February 26, 2024 • 36 mins
Maps usually depict places, their physical features, cities, roads, topography…
But, for my guest Sonja Bajic, her maps capture so much more. Her hand drawn maps immortalise your experience, feelings, perspective and memories of a place. And, for Sonja, it’s not just about places; everything can be a map.
Tune into this episode with illustrator, artist and mapmaker Sonja Bajic, to find out:
- How she got into mapmaking
- How anything can be turned into a map
- Why maps help keep memories alive
- How everyone is creative (and can start to make their own maps)
Happy listening!
xo Abi
P.S. For more information about this episode and our guest, head to: www.crispcomms.co/podcast-episodes/life-is-a-map
Creativity: Uncovered is lovingly edited by the team at Crisp Communications.
Creativity: Uncovered is a registered Australian Trade Mark.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Have you ever been clearing out an old handbag or an old suitcase and you come across a ticket
(00:12):
stub, a wrapper or a leaf or something else that just instantly floods you with memory?
And then like what do you do with that item after that?
Do you keep it?
Do you chuck it?
Do you preserve it?
And then how do you keep the memory alive after that time?
Hello, my name is Abi Gatling and welcome to Creativity (00:31):
Uncovered.
This podcast is a journey for me to uncover how everyday people find inspiration, get
inventive and open their imagination.
Basically, I want to find how people find creative solutions and then how they use them
(00:52):
at home, work, play and everything in between.
And my goal for this podcast is that by the end of it, you'll be under the whole suite
of tried and tested ways to find creativity the next time that you need it.
Today I'm speaking with illustrator, artist and map maker Sonja Bajic who basically helps
(01:17):
people preserve their precious memories through map making.
Welcome Sonja.
Hi, Abi.
I'm very happy to be here.
Sonja has gone up so early to be on this podcast with me.
She's over in Paris.
So thank you so much.
Well, I mean, it's early for Paris because nothing starts here before nine.
(01:41):
But like for the, you know, it's seven thirty.
I think it's pretty normal time.
So all good.
In Australia, we get up so ridiculously early because it's so hot.
I know.
So you wouldn't be surprised if you see someone at five or six a.m. out and about doing their
day.
So not for me though.
No, I know.
I mean, so we have, like I come from Serbia originally and we have the expression long
(02:07):
as a summer day until noon, which tells you everything because day starts at five, right?
So you have good seven hours.
And I mean, no, but here nothing starts even in summer before like nine, nine thirty ten.
So this is early, but I'm so happy to be here.
So, you know, and I'm happy about a power of internet that we can talk like, you know,
(02:27):
we're so far away, but hey, we're having a conversation.
So good.
And I'm really, really excited for this conversation because before I met you, I didn't really
think that maps were something that was still being creative because for me, a map was
a factual representation of a place.
(02:50):
And it's not every day.
There's just new places being discovered.
So why would there be new maps?
But your map making is actually a little different to that, isn't it?
Yeah, I do think that every map is personal, no matter how factual.
As you said, I really like how you presented that.
(03:11):
Like it is places are not discovered anymore.
And that's because we learned there's a place and it's a place and that's it.
But like we all know as humans who are experiencing things that one place, depending on how you
feel, how's the weather, how's everything, right, will be a different place in different
(03:37):
circumstances.
And that is how I approach map making, right, through experiences.
Map is not factual for me.
For me, map is there to represent experiences of each of us or a community or your dog or
(03:57):
whatever it is.
Like each of us has a perspective of a place.
And for me, once you realize that, once you open that Google map thing, where you're
in your timeline and you see it and then like your best friend opens and you're looking
and like it's the same city, same place, but a totally different set of experiences,
(04:17):
it's totally different set of emotions.
And if you're presented on a map, you have a little art piece basically.
So yeah.
It's crazy.
It makes so much sense when you say it, but it's not something I naturally would have
ever thought about that a map of your experiences.
(04:41):
And it is so unique to each person, as you said, that everyone visits a place with their
own perspective and experience and takeaways from it.
So what does that actually look like, that type of map?
So it looks like an illustrated map, I would say it.
(05:02):
But it depends how I work with the space, because it is working in a space, is I would
make a list of the things that I would like to represent in one space.
So let's say, if you're drawing a map of food, Paris will look very differently than if you're
(05:22):
drawing a map of monuments, than if you're drawing a map of, I don't know, nightclubs,
it's going to look very differently to the map of pharmacies.
I mean, I'm improvising here, but you understand what I'm saying.
If you ask me to draw a map of the places that you would like to represent, you would
give me a list and I would talk to you.
(05:44):
And when I do custom made maps and personalized maps, it's very much presenting the place,
the moment, the memory as you experienced it.
And for me, that's like, I ask usually my clients to send me a photos, like tell me,
like we meet on Zoom and we just have a conversation about like, what would you like that place
(06:07):
to be represented with.
Now, when I work with like bigger clients and with like businesses, it's usually very
much like we would like to have here like a little pictogram of this or a little drawing
of that, like, or people like working in the office, because we are like opening a new
office next to the, I don't know, like Highline or something, right?
So it's a, it really, it gives you like, you know, as now, like every person within that
(06:35):
office and every client will have a totally different perspective of that place.
And that's fascinating, you know, because I drew, I mean, I draw various a lot because
I live here, but I drew like from Milwaukee to Sydney, like, you know, all the places.
So and it's like, you talk to people and the same place is different in everyone's eyes.
(06:57):
And I think that's so beautiful, because that's, you know, that's that, like, goes back to
your like, talk about creativity.
It's like, like, you know, that innate creativity within humans, like a creativity or experience
where you're just like understanding what you just, what just happened and it affected
you and you wanted to have it on an illustrated map.
(07:20):
Sorry, this is a long answer, like how those map look like.
It is, I mean, it's fascinating.
So you're basically, you're still drawing what we essentially consider to be a map.
So it's still a location, but you're adding in elements that are significant to a memory
or an experience.
(07:41):
Is that correct?
Correct.
Because I do think you have to have to understand that it's, it's Paris.
You will always draw an Eiffel Tower, right?
Or you're going to draw like the Lou or something that is like, if you want actually to have
just to like, there is still like the map of streets.
(08:03):
There is there are still names of the streets, but there are some of the monuments if you
decide to, if I decide to put them in, right?
But then if I decide to add like some, like my map of like some around this month, right,
of a part of the city, it's going to be very different than yours.
(08:27):
So let's say you come and you visit, then you go to bakery number one, bakery number
two, you have like, you're reading a book in park one, right?
