February 19, 2024 • 34 mins
Being creative seems like such a fun, adventurous and freeing experience. And it is, until… it’s not. When you have to be creative on demand, you can experience burnout… So how can you tackle this and get your zest back?
Mari Reisberg, is a therapist, performer, creativity and innovation coach, and host of the Sustaining Creativity Podcast. She uses her training in psychology, acting and coaching to help people find balance between their creative careers and everyday creativity.
Tune in to hear about why burnout happens, how to achieve balance and the need for creative safety. This is a really practical episode, which will leave you with some tried and tested tips for sustaining your own creativity.
Happy listening!
xo Abi
P.S. For more information about this episode and our guest, head to: www.crispcomms.co/podcast-episodes/sustaining-creativity-amp-battling-burnout
Creativity: Uncovered is lovingly edited by the team at Crisp Communications.
Creativity: Uncovered is a registered Australian Trade Mark.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Being creative seems like such a fun, adventurous and freeing experience.
(00:13):
And it is.
Until it's not.
When you have to be creative on demand day after day, you can experience burnout.
So how do you tackle this and how do you get your zest back?
Hi, my name is Abi Gatling and welcome to Creativity (00:30):
Uncovered.
In this podcast, I'm on a journey to uncover how everyday people find inspiration, get
inventive and open their imagination.
Basically, I want to explore people's creative solutions at home, at work, at play and everything
(00:51):
in between.
And my goal for this podcast is that by the end of it, you'll be armed with a whole suite
of tried and tested ways to summon creativity the next time that you need it.
Today I'm very excited because I am going to be speaking with Mari Reisberg who is a therapist
(01:14):
and a performer and a creativity and innovation coach.
And she's the host of a podcast called Sustaining Creativity.
She basically specializes in how to help people balance their creative careers and everyday
creativity.
And I need this.
So thank you for joining me, Mari.
(01:36):
Thank you so much for having me, Abi.
I'm so excited to chat with you about creativity and navigating the ups and downs that it
can bring.
I know there are ups and there are downs and that's the joy of life.
It absolutely is.
Yeah, yeah.
I feel like this is so topical for me this episode because I feel as though from the
(02:04):
outside looking in at people who are in sort of artistic or creative roles, it can seem
like it's all fun and games.
And I've actually had a conversation with a few people about this where they just can't
understand the possibility of just being creative out and you just created that.
(02:25):
That's not even a word, but you know, it will work in this context.
That point where you just can't really do it anymore because creativity is fine, but
burnout is also real.
So tell me about creative burnout.
Why does it happen?
Oh, the why doesn't happen.
That is a fantastic question.
(02:46):
I personally believe that creative burnout happens when we are outputting more than we
are inputting.
So when that balance of output to input gets off.
So it's great when people have all the time in the world to absorb creative experiences
(03:09):
find inspiration, watch all the tiktoks and all the reels go to the art museum, go to
the theater, go to the concert or draw or paint or dance or have all these things that
they know fuel and fill their own creative cup.
And they're not having to output on a daily basis or maybe multiple times a day creative
(03:35):
offerings or creative expressions.
So when that balance gets a little skewed, I think that is when we find ourselves in
this pit of burnout where trying to output more and more creativity becomes more and
more challenging.
(03:57):
Yes.
Yeah.
It's it's all about balance, isn't it?
And if you are, you know, if you're just letting it swing too far one way, surely that's not
a great thing.
But have you ever experienced burnout yourself?
Oh, 100%.
Absolutely.
(04:18):
Yes.
I feel like I'm experiencing it on some level right now in terms of being the end of my
day and having put out a lot of creative things today and have not input enough to feel like
I could keep going all evening.
Yes.
So how does that typically manifest for you?
(04:41):
For me, I feel like what happens is my mind goes blank and every idea I have, I automatically
think is trash.
It's terrible.
It's awful.
And I start really judging myself that critic voice shows up in a much louder way of like
(05:03):
no one's going to like that.
That's awful.
And I it's in those moments where I also realize I'm I've started to do creativity for the
response of someone else and not for my pure enjoyment of it.
So when creativity becomes about someone else's reaction to it, then I realize, ooh, I'm off
(05:30):
balance within creativity and my own recalibration needs to happen.
Yes.
But how do you do that?
I mean, this is something you help people with.
But how do you do it when a lot of us are trading our creativity for money?
(05:53):
So you are essentially doing someone else.
Like how can you how can you kind of come to terms with that?
Oh, there are so many ways.
But the first thing I really look at with clients is safety.
And that may sound like a bit of an odd divergent from creativity.
(06:14):
But if we don't feel safe in our environment, with our time in our mind in our space, it's
really hard to keep putting ourselves out there in a creative fashion, or putting our
ideas out there or sharing some creative moment that we're having with other people.
(06:34):
So oftentimes emotions of fear can come up that worry.
I don't know enough that kind of imposter syndrome.
So I really focus on creating a sense of safety.
So in your physical space, what are the items that bring you comfort, help you feel more
(06:57):
peaceful, more calm, soothe a nervous system or soothe your senses.
So I think about the things you can see, touch, taste, smell and hear.
And for anyone who's watching this, if it is a video, I have some things on my desk that
(07:19):
just remind me a little rock that says love on it.
I have a strawberry rubber duck that my partner gave me that reminds me of him.
So it's things that help me feel grounded, connected to who I am and little reminders.
