December 4, 2023 • 38 mins
Should we put to bed the concept of the “starving artist”?
I mean, why is making money from your craft seen as a bad thing?
In this episode of Creativity: Uncovered, I discuss the double-edged sword of popularity with podcaster Alice-Rose Lucchetti.
We chat about Taylor Swift, what it means to be a “sell-out” and the criticism and rules imposed on creatives.
Happy listening!
xo Abi
P.S. For more information about this episode and our guest, head to: www.crispcomms.co/podcast-episodes/why-is-earning-money-from-creativity-bad
Creativity: Uncovered is lovingly edited by the team at Crisp Communications.
Creativity: Uncovered is a registered Australian Trade Mark.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hello and welcome to Creativity (00:00):
Uncovered. My name is Abi Gatling and I am on a journey
(00:11):
to uncover how everyday people find inspiration, get inventive and open their imagination.
So basically I want to find out how people find creative solutions and then how they
use that at home, work, play and everything in between. And my goal for this podcast is that
(00:32):
by the end of it you'll be armed to the whole suite of tribe and tested ways to some incredible
deeds the next time that you need it. So today I'm speaking with Alice-Rose Lucchetti and Alice is a
podcast operations coordinator. She has her own podcast as well and she's the founder of Seed
(00:55):
Monster Productions and I just I really wanted to reach out to Alice because of an episode on her
podcast The Sounds of Reason. It just really intrigued me and it was talking about making
money as a creative and that sort of double-edged sword of popularity. So I'm really looking forward
to unpacking that one today. So welcome Alice. Hi Abi. Yeah I'm so excited to talk about this
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and obviously thank you for reaching out again and finding the podcast and listening to the episode
and yeah I definitely think everything that you just said about finding that safe space with
creativity and how we need to be mindful of the fact that creativity is for everyone and it's
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not this thing that needs to be exclusive or elite or anything like that. And I think the
Taylor Swift example is a good one with the double-edged sword thing that kind of happens with her
where she became really successful and is currently really successful and is basically
(02:03):
the biggest artist at the moment on the planet. Yeah and is literally making obscene amount of money
which I just think as an artist like she must be looking at her career being like
how because she's already been so successful in the past and I think every time she breaks through
a new like achievement she must just be looking at her career like how like am I here?
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Yeah exactly and I just think the way that she's been treated in the last six months and she's
already had this kind of treatment before as an artist but I think with the Errors tour especially
and how much success has come off the back of this tour people have kind of been saying statements
(02:50):
like oh but like you know why is she successful and you know her music is you know formulaic
and it's generic and who cares and people are really kind of diminishing her abilities as an
artist and I think also as a woman and I think you know there's probably two sides of the arguments
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where it's like are people criticizing her because they genuinely don't think she's a good or strong
artist or are they criticizing her because she's a woman and there's a lot of misogyny that you
know goes around especially in the industry. So I much tried into it and you know like so I was at
a folk festival earlier this year and they do the song competition every year where they choose
(03:37):
one artist and they invite all the bands that perform to submit a song and they have to do
like a variation of this artist yeah of their songs and they've had the waves they've had Elton John
they had Dolly Parton as well and I really got to be in my bonnet about this thing because
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it had been running for 20 years or so and Dolly Parton was the first woman soloist who had been
chosen to be celebrated in the song competition and so when they were putting the call out for
who is the next artist that's going to be celebrated for next year's festival I was like
Taylor Swift Taylor Swift I was yelling this out I'm not a massive Taylor Swift fan but I was like
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she's a woman she's got a huge repertoire to call upon she's a folk artist and the amount of
booze that came back after I yelled that out really absolutely shocking and so when I heard your
episode which if you haven't already picked up on it's called she's not even that good a lyricist
(04:48):
the double-edged sword of popularity of pop music and I was like I have to talk to you about this
because why did that happen what is going on here why is there so much hate going towards that
yeah and I think it's interesting because there's also another thing to that about her folk genre
and her country music background I think even when she was an upcoming artist and did a lot more of
(05:13):
that country sound within the country community but I also think the pop music community people
just didn't want to validate the type of music she was claiming she was making in that genre like
people like oh she's not really that much of a pop musician or whatever and then people in the
country music community were oh she's not really that country it's like the amount of like
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weird rules and regulations exactly it's like you know I understand that we have to be somewhat
you know like logical about the like saying what genre of music we're making to like help people
I don't know understand the type of music you're making but at the end of the day I think
people just wanted a reason to nitpick the type of music that she's making or claiming that she
(06:02):
was making and you know the fact that people booed your comment I think says a lot about
you know not everyone feels that way about Taylor Swift but I do think anytime someone becomes very
popular people claim it to be overrated and if people view something to be overrated they claim
