April 1, 2024 • 40 mins
With a career spanning 40+ years, Steve Griggs has certainly refined his creative process. As New York’s premier landscape designer, Steve flexes his creativity and imagination every day to deliver beautiful, functional and livable spaces for his clients.
Steve joins me on Creativity: Uncovered to share more about his process and how he remains inspired after nearly half a decade in the field.
Tune in to hear about:
- How Steve got into landscape design
- Why he calls himself a landscape artist
- His process for bringing a client’s vision to life
- Some tips for getting (and remaining) on the same page with your clients
- Why he emphasises lifestyle design
- How he stays motivated and creatively inspired
- How his process has evolved throughout his career
Happy listening!
xo Abi
P.S. For more information about this episode and our guest, head to: www.crispcomms.co/podcast-episodes/landscape-artistry-lifestyle-design
Creativity: Uncovered is lovingly edited by the team at Crisp Communications.
Creativity: Uncovered is a registered Australian Trade Mark.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
(upbeat music)
(00:02):
So I've been planning some renovations
at my house recently.
And I tell you, so much effort goes into designing a space
that is both functional and beautiful
and you just want to use every day.
So in this episode of Creativity (00:22):
Uncovered,
I'm gonna be speaking with someone
who does this day in and day out.
(upbeat music)
So please join me, Abi Gatling,
on my journey to uncover how everyday people
find inspiration, get invented, and open their imagination.
Basically through this podcast,
(00:42):
I'm gonna find out how people find creative solutions
that come home and work, play, and everything in between.
And my goal for this podcast is that by the end of it,
you'll be on to the whole suite of tried and tested ways
to some creativity the next time that you need it.
(upbeat music)
Now today, I'm super excited to be speaking with Steve Griggs,
(01:06):
who is New York's premier landscape designer,
all about his creative process.
Welcome, Steve.
- Glad to be here.
I'm in New York and it's Friday morning where you are.
This is a great time to do this podcast
because I'm currently doing a renovation inside my house.
And if my wife shows me one more shade of gray,
(01:26):
I'm gonna scream.
I'm not kidding.
It's like there's 40 shades of gray
and they all look the same.
So this is gonna be very good with,
'cause I'm in the middle of it.
Kitchen floors, painting, I'm living it.
I'm living it.
- That's what I have to look forward to, right?
- You know what?
(01:47):
I keep telling myself,
it's gonna be worth it when it's all done.
Like even when you do an outdoor project,
it's always worse before it gets better.
So this is super exciting here, 'cause I'm living it.
- Now, Steve, you actually don't do the interior of design.
You're a landscape designer,
which means you work in outdoor spaces.
(02:08):
Tell me, how did you actually get into that
in the first place?
Because you're from New York.
Most people don't necessarily think
outside green spaces with New York.
Tell me about that.
- That's a very good question,
'cause I went to school down in Mississippi
and every time they asked me,
they wanted to know if I have grass where I live, right?
So I live outside the city in the suburbs
(02:29):
where there's houses and grass and trees and all that.
I basically just like being outside and working outside.
And when I took the high school aptitude test,
I checked all the boxes
that I'm not wanting to be sitting behind a desk all day.
So there you have it.
40 years later, I'm still here.
- That's good.
Okay, so I've just made a faux park.
(02:51):
Every time people talk to me about living in Australia,
they're like, "Do you ride a kangaroo to school?"
- Yeah, same thing.
- On this lake, everywhere.
Same thing, New York.
- Same thing.
I'm in the concrete jungle.
They call this concrete jungle.
- Yeah.
It's all the movies we watch, I think, that's the issue.
- That's right.
I mean, crocodile dundee, right?
That's the only thing I know.
(03:12):
- So yeah, so landscape design, wonderful thing.
Tell me, what does the perfect space look like?
What are the elements that need to be ticked off
in your eyes to have a good space?
- So basically, when you're designing an outdoor space,
I try to explain to people
because people seem to understand the interior
(03:33):
better than the exterior.
So when I try to explain the exterior,
I try to picture them to picture the outdoor room, right?
So inside the room, you have carpet and flooring.
Outside, you have patios or grass.
Same thing with the walls.
It could be a fence, it could be tall hedges.
And then same with like a ceiling,
(03:54):
it could be a canopy, it could be a pergola overhead.
Lighting could be a lamp, a landscape lamp.
So it's the same kind of elements.
When I phrase it that way,
they kind of understand it a little bit better
because typically the outdoors is not as much,
the homeowners don't really use the outdoors,
do the outdoor spaces as much as they renovate
(04:14):
the indoor spaces.
So when I create it to the outside,
they kind of connect the dots.
So it makes a lot of sense.
- Absolutely, that makes perfect sense in my mind.
You know, where I am here in Australia,
it's super hot, we're subtropical.
Our outdoor space is just an extension of our home.
We consider it to be another room.
So the way you describe that is perfect for me.
(04:38):
But so you call yourself a landscape artist.
I've read that in a few articles about you.
Tell me, tell me what is the creativity
that's needed in this line of work?
- So I don't really like the word landscape architect
because people would say, oh, I need my grass cut, right?
(04:58):
They don't really understand what a landscape architect
slash designer is as opposed to just a landscaper.
So I said, well, let's call it a landscape artist
because typically when I go to a job site,
I have to see the site,
I have to put, we call it boots on the ground
because you have to walk the site
and get a sense of what the space feels like
as opposed to just looking at it on a picture
(05:19):
or a computer screen.
You may see a focal point, like a rock outcrop,
a nice vista or view of water or a mountain.
You wanna try to incorporate all that.
So you really need to walk the space with the client
and try to get inside their head
to see what the space should feel like when it's all done.
- Oh yes, what it should feel like.
(05:41):
That's great.
So what are the feelings that you generally want to get
from an outdoor space like that?
- Just like anybody else.
It's like you wanna get a sense of security.
It's your own space.
Every space we design has a custom element to it.
So no two spaces are alike.
You try to make it a signature piece for each project
(06:03):
so they can call it their own.
And you wanna get the clients involved
'cause it's more of a collaboration.
My job is just to really to lead them up the mountain, right?
Just to kind of lead them to create their vision
and put it into 3D,
touch it and feel it as opposed to just Googling it
and reading about it.
So I have to kind of take what's in their head
(06:24):
and put it into 3D in real life.
- Yes.
So what does that look like?
What does that creative process look like for you?
- Always starts out with a can of spray paint.
I always bring my spray paint.
I'm known for my spray paint.
Like they can't visual,
like years ago when I started,
there was no 3D renderings.
There was none of that.
(06:44):
It was basically just plan views.
And when you showed somebody a blueprint,
they looked at you like they had three heads
'cause if you're not in this field,
you don't know what it's supposed to look like.
So the 3D renderings help you visualize this space.
But when you take out a can of spray paint
and you spray their swimming pool on their lawn
and you spray paint that their patio,
then it becomes real, comes to scale.
(07:05):
And then it all starts to make a lot of sense.
I'm telling you,
a five dollar can of spray paint worked wonders.
- Okay, so you have a conversation with them
and you sort of have an idea of what you wanna do.
You map it out, which I think is so important
'cause a lot of people can't imagine
what it's gonna look like.
How do you take the,
(07:26):
how do you take the client on a journey with you
and get them into what's happening in your brain?
- They'll start talking about like plants
and flowers and stuff.
And I don't even go there,
just just tell me what you wanted to feel like
when you come outside.
I've had people say,
I wanna feel like I'm at a five star hotel
that I know it's gonna be a little more contemporary,
a little more modern, a little cleaner.
(07:48):
I wanna feel like I'm at the beach.
Then I know I'm gonna plant grasses
and certain types of hydrangea plants that grow here.
I wanna feel serene and all that.
I know I have to incorporate some fragrant flowers
and stuff like that.
So you have to kind of get the sense of it
and you design around the feeling that they wanna create.
- Wow, so there's like a certain amount of decoding
(08:10):
what people are saying and translating that
into this like practical experience.
- Not easy though, because you typically have,
the husband wants one thing, the wife wants another.
So I have to play marriage counselor in the middle, right?
So I'm trying to like tread the water.
He wants to know what it's gonna cost
and she just wants what she wants, right?
(08:30):
So we're trying to like get what they want
and keep everybody happy at the same time.
- Yeah, is that hard to do?
Like, do you ever get to a point where you're like,
okay, let's just stop this project until we all get aligned?
Or are you able to sort of bring them around?
- Once you get to the point where you kind of flush out
(08:51):
their vision, right?
Then you have to kind of get a sense of what you want
the space to look like and feel like.
And then it always comes down to the mighty,
what's this gonna cost?
