February 5, 2024 • 35 mins
If you think that you have creativity inside of you, but just don’t know how to tap into it, this episode of Creativity: Uncovered is for you.
Samantha Mackay is a personal development and Enneagram focused on helping people tap into and express their true creative selves.
As someone with a long journey of recovering from chronic illness, pain, anxiety and depression, Samantha has always been curious about: what is healing and how do we do it. Creativity has been an essential part of her journey of recovery and of her self-expression.
Samantha joins me to share her story and how she coaches others to express their creative selves.
Happy listening!
xo Abi
P.S. For more information about this episode and our guest, head to: http://www.crispcomms.co/podcast-episodes/using-enneagram-to-find-your-creative-self
Creativity: Uncovered is lovingly edited by the team at Crisp Communications.
Creativity: Uncovered is a registered Australian Trade Mark.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Do you feel like you could be creative but you just don't know how to express yourself?
(00:12):
Or perhaps you felt creative in the past and it's been quite some time since you've tapped
into that?
Well, if so, this episode of creating Uncovered is the thing that you may just need right
now.
Hello, my name is Abi Gatling and I am on a journey to uncover how everyday people
(00:33):
find inspiration, get inventive and open their imagination.
Basically, I want to know how people find creative solutions and how they use them at
home, work, play and everything in between.
And my goal for this podcast is that by the end of it, you'll be armed with a whole suite
of tried and tested ways to summon creativity the next time that you need it.
(00:56):
Today, I'm speaking with Samantha Mackay who is a personal development and Enneagram coach
who helps people tap into their true selves.
And I'm super interested to find out more.
(01:16):
So welcome, Samantha.
Thank you.
Beautiful intro there and about creativity and tapping into that part of ourselves which
I've recently discovered is far more holistic than I could ever have imagined.
Oh, okay.
This is a good place to start.
Do tell.
What do you mean by that?
(01:37):
Well, I've recently been doing this project about creativity in the Enneagram where I've
been interviewing people of different types because for me, I've always thought creativity
was just about painting or drawing and you could either do it or you couldn't.
And as I've been speaking to people, I've discovered so many different perspectives
on creativity that I just couldn't have imagined.
(01:59):
You know, for some people, I spoke to someone yesterday and she was saying the creation she's
most proud of is the relationships with her husband and children and the home she's built.
Someone else spoke about being really proud of their recent travel planning and crafting
an experience that they wanted to have when they're spending a month in Fiji.
(02:23):
Someone else talked about their business.
Someone talked about the music they made.
But it just was so varied that it's been a real surprise to me because I think a lot
of us carry around this very limited understanding of creativity that it can only be in the
arts or the artistic realm or it has to be crafty.
(02:44):
You know, there's something, you know, painting, drawing, sculpting, music, writing, sort
of anything in that space.
And it really is everything.
And so right now, even this conversation you and I are having is creativity.
This is a form of creative expression.
And I never would have considered that until someone commented and explained that to me
(03:06):
in one of these interviews.
So it's been really eye-opening and heart-opening and soul-opening all at once.
Oh, wow.
For each that is so true.
That is a really recurring theme in this podcast is that we're challenging people to think
much broader about creativity and it's not just artistic abilities.
(03:30):
It is almost a mindset or a way of thinking about the world.
And so how have these people come up with this idea that these are creative acts?
Has something happened to them to make them realize or how they come on this journey?
It's been a real mix.
A lot, you know, a number of people spoke about not thinking they were creative because
(03:52):
they had very artistic parents.
And for others, you know, it's been different.
And for some people, it was their personality.
So I spoke to someone who was a particular type that fills their calendar with being
involved in groups.
And in the pandemic, her diary was empty.
And so she had time to reconnect to her true self.
(04:15):
And in doing so, I could hear her creative voice.
Whereas the rest of the time, her personality wanted her to be very influenced by the people
around her.
And so there were a few stories of the pandemic giving space for a way to bring more creativity
out.
But what really got me started on the project is, you know, for those people who know the
(04:38):
Enneagram, they'll know that there's nine core, you know, main types.
And only two of those types are described as creative.
So type four and type seven.
And I'm one of those types.
And I still struggle to express my creativity at times and struggle with these limited mindsets.
But I got curious as to what does creativity look like for the other types?
(05:00):
You know, what does creativity look like if you're a type one or a type six or, you know,
type five?
But what is it?
And it really surprised me how everyone, you know, is creative and how they saw themselves
as creative and really challenged my own biases about it, which was great.
(05:21):
So now, because of this project, like, what's your end goal with this project?
What do you want to do with it?
Nothing.
That's fine.
An exploration of this kind of curiosity is fantastic.
Well, I'm a type seven.
We struggled to finish things.
So my goal was not to interview all 27 types.
(05:42):
It was just to interview at least nine types.
And I think by the end, I would have done about 12 to 15 interviews.
And one thing that consistently people have said to me at the end of each interview was
just how much being asked these questions helped them see creativity more broadly.
And so then what I did was I turned those questions into a document people could download
(06:04):
and take themselves through that.
Because I was like, well, you know, if you can ask yourself these questions in a quiet
space and reflect on it, then that is a great opportunity for everyone to reframe their
perspective of creativity.
Now, after these conversations, you've obviously shifted your view of what creativity is.
(06:26):
Do you have a clearer understanding of what it is now?
Do you have the definition that you'll go to?
Well, to adopt what some of the fours have said, creativity is everything and in everything.
But I still carry around a little bit of a limited bias that sometimes it's just my
form is painting.
And so I feel like I've been creative that day if I've been painting or if I've been
(06:50):
writing because those are sort of my frames.
And so I sometimes still have to remind myself quite consciously that the other things I
do are creative as well.
I spend time with a toddler and a newborn or two month old.
And I have to remind myself that those relationships and this time I spend with them is equally
creative whether I'm doing something or not.
(07:13):
So I think because that mindset of what is valuable in our culture is so ingrained and
that creative expression can only be valued if it is at particular forms where it's well
paid and well remunerated.
(07:35):
And that's the only creativity that matters that it's quite a lot to shed this cultural
overlay of what is creativity.
