive creation. So those moments when we should when we should
lean in when we should push and then those moments when we need to retreat, because we're
in this for the a marathon, it's a marathon, not a sprint, and we're in this for the long
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haul, like I want to be creating stuff to the day I die. So I know now that it's okay
to just let something simmer or let something bake. And while you're doing that, and this
is the best part of it, you know, work on something else. There's always something else
to do. Hey, there you go. I do think that that is probably why a lot of people are afraid
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to jump into creativity, because we have this kind of expectation that you do everything
only if you're good at it. And so just going out there and just trying different ways exploring
different forms of creativity for yourself, and not necessarily nailing it, not being
like the best at it is very confronting for people. But I think what you're saying there
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about kind of being passive, sometimes you just got to be sitting in that journey. And
not you're not going to be sprinting ahead. Yeah, it is a marathon, you might you might
even be doing it walking pace or crawling pace, but you're still moving.
Absolutely. Because there's no this is the thing like the creative process, it's not
a linear thing. You know, it's a quantum experience. You are in every single phase
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of the creative process at all times. Some are just some just need more attention or
you know, more love than others. And they'll they'll they'll you know, they'll come into
frame, they'll recede back when they you know, when you've given them what they need. And
the thing is like, and this is why I made that comment around late stage capitalism,
because we we forget that the capitalist imperative is production. Like that is that
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is the highest goal of production, faster, more efficient, cheaper, and volume, right?
That is not what what our our MO is as humans, right? Our our the things that you know, allow
us to flourish, arrest, its connection, its experience, its emotion, you know, so not
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everything that you create needs to be sold. And this is that's another conversation I
have with people all the time, like not everything needs to be monetized. You can just keep it
for yourself. And not everything needs to be shared, you know, like so many people, particularly
what I see with commercial creatives. So they're our designers, developers, copywriters, anybody
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who works in a job marketers, small business owners, entrepreneurs, anyone works in a job
where they're trading their creative creativity for money. They often burn out the most when
they have given too much of themselves away. And I am totally guilty of this. And it happens
to me all the time, because they forget that they've got to put stuff back in creatively,
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and I'm not talking in terms of like just having a holiday, or meditating or having a nap, but
you have to create something that's personally meaning for you because that personal fuel
is what's going to drive everything else. Again, coming back to that inside out approach,
like being more creative in the external world is not going to fill our cup in the same way
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that it would somebody who doesn't work in a creative job. So there are differences and nuances
here between, you know, what kinds of creative activities we should do and try and stick with
depending on, you know, where creativity sits in our own personal ecosystem. You know, if it is my job,
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oh my god, like I do not want to have to have the pressure of being a master ceramicist. That would
stress me, you know, it would just stress me out. However, one of the things I love doing is just
coloring in a coloring book. Like the amount of joy that brings me, does anybody need to see that
shit? No, like, it's like useless, you know, it doesn't do anything for anybody else, except it
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makes me really happy. So I think that's part of it too, is understanding that, you know,
yes, you don't have to be a master, you don't even have to be a beginner. You could just have it be
something that's behind closed doors that just gives you some time to express yourself. Because
in essence, that's what creativity, you know, in a human perspective, from a human perspective,
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that's what it's there for. It's allowing us to release some of that emotional tension,
to get out what we need to get out, what's trying to come out, what we need to get out,
to clear, to clear our insights to make them a little bit more calm, collected, grounded,
that kind of stuff. Is that why you were linking creativity to, I think you called it the antidote
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to trauma? Is that like, oh, yeah, just as the, yeah, I pretty much, I've got, I've got like a one
liner that's like, creativity is the antidote. It's like, it's the poison and the antidote, right?
So, it's such an interesting paradox, because especially for people who work in creative jobs,
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oftentimes the last thing you want to do is, you know, create something else for, you know,
for someone else. So what I sort of say is like, 30 minutes a day, that is just for you. Like, it's
not about, it's not about producing, it's not about like, oh, I'm going to write a book. It's not about
anything that has a defined ending or outcome. It is about a practice. And this is so, I've also,
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I use this analogy quite a bit of an iceberg analogy. And I think a lot of other people do as
well in different industries. But for me, like, if we think about an iceberg, you have a little bit
at the tip that's out of the water that everybody can see. That's what I, that's the creative product.