Everybody looks on Pinterest and Instagram,
they see all these beautiful gardens,
but then we have to have that heart to heart conversation.
(09:11):
Cost, everybody can see what they want,
but it comes down to cost and budget.
You wanna design something that fits into the neighborhood,
right?
You don't wanna have a $500,000 house
and a $5 million landscape, right?
It'll ask the kind of work.
You do it as an investment, right?
Because if you put, you know,
they say a properly designed landscape
(09:32):
can increase the home value up to 20%.
So it's also an investment as well.
- Yes, wow.
So it sounds like there's a lot of considerations in it.
It's almost like, you know, composing, you know,
an artwork or something like that.
You've got to kind of make sure it all mixed in
and the colors go and the composition is right and balanced.
(09:55):
It's really interesting.
- Yeah, we're not even at the color selection yet.
We're not even at the plant selection.
We're just trying to define the space.
What's the space gonna feel like?
How is it all gonna flow?
How does the people gonna come out of the house
and go onto the patio?
So you work on those spatial elements first
and then you kind of just create the different living areas.
Like over here, we wanna have the kids play area.
(10:17):
Here we wanna have the outdoor kitchen area.
You know, same thing when you're designing a house,
there's the kitchen, the living room, the hangout area.
So you try to define all the spaces,
then you start whittling it down to materials, colors, sizes,
exactly like an interior designer would do.
- Yes, yeah, yeah.
Big and then just stuff refining.
- Yeah.
(10:37):
- I've had people say to me,
oh, I don't like yellow flowers
and we're not even near there.
The place looks like, you know,
the giant hole in the ground for the swimming pool.
We're not even at that discussion.
And one of the hardest parts is to try to keep the clients
on track because they'll start talking
about the flowers and the colors.
I try to keep them focused on the next task at hand.
(10:59):
You know, you wanna start with big and go small, correct.
- Yeah, wow.
So you do have a very, pretty much a set process
that you follow with every client
that you've got to do it in the right order.
- You have to do it in the right order.
And logistically, sometimes if we do a job in New York City
and I have to bring the plants up 20 stories
to a terrace on the balcony,
(11:19):
how logistically we're gonna get the material up there?
Because most people don't understand
the construction process of it.
It's also, you know, logistically,
how are you gonna move machines in and out,
patios, plants, dirt, a lot of different moving parts.
- Yes, yes.
So there's the artistic element,
but also logistics and construction.
(11:40):
(laughs)
- That's a whole another, yeah,
that's construction part of it.
So the design portion of it,
I think anything that you design,
a good designer has to design something
that is executable, right?
You don't wanna just show a pretty picture on a plan
or a pretty picture on a 3D rendering.
It has to be buildable.
I mean, I've seen so many designs that are look great,
(12:00):
but it's just way over budget, not practical to build.
You know, it just doesn't work.
- Are there other ways of being creative
with the solutions where you can work
within people's budgets,
or there's some things we like,
actually that's just not gonna happen
on the budget that you've got?
- Absolutely.
I mean, you know, so then we can,
(12:22):
what we call value engineer it, right?
It's just a fancy word for,
okay, you don't want a porcelain tile.
I can get you a nice looking brick pavement
that almost looks like porcelain, right?
For half the price.
And same with the planting.
You know, the planting, you know,
instead of a 10 foot tree, let's put it in at six feet.
It may take a couple of years to go,
but eventually, you know, if you're a little patient,
(12:44):
after three years, everything will kind of fill in together
and look like it's supposed to look.
So there's different ways
to fit the different budgets for sure.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great.
Because I do think like a huge aspect of creativity
is that sort of lateral thinking
and problem solving.
And it sounds like you have to do that
(13:06):
almost on a daily basis.
- Every day.
That's just on the design number.
Then you have the construction end of it,
which is another, you know, firefighting every day.
- Yeah.
(laughing)
- The design part is actually very easy for me.
It's the implementation of that design, right?
(13:27):
I don't, it's not good to just do a design
and hand it off to a guy and say,
"Here, go build this because things
"are gonna change throughout the projects."
And you may have to make certain adjustments on the fly.
You're digging a hole, you hit a big rock,
you have to move the pool a little bit.
So there's all different elements
that come up day to day for sure.
- Mm, yes.
So you manage the entire process.
(13:50):
'Cause I can imagine, yeah, as you said,
you hand it off to someone else,
they're gonna have their interpretation
of what the plan is and how it should be.
It could be easy for your vision
to kind of get lost along the way.
- You try to give them a very detailed plan
as much as possible, but it does,
it's interpretation, right?
So, you know, and also like the positioning of the plants,
(14:12):
you know, sourcing the right plant material,
positioning it, you know,
things may not look exactly the way they do on the plant.
I'm gonna have to make some in the field adjustments
to get it to look just right.
- Absolutely.
And so you mentioned before that you're a huge part
of the initial stages of your design processes
that you are trying to create the vision for your client
(14:36):
based on what they've told you.
What happens when you don't quite gel with their vision?
Like how do you stay creative
and how do you stay motivated to continue with that project?
- Maybe you can rephrase that.
How do I stay motivated when it's not going accordingly?
- Yes, I say you have like this wonderful vision
for a project and how it should be.
(14:57):
And your client doesn't quite agree with you.
What, well, like how do you do that?
- It just comes from the New York,
the New York attitude and the New York,
I just tell them it's not gonna work.
Like it's a waste of money, I have better solutions.
That's why they hire me, right?
To lead them.
If they can figure all the answers out themselves,
(15:18):
they wouldn't need something like me, you know?
So we can kind of, so together we kind of walk
through the situation and come up with the best solution.
- Yeah, yeah.
Sometimes it's not always, yeah, they want one thing
and it's not practical, let's say.
So we have to kind of, I mean, listen,
you can pretty much do anything
if you're willing to spend enough money behind it.
(15:38):
My job is to try to get you the best project
for the best price and keep the project on budget.
That's kind of my goal, right?
So you kind of have to lead them in the right way.
- For better negotiation there,
I mean, that certainly happens in my role, you know,
I do marketing and there's a kind's vision
(16:00):
and when they're so steadfast on their vision
and you're like, "Well, actually,
this goes against the design principles.
This shouldn't go ahead this way."
- One of the things, well, it's funny you say this,
'cause one of the things that really sends things
into a tailspin is when they start second guessing
themselves, right?
And then they start coming back to me with second guessing
(16:22):
and then they're asking me, you know, what do you think?
You don't wanna really ask the client, what do you think?
You know what I'm saying?
You don't wanna stay in your lane.
You know, you hired me 'cause I'm the professional.
If you start putting too much input
and I start listening to all that crazy input,
it gets crazy fast, very fast.
(16:42):
- Yes, but I mean, that takes a lot of confidence
to say that like, I'm the professional,
you've hired me for this, you should trust me.
Like, have you felt that way the whole way through
or is that something you developed throughout your career
that confidence to stand up for yourself?
- It's 40 years of doing this.
I've installed thousands of jobs.
(17:03):
Like, I can't even tell you thousands.
Over 40 years, it's a long time.
So yes, I pretty much tell them,
I've planted a lot of trees.
So you probably would be best if you listened to me.
That's just my advice.
You can do what you want.
I'm just telling you my experience.
- Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
(17:23):
I mean, I think that was a learning lesson for me
is that early on in my business,
that you think that you wanna try and appease the client
as much as possible and keep them happy.
But I guess I said at a point where like,
actually I've got the expertise, I've got the training,
I do this day in and day out.
My voice, it's valid here.
- It's like, like I was just telling you,
(17:44):
you know, what we started is like eight shades of gray.
My wife, you know, there's like 40 shades of gray.
Like I can't decide, give me like three to pick from.
Like the worst is taking the client to like the stone yard
or the nursery and there's just so many things coming out
and it becomes overwhelming for them.
(18:04):
So you wanna try to guide them in the right way.
You don't wanna give them too many options
because it gets overwhelming.
- Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Definitely considered part of the processes.
Giving them the autonomy to choose,
but only within the realm that you've set.
- Yeah, you wanna pick a gray?
It's medium, dark or light gray.
(18:27):
We're not going 40 shades.
And every shade of gray has a different name.
I mean, right?
You know what I'm talking about.
There's like, you know, so yeah, so that's really helped.
And you try to keep them on track
so we can keep the job on time, on budget
and get what you want.
'Cause once you start making, I always tell people,
(18:47):
listen, I can change it on a piece of paper for no charge.
Like we can design, it's best to flush out
the design process early on,
get all the materials picked out,
get everything selected.
Because once I go to the job site
and I have to start moving things with man and machinery,
it gets very expensive, very fast.