So even though my understanding is broadened, I think what I got from the series was actually
just a lot of great tools that I could use to continually help shift that bias to ultimately
(07:58):
let it go.
But letting it go isn't an overnight thing.
It takes practice.
It takes practice.
And so are you coaching people on that as part of your business?
Yeah.
So some people I work with around their creative expression directly and I think for others
it's indirect.
Whether you're working on someone's relationship or career or their health or their actual creative
(08:24):
expression, it's in a way it's all the same thing even if you're not speaking about it
in those terms.
The thing I often spend a lot of time with what I find with a lot of my clients when
they realize it or not, they actually have chronic illnesses of some kind.
But again, we live in a world that times tends to shove those things to the side and
(08:45):
put them in the background and sees them as sort of a symptom or something to be ignored
or overlooked as opposed to being a real indicator of a lack of creative expression or a lack
of inability to express ourselves and having to hold something very painful inside to the
point where the body is, "I'm not coping holding this thing inside.
I have to release that tension somehow."
(09:07):
And so I think at the heart of chronic illness is an inability or a fear or a shame or a
guilt, this sense of, "I simply cannot express my true self."
And that really is true creative expression is just expressing your true self in whatever
feels safe and open and easy and natural to you.
(09:31):
And so, yeah, I find there's a bit of an intersection there with the people I work with.
Wow.
So how did you come across that link between chronic illness and creativity?
Well, I've had chronic illness for a very long time.
And so I started my recovery process more actively and more consciously sort of in 2011.
(09:56):
And in addition to sort of working on my physical health in terms of supporting my gut and my
skin and meditate for the pain, all that sort of stuff, I worked with a coach and the thing
I wanted to work on was my creative expression.
And I didn't know about art therapy or anything at the time, and she certainly wasn't a specialist
(10:16):
in art therapy.
But we started getting me to draw like a five-year-old because I just was so blocked and stuck in
this area.
And then we started to progress just playing with different mediums.
And then I just started, I took on the 100-day project and I painted something small every
(10:37):
day.
And eventually took an art class and eventually had my own sort of exhibition, a little gallery.
But what I learned was every time I painted, it gave space for a long, held, deep-seated
emotion to come up.
And in painting intuitively, I could just process it and express it.
(10:58):
And I desperately needed that, you know, and in addition to therapy and all the other bits,
it was an essential part of my recovery process.
So I painted solidly for four years.
And then I took a break and then I sort of started getting back into it in bits and pieces.
And I think it's just recently, which is partly what triggered this project, was that I wanted
(11:22):
to start painting again, but couldn't have all my stuff because I'm sort of a tinerant,
you know, living out of a suitcase type person at the moment.
And so I had this little watercolor kit and some watercolor paints.
It's all very small, but I'm not comfortable or used to working with watercolors.
I've never managed to master watercolors, especially as an abstract expressionist, intuitive type
(11:47):
painter.
And so all this judgment was coming back up again.
You can't do this.
You have to start like the five year old, the child.
You definitely can't approach the blank canvas.
All this negativity.
And one of the things that my Enneagram mentor helped me to see was that was my negative
inner critic or my, you know, a very negative internal parent commenting on this, which was
(12:10):
holding me back from expressing my creativity and form.
And so what she asked me to do was to only say nice, positive things about whatever I
painted.
It didn't matter what it was, just whatever.
And it worked.
It was weird and uncomfortable to do it at first.
And it felt really silly.
But then it became such a joy to go, oh, yes, I really enjoy painting those trees.
(12:36):
Look at all those colors.
Look at that structure.
Maybe we could play with that in a different way.
And then what if we sort of did flowers or mountains or what if we just did, you know,
painted like a Rothko or just, you know, went crazy with it and it switched the critic into
curiosity.
And I've always been a big fan of giving yourself the permission to make bad art and how empowering
(13:01):
it is.
But even I forget it sometimes and it feels wasteful and, you know, like you really shouldn't
be doing it.
But I almost think there's nothing more empowering than making bad art and being okay with it.
Because the more you make, the more something interesting comes out of the process because
it becomes a practice rather than a focus on some particular outcome.
(13:24):
Absolutely.
And that really points back to what you said before that we're so trained to focus on the
outcome and producing something at the end of it.
Where so much of it is just about playing with what you have in front of you and just enjoying
the process and the whole thing of start to finish starting as an amateur, as that five-year-old
(13:52):
with your paints.
That's really cool.
And so are you still noodling around with these types of things and looking for, you
know, once you've mastered your watercolors, are you looking for your next challenge just
to keep yourself on your toes?
I think I finally accepted that painting can just be a hobby.
(14:16):
And I spent a long time trying to make any interest I had into this business opportunity.
You know, again, to be valuable, it had to be something you turn into a side hustle.
And I think finally shedding that belief that art has to be valuable to be worth spending
time in means that I can just say I paint for fun.
(14:37):
This is just something, it's for mindfulness, it's for play, it's nothing more than just
my own pleasure.
Yeah.
How freeing is that, that mind shift?
So freeing.
It's taken me a long time to get there though, but very much so.
So if it's just for a hobby and everyone is creative, do you think that, do you think that
(15:06):
everyone should have a creative hobby on the side?
Great question.
I think everyone probably does have a creative hobby on the side, even if they don't think
of it as a creative hobby on the side.
Oh, okay.
So someone I spoke to in the interview series talked about her garden and gardening is being
a creative process.
(15:26):
I think a lot of people who garden wouldn't think of it as a creative process.
And so I think because humans are all naturally creative, that somewhere in our lives, whether
at work or at play, we're bringing creativity in, but just not calling it that because we
don't have the permission to use that kind of labeling in language.
Do you think it's important to label it as creativity?
(15:50):
I think so.
Yeah, because we're all naturally creative and yet most of us carry some sort of like
wounding about not being allowed to be creative.
And if like being human is to create, then I think it's important that we all recognize
that that's part of ourselves because it creates more freedom and flow in whatever it is that
(16:11):
we do do.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
That freedom of giving yourself permission to create is such an interesting, such an
interesting concept because we've gone from having society putting these limits on us
(16:31):
saying, well, if you're not going to do it for money, you shouldn't be doing it to then
us putting our limits on ourselves.