And maybe I'm going to go to the same places and going to present them on my map, but I'll
still going to have the same scheme.
Basically, it's a diagram of streets, right?
(08:49):
And then I would have like, you know, maybe bakery number one, but I didn't like bakery
number two.
So I would have a bakery number four and five because I ate a lot of croissants.
And then I would have also, you know, like a park number two, instead of your park number
one.
And that like it sounds very, um, mathematic, but it's far from that.
(09:09):
It's like just very, um, experiential, I'd say that.
So yeah, it's very much, um, I present on a map what I, what that place reminds me of.
I mean, that's, that's very cool because, you know, quite often if you're trying to
(09:32):
recount a story back to someone, you're like, do you remember when we did that thing and
then this happened and that happened and like, I don't know.
I can't remember this.
And you go, you ate that really good croissant.
And it was on there.
They're thinking, oh my gosh, yep.
I know exactly what you're talking about now.
And that's, that's the thing.
We do remember places through colors, through tastes, through sounds.
(09:56):
And you know, I mean, we know that from psychology, but this is, um, like I find it, um, I find
it, I have like a client at the moment who has like the list of 28 places on her map
of Paris, because she has been living here for a while and she's just like, I need to
send you photos because like you want, you know, like I want you to show that those experiences
(10:18):
like on a map, you know, this or that way.
But I mean, it's, um, I think it's a very nice way to record your memories, basically.
Right.
And then you do, like I record my memories.
I went to Barcelona and then I would be like, you know, drawing like, like little, like
(10:38):
imagine Google map, but illustrated, right?
With all those little spots, but like instead of like ice cream joint and a dot, you actually
have like a cone with like lavender ice cream and I don't know, Taurus, like flavored ice
cream.
Right.
So, is that kind of thing?
(11:00):
So it's a very, um, it's playful.
It's playful and sentimental.
So you can get quite specific.
So instead of being, this is my favorite place where I had ice cream, I had lavender ice cream
with, you know, this on top.
Wow.
That, I mean, that's very evocative.
I can imagine.
(11:20):
And so is it just people's holidays that they're trying to get you to capture or what, what
are they, what are people asking for maps for?
So, I started drawing maps when I moved to Paris 12 years ago and I would be like drawing,
you know, on the margins.
So we didn't have Google maps, believe it or not, back in the day.
So there was a life before Google and in that life I would just draw like, oh, gallery opening
(11:45):
in that, in that street.
I would draw a little like map of the streets and like little, I don't know, brush or something
depending on what I saw.
And my friends would start like asking me to, to draw a map.
So for example, their life in Paris, right?
Because I know a lot of expats and they spend, I don't know, like two, three, five years
here and they were like, can you draw a map of Paris, of my life in Paris and how it looked
(12:07):
like.
And then they move further away and then they basically have map as a part of the creation
in their home in, I don't know, Sydney or New York or anywhere.
And nowadays I do a lot of maps for like bigger clients so that it would be like hotels or
(12:27):
it would be the maps of like local festivals, like, you know, like Francis Big.
So there's a lot of like little festivals here and there.
And with my B2C clients, so like private clients, it's very often holidays, mostly the people
who come to Paris and they're like searching for non-tackies to be here, you know, something
(12:52):
that would be like made by an artist but still like personal and like huge but not like,
you know, like pretentious.
So either like those memories, there are a lot of people who want their, like I do maps
as wedding gifts, a lot of them.
(13:12):
That's how I drew Sydney actually, like for a couple, their friends asked me to draw a
giant map of Sydney for them.
Then I draw also for like big, big, big, like birthdays, like 50 and 60 birthday, there
are a lot of those like people who traveled, for example, around or lived around the States,
(13:35):
right?
So they like different places or people who actually just spent their time, like I drew
New York for a friend of mine, her grandmother, like, you know, it was just like bunch of
places where she spent her days basically, you know, because that is what it is.
So like, you know, she's French, she has been living in New York for like very long time,
(13:59):
like, you know, it's still not her city per se and she wanted all those little drawings
that, you know, like we all have in our lives.
So she wanted that on a map.
So it's, it's really big.
I, there's a lot of different occasions for why I drew a map for, but yeah.
Yeah, sounds like you got a lot of varieties.
I didn't realize you drew as big as a country.
(14:23):
So obviously it's, you don't have, you don't have streets on the country, right?
You've just got some.
Like what level of detail do you have in that?
I would draw roads.
So you need to have something that would be, that would make a map look like map, right?
So it would, when I drew the map of the United States, it would like, you know, you have a
(14:46):
shape, you have Mexico down, you have Canada up there.
But then like, I think those roads actually make map look like map and like typography
would give certain charm, you put the little, like different textures, right?
So it needs to, I mean, you know, I'm, it's a, it's a creative endeavor.
(15:08):
So I want to look at very, I want it to look very pretty.
So there's a lot of, you know, that, but like it would be, depending on what I'm showing,
like if I'm showing a country, like I would draw probably roads.
But that being said, I had a, somewhere in my Instagram, I had a, I drew a map of a house.
(15:31):
My clients cat died and she wanted a plan of the house.
So basically the cat's world.
So where she spent her days, right?
So in that case, you don't have streets, you don't have roads, you don't have highways.
So it would, it was just the plan of the house where the cats slept, where she played where,
(15:52):
so you know, there's a, I mean, any, like my whole motto is like life is a map because
anything can be a map.
So I love that.
Life is a map.
It is.
I should put it, this wall is waiting for a lot of art.
So I should probably like buy a neon sign that says life is a map.
(16:13):
Life is a map.
Yes.
So I think that's the next thing about the cat, the cat thing in the house, because that
seems to require quite a lot of creativity on your client side to even have the idea
that this is something that could be turned into a map.
Well, it really, I think people would have, I mean, you know how creative people are.
(16:39):
I really think everybody's creative.
I really do think, right?
It just depends what they told them in when they were eight years old, right?
You're good at maths.
Like go, you don't know homework or like, oh, you're like art, go paint, right?
So that's how, and then you just either become this or that.
But like, I do think that everybody's creative.
(17:01):
It just depends on how much you decide to develop it, right?
And some of those clients know my work very well.
Really takes two to six months for people to actually find a way they want, what they
want on a map.
So it would very often happen that like you would buy a map for your best friend, right?
(17:24):
And she never heard of my work.
So she would mean time to actually like think what she wants to order from me, right?
But like, I do try to, like putting a lot of things on Instagram and just like being
present.
And I do show people that like, I do really think that anything can be a map.