- Yeah, I can imagine.
(19:08):
And so you've been doing this, you know, 40 plus years.
How has this changed during that time?
Like has the industry changed
or your process changed throughout that time?
- I mean, just the communication has changed,
emails have changed.
I mean, there was no such thing as podcasts like this
(19:29):
have changed.
You can learn a lot from podcasts.
You can learn a lot.
I mean, basically you can just type in Google
and Google anything.
Oh, that's another thing I like to talk about.
I can always tell when a client's been Googling.
It's like, you know, when they tell you,
don't Google medical questions,
because then you got all the same thing.
I got, so they start Googling,
I can hear what they're asking me.
(19:50):
And I'm like, you Googled it, right?
Don't believe everything you read on Google,
type it in because then they get more,
then they have more stuff in their head.
- So technology has certainly played a factor in.
- Played a factor.
It's definitely helped because of the 3D renderings for sure.
The clients can really visualize things a lot better.
(20:13):
You know, that has changed,
I would have to say that's been the biggest change
in everything just in like in everybody else's life.
Technology, right?
And I'm still trying to learn.
I learn, I have to keep up with the learning, right?
But I still use my spray can.
Spray can works the best.
- Never retiring the spray can.
- Never retiring the spray can.
(20:33):
I still draw my designs by hand.
I still do my, 'cause when I went to college,
there was no ad drawings or 3D renderings.
I draw them by hand.
I put the vision on paper in a sketch form
and then I hand it off to my staff
that can make it look all pretty and fancy
with all the renderings.
- Yeah, I mean, like you said before,
(20:53):
you have the professionals,
you are the expert in that particular area,
you let them do it.
You do what you do best, which is the vision
and the initial strategy.
Let someone else do the actual technical part
of the drawing for you.
- Absolutely, 'cause they don't really have
the in-field experience that I do, right?
So it's very hard for them to kind of take it out of my head
(21:15):
and put it on paper.
So I give them rough sketch with some pencils
and some magic markers and they can basically,
you can understand it from there.
- Yes, yeah.
And that's a really cool, long career.
How have you stayed motivated and fresh
and fresh creatively over that time?
(21:36):
- Each client is different.
It's not like I'm doing commercial landscaping.
Each client has their own taste and styles.
No two clients are alike.
Everyone has their own motions
and what they want it to feel like in the spin-off.
So it's always, every job is different.
Every single job is different.
(21:58):
I'm still playing with plants.
So it's basically, I'm still playing with plants,
rocks, dirt, right?
So just keep that in mind.
It's the same thing with different configurations
and different materials, but it's all the same materials,
more or less, right?
- Yeah, yeah.
- I play with dirt.
(22:18):
That's what I play with dirt, rocks.
That's what I do, right?
But it's where you place the rocks,
where you place the plants,
how the drainage gonna affect everything,
where are you gonna put the outdoor kitchen?
So it all has to be, there's a whole lot of things
that go on behind the scenes that,
it makes it a little more challenging
than just putting an outdoor kitchen somewhere, right?
(22:41):
So that's the secret sauce.
- Yeah.
- Where anybody can dig a hole,
but where you dig the hole really matters.
- Yeah, that's why you're--
- I always like to say that,
I always like to say the pen is mightier than the shovel, right?
So the pen is mightier than the shovel,
meaning if I put it on paper,
it's easier to move the trees around on paper
(23:02):
as opposed to digging the hole
and moving it somewhere else, right?
So I like that little catchphrase.
- I like that, because I can imagine,
yeah, when you're dealing with such big things
like pools or, you know,
that you've got to establish trees or whatever like that,
it's so much harder to undo some of that work
(23:23):
once you get past a certain point.
- Once you get past a certain point,
to undo it and redo it is, yeah,
it's a challenge for sure.
- Yeah, yeah.
So you are super visible, you know,
you're on TV, you're in magazines,
you have your own book.
(23:43):
Do you still get enough time to do that,
putting pen to paper,
or does your sort of day-to-day
look a little bit different now?
- No, it's still the same.
You just have to, I get up early, 4.30.
Like, I'll send an email out at 4.30, right, AM.
(24:04):
But I go to bed early too,
so don't think I stay up late and I go to bed early.
So, that's social media stuff and all that,
it's a lot of work.
I don't care with anybody, it's a lot of work.
I mean, being on the podcast, it's a lot of work.
And then you have to edit this and post it,
for your end, if it's even more work,
I just have to show up and talk.
(24:25):
But you have all the post-production,
the pre-production, the planning, it's a lot of work.
Everybody says, you just,
oh, you just showed one social media, it's work.
- Yeah, absolutely.
And I was wondering whether, you know,
because the risk is like, as you get bigger and bigger
and you have more people in your team,
I certainly fight it with my teams.
(24:46):
Like, I'm doing less of the actual practical
doing on a day-to-day basis.
I'm doing more of the strategy,
whether there's a disconnect there.
But it sounds like you're still very much in tune
and you're still doing that on the daily basis.
- Some of the best days are on the job site
when the phone's, you know, the phone's not ringing.
Nobody's asking you a lot of questions.
(25:07):
Sometimes it's very peaceful, actually.
You know, just hanging out with the guys working, you know,
I don't really dig as much anymore,
but it's nice to be on the job site every now and then.
- Yeah, so it's important.
- The technical stuff, the office stuff and all that,
it's kind of like, you know, it's a drag sometimes, right?
That's why I do what I do, I'm outside with my spray paint.
(25:28):
- Yes. (laughs)
- That's where I'm the happiest.
With my spray can in the nursery,
picking out plants for a client is by far the best.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think it's important to know that those little things
that make you really happy and keep you connected
to what you love about what you're doing
and making sure that you're still able to do that regularly.
(25:51):
Otherwise you can get disconnected in completely.
That's why I think where motivation can get squashed
if you stop doing that sort of stuff.
- Absolutely, absolutely.
So I mentioned it before that you do have a book,
Straight Dirt, but I was reading through it
and it says that it's actually not a book about
(26:11):
landscape design, it's about lifestyle design.
Tell me about that.
- Right, so yeah, so we did, it's a hardcover book, right?
So we did a nice book and it becomes,
I didn't want to make it a lot of text
because nobody reads anymore.
(26:31):
They people love looking at pictures.
So it's really a coffee table book, right?
So it's a lot of fiction and a lot of stories
with clients and certain stories that we have
and certain design elements talk about lighting.
We talk about certain plants, my favorite plants,
just certain easy to read book.
And it really is a lifestyle, right?
(26:51):
So like we spoke from the beginning, it's like,
my job is to create your vision for your life
and your family, right?
It really comes down to creating memories outside.
We had a couple of clients that had one client
that was unable to swim.
He said, 45 year old man could not swim.
We put the pool in at the end of the summer,
he invited me over and he said, "Watch this."
(27:13):
And he jumped in the pool and he swam there and back.
So those stories are really like,
the kids use the pool, we use the pool all the time.
So you want to create memories for the people.
Everybody's like, "Oh, I want to design a backyard.
I want to keep my kids at home.
I want to make my house to go to house."
All their friends come up and barbecue.
So it's lifestyle, it's not landscaping.
(27:35):
It really is a lifestyle design.
- I like that.
It seems like this whole conversation has been about,
you're designing for these outcomes.
It's not just the design to be beautiful.
It's literally to bring this lifestyle to life.
I really think that's really cool
to design with the outcomes in mind.
(27:57):
- We had ever since, when we had that pandemic,
everybody wants to be outside.
So we design outdoor offices now.
It's just everybody has a new appreciation for outside.
And in the Northeast where I live, it's cold.
Cold from like end of October till,
it's cold now till April.
(28:18):
So the season here is very short, the outdoor season.
So people love to be outside in the springtime
and the summer and the fall.
It's a beautiful time of year.
'Cause it's long, dark, cold winters here.
- Wow, it's really interesting that people are still
so motivated to invest so much in their outdoor spaces
when they can only use it for half the year.
(28:41):
- Half the year, right?
Half the year, but now what's happening
in some of the trends are we're extending the season.
We're extending the season.
We're putting outdoor heaters, fire pits, outdoor TV.
So they're trying to extend the season,
outdoor fireplaces.
So you can basically stay outside as long as you want.
It's not, you're not gonna go swimming,
(29:01):
but you can certainly hang outside by the fire pit
and cook outside and all.
So that's really been a big help with.
We basically extended the outdoor season
for nine months instead of six months.
- That's wonderful.
I mean, that's better ROI for everyone, isn't it?
The best return on investment, if you can.
- Of course, especially.
- Do these things.
(29:22):
- Yeah, especially in the New York area
where the property taxes are super high.