How do you, how do we navigate that?
Yeah, I've been learning a lot about how we internalize these messages because society
(16:53):
can create rules that we need to follow.
But then if we can then be shamed, we'll follow the rules ourselves, which means society has
to put less effort into controlling us.
And so I think a lot of us have shame that we're holding around creativity that is part
of these internalized rules that we have to follow that we need to let go of.
So the first thing to do, and we talk about this in the Enneagram world all the time,
(17:19):
is becoming aware of it.
And that can be as simple as asking yourself, what are you not allowed to create?
And it could also be, how do you define creativity and how could that be limiting you?
Simply trying to bring some of these thoughts and feelings to the surface means you then
can play with them and change them because you can't change what you're not conscious
(17:43):
of.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
So just awareness is the first step there.
Always.
Always the first step.
That's cool.
So how do you think if people to have like their first step on their journey to tap into
what is their inner creativity?
(18:05):
How do you do that?
Because that sounds like it requires a lot of soul searching or reflection, which is
something that people don't often do on a daily basis.
Well, how do we get these skills?
How do we build these skills?
I think it can be as simple as picking up a pen and paper and just drawing circles or
shapes on the page and then just observing how you react to it.
(18:31):
So what negative thoughts come up?
What negative feelings come up?
How does it make you want to react, run and hide in some way?
Because we don't have to necessarily go out and do huge things in order to get our ego
(18:51):
or our inner critic to pipe up and say, "Oh, that's not allowed.
That's not part of the internalized rule set.
I need to make you feel bad so you stop doing it."
And it's only when you see that's coming up and then that you separate from it by building
your own inner observer and your inner witness to realize that actually that voice isn't
you, but it's a set of internalized beliefs that may or may not be serving you, that you
(19:16):
can then start to be curious.
That voice is saying lots of negative things.
It doesn't like the idea of me drawing.
Why is that?
If I'm not allowed to draw, what am I allowed to do?
Am I comfortable living that way and just being curious and making more space for the
risers?
(19:37):
It sounds like that would be a very confronting process for a lot of people.
Trying to be curious and then sitting with perhaps being uncomfortable with what's coming
out of it.
That would require a lot of work as well.
And it's really interesting you say that because that's true.
(20:00):
Really solid development work is uncomfortable.
It's not pretty.
It's not necessary about chasing happiness.
It's about acknowledging that we're carrying around a lot of mud to put it politely and
that we only get to release that or let that go when we sit with it, acknowledge it and
(20:25):
stay with it.
I talk about healing and growth.
As first you have to grow the capacity to stay with discomfort so you can see what's
underneath to heal it.
And so growing our ability to stay with those uncomfortable feelings really is the first
step of inner work or whatever inner work journey that you're on.
(20:47):
Whether it's to heal your chronic illness or to change how you are in your relationships
or any other aspect of your life.
Do you get a little pushback with your clients because that is such an uncomfortable topic?
Yes and no.
The ego pushes back but the real self doesn't.
And so it's about finding space to sit in that discomfort and sit with the resistance
(21:12):
because that's where the real gold is.
Because if you can stay with that resistance you can release it.
It's only when we can, I think you stay truly with uncomfortable sensations for like 11 seconds
and with feelings for like 15 seconds.
(21:33):
So it's not necessarily that you have to stay with them for very long but most of us don't
even have the capacity to do that.
And so we still have to build that.
And so being in a coaching relationship in a space that's safe with someone helping you
be in that space makes it a little bit easier than doing some of it on your own.
(21:55):
So it's really learning how to create a safe space either by yourself or in some sort of
coaching whether it's one-on-one or group sort of situation.
And do you work with people one-on-one or in a group based sort of model?
At the moment I mostly work one-on-one but I plan to add group coaching in the future.
(22:18):
Okay and so how is this all your learnings here about creativity?
How has that impacted your approach to this type of coaching?
Great question.
I use the Enneagram as a framework and so I use that as the lens through which to see
(22:38):
a person.
And so just as a short hang, because I know I haven't actually described or defined the
Enneagram and people probably have googled it already while we've been talking.
But the short version is the Enneagram is a psycho spiritual tool for development for
adult development.
So as children it's pretty obvious when we're growing up what the stages of development
(22:59):
are but as an adult we just feel like we get to a certain age and then it's really just
downhill as we age towards whoever old we get.
And actually adulthood has a series of defined stages of development that most of us never
really go through.
And so most of us are just children running around in grown-up bodies for 40 to 60 years.
(23:21):
And so the Enneagram provides a bit of a map as to what adult development looks like.
And so within the nine types there are three centres of intelligence and there are those
body types, heart types and head types.
And so what that means from a coaching perspective is with a body type I do more body-based exercises
(23:46):
and connect in with the sensations.
For the heart types we do more feeling-based exercises and then for the head types more
analytical or logic-based conversations.
That's something to start with.
Eventually you need to bring all centres online and challenge someone to start balancing out
the centres.
And so I look at that and I think okay when we're going to be doing creativity or when
(24:08):
I'm bringing creativity in how does it fit within that?
What might be blocking someone from releasing their creativity?
Because each centre is also associated with a particular emotion.
So the body types its anger, the heart types its grief or sadness at loss and the head
types its fear.
(24:28):
And so it's sort of using all these pieces plus a whole range of other tools and practices
to go like what is holding your creativity within you?
And what are some of the ways we can use like the knowledge of the Enneagram to help you
start bringing that out?
And so that's why I find the Enneagram a useful framework because it can shortcut some of
(24:50):
that testing what might work for this person because it can get to the core issue a little
bit faster and then you can do the practices that will make the most difference.
How did you come across the Enneagram in the first place?
Because I know there's a lot of tools out there all slightly different with some similarities.
(25:11):
How did you find that one and choose that one as your tool of choice?
Because I've used a lot of the tools, I've studied a lot of the tools and again none
of them really fit right.
None of them I never thought, "Oh yes, that's the one."
So I first heard about the Enneagram when I was working at a change project and the
(25:33):
client came up to me and said, "This is an organisation of sixes."