So I'm hoping I'm going to inspire people to find what they really want to show on
(17:51):
a map, right?
So that cat lady, she was like, yeah, like this just like I really like cat was very
precious part of our family.
So I really want this.
And like, that's cat's world.
Like it didn't go, you know, there was a little stream and like a tree outside of the house,
the rest of it, that's the limits of her world.
(18:11):
So I mean, it really depends who I'm working with.
Some people are just like, they just send me the list of the things that they experienced
in, I don't know, like, Paris, right?
So you just draw that.
And then you make it look very creative.
But like, I do always try to invite people to be playful, because I think we forget to
(18:32):
be playful.
So, yeah, it can be as creative as you want or not, you know, like if you're if you're
not if you don't think you're creative, I'll find I'll try to help you with that.
And if you send me like something quirky, I'll find a way to present that as well.
So yeah, that's cool.
(18:53):
Do you find it hard to draw places that you have never been?
So that for example, the map of Sydney, have you ever been to Sydney before?
Do you have frame of reference for drawing that?
Or how do you get into that zone?
Yeah, I've been to Sydney, but I had, like, for example, to draw Milwaukee and like a
couple of the cities in the States that, oh, Abi
, I found it fascinating because then I
(19:17):
have a good excuse to watch all the YouTube videos about that place.
Because, you know, you cannot only just draw a map of the streets, you actually need to
understand the general vibe, right?
So Southern cities going to look very different to the cities in the north, right?
So and for me, that is like I watched so many videos about Milwaukee that I would say I
(19:41):
want to go to Milwaukee.
This is it.
Like it's so cool because like, you know, it's a nice tourist videos that you can find
on YouTube and like, and then when you watch, I don't know, Criminal Minds or something where
there's a place in the States that you drew, you're like, oh, I know this place, you know,
so you're getting.
But it's, no, no, it's not hard to draw.
(20:01):
It's because you, I'm trained as a urban planner and architect.
So I'm just like, you need to, you need your approach from your approach place from a technical
point, right?
And then to understand it better, you just do like a little research, I mean, little
research, four hours, five hours of actually like the place.
(20:21):
And then, you know, you go on Instagram and see all those little photos and like what
are the most important places.
And then you go inside of the museums of local places.
So I really like that.
I'm very curious.
So for me, it's a beautiful process that makes me very happy.
So yeah.
Wow.
So there's a lot of research and exploration that goes on before you even start to put
(20:45):
pen to paper.
Yeah.
So it would be like, there's that part where I'm actually asking for from clients to give
me what they like really want to be presented on the map.
And like, you know, it's a, like I am a person sitting in Paris.
So it's a bit of like, like, I like zoom calls.
I like talking to them just to see them and I'm like flesh and blood and that I really
(21:09):
want their photos so I can present it really well on the map, right?
There's that part.
There's a part where you actually, yeah, you really research and you really write things
down and you get, you want to understand the vibe of the city so you can get inspired as
well.
Right.
(21:29):
It's like, it's not only just presenting place well, but like I want this place to inspire
me and any place have power to do that if you search deep enough.
And I think that's the beauty of exploration.
So yeah.
Yeah.
And that's, that's awesome that you kind of feel like you could be traveling around the
world while you're doing all these different things, but you're in your studio in Paris
(21:52):
and just being in Florida.
It's a dream.
It's a dream, right?
Like, you know, like when we were kids you buy national geographic and you look at those,
all those birds, it's like very similar things.
So you're just like, oh, look at this, you know, so it's a beautiful process.
It takes time, but it's a good excuse to travel.
(22:14):
And I mean, one of my favorite things is going on Google Maps, you know, when you have street
view, so actually seeing the little houses and all of that.
So it's, and how people are dressed up because you know, usually head is blurred, but you
see what people are wearing, you know, on the, on the Google street map.
So it's, it's funny.
(22:34):
Yeah.
There's a fair amount of stalking that goes on as well.
I won't tell anyone.
Luckily this isn't being broadcast anymore.
So tell me, I feel like the, the cat thing, I keep going back to that, because that just
seems like such a cool concept for a map and I could totally see myself doing that for,
(22:55):
you know, my dog or whatever.
But what is the, what's the weirdest, what's the weirdest map you've been asked to draw?
That's a good question.
There's no, yeah, map, like the cat, cat map is very cute, right?
But like, there were not many really weird, weird things.
(23:19):
There's usually some parts of the map, some locations, some moments, some emotions that
would go into a map and you'd be like, you would draw that, right?
It's, because it's very personalized.
So you would have people having something in their head and wanting you to present something
(23:40):
the way they see the place.
And it's, I mean, it's not really weird.
It's just the way, like, you'd be like, but that's not, you know, I understand it's your
map, but we, how to present that in that sense.
It's impossible.
Like people would ask for impossible ways to present things, so to say, right?
(24:02):
So they would ask me to, for example, they would like a map of Paris and like everything
is happening in one neighborhood.
So I would draw everything in one neighborhood and they would be like, no, but we want a whole
map of Paris.
So like, I would be like, but then you have nothing around and just that, but there would
be, I don't know, I don't have any like weird, weird stories to tell you like about the like
(24:26):
overall map, right?
So it wasn't like, it's a, I do like maybe the most interesting things that I do is there's
a cocktail bar in Paris that every six months changes the menu.
It's like one of those peaky, easy places.
It's called Bluebird.
It's really pretty.
And they have a map of cocktails, right?
(24:50):
That is like an accordion.
That's how the menu look like.
I think you would love this.
So and then in the middle of the, of that accordion, that is where their main cocktail, the signature
cocktail is.
And then to the right is more alcohol to the left is less alcohol.
Up is richer.
(25:14):
Down is like less rich, right?
And then you have cocktails all around that map.
It's more of a diagram, right?
But usually we use those two lines as roads, right?
And then we would be like the team for this, these next six months is Texas or the team
for the next six months is Japan.
(25:36):
So basically I would use the menu and all the cocktail names to represent a map of a
place.
It sounds very meta, but it's very cute.
And we started from really from Texas, right?
No, from California, Arizona, that area.
So that was the first map.
I mean, but it's not a place.
(25:58):
It's just the vibe.
And then we went all the way to universe.
So I think we're now at the end of our journey where it is like everything exploded and the
map doesn't look like map anymore.
It's more of a menu.
But that is a, I wouldn't say weird, but that is something that was interesting, you know,
to see the journey of how the client thought of what he wants to represent.
(26:22):
It was two guys.
And then all the way to the, you know, map map where I represent something.