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it to be not very good or if they even if they think it's good they're just kind of like oh well
everyone else likes that and I don't want to like that I'm like sure people might have legitimate
reasons again why they don't like Taylor Swift's music but I don't think that that's the kind of
commentary we're seeing online or in general I think people are actually like diminishing her
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abilities as an artist because they're saying things like oh she's not even that good of a lyricist
like is she even a real musician or she just uses the same Ford chords
as if like they're all bad things you know like it's just yeah yeah so much criticism and I think
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so when I reached out to you we sort of got onto the topic of making money as an artist or as a
creative and how that in itself is also a double-edged sword that we all have to pay our bills and
and if you make too much money you're seen as a seller like talk to me about that yeah I think
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it's interesting like obviously the people who come up as like indie folk artists or you know
maybe they start from nothing and then gain a bit of success and I feel like that's within every
music community whether it's like you're a DJ or you know you're a classical musician it doesn't
really matter it's like people don't want to feel like you sell out at any point because then they
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feel like you're no longer this like pure artist that they started listening to and obviously there
will always be people who are happy for you that you're like gaining success or you are starting
to get you know money where you can finance your creative endeavors but I feel like people associate
things like advertisement and sponsorships and even asking for money for like seeing them live
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I think people associate that as like oh like why why do they suddenly need money like don't
they love what they do and or people look at advertisement think that's yucky like why would
they sell themselves out like that but it's like at the end of the day for people who want to work
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in the creative industries there has to be some leeway because if people want to make money off
being a creative they at some point they have to either get with advertising or they have to get with
sponsorships or they have to accept the fact that they need money if they play live you they
can't just be playing live for free anymore and I think people in the creative industries really
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exploit creative individuals a lot of the time because they go oh like we won't pay you but this
is really good exposure and it's like yeah but I understand if someone does that once like or a
couple times when they're maybe in university or in high school but if you have a degree or you have
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a serious portfolio of things that you've achieved as a creative person you shouldn't be doing that
for free after a certain point like you should be being paid for that work and it feels so yucky to
say it to people to be like actually I don't want to do that because I don't think that I see
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like any financial compensation for the work that I'm doing it's really hard to be proactively
saying that to people because it feels yucky because you're like oh like this is something
creative I should just love to do it for free anyway but if someone genuinely wants to make money
off the creative endeavors they do they should be 100 allowed to and on the other side of that I'm
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sure there are creative people who go being creative is just a hobby I don't want to make money from it
and I just do it for fun like I don't need money from anyone and that's also fine because they've
made that choice but I think people are people are just highly critical when it comes to seeing an
artist go from pretty much nothing and never needing advertisement or money from anyone and then slowly
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seeing them do that and they go oh why are they doing that now it's like they want to make money
yeah yeah so you mentioned the word sell out before like what yeah what is a sell out really
I would say that a seller is someone that's considered taking any kind of financial gain
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even if their values or morals don't align but I think that's an interesting one when people
claim that artists are sellouts like even when the likelihood is their values do align like
if an artist I don't know takes on a sponsorship on their tour and they genuinely like the product
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or the thing that they're sponsoring like you know who am I to sit here and say that they're a sell
out but I'm sure there are situations where famous people or celebrities take a product or a number
of products and claim to say oh I love this but they've never used it before or maybe the product
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itself is unethical and they're supporting something that they shouldn't and therefore they're a sell
out but do I think that Taylor Swift's a sell out because she makes pop music that is relatable to
mass people like she mass produces like no I don't I don't think that makes you a seller I think that
just means that she knows exactly what people want in a certain demographic and that just makes
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her a smart business person but people don't see that because they they just the misogyny of it all
you know like now where's comes back to the misogyny it's always comes back to misogyny but also
like I've you know I grew up around a lot of people who loved making music and I I did a degree
in music and sound design so I was with a lot of people who made music I don't personally make
(12:39):
music but I listen to a lot of it and I respect people who make music and have opinions about
Taylor Swift's music because I get it if it's coming from a place of genuine critique about
her songs themselves but when the moment that people start saying things like
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yeah but I don't understand why she's successful or like how do people like this music anyway like