And I went, "What does that mean?
I don't understand."
He handed me the book and I just still couldn't wrap my head around it.
And so I sort of put it down and forgot about it.
And honestly, if I'd known that would have changed everything because yes, they really
were an organisation of sixes and it was challenging in its own way.
(25:57):
And then a few years later, I was studying the Myers-Briggs system and through that got
introduced to the Enneagram and through there came through the CP Enneagram Academy and
accidentally ended up in one of their courses as I'm prone to do.
(26:19):
I went, "Oh, this is it."
And just went from there and this course I accidentally ended up on was about how do
you use the Enneagram in coaching basically.
And that's not what I thought I was signing up for.
But that's not what the universe had in mind.
So that's perfect.
And yeah, just seeing how you could use this framework to adapt to suit each of the types
(26:43):
and how that could support them to feel safer and more seen and heard and witnessed in the
process to me was just amazing.
That's cool.
Do you think that on upon reflection, some of the other tools, they weren't quite the
right fit for you.
Do you think that was because they didn't have that creative base in there?
(27:05):
What the Enneagram brings is a look at our deeper motivations and why things don't go
the way we want them to in life and the role your ego personality plays.
And the other tools to me were too positive, too strengths focused, too reinforcing the
(27:30):
current scenario.
And in some ways, they're great for different levels of awareness and different stages of
development.
But where I wanted to go and what really got me curious is why do we get chronic illnesses?
Why can't we express our creativity?
What stops us from being in our full humanness?
(27:51):
And to me, the Enneagram is the main tool I've come across that really helps to answer
that question.
That's cool.
I love that you've got this framework that can help guide these types of conversations
and discoveries.
So what is next on your creative journey?
(28:12):
Well, just to put you on the spot.
There's a couple of things.
I'm like, oh, okay, let's say there's two projects.
So one of the things I've been working on is being able to publish my own writing because
that I've had a lot of fear and anxiety around that.
And so I've just gotten to the point where I'm starting to put out regular articles and
(28:37):
blogs and things completely just in my own words.
My personality's pattern of behavior and trying to keep myself safe was to just talk about
what other people had said about things.
And so that might look like teaching someone else's version of the Enneagram rather than
teaching my own reflections or perspectives on it.
(28:57):
And so I'm really excited to finally feel myself in flow creatively around my words
because I've written thousands and thousands of words over the years and I've half written
several books that I just haven't, that have hit this creative roadblock due to fear in
some form.
And so I'm really excited to really feel like I've finally wrangled with that and to, I
(29:20):
really want to nurture the flow I've got right now and not take it for granted.
So it's the nurturing of that.
And then I think the next sort of creative rabbit hole I want to fall into is something
a bit nerdy.
It's teaching a side of the Enneagram that's like a map for transformational change.
(29:43):
So I know, I know.
So when you look at the Enneagram, it's a symbol, it's a circle with a triangle and then what's
called a hexad is these lines inside it.
And most people look at it and think, okay, the nine types are at each point on the outside
and the lines inside represent the arrows, which is how we move under stress and all
these resources for growth.
(30:04):
That's only one side of the coin.
The other side of the coin is that's actually a map for movement.
And so the very first step on the map for change is what I spoke about earlier.
It's about becoming conscious that we have a problem.
So step one is what's my problem?
And step two is, well, how do I want to solve this problem?
(30:28):
And then step three is, oh, this is really scary.
Do I actually want to embark on it?
Oh, I can trick myself into believing that the journey is going to be okay.
Great.
And so something has to sort of push us over that line before we sort of start on the scary
process of change.
And I really want to study this more in depth and then learn how to teach it in a way that's
(30:52):
accessible for people because it's really a very esoteric part of the Enneagram that
most people haven't heard of or know about because it's just so complex.
So those are my two creative projects.
That's so cool.
And it's kind of meta.
You're talking about this map and the scariness and pushing yourself through the scariness
(31:16):
yet just prior to that, you're saying you're having to do that at the same time that you're
in writing.
It's amazing that your journey in uncovering more about the Enneagram is also helping you
at the same time.
Absolutely.
And one of the, with the program I studied with to become an Enneagram professional requires
(31:37):
you to do your own development work and assesses you on that.
So you can't, you're not certified, accredited, whatever, until you can demonstrate that you
have actually grown through the process.
And so that's sort of really key.
And kind of once you get started, it can be hard to stop.
The other thing, the other connection, I think, to the process Enneagram is I recently read
(32:02):
a book about someone else's journey with chronic illness.
I can't quite remember the name right now.
It's got Kingdom in the title.
I'll find it and send it to you.
But as I read the book, even though our stories are entirely different, the locations, the
illnesses are all different, I still saw a lot of similar steps in the process.
(32:23):
And you know, many of the challenges she had was challenges that I had as well.
And it just got me thinking that maybe there is some similarity in the recovery process
from chronic illness, even if everyone's journey looks different, that maybe there
are still some steps we all have to go through.
Some people might include creativity.
(32:44):
Some people might not.
But there's always a need to express something that's been deeply held for a long time.
And yeah, I kind of want to make, given how much chronic illness currently exists in the
world, I want to make that, that tool more available to support people on that, on their
(33:05):
healing and recovery journeys.
Oh yeah, that sounds great.
I think anything that can help others heal and better connect to themselves and to others,
that's just wonderful.
And I will definitely put the links to your writings if you're comfortable and the other
(33:26):
resources in our show notes, because I think this is such an interesting topic and there's
so much more to it.
Yeah, I really want to thank you for coming in today, Samantha.
Oh, thank you.
And I hope we've included enough practical tools for people.
They feel that there's something for them.
I think like with most of it, we're just scratching the surface and there's so much more to it.
(33:50):
So I'm sure that we're getting quite a few clicks through those links.
But I also want to say thank you so much to everyone who has tuned into Creativity (33:55):
Uncovered
today.
I really hope this episode has inspired you just to channel your inner self and get to
know yourself a little bit better and that it helps you summon your creativity the next
time that you need it.
.
.
(34:16):
Yeah.
If you've made it this far, a huge thank you for your support and tuning into today's episode.