So yeah.
I'm sorry.
No, no weird stories.
No Kingsley stories.
I mean, that's cool.
I mean, we're weird in the, I guess lateral thinking sense.
And that certainly covers that off that.
(26:43):
Yeah.
The map of the flavors and linking that to the two cities and stuff.
That's really cool.
And also we, when we're speaking the last time, you were talking about the connection
between maps and writing and you're doing a writing tour.
Can you tell me a little bit about that?
(27:04):
Oh, that was fantastic.
Okay.
You're talking, no, because I do a lot of writing and I do, nobody sees my writing except on
sub stack where I talk about theories and, you know, what moves me.
But it's good.
Yeah.
So I went down to Provence in a month ago.
It was exactly month ago and I was teaching a workshop to 20 Australian women.
(27:27):
That were traveling around France.
Right.
So they would experiencing their life in Paris through writing.
Right.
And there was a woman from Melbourne who was basically doing writing retreat workshops.
So all of that.
So I met them in Paris and then I went down to Provence and it was such an incredibly
(27:53):
inspiring like crowd of women because like writers with a lot of ideas with a lot of
like, you know, and you're like in France and it's just beginning of the fall.
Like an autumn is the beautiful season here.
So they're all very inspired by everything they're writing.
And then what I was teaching, I teach a creativity workshops.
(28:15):
It's map making workshops.
And basically we are moving like a whole perspective from like place where you sit and write.
We came to the perspective to the perspective where you actually sit and draw.
Right.
So we did the whole map making workshop was about the same experiences that they wrote
(28:39):
about for probably like seven, eight, 10 days.
But now they had a chance actually to represent their experiences through a drawing.
And I find it very funny because you come in front of the adults because I do this with
kids as well.
But you come in front of adults and people freak out because you're like, I don't know
how to draw.
(28:59):
What have you been drawing a map that sounds so scary.
And then they sit and you see that they're just like, walk, they've woken up that little
kid, you know, that has been dormant for so many years, right?
Or would appear every now and then.
And basically they drew their map.
So like there were 18 of them and 18 of them like did a fantastic job.
(29:24):
I was so impressed.
Like it was so good.
So some of them were traveling like Rome, Paris, and then like Australia.
So they presented that some of them were traveling like around Europe before.
Or after.
So they would like leave a space for when they can actually add something on their map.
(29:47):
But like there was not one single person that was just like, oh, I don't know how to draw.
I'm not going to do this.
So I have like it lasts two and a half hours, three hours.
So the first hour, hour and a half, we actually talk about experiences.
And that whole writing thing is a place where like we because like that's not scary for any
(30:09):
of us, right?
So I just sit down and I give exercises and we develop those like true writing.
And then your creative like muscle is woken and like they it's like ready to go.
And then I give them colors like watercolors and gouache and like whatever, you know, I
have so much material around me.
(30:30):
So I just bring them that and I'm just like, use it like no mistakes.
The only the only rule is that there's no eraser because I just want them to like, you
know, make mistakes in pain.
And it's fascinating.
It's really like I am so happy to to see that like spark in them, you know, when when they
(30:52):
when they participate in my in my workshop.
So I am having on sub stack right now.
It's a I do it's called map your days.
Like until the end of the year, I'm going to have it's a free challenge, little prompts
from my workshops that I just write about.
(31:12):
And I'm actually inviting my readers and people who follow me just to like join us in the
creative endeavor, because I think it's just we need to like, I think the creativity is
antidote to everything happening around us.
So it's it's healthy for us to, you know, find a way to break from the news and the
loop of the bad news.
(31:33):
So yeah, come join us.
Yeah.
Oh, cool.
I think you can pop your link to your sub stack in our show notes so anyone can find
that.
But I love that it sounds like a really non confronting, non scary way to, yeah, as you
said, reawaken that in a child and just start doodling and start drawing.
(31:54):
I think that's really cool.
And everybody loves that, you know, you have from the doctors and like surgeons to like
actually creatives writers and everybody's enjoying it in the same way.
And you're like, oh, so good.
Yeah, that's cool.
I feel like we just need more excuses to actually just do that and have fun and play around
(32:15):
with it.
I think what's really cool about your story is that this map making seems to be a really
cool calm like culmination of all your experiences.
You said you're an urban planner.
You're also an illustrator.
And it's coming together in this really cool way that is just helping other people relive
(32:40):
their memories.
And that's really, that's really sweet.
I like that.
Well, thank you.
Yeah, I think it is, as you said, it's a culmination.
It's a good explanation of my life and everything, you know, that I, you know, not living in
my own country and like living around and all of that.
And it's just like, I do like generally like the experience is very important for me.
(33:08):
Like it is, like I want people to have good experiences, right?
I mean, if they're like communicating with me or like in life, generally, I mean, it
sounds like very well, obviously, but like, I like it's something that is just like so
I love experiencing new things, right?
(33:30):
And yeah, they can be good, they can be bad.
But I think putting them on a map is like seeing your life and what you did and how you spend
time.
And it's just like, it's all fascinating, you know, because it's such a simple way to
present something, you know, I'm like, even if you live in the same street or your life,
(33:52):
you do things differently in different parts of your life.
And I think that's like, when you just thinking about that makes me feel like warm and fuzzy,
you know, so, and that's the whole idea to, you know, I'm hoping that those maps make
people feel warm and fuzzy.
Oh, that's beautiful.
(34:13):
Oh, and thank you so much for sharing this story with us today.
And I'm so intrigued by the idea of everything's a map.
I'm going to have to start thinking about what I can map out as well.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, I think designers are really good at drawing diagrams, right?
So it's a try like I usually tell to my designer friends, like go and try like presenting something
(34:37):
as diagram and then, you know, you will loosen up and some point you're going to be start
drawing maps because it's it's fascinating.
So but thank you for inviting me.
I'm really happy that we had this talk.
So and yeah, thanks for all the questions.
They made me think early in the morning in Paris.
You did very well for so early in the morning.
(34:59):
I don't know if you noticed, but I actually have two cups.
No, I think one is C because I just prepared for all situations.
No, I appreciate it.
Yeah, I definitely appreciate you getting up early and making the time for me.
And I also want to say thank you to everyone who's tuned into this episode of Creativity:
(35:22):
Uncovered.
I hope that this episode has inspired you to start and just try and doodle and if not
the reflection of, you know, reflecting on your life and significant moments will be
a great experience anyway.
And I also hope that it helps you summon your creativity the next time that you need it.
.
(36:10):
If you've made it this far, a huge thank you for your support and tuning into today's
episode.