it's rubbish or her lyrics are crap like once people start making generalizations about her
capabilities that's when I stop like that's when I stop thinking that what they're saying is coming
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from a credible place because it's not like they're coming with like specific reasons as to like
okay but these set of lyrics didn't make sense or this melody was like repetitive like I don't know
it just sometimes I feel like it's I'm just being thrown with like general comments you know and
nothing too specific yeah yeah yeah like unfiltered biased criticism that I'm not it's not necessarily
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related to the quality of her cross cross women's ship yeah and also like why is it bad that
like I was talking to someone once and they were like oh like only 14 year old girls like Taylor
Swift music now even if that was the case which I know for a fact it's not just 14 year old girls
like there are a lot of women in their mid 20s and above who freaking love Taylor Swift and
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I mean what like I can't remember now but like the ticket sales in Australia in the pre-sales like
800,000 people like it's huge and I think more in the general sale and the amac sale but it's like
even if it was true that it was just 14 year old girls why is that a problem
why does a 14 year old girl equal not good and I think there's a real because there's a real
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negative connotation about a women and this idea that if you cater for kids or young people that
means that your content is inherently crap which is just such a snobbish thing to say because like
like why is that bad like a genuinely why is that why can't 14 year old girls have a good time in
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the music that they listen to like why is that why is that demonized it makes no sense to me
because it's just so reductive to say something like that I think in my opinion obviously yeah
yeah yeah obviously this is all about two opinions but yeah I agree it's strange that there are
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sort of rules placed on like this is good this is bad this is worthwhile this is not worthwhile
and the idea of the sellout saying if you are sponsored by this brand it's okay but that brand's
not okay yeah I guess the sellout idea is that the implication is that you are blindly amassing
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money without any sort of strategy or regard for it yeah but then again like what is the dollar point
of a sellout sellout and what point do you become a sellout is it when you make a hundred dollars
is make a thousand dollars like well exactly exactly and look I I'm always conflicted in this
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like this kind of conversation where it gets to like the the ethics around you know millionaires
and billionaires right like do I think it makes sense for individuals to amass great amount great
amounts of money when there is so many people who live below the poverty line like it doesn't really
make any sense like on a human level it feels quite wrong and obscene and that's why I said at the
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beginning like Taylor Swift making obscene amounts of money but to be fair she I heard she's like giving
like hundreds and thousands of dollars to like the workers on the tour like she is like getting some
of that revenue she's putting in her pocket to other people on the tour so tops to her for that
but you know I you know I have no issue with criticizing the fact that people like Taylor
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Swift use private jets as buses like and what's that what is that doing to the environment and like
what like I just think at what point it's very hard because I think with celebrities and people
who great get like big amounts of wealth it is hard not to criticize them because it is obscene
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and at what point is wealth kind of this unethical thing that we're just letting happen where
individuals can just make shitloads of money but like I'm less concerned about Taylor Swift and
probably more concerned about someone like Jeff Bezos you know what I mean like yeah I'm not gonna
like and I feel like that's another thing that happens right like yes we can criticize Taylor
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Swift for maybe like being excessively wealthy but it's like there is also a lot of men who are
excessively wealthy and like again to just blame the next woman who's successful because of that
just feels so like really we're gonna we're just gonna blame the woman again like you know what I
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mean it's yeah yeah but you know I definitely consider like it it definitely crosses my mind
on an ethical level about you know where's the line in terms of like how much wealth you can just
accumulate like you know yeah yeah I mean that's way bigger than that's way bigger than creativity
and create a creative company for sure much bigger conversation and agree yeah needs to be a point
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there but what do you think it is that in the creative space in particular people are expected
to donate their skills for free oh yeah I think because there's an expectation that we love it
unconditionally which is a really kind of manipulative thing to put back on people who are
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creative like oh but you love this so I shouldn't have to pay you because you love it which that
actually works like people and for me for instance like the amount of times where I have convinced
myself yeah I love this so like I can do it for free and while that may be true that doesn't make
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it right like it doesn't mean it's okay for me to then do like a hundred hours for free because I
love it so much like sure I'll probably end up doing it because I love it but that doesn't make it
right and I think people and I think people have this assumption that people only say that when
they're not creative themselves but I actually think the really toxic part about the creative
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industries is there are creative people themselves who put that onto other creative people who say