So finding that foundation of safety is super important before we take those what I like
(07:43):
to call creative risks.
After we go put ourselves out there in a creative way, we have that safety space to return to.
So that's kind of the beginning of it.
And while creativity and safety may not sound like they go together, they absolutely do.
(08:09):
I mean, yeah, now you said it, it makes perfect sense.
Like, it's harking back to Meso's hierarchy, isn't it?
That you've got to have this strong foundation before you can start to do this higher level
thinking or expression.
That's so cool.
How did you come across that as a concept?
(08:31):
So actually, I learned it from my creativity and innovation coaching certification.
And I learned it in a more formal fashion from my teacher, Michael Lee, who is out of
South Africa and has an innovation coaching program.
But prior to that, I have a degree in acting and a degree in psychology.
(08:55):
And so through my training in school, learned a lot about how safety really impacts us from
a psychological perspective.
And so I started putting pieces together for myself and being that I have this degree in
acting and performing.
We're constantly, as performers, asked to be incredibly vulnerable in front of strangers
(09:16):
on a daily basis.
And that is incredibly difficult and incredibly challenging.
And if you don't have that foundation of safety and trust within yourself to come back to,
it can be really difficult to feel a sense of self or grounded in who you are separate
(09:37):
from, characters separate from performance.
So I had already started developing this concept and idea about how safety in creativity is
one of the cornerstones and so important.
And then when I was working with Michael Lee, he just reinforced that as this foundation
(09:58):
of creativity.
We have to feel safe in our space, in our mind.
So paying attention to what's the narrative you're telling yourself, what is the critic
saying, what are the supportive, positive pieces?
And it's not just going from total negative to total positive because that's the same,
(10:18):
but on different ends of the spectrum.
So finding what we go in between and say, are you actually scheduling creative time into
your schedule or are you just expecting you to make it happen?
And then the environment can be about your work space and a work environment or at a
(10:39):
school.
So it's more about the structure of where you are, not necessarily where you live.
Oh yeah, okay.
So multi layers to it.
Yes, physically, your environment and your mind, I think being able to control your mind
(11:00):
is so important in so much of this because there's that self criticism, but then there's
also a lot of the time when you're doing something artistic or creative, it's a physical expression
or something and people want to critique it and they want to give you feedback.
(11:21):
And it's so subjective as well, whether you like it or whether you don't like it.
So you've got to kind of be able to manage your mind in your own criticism, but then
other external criticisms coming towards you as well.
So that's tough.
It is, it can feel a little bit like, I don't know, I have these images of like shielding
(11:46):
comments or you know, someone shooting something at you and you're deflecting it.
But I think, you know, mindfulness is also a component of creativity and being really
mindful about how you talk to yourself and also mindful how you read someone else's critique,
how you are interpreting what someone else is saying.
(12:09):
Are you personalizing it?
Is that kind of your go to strategy?
Or are you able to look at it objectively and separate yourself from it and say that
someone else's opinion and everyone's allowed to have an opinion?
I don't have to take on their opinion as who I am.
Oh, that is so true.
(12:32):
I find myself doing that myself.
So I run a marketing agency, it's my regular, regular gig.
And there's so often, you know, if you're not having a great day or a couple of things
have gone wrong and you get an email from a client giving you feedback or whatever, you
can read it with this really negative lens and you're like, well, that was quick.
(12:54):
That was a bit short.
They didn't say hello.
They didn't do this.
And so you're, you're like, I find myself like projecting onto this email being like,
oh, it's really short.
So they've been curt with me.
And as soon as you realize, no, they're busy.
They're busy.
They don't actually know, right?
We don't have the information.
(13:15):
Yeah.
So I just find I'm always trying to find.
And other ways to kind of figure out what actually the tone is because emails, emails
are terrible and text messages are terrible because there's so many ways to interpret
interpret it.
You're absolutely correct.
Something that I actually do because I too receive emails and I like to check in with
(13:40):
what, what many people call rational mind.
So I'm just checking the facts.
Like, okay, what are the facts?
What did this person?
What is the information that they have shared?
And then what are my emotions about the information, which are super different?
And then how can I remind myself, I don't have all the information to create the story
(14:05):
that my mind wants to create about this person that sent me the email.
And that typically helps me deescalate my, the intensity that I may feel when I first
get that email to go through some steps of checking my facts, identifying the emotions
that I'm experiencing, and then reminding myself that I don't have all the information
(14:29):
to back up the story my mind has created.
Because I think it gets easier over time.
I'm working throughout practice.
It will become a bit more second nature.
I think it does.
I think it becomes more automatic.
So I don't have to think as much about what I'm doing.
It just happens because I've done it over and over and over.
(14:52):
But it's still, there are still days where I suck at it and I really get caught up in
it.
So perfection is not what I'm going for.
Just experience, like consistency.
If I catch it more often than not, I feel okay about it.
Yeah.
So tell me about your creativity coaching.
(15:15):
I know you mentioned that you did the course and that's reaffirmed your thinking around
safety and creativity.
But what led you to want to actually go into coaching itself?
Because that's, it's an interesting, I always think that's an interesting jump to go
from being the someone who's implementing to then helping someone else implement.
(15:40):
Or like, what does that look like and how did that happen for you?
Yeah.
I think for me, stepping into the realm of coaching was a pretty easy shift because I'm
already a therapist.
So talking to people, supporting people, problem solving, coaching, it kind of, they're very
similar and very different all at the same time.