Creativity (34:49):
Uncovered has been lovingly recorded on the land of the Kabi Kabi people and
we pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging.
This podcast has been produced by my amazing team here at Crisp Communications and the
music you just heard was composed by James Gatling.
If you liked this episode, please do share it around and help us on our mission to unlock
(35:14):
more creativity in this world.
You can also hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any new episode releases.
.
[BLANK_AUDIO]
Do you feel like you could be creative but you just don't know how to express yourself?
(00:12):
Or perhaps you felt creative in the past and it's been quite some time since you've tapped
into that?
Well, if so, this episode of creating Uncovered is the thing that you may just need right
now.
Hello, my name is Abi Gatling and I am on a journey to uncover how everyday people
(00:33):
find inspiration, get inventive and open their imagination.
Basically, I want to know how people find creative solutions and how they use them at
home, work, play and everything in between.
And my goal for this podcast is that by the end of it, you'll be armed with a whole suite
of tried and tested ways to summon creativity the next time that you need it.
(00:56):
Today, I'm speaking with Samantha Mackay who is a personal development and Enneagram coach
who helps people tap into their true selves.
And I'm super interested to find out more.
(01:16):
So welcome, Samantha.
Thank you.
Beautiful intro there and about creativity and tapping into that part of ourselves which
I've recently discovered is far more holistic than I could ever have imagined.
Oh, okay.
This is a good place to start.
Do tell.
What do you mean by that?
(01:37):
Well, I've recently been doing this project about creativity in the Enneagram where I've
been interviewing people of different types because for me, I've always thought creativity
was just about painting or drawing and you could either do it or you couldn't.
And as I've been speaking to people, I've discovered so many different perspectives
on creativity that I just couldn't have imagined.
(01:59):
You know, for some people, I spoke to someone yesterday and she was saying the creation she's
most proud of is the relationships with her husband and children and the home she's built.
Someone else spoke about being really proud of their recent travel planning and crafting
an experience that they wanted to have when they're spending a month in Fiji.
(02:23):
Someone else talked about their business.
Someone talked about the music they made.
But it just was so varied that it's been a real surprise to me because I think a lot
of us carry around this very limited understanding of creativity that it can only be in the
arts or the artistic realm or it has to be crafty.
(02:44):
You know, there's something, you know, painting, drawing, sculpting, music, writing, sort
of anything in that space.
And it really is everything.
And so right now, even this conversation you and I are having is creativity.
This is a form of creative expression.
And I never would have considered that until someone commented and explained that to me
(03:06):
in one of these interviews.
So it's been really eye-opening and heart-opening and soul-opening all at once.
Oh, wow.
For each that is so true.
That is a really recurring theme in this podcast is that we're challenging people to think
much broader about creativity and it's not just artistic abilities.
(03:30):
It is almost a mindset or a way of thinking about the world.
And so how have these people come up with this idea that these are creative acts?
Has something happened to them to make them realize or how they come on this journey?
It's been a real mix.
A lot, you know, a number of people spoke about not thinking they were creative because
(03:52):
they had very artistic parents.
And for others, you know, it's been different.
And for some people, it was their personality.
So I spoke to someone who was a particular type that fills their calendar with being
involved in groups.
And in the pandemic, her diary was empty.
And so she had time to reconnect to her true self.
(04:15):
And in doing so, I could hear her creative voice.
Whereas the rest of the time, her personality wanted her to be very influenced by the people
around her.
And so there were a few stories of the pandemic giving space for a way to bring more creativity
out.
But what really got me started on the project is, you know, for those people who know the
(04:38):
Enneagram, they'll know that there's nine core, you know, main types.
And only two of those types are described as creative.
So type four and type seven.
And I'm one of those types.
And I still struggle to express my creativity at times and struggle with these limited mindsets.
But I got curious as to what does creativity look like for the other types?
(05:00):
You know, what does creativity look like if you're a type one or a type six or, you know,
type five?
But what is it?
And it really surprised me how everyone, you know, is creative and how they saw themselves
as creative and really challenged my own biases about it, which was great.
(05:21):
So now, because of this project, like, what's your end goal with this project?
What do you want to do with it?
Nothing.
That's fine.
An exploration of this kind of curiosity is fantastic.
Well, I'm a type seven.
We struggled to finish things.
So my goal was not to interview all 27 types.
(05:42):
It was just to interview at least nine types.
And I think by the end, I would have done about 12 to 15 interviews.
And one thing that consistently people have said to me at the end of each interview was
just how much being asked these questions helped them see creativity more broadly.
And so then what I did was I turned those questions into a document people could download
(06:04):
and take themselves through that.
Because I was like, well, you know, if you can ask yourself these questions in a quiet
space and reflect on it, then that is a great opportunity for everyone to reframe their
perspective of creativity.
Now, after these conversations, you've obviously shifted your view of what creativity is.
(06:26):
Do you have a clearer understanding of what it is now?
Do you have the definition that you'll go to?
Well, to adopt what some of the fours have said, creativity is everything and in everything.
But I still carry around a little bit of a limited bias that sometimes it's just my
form is painting.
And so I feel like I've been creative that day if I've been painting or if I've been
(06:50):
writing because those are sort of my frames.
And so I sometimes still have to remind myself quite consciously that the other things I
do are creative as well.
I spend time with a toddler and a newborn or two month old.
And I have to remind myself that those relationships and this time I spend with them is equally
creative whether I'm doing something or not.
(07:13):
So I think because that mindset of what is valuable in our culture is so ingrained and
that creative expression can only be valued if it is at particular forms where it's well
paid and well remunerated.
(07:35):
And that's the only creativity that matters that it's quite a lot to shed this cultural
overlay of what is creativity.
So even though my understanding is broadened, I think what I got from the series was actually
just a lot of great tools that I could use to continually help shift that bias to ultimately
(07:58):
let it go.
But letting it go isn't an overnight thing.
It takes practice.
It takes practice.
And so are you coaching people on that as part of your business?
Yeah.
So some people I work with around their creative expression directly and I think for others
it's indirect.