So that's the website, it's the painting, it's the dance, it's the movie, whatever. You go below
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the surface and that's where the biggest part of the iceberg is that chunky middle bit, that's the
process. So it's just behind the product. It's basically what you go through to produce the
product. But the part of the, of creativity that I think is the most underserved and the most
underutilized is right at the very, very bottom of the iceberg. It's kind of like, it's the thing,
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it's like the, what do you call that? The, like a tail. Yeah, yeah. Or it's like the thing that
everything else kind of pivots on. It's got a word, classic copywriter brain. Words sometimes
just hate me. But it's like the magnet that everything else pivots off. At the very, very
bottom of the iceberg. It's in the deepest, coldest, harshest water. It's the creative practice. So
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people often don't talk about, I mean, artists do a lot. And this is where I think that when we,
we need to rally and get behind and lift up our artists because they
lead with practice. For them, if they do not practice their creativity every day,
everything is wrong. Whereas for everybody else, the practice of creativity is often the most
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unnerving because it's like, well, what do I produce? What do I have at the end of it? Where's
my reward? Because that's how we're trained. So when I say 30 minutes a day of tapping into your
own creativity, that's what it's about. It's like, what can I do that I can just experience that allows
me on a small scale to play, to move around, to connect some dots together. And some of my favorite
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activities for that, coloring in, as I mentioned before, is a brilliant one. Even just like drawing,
doing a puzzle, cooking is amazing. I tend to err away from the more wellness activities,
even though I think they are very creative. But again, they have defined, they kind of have their
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own defined outcomes. So it's more things that, particularly things that you can do with your
hands that pull you off a screen. They're so good for your brain and for your mental health and
for your nervous system to have that experience in little bite sized chunks every week. Because
that's the other part, right? Is that people are like, I'm going to be creative. And so, you know,
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they'll go to their calendar and they'll block out four hours on a Saturday. And then they wonder why
they never show up for it. Because it's too much. It's too much. It has to be the lowest possible
bar for us every day to build up the habit of creativity, habit, practice, habit, practice.
All of what you will. But yeah, so I think that's, if we can start to, you know, from an inside out
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perspective, think about what are the things that I like to do? What are the things that bring me
joy? It could be jewelry making. It could be, you know, hand modeling clay, anything, you know?
It just is a completely different way of experiencing life.
Yeah, it's true. And it is a step by step sort of thing. You can't just fully jump in and expect
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to be a champion swimmer. You're going to dip your toes in the water first. And so, like,
with this being such a sort of a creativity, being a healing process and a growth process,
do you think that we are going to start seeing this being prescribed to people as a part of a
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treatment? Or do you think that is just too far? Too far? No, no. I, you know, we've been doing that
for thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of years, you know? If we look at even
some of our first, you know, some of the first inhabitants of this country, you know, their
art and creativity and self-expression were woven into their storytelling from day dot, right?
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And even in some of some other cultures, you know, you go to the shaman and, you know, you'd say,
"I'm feeling this way." And they'd be like, "Okay, like, go and paint this brick for four days."
You know? So I think there's been so many different examples of it across time. And, you know, there
is a whole, particularly for trauma treatment, you know, there's a whole, the whole field of art
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therapy, which if you're in crisis is an incredibly beautiful thing and gift that you can give to
yourself that purely focuses on the practice. It's not about you're not training to be an artist,
but you're using art in a therapeutic way. And, you know, I've definitely done a lot of reading
and research and, you know, I've got a few friends who are in the field and it's, you know,
(32:41):
it's not as popular as it should be. But I think that naturally when capitalism is dipping towards
creativity as being the biggest money winner, as we're seeing now with, and we have been seeing
over the last sort of five to 10 years with the creator economy, there has to be tools and systems
(33:03):
and support that builds up around that, you know, and we saw it. We saw it with the wellness industry
before that. So I think it's only going to be coming, something they're going to become an even
more important conversation as our understanding of the human brain continues to evolve as the
(33:23):
conversation around mental health continues to expand and broaden and become, you know,
a lot more human. I think people, you know, and I think everyone's, you know, even if we look back,
and this is my favorite example of this, if we look back to the pandemic when we're in lockdown,
what did everybody do? Their first instinct, it wasn't to, you know, to work more. It was like,
(33:46):
let's bake bread. Let's upcycle furniture, you know, let's knit. So I think the part of the
problem with creativity is that because it's so innate and it's so deep within us, it gets taken
for granted. It gets taken for granted in every way imaginable. And, you know, and again, that's
(34:10):
part of that whole conversation around creativity is the antidote, because it's there. It's within us.
It's just, you know, it never goes away. It doesn't dry up, but just, it's just chills.
It's chilling there until you need it, really. It's kind of almost on demand. We just need to
know how to tap into it. Absolutely. And everybody has their own way of doing that, I believe,
(34:33):
based on your life experience, you know. For me, like, my creativity is very much wired to
challenge and growth and trauma. So when something, if something challenging happens,
the first thing I do is I go into creation mode. The first question I ask myself when
shit goes down is, what can I make of this? It's the very first question. For other people,
(34:56):
it might be when they're really happy. It's like, oh my gosh, I'm having the best time.
How do I express this? You know, and then they leap to the canvas. So I think it's about figuring
out with what's going on in your life. What are the, what are the kind of conversations that are
happening in your head that could potentially be a creative moment? You know, when you find yourself,
(35:18):
you know, and maybe it's, you know, maybe, maybe you struggle with conflict, and there's a conversation
that you need to have with someone, but you're really scared to have it. It's like, could that be
a creative moment? Could me and this person go and do a life drawing class and we talk while we're
painting, you know? So we can use creativity as a vehicle for difficult things. And I guess that's
(35:38):
kind of what my, you know, the tagline of my life is, is that, you know, creativity isn't just about,
you know, what we do, how we do it, but it's also like how we are, you know, because this is,
this is our lives, this is our creative life. And it is about what you want to do with it.