So I try to tell them to maximize your entire property,
try to utilize every single space.
I thought a client say to me,
"Oh, I never go outside."
I can never go, you never go outside
because if my backyard looked like that,
I wouldn't go outside either, right?
So let me create something that you wanna go outside.
(29:44):
And then they said,
"Wow, I can't believe how nice it can look."
People just don't understand it
because they're not living it, right?
- Yeah.
So if someone wants to start this journey
and they say, "I'm never outside.
I have this outdoor space that I want to use better,"
what are the questions they should be asking themselves
(30:06):
to really get to the crux of the vision
for how they want to use that outdoor space?
- Hey, what do I wanna feel like when I go outside?
I wanna feel like, I wanna feel like calm,
I wanna feel like I'm on vacation,
I wanna feel like I don't wanna travel anymore.
(30:28):
I wanna just walk in my backyard
and have my own little micro resort out back, right?
So that's step one, what do you want it to feel like?
And then we have to see how much space we have to work with.
We can design anything.
I've designed 10 by 10 rooftops, right?
But you still try to make it their own, right?
So you make it their signature space.
(30:49):
So when people come home,
they have a place to unwind and unplug
and just reconnect with everything.
Not, you know, just it's really about
how do you make that space your own space?
Whatever that is, however big it is,
how whatever the budget is,
it could be a plant in a pot with a chair, seriously.
Like it could just be whatever,
(31:10):
as long as you can call your own little space,
it's all you really need.
- Wonderful.
And I like that it could be as small as as big as you have.
Everyone's got the opportunity to build a beautiful space
that they love outdoors.
- Sure.
And in budget can be, you can spend $10.
I always tell people, listen,
(31:31):
you can get just as wet in a blow up swimming pool
as you can in a $200,000 pool, right?
Think about it.
You can blow up a pool, go in and close your eyes.
You feel like you're floating in a pool, right?
So it all depends on, you know,
what you want it to feel like and the budgets and all,
but it really comes down to, you know, the feeling.
It's all about the feeling.
I really believe it is.
(31:53):
'Cause if you can achieve that feeling,
when you're all done, you've done it,
you've done your job.
- Beautiful.
I, yeah, I think I love that,
that it keeps going back to that feeling
at the forefront because so much of design is emotive
and you want people to have that sort of visceral reaction
where they like, "Ah, yes, this is relaxing."
(32:15):
Or, "Yeah, I feel like I'm on holidays."
Or, "I'm in, you know, Mexico, partying on the beach."
Or something like that.
- Yeah, just, you know, people work hard.
They want to enjoy their home.
Well, home is like your safe space, right?
Home is where when you go home, you know you're home, right?
It's your space, it's secure, it's safe,
(32:36):
it's your little nest, let's say, right?
So you want to make it as comfortable as possible.
- Definitely.
And so, I mean, this is Creativity (32:44):
Uncovered.
It's all about creativity.
And you said, so yourself, that you are creative
and this is a creative act.
How do you define creativity?
Like, what is creativity to you?
- I can't really put my finger on it.
(33:04):
I mean, I don't design for me, right?
Like, does that make sense?
Like, I know people that design plans or houses or whatever,
but they have a certain style and it has to be that way.
And you don't like it that way.
It's not gonna, that's the way I design.
But for me, I really design it for the client
(33:25):
and to try to get inside their head
and to try to come up with creative ways
to make everything work and look unique.
And everything, you know, that's really
that's really what the process is, right?
How do you make something unique?
That's a flat backyard.
How do you make it not?
How do you make it creative?
So we bring in a lot of dirt, right?
And we build up mounds and undulation
so it gives it a little more mountainous feeling, right?
(33:48):
Does anybody can do a flat backyard, right?
It's how do you make it special, right?
Sometimes we find a rock outcrop, you know,
like a boulder or something.
And then we put a light on the rock
and how does that stand out in the yard?
You wanna create like little focal points, right?
Little stories, we create little stories in the backyard.
- I love that.
(34:08):
I love that 'cause it's sort of,
that sort of includes problem solving
and, you know, listening and communication
and just coming up with new ways of approaching something,
not being a cookie cutter sort of approach to your design.
- Absolutely.
(34:30):
Cannot do cookie cutter.
My ADD won't allow it.
- And it'll be boring, right?
To do the same thing you have today.
- Boring.
Easier but boring, right?
No, so, you know, the creativity part is just,
and I don't believe it's, oh, I'm not creative at all.
(34:51):
Everybody can be creative.
It's, you can paint your walls orange if you want, right?
If that's what you like,
it is no one size fits all, definitely not, you know?
So it does, there's no set rules.
It's you have to like it, you have to love it.
If I don't do, if you don't come out and say,
wow, that's amazing, I didn't do my job, right?
(35:13):
So, you know, there's all different ways to become creative.
- Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And I think that's the cool thing
about having you on this podcast is that, you know,
from what I read and our previous conversations,
I know that you are a creative person,
but people wouldn't necessarily think that, you know,
if you're in landscape design,
that it's necessarily creative pursuit.
(35:35):
And that's why the podcast is so great
'cause we are showing that it is,
and just opening people's imagination
and expanding their view of what creativity is
because everyone is creative.
We just need to actually scratch the surface
and figure out how.
- I don't think I'm creative.
I don't know, it's just, it's what I do, right?
(35:55):
So maybe, listen, certain things I would say yes,
but then certain things no, right?
Stay in your lane, right?
We talked about it.
I'm not designing my kitchen.
I'm not designing my inside.
I have someone else to do that.
I'm an outside guy, right?
That's what I do.
I design outdoor spaces, not inside.
Well, I can help you with the inside,
(36:16):
but the colors and all, it's different on the outside.
- Don't ask you about grace.
- Well, now I could ask me about different color flowers.
I can tell you all day,
what works good, what the good flower combination is,
but not the color grays inside the paint.
- Oh, well, thank you so much, Steve.
That was a really cool insight into your creative process
(36:39):
for how you manage these projects that you run.
Yeah, thanks so much for joining me.
- It's a pleasure.
I love that this has been my first Australian podcast.
How is it the creative process over there?
Kind of the same?
Like it would seem like it would be the same globally, right?
I mean, everybody thinks inside their head.
(37:01):
- Yeah, I think, I mean, there's obviously,
as you mentioned before,
you really have to consider the context of the design.
And our context would be different,
but I'm sure there'd be the same fundamental elements
of the design process that everyone would have to go through.
- It's the same thing.
- Yeah, it's particularly the communication piece
that you said before,
(37:21):
because behind every design or every project is a person
and you have to be able to communicate well
to be able to bring them on the journey with you.
- Absolutely, you know, we just have different elements.
Your weather is a lot different than ours.
So it's still the same journey.
Again, I'm not building a monument to myself.
(37:43):
I have to, it's for clients, right?
So my job is to just lead them up the mountain, right?
They're the hero.
I try to make them the hero in the project, right?
So if I make them the hero
and I'm just the guide to get them there,
then it's a win-win for everybody.
- Oh, that's very story brand of you.
I don't know if you've had a story brand.
It's like a, it's kind of a-
- Ah, look at you.
(38:04):
Who you've been listening to?
(laughing)
You're the guide on the journey.
I like that.
- Yes, those guys have really helped me out a lot actually.
- Yeah, yeah.
It's a beautiful approach, I think.
- It really is.
It makes so much sense.
It's like, wow, I didn't, you know,
so that's the way I try to, when I meet a new client,
(38:25):
that's what I try to explain to them,
that I'm not trying to force any design style on you
or anything.
I'm just trying to get it out of your head
and make it a reality.
- Perfect.
That's cool.
And I'm hoping that this podcast is sort of a little guide
for people as well to help them kickstart
their creative journey if they feel like
they're not creative or to help them bust
(38:47):
through creative blocks if they are experiencing that.
- Just go get a can of upside down spray paint.
That's the, it's upside, it has to be upside down.
'Cause if you take a regular can of spray paint
or own spray, but if you get the upside down,
it works great.
- There you go.
- I'm pro-tip there.
- There you go.
(laughing)
(39:08):
- And yeah, that was Steve Griggs joining me today.
And I also want to say thank you
to everyone who has tuned in to Creativity (39:13):
Uncovered.
If you enjoyed this episode, please do jump online
on Apple or Spotify and give us a rating or review
because that'll help this podcast find its way
to new people who need it.
And if this episode has helped you with your creativity,
I'd love to hear about it.
So please do send me a message
(39:34):
and we can help make the world a bit more
of a creative space.
Thanks so much, until next time.
- Thank you, glad to be here.
Take care.