Whether you're working on someone's relationship or career or their health or their actual creative
(08:24):
expression, it's in a way it's all the same thing even if you're not speaking about it
in those terms.
The thing I often spend a lot of time with what I find with a lot of my clients when
they realize it or not, they actually have chronic illnesses of some kind.
But again, we live in a world that times tends to shove those things to the side and
(08:45):
put them in the background and sees them as sort of a symptom or something to be ignored
or overlooked as opposed to being a real indicator of a lack of creative expression or a lack
of inability to express ourselves and having to hold something very painful inside to the
point where the body is, "I'm not coping holding this thing inside.
I have to release that tension somehow."
(09:07):
And so I think at the heart of chronic illness is an inability or a fear or a shame or a
guilt, this sense of, "I simply cannot express my true self."
And that really is true creative expression is just expressing your true self in whatever
feels safe and open and easy and natural to you.
(09:31):
And so, yeah, I find there's a bit of an intersection there with the people I work with.
Wow.
So how did you come across that link between chronic illness and creativity?
Well, I've had chronic illness for a very long time.
And so I started my recovery process more actively and more consciously sort of in 2011.
(09:56):
And in addition to sort of working on my physical health in terms of supporting my gut and my
skin and meditate for the pain, all that sort of stuff, I worked with a coach and the thing
I wanted to work on was my creative expression.
And I didn't know about art therapy or anything at the time, and she certainly wasn't a specialist
(10:16):
in art therapy.
But we started getting me to draw like a five-year-old because I just was so blocked and stuck in
this area.
And then we started to progress just playing with different mediums.
And then I just started, I took on the 100-day project and I painted something small every
(10:37):
day.
And eventually took an art class and eventually had my own sort of exhibition, a little gallery.
But what I learned was every time I painted, it gave space for a long, held, deep-seated
emotion to come up.
And in painting intuitively, I could just process it and express it.
(10:58):
And I desperately needed that, you know, and in addition to therapy and all the other bits,
it was an essential part of my recovery process.
So I painted solidly for four years.
And then I took a break and then I sort of started getting back into it in bits and pieces.
And I think it's just recently, which is partly what triggered this project, was that I wanted
(11:22):
to start painting again, but couldn't have all my stuff because I'm sort of a tinerant,
you know, living out of a suitcase type person at the moment.
And so I had this little watercolor kit and some watercolor paints.
It's all very small, but I'm not comfortable or used to working with watercolors.
I've never managed to master watercolors, especially as an abstract expressionist, intuitive type
(11:47):
painter.
And so all this judgment was coming back up again.
You can't do this.
You have to start like the five year old, the child.
You definitely can't approach the blank canvas.
All this negativity.
And one of the things that my Enneagram mentor helped me to see was that was my negative
inner critic or my, you know, a very negative internal parent commenting on this, which was
(12:10):
holding me back from expressing my creativity and form.
And so what she asked me to do was to only say nice, positive things about whatever I
painted.
It didn't matter what it was, just whatever.
And it worked.
It was weird and uncomfortable to do it at first.
And it felt really silly.
But then it became such a joy to go, oh, yes, I really enjoy painting those trees.
(12:36):
Look at all those colors.
Look at that structure.
Maybe we could play with that in a different way.
And then what if we sort of did flowers or mountains or what if we just did, you know,
painted like a Rothko or just, you know, went crazy with it and it switched the critic into
curiosity.
And I've always been a big fan of giving yourself the permission to make bad art and how empowering
(13:01):
it is.
But even I forget it sometimes and it feels wasteful and, you know, like you really shouldn't
be doing it.
But I almost think there's nothing more empowering than making bad art and being okay with it.
Because the more you make, the more something interesting comes out of the process because
it becomes a practice rather than a focus on some particular outcome.
(13:24):
Absolutely.
And that really points back to what you said before that we're so trained to focus on the
outcome and producing something at the end of it.
Where so much of it is just about playing with what you have in front of you and just enjoying
the process and the whole thing of start to finish starting as an amateur, as that five-year-old
(13:52):
with your paints.
That's really cool.
And so are you still noodling around with these types of things and looking for, you
know, once you've mastered your watercolors, are you looking for your next challenge just
to keep yourself on your toes?
I think I finally accepted that painting can just be a hobby.
(14:16):
And I spent a long time trying to make any interest I had into this business opportunity.
You know, again, to be valuable, it had to be something you turn into a side hustle.
And I think finally shedding that belief that art has to be valuable to be worth spending
time in means that I can just say I paint for fun.
(14:37):
This is just something, it's for mindfulness, it's for play, it's nothing more than just
my own pleasure.
Yeah.
How freeing is that, that mind shift?
So freeing.
It's taken me a long time to get there though, but very much so.
So if it's just for a hobby and everyone is creative, do you think that, do you think that
(15:06):
everyone should have a creative hobby on the side?
Great question.
I think everyone probably does have a creative hobby on the side, even if they don't think
of it as a creative hobby on the side.
Oh, okay.
So someone I spoke to in the interview series talked about her garden and gardening is being
a creative process.
(15:26):
I think a lot of people who garden wouldn't think of it as a creative process.
And so I think because humans are all naturally creative, that somewhere in our lives, whether
at work or at play, we're bringing creativity in, but just not calling it that because we
don't have the permission to use that kind of labeling in language.
Do you think it's important to label it as creativity?
(15:50):
I think so.
Yeah, because we're all naturally creative and yet most of us carry some sort of like
wounding about not being allowed to be creative.
And if like being human is to create, then I think it's important that we all recognize
that that's part of ourselves because it creates more freedom and flow in whatever it is that
(16:11):
we do do.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
That freedom of giving yourself permission to create is such an interesting, such an
interesting concept because we've gone from having society putting these limits on us
(16:31):
saying, well, if you're not going to do it for money, you shouldn't be doing it to then
us putting our limits on ourselves.
How do you, how do we navigate that?
Yeah, I've been learning a lot about how we internalize these messages because society
(16:53):
can create rules that we need to follow.
But then if we can then be shamed, we'll follow the rules ourselves, which means society has
to put less effort into controlling us.
And so I think a lot of us have shame that we're holding around creativity that is part
of these internalized rules that we have to follow that we need to let go of.