Creativity (36:17):
Uncovered has been lovingly recorded on the land of the Kabi Kabi people and
we pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging.
This podcast has been produced by my amazing team here at Crisp Communications and the
music you just heard was composed by James Gatling.
If you liked this episode, please do share it around and help us on our mission to unlock
(36:43):
more creativity in this world.
You can also hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any new episode releases.
Oh
Have you ever been clearing out an old handbag or an old suitcase and you come across a ticket
(00:12):
stub, a wrapper or a leaf or something else that just instantly floods you with memory?
And then like what do you do with that item after that?
Do you keep it?
Do you chuck it?
Do you preserve it?
And then how do you keep the memory alive after that time?
Hello, my name is Abi Gatling and welcome to Creativity (00:31):
Uncovered.
This podcast is a journey for me to uncover how everyday people find inspiration, get
inventive and open their imagination.
Basically, I want to find how people find creative solutions and then how they use them
(00:52):
at home, work, play and everything in between.
And my goal for this podcast is that by the end of it, you'll be under the whole suite
of tried and tested ways to find creativity the next time that you need it.
Today I'm speaking with illustrator, artist and map maker Sonja Bajic who basically helps
(01:17):
people preserve their precious memories through map making.
Welcome Sonja.
Hi, Abi.
I'm very happy to be here.
Sonja has gone up so early to be on this podcast with me.
She's over in Paris.
So thank you so much.
Well, I mean, it's early for Paris because nothing starts here before nine.
(01:41):
But like for the, you know, it's seven thirty.
I think it's pretty normal time.
So all good.
In Australia, we get up so ridiculously early because it's so hot.
I know.
So you wouldn't be surprised if you see someone at five or six a.m. out and about doing their
day.
So not for me though.
No, I know.
I mean, so we have, like I come from Serbia originally and we have the expression long
(02:07):
as a summer day until noon, which tells you everything because day starts at five, right?
So you have good seven hours.
And I mean, no, but here nothing starts even in summer before like nine, nine thirty ten.
So this is early, but I'm so happy to be here.
So, you know, and I'm happy about a power of internet that we can talk like, you know,
(02:27):
we're so far away, but hey, we're having a conversation.
So good.
And I'm really, really excited for this conversation because before I met you, I didn't really
think that maps were something that was still being creative because for me, a map was
a factual representation of a place.
(02:50):
And it's not every day.
There's just new places being discovered.
So why would there be new maps?
But your map making is actually a little different to that, isn't it?
Yeah, I do think that every map is personal, no matter how factual.
As you said, I really like how you presented that.
(03:11):
Like it is places are not discovered anymore.
And that's because we learned there's a place and it's a place and that's it.
But like we all know as humans who are experiencing things that one place, depending on how you
feel, how's the weather, how's everything, right, will be a different place in different
(03:37):
circumstances.
And that is how I approach map making, right, through experiences.
Map is not factual for me.
For me, map is there to represent experiences of each of us or a community or your dog or
(03:57):
whatever it is.
Like each of us has a perspective of a place.
And for me, once you realize that, once you open that Google map thing, where you're
in your timeline and you see it and then like your best friend opens and you're looking
and like it's the same city, same place, but a totally different set of experiences,
(04:17):
it's totally different set of emotions.
And if you're presented on a map, you have a little art piece basically.
So yeah.
It's crazy.
It makes so much sense when you say it, but it's not something I naturally would have
ever thought about that a map of your experiences.
(04:41):
And it is so unique to each person, as you said, that everyone visits a place with their
own perspective and experience and takeaways from it.
So what does that actually look like, that type of map?
So it looks like an illustrated map, I would say it.
(05:02):
But it depends how I work with the space, because it is working in a space, is I would
make a list of the things that I would like to represent in one space.
So let's say, if you're drawing a map of food, Paris will look very differently than if you're
(05:22):
drawing a map of monuments, than if you're drawing a map of, I don't know, nightclubs,
it's going to look very differently to the map of pharmacies.
I mean, I'm improvising here, but you understand what I'm saying.
If you ask me to draw a map of the places that you would like to represent, you would
give me a list and I would talk to you.
(05:44):
And when I do custom made maps and personalized maps, it's very much presenting the place,
the moment, the memory as you experienced it.
And for me, that's like, I ask usually my clients to send me a photos, like tell me,
like we meet on Zoom and we just have a conversation about like, what would you like that place
(06:07):
to be represented with.
Now, when I work with like bigger clients and with like businesses, it's usually very
much like we would like to have here like a little pictogram of this or a little drawing
of that, like, or people like working in the office, because we are like opening a new
office next to the, I don't know, like Highline or something, right?
So it's a, it really, it gives you like, you know, as now, like every person within that
(06:35):
office and every client will have a totally different perspective of that place.
And that's fascinating, you know, because I drew, I mean, I draw various a lot because
I live here, but I drew like from Milwaukee to Sydney, like, you know, all the places.
So and it's like, you talk to people and the same place is different in everyone's eyes.
(06:57):
And I think that's so beautiful, because that's, you know, that's that, like, goes back to
your like, talk about creativity.
It's like, like, you know, that innate creativity within humans, like a creativity or experience
where you're just like understanding what you just, what just happened and it affected
you and you wanted to have it on an illustrated map.
(07:20):
Sorry, this is a long answer, like how those map look like.
It is, I mean, it's fascinating.
So you're basically, you're still drawing what we essentially consider to be a map.
So it's still a location, but you're adding in elements that are significant to a memory
or an experience.
(07:41):
Is that correct?
Correct.
Because I do think you have to have to understand that it's, it's Paris.
You will always draw an Eiffel Tower, right?
Or you're going to draw like the Lou or something that is like, if you want actually to have
just to like, there is still like the map of streets.
(08:03):
There is there are still names of the streets, but there are some of the monuments if you
decide to, if I decide to put them in, right?
But then if I decide to add like some, like my map of like some around this month, right,
of a part of the city, it's going to be very different than yours.
(08:27):
So let's say you come and you visit, then you go to bakery number one, bakery number
two, you have like, you're reading a book in park one, right?
And maybe I'm going to go to the same places and going to present them on my map, but I'll
still going to have the same scheme.
Basically, it's a diagram of streets, right?
(08:49):
And then I would have like, you know, maybe bakery number one, but I didn't like bakery
number two.
So I would have a bakery number four and five because I ate a lot of croissants.
And then I would have also, you know, like a park number two, instead of your park number
one.
And that like it sounds very, um, mathematic, but it's far from that.