(16:03):
So stepping into the coaching arena, I had initially been doing workshops for universities
around the United States on sustaining creativity.
That helped kind of transition into starting a podcast and getting into this world of coaching
because I had originally just been working with performers, primarily actors and dancers
(16:28):
and musicians and then painters.
And then the more I would talk about the work that I was doing, people were saying like,
"Oh, well, I'm a former creative.
Like I used to do that, but I don't anymore, but I want to get back into it."
And so that was kind of how I started working with more people who currently wouldn't necessarily
(16:50):
consider themselves a quote unquote creative, but they had a previous life of being creative
and then had kind of set it aside to have kids have a nine to five job, do something
else, take care of a parent, take care of some other experience in their life that was
giving or calling them in that moment and wanting to come back to creativity.
(17:15):
So that is kind of how more of the coaching pieces came to fruition.
Wow. That's so interesting to me to hear that people say I'm a former creative as if because
they're not currently doing it, it doesn't entail them to still be a creative person.
(17:35):
Yeah.
It's a funny, I think it's a funny term, being a creative.
It's like being a professional.
Who determines that?
What threshold do you have to cross to be considered a professional artist, a professional
doodler, whatever you're doing or being a creative?
(17:58):
What threshold do you have to cross?
So I think that's a really interesting conversation to have with people.
Why is it something you used to do and not something you still do?
Because many of the people I work with and talk to about creativity are 100% creative
(18:19):
in navigating taking care of children, cooking meals, cleaning a house, organizing a schedule,
making life happen.
I see as a creative act, but they're relegating creativity to this very small understanding
of what creativity is.
(18:40):
Yes, yes.
I say this to people all the time and it's been a real common theme in this podcast is
that creativity is not just artistic output.
Creativity is a mindset, as you said before, and it's so broad.
I'm hoping that through this podcast we're actually going to help people rethink what
(19:04):
creativity is because it could be looking after your kids at home, like you said, or
doing your DIY or basically problem solving and lateral thinking.
You may not be actually going out and doing your painting like you used to do 10 years
ago, but that does not mean you're not being creative.
Absolutely.
I have people all the time talk to me about, "Oh, I'm not really creative," but I love
(19:29):
making my schedule every day and I color code it and I'm like, "Oh my God, that is a creative
experience.
If you are color coding your daily schedule, that is creative.
You're adding your own flavor, your own zest, your own expression to it.
That is a creative act."
I love reminding people what creativity can be and allowing them to start looking at the
(19:58):
everyday things in their life that they are doing as a creative act or creative experience.
Yeah.
How do we stop that?
I'm so guilty of this myself, but how do we stop that comparison against others where
you're like, "Oh, I'm not an artist because that person is better than me at painting?"
(20:19):
Why do we do that and how can we stop that a little bit?
That's a great question.
I don't know that I have the answer of how to stop it, but I think it's a process.
One of it is being really mindful and catching yourself when you fall into that pattern of
comparing yourself.
(20:40):
The quote that I'm always reminded of is "Comparison is the thief of joy."
When I start comparing myself to someone, I'm like, "Ooh, I am giving away my joy."
When I start comparing myself to someone else, it's an active giving away.
What brings me joy?
Those two things being really mindful and then reminding myself, "Ooh, I'm making a
(21:05):
choice here.
Comparison is the thief of joy and I don't want to give away my joy."
Creativity actually helps me experience more joy in my own life.
Those little reminders, but I don't know that I have the be-all, end-all answer of how we
can stop comparing ourselves.
(21:27):
Because we live in a culture, in a world where comparison happens so naturally.
We're constantly comparing ourselves to other people, people who are ahead of us, people
who are behind us in things that we do, people who are alongside of us.
It happens within family structures.
It happens in the workplace.
(21:48):
It happens when you're driving.
I don't know if you ever compare yourself to other drivers in a positive or negative
fashion.
I think comparison doesn't just have to be this negative thing.
I think there's oftentimes where we can get really caught up in comparing ourselves in
that more positive space, which sometimes can be just as detrimental.
(22:13):
Yeah.
I mean, sometimes I'm like, "That person is great at reversing."
I don't know.
That's a good comparison.
I want to be like you rather than, "Why am I not as good as that?"
It is a slight mindset shift, I think.
Like you can, maybe I suppose you could use comparison, but not necessarily viewing it
(22:37):
as a win-lose situation, but rather than where all are in our own journey.
So true, or being able to see it as like, "Oh, that's something I'm working on and striving
for or working towards that.
(22:59):
What I perceive as what this other person has, which may or may not be true, that's something
I'm working on having more of in my life or striving for in my life as well."
Yeah.
So true.
Yeah.
We mentioned it a little bit before, but your podcast, Sustaining Creativity, which is,
(23:22):
I think how I found you in the first place potentially, but tell me, you sort of mentioned
how that came across as just more opportunities to have these conversations, but what is it
all about?
What are you looking to achieve in your podcast or is it just purely for the creative act?
I'd like to think it's more than just purely for the creativity of it all, but I really
(23:48):
feel that I love talking to people about creativity.
It fuels my creativity to have a conversation about creativity with other people and to start
doing that with people around the world that I may never cross paths with in real life,
that the beauty of Zoom or the beauty of virtual connection allows me to have conversations
(24:15):
about creativity with people I may never have had the opportunity to cross paths with.
My goal is to really bring creativity to more people, to keep the creative conversations
going, that creativity is more than just fine arts, performing arts.