Wow. And that really kind of, things back to what you said before, is like, there's no right or wrong
(36:02):
way for it, where it comes out of happiness or from the deepest depths of sorrow. However,
expressive that's, wherever it, wherever it comes from is still fine. Absolutely. Yeah, there's no,
you know, there's no one way for any of this. Or for anything really, you know, and I think,
(36:25):
I think the quicker you can get your, wrap your head around that, the fact that there is more
than one way to do anything, the easier it becomes to find your own path through it.
Because that's it, right? You know, this is, creativity is for you. It's not for your boss,
it's not for your partner, it's not for your kids. I mean, everybody can have it. It's not
something that is a finite resource like time or money. Creativity is a quantum resource. It is,
(36:52):
it expands, it is constantly expanding. And your job is to figure out, A, how to tap into it, and
then B, what do you want to do with it when you've got it? They're the kind of the two questions,
oh, love that. I love the fact that it's expansive and it will just continue growing. There's,
there's never going to be a limit to it. It was here before us. It's going to be here after us.
(37:18):
Oh, fantastic. Oh, wow, that's amazing. I, Marian, I feel like I could talk to you. There's so many
other things that are in my brain. I'm going to have to invite you back. I would love that. This
is, this is the conversation of our lives, people. Never stop. Never, never, never stop.
Never stop. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll have to sort of condense my ideas a little bit more because I
(37:42):
feel like I could talk to you for like another 24 hours straight. But thanks so much for joining
me today. I really appreciate you giving me the time. Oh, you're so welcome. Honestly, like,
I, I take my hat off to you for creating or kind of opening up a gap for this conversation to flourish
(38:02):
and to continue. Because it's people like you and people like me that we, you know, we are so passionate
about what this concept can do and its power. You know, this is, this is how you change stuff,
right? So the more airtime we can give creativity, the better in my eyes. Yeah, right on.
Yes. And I think that this conversation definitely would have sparked a few ideas in the listeners,
(38:28):
especially about around how you can use your life experiences to help fuel your creativity.
So I want to say thank you so much to everyone who has tuned in to listen to Creativity (38:36):
Uncovered
today. I hope that what we've spoken about today helps you summon your creativity the next time
that you need it. Love it.
(38:56):
[Music]
If you've made it this far, a huge thank you for your support and tuning into today's episode.
Creativity (39:25):
Uncovered has been lovingly recorded on the land of the Kabi Kabi people and we pay
our respects to elders past, present and emerging. This podcast has been produced by my amazing team
here at Crisp Communications and the music you just heard was composed by James Gatling. If you
(39:46):
liked this episode, please do share it around and help us on our mission to unlock more creativity
in this world. You can also hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any new episode releases.
Uncovered. My name is Abi Gatling and I'm on a journey
(00:12):
to uncover how everyday people find inspiration, get inventive and open their imagination.
I basically want to find out how people use creativity at home, at work, at play and everything
in between. And my goal for this podcast is that by the end of it you'll be armed with
(00:33):
a whole suite of tried and tested ways for you to be able to summon creativity the next
time that you need it. Joining me today on the podcast is Dr. Marion Piper. And I'm very,
very excited to speak to Marion because I actually saw her present at a design summit
(00:55):
a couple of months ago and I just had to reach out. That's the great thing about this podcast
is just that I get to pick the brains of people who are inspiring and that's exactly what
I'm planning to do today. So welcome Marion.
Oh, thanks so much for having me. And that was the designer boss summit, which if people
(01:17):
aren't aware of it, it's an absolute riot. I had such a good time. And kudos to you for
reaching out. I think in today's hyperconnected world it can be really intimidating to reach
out to people or preemptively think that they wouldn't want to do it. But I've also found
in my journey that the times that I reach out and want to collaborate with people, it's
(01:41):
received usually pretty warmly. So I love the position where we're starting this conversation
from.
That's it. I'm trying to act on my sparks of curiosity a bit more intentionally. And
so when I was watching that and there were a bunch of other really great presenters as
well, I was like, I would like to know more about this. So I'm just going to YOLO and
(02:05):
do it. So I appreciate you saying yes. I YOLO'd to your YOLO.
Yes, YOLO squared. It was good. So yeah, I'm super keen to jump into our conversation.
I have so many questions for you. And there's so many things that I want to talk to you
about. Hopefully we can get through it all. But what caught my eye in the summit a couple
(02:30):
of months ago was you had the session about pushing through creative blocks and super
charging your creative process. And I'm sure you're going to share lots of great tips
throughout this conversation. But I actually would like to start with something else that
you mentioned in your presentation. And that was about your PhD in creativity and post traumatic
(02:56):
growth. Because I know there has to be a story behind that that is really interesting combination.
So why don't we start there? Tell me a bit more about your PhD. How did you get there?