(09:09):
It's like just very, um, experiential, I'd say that.
So yeah, it's very much, um, I present on a map what I, what that place reminds me of.
I mean, that's, that's very cool because, you know, quite often if you're trying to
(09:32):
recount a story back to someone, you're like, do you remember when we did that thing and
then this happened and that happened and like, I don't know.
I can't remember this.
And you go, you ate that really good croissant.
And it was on there.
They're thinking, oh my gosh, yep.
I know exactly what you're talking about now.
And that's, that's the thing.
We do remember places through colors, through tastes, through sounds.
(09:56):
And you know, I mean, we know that from psychology, but this is, um, like I find it, um, I find
it, I have like a client at the moment who has like the list of 28 places on her map
of Paris, because she has been living here for a while and she's just like, I need to
send you photos because like you want, you know, like I want you to show that those experiences
(10:18):
like on a map, you know, this or that way.
But I mean, it's, um, I think it's a very nice way to record your memories, basically.
Right.
And then you do, like I record my memories.
I went to Barcelona and then I would be like, you know, drawing like, like little, like
(10:38):
imagine Google map, but illustrated, right?
With all those little spots, but like instead of like ice cream joint and a dot, you actually
have like a cone with like lavender ice cream and I don't know, Taurus, like flavored ice
cream.
Right.
So, is that kind of thing?
(11:00):
So it's a very, um, it's playful.
It's playful and sentimental.
So you can get quite specific.
So instead of being, this is my favorite place where I had ice cream, I had lavender ice cream
with, you know, this on top.
Wow.
That, I mean, that's very evocative.
I can imagine.
(11:20):
And so is it just people's holidays that they're trying to get you to capture or what, what
are they, what are people asking for maps for?
So, I started drawing maps when I moved to Paris 12 years ago and I would be like drawing,
you know, on the margins.
So we didn't have Google maps, believe it or not, back in the day.
So there was a life before Google and in that life I would just draw like, oh, gallery opening
(11:45):
in that, in that street.
I would draw a little like map of the streets and like little, I don't know, brush or something
depending on what I saw.
And my friends would start like asking me to, to draw a map.
So for example, their life in Paris, right?
Because I know a lot of expats and they spend, I don't know, like two, three, five years
here and they were like, can you draw a map of Paris, of my life in Paris and how it looked
(12:07):
like.
And then they move further away and then they basically have map as a part of the creation
in their home in, I don't know, Sydney or New York or anywhere.
And nowadays I do a lot of maps for like bigger clients so that it would be like hotels or
(12:27):
it would be the maps of like local festivals, like, you know, like Francis Big.
So there's a lot of like little festivals here and there.
And with my B2C clients, so like private clients, it's very often holidays, mostly the people
who come to Paris and they're like searching for non-tackies to be here, you know, something
(12:52):
that would be like made by an artist but still like personal and like huge but not like,
you know, like pretentious.
So either like those memories, there are a lot of people who want their, like I do maps
as wedding gifts, a lot of them.
(13:12):
That's how I drew Sydney actually, like for a couple, their friends asked me to draw a
giant map of Sydney for them.
Then I draw also for like big, big, big, like birthdays, like 50 and 60 birthday, there
are a lot of those like people who traveled, for example, around or lived around the States,
(13:35):
right?
So they like different places or people who actually just spent their time, like I drew
New York for a friend of mine, her grandmother, like, you know, it was just like bunch of
places where she spent her days basically, you know, because that is what it is.
So like, you know, she's French, she has been living in New York for like very long time,
(13:59):
like, you know, it's still not her city per se and she wanted all those little drawings
that, you know, like we all have in our lives.
So she wanted that on a map.
So it's, it's really big.
I, there's a lot of different occasions for why I drew a map for, but yeah.
Yeah, sounds like you got a lot of varieties.
I didn't realize you drew as big as a country.
(14:23):
So obviously it's, you don't have, you don't have streets on the country, right?
You've just got some.
Like what level of detail do you have in that?
I would draw roads.
So you need to have something that would be, that would make a map look like map, right?
So it would, when I drew the map of the United States, it would like, you know, you have a
(14:46):
shape, you have Mexico down, you have Canada up there.
But then like, I think those roads actually make map look like map and like typography
would give certain charm, you put the little, like different textures, right?
So it needs to, I mean, you know, I'm, it's a, it's a creative endeavor.
(15:08):
So I want to look at very, I want it to look very pretty.
So there's a lot of, you know, that, but like it would be, depending on what I'm showing,
like if I'm showing a country, like I would draw probably roads.
But that being said, I had a, somewhere in my Instagram, I had a, I drew a map of a house.
(15:31):
My clients cat died and she wanted a plan of the house.
So basically the cat's world.
So where she spent her days, right?
So in that case, you don't have streets, you don't have roads, you don't have highways.
So it would, it was just the plan of the house where the cats slept, where she played where,
(15:52):
so you know, there's a, I mean, any, like my whole motto is like life is a map because
anything can be a map.
So I love that.
Life is a map.
It is.
I should put it, this wall is waiting for a lot of art.
So I should probably like buy a neon sign that says life is a map.
(16:13):
Life is a map.
Yes.
So I think that's the next thing about the cat, the cat thing in the house, because that
seems to require quite a lot of creativity on your client side to even have the idea
that this is something that could be turned into a map.
Well, it really, I think people would have, I mean, you know how creative people are.
(16:39):
I really think everybody's creative.
I really do think, right?
It just depends what they told them in when they were eight years old, right?
You're good at maths.
Like go, you don't know homework or like, oh, you're like art, go paint, right?
So that's how, and then you just either become this or that.
But like, I do think that everybody's creative.
(17:01):
It just depends on how much you decide to develop it, right?
And some of those clients know my work very well.
Really takes two to six months for people to actually find a way they want, what they
want on a map.
So it would very often happen that like you would buy a map for your best friend, right?
(17:24):
And she never heard of my work.
So she would mean time to actually like think what she wants to order from me, right?
But like, I do try to, like putting a lot of things on Instagram and just like being
present.
And I do show people that like, I do really think that anything can be a map.
So I'm hoping I'm going to inspire people to find what they really want to show on
(17:51):
a map, right?
So that cat lady, she was like, yeah, like this just like I really like cat was very
precious part of our family.
So I really want this.
And like, that's cat's world.
Like it didn't go, you know, there was a little stream and like a tree outside of the house,
the rest of it, that's the limits of her world.
(18:11):
So I mean, it really depends who I'm working with.
