November 6, 2023 • 39 mins
Andy J. Pizza is a storyteller.
Whether it is through his illustrations, his books, his podcast or his public speaking, he is always seeking out new ways to dive deeper into his creativity and share authentic stories.
But, you’d be forgiven for thinking that Andy, someone who is internationally renowned, has done work for The New York Times, YouTube and Glastonbury, and has had such stars as Joseph Gordon-Levitt on his podcast, would be on his A-game all the time… right?
Wrong. Even the best of the best still can fall into a creative funk, and Andy shares exactly what he does when it happens to him. He also shares how he found his creativity style, how he continually evolves practice and his plans for the future.
Happy listening!
xo Abi
P.S. For more information about this episode and our guest, head to: www.crispcomms.co/podcast-episodes/finding-your-creative-style-amp-busting-the-creative-funk
Creativity: Uncovered is lovingly edited by the team at Crisp Communications.
Creativity: Uncovered is a registered Australian Trade Mark.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hello and welcome to Creativity (00:00):
Uncovered. My name is Abi Gatling and I am on a journey
(00:11):
to uncover how everyday people find inspiration, get inventive and open their imagination.
Basically, I want to find out how people find creative solutions and then how they use them
at home, work, play and everything in between. And my goal for this podcast is that by the
(00:32):
end of it, you'll be armed with a whole suite of tried and tested ways to someone creativity
the next time that you need it.
Now today, oh my gosh, I am so excited to be speaking with Andy J. Pizza. Andy is a hugely
accomplished illustrator and podcaster and you may recognize him as his works on adverts
(00:59):
for Amazon, Nickelodeon, YouTube. I'm pretty sure he's even designed a Glastonbury post
up which is pretty epic. So we're definitely in the presence of greatness today. Welcome
Andy.
Okay, I got to live up to a lot there. I'll try. Yeah, I did do did the Glastonbury 2015
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Guardian Guide. That was one of the best projects. I'm glad you brought that up.
So good. I mean, the breadth of your work is so cool. I was just having another little
sneaky peek of your website just before. I've been like, oh my gosh, there are so many exciting
projects. I want to dive into all of them. But for context, obviously you can tell I'm
(01:46):
fangirling a little bit right now. But Andy, I wanted to reach out to you because I kind
of need to thank you partially for helping me start this podcast because last year I
was actually on a long haul to the US and I came across this creative series you did
about finding your creative style. And I just binge watched the entire thing. It was fantastic.
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And I think that it helped click something in my brain. And so throughout that entire
trip, it was things were wearing away. And by the end of it, I was like, I'm making this
podcast. So thank you, firstly. And I also want to go, what, how did you get into that
series? How did that come about?
Did that was that on the podcast or was that a class?
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It was one of your masterclasses. Yeah.
Okay. Yeah, cool. Did you see it on a plane?
I did.
Okay.
That's just a funny, weird thing that I didn't know was I did a class with Skillshare and
they put it on planes. So it's one of the airlines has this on there, which is very bizarre,
very weird. But yeah, I did that style class because I think when I first started as an
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illustrator, you know, I didn't I went to school and I was like, all my favorite illustrators
have a style. I need to spend my time at school finding a style. It seems like pretty important.
And I think when I expressed this to my teachers, I was just kind of met with like I had some
great teachers, but early on, I felt like when I would say I need to find my style, their
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vibe back would be the kind of overly mystical mindset that you sometimes find in the creative
world. And it was kind of like, find your style. Your style finds you if you're lucky.
And I'm like, dude, I'm paying you. I can't. This isn't luck. Like I got to figure this
out, man. And so I, you know, I think the first few years, I was so panicked about what
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to do because this is what I chose to do as a job that I was just making work that was
trendy. And I was authentically into it. And I still like that stuff that I made, but
it wasn't, it wasn't anything deeper than this is kind of like the trends of the, of
the moment. And I'm trying to put my spin on it, but it's not doesn't, it's not speaking
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to why I'm wanted to make creative work. And I don't feel like I'm putting myself in it.
And so I really felt like I was just stumbling through the dark for several years, trying
to figure out who am I, like, and how do you put that into a drawing? And so I was, I didn't
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know if I was making any progress. And then eventually a handful of things clicked. And
I just wanted to kind of simplify those ideas into a few step by step things that aren't
magic. But I do think if I would have had that, it would have saved me years. And so
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that's kind of how I got into it. And then as I also, as I developed in my creative practice
and have gone along and kind of dove into depth psychology and, you know, stuff like
that, I've realized that some of the stuff that I was doing, there's like a real precedent.
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Whether it's like young young in psychology or active imagination or kind of psychoanalytic
way of thinking about symbolism and stuff like that. And so yeah, the further I go, the
more convinced I am that there are pretty practical things that you can do to help project your
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inner world onto a page in a way that is authentic. So I think that that is kind of where where
it came from.
Oh, that's so cool. I love the fact that there's so much depth to your illustrations that it's
not just that it looks snazzy on a piece of paper or on a big mural or whatever you're
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doing at the time. It's actually thought that goes into it and research and stuff. But how
do we actually jump into that from going, Oh, this looks nice to actually going, I want
to find out why this looks nice. Or why does this, why is this meaningful?
Yeah, I'm, you know, I think that that is a great question. I think it starts with believing
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that there's treasure there. Like, you're never going to dig in if you don't think there's
treasure in there, right? Like you got to you got to have some belief. And I find that
that's one of the early hurdles that a lot of creators struggle with. And I really struggled
with is I started gathering all of this inspiration and what now I've heard called in the psychology
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world, um, uh, psychically charged images. So like symbols that were reoccurring in,
in my favorite things. And at first I just kind of felt like, Oh, why do you like these?
Because they're cool. Like that was it. Like, cause it's cool. And I think that, um, yeah,
the hurdle that the obstacle that I think is easy to trip up on is you don't believe
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that you are deep as a person. You don't believe that you have any other layers. You don't
believe that the reason these things are resonating goes beyond like you're just trying to be
cool or, you know, whatever. And so I think that, yeah, that, I think that's the real first
step is believe gathering this stuff, having the faith that there is something worth cultivating
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here. There is something worth these connections actually go beyond just trying to seem fashionable
or cool or whatever. Um, and you know, having the faith to dig into them and reflect on
them because that's the thing I, whenever I've like taught or worked with other creators,
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that's the first stumbling block is that is getting past. Why do you like this? Cause
it's cool. I don't know. Like you, I think you have to go beyond that. And the same,
it's kind of the same thing you see in like dream interpretation. And I think dream interpretation
is, um, there's a lot of opinions on this, especially, you know, experts in the field
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researchers feel like the jury's really out on what is a dream? Is it, is it totally random?