And how did you choose that topic? Oh, man. Talk about opening Pandora's box
from the start. I love this. Yeah. So gosh, the PhD was one of the most incredibly personal
(03:24):
and growth field journeys that I've ever had the absolute honor of doing. You know, a lot
of people think that a PhD is this incredibly heady, you know, very analytical, very numbers
based experience, which for a lot of people it is. But for me, it was it was very much
a journey of catharsis. And it was kind of coincided serendipitously with a lot of other
(03:53):
things that were happening in my life at the time, almost in a chicken or the egg kind of
scenario. You know, did I do the PhD because it was going to be the life raft that I could
cling to to survive the things that were happening in my personal life? Or did things happen
in my personal life that then created the need for that exploration? So and this is something
(04:15):
that I'm yeah, this is something I'm really curious to investigate myself and have been
doing in some way shape or form my entire life is just trying to understand trauma, why
things happen to us and what happens to us as a result of you know, the things that we
experience. And so it was a really bizarre series of events that led to that PhD. I'd
(04:42):
been living abroad, I was traveling, I just finished my masters and my high school art
teacher shout out to Lexie Lasek. She reached out to me saying that I finished my masters
and said, Hey, do you want to come and do a PhD with me? I was like, No, I've just done
a thousand years at university. I'm done. But then she said, you know, whispered that,
(05:07):
you know, that magic phrase of you can do whatever you want. And that really tapped
into my one of my core values, which is freedom. So, you know, I started this is the beautiful
thing with PhD projects, particularly ones that are more creatively fueled. And mine
was 60% creative practice, 40% research. And so you start at the biggest possible widest
(05:32):
point of the funnel. And just over the years, you just narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow until
you end up at this place, it sounds almost too simple to be a research project, right?
Because that's it, like wisdom is simple. Anything that's over complicated hasn't been
distilled enough. So what I was really interested in was not so much, you know, the bad things
(05:56):
that happen to us after trauma, like, you know, we might experience PTSD, we might fall
apart, we might, you know, take that downward spiral as a result of what we've been through.
I was more interested with the the upwards tick, what I call this the spiral up. So
what what is that process like? What is what kick starts it? Is there is there ways to
(06:18):
that we can encourage it? And that's where I really discovered the term post traumatic
growth, which comes out of positive psychology. And these two researchers in the US, Tideshia
and Calhoun, really spearheaded the journey. There's been other researchers over the last
sort of 10 to 15 years that have looked into lots of other things like people who survive
(06:39):
natural disasters, significant physical injuries, like or experiences like breast cancer or
losing a limb. But psychologically speaking, so and from a creative lens, it's like, well,
okay, like, how do we how do we process? How do we deal with the stuff that happens to
us? And in my personal experience, the thing that saved me over and over and over again
(07:05):
is creativity. It is the one thing that no matter what I go through, if I dip into that
process, it always helps. Like there is no negative, at least what I've found, there's
no negative consequence to experiencing the creative process, except the fact that, you
know, you might change your life, you might decide to completely upend everything, you
(07:28):
might discover something new about yourself. So I went into that project, I kind of went
into that project thinking that I would be exploring that in an external way. So I was
really looking at resilience in teenagers is where I kind of started, because I was I
knew that that time of life is really significant. And there's not there at that point, there
(07:49):
was a huge amount of research done. And I was in an arts education faculty, so we were
looking more through it as a from an educational lens rather than a psychological one. But
then as I sort of started to do the research, I started to see myself in the research. And
that's when I really, yeah, I really lent in and, you know, was like, okay, this is the
(08:16):
time for me to really explore what I went through as a kid. Because also, from an advocacy
perspective, you know, there really wasn't a lot of arts based research that talked about
what all this stuff feels like, you know, there's so many clinical trials done or research
projects by the numbers that sort of explain, oh, you know, x percentage of people experience
(08:42):
post traumatic growth or like these are the traits that people have that are more likely
to experience post traumatic growth. But there was there really wasn't a lot from a narrative
perspective or a creative perspective that actually showed you or gave you an inside
look into what this stuff feels like. And, you know, my one of the things that I love
(09:02):
most about the creative process is it gives us a through line to self expression. It allows
us to take something that's inside of us that you know, it begins as a feeling or might begin
as a thought but moves as it becomes a feeling and translate that into something that someone
else might understand. And so this process that I that I've been developing and honing
(09:22):
over the years is really that transmutation. How do we take our pain and turn it into something
purposeful, something beautiful, something useful to other people that isn't necessarily
didactic. So it's not like I'm saying to you, you know, this is my pain. And these are the
(09:44):
exact reasons why or here's what you learn like it's not about it being educational,
but it's like that process of transmutation. Here's what it can feel like here's how we
can potentially guide ourselves through it. So as you can imagine, it was a bit of a baptism
of fire. And my project was really around I created an artist book called mother, which
(10:08):
explored what my mom and I went through when I was a kid and through her alcoholism and
our broken family and you know, all those kinds of things. And so I created this artist
book that was an exploration of the post traumatic growth. So it was looking at not so much at
the trauma, but as the positive things that came out of it. And it was my really my way
(10:30):
of processing and understanding who I am and where I've come from. And then alongside that,
you know, the universe works in crazy ways. This is this chicken or egg thing that I was
telling you about. My mom actually got really sick and then passed away in the second or
I think it was the second or third, probably the second year of my of my project. So gosh,
(10:55):
I yeah, and it became this thing where I was living my research as I was doing it, you
know, and it became yeah, because I became my own therapist, my own life coach, my own
you know, mentor, alongside my supervisors who equally went through some pretty horrific
things during the course of my project. And so you know, it's just this it's the reminder
(11:18):
that you know, life has so much beautiful raw material that we can use that we don't
understand and we can use creativity as a force to understand it so that we can learn
from it right. Yeah, wow. It's like so meta right you're doing PhD. So the most meta.