(24:35):
Creativity is an everyday experience.
Creativity is a way of life.
The more people I talk to about how creativity shows up for them in their life, I feel like
I'm achieving that to share what creativity looks like around the globe and how people
use it in their everyday life.
Yes.
(24:55):
I think it's so aligned with this podcast and every sentiment that you just said, I'm
like, "Yeah, I feel you."
It's such a cool experience that you wouldn't just necessarily call up someone and be like,
"Hey! Mari, do you want to talk about creativity?"
Unless you have this reason to and you're like, "I've got a podcast.
(25:16):
Now let's talk about it."
It's like this legitimate reason to reach out to strangers who you're just curious about
talking to and just having a great conversation.
Absolutely.
It's the best.
I love talking to people who don't believe they're creative and by the end of the conversation
have them recognize, "Oh, I'm way more creative than I ever gave myself credit for or than
(25:41):
I ever thought."
Or listeners sharing, "I would never have thought that a lawyer could have a creative
experience."
And really getting tickled that it opened their eyes to a new way of looking at a career
path or a job or how creativity can show up in literally anything we do.
(26:10):
Do you find, because you work currently as a therapist, as your regular 9-5, right?
Do you find ways to be creative in that aspect of your life?
Oh my gosh.
I personally think therapy is one of the most creative jobs you could have because I am
constantly listening and hearing stories and offering ways to support growth and change
(26:41):
in someone else's life.
I'm a little detective.
I'm putting pieces together.
I'm connecting dots all the time for clients.
So I truly see my role as a therapist as an incredibly creative job, which I love doing
and it brings me so much joy to support people in the growth and change they are looking for
(27:04):
in their life.
And I think that is also a really creative experience because that's kind of the goal
of life, like growth and change that we were constantly moving forward in our lives and
in new and unique and different ways.
No two clients are the same.
(27:26):
So I'm constantly getting the opportunity to try new things and share new ideas and offer
new ways of navigating challenges in your life.
That's really cool.
And do you ever get to get your clients involved in creative acts as part of the therapy?
(27:51):
Oh yes, I absolutely do.
I have been known to assign homework that is very unique and different to clients.
I think years ago I invited a client to build a hula hoop and teach themself how to hula
hoop and just kind of unique different experiences to shake up the stagnation in life or to try
(28:22):
something new and get outside the comfort zone of sameness.
And so I'm constantly inviting clients to try things in new ways or practice something
that they are challenged by so they find more comfort in it.
(28:45):
So I think the world of creativity is very accessible in therapy and in the things that
I invite my clients to do.
It's a cool.
It's a cool blending of your two sets of experiences and your two sets of interests.
(29:07):
My question for you is how do you balance that?
How do you balance the regular job, the coaching, the podcast?
Because I feel like that could easily get out of balance really quickly.
You are correct.
It very easily get out of balance.
So I do have to be very organized and very scheduled and planned in terms of I see clients
(29:36):
on these days.
I do podcasts on this evening and this day.
And pretty much after 8 p.m. the glass slippers have come off and I am turned into a pumpkin
and I have to go about the rest of my evening in my own personal life.
(29:58):
But I think throughout the day and not every hour is scheduled.
Not every moment is planned.
So giving myself the freedom to go outside and go for a walk or do some exercise that
I find enjoyable or sit and listen to music or read a book or doodle on something.
(30:20):
Because I have to sit on hold waiting to talk to someone and I will doodle or draw or paint
something or just look at pictures of things that inspire me or that feel joyful or help
me feel more connected or pet my cat.
And so I think it is looking at those everyday things as creativity and that fill my creative
(30:48):
cup.
So it is not something that I have to set aside X amount of hours and if I don't get
that then my creativity is way off balance.
So it is like thinking about what I am going to make for dinner and then planning that
is a creative experience for me and cooking it and then how I arrange it on a plate is
(31:13):
a creative act.
And so looking at more of the things that I do everyday in my life as creativity has
helped me really manage the balance with everything that I do because I do a lot.
Yes.
I love that.
I love the idea of just reframing everything as a creative act.
(31:35):
And so when you don't have the time to do what you would normally do to de-stress and
be creative.
You can still find these opportunities through making dinner or where you are in the house
or whatever.
I think that is really cool.
I think that is my biggest takeaway.
There are a lot of takeaways on this one.
I think just those small mindset shifts I think would do a lot especially I feel like
(32:01):
for me.
Yeah.
I mean it totally changed my own experience of my own life and looking at my life through
this creative lens changed how I get dressed in the morning.
How I do my hair.
The things that I add or take away in terms of arranging furniture or how the sheets that
(32:24):
I put on my bed.
Looking at that as an opportunity to express myself and feel creative has completely shifted
that input of creativity to output of creativity.
Wonderful.
I think I feel like I could pick your brain on this for so much longer but I am aware
(32:48):
you are turning slightly orange, turning slightly into a pumpkin right now.
I appreciate you staying up late and talking to me.
But yeah thank you so much Mari for joining me today.
Thank you so much for the invitation.
I thoroughly enjoyed this.
You're right we could have talked for hours.
(33:08):
I will let you tune out and then have your evening.
But I also want to thank everyone who's tuned into Creativity (33:11):
Uncovered today and I really
hope that this episode has inspired you just to shift your mindset a little bit to try
something new and that it helps you summon creativity the next time that you need it.
.