Is it not totally random? I think for me personally, where I can set up camp, I'm endlessly fascinated
with dreams. Um, and there's our images of our inner world. So that's really rich as
a, as a creator, as an illustrator or whatever. Um, that's like all imagery that you kind
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of own. So like, you know, that's, that's good stuff to like work from. But, um, I feel
like even though I don't really know what dreams are exactly, what I do feel, I feel
certain of is that they're kind of like your deep self writing you a poem about how you're
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feeling. So it might not be more than that, but it's, it is always emotionally charged.
And those emotions are always showing up as pictures. And in the most kind of basic way,
it's that is symbolism. That's metaphor. And, uh, and it, and I'm talking about that
because in the same way, it's easy to wake up from a dream and just say, well, it doesn't
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mean anything. It's just random stuff bubbling up. Um, you know, but in that same way that
with your own taste and interests, you can say, Oh, maybe there's something beyond this
just being cool and trust that there's some, it's connected to something in inside of you.
Um, is that an answer? I don't even remember what you asked anymore, but it sounded good.
(10:00):
So I'm happy with that. I think it's interesting that you mentioned the dream thing because
I just only a couple of weeks ago interviewed someone who helps people remember their dreams
better because she believes that it is actually your deep subconscious. Your brain is ticking
away with your awake or not. And if you can remember as much as your dreams as you can,
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you can choose to do with it as you will. You can choose to be inspired for your creativity
or might help you solve this problem that you've been trying to work on. Uh, so I'll
definitely flick you that episode.
Cool. That's awesome.
I love the fact that, um, your creativity is so deeply, uh, grounded in curiosity and
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following that, you know, pulling that thread and seeing where it goes. Do you think that
that is something that everyone needs to have to be a creative?
Yeah, I think, I think so. I think you do. I mean, I think you have to be able to, uh,
give yourself permission to be curious and let that kind of, I think especially as someone
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with ADHD, I feel like I, I realized like kind of watching my mom struggle with, um,
similar tendencies. I think I knew in a way that I'm not in control of, I'm not in, I'm
not completely in control of what I'm curious about. So I think that there is a way it's
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kind of curious George, like you just have to follow him. You can't like, you can try
to box it in, but it's going to like find a way out and find it. And so I think even
from when I, and it's pretty difficult to like build your life around that because it
is out of control. It's not, I heard someone today actually talking about how, um, on Twitter
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talking about how, uh, they don't like the idea of ADHD being a superpower. And I totally
relate to what they're saying 100%. And I had the, I had a thought then like a couple
of tweets down and replies, someone said the same thing, which it's like a superpower that
you can't control. So it's like you have laser eyes and you, but you can't turn them off.
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You don't get to tell them when they turn on, like, because you don't get to control your
curiosity and your hyper focus. It's kind of out, out of your control. And I think that,
um, yeah, I think creativity is about is, is at least partially about letting that curiosity
run wild. Um, and kind of just following it where the life is, but the other piece to
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it is, is being curious about yourself. And I think one of my kind of go to core values
as a creator is the idea that, you know, art is self-expression and you're never going
to love the work that you make. You're never going to love that self-expression. If you
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hate the thing, it's an expression of, which is yourself. So you have to be curious about
yourself. You have to love yourself if you're ever going to love your work. And I think
that for me, that was another big breakthrough for style was, um, I think I had a big shift
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in my mid twenties from a real negative psychology to what, um, uh, is it to a positive psychology,
which is an actual, it's not toxic positivity. It's none of that. It's, it's a positive
psychology meaning rather than just saying, here's what's wrong with you and broken. It
needs to, you know, these are your disorders. Um, positive psychology is this massive movement
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around believing that you're, you're maybe ultimately a good thing. And when you do feel
that way, you can be really curious because you can open up those doors because you think,
well, even if it looks scary from the outside, maybe there's a positive reason why this feature
or behavior developed. And I think, I think more than anything in terms of art, that self
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curiosity is, is really key.
Hmm. So if your stuff is really this personal expression, do you ever feel really exposed
having it out over the world to see?
Yeah, I do. I do feel that way. I think that, um, I think that I have luckily from pretty
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early on felt the need to create boundaries around certain aspects. Um, there's, there's
certain areas like I mentioned my mom earlier, that's a thing that I have been really open
about my relationship to my mom and that, how that relates to my relationship with being
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someone who's ADHD. Um, you know, those are things that I've been extremely open about.
And, but there are a lot of other things that I don't, like I try pretty, pretty much to
never talk explicitly about my kids, um, their names, their likeness, like I try not to get
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into any of that. Um, there are certain aspects of my story that I don't share because I don't
really feel like they're public, you know, they're not related to, um, my, yeah, I don't
need to be explicit about every aspect of that. But even those things show up in the
work, um, in, in, uh, in a way that might just be symbolic. So I think that, um, yeah,
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I do sometimes feel that way. I do, you know, the thing that I probably feel most vulnerable
about is for instance, you know, having a podcast for nine years, there are things looking
back on that when I think about my position on something or how I showed up in that particular
episode, I always know that I was being authentic. Like it's very rare that I wasn't being authentic.
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But so I wasn't ever lying, but I might disagree with myself now. So like looking back, that's
kind of the most vulnerable I feel is like, I wish I could just clarify things or go,
you know, uh, disagree with myself or throw off things that I used to hold dearly and
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or, and I just feel like, oh, I got those things wrong. And I wish I hadn't said that.
But that's, I think that that's the nature of having a public art practice too. Um,
I'm sure lots of musicians feel like that about songs they wrote or whatever.
Oh, absolutely. And I mean, and it's such a human thing to evolve and you change your
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views, you change your viewpoints and you learn more and you can't go back and apologize
for everything. You have a retraction for every episode or something like that. So do
you. So if it, if it is such a public life and there are some things that you don't want
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to necessarily share with the whole wide world, do you ever make art that is just for yourself
and for your family to consume? Yeah, I mean, I don't, being a, I mean, this is a common
complaint about the, what happens when you make your passion, your job is that you don't
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have as much left for yourself and, and it kind of changes the nature of this thing that
you love because now it's an obligation. So there definitely is that aspect of it. However,
I think over the past few years, especially, um, it's, and it's been kind of intermittent,
but I have done more like journaling and, uh, you know, writing out and sometimes drawing
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my dreams and stuff of that nature. So there are that, that would be probably the most
that, that would probably fall into that bucket more than anything else of like, um, I've
become increasingly interested in, yeah, dreams as a personal journaling practice. And so,
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and that stuff sometimes bleeds out into my professional practice, but that's probably
the most personal stuff that I do. Yeah. If you're doing a lot of this reflective stuff
and diving deep into your understanding of your art, is your art evolving with that as
well? Because of that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yes, I think that, uh, I've been on a weird
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little bit of a hero's journey with illustration over the past 10 years in a way because, um,
I, when I started the podcast nine years ago, that was on the back of a talk that I did
and I had like really had this incredible experience telling stories on stage, just with
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this little local talk that I did. And, uh, and I wanted to turn that into a bigger part
of my practice. And I got so into it that I was like, I like this more than I like illustration.