(upbeat music)
- If you've made it this far, a huge thank you
(40:14):
for your support and tuning into today's episode.
Creativity (40:18):
Uncovered has been lovingly recorded
on the land of the Kabi Kabi people.
And we pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging.
This podcast has been produced
by my amazing team here at Crisp Communications
and the music you just heard was composed by James Gatling.
(40:38):
If you liked this episode, please do share it around
and help us on our mission to unlock more creativity
in this world.
You can also hit subscribe so you don't miss out
on any new episode releases.
...
(upbeat music)
(00:02):
So I've been planning some renovations
at my house recently.
And I tell you, so much effort goes into designing a space
that is both functional and beautiful
and you just want to use every day.
So in this episode of Creativity (00:22):
Uncovered,
I'm gonna be speaking with someone
who does this day in and day out.
(upbeat music)
So please join me, Abi Gatling,
on my journey to uncover how everyday people
find inspiration, get invented, and open their imagination.
Basically through this podcast,
(00:42):
I'm gonna find out how people find creative solutions
that come home and work, play, and everything in between.
And my goal for this podcast is that by the end of it,
you'll be on to the whole suite of tried and tested ways
to some creativity the next time that you need it.
(upbeat music)
Now today, I'm super excited to be speaking with Steve Griggs,
(01:06):
who is New York's premier landscape designer,
all about his creative process.
Welcome, Steve.
- Glad to be here.
I'm in New York and it's Friday morning where you are.
This is a great time to do this podcast
because I'm currently doing a renovation inside my house.
And if my wife shows me one more shade of gray,
(01:26):
I'm gonna scream.
I'm not kidding.
It's like there's 40 shades of gray
and they all look the same.
So this is gonna be very good with,
'cause I'm in the middle of it.
Kitchen floors, painting, I'm living it.
I'm living it.
- That's what I have to look forward to, right?
- You know what?
(01:47):
I keep telling myself,
it's gonna be worth it when it's all done.
Like even when you do an outdoor project,
it's always worse before it gets better.
So this is super exciting here, 'cause I'm living it.
- Now, Steve, you actually don't do the interior of design.
You're a landscape designer,
which means you work in outdoor spaces.
(02:08):
Tell me, how did you actually get into that
in the first place?
Because you're from New York.
Most people don't necessarily think
outside green spaces with New York.
Tell me about that.
- That's a very good question,
'cause I went to school down in Mississippi
and every time they asked me,
they wanted to know if I have grass where I live, right?
So I live outside the city in the suburbs
(02:29):
where there's houses and grass and trees and all that.
I basically just like being outside and working outside.
And when I took the high school aptitude test,
I checked all the boxes
that I'm not wanting to be sitting behind a desk all day.
So there you have it.
40 years later, I'm still here.
- That's good.
Okay, so I've just made a faux park.
(02:51):
Every time people talk to me about living in Australia,
they're like, "Do you ride a kangaroo to school?"
- Yeah, same thing.
- On this lake, everywhere.
Same thing, New York.
- Same thing.
I'm in the concrete jungle.
They call this concrete jungle.
- Yeah.
It's all the movies we watch, I think, that's the issue.
- That's right.
I mean, crocodile dundee, right?
That's the only thing I know.
(03:12):
- So yeah, so landscape design, wonderful thing.
Tell me, what does the perfect space look like?
What are the elements that need to be ticked off
in your eyes to have a good space?
- So basically, when you're designing an outdoor space,
I try to explain to people
because people seem to understand the interior
(03:33):
better than the exterior.
So when I try to explain the exterior,
I try to picture them to picture the outdoor room, right?
So inside the room, you have carpet and flooring.
Outside, you have patios or grass.
Same thing with the walls.
It could be a fence, it could be tall hedges.
And then same with like a ceiling,
(03:54):
it could be a canopy, it could be a pergola overhead.
Lighting could be a lamp, a landscape lamp.
So it's the same kind of elements.
When I phrase it that way,
they kind of understand it a little bit better
because typically the outdoors is not as much,
the homeowners don't really use the outdoors,
do the outdoor spaces as much as they renovate
(04:14):
the indoor spaces.
So when I create it to the outside,
they kind of connect the dots.
So it makes a lot of sense.
- Absolutely, that makes perfect sense in my mind.
You know, where I am here in Australia,
it's super hot, we're subtropical.
Our outdoor space is just an extension of our home.
We consider it to be another room.
So the way you describe that is perfect for me.
(04:38):
But so you call yourself a landscape artist.
I've read that in a few articles about you.
Tell me, tell me what is the creativity
that's needed in this line of work?
- So I don't really like the word landscape architect
because people would say, oh, I need my grass cut, right?
(04:58):
They don't really understand what a landscape architect
slash designer is as opposed to just a landscaper.
So I said, well, let's call it a landscape artist
because typically when I go to a job site,
I have to see the site,
I have to put, we call it boots on the ground
because you have to walk the site
and get a sense of what the space feels like
as opposed to just looking at it on a picture
(05:19):
or a computer screen.
You may see a focal point, like a rock outcrop,
a nice vista or view of water or a mountain.
You wanna try to incorporate all that.
So you really need to walk the space with the client
and try to get inside their head
to see what the space should feel like when it's all done.
- Oh yes, what it should feel like.
(05:41):
That's great.
So what are the feelings that you generally want to get
from an outdoor space like that?
- Just like anybody else.
It's like you wanna get a sense of security.
It's your own space.
Every space we design has a custom element to it.
So no two spaces are alike.
You try to make it a signature piece for each project
(06:03):
so they can call it their own.
And you wanna get the clients involved
'cause it's more of a collaboration.
My job is just to really to lead them up the mountain, right?
Just to kind of lead them to create their vision
and put it into 3D,
touch it and feel it as opposed to just Googling it
and reading about it.
So I have to kind of take what's in their head
(06:24):
and put it into 3D in real life.
- Yes.
So what does that look like?
What does that creative process look like for you?
- Always starts out with a can of spray paint.
I always bring my spray paint.
I'm known for my spray paint.
Like they can't visual,
like years ago when I started,
there was no 3D renderings.
There was none of that.
(06:44):
It was basically just plan views.
And when you showed somebody a blueprint,
they looked at you like they had three heads
'cause if you're not in this field,
you don't know what it's supposed to look like.
So the 3D renderings help you visualize this space.
But when you take out a can of spray paint
and you spray their swimming pool on their lawn
and you spray paint that their patio,
then it becomes real, comes to scale.
(07:05):
And then it all starts to make a lot of sense.
I'm telling you,
a five dollar can of spray paint worked wonders.
- Okay, so you have a conversation with them
and you sort of have an idea of what you wanna do.
You map it out, which I think is so important
'cause a lot of people can't imagine
what it's gonna look like.
How do you take the,
(07:26):
how do you take the client on a journey with you
and get them into what's happening in your brain?
- They'll start talking about like plants
and flowers and stuff.
And I don't even go there,
just just tell me what you wanted to feel like
when you come outside.
I've had people say,
I wanna feel like I'm at a five star hotel
that I know it's gonna be a little more contemporary,
a little more modern, a little cleaner.
(07:48):
I wanna feel like I'm at the beach.
Then I know I'm gonna plant grasses
and certain types of hydrangea plants that grow here.
I wanna feel serene and all that.
I know I have to incorporate some fragrant flowers
and stuff like that.
So you have to kind of get the sense of it
and you design around the feeling that they wanna create.
- Wow, so there's like a certain amount of decoding
(08:10):
what people are saying and translating that
into this like practical experience.
- Not easy though, because you typically have,
the husband wants one thing, the wife wants another.
So I have to play marriage counselor in the middle, right?
So I'm trying to like tread the water.
He wants to know what it's gonna cost
and she just wants what she wants, right?
(08:30):
So we're trying to like get what they want
and keep everybody happy at the same time.
- Yeah, is that hard to do?
Like, do you ever get to a point where you're like,
okay, let's just stop this project until we all get aligned?
Or are you able to sort of bring them around?
- Once you get to the point where you kind of flush out
(08:51):
their vision, right?
Then you have to kind of get a sense of what you want
the space to look like and feel like.
And then it always comes down to the mighty,
what's this gonna cost?
Everybody looks on Pinterest and Instagram,
they see all these beautiful gardens,
but then we have to have that heart to heart conversation.
(09:11):
Cost, everybody can see what they want,
but it comes down to cost and budget.
You wanna design something that fits into the neighborhood,
right?
You don't wanna have a $500,000 house
and a $5 million landscape, right?
It'll ask the kind of work.
You do it as an investment, right?
Because if you put, you know,
they say a properly designed landscape
(09:32):
can increase the home value up to 20%.