Some people are just like, they just send me the list of the things that they experienced
in, I don't know, like, Paris, right?
So you just draw that.
And then you make it look very creative.
But like, I do always try to invite people to be playful, because I think we forget to
(18:32):
be playful.
So, yeah, it can be as creative as you want or not, you know, like if you're if you're
not if you don't think you're creative, I'll find I'll try to help you with that.
And if you send me like something quirky, I'll find a way to present that as well.
So yeah, that's cool.
(18:53):
Do you find it hard to draw places that you have never been?
So that for example, the map of Sydney, have you ever been to Sydney before?
Do you have frame of reference for drawing that?
Or how do you get into that zone?
Yeah, I've been to Sydney, but I had, like, for example, to draw Milwaukee and like a
couple of the cities in the States that, oh, Abi
, I found it fascinating because then I
(19:17):
have a good excuse to watch all the YouTube videos about that place.
Because, you know, you cannot only just draw a map of the streets, you actually need to
understand the general vibe, right?
So Southern cities going to look very different to the cities in the north, right?
So and for me, that is like I watched so many videos about Milwaukee that I would say I
(19:41):
want to go to Milwaukee.
This is it.
Like it's so cool because like, you know, it's a nice tourist videos that you can find
on YouTube and like, and then when you watch, I don't know, Criminal Minds or something where
there's a place in the States that you drew, you're like, oh, I know this place, you know,
so you're getting.
But it's, no, no, it's not hard to draw.
(20:01):
It's because you, I'm trained as a urban planner and architect.
So I'm just like, you need to, you need your approach from your approach place from a technical
point, right?
And then to understand it better, you just do like a little research, I mean, little
research, four hours, five hours of actually like the place.
(20:21):
And then, you know, you go on Instagram and see all those little photos and like what
are the most important places.
And then you go inside of the museums of local places.
So I really like that.
I'm very curious.
So for me, it's a beautiful process that makes me very happy.
So yeah.
Wow.
So there's a lot of research and exploration that goes on before you even start to put
(20:45):
pen to paper.
Yeah.
So it would be like, there's that part where I'm actually asking for from clients to give
me what they like really want to be presented on the map.
And like, you know, it's a, like I am a person sitting in Paris.
So it's a bit of like, like, I like zoom calls.
I like talking to them just to see them and I'm like flesh and blood and that I really
(21:09):
want their photos so I can present it really well on the map, right?
There's that part.
There's a part where you actually, yeah, you really research and you really write things
down and you get, you want to understand the vibe of the city so you can get inspired as
well.
Right.
(21:29):
It's like, it's not only just presenting place well, but like I want this place to inspire
me and any place have power to do that if you search deep enough.
And I think that's the beauty of exploration.
So yeah.
Yeah.
And that's, that's awesome that you kind of feel like you could be traveling around the
world while you're doing all these different things, but you're in your studio in Paris
(21:52):
and just being in Florida.
It's a dream.
It's a dream, right?
Like, you know, like when we were kids you buy national geographic and you look at those,
all those birds, it's like very similar things.
So you're just like, oh, look at this, you know, so it's a beautiful process.
It takes time, but it's a good excuse to travel.
(22:14):
And I mean, one of my favorite things is going on Google Maps, you know, when you have street
view, so actually seeing the little houses and all of that.
So it's, and how people are dressed up because you know, usually head is blurred, but you
see what people are wearing, you know, on the, on the Google street map.
So it's, it's funny.
(22:34):
Yeah.
There's a fair amount of stalking that goes on as well.
I won't tell anyone.
Luckily this isn't being broadcast anymore.
So tell me, I feel like the, the cat thing, I keep going back to that, because that just
seems like such a cool concept for a map and I could totally see myself doing that for,
(22:55):
you know, my dog or whatever.
But what is the, what's the weirdest, what's the weirdest map you've been asked to draw?
That's a good question.
There's no, yeah, map, like the cat, cat map is very cute, right?
But like, there were not many really weird, weird things.
(23:19):
There's usually some parts of the map, some locations, some moments, some emotions that
would go into a map and you'd be like, you would draw that, right?
It's, because it's very personalized.
So you would have people having something in their head and wanting you to present something
(23:40):
the way they see the place.
And it's, I mean, it's not really weird.
It's just the way, like, you'd be like, but that's not, you know, I understand it's your
map, but we, how to present that in that sense.
It's impossible.
Like people would ask for impossible ways to present things, so to say, right?
(24:02):
So they would ask me to, for example, they would like a map of Paris and like everything
is happening in one neighborhood.
So I would draw everything in one neighborhood and they would be like, no, but we want a whole
map of Paris.
So like, I would be like, but then you have nothing around and just that, but there would
be, I don't know, I don't have any like weird, weird stories to tell you like about the like
(24:26):
overall map, right?
So it wasn't like, it's a, I do like maybe the most interesting things that I do is there's
a cocktail bar in Paris that every six months changes the menu.
It's like one of those peaky, easy places.
It's called Bluebird.
It's really pretty.
And they have a map of cocktails, right?
(24:50):
That is like an accordion.
That's how the menu look like.
I think you would love this.
So and then in the middle of the, of that accordion, that is where their main cocktail, the signature
cocktail is.
And then to the right is more alcohol to the left is less alcohol.
Up is richer.
(25:14):
Down is like less rich, right?
And then you have cocktails all around that map.
It's more of a diagram, right?
But usually we use those two lines as roads, right?
And then we would be like the team for this, these next six months is Texas or the team
for the next six months is Japan.
(25:36):
So basically I would use the menu and all the cocktail names to represent a map of a
place.
It sounds very meta, but it's very cute.
And we started from really from Texas, right?
No, from California, Arizona, that area.
So that was the first map.
I mean, but it's not a place.
(25:58):
It's just the vibe.
And then we went all the way to universe.
So I think we're now at the end of our journey where it is like everything exploded and the
map doesn't look like map anymore.
It's more of a menu.
But that is a, I wouldn't say weird, but that is something that was interesting, you know,
to see the journey of how the client thought of what he wants to represent.
(26:22):
It was two guys.
And then all the way to the, you know, map map where I represent something.
So yeah.
I'm sorry.
No, no weird stories.
No Kingsley stories.
I mean, that's cool.
I mean, we're weird in the, I guess lateral thinking sense.
And that certainly covers that off that.
(26:43):
Yeah.
The map of the flavors and linking that to the two cities and stuff.
That's really cool.
And also we, when we're speaking the last time, you were talking about the connection
between maps and writing and you're doing a writing tour.