(11:39):
Yeah, you're doing this PhD investigating creativity is impact on post traumatic growth
at the same time while you're doing a creative act of writing the book and then also experiencing
even more trauma that yeah, I pretty much fell apart after it was done. Oh my gosh, I
can imagine I mean most people do just through because of the sheer amount of work, let alone
(12:05):
all these other hugely emotional impacting things throughout it. Well, you know, and
I think back at that time and that person that I was when I started that project was
very very very different to you know, the iteration of myself that I am now but we
(12:25):
know you mentioned at the start that you were leaning in for this podcast you're leaning
into that curiosity. And that's what I was doing something was coming up for me that
was was like hey, I like demanding my attention it was like hey hey we need to look at this
we need to explore this is something valuable here. And so what I did was I created in my
(12:46):
external reality the systems and structures to support that exploration. You know, and
I think if we can start to think more from an inside out perspective about our lives
and what we want to do and what we want to create. It becomes less about how do I fit
myself and my creative voice into these things that exist in the world and becomes more about
(13:08):
how do I find the structures and systems and the things that already exist that are going
to support the things that I'm passionate about, which is why you know you see people
get you know, leave jobs, create toxic environments you know because they're trying to fit themselves
into something that isn't right. But we have so much more agency when it comes to our creativity
(13:30):
and you'll sort of you'll sort of hear me talk about it in a way that's that might be
a little bit different because I'm really trying to separate it from the artistry from
the act of being creative. When we talk about creativity per se, my definition is that it's
an organic process of connecting the dots and you in interesting ways. So it's really
(13:51):
not about what you produce but it's how you look and it's how you act in the world. Before
you even put pen to paper, you know, you dance or sing or whatever like that's very very
that's one of the byproducts of creativity but I'm bringing it a step back rather than
following down that skills and abilities and talents.
(14:11):
Yes. I love that. I think that's a really interesting take on creativity. And I saw that
on your website, creativity isn't just art, it's how we connect the dots. And it really
does speak to creativity being a mindset and not just a creative act. That's just very
interesting. Like how did you how did you stumble across that as being your view of
(14:37):
creativity?
Yeah, it's a good question. I think I think I've always felt this way. And it's evidence
to me. I mean, obviously, this stuff is easier to see when you look back because you can
connect the dots easier when you can actually see the dots for what they are.
Yeah.
And so, you know, it's evidence to me by the fact that I never really, well, writing has
(15:00):
always been, you know, one of my biggest passions. It's not the only one. And I've always oscillated
between every possible type of creative expression that you could imagine. And I love them all
just in different degrees, right? So that for me was an indication first and foremost
that it's not really about the medium for me. It's about the process and it's about
(15:21):
the experience and how that experience makes me feel. So when I was doing my PhD specifically,
I had to come up with it. I had to define it. I had to define this thing called creativity
in order to frame my research underneath it. That's part of the process, right? You've
got to put some parameters around your thinking so that it builds a stronger case for you
(15:44):
throughout the course of your project. And so, you know, I was looking at different definitions
of creativity that were, you know, more process driven or potentially they were more outcome
driven or they were more spiritually driven. But then when I read the one about it being
an organic process particularly, and organic processes happen inside living things. And
(16:08):
that's really a big part of the definition for me is that it's something that we do and
that is so innate to us, even on a cellular level. I mean, you could argue, you know,
we are the universe, atomically, on a very, very basic level, we're made of the same stuff
as the stars. What's the universe's, you know, MO that they've figured constantly expanding,
(16:28):
it's constantly creating, that is what we are doing, we are a reflection of that, right?
So connecting it to something bigger than you as well makes it, I think takes a lot of the
pressure off, I know it does for me, so that I can just play, you know, if my job is just
constant expansion, constant creation, it actually doesn't matter what I produce. So
(16:49):
as long as I honour that innate urge that's within me. And so that's why I also have a
sub-stack newsletter which is called The Creative Urge because oftentimes this stuff starts when
we like, we feel that like, that little pull that, oh, oh, I wouldn't mind trying ceramics,
oh, I wouldn't mind cooking that recipe, oh, I wouldn't mind, you know, getting a new,
(17:11):
like buying a house and decorating it, you know, so all of these are just the different
ways that that inner urge can potentially manifest. And in my eyes, everything is creative,
everything around us from, you know, the houses that we live in, to the clothes that we wear,
to, you know, the transport that we take, to the cars that we drive are all a product
(17:33):
of human creativity. And so, yeah, it became really clear to me that creativity wasn't just
about the product. So it's not just about the product or the things that we see, but
there's so much more behind it that I think when we start to pull it apart and put it
(17:53):
back together in ways that make sense to us on an individual level, it makes things like,
you know, starting the business, starting the podcast, you know, having the conversation,
it makes that stuff a lot easier and more accessible because we understand how we work.
And that's kind of what it's about.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's way less daunting if you take the pressure off yourself to not
(18:18):
say, I have to produce this particular thing, but just to allow yourself to sit within the
process and explore. I think that's really interesting because if you're putting the
pressure on you to actually produce something at the end of it, you may not even start it.