So it's also an investment as well.
- Yes, wow.
So it sounds like there's a lot of considerations in it.
It's almost like, you know, composing, you know,
an artwork or something like that.
You've got to kind of make sure it all mixed in
and the colors go and the composition is right and balanced.
(09:55):
It's really interesting.
- Yeah, we're not even at the color selection yet.
We're not even at the plant selection.
We're just trying to define the space.
What's the space gonna feel like?
How is it all gonna flow?
How does the people gonna come out of the house
and go onto the patio?
So you work on those spatial elements first
and then you kind of just create the different living areas.
Like over here, we wanna have the kids play area.
(10:17):
Here we wanna have the outdoor kitchen area.
You know, same thing when you're designing a house,
there's the kitchen, the living room, the hangout area.
So you try to define all the spaces,
then you start whittling it down to materials, colors, sizes,
exactly like an interior designer would do.
- Yes, yeah, yeah.
Big and then just stuff refining.
- Yeah.
(10:37):
- I've had people say to me,
oh, I don't like yellow flowers
and we're not even near there.
The place looks like, you know,
the giant hole in the ground for the swimming pool.
We're not even at that discussion.
And one of the hardest parts is to try to keep the clients
on track because they'll start talking
about the flowers and the colors.
I try to keep them focused on the next task at hand.
(10:59):
You know, you wanna start with big and go small, correct.
- Yeah, wow.
So you do have a very, pretty much a set process
that you follow with every client
that you've got to do it in the right order.
- You have to do it in the right order.
And logistically, sometimes if we do a job in New York City
and I have to bring the plants up 20 stories
to a terrace on the balcony,
(11:19):
how logistically we're gonna get the material up there?
Because most people don't understand
the construction process of it.
It's also, you know, logistically,
how are you gonna move machines in and out,
patios, plants, dirt, a lot of different moving parts.
- Yes, yes.
So there's the artistic element,
but also logistics and construction.
(11:40):
(laughs)
- That's a whole another, yeah,
that's construction part of it.
So the design portion of it,
I think anything that you design,
a good designer has to design something
that is executable, right?
You don't wanna just show a pretty picture on a plan
or a pretty picture on a 3D rendering.
It has to be buildable.
I mean, I've seen so many designs that are look great,
(12:00):
but it's just way over budget, not practical to build.
You know, it just doesn't work.
- Are there other ways of being creative
with the solutions where you can work
within people's budgets,
or there's some things we like,
actually that's just not gonna happen
on the budget that you've got?
- Absolutely.
I mean, you know, so then we can,
(12:22):
what we call value engineer it, right?
It's just a fancy word for,
okay, you don't want a porcelain tile.
I can get you a nice looking brick pavement
that almost looks like porcelain, right?
For half the price.
And same with the planting.
You know, the planting, you know,
instead of a 10 foot tree, let's put it in at six feet.
It may take a couple of years to go,
but eventually, you know, if you're a little patient,
(12:44):
after three years, everything will kind of fill in together
and look like it's supposed to look.
So there's different ways
to fit the different budgets for sure.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great.
Because I do think like a huge aspect of creativity
is that sort of lateral thinking
and problem solving.
And it sounds like you have to do that
(13:06):
almost on a daily basis.
- Every day.
That's just on the design number.
Then you have the construction end of it,
which is another, you know, firefighting every day.
- Yeah.
(laughing)
- The design part is actually very easy for me.
It's the implementation of that design, right?
(13:27):
I don't, it's not good to just do a design
and hand it off to a guy and say,
"Here, go build this because things
"are gonna change throughout the projects."
And you may have to make certain adjustments on the fly.
You're digging a hole, you hit a big rock,
you have to move the pool a little bit.
So there's all different elements
that come up day to day for sure.
- Mm, yes.
So you manage the entire process.
(13:50):
'Cause I can imagine, yeah, as you said,
you hand it off to someone else,
they're gonna have their interpretation
of what the plan is and how it should be.
It could be easy for your vision
to kind of get lost along the way.
- You try to give them a very detailed plan
as much as possible, but it does,
it's interpretation, right?
So, you know, and also like the positioning of the plants,
(14:12):
you know, sourcing the right plant material,
positioning it, you know,
things may not look exactly the way they do on the plant.
I'm gonna have to make some in the field adjustments
to get it to look just right.
- Absolutely.
And so you mentioned before that you're a huge part
of the initial stages of your design processes
that you are trying to create the vision for your client
(14:36):
based on what they've told you.
What happens when you don't quite gel with their vision?
Like how do you stay creative
and how do you stay motivated to continue with that project?
- Maybe you can rephrase that.
How do I stay motivated when it's not going accordingly?
- Yes, I say you have like this wonderful vision
for a project and how it should be.
(14:57):
And your client doesn't quite agree with you.
What, well, like how do you do that?
- It just comes from the New York,
the New York attitude and the New York,
I just tell them it's not gonna work.
Like it's a waste of money, I have better solutions.
That's why they hire me, right?
To lead them.
If they can figure all the answers out themselves,
(15:18):
they wouldn't need something like me, you know?
So we can kind of, so together we kind of walk
through the situation and come up with the best solution.
- Yeah, yeah.
Sometimes it's not always, yeah, they want one thing
and it's not practical, let's say.
So we have to kind of, I mean, listen,
you can pretty much do anything
if you're willing to spend enough money behind it.
(15:38):
My job is to try to get you the best project
for the best price and keep the project on budget.
That's kind of my goal, right?
So you kind of have to lead them in the right way.
- For better negotiation there,
I mean, that certainly happens in my role, you know,
I do marketing and there's a kind's vision
(16:00):
and when they're so steadfast on their vision
and you're like, "Well, actually,
this goes against the design principles.
This shouldn't go ahead this way."
- One of the things, well, it's funny you say this,
'cause one of the things that really sends things
into a tailspin is when they start second guessing
themselves, right?
And then they start coming back to me with second guessing
(16:22):
and then they're asking me, you know, what do you think?
You don't wanna really ask the client, what do you think?
You know what I'm saying?
You don't wanna stay in your lane.
You know, you hired me 'cause I'm the professional.
If you start putting too much input
and I start listening to all that crazy input,
it gets crazy fast, very fast.
(16:42):
- Yes, but I mean, that takes a lot of confidence
to say that like, I'm the professional,
you've hired me for this, you should trust me.
Like, have you felt that way the whole way through
or is that something you developed throughout your career
that confidence to stand up for yourself?
- It's 40 years of doing this.
I've installed thousands of jobs.
(17:03):
Like, I can't even tell you thousands.
Over 40 years, it's a long time.
So yes, I pretty much tell them,
I've planted a lot of trees.
So you probably would be best if you listened to me.
That's just my advice.
You can do what you want.
I'm just telling you my experience.
- Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
(17:23):
I mean, I think that was a learning lesson for me
is that early on in my business,
that you think that you wanna try and appease the client
as much as possible and keep them happy.
But I guess I said at a point where like,
actually I've got the expertise, I've got the training,
I do this day in and day out.
My voice, it's valid here.
- It's like, like I was just telling you,
(17:44):
you know, what we started is like eight shades of gray.
My wife, you know, there's like 40 shades of gray.
Like I can't decide, give me like three to pick from.
Like the worst is taking the client to like the stone yard
or the nursery and there's just so many things coming out
and it becomes overwhelming for them.
(18:04):
So you wanna try to guide them in the right way.
You don't wanna give them too many options
because it gets overwhelming.
- Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Definitely considered part of the processes.
Giving them the autonomy to choose,
but only within the realm that you've set.
- Yeah, you wanna pick a gray?
It's medium, dark or light gray.
(18:27):
We're not going 40 shades.
And every shade of gray has a different name.
I mean, right?
You know what I'm talking about.
There's like, you know, so yeah, so that's really helped.
And you try to keep them on track
so we can keep the job on time, on budget
and get what you want.
'Cause once you start making, I always tell people,
(18:47):
listen, I can change it on a piece of paper for no charge.
Like we can design, it's best to flush out
the design process early on,
get all the materials picked out,
get everything selected.
Because once I go to the job site
and I have to start moving things with man and machinery,
it gets very expensive, very fast.
- Yeah, I can imagine.
(19:08):
And so you've been doing this, you know, 40 plus years.
How has this changed during that time?
Like has the industry changed
or your process changed throughout that time?
- I mean, just the communication has changed,
emails have changed.
I mean, there was no such thing as podcasts like this
(19:29):
have changed.
You can learn a lot from podcasts.
You can learn a lot.
I mean, basically you can just type in Google
and Google anything.
Oh, that's another thing I like to talk about.