So the first thing to do, and we talk about this in the Enneagram world all the time,
(17:19):
is becoming aware of it.
And that can be as simple as asking yourself, what are you not allowed to create?
And it could also be, how do you define creativity and how could that be limiting you?
Simply trying to bring some of these thoughts and feelings to the surface means you then
can play with them and change them because you can't change what you're not conscious
(17:43):
of.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
So just awareness is the first step there.
Always.
Always the first step.
That's cool.
So how do you think if people to have like their first step on their journey to tap into
what is their inner creativity?
(18:05):
How do you do that?
Because that sounds like it requires a lot of soul searching or reflection, which is
something that people don't often do on a daily basis.
Well, how do we get these skills?
How do we build these skills?
I think it can be as simple as picking up a pen and paper and just drawing circles or
shapes on the page and then just observing how you react to it.
(18:31):
So what negative thoughts come up?
What negative feelings come up?
How does it make you want to react, run and hide in some way?
Because we don't have to necessarily go out and do huge things in order to get our ego
(18:51):
or our inner critic to pipe up and say, "Oh, that's not allowed.
That's not part of the internalized rule set.
I need to make you feel bad so you stop doing it."
And it's only when you see that's coming up and then that you separate from it by building
your own inner observer and your inner witness to realize that actually that voice isn't
you, but it's a set of internalized beliefs that may or may not be serving you, that you
(19:16):
can then start to be curious.
That voice is saying lots of negative things.
It doesn't like the idea of me drawing.
Why is that?
If I'm not allowed to draw, what am I allowed to do?
Am I comfortable living that way and just being curious and making more space for the
risers?
(19:37):
It sounds like that would be a very confronting process for a lot of people.
Trying to be curious and then sitting with perhaps being uncomfortable with what's coming
out of it.
That would require a lot of work as well.
And it's really interesting you say that because that's true.
(20:00):
Really solid development work is uncomfortable.
It's not pretty.
It's not necessary about chasing happiness.
It's about acknowledging that we're carrying around a lot of mud to put it politely and
that we only get to release that or let that go when we sit with it, acknowledge it and
(20:25):
stay with it.
I talk about healing and growth.
As first you have to grow the capacity to stay with discomfort so you can see what's
underneath to heal it.
And so growing our ability to stay with those uncomfortable feelings really is the first
step of inner work or whatever inner work journey that you're on.
(20:47):
Whether it's to heal your chronic illness or to change how you are in your relationships
or any other aspect of your life.
Do you get a little pushback with your clients because that is such an uncomfortable topic?
Yes and no.
The ego pushes back but the real self doesn't.
And so it's about finding space to sit in that discomfort and sit with the resistance
(21:12):
because that's where the real gold is.
Because if you can stay with that resistance you can release it.
It's only when we can, I think you stay truly with uncomfortable sensations for like 11 seconds
and with feelings for like 15 seconds.
(21:33):
So it's not necessarily that you have to stay with them for very long but most of us don't
even have the capacity to do that.
And so we still have to build that.
And so being in a coaching relationship in a space that's safe with someone helping you
be in that space makes it a little bit easier than doing some of it on your own.
(21:55):
So it's really learning how to create a safe space either by yourself or in some sort of
coaching whether it's one-on-one or group sort of situation.
And do you work with people one-on-one or in a group based sort of model?
At the moment I mostly work one-on-one but I plan to add group coaching in the future.
(22:18):
Okay and so how is this all your learnings here about creativity?
How has that impacted your approach to this type of coaching?
Great question.
I use the Enneagram as a framework and so I use that as the lens through which to see
(22:38):
a person.
And so just as a short hang, because I know I haven't actually described or defined the
Enneagram and people probably have googled it already while we've been talking.
But the short version is the Enneagram is a psycho spiritual tool for development for
adult development.
So as children it's pretty obvious when we're growing up what the stages of development
(22:59):
are but as an adult we just feel like we get to a certain age and then it's really just
downhill as we age towards whoever old we get.
And actually adulthood has a series of defined stages of development that most of us never
really go through.
And so most of us are just children running around in grown-up bodies for 40 to 60 years.
(23:21):
And so the Enneagram provides a bit of a map as to what adult development looks like.
And so within the nine types there are three centres of intelligence and there are those
body types, heart types and head types.
And so what that means from a coaching perspective is with a body type I do more body-based exercises
(23:46):
and connect in with the sensations.
For the heart types we do more feeling-based exercises and then for the head types more
analytical or logic-based conversations.
That's something to start with.
Eventually you need to bring all centres online and challenge someone to start balancing out
the centres.
And so I look at that and I think okay when we're going to be doing creativity or when
(24:08):
I'm bringing creativity in how does it fit within that?
What might be blocking someone from releasing their creativity?
Because each centre is also associated with a particular emotion.
So the body types its anger, the heart types its grief or sadness at loss and the head
types its fear.
(24:28):
And so it's sort of using all these pieces plus a whole range of other tools and practices
to go like what is holding your creativity within you?
And what are some of the ways we can use like the knowledge of the Enneagram to help you
start bringing that out?
And so that's why I find the Enneagram a useful framework because it can shortcut some of
(24:50):
that testing what might work for this person because it can get to the core issue a little
bit faster and then you can do the practices that will make the most difference.
How did you come across the Enneagram in the first place?
Because I know there's a lot of tools out there all slightly different with some similarities.
(25:11):
How did you find that one and choose that one as your tool of choice?
Because I've used a lot of the tools, I've studied a lot of the tools and again none
of them really fit right.
None of them I never thought, "Oh yes, that's the one."
So I first heard about the Enneagram when I was working at a change project and the
(25:33):
client came up to me and said, "This is an organisation of sixes."
And I went, "What does that mean?
I don't understand."
He handed me the book and I just still couldn't wrap my head around it.
And so I sort of put it down and forgot about it.
And honestly, if I'd known that would have changed everything because yes, they really
were an organisation of sixes and it was challenging in its own way.
(25:57):
And then a few years later, I was studying the Myers-Briggs system and through that got
introduced to the Enneagram and through there came through the CP Enneagram Academy and
accidentally ended up in one of their courses as I'm prone to do.