And I had already built an illustration practice. Um, and I was like, I don't know what it
is, but it's these analogies and these metaphors and these stories like this feels like the
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most super charged thing. And so I really think emotionally I left illustration for a
little bit and I was diving into this like public speaking, live storytelling thing and
illustration just kind of became part of my job. And then it wasn't until I heard some
public speaker, uh, call one of their metaphors and illustration, they're like, Hey, I'm just
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going to give you this illustration. And I was like, they're the same thing. Like what's
going on? So I think that was the first like little bit. And then as I dove deeper into,
um, really like dream psychology and started to understand, I think, you know, looking
back, I'm like, man, there were definitely smart kids, smarter kids than me in high school
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that when we were reading like classic literature, like got symbolism in the way that I feel
like I'm only just figuring out like, and so right now I'm having this like rekindled
love affair with illustration where like, I really do my favorite definition of illustration
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is writing with pictures. And I really do feel that way. And I feel like that's what
I'm practicing is the art of finding the right symbols to illustrate, um, a point. And I,
yeah, I've just kind of, that's been one of the biggest evolutions as of late is that
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I have fallen back in love with illustration and it's in the power of symbolism. And, um,
and so yeah, I think always and I'll say this, I'll add this little bit because it kind of
gets back to what I think your original question was is when I started getting into picture
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books and wanting to move in that direction, which started probably as far back as 2012,
um, I was, you know, met with a lot of people telling me about story structure and all these
kind of things. And at first I wasn't interested. I think partially because I just thought I'll
never figure that out. Like that's not me. It's not, I don't get it. But then at the
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same time on a kind of spiritual journey, I was diving into Joseph Campbell and I didn't
see the connection between those two things. I didn't think that it had anything to do
with it. And then I read, um, here was here with a thousand faces, faces, which is his
book all about the hero's journey. And then I had heard about a more simplified version
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of that, which is called the writer's journey. And I read that, but I wasn't writing it,
I wasn't reading it as a writer or a storyteller. I was reading it as a kind of spiritual text
because it was like helping me understand my life a lot better. And so it wasn't until
I was like way far into that. And then finally got into picture books and I was doing the
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podcast and I was like, Oh, these are all the same thing that I'm doing. And so that's,
I feel like there is always per person. I do think like personal development, um, is
really often proceeds, creative development. And then sometimes creative development unlocks
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personal development. So I feel like they're, I feel like they're always kind of arm in
arm. Yeah, I love that that all these things are coming together perfectly for you at the
right time, at the right time, because you're going to be open and ready to receive that
information. Don't you? And yeah, you do. Talking about, um, being creative for work
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and then trying to sustain your creativity outside of that. That's certainly a common
thing that is talked about on this podcast. So you sort of pivoted more towards the public
speaking and things like that. But what are your other sort of go-tos when you just are
in a creative funk? If you're ever in a creative funk, I'm in a creative funk right now. I'm
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like deep in a creative funk. And I think, I don't, I think probably a million reasons
why that is. And I think that, you know, I'm pretty convinced that creative funks are,
I'm not saying you should just like lean into them and accept that you suck and just, you
know, whatever, roll over and take it. I'm not saying that, but I do think also they
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are part of the creative seasons. I think that there's a, there's a degree. And I heard,
uh, Liz Gilbert, the author of Eat, Pray, Love and Big Magic say that, um, you know,
the economy and just kind of the way that our world is set up, we kind of feel like
the only accept, acceptable trajectory is that, you know, line graph of the line going
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up and to the right forever. Whereas life, if you think even just like the seasons of
the year, that's not how it works. Like you're going to have like, you know, ups and downs
and winters and summers and sprint, you know, all that, like it's going to, it's going to
kind of take those trajectories. So I, I think sometimes when I just get a little bit burnout
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or something, um, I have a lot of like tricks and things that I can do and I'll, I'll maybe
get into that. But I feel like right now I'm in a creative funk that I've had to just say,
yeah, it's happening, man. I can't, there's not much I can do about it. It's not, it's
not like I don't have different things that are bringing me joy or that there aren't like
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creative breakthroughs that have come in this time. I just think I'm in a, at the start
of another cycle of creative output. And it's in this period of time, I think it's really
confusing. I think you just get into a very confusing state that, um, yeah, I don't, I
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don't know. I think maybe I've said this before too, like the first, the first piece
of getting found is admitting you're lost. Like when you're lost and you don't want to
admit it, usually just get more and more lost until you stop and you're like, Hey, I'm going
to ask for directions because I'm definitely lost. Like, so I think that's kind of where
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I'm at right now. I was like, I'm lost. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm in a weird place.
I can't find my way out of here. Um, but yeah, so I would say that is often the first thing,
but, uh, I, I also think like, um, one thing that has been really helpful is sometimes I'll
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get way off the map and I'll stop and think when was the last time I remember that curiosity
going on fire? Like when was that? And can I go return to that and see if there's anything
on, you know, unexplored for that? And that honestly, like that on several times, on several
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occasions have put me back on the path. Um, and so yeah, I would say when I'm creatively
blocked, that'll be the first thing that I do.
That's cool. I love, I love learning how people can get back on track and shake off the funk.
And for me, it's, um, the podcast is that, that I love talking to people about creativity
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and that helps me feel more creative. Uh, and your podcast, creative pep talk, I know
we've spoken about it a few times. Very cool, very interesting and some amazing guests on
there. Does that also help you like reinvigorate?
Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, I think, uh, I think so. About two thirds of the episodes
(27:29):
are me or just solo episodes and that's kind of been the core of the podcast. But then
I would say like the past few years, I've probably been as interested in that, if not
more interested in the, the interviews and conversations. Um, like you said, it gives
you a, maybe you said this in another episode that I was listening to, maybe you said it
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to me, I don't know, but, um, it gives you an excuse to, to strike up a conversation
with someone that you find interesting. And so that has been extremely valuable. And I
think that I've been able to mold it to my curiosity as well and figure out ways to kind
of, um, yeah, talk to a lot of people in different fields and different mediums and relate it
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back to creative practice. And, uh, and yeah, I would say, well, I mean, more than anything,
the creative, uh, the, the podcast is just my current creative practice. And I'm a really,
really big believer in the idea of having a practice and a discipline because what I
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make, you know, something like 40 some episodes a year, a year, and that ends up being 40 pieces
of episode art. And out of those pieces every year, I'm able to cobble together a calendar
that we release every year. And I would say I can find 12 of those 40 that are good pieces
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of work, but there's not a lot more than that. Like, you know, maybe 15, like that's, and
so that's a great indicator of like what's so great about a creative practice is that
through that quantity, you're able to play and make mistakes and make stuff that didn't work.
And, and if you make 40 things, 15 of them will probably be pretty cool or like you'll be into
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them, you know what I mean? So I think that more than anything, that's what the podcast is. It's
just a framework for having a habit and a practice and a discipline. Um, yeah.