I can always tell when a client's been Googling.
It's like, you know, when they tell you,
don't Google medical questions,
because then you got all the same thing.
I got, so they start Googling,
I can hear what they're asking me.
(19:50):
And I'm like, you Googled it, right?
Don't believe everything you read on Google,
type it in because then they get more,
then they have more stuff in their head.
- So technology has certainly played a factor in.
- Played a factor.
It's definitely helped because of the 3D renderings for sure.
The clients can really visualize things a lot better.
(20:13):
You know, that has changed,
I would have to say that's been the biggest change
in everything just in like in everybody else's life.
Technology, right?
And I'm still trying to learn.
I learn, I have to keep up with the learning, right?
But I still use my spray can.
Spray can works the best.
- Never retiring the spray can.
- Never retiring the spray can.
(20:33):
I still draw my designs by hand.
I still do my, 'cause when I went to college,
there was no ad drawings or 3D renderings.
I draw them by hand.
I put the vision on paper in a sketch form
and then I hand it off to my staff
that can make it look all pretty and fancy
with all the renderings.
- Yeah, I mean, like you said before,
(20:53):
you have the professionals,
you are the expert in that particular area,
you let them do it.
You do what you do best, which is the vision
and the initial strategy.
Let someone else do the actual technical part
of the drawing for you.
- Absolutely, 'cause they don't really have
the in-field experience that I do, right?
So it's very hard for them to kind of take it out of my head
(21:15):
and put it on paper.
So I give them rough sketch with some pencils
and some magic markers and they can basically,
you can understand it from there.
- Yes, yeah.
And that's a really cool, long career.
How have you stayed motivated and fresh
and fresh creatively over that time?
(21:36):
- Each client is different.
It's not like I'm doing commercial landscaping.
Each client has their own taste and styles.
No two clients are alike.
Everyone has their own motions
and what they want it to feel like in the spin-off.
So it's always, every job is different.
Every single job is different.
(21:58):
I'm still playing with plants.
So it's basically, I'm still playing with plants,
rocks, dirt, right?
So just keep that in mind.
It's the same thing with different configurations
and different materials, but it's all the same materials,
more or less, right?
- Yeah, yeah.
- I play with dirt.
(22:18):
That's what I play with dirt, rocks.
That's what I do, right?
But it's where you place the rocks,
where you place the plants,
how the drainage gonna affect everything,
where are you gonna put the outdoor kitchen?
So it all has to be, there's a whole lot of things
that go on behind the scenes that,
it makes it a little more challenging
than just putting an outdoor kitchen somewhere, right?
(22:41):
So that's the secret sauce.
- Yeah.
- Where anybody can dig a hole,
but where you dig the hole really matters.
- Yeah, that's why you're--
- I always like to say that,
I always like to say the pen is mightier than the shovel, right?
So the pen is mightier than the shovel,
meaning if I put it on paper,
it's easier to move the trees around on paper
(23:02):
as opposed to digging the hole
and moving it somewhere else, right?
So I like that little catchphrase.
- I like that, because I can imagine,
yeah, when you're dealing with such big things
like pools or, you know,
that you've got to establish trees or whatever like that,
it's so much harder to undo some of that work
(23:23):
once you get past a certain point.
- Once you get past a certain point,
to undo it and redo it is, yeah,
it's a challenge for sure.
- Yeah, yeah.
So you are super visible, you know,
you're on TV, you're in magazines,
you have your own book.
(23:43):
Do you still get enough time to do that,
putting pen to paper,
or does your sort of day-to-day
look a little bit different now?
- No, it's still the same.
You just have to, I get up early, 4.30.
Like, I'll send an email out at 4.30, right, AM.
(24:04):
But I go to bed early too,
so don't think I stay up late and I go to bed early.
So, that's social media stuff and all that,
it's a lot of work.
I don't care with anybody, it's a lot of work.
I mean, being on the podcast, it's a lot of work.
And then you have to edit this and post it,
for your end, if it's even more work,
I just have to show up and talk.
(24:25):
But you have all the post-production,
the pre-production, the planning, it's a lot of work.
Everybody says, you just,
oh, you just showed one social media, it's work.
- Yeah, absolutely.
And I was wondering whether, you know,
because the risk is like, as you get bigger and bigger
and you have more people in your team,
I certainly fight it with my teams.
(24:46):
Like, I'm doing less of the actual practical
doing on a day-to-day basis.
I'm doing more of the strategy,
whether there's a disconnect there.
But it sounds like you're still very much in tune
and you're still doing that on the daily basis.
- Some of the best days are on the job site
when the phone's, you know, the phone's not ringing.
Nobody's asking you a lot of questions.
(25:07):
Sometimes it's very peaceful, actually.
You know, just hanging out with the guys working, you know,
I don't really dig as much anymore,
but it's nice to be on the job site every now and then.
- Yeah, so it's important.
- The technical stuff, the office stuff and all that,
it's kind of like, you know, it's a drag sometimes, right?
That's why I do what I do, I'm outside with my spray paint.
(25:28):
- Yes. (laughs)
- That's where I'm the happiest.
With my spray can in the nursery,
picking out plants for a client is by far the best.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think it's important to know that those little things
that make you really happy and keep you connected
to what you love about what you're doing
and making sure that you're still able to do that regularly.
(25:51):
Otherwise you can get disconnected in completely.
That's why I think where motivation can get squashed
if you stop doing that sort of stuff.
- Absolutely, absolutely.
So I mentioned it before that you do have a book,
Straight Dirt, but I was reading through it
and it says that it's actually not a book about
(26:11):
landscape design, it's about lifestyle design.
Tell me about that.
- Right, so yeah, so we did, it's a hardcover book, right?
So we did a nice book and it becomes,
I didn't want to make it a lot of text
because nobody reads anymore.
(26:31):
They people love looking at pictures.
So it's really a coffee table book, right?
So it's a lot of fiction and a lot of stories
with clients and certain stories that we have
and certain design elements talk about lighting.
We talk about certain plants, my favorite plants,
just certain easy to read book.
And it really is a lifestyle, right?
(26:51):
So like we spoke from the beginning, it's like,
my job is to create your vision for your life
and your family, right?
It really comes down to creating memories outside.
We had a couple of clients that had one client
that was unable to swim.
He said, 45 year old man could not swim.
We put the pool in at the end of the summer,
he invited me over and he said, "Watch this."
(27:13):
And he jumped in the pool and he swam there and back.
So those stories are really like,
the kids use the pool, we use the pool all the time.
So you want to create memories for the people.
Everybody's like, "Oh, I want to design a backyard.
I want to keep my kids at home.
I want to make my house to go to house."
All their friends come up and barbecue.
So it's lifestyle, it's not landscaping.
(27:35):
It really is a lifestyle design.
- I like that.
It seems like this whole conversation has been about,
you're designing for these outcomes.
It's not just the design to be beautiful.
It's literally to bring this lifestyle to life.
I really think that's really cool
to design with the outcomes in mind.
(27:57):
- We had ever since, when we had that pandemic,
everybody wants to be outside.
So we design outdoor offices now.
It's just everybody has a new appreciation for outside.
And in the Northeast where I live, it's cold.
Cold from like end of October till,
it's cold now till April.
(28:18):
So the season here is very short, the outdoor season.
So people love to be outside in the springtime
and the summer and the fall.
It's a beautiful time of year.
'Cause it's long, dark, cold winters here.
- Wow, it's really interesting that people are still
so motivated to invest so much in their outdoor spaces
when they can only use it for half the year.
(28:41):
- Half the year, right?
Half the year, but now what's happening
in some of the trends are we're extending the season.
We're extending the season.
We're putting outdoor heaters, fire pits, outdoor TV.
So they're trying to extend the season,
outdoor fireplaces.
So you can basically stay outside as long as you want.
It's not, you're not gonna go swimming,
(29:01):
but you can certainly hang outside by the fire pit
and cook outside and all.
So that's really been a big help with.
We basically extended the outdoor season
for nine months instead of six months.
- That's wonderful.
I mean, that's better ROI for everyone, isn't it?
The best return on investment, if you can.
- Of course, especially.
- Do these things.
(29:22):
- Yeah, especially in the New York area
where the property taxes are super high.
So I try to tell them to maximize your entire property,
try to utilize every single space.
I thought a client say to me,
"Oh, I never go outside."
I can never go, you never go outside
because if my backyard looked like that,
I wouldn't go outside either, right?
So let me create something that you wanna go outside.
(29:44):
And then they said,
"Wow, I can't believe how nice it can look."
People just don't understand it
because they're not living it, right?
- Yeah.
So if someone wants to start this journey
and they say, "I'm never outside.