(26:19):
I went, "Oh, this is it."
And just went from there and this course I accidentally ended up on was about how do
you use the Enneagram in coaching basically.
And that's not what I thought I was signing up for.
But that's not what the universe had in mind.
So that's perfect.
And yeah, just seeing how you could use this framework to adapt to suit each of the types
(26:43):
and how that could support them to feel safer and more seen and heard and witnessed in the
process to me was just amazing.
That's cool.
Do you think that on upon reflection, some of the other tools, they weren't quite the
right fit for you.
Do you think that was because they didn't have that creative base in there?
(27:05):
What the Enneagram brings is a look at our deeper motivations and why things don't go
the way we want them to in life and the role your ego personality plays.
And the other tools to me were too positive, too strengths focused, too reinforcing the
(27:30):
current scenario.
And in some ways, they're great for different levels of awareness and different stages of
development.
But where I wanted to go and what really got me curious is why do we get chronic illnesses?
Why can't we express our creativity?
What stops us from being in our full humanness?
(27:51):
And to me, the Enneagram is the main tool I've come across that really helps to answer
that question.
That's cool.
I love that you've got this framework that can help guide these types of conversations
and discoveries.
So what is next on your creative journey?
(28:12):
Well, just to put you on the spot.
There's a couple of things.
I'm like, oh, okay, let's say there's two projects.
So one of the things I've been working on is being able to publish my own writing because
that I've had a lot of fear and anxiety around that.
And so I've just gotten to the point where I'm starting to put out regular articles and
(28:37):
blogs and things completely just in my own words.
My personality's pattern of behavior and trying to keep myself safe was to just talk about
what other people had said about things.
And so that might look like teaching someone else's version of the Enneagram rather than
teaching my own reflections or perspectives on it.
(28:57):
And so I'm really excited to finally feel myself in flow creatively around my words
because I've written thousands and thousands of words over the years and I've half written
several books that I just haven't, that have hit this creative roadblock due to fear in
some form.
And so I'm really excited to really feel like I've finally wrangled with that and to, I
(29:20):
really want to nurture the flow I've got right now and not take it for granted.
So it's the nurturing of that.
And then I think the next sort of creative rabbit hole I want to fall into is something
a bit nerdy.
It's teaching a side of the Enneagram that's like a map for transformational change.
(29:43):
So I know, I know.
So when you look at the Enneagram, it's a symbol, it's a circle with a triangle and then what's
called a hexad is these lines inside it.
And most people look at it and think, okay, the nine types are at each point on the outside
and the lines inside represent the arrows, which is how we move under stress and all
these resources for growth.
(30:04):
That's only one side of the coin.
The other side of the coin is that's actually a map for movement.
And so the very first step on the map for change is what I spoke about earlier.
It's about becoming conscious that we have a problem.
So step one is what's my problem?
And step two is, well, how do I want to solve this problem?
(30:28):
And then step three is, oh, this is really scary.
Do I actually want to embark on it?
Oh, I can trick myself into believing that the journey is going to be okay.
Great.
And so something has to sort of push us over that line before we sort of start on the scary
process of change.
And I really want to study this more in depth and then learn how to teach it in a way that's
(30:52):
accessible for people because it's really a very esoteric part of the Enneagram that
most people haven't heard of or know about because it's just so complex.
So those are my two creative projects.
That's so cool.
And it's kind of meta.
You're talking about this map and the scariness and pushing yourself through the scariness
(31:16):
yet just prior to that, you're saying you're having to do that at the same time that you're
in writing.
It's amazing that your journey in uncovering more about the Enneagram is also helping you
at the same time.
Absolutely.
And one of the, with the program I studied with to become an Enneagram professional requires
(31:37):
you to do your own development work and assesses you on that.
So you can't, you're not certified, accredited, whatever, until you can demonstrate that you
have actually grown through the process.
And so that's sort of really key.
And kind of once you get started, it can be hard to stop.
The other thing, the other connection, I think, to the process Enneagram is I recently read
(32:02):
a book about someone else's journey with chronic illness.
I can't quite remember the name right now.
It's got Kingdom in the title.
I'll find it and send it to you.
But as I read the book, even though our stories are entirely different, the locations, the
illnesses are all different, I still saw a lot of similar steps in the process.
(32:23):
And you know, many of the challenges she had was challenges that I had as well.
And it just got me thinking that maybe there is some similarity in the recovery process
from chronic illness, even if everyone's journey looks different, that maybe there
are still some steps we all have to go through.
Some people might include creativity.
(32:44):
Some people might not.
But there's always a need to express something that's been deeply held for a long time.
And yeah, I kind of want to make, given how much chronic illness currently exists in the
world, I want to make that, that tool more available to support people on that, on their
(33:05):
healing and recovery journeys.
Oh yeah, that sounds great.
I think anything that can help others heal and better connect to themselves and to others,
that's just wonderful.
And I will definitely put the links to your writings if you're comfortable and the other
(33:26):
resources in our show notes, because I think this is such an interesting topic and there's
so much more to it.
Yeah, I really want to thank you for coming in today, Samantha.
Oh, thank you.
And I hope we've included enough practical tools for people.
They feel that there's something for them.
I think like with most of it, we're just scratching the surface and there's so much more to it.
(33:50):
So I'm sure that we're getting quite a few clicks through those links.
But I also want to say thank you so much to everyone who has tuned into Creativity (33:55):
Uncovered
today.
I really hope this episode has inspired you just to channel your inner self and get to
know yourself a little bit better and that it helps you summon your creativity the next
time that you need it.
.
.
(34:16):
Yeah.
If you've made it this far, a huge thank you for your support and tuning into today's episode.
Creativity (34:49):
Uncovered has been lovingly recorded on the land of the Kabi Kabi people and
we pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging.
This podcast has been produced by my amazing team here at Crisp Communications and the
music you just heard was composed by James Gatling.
If you liked this episode, please do share it around and help us on our mission to unlock
(35:14):
more creativity in this world.
You can also hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any new episode releases.
.
[BLANK_AUDIO]
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