Oh, man. Yeah. I mean, the number of conversations I have with people who are, shoulda, gunna,
(18:44):
wanna, about so many different things, you know, and it's because they're putting the
cart before the horse. And so for me, whenever I try to create something, it's not so much
about, you know, I want to, I mean, sometimes it is, sometimes you know, you have a defined
thing that you're working towards. Like, yes, I want to start the podcast or yes, I want
(19:08):
to start, you know, a newsletter. Like that's pretty defined. I think those ones where you're
kind of just applying your thinking and knowledge to an already existing framework, they're easy.
Like anybody can do that stuff because all that is is just about showing up and doing
the thing. However, where it gets more complicated is when there is, when what you're trying
(19:28):
to create is more abstract because it maybe it's about something else. So maybe it's not
about the outcome, but it maybe it's about an idea. Maybe it's about a movement. Think
about something as abstract as business. You can set up all the frameworks. You can set
up all the tools. You can set up all the systems. But if you don't have a thing that you are
(19:49):
selling, they don't really mean anything. So the things that are more abstract often
trip people up faster. And this is where particularly in that Design a Boss Summit, my presentation
was all about the incubation part of the creative process, which is the part when you think
about things that incubate. And the classic example is baking a cake, you know, you don't
(20:13):
you, you know, you of course you get your ingredients, you get your recipe, you've got
your method, you make the batter, you put it in the tin. What do you do next? You put
it in the oven and you leave it. You leave it for a certain amount of time. You shouldn't
be they tell you don't open the oven door. It's going to make it take longer. Don't
poke it. Don't prod it. Don't you know, don't add more things to it. Just let it be, you
(20:36):
know, and I think this is the part because we're in late stage capitalism. It's the
part of the equation that people don't want to do because it's the part where you have
to do nothing. You have to trust. You have to be and you have to trust. I have to leave
things alone. Like I swear, like so many things go unfinished because people won't wait another
(20:57):
day or another week to just let it develop. You know, they just they try to rush it, they
rush it and they hate it. And so they just drop it or they just don't finish it at all
because they're like, this is taking too long. You know, so there's there's an element. Yes,
at the start. And so in different parts of the process, yes, at the start, be energetic,
have that vibe, that push, that hustle to get things started. But once it started, you
(21:22):
know, once it's open, once it's happening, like take a few steps back and just let it
be let it let you know, take a moment to see what's trying to come out, you know, we don't
have to control every part of the process. In fact, if you try to control every part
of the process, you're going to end up burning out like that's a fast track to burn out if
(21:42):
you try to keep a hold of everything. So I think that there's this beautiful push and
pull between active creation and passive creation. So those moments when we should when we should
lean in when we should push and then those moments when we need to retreat, because we're
in this for the a marathon, it's a marathon, not a sprint, and we're in this for the long
(22:03):
haul, like I want to be creating stuff to the day I die. So I know now that it's okay
to just let something simmer or let something bake. And while you're doing that, and this
is the best part of it, you know, work on something else. There's always something else
to do. Hey, there you go. I do think that that is probably why a lot of people are afraid
(22:26):
to jump into creativity, because we have this kind of expectation that you do everything
only if you're good at it. And so just going out there and just trying different ways exploring
different forms of creativity for yourself, and not necessarily nailing it, not being
like the best at it is very confronting for people. But I think what you're saying there
(22:51):
about kind of being passive, sometimes you just got to be sitting in that journey. And
not you're not going to be sprinting ahead. Yeah, it is a marathon, you might you might
even be doing it walking pace or crawling pace, but you're still moving.
Absolutely. Because there's no this is the thing like the creative process, it's not
a linear thing. You know, it's a quantum experience. You are in every single phase
(23:17):
of the creative process at all times. Some are just some just need more attention or
you know, more love than others. And they'll they'll they'll you know, they'll come into
frame, they'll recede back when they you know, when you've given them what they need. And
the thing is like, and this is why I made that comment around late stage capitalism,
because we we forget that the capitalist imperative is production. Like that is that
(23:43):
is the highest goal of production, faster, more efficient, cheaper, and volume, right?
That is not what what our our MO is as humans, right? Our our the things that you know, allow
us to flourish, arrest, its connection, its experience, its emotion, you know, so not
(24:06):
everything that you create needs to be sold. And this is that's another conversation I
have with people all the time, like not everything needs to be monetized. You can just keep it
for yourself. And not everything needs to be shared, you know, like so many people, particularly
what I see with commercial creatives. So they're our designers, developers, copywriters, anybody
(24:30):
who works in a job marketers, small business owners, entrepreneurs, anyone works in a job
where they're trading their creative creativity for money. They often burn out the most when
they have given too much of themselves away. And I am totally guilty of this. And it happens
to me all the time, because they forget that they've got to put stuff back in creatively,
(24:52):
and I'm not talking in terms of like just having a holiday, or meditating or having a nap, but
you have to create something that's personally meaning for you because that personal fuel
is what's going to drive everything else. Again, coming back to that inside out approach,
like being more creative in the external world is not going to fill our cup in the same way
(25:14):
that it would somebody who doesn't work in a creative job. So there are differences and nuances
here between, you know, what kinds of creative activities we should do and try and stick with
depending on, you know, where creativity sits in our own personal ecosystem. You know, if it is my job,
(25:35):
oh my god, like I do not want to have to have the pressure of being a master ceramicist. That would
stress me, you know, it would just stress me out. However, one of the things I love doing is just
coloring in a coloring book. Like the amount of joy that brings me, does anybody need to see that
shit? No, like, it's like useless, you know, it doesn't do anything for anybody else, except it
(25:58):
makes me really happy. So I think that's part of it too, is understanding that, you know,
yes, you don't have to be a master, you don't even have to be a beginner. You could just have it be
something that's behind closed doors that just gives you some time to express yourself. Because
in essence, that's what creativity, you know, in a human perspective, from a human perspective,
(26:21):
that's what it's there for. It's allowing us to release some of that emotional tension,
to get out what we need to get out, what's trying to come out, what we need to get out,
to clear, to clear our insights to make them a little bit more calm, collected, grounded,
that kind of stuff. Is that why you were linking creativity to, I think you called it the antidote
(26:47):
to trauma? Is that like, oh, yeah, just as the, yeah, I pretty much, I've got, I've got like a one
liner that's like, creativity is the antidote. It's like, it's the poison and the antidote, right?