Yeah, definitely having a bit of a routine is fantastic. What, what does your normal day look
like? If you've got so many things going on, definitely don't have a normal day. I'm trying to
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know, I think that, um, I mean, I have like, I have certain things that ground it. So I have this,
I don't, I don't know anybody that does this. So I just, this is just a weird thing about me,
but every day I take about an hour long bath. That's weird. I feel like it's weird. I don't,
I'm nobody does that. I don't know. But I could, like that's my grounding like that every day.
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And I mean pretty much every single day, I'll be, I'll take a bath for an hour and a half,
hour to an hour and a half. And that always starts with, always starts with.
Because imagine how wrinkly you are when you get out.
Yeah, pretty wrinkly. Um, but, uh, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what it is. I,
I wonder, I'm curious about a lot of different aspects of it. I think it's usually really hot
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bath. And from what I've read that kind of raises your like dopamine receptors and levels or whatever.
And, uh, that's a necessary thing for ADHD people. So I think that's part of it. My mom also took a
lot of baths. And, uh, you know, so I think that's probably part of it. And then another part of it,
maybe it's sensory deprivation where it's like, I can think clearer in, in water. I also love the
(31:05):
ocean, um, in hot tubs. Like I love water. Um, and, uh, and so I always start with reading. So I
always read something. I'm always reading a book and I, I'm pretty slow reader, but I'm always,
I'm reading every day. And, uh, then I'm usually writing. So I'm usually writing either the podcast
or journaling or writing about my dream or, you know, whatever, or picture book related stuff.
(31:31):
And so it's always a daily practice of that. Um, but then I also try to kind of,
before I start my day, I'll usually bring my kid to school, um, one of my three children, uh, to
school. And I try to, I really desperately try to do the thing that I have to do that day first.
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That is the number one thing, but that could be a whole bunch of different things because,
like you said, I have a lot of different parts, moving parts. So that could be recording a podcast
that could be working on picture book thing that could be doing email that could be doing
client stuff could be planning a talk. And so all of those things kind of change. But I also,
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the other piece that, um, stays the same every week is that I, I have Monday and Tuesday and then
Wednesday morning and Thursday morning, all as like deep work time. And so I try to not schedule
calls and meetings on Monday, Tuesday, um, Wednesday morning or Thursday morning.
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And that's, I can't always do that. Sometimes you have to schedule stuff in there, but that
blocking out time is probably the most essential thing to getting any creative work done. So
yeah, those things don't change, but what I do in those times always changes.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like a loose structure of a framework with flexibility in there. Cause I
(33:10):
think if you get, if you're hemmed in too tight, it's not going to work for you. And then as soon
as you realize you can break it, it's, it's gone. Oh yeah. Very true. And that's why with my like,
agent, I'm like, I put those things in the calendar and anytime anything would come up,
it would, I would just have to be really hardcore about like, Hey, it's Monday and Tuesday, man.
(33:34):
I'm not, I can't do that. I'm not going to do like, and I had, I had to hold him to it. I had to hold
me to it. I hold my, my wife to it. And we all had to just like get on board. Like that's what
we're doing in these times. And you know, it's like I said, it's not, it's not easy, but that,
that was such a, that was a massive shift for me because what ends up happening is,
(33:56):
and I think all of the research I've heard around deep work, like Cal Newport stuff, and then all
the, all the things that a lot of people kind of have explored this with creative work, you can't
dip in and out of it. You have to have a good chunk. You know, and that's why, you know, even
when I had part-time jobs or more than that, even what, what would work well is either setting it
(34:23):
aside 90 minutes at the beginning of the day, where there's a good chunk where I'm doing nothing,
but my creative work or using that time to, to set myself up for a larger chunk of time on,
like Saturday. So yeah, that, I think that that deep work obsession has been helpful.
(34:45):
Nice. Well, I'm glad that it's working for you. And tell me what is next for you. You've got,
you're working on picture books, you're still doing your illustrations, got the podcast,
you're doing a lot of public speaking from what I can see. What's the future look like for you?
Hopefully sleeping, stuff like that. That's a family time. Yeah, family time. Yeah, video games,
(35:11):
more video games, all that. But also, I'm doing a project that I don't fully know exactly how it's
going to manifest. And it's, it's a little bit more intentionally about my mom and ADHD and
(35:31):
positive psychology. And so I've done some like interviews for that that I, I think would work
on the podcast, but I'm not sure if they're what the should be on the podcast. And then also,
written a lot of stories around that. So I don't know if that's going to be,
I could see it being kind of like a one person show kind of thing, but I'm not positive about that.
(35:57):
Could be a podcast series, could be its own podcast. But I've been working on that. I mean,
I've been working on stories around that for years and years and years. And then for the past
two years, that's been something that's like really been at the forefront of my mind. And I've been
kind of, you know, secretly hammering away at it. And so I think something in that vein is going to be
(36:24):
a focus at the start of the year, next year.
Oh, that is sufficiently intriguing.
And I also just really enjoy the fact that you're noodling away with something without having a
super clear idea of where it's going to go. You're just kind of following the process.
(36:46):
Yeah, you know, and that was kind of what I was getting at early on about like the weird
funk or fog or whatever that I'm in. I feel like I'm, when back in like 2011, I did a project
which was a daily character drawing project that turned into the book I released this year
called Invisible Things that I co-created with my wife, Sophie Miller. And that project in 2011
(37:13):
was like that where I was like, I don't know what this is. And it was so uncomfortable. Like that
is a difficult place to be in where you're like, I'm making this thing. No idea what it's for.
Nobody, I don't think anybody wants this. I don't know what it is. Like that's a hard thing to do.
And I'm trying to just trust that again, because I feel like I'm in a similar place.
(37:35):
And it's been really difficult. But I have seen the trusting that has paid off and been a good
practice, even if it's just for yourself personally. I think that that's true.
Guys, trust the process. It's worked for you. It will work again. And I am so excited to see
(38:00):
what that manifests to be at some point in the future. But thank you so much for coming on today
and having a chat with me. I feel like I could talk to you for a lot longer, but I will let you go.
Thanks for having me. And hopefully we can do it again someday.
Yeah, definitely. And I will make sure that we keep everyone updated with all the things that
(38:26):
you're doing. But I also want to say thanks to everyone who has tuned in today to Creativity
Uncovered. I really hope that this episode has inspired you. Suddenly, I've got a lot of takeaways
from it. And then I hope that it helps you summon your creativity the next time that you need it.
Awesome. Thank you.
[Music]
(39:13):
If you've made it this far, a huge thank you for your support and tuning into today's episode.
Creativity (39:18):
Uncovered has been lovingly recorded on the land of the Kabi Kabi people.
And we pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging. This podcast has been produced by
my amazing team here at Crisp Communications. And the music you just heard was composed by James
(39:38):
Gatling. If you liked this episode, please do share it around and help us on our mission to
unlock more creativity in this world. You can also hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any new
episode releases.