Can you tell me a little bit about that?
(27:04):
Oh, that was fantastic.
Okay.
You're talking, no, because I do a lot of writing and I do, nobody sees my writing except on
sub stack where I talk about theories and, you know, what moves me.
But it's good.
Yeah.
So I went down to Provence in a month ago.
It was exactly month ago and I was teaching a workshop to 20 Australian women.
(27:27):
That were traveling around France.
Right.
So they would experiencing their life in Paris through writing.
Right.
And there was a woman from Melbourne who was basically doing writing retreat workshops.
So all of that.
So I met them in Paris and then I went down to Provence and it was such an incredibly
(27:53):
inspiring like crowd of women because like writers with a lot of ideas with a lot of
like, you know, and you're like in France and it's just beginning of the fall.
Like an autumn is the beautiful season here.
So they're all very inspired by everything they're writing.
And then what I was teaching, I teach a creativity workshops.
(28:15):
It's map making workshops.
And basically we are moving like a whole perspective from like place where you sit and write.
We came to the perspective to the perspective where you actually sit and draw.
Right.
So we did the whole map making workshop was about the same experiences that they wrote
(28:39):
about for probably like seven, eight, 10 days.
But now they had a chance actually to represent their experiences through a drawing.
And I find it very funny because you come in front of the adults because I do this with
kids as well.
But you come in front of adults and people freak out because you're like, I don't know
how to draw.
(28:59):
What have you been drawing a map that sounds so scary.
And then they sit and you see that they're just like, walk, they've woken up that little
kid, you know, that has been dormant for so many years, right?
Or would appear every now and then.
And basically they drew their map.
So like there were 18 of them and 18 of them like did a fantastic job.
(29:24):
I was so impressed.
Like it was so good.
So some of them were traveling like Rome, Paris, and then like Australia.
So they presented that some of them were traveling like around Europe before.
Or after.
So they would like leave a space for when they can actually add something on their map.
(29:47):
But like there was not one single person that was just like, oh, I don't know how to draw.
I'm not going to do this.
So I have like it lasts two and a half hours, three hours.
So the first hour, hour and a half, we actually talk about experiences.
And that whole writing thing is a place where like we because like that's not scary for any
(30:09):
of us, right?
So I just sit down and I give exercises and we develop those like true writing.
And then your creative like muscle is woken and like they it's like ready to go.
And then I give them colors like watercolors and gouache and like whatever, you know, I
have so much material around me.
(30:30):
So I just bring them that and I'm just like, use it like no mistakes.
The only the only rule is that there's no eraser because I just want them to like, you
know, make mistakes in pain.
And it's fascinating.
It's really like I am so happy to to see that like spark in them, you know, when when they
(30:52):
when they participate in my in my workshop.
So I am having on sub stack right now.
It's a I do it's called map your days.
Like until the end of the year, I'm going to have it's a free challenge, little prompts
from my workshops that I just write about.
(31:12):
And I'm actually inviting my readers and people who follow me just to like join us in the
creative endeavor, because I think it's just we need to like, I think the creativity is
antidote to everything happening around us.
So it's it's healthy for us to, you know, find a way to break from the news and the
loop of the bad news.
(31:33):
So yeah, come join us.
Yeah.
Oh, cool.
I think you can pop your link to your sub stack in our show notes so anyone can find
that.
But I love that it sounds like a really non confronting, non scary way to, yeah, as you
said, reawaken that in a child and just start doodling and start drawing.
(31:54):
I think that's really cool.
And everybody loves that, you know, you have from the doctors and like surgeons to like
actually creatives writers and everybody's enjoying it in the same way.
And you're like, oh, so good.
Yeah, that's cool.
I feel like we just need more excuses to actually just do that and have fun and play around
(32:15):
with it.
I think what's really cool about your story is that this map making seems to be a really
cool calm like culmination of all your experiences.
You said you're an urban planner.
You're also an illustrator.
And it's coming together in this really cool way that is just helping other people relive
(32:40):
their memories.
And that's really, that's really sweet.
I like that.
Well, thank you.
Yeah, I think it is, as you said, it's a culmination.
It's a good explanation of my life and everything, you know, that I, you know, not living in
my own country and like living around and all of that.
And it's just like, I do like generally like the experience is very important for me.
(33:08):
Like it is, like I want people to have good experiences, right?
I mean, if they're like communicating with me or like in life, generally, I mean, it
sounds like very well, obviously, but like, I like it's something that is just like so
I love experiencing new things, right?
(33:30):
And yeah, they can be good, they can be bad.
But I think putting them on a map is like seeing your life and what you did and how you spend
time.
And it's just like, it's all fascinating, you know, because it's such a simple way to
present something, you know, I'm like, even if you live in the same street or your life,
(33:52):
you do things differently in different parts of your life.
And I think that's like, when you just thinking about that makes me feel like warm and fuzzy,
you know, so, and that's the whole idea to, you know, I'm hoping that those maps make
people feel warm and fuzzy.
Oh, that's beautiful.
(34:13):
Oh, and thank you so much for sharing this story with us today.
And I'm so intrigued by the idea of everything's a map.
I'm going to have to start thinking about what I can map out as well.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, I think designers are really good at drawing diagrams, right?
So it's a try like I usually tell to my designer friends, like go and try like presenting something
(34:37):
as diagram and then, you know, you will loosen up and some point you're going to be start
drawing maps because it's it's fascinating.
So but thank you for inviting me.
I'm really happy that we had this talk.
So and yeah, thanks for all the questions.
They made me think early in the morning in Paris.
You did very well for so early in the morning.
(34:59):
I don't know if you noticed, but I actually have two cups.
No, I think one is C because I just prepared for all situations.
No, I appreciate it.
Yeah, I definitely appreciate you getting up early and making the time for me.
And I also want to say thank you to everyone who's tuned into this episode of Creativity:
(35:22):
Uncovered.
I hope that this episode has inspired you to start and just try and doodle and if not
the reflection of, you know, reflecting on your life and significant moments will be
a great experience anyway.
And I also hope that it helps you summon your creativity the next time that you need it.
.
(36:10):
If you've made it this far, a huge thank you for your support and tuning into today's
episode.
Creativity (36:17):
Uncovered has been lovingly recorded on the land of the Kabi Kabi people and
we pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging.
This podcast has been produced by my amazing team here at Crisp Communications and the
music you just heard was composed by James Gatling.
If you liked this episode, please do share it around and help us on our mission to unlock
(36:43):
more creativity in this world.
You can also hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any new episode releases.
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