(33:57):
If you've made it this far a huge thank you for your support and tuning into today's episode.
Creativity (34:04):
Uncovered has been lovingly recorded on the land of the Kabi Kabi people and
we pay our respects to elders past present and emerging.
This podcast has been produced by my amazing team here at Crisp Communications and the
music you just heard was composed by James Gatling.
If you liked this episode please do share it around and help us on our mission to unlock
(34:29):
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You can also hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any new episode releases.
(gentle music)
Being creative seems like such a fun, adventurous and freeing experience.
(00:13):
And it is.
Until it's not.
When you have to be creative on demand day after day, you can experience burnout.
So how do you tackle this and how do you get your zest back?
Hi, my name is Abi Gatling and welcome to Creativity (00:30):
Uncovered.
In this podcast, I'm on a journey to uncover how everyday people find inspiration, get
inventive and open their imagination.
Basically, I want to explore people's creative solutions at home, at work, at play and everything
(00:51):
in between.
And my goal for this podcast is that by the end of it, you'll be armed with a whole suite
of tried and tested ways to summon creativity the next time that you need it.
Today I'm very excited because I am going to be speaking with Mari Reisberg who is a therapist
(01:14):
and a performer and a creativity and innovation coach.
And she's the host of a podcast called Sustaining Creativity.
She basically specializes in how to help people balance their creative careers and everyday
creativity.
And I need this.
So thank you for joining me, Mari.
(01:36):
Thank you so much for having me, Abi.
I'm so excited to chat with you about creativity and navigating the ups and downs that it
can bring.
I know there are ups and there are downs and that's the joy of life.
It absolutely is.
Yeah, yeah.
I feel like this is so topical for me this episode because I feel as though from the
(02:04):
outside looking in at people who are in sort of artistic or creative roles, it can seem
like it's all fun and games.
And I've actually had a conversation with a few people about this where they just can't
understand the possibility of just being creative out and you just created that.
(02:25):
That's not even a word, but you know, it will work in this context.
That point where you just can't really do it anymore because creativity is fine, but
burnout is also real.
So tell me about creative burnout.
Why does it happen?
Oh, the why doesn't happen.
That is a fantastic question.
(02:46):
I personally believe that creative burnout happens when we are outputting more than we
are inputting.
So when that balance of output to input gets off.
So it's great when people have all the time in the world to absorb creative experiences
(03:09):
find inspiration, watch all the tiktoks and all the reels go to the art museum, go to
the theater, go to the concert or draw or paint or dance or have all these things that
they know fuel and fill their own creative cup.
And they're not having to output on a daily basis or maybe multiple times a day creative
(03:35):
offerings or creative expressions.
So when that balance gets a little skewed, I think that is when we find ourselves in
this pit of burnout where trying to output more and more creativity becomes more and
more challenging.
(03:57):
Yes.
Yeah.
It's it's all about balance, isn't it?
And if you are, you know, if you're just letting it swing too far one way, surely that's not
a great thing.
But have you ever experienced burnout yourself?
Oh, 100%.
Absolutely.
(04:18):
Yes.
I feel like I'm experiencing it on some level right now in terms of being the end of my
day and having put out a lot of creative things today and have not input enough to feel like
I could keep going all evening.
Yes.
So how does that typically manifest for you?
(04:41):
For me, I feel like what happens is my mind goes blank and every idea I have, I automatically
think is trash.
It's terrible.
It's awful.
And I start really judging myself that critic voice shows up in a much louder way of like
(05:03):
no one's going to like that.
That's awful.
And I it's in those moments where I also realize I'm I've started to do creativity for the
response of someone else and not for my pure enjoyment of it.
So when creativity becomes about someone else's reaction to it, then I realize, ooh, I'm off
(05:30):
balance within creativity and my own recalibration needs to happen.
Yes.
But how do you do that?
I mean, this is something you help people with.
But how do you do it when a lot of us are trading our creativity for money?
(05:53):
So you are essentially doing someone else.
Like how can you how can you kind of come to terms with that?
Oh, there are so many ways.
But the first thing I really look at with clients is safety.
And that may sound like a bit of an odd divergent from creativity.
(06:14):
But if we don't feel safe in our environment, with our time in our mind in our space, it's
really hard to keep putting ourselves out there in a creative fashion, or putting our
ideas out there or sharing some creative moment that we're having with other people.
(06:34):
So oftentimes emotions of fear can come up that worry.
I don't know enough that kind of imposter syndrome.
So I really focus on creating a sense of safety.
So in your physical space, what are the items that bring you comfort, help you feel more
(06:57):
peaceful, more calm, soothe a nervous system or soothe your senses.
So I think about the things you can see, touch, taste, smell and hear.
And for anyone who's watching this, if it is a video, I have some things on my desk that
(07:19):
just remind me a little rock that says love on it.
I have a strawberry rubber duck that my partner gave me that reminds me of him.
So it's things that help me feel grounded, connected to who I am and little reminders.
So finding that foundation of safety is super important before we take those what I like
(07:43):
to call creative risks.
After we go put ourselves out there in a creative way, we have that safety space to return to.
So that's kind of the beginning of it.
And while creativity and safety may not sound like they go together, they absolutely do.
(08:09):
I mean, yeah, now you said it, it makes perfect sense.
Like, it's harking back to Meso's hierarchy, isn't it?
That you've got to have this strong foundation before you can start to do this higher level
thinking or expression.
That's so cool.