Uncovered. My name is Abi Gatling and I am on a journey
(00:11):
to uncover how everyday people find inspiration, get inventive and open their imagination.
Basically, I want to find out how people find creative solutions and then how they use them
at home, work, play and everything in between. And my goal for this podcast is that by the
(00:32):
end of it, you'll be armed with a whole suite of tried and tested ways to someone creativity
the next time that you need it.
Now today, oh my gosh, I am so excited to be speaking with Andy J. Pizza. Andy is a hugely
accomplished illustrator and podcaster and you may recognize him as his works on adverts
(00:59):
for Amazon, Nickelodeon, YouTube. I'm pretty sure he's even designed a Glastonbury post
up which is pretty epic. So we're definitely in the presence of greatness today. Welcome
Andy.
Okay, I got to live up to a lot there. I'll try. Yeah, I did do did the Glastonbury 2015
(01:22):
Guardian Guide. That was one of the best projects. I'm glad you brought that up.
So good. I mean, the breadth of your work is so cool. I was just having another little
sneaky peek of your website just before. I've been like, oh my gosh, there are so many exciting
projects. I want to dive into all of them. But for context, obviously you can tell I'm
(01:46):
fangirling a little bit right now. But Andy, I wanted to reach out to you because I kind
of need to thank you partially for helping me start this podcast because last year I
was actually on a long haul to the US and I came across this creative series you did
about finding your creative style. And I just binge watched the entire thing. It was fantastic.
(02:10):
And I think that it helped click something in my brain. And so throughout that entire
trip, it was things were wearing away. And by the end of it, I was like, I'm making this
podcast. So thank you, firstly. And I also want to go, what, how did you get into that
series? How did that come about?
Did that was that on the podcast or was that a class?
(02:33):
It was one of your masterclasses. Yeah.
Okay. Yeah, cool. Did you see it on a plane?
I did.
Okay.
That's just a funny, weird thing that I didn't know was I did a class with Skillshare and
they put it on planes. So it's one of the airlines has this on there, which is very bizarre,
very weird. But yeah, I did that style class because I think when I first started as an
(03:02):
illustrator, you know, I didn't I went to school and I was like, all my favorite illustrators
have a style. I need to spend my time at school finding a style. It seems like pretty important.
And I think when I expressed this to my teachers, I was just kind of met with like I had some
great teachers, but early on, I felt like when I would say I need to find my style, their
(03:26):
vibe back would be the kind of overly mystical mindset that you sometimes find in the creative
world. And it was kind of like, find your style. Your style finds you if you're lucky.
And I'm like, dude, I'm paying you. I can't. This isn't luck. Like I got to figure this
out, man. And so I, you know, I think the first few years, I was so panicked about what
(03:50):
to do because this is what I chose to do as a job that I was just making work that was
trendy. And I was authentically into it. And I still like that stuff that I made, but
it wasn't, it wasn't anything deeper than this is kind of like the trends of the, of
the moment. And I'm trying to put my spin on it, but it's not doesn't, it's not speaking
(04:12):
to why I'm wanted to make creative work. And I don't feel like I'm putting myself in it.
And so I really felt like I was just stumbling through the dark for several years, trying
to figure out who am I, like, and how do you put that into a drawing? And so I was, I didn't
(04:37):
know if I was making any progress. And then eventually a handful of things clicked. And
I just wanted to kind of simplify those ideas into a few step by step things that aren't
magic. But I do think if I would have had that, it would have saved me years. And so
(05:00):
that's kind of how I got into it. And then as I also, as I developed in my creative practice
and have gone along and kind of dove into depth psychology and, you know, stuff like
that, I've realized that some of the stuff that I was doing, there's like a real precedent.
(05:21):
Whether it's like young young in psychology or active imagination or kind of psychoanalytic
way of thinking about symbolism and stuff like that. And so yeah, the further I go, the
more convinced I am that there are pretty practical things that you can do to help project your
(05:42):
inner world onto a page in a way that is authentic. So I think that that is kind of where where
it came from.
Oh, that's so cool. I love the fact that there's so much depth to your illustrations that it's
not just that it looks snazzy on a piece of paper or on a big mural or whatever you're
(06:03):
doing at the time. It's actually thought that goes into it and research and stuff. But how
do we actually jump into that from going, Oh, this looks nice to actually going, I want
to find out why this looks nice. Or why does this, why is this meaningful?
Yeah, I'm, you know, I think that that is a great question. I think it starts with believing
(06:28):
that there's treasure there. Like, you're never going to dig in if you don't think there's
treasure in there, right? Like you got to you got to have some belief. And I find that
that's one of the early hurdles that a lot of creators struggle with. And I really struggled
with is I started gathering all of this inspiration and what now I've heard called in the psychology
(06:50):
world, um, uh, psychically charged images. So like symbols that were reoccurring in,
in my favorite things. And at first I just kind of felt like, Oh, why do you like these?
Because they're cool. Like that was it. Like, cause it's cool. And I think that, um, yeah,
the hurdle that the obstacle that I think is easy to trip up on is you don't believe
(07:16):
that you are deep as a person. You don't believe that you have any other layers. You don't
believe that the reason these things are resonating goes beyond like you're just trying to be
cool or, you know, whatever. And so I think that, yeah, that, I think that's the real first
step is believe gathering this stuff, having the faith that there is something worth cultivating
(07:43):
here. There is something worth these connections actually go beyond just trying to seem fashionable
or cool or whatever. Um, and you know, having the faith to dig into them and reflect on
them because that's the thing I, whenever I've like taught or worked with other creators,
(08:04):
that's the first stumbling block is that is getting past. Why do you like this? Cause
it's cool. I don't know. Like you, I think you have to go beyond that. And the same,
it's kind of the same thing you see in like dream interpretation. And I think dream interpretation
is, um, there's a lot of opinions on this, especially, you know, experts in the field
(08:26):
researchers feel like the jury's really out on what is a dream? Is it, is it totally random?
Is it not totally random? I think for me personally, where I can set up camp, I'm endlessly fascinated
with dreams. Um, and there's our images of our inner world. So that's really rich as
a, as a creator, as an illustrator or whatever. Um, that's like all imagery that you kind
(08:48):
of own. So like, you know, that's, that's good stuff to like work from. But, um, I feel
like even though I don't really know what dreams are exactly, what I do feel, I feel
certain of is that they're kind of like your deep self writing you a poem about how you're
(09:08):
feeling. So it might not be more than that, but it's, it is always emotionally charged.
And those emotions are always showing up as pictures. And in the most kind of basic way,
it's that is symbolism. That's metaphor. And, uh, and it, and I'm talking about that
because in the same way, it's easy to wake up from a dream and just say, well, it doesn't
(09:30):
mean anything. It's just random stuff bubbling up. Um, you know, but in that same way that
with your own taste and interests, you can say, Oh, maybe there's something beyond this
just being cool and trust that there's some, it's connected to something in inside of you.