So, it's such an interesting paradox, because especially for people who work in creative jobs,
(27:10):
oftentimes the last thing you want to do is, you know, create something else for, you know,
for someone else. So what I sort of say is like, 30 minutes a day, that is just for you. Like, it's
not about, it's not about producing, it's not about like, oh, I'm going to write a book. It's not about
anything that has a defined ending or outcome. It is about a practice. And this is so, I've also,
(27:37):
I use this analogy quite a bit of an iceberg analogy. And I think a lot of other people do as
well in different industries. But for me, like, if we think about an iceberg, you have a little bit
at the tip that's out of the water that everybody can see. That's what I, that's the creative product.
So that's the website, it's the painting, it's the dance, it's the movie, whatever. You go below
(28:00):
the surface and that's where the biggest part of the iceberg is that chunky middle bit, that's the
process. So it's just behind the product. It's basically what you go through to produce the
product. But the part of the, of creativity that I think is the most underserved and the most
underutilized is right at the very, very bottom of the iceberg. It's kind of like, it's the thing,
(28:23):
it's like the, what do you call that? The, like a tail. Yeah, yeah. Or it's like the thing that
everything else kind of pivots on. It's got a word, classic copywriter brain. Words sometimes
just hate me. But it's like the magnet that everything else pivots off. At the very, very
bottom of the iceberg. It's in the deepest, coldest, harshest water. It's the creative practice. So
(28:49):
people often don't talk about, I mean, artists do a lot. And this is where I think that when we,
we need to rally and get behind and lift up our artists because they
lead with practice. For them, if they do not practice their creativity every day,
everything is wrong. Whereas for everybody else, the practice of creativity is often the most
(29:11):
unnerving because it's like, well, what do I produce? What do I have at the end of it? Where's
my reward? Because that's how we're trained. So when I say 30 minutes a day of tapping into your
own creativity, that's what it's about. It's like, what can I do that I can just experience that allows
me on a small scale to play, to move around, to connect some dots together. And some of my favorite
(29:33):
activities for that, coloring in, as I mentioned before, is a brilliant one. Even just like drawing,
doing a puzzle, cooking is amazing. I tend to err away from the more wellness activities,
even though I think they are very creative. But again, they have defined, they kind of have their
(29:54):
own defined outcomes. So it's more things that, particularly things that you can do with your
hands that pull you off a screen. They're so good for your brain and for your mental health and
for your nervous system to have that experience in little bite sized chunks every week. Because
that's the other part, right? Is that people are like, I'm going to be creative. And so, you know,
(30:17):
they'll go to their calendar and they'll block out four hours on a Saturday. And then they wonder why
they never show up for it. Because it's too much. It's too much. It has to be the lowest possible
bar for us every day to build up the habit of creativity, habit, practice, habit, practice.
All of what you will. But yeah, so I think that's, if we can start to, you know, from an inside out
(30:42):
perspective, think about what are the things that I like to do? What are the things that bring me
joy? It could be jewelry making. It could be, you know, hand modeling clay, anything, you know?
It just is a completely different way of experiencing life.
Yeah, it's true. And it is a step by step sort of thing. You can't just fully jump in and expect
(31:09):
to be a champion swimmer. You're going to dip your toes in the water first. And so, like,
with this being such a sort of a creativity, being a healing process and a growth process,
do you think that we are going to start seeing this being prescribed to people as a part of a
(31:32):
treatment? Or do you think that is just too far? Too far? No, no. I, you know, we've been doing that
for thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of years, you know? If we look at even
some of our first, you know, some of the first inhabitants of this country, you know, their
art and creativity and self-expression were woven into their storytelling from day dot, right?
(31:55):
And even in some of some other cultures, you know, you go to the shaman and, you know, you'd say,
"I'm feeling this way." And they'd be like, "Okay, like, go and paint this brick for four days."