How did you come across that as a concept?
(08:31):
So actually, I learned it from my creativity and innovation coaching certification.
And I learned it in a more formal fashion from my teacher, Michael Lee, who is out of
South Africa and has an innovation coaching program.
But prior to that, I have a degree in acting and a degree in psychology.
(08:55):
And so through my training in school, learned a lot about how safety really impacts us from
a psychological perspective.
And so I started putting pieces together for myself and being that I have this degree in
acting and performing.
We're constantly, as performers, asked to be incredibly vulnerable in front of strangers
(09:16):
on a daily basis.
And that is incredibly difficult and incredibly challenging.
And if you don't have that foundation of safety and trust within yourself to come back to,
it can be really difficult to feel a sense of self or grounded in who you are separate
(09:37):
from, characters separate from performance.
So I had already started developing this concept and idea about how safety in creativity is
one of the cornerstones and so important.
And then when I was working with Michael Lee, he just reinforced that as this foundation
(09:58):
of creativity.
We have to feel safe in our space, in our mind.
So paying attention to what's the narrative you're telling yourself, what is the critic
saying, what are the supportive, positive pieces?
And it's not just going from total negative to total positive because that's the same,
(10:18):
but on different ends of the spectrum.
So finding what we go in between and say, are you actually scheduling creative time into
your schedule or are you just expecting you to make it happen?
And then the environment can be about your work space and a work environment or at a
(10:39):
school.
So it's more about the structure of where you are, not necessarily where you live.
Oh yeah, okay.
So multi layers to it.
Yes, physically, your environment and your mind, I think being able to control your mind
(11:00):
is so important in so much of this because there's that self criticism, but then there's
also a lot of the time when you're doing something artistic or creative, it's a physical expression
or something and people want to critique it and they want to give you feedback.
(11:21):
And it's so subjective as well, whether you like it or whether you don't like it.
So you've got to kind of be able to manage your mind in your own criticism, but then
other external criticisms coming towards you as well.
So that's tough.
It is, it can feel a little bit like, I don't know, I have these images of like shielding
(11:46):
comments or you know, someone shooting something at you and you're deflecting it.
But I think, you know, mindfulness is also a component of creativity and being really
mindful about how you talk to yourself and also mindful how you read someone else's critique,
how you are interpreting what someone else is saying.
(12:09):
Are you personalizing it?
Is that kind of your go to strategy?
Or are you able to look at it objectively and separate yourself from it and say that
someone else's opinion and everyone's allowed to have an opinion?
I don't have to take on their opinion as who I am.
Oh, that is so true.
(12:32):
I find myself doing that myself.
So I run a marketing agency, it's my regular, regular gig.
And there's so often, you know, if you're not having a great day or a couple of things
have gone wrong and you get an email from a client giving you feedback or whatever, you
can read it with this really negative lens and you're like, well, that was quick.
(12:54):
That was a bit short.
They didn't say hello.
They didn't do this.
And so you're, you're like, I find myself like projecting onto this email being like,
oh, it's really short.
So they've been curt with me.
And as soon as you realize, no, they're busy.
They're busy.
They don't actually know, right?
We don't have the information.
(13:15):
Yeah.
So I just find I'm always trying to find.
And other ways to kind of figure out what actually the tone is because emails, emails
are terrible and text messages are terrible because there's so many ways to interpret
interpret it.
You're absolutely correct.
Something that I actually do because I too receive emails and I like to check in with
(13:40):
what, what many people call rational mind.
So I'm just checking the facts.
Like, okay, what are the facts?
What did this person?
What is the information that they have shared?
And then what are my emotions about the information, which are super different?
And then how can I remind myself, I don't have all the information to create the story
(14:05):
that my mind wants to create about this person that sent me the email.
And that typically helps me deescalate my, the intensity that I may feel when I first
get that email to go through some steps of checking my facts, identifying the emotions
that I'm experiencing, and then reminding myself that I don't have all the information
(14:29):
to back up the story my mind has created.
Because I think it gets easier over time.
I'm working throughout practice.
It will become a bit more second nature.
I think it does.
I think it becomes more automatic.
So I don't have to think as much about what I'm doing.
It just happens because I've done it over and over and over.
(14:52):
But it's still, there are still days where I suck at it and I really get caught up in
it.
So perfection is not what I'm going for.
Just experience, like consistency.
If I catch it more often than not, I feel okay about it.
Yeah.
So tell me about your creativity coaching.
(15:15):
I know you mentioned that you did the course and that's reaffirmed your thinking around
safety and creativity.
But what led you to want to actually go into coaching itself?
Because that's, it's an interesting, I always think that's an interesting jump to go
from being the someone who's implementing to then helping someone else implement.
(15:40):
Or like, what does that look like and how did that happen for you?
Yeah.
I think for me, stepping into the realm of coaching was a pretty easy shift because I'm
already a therapist.
So talking to people, supporting people, problem solving, coaching, it kind of, they're very
similar and very different all at the same time.
(16:03):
So stepping into the coaching arena, I had initially been doing workshops for universities
around the United States on sustaining creativity.
That helped kind of transition into starting a podcast and getting into this world of coaching
because I had originally just been working with performers, primarily actors and dancers
(16:28):
and musicians and then painters.
And then the more I would talk about the work that I was doing, people were saying like,
"Oh, well, I'm a former creative.
Like I used to do that, but I don't anymore, but I want to get back into it."