Um, is that an answer? I don't even remember what you asked anymore, but it sounded good.
(10:00):
So I'm happy with that. I think it's interesting that you mentioned the dream thing because
I just only a couple of weeks ago interviewed someone who helps people remember their dreams
better because she believes that it is actually your deep subconscious. Your brain is ticking
away with your awake or not. And if you can remember as much as your dreams as you can,
(10:22):
you can choose to do with it as you will. You can choose to be inspired for your creativity
or might help you solve this problem that you've been trying to work on. Uh, so I'll
definitely flick you that episode.
Cool. That's awesome.
I love the fact that, um, your creativity is so deeply, uh, grounded in curiosity and
(10:42):
following that, you know, pulling that thread and seeing where it goes. Do you think that
that is something that everyone needs to have to be a creative?
Yeah, I think, I think so. I think you do. I mean, I think you have to be able to, uh,
give yourself permission to be curious and let that kind of, I think especially as someone
(11:07):
with ADHD, I feel like I, I realized like kind of watching my mom struggle with, um,
similar tendencies. I think I knew in a way that I'm not in control of, I'm not in, I'm
not completely in control of what I'm curious about. So I think that there is a way it's
(11:29):
kind of curious George, like you just have to follow him. You can't like, you can try
to box it in, but it's going to like find a way out and find it. And so I think even
from when I, and it's pretty difficult to like build your life around that because it
is out of control. It's not, I heard someone today actually talking about how, um, on Twitter
(11:53):
talking about how, uh, they don't like the idea of ADHD being a superpower. And I totally
relate to what they're saying 100%. And I had the, I had a thought then like a couple
of tweets down and replies, someone said the same thing, which it's like a superpower that
you can't control. So it's like you have laser eyes and you, but you can't turn them off.
(12:16):
You don't get to tell them when they turn on, like, because you don't get to control your
curiosity and your hyper focus. It's kind of out, out of your control. And I think that,
um, yeah, I think creativity is about is, is at least partially about letting that curiosity
run wild. Um, and kind of just following it where the life is, but the other piece to
(12:40):
it is, is being curious about yourself. And I think one of my kind of go to core values
as a creator is the idea that, you know, art is self-expression and you're never going
to love the work that you make. You're never going to love that self-expression. If you
(13:03):
hate the thing, it's an expression of, which is yourself. So you have to be curious about
yourself. You have to love yourself if you're ever going to love your work. And I think
that for me, that was another big breakthrough for style was, um, I think I had a big shift
(13:23):
in my mid twenties from a real negative psychology to what, um, uh, is it to a positive psychology,
which is an actual, it's not toxic positivity. It's none of that. It's, it's a positive
psychology meaning rather than just saying, here's what's wrong with you and broken. It
needs to, you know, these are your disorders. Um, positive psychology is this massive movement
(13:49):
around believing that you're, you're maybe ultimately a good thing. And when you do feel
that way, you can be really curious because you can open up those doors because you think,
well, even if it looks scary from the outside, maybe there's a positive reason why this feature
or behavior developed. And I think, I think more than anything in terms of art, that self
(14:16):
curiosity is, is really key.
Hmm. So if your stuff is really this personal expression, do you ever feel really exposed
having it out over the world to see?
Yeah, I do. I do feel that way. I think that, um, I think that I have luckily from pretty
(14:41):
early on felt the need to create boundaries around certain aspects. Um, there's, there's
certain areas like I mentioned my mom earlier, that's a thing that I have been really open
about my relationship to my mom and that, how that relates to my relationship with being
(15:01):
someone who's ADHD. Um, you know, those are things that I've been extremely open about.
And, but there are a lot of other things that I don't, like I try pretty, pretty much to
never talk explicitly about my kids, um, their names, their likeness, like I try not to get
(15:22):
into any of that. Um, there are certain aspects of my story that I don't share because I don't
really feel like they're public, you know, they're not related to, um, my, yeah, I don't
need to be explicit about every aspect of that. But even those things show up in the
work, um, in, in, uh, in a way that might just be symbolic. So I think that, um, yeah,
(15:50):
I do sometimes feel that way. I do, you know, the thing that I probably feel most vulnerable
about is for instance, you know, having a podcast for nine years, there are things looking
back on that when I think about my position on something or how I showed up in that particular
episode, I always know that I was being authentic. Like it's very rare that I wasn't being authentic.
(16:18):
But so I wasn't ever lying, but I might disagree with myself now. So like looking back, that's
kind of the most vulnerable I feel is like, I wish I could just clarify things or go,
you know, uh, disagree with myself or throw off things that I used to hold dearly and
(16:38):
or, and I just feel like, oh, I got those things wrong. And I wish I hadn't said that.
But that's, I think that that's the nature of having a public art practice too. Um,
I'm sure lots of musicians feel like that about songs they wrote or whatever.
Oh, absolutely. And I mean, and it's such a human thing to evolve and you change your
(16:59):
views, you change your viewpoints and you learn more and you can't go back and apologize
for everything. You have a retraction for every episode or something like that. So do
you. So if it, if it is such a public life and there are some things that you don't want
(17:19):
to necessarily share with the whole wide world, do you ever make art that is just for yourself
and for your family to consume? Yeah, I mean, I don't, being a, I mean, this is a common
complaint about the, what happens when you make your passion, your job is that you don't
(17:40):
have as much left for yourself and, and it kind of changes the nature of this thing that
you love because now it's an obligation. So there definitely is that aspect of it. However,
I think over the past few years, especially, um, it's, and it's been kind of intermittent,
but I have done more like journaling and, uh, you know, writing out and sometimes drawing
(18:08):
my dreams and stuff of that nature. So there are that, that would be probably the most
that, that would probably fall into that bucket more than anything else of like, um, I've
become increasingly interested in, yeah, dreams as a personal journaling practice. And so,
(18:30):
and that stuff sometimes bleeds out into my professional practice, but that's probably
the most personal stuff that I do. Yeah. If you're doing a lot of this reflective stuff
and diving deep into your understanding of your art, is your art evolving with that as
well? Because of that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yes, I think that, uh, I've been on a weird
(18:55):
little bit of a hero's journey with illustration over the past 10 years in a way because, um,
I, when I started the podcast nine years ago, that was on the back of a talk that I did
and I had like really had this incredible experience telling stories on stage, just with
(19:16):
this little local talk that I did. And, uh, and I wanted to turn that into a bigger part
of my practice. And I got so into it that I was like, I like this more than I like illustration.