You know? So I think there's been so many different examples of it across time. And, you know, there
is a whole, particularly for trauma treatment, you know, there's a whole, the whole field of art
(32:16):
therapy, which if you're in crisis is an incredibly beautiful thing and gift that you can give to
yourself that purely focuses on the practice. It's not about you're not training to be an artist,
but you're using art in a therapeutic way. And, you know, I've definitely done a lot of reading
and research and, you know, I've got a few friends who are in the field and it's, you know,
(32:41):
it's not as popular as it should be. But I think that naturally when capitalism is dipping towards
creativity as being the biggest money winner, as we're seeing now with, and we have been seeing
over the last sort of five to 10 years with the creator economy, there has to be tools and systems
(33:03):
and support that builds up around that, you know, and we saw it. We saw it with the wellness industry
before that. So I think it's only going to be coming, something they're going to become an even
more important conversation as our understanding of the human brain continues to evolve as the
(33:23):
conversation around mental health continues to expand and broaden and become, you know,
a lot more human. I think people, you know, and I think everyone's, you know, even if we look back,
and this is my favorite example of this, if we look back to the pandemic when we're in lockdown,
what did everybody do? Their first instinct, it wasn't to, you know, to work more. It was like,
(33:46):
let's bake bread. Let's upcycle furniture, you know, let's knit. So I think the part of the
problem with creativity is that because it's so innate and it's so deep within us, it gets taken
for granted. It gets taken for granted in every way imaginable. And, you know, and again, that's
(34:10):
part of that whole conversation around creativity is the antidote, because it's there. It's within us.
It's just, you know, it never goes away. It doesn't dry up, but just, it's just chills.
It's chilling there until you need it, really. It's kind of almost on demand. We just need to
know how to tap into it. Absolutely. And everybody has their own way of doing that, I believe,
(34:33):
based on your life experience, you know. For me, like, my creativity is very much wired to
challenge and growth and trauma. So when something, if something challenging happens,
the first thing I do is I go into creation mode. The first question I ask myself when
shit goes down is, what can I make of this? It's the very first question. For other people,
(34:56):
it might be when they're really happy. It's like, oh my gosh, I'm having the best time.
How do I express this? You know, and then they leap to the canvas. So I think it's about figuring
out with what's going on in your life. What are the, what are the kind of conversations that are
happening in your head that could potentially be a creative moment? You know, when you find yourself,
(35:18):
you know, and maybe it's, you know, maybe, maybe you struggle with conflict, and there's a conversation
that you need to have with someone, but you're really scared to have it. It's like, could that be
a creative moment? Could me and this person go and do a life drawing class and we talk while we're
painting, you know? So we can use creativity as a vehicle for difficult things. And I guess that's
(35:38):
kind of what my, you know, the tagline of my life is, is that, you know, creativity isn't just about,
you know, what we do, how we do it, but it's also like how we are, you know, because this is,
this is our lives, this is our creative life. And it is about what you want to do with it.
Wow. And that really kind of, things back to what you said before, is like, there's no right or wrong
(36:02):
way for it, where it comes out of happiness or from the deepest depths of sorrow. However,
expressive that's, wherever it, wherever it comes from is still fine. Absolutely. Yeah, there's no,
you know, there's no one way for any of this. Or for anything really, you know, and I think,
(36:25):
I think the quicker you can get your, wrap your head around that, the fact that there is more
than one way to do anything, the easier it becomes to find your own path through it.
Because that's it, right? You know, this is, creativity is for you. It's not for your boss,
it's not for your partner, it's not for your kids. I mean, everybody can have it. It's not
something that is a finite resource like time or money. Creativity is a quantum resource. It is,
(36:52):
it expands, it is constantly expanding. And your job is to figure out, A, how to tap into it, and
then B, what do you want to do with it when you've got it? They're the kind of the two questions,
oh, love that. I love the fact that it's expansive and it will just continue growing. There's,
there's never going to be a limit to it. It was here before us. It's going to be here after us.
(37:18):
Oh, fantastic. Oh, wow, that's amazing. I, Marian, I feel like I could talk to you. There's so many
other things that are in my brain. I'm going to have to invite you back. I would love that. This
is, this is the conversation of our lives, people. Never stop. Never, never, never stop.
Never stop. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll have to sort of condense my ideas a little bit more because I
(37:42):
feel like I could talk to you for like another 24 hours straight. But thanks so much for joining
me today. I really appreciate you giving me the time. Oh, you're so welcome. Honestly, like,
I, I take my hat off to you for creating or kind of opening up a gap for this conversation to flourish
(38:02):
and to continue. Because it's people like you and people like me that we, you know, we are so passionate
about what this concept can do and its power. You know, this is, this is how you change stuff,
right? So the more airtime we can give creativity, the better in my eyes. Yeah, right on.
Yes. And I think that this conversation definitely would have sparked a few ideas in the listeners,
(38:28):
especially about around how you can use your life experiences to help fuel your creativity.
So I want to say thank you so much to everyone who has tuned in to listen to Creativity (38:36):
Uncovered
today. I hope that what we've spoken about today helps you summon your creativity the next time
that you need it. Love it.
(38:56):
[Music]
If you've made it this far, a huge thank you for your support and tuning into today's episode.
Creativity (39:25):
Uncovered has been lovingly recorded on the land of the Kabi Kabi people and we pay
our respects to elders past, present and emerging. This podcast has been produced by my amazing team
here at Crisp Communications and the music you just heard was composed by James Gatling. If you
(39:46):
liked this episode, please do share it around and help us on our mission to unlock more creativity
in this world. You can also hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any new episode releases.
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