And so that was kind of how I started working with more people who currently wouldn't necessarily
(16:50):
consider themselves a quote unquote creative, but they had a previous life of being creative
and then had kind of set it aside to have kids have a nine to five job, do something
else, take care of a parent, take care of some other experience in their life that was
giving or calling them in that moment and wanting to come back to creativity.
(17:15):
So that is kind of how more of the coaching pieces came to fruition.
Wow. That's so interesting to me to hear that people say I'm a former creative as if because
they're not currently doing it, it doesn't entail them to still be a creative person.
(17:35):
Yeah.
It's a funny, I think it's a funny term, being a creative.
It's like being a professional.
Who determines that?
What threshold do you have to cross to be considered a professional artist, a professional
doodler, whatever you're doing or being a creative?
(17:58):
What threshold do you have to cross?
So I think that's a really interesting conversation to have with people.
Why is it something you used to do and not something you still do?
Because many of the people I work with and talk to about creativity are 100% creative
(18:19):
in navigating taking care of children, cooking meals, cleaning a house, organizing a schedule,
making life happen.
I see as a creative act, but they're relegating creativity to this very small understanding
of what creativity is.
(18:40):
Yes, yes.
I say this to people all the time and it's been a real common theme in this podcast is
that creativity is not just artistic output.
Creativity is a mindset, as you said before, and it's so broad.
I'm hoping that through this podcast we're actually going to help people rethink what
(19:04):
creativity is because it could be looking after your kids at home, like you said, or
doing your DIY or basically problem solving and lateral thinking.
You may not be actually going out and doing your painting like you used to do 10 years
ago, but that does not mean you're not being creative.
Absolutely.
I have people all the time talk to me about, "Oh, I'm not really creative," but I love
(19:29):
making my schedule every day and I color code it and I'm like, "Oh my God, that is a creative
experience.
If you are color coding your daily schedule, that is creative.
You're adding your own flavor, your own zest, your own expression to it.
That is a creative act."
I love reminding people what creativity can be and allowing them to start looking at the
(19:58):
everyday things in their life that they are doing as a creative act or creative experience.
Yeah.
How do we stop that?
I'm so guilty of this myself, but how do we stop that comparison against others where
you're like, "Oh, I'm not an artist because that person is better than me at painting?"
(20:19):
Why do we do that and how can we stop that a little bit?
That's a great question.
I don't know that I have the answer of how to stop it, but I think it's a process.
One of it is being really mindful and catching yourself when you fall into that pattern of
comparing yourself.
(20:40):
The quote that I'm always reminded of is "Comparison is the thief of joy."
When I start comparing myself to someone, I'm like, "Ooh, I am giving away my joy."
When I start comparing myself to someone else, it's an active giving away.
What brings me joy?
Those two things being really mindful and then reminding myself, "Ooh, I'm making a
(21:05):
choice here.
Comparison is the thief of joy and I don't want to give away my joy."
Creativity actually helps me experience more joy in my own life.
Those little reminders, but I don't know that I have the be-all, end-all answer of how we
can stop comparing ourselves.
(21:27):
Because we live in a culture, in a world where comparison happens so naturally.
We're constantly comparing ourselves to other people, people who are ahead of us, people
who are behind us in things that we do, people who are alongside of us.
It happens within family structures.
It happens in the workplace.
(21:48):
It happens when you're driving.
I don't know if you ever compare yourself to other drivers in a positive or negative
fashion.
I think comparison doesn't just have to be this negative thing.
I think there's oftentimes where we can get really caught up in comparing ourselves in
that more positive space, which sometimes can be just as detrimental.
(22:13):
Yeah.
I mean, sometimes I'm like, "That person is great at reversing."
I don't know.
That's a good comparison.
I want to be like you rather than, "Why am I not as good as that?"
It is a slight mindset shift, I think.
Like you can, maybe I suppose you could use comparison, but not necessarily viewing it
(22:37):
as a win-lose situation, but rather than where all are in our own journey.
So true, or being able to see it as like, "Oh, that's something I'm working on and striving
for or working towards that.
(22:59):
What I perceive as what this other person has, which may or may not be true, that's something
I'm working on having more of in my life or striving for in my life as well."
Yeah.
So true.
Yeah.
We mentioned it a little bit before, but your podcast, Sustaining Creativity, which is,
(23:22):
I think how I found you in the first place potentially, but tell me, you sort of mentioned
how that came across as just more opportunities to have these conversations, but what is it
all about?
What are you looking to achieve in your podcast or is it just purely for the creative act?
I'd like to think it's more than just purely for the creativity of it all, but I really
(23:48):
feel that I love talking to people about creativity.
It fuels my creativity to have a conversation about creativity with other people and to start
doing that with people around the world that I may never cross paths with in real life,
that the beauty of Zoom or the beauty of virtual connection allows me to have conversations
(24:15):
about creativity with people I may never have had the opportunity to cross paths with.
My goal is to really bring creativity to more people, to keep the creative conversations
going, that creativity is more than just fine arts, performing arts.
(24:35):
Creativity is an everyday experience.
Creativity is a way of life.
The more people I talk to about how creativity shows up for them in their life, I feel like
I'm achieving that to share what creativity looks like around the globe and how people
use it in their everyday life.
Yes.
(24:55):
I think it's so aligned with this podcast and every sentiment that you just said, I'm
like, "Yeah, I feel you."