And I had already built an illustration practice. Um, and I was like, I don't know what it
is, but it's these analogies and these metaphors and these stories like this feels like the
(19:38):
most super charged thing. And so I really think emotionally I left illustration for a
little bit and I was diving into this like public speaking, live storytelling thing and
illustration just kind of became part of my job. And then it wasn't until I heard some
public speaker, uh, call one of their metaphors and illustration, they're like, Hey, I'm just
(20:00):
going to give you this illustration. And I was like, they're the same thing. Like what's
going on? So I think that was the first like little bit. And then as I dove deeper into,
um, really like dream psychology and started to understand, I think, you know, looking
back, I'm like, man, there were definitely smart kids, smarter kids than me in high school
(20:27):
that when we were reading like classic literature, like got symbolism in the way that I feel
like I'm only just figuring out like, and so right now I'm having this like rekindled
love affair with illustration where like, I really do my favorite definition of illustration
(20:47):
is writing with pictures. And I really do feel that way. And I feel like that's what
I'm practicing is the art of finding the right symbols to illustrate, um, a point. And I,
yeah, I've just kind of, that's been one of the biggest evolutions as of late is that
(21:12):
I have fallen back in love with illustration and it's in the power of symbolism. And, um,
and so yeah, I think always and I'll say this, I'll add this little bit because it kind of
gets back to what I think your original question was is when I started getting into picture
(21:32):
books and wanting to move in that direction, which started probably as far back as 2012,
um, I was, you know, met with a lot of people telling me about story structure and all these
kind of things. And at first I wasn't interested. I think partially because I just thought I'll
never figure that out. Like that's not me. It's not, I don't get it. But then at the
(21:54):
same time on a kind of spiritual journey, I was diving into Joseph Campbell and I didn't
see the connection between those two things. I didn't think that it had anything to do
with it. And then I read, um, here was here with a thousand faces, faces, which is his
book all about the hero's journey. And then I had heard about a more simplified version
(22:14):
of that, which is called the writer's journey. And I read that, but I wasn't writing it,
I wasn't reading it as a writer or a storyteller. I was reading it as a kind of spiritual text
because it was like helping me understand my life a lot better. And so it wasn't until
I was like way far into that. And then finally got into picture books and I was doing the
(22:35):
podcast and I was like, Oh, these are all the same thing that I'm doing. And so that's,
I feel like there is always per person. I do think like personal development, um, is
really often proceeds, creative development. And then sometimes creative development unlocks
(22:56):
personal development. So I feel like they're, I feel like they're always kind of arm in
arm. Yeah, I love that that all these things are coming together perfectly for you at the
right time, at the right time, because you're going to be open and ready to receive that
information. Don't you? And yeah, you do. Talking about, um, being creative for work
(23:21):
and then trying to sustain your creativity outside of that. That's certainly a common
thing that is talked about on this podcast. So you sort of pivoted more towards the public
speaking and things like that. But what are your other sort of go-tos when you just are
in a creative funk? If you're ever in a creative funk, I'm in a creative funk right now. I'm
(23:42):
like deep in a creative funk. And I think, I don't, I think probably a million reasons
why that is. And I think that, you know, I'm pretty convinced that creative funks are,
I'm not saying you should just like lean into them and accept that you suck and just, you
know, whatever, roll over and take it. I'm not saying that, but I do think also they
(24:04):
are part of the creative seasons. I think that there's a, there's a degree. And I heard,
uh, Liz Gilbert, the author of Eat, Pray, Love and Big Magic say that, um, you know,
the economy and just kind of the way that our world is set up, we kind of feel like
the only accept, acceptable trajectory is that, you know, line graph of the line going
(24:28):
up and to the right forever. Whereas life, if you think even just like the seasons of
the year, that's not how it works. Like you're going to have like, you know, ups and downs
and winters and summers and sprint, you know, all that, like it's going to, it's going to
kind of take those trajectories. So I, I think sometimes when I just get a little bit burnout
(24:48):
or something, um, I have a lot of like tricks and things that I can do and I'll, I'll maybe
get into that. But I feel like right now I'm in a creative funk that I've had to just say,
yeah, it's happening, man. I can't, there's not much I can do about it. It's not, it's
not like I don't have different things that are bringing me joy or that there aren't like
(25:14):
creative breakthroughs that have come in this time. I just think I'm in a, at the start
of another cycle of creative output. And it's in this period of time, I think it's really
confusing. I think you just get into a very confusing state that, um, yeah, I don't, I
(25:35):
don't know. I think maybe I've said this before too, like the first, the first piece
of getting found is admitting you're lost. Like when you're lost and you don't want to
admit it, usually just get more and more lost until you stop and you're like, Hey, I'm going
to ask for directions because I'm definitely lost. Like, so I think that's kind of where
(25:55):
I'm at right now. I was like, I'm lost. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm in a weird place.
I can't find my way out of here. Um, but yeah, so I would say that is often the first thing,
but, uh, I, I also think like, um, one thing that has been really helpful is sometimes I'll
(26:17):
get way off the map and I'll stop and think when was the last time I remember that curiosity
going on fire? Like when was that? And can I go return to that and see if there's anything
on, you know, unexplored for that? And that honestly, like that on several times, on several
(26:44):
occasions have put me back on the path. Um, and so yeah, I would say when I'm creatively
blocked, that'll be the first thing that I do.
That's cool. I love, I love learning how people can get back on track and shake off the funk.
And for me, it's, um, the podcast is that, that I love talking to people about creativity
(27:06):
and that helps me feel more creative. Uh, and your podcast, creative pep talk, I know
we've spoken about it a few times. Very cool, very interesting and some amazing guests on
there. Does that also help you like reinvigorate?
Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, I think, uh, I think so. About two thirds of the episodes
(27:29):
are me or just solo episodes and that's kind of been the core of the podcast. But then
I would say like the past few years, I've probably been as interested in that, if not
more interested in the, the interviews and conversations. Um, like you said, it gives
you a, maybe you said this in another episode that I was listening to, maybe you said it
(27:49):
to me, I don't know, but, um, it gives you an excuse to, to strike up a conversation
with someone that you find interesting. And so that has been extremely valuable. And I
think that I've been able to mold it to my curiosity as well and figure out ways to kind
of, um, yeah, talk to a lot of people in different fields and different mediums and relate it
(28:17):
back to creative practice. And, uh, and yeah, I would say, well, I mean, more than anything,
the creative, uh, the, the podcast is just my current creative practice. And I'm a really,
really big believer in the idea of having a practice and a discipline because what I
(28:41):
make, you know, something like 40 some episodes a year, a year, and that ends up being 40 pieces
of episode art. And out of those pieces every year, I'm able to cobble together a calendar
that we release every year. And I would say I can find 12 of those 40 that are good pieces
(29:04):
of work, but there's not a lot more than that. Like, you know, maybe 15, like that's, and
so that's a great indicator of like what's so great about a creative practice is that
through that quantity, you're able to play and make mistakes and make stuff that didn't work.
And, and if you make 40 things, 15 of them will probably be pretty cool or like you'll be into
(29:30):
them, you know what I mean? So I think that more than anything, that's what the podcast is. It's
just a framework for having a habit and a practice and a discipline. Um, yeah.