I have this outdoor space that I want to use better,"
what are the questions they should be asking themselves
(30:06):
to really get to the crux of the vision
for how they want to use that outdoor space?
- Hey, what do I wanna feel like when I go outside?
I wanna feel like, I wanna feel like calm,
I wanna feel like I'm on vacation,
I wanna feel like I don't wanna travel anymore.
(30:28):
I wanna just walk in my backyard
and have my own little micro resort out back, right?
So that's step one, what do you want it to feel like?
And then we have to see how much space we have to work with.
We can design anything.
I've designed 10 by 10 rooftops, right?
But you still try to make it their own, right?
So you make it their signature space.
(30:49):
So when people come home,
they have a place to unwind and unplug
and just reconnect with everything.
Not, you know, just it's really about
how do you make that space your own space?
Whatever that is, however big it is,
how whatever the budget is,
it could be a plant in a pot with a chair, seriously.
Like it could just be whatever,
(31:10):
as long as you can call your own little space,
it's all you really need.
- Wonderful.
And I like that it could be as small as as big as you have.
Everyone's got the opportunity to build a beautiful space
that they love outdoors.
- Sure.
And in budget can be, you can spend $10.
I always tell people, listen,
(31:31):
you can get just as wet in a blow up swimming pool
as you can in a $200,000 pool, right?
Think about it.
You can blow up a pool, go in and close your eyes.
You feel like you're floating in a pool, right?
So it all depends on, you know,
what you want it to feel like and the budgets and all,
but it really comes down to, you know, the feeling.
It's all about the feeling.
I really believe it is.
(31:53):
'Cause if you can achieve that feeling,
when you're all done, you've done it,
you've done your job.
- Beautiful.
I, yeah, I think I love that,
that it keeps going back to that feeling
at the forefront because so much of design is emotive
and you want people to have that sort of visceral reaction
where they like, "Ah, yes, this is relaxing."
(32:15):
Or, "Yeah, I feel like I'm on holidays."
Or, "I'm in, you know, Mexico, partying on the beach."
Or something like that.
- Yeah, just, you know, people work hard.
They want to enjoy their home.
Well, home is like your safe space, right?
Home is where when you go home, you know you're home, right?
It's your space, it's secure, it's safe,
(32:36):
it's your little nest, let's say, right?
So you want to make it as comfortable as possible.
- Definitely.
And so, I mean, this is Creativity (32:44):
Uncovered.
It's all about creativity.
And you said, so yourself, that you are creative
and this is a creative act.
How do you define creativity?
Like, what is creativity to you?
- I can't really put my finger on it.
(33:04):
I mean, I don't design for me, right?
Like, does that make sense?
Like, I know people that design plans or houses or whatever,
but they have a certain style and it has to be that way.
And you don't like it that way.
It's not gonna, that's the way I design.
But for me, I really design it for the client
(33:25):
and to try to get inside their head
and to try to come up with creative ways
to make everything work and look unique.
And everything, you know, that's really
that's really what the process is, right?
How do you make something unique?
That's a flat backyard.
How do you make it not?
How do you make it creative?
So we bring in a lot of dirt, right?
And we build up mounds and undulation
so it gives it a little more mountainous feeling, right?
(33:48):
Does anybody can do a flat backyard, right?
It's how do you make it special, right?
Sometimes we find a rock outcrop, you know,
like a boulder or something.
And then we put a light on the rock
and how does that stand out in the yard?
You wanna create like little focal points, right?
Little stories, we create little stories in the backyard.
- I love that.
(34:08):
I love that 'cause it's sort of,
that sort of includes problem solving
and, you know, listening and communication
and just coming up with new ways of approaching something,
not being a cookie cutter sort of approach to your design.
- Absolutely.
(34:30):
Cannot do cookie cutter.
My ADD won't allow it.
- And it'll be boring, right?
To do the same thing you have today.
- Boring.
Easier but boring, right?
No, so, you know, the creativity part is just,
and I don't believe it's, oh, I'm not creative at all.
(34:51):
Everybody can be creative.
It's, you can paint your walls orange if you want, right?
If that's what you like,
it is no one size fits all, definitely not, you know?
So it does, there's no set rules.
It's you have to like it, you have to love it.
If I don't do, if you don't come out and say,
wow, that's amazing, I didn't do my job, right?
(35:13):
So, you know, there's all different ways to become creative.
- Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And I think that's the cool thing
about having you on this podcast is that, you know,
from what I read and our previous conversations,
I know that you are a creative person,
but people wouldn't necessarily think that, you know,
if you're in landscape design,
that it's necessarily creative pursuit.
(35:35):
And that's why the podcast is so great
'cause we are showing that it is,
and just opening people's imagination
and expanding their view of what creativity is
because everyone is creative.
We just need to actually scratch the surface
and figure out how.
- I don't think I'm creative.
I don't know, it's just, it's what I do, right?
(35:55):
So maybe, listen, certain things I would say yes,
but then certain things no, right?
Stay in your lane, right?
We talked about it.
I'm not designing my kitchen.
I'm not designing my inside.
I have someone else to do that.
I'm an outside guy, right?
That's what I do.
I design outdoor spaces, not inside.
Well, I can help you with the inside,
(36:16):
but the colors and all, it's different on the outside.
- Don't ask you about grace.
- Well, now I could ask me about different color flowers.
I can tell you all day,
what works good, what the good flower combination is,
but not the color grays inside the paint.
- Oh, well, thank you so much, Steve.
That was a really cool insight into your creative process
(36:39):
for how you manage these projects that you run.
Yeah, thanks so much for joining me.
- It's a pleasure.
I love that this has been my first Australian podcast.
How is it the creative process over there?
Kind of the same?
Like it would seem like it would be the same globally, right?
I mean, everybody thinks inside their head.
(37:01):
- Yeah, I think, I mean, there's obviously,
as you mentioned before,
you really have to consider the context of the design.
And our context would be different,
but I'm sure there'd be the same fundamental elements
of the design process that everyone would have to go through.
- It's the same thing.
- Yeah, it's particularly the communication piece
that you said before,
(37:21):
because behind every design or every project is a person
and you have to be able to communicate well
to be able to bring them on the journey with you.
- Absolutely, you know, we just have different elements.
Your weather is a lot different than ours.
So it's still the same journey.
Again, I'm not building a monument to myself.
(37:43):
I have to, it's for clients, right?
So my job is to just lead them up the mountain, right?
They're the hero.
I try to make them the hero in the project, right?
So if I make them the hero
and I'm just the guide to get them there,
then it's a win-win for everybody.
- Oh, that's very story brand of you.
I don't know if you've had a story brand.
It's like a, it's kind of a-
- Ah, look at you.
(38:04):
Who you've been listening to?
(laughing)
You're the guide on the journey.
I like that.
- Yes, those guys have really helped me out a lot actually.
- Yeah, yeah.
It's a beautiful approach, I think.
- It really is.
It makes so much sense.
It's like, wow, I didn't, you know,
so that's the way I try to, when I meet a new client,
(38:25):
that's what I try to explain to them,
that I'm not trying to force any design style on you
or anything.
I'm just trying to get it out of your head
and make it a reality.
- Perfect.
That's cool.
And I'm hoping that this podcast is sort of a little guide
for people as well to help them kickstart
their creative journey if they feel like
they're not creative or to help them bust
(38:47):
through creative blocks if they are experiencing that.
- Just go get a can of upside down spray paint.
That's the, it's upside, it has to be upside down.
'Cause if you take a regular can of spray paint
or own spray, but if you get the upside down,
it works great.
- There you go.
- I'm pro-tip there.
- There you go.
(laughing)
(39:08):
- And yeah, that was Steve Griggs joining me today.
And I also want to say thank you
to everyone who has tuned in to Creativity (39:13):
Uncovered.
If you enjoyed this episode, please do jump online
on Apple or Spotify and give us a rating or review
because that'll help this podcast find its way
to new people who need it.
And if this episode has helped you with your creativity,
I'd love to hear about it.
So please do send me a message
(39:34):
and we can help make the world a bit more
of a creative space.
Thanks so much, until next time.
- Thank you, glad to be here.
Take care.
(upbeat music)
- If you've made it this far, a huge thank you
(40:14):
for your support and tuning into today's episode.
Creativity (40:18):
Uncovered has been lovingly recorded
on the land of the Kabi Kabi people.
And we pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging.
This podcast has been produced
by my amazing team here at Crisp Communications
and the music you just heard was composed by James Gatling.
(40:38):
If you liked this episode, please do share it around
and help us on our mission to unlock more creativity
in this world.
You can also hit subscribe so you don't miss out
on any new episode releases.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.