It's such a cool experience that you wouldn't just necessarily call up someone and be like,
"Hey! Mari, do you want to talk about creativity?"
Unless you have this reason to and you're like, "I've got a podcast.
(25:16):
Now let's talk about it."
It's like this legitimate reason to reach out to strangers who you're just curious about
talking to and just having a great conversation.
Absolutely.
It's the best.
I love talking to people who don't believe they're creative and by the end of the conversation
have them recognize, "Oh, I'm way more creative than I ever gave myself credit for or than
(25:41):
I ever thought."
Or listeners sharing, "I would never have thought that a lawyer could have a creative
experience."
And really getting tickled that it opened their eyes to a new way of looking at a career
path or a job or how creativity can show up in literally anything we do.
(26:10):
Do you find, because you work currently as a therapist, as your regular 9-5, right?
Do you find ways to be creative in that aspect of your life?
Oh my gosh.
I personally think therapy is one of the most creative jobs you could have because I am
constantly listening and hearing stories and offering ways to support growth and change
(26:41):
in someone else's life.
I'm a little detective.
I'm putting pieces together.
I'm connecting dots all the time for clients.
So I truly see my role as a therapist as an incredibly creative job, which I love doing
and it brings me so much joy to support people in the growth and change they are looking for
(27:04):
in their life.
And I think that is also a really creative experience because that's kind of the goal
of life, like growth and change that we were constantly moving forward in our lives and
in new and unique and different ways.
No two clients are the same.
(27:26):
So I'm constantly getting the opportunity to try new things and share new ideas and offer
new ways of navigating challenges in your life.
That's really cool.
And do you ever get to get your clients involved in creative acts as part of the therapy?
(27:51):
Oh yes, I absolutely do.
I have been known to assign homework that is very unique and different to clients.
I think years ago I invited a client to build a hula hoop and teach themself how to hula
hoop and just kind of unique different experiences to shake up the stagnation in life or to try
(28:22):
something new and get outside the comfort zone of sameness.
And so I'm constantly inviting clients to try things in new ways or practice something
that they are challenged by so they find more comfort in it.
(28:45):
So I think the world of creativity is very accessible in therapy and in the things that
I invite my clients to do.
It's a cool.
It's a cool blending of your two sets of experiences and your two sets of interests.
(29:07):
My question for you is how do you balance that?
How do you balance the regular job, the coaching, the podcast?
Because I feel like that could easily get out of balance really quickly.
You are correct.
It very easily get out of balance.
So I do have to be very organized and very scheduled and planned in terms of I see clients
(29:36):
on these days.
I do podcasts on this evening and this day.
And pretty much after 8 p.m. the glass slippers have come off and I am turned into a pumpkin
and I have to go about the rest of my evening in my own personal life.
(29:58):
But I think throughout the day and not every hour is scheduled.
Not every moment is planned.
So giving myself the freedom to go outside and go for a walk or do some exercise that
I find enjoyable or sit and listen to music or read a book or doodle on something.
(30:20):
Because I have to sit on hold waiting to talk to someone and I will doodle or draw or paint
something or just look at pictures of things that inspire me or that feel joyful or help
me feel more connected or pet my cat.
And so I think it is looking at those everyday things as creativity and that fill my creative
(30:48):
cup.
So it is not something that I have to set aside X amount of hours and if I don't get
that then my creativity is way off balance.
So it is like thinking about what I am going to make for dinner and then planning that
is a creative experience for me and cooking it and then how I arrange it on a plate is
(31:13):
a creative act.
And so looking at more of the things that I do everyday in my life as creativity has
helped me really manage the balance with everything that I do because I do a lot.
Yes.
I love that.
I love the idea of just reframing everything as a creative act.
(31:35):
And so when you don't have the time to do what you would normally do to de-stress and
be creative.
You can still find these opportunities through making dinner or where you are in the house
or whatever.
I think that is really cool.
I think that is my biggest takeaway.
There are a lot of takeaways on this one.
I think just those small mindset shifts I think would do a lot especially I feel like
(32:01):
for me.
Yeah.
I mean it totally changed my own experience of my own life and looking at my life through
this creative lens changed how I get dressed in the morning.
How I do my hair.
The things that I add or take away in terms of arranging furniture or how the sheets that
(32:24):
I put on my bed.
Looking at that as an opportunity to express myself and feel creative has completely shifted
that input of creativity to output of creativity.
Wonderful.
I think I feel like I could pick your brain on this for so much longer but I am aware
(32:48):
you are turning slightly orange, turning slightly into a pumpkin right now.
I appreciate you staying up late and talking to me.
But yeah thank you so much Mari for joining me today.
Thank you so much for the invitation.
I thoroughly enjoyed this.
You're right we could have talked for hours.
(33:08):
I will let you tune out and then have your evening.
But I also want to thank everyone who's tuned into Creativity (33:11):
Uncovered today and I really
hope that this episode has inspired you just to shift your mindset a little bit to try
something new and that it helps you summon creativity the next time that you need it.
.
(33:57):
If you've made it this far a huge thank you for your support and tuning into today's episode.
Creativity (34:04):
Uncovered has been lovingly recorded on the land of the Kabi Kabi people and
we pay our respects to elders past present and emerging.
This podcast has been produced by my amazing team here at Crisp Communications and the
music you just heard was composed by James Gatling.
If you liked this episode please do share it around and help us on our mission to unlock
(34:29):
more creativity in this world.
You can also hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any new episode releases.
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