Yeah, definitely having a bit of a routine is fantastic. What, what does your normal day look
like? If you've got so many things going on, definitely don't have a normal day. I'm trying to
(29:53):
know, I think that, um, I mean, I have like, I have certain things that ground it. So I have this,
I don't, I don't know anybody that does this. So I just, this is just a weird thing about me,
but every day I take about an hour long bath. That's weird. I feel like it's weird. I don't,
I'm nobody does that. I don't know. But I could, like that's my grounding like that every day.
(30:20):
And I mean pretty much every single day, I'll be, I'll take a bath for an hour and a half,
hour to an hour and a half. And that always starts with, always starts with.
Because imagine how wrinkly you are when you get out.
Yeah, pretty wrinkly. Um, but, uh, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what it is. I,
I wonder, I'm curious about a lot of different aspects of it. I think it's usually really hot
(30:42):
bath. And from what I've read that kind of raises your like dopamine receptors and levels or whatever.
And, uh, that's a necessary thing for ADHD people. So I think that's part of it. My mom also took a
lot of baths. And, uh, you know, so I think that's probably part of it. And then another part of it,
maybe it's sensory deprivation where it's like, I can think clearer in, in water. I also love the
(31:05):
ocean, um, in hot tubs. Like I love water. Um, and, uh, and so I always start with reading. So I
always read something. I'm always reading a book and I, I'm pretty slow reader, but I'm always,
I'm reading every day. And, uh, then I'm usually writing. So I'm usually writing either the podcast
or journaling or writing about my dream or, you know, whatever, or picture book related stuff.
(31:31):
And so it's always a daily practice of that. Um, but then I also try to kind of,
before I start my day, I'll usually bring my kid to school, um, one of my three children, uh, to
school. And I try to, I really desperately try to do the thing that I have to do that day first.
(31:55):
That is the number one thing, but that could be a whole bunch of different things because,
like you said, I have a lot of different parts, moving parts. So that could be recording a podcast
that could be working on picture book thing that could be doing email that could be doing
client stuff could be planning a talk. And so all of those things kind of change. But I also,
(32:17):
the other piece that, um, stays the same every week is that I, I have Monday and Tuesday and then
Wednesday morning and Thursday morning, all as like deep work time. And so I try to not schedule
calls and meetings on Monday, Tuesday, um, Wednesday morning or Thursday morning.
(32:44):
And that's, I can't always do that. Sometimes you have to schedule stuff in there, but that
blocking out time is probably the most essential thing to getting any creative work done. So
yeah, those things don't change, but what I do in those times always changes.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like a loose structure of a framework with flexibility in there. Cause I
(33:10):
think if you get, if you're hemmed in too tight, it's not going to work for you. And then as soon
as you realize you can break it, it's, it's gone. Oh yeah. Very true. And that's why with my like,
agent, I'm like, I put those things in the calendar and anytime anything would come up,
it would, I would just have to be really hardcore about like, Hey, it's Monday and Tuesday, man.
(33:34):
I'm not, I can't do that. I'm not going to do like, and I had, I had to hold him to it. I had to hold
me to it. I hold my, my wife to it. And we all had to just like get on board. Like that's what
we're doing in these times. And you know, it's like I said, it's not, it's not easy, but that,
that was such a, that was a massive shift for me because what ends up happening is,
(33:56):
and I think all of the research I've heard around deep work, like Cal Newport stuff, and then all
the, all the things that a lot of people kind of have explored this with creative work, you can't
dip in and out of it. You have to have a good chunk. You know, and that's why, you know, even
when I had part-time jobs or more than that, even what, what would work well is either setting it
(34:23):
aside 90 minutes at the beginning of the day, where there's a good chunk where I'm doing nothing,
but my creative work or using that time to, to set myself up for a larger chunk of time on,
like Saturday. So yeah, that, I think that that deep work obsession has been helpful.
(34:45):
Nice. Well, I'm glad that it's working for you. And tell me what is next for you. You've got,
you're working on picture books, you're still doing your illustrations, got the podcast,
you're doing a lot of public speaking from what I can see. What's the future look like for you?
Hopefully sleeping, stuff like that. That's a family time. Yeah, family time. Yeah, video games,
(35:11):
more video games, all that. But also, I'm doing a project that I don't fully know exactly how it's
going to manifest. And it's, it's a little bit more intentionally about my mom and ADHD and
(35:31):
positive psychology. And so I've done some like interviews for that that I, I think would work
on the podcast, but I'm not sure if they're what the should be on the podcast. And then also,
written a lot of stories around that. So I don't know if that's going to be,
I could see it being kind of like a one person show kind of thing, but I'm not positive about that.
(35:57):
Could be a podcast series, could be its own podcast. But I've been working on that. I mean,
I've been working on stories around that for years and years and years. And then for the past
two years, that's been something that's like really been at the forefront of my mind. And I've been
kind of, you know, secretly hammering away at it. And so I think something in that vein is going to be
(36:24):
a focus at the start of the year, next year.
Oh, that is sufficiently intriguing.
And I also just really enjoy the fact that you're noodling away with something without having a
super clear idea of where it's going to go. You're just kind of following the process.
(36:46):
Yeah, you know, and that was kind of what I was getting at early on about like the weird
funk or fog or whatever that I'm in. I feel like I'm, when back in like 2011, I did a project
which was a daily character drawing project that turned into the book I released this year
called Invisible Things that I co-created with my wife, Sophie Miller. And that project in 2011
(37:13):
was like that where I was like, I don't know what this is. And it was so uncomfortable. Like that
is a difficult place to be in where you're like, I'm making this thing. No idea what it's for.
Nobody, I don't think anybody wants this. I don't know what it is. Like that's a hard thing to do.
And I'm trying to just trust that again, because I feel like I'm in a similar place.
(37:35):
And it's been really difficult. But I have seen the trusting that has paid off and been a good
practice, even if it's just for yourself personally. I think that that's true.
Guys, trust the process. It's worked for you. It will work again. And I am so excited to see
(38:00):
what that manifests to be at some point in the future. But thank you so much for coming on today
and having a chat with me. I feel like I could talk to you for a lot longer, but I will let you go.
Thanks for having me. And hopefully we can do it again someday.
Yeah, definitely. And I will make sure that we keep everyone updated with all the things that
(38:26):
you're doing. But I also want to say thanks to everyone who has tuned in today to Creativity
Uncovered. I really hope that this episode has inspired you. Suddenly, I've got a lot of takeaways
from it. And then I hope that it helps you summon your creativity the next time that you need it.
Awesome. Thank you.
[Music]
(39:13):
If you've made it this far, a huge thank you for your support and tuning into today's episode.
Creativity (39:18):
Uncovered has been lovingly recorded on the land of the Kabi Kabi people.
And we pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging. This podcast has been produced by
my amazing team here at Crisp Communications. And the music you just heard was composed by James
(39:38):
Gatling. If you liked this episode, please do share it around and help us on our mission to
unlock more creativity in this world. You can also hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any new
episode releases.
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