but you love this like we love this so like we're gonna you know blood sweat and tears
grind through this but it's like realistically people should be getting paid for creative labor
it's it's work you know no matter which way you cut it it's work people are working for a job
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they're following a brief they should be getting paid for it and I think it's very manipulative
when people kind of throw that phrase around and say like oh but you love it and look do I think that
it within reason you're gonna do some free labor for exposure absolutely like that's
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like throughout high school and throughout university I did a bunch of random stuff for free
and I knew that it would it would lead to good things um but you have to set a boundary with
yourself to a certain point where you stop doing that you really have to especially if you want
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it to be your career because you'll just keep getting taken advantage of from people because
they go oh but you've done all this other work for free like why not some more yeah I mean for you
as well because you're obviously a creative person like do you feel like you had to set that boundary
with yourself where you go actually I should be paid for that like I've done enough free labor
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that I should actually get money for that job yeah definitely and love the pet you said a creative
person because um just on that point so many people think that marketing is not a creative
endeavor because it is purely about building a brand building status and getting money for businesses
so I've met the end of that criticism a fair few times actually but certainly I've made a pivot
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in my career which ended up me making Crisp Communications which is my business um and
when I knew that I wasn't happy in my previous career which was a management track and I was
moving further and further away from creative um creativity every day I did seek out opportunities
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to get skills and build my network for free yeah but as soon as I knew that I had that I was confident
I'd learned enough done like now now you pay me for this because my end goal was to make it my
living not just keep my creativity for after hours make my entire life way more creative way more fun
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um so I knew that I needed to get paid for it but I do think it's what it's like one hand you're
building your your resume and you're building your portfolio and sometimes you do have to do
stuff for free but then when people know that and they try and um exploit that it it is a very
slippery slope and it is very difficult because if you don't do it someone else will do it yeah
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and I think you know like it has to be on your terms as well if you're consciously aware of the
fact that you're about to do something for free it that needs to be a really conscious decision
and it needs to be on your terms like for instance with like Seamonstar just the way that you said
then that you took opportunities to like gain those skills when I was doing music reviews like I
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was doing all that as free labor I went to a lot of like indie artists shows that I wasn't
being paid to do and writing reviews and like there was a lot of free labor but it was on my
terms and it was what I wanted to do and to be honest a lot of the artists in the last like
few months of me doing that were like hey like I'll put your name on the door I'll get you a ticket
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you know which was like amazing to see kind of like how me doing reviews for like months upon
months was actually starting to get artists to like trust me and say I'll pay for you to like come
essentially yeah which is a which is a great outcome really but is it because like their
creators themselves they probably have done gigs for free they're trying to return the favor to you
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100% but again I was okay with that because as much as I knew they were trying to you know
get successful and make money so was I but it's like I kind of it didn't feel like a power dynamic
like it didn't feel inappropriate that we were both kind of helping each other like
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I feel like that's a very specific situation whereas like if you're a creative person and
there's someone at a higher level than you making you do free labor that to me feels a bit wrong
and exploitative but if two young creative people are kind of like let's help each other
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that feels less harmful in the long term and that to me is where free labor is a little more
acceptable in my opinion like especially during university a lot of uni students are doing a
lot of free labor for each other and that doesn't feel icky because you're both trying to help each
other you're both unemployed trying to figure your shit out like it's you know it's all but it's
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context but it's when someone who is making bank and is like yeah you just come along and help me
like people who do internships or you know who do work experience that I think they definitely
should be being paid for that but they don't because there's a lot of loopholes and people get
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away with stuff like that um but even what you said I wanted to go backwards what you said before
about how people said that they didn't consider you creative because you work in marketing and people
don't associate marketing with being creative I get into arguments all the time with certain
creative people because I think there is a lot of um there's a lot of like snobbishness around
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what people consider as being creative and I think people have a very boxed in idea of like that
that makes a creative person someone who never sleeps eat they breathe their creative you know
job or whatever and like they want to be this obsessed person of their craft that's a creative
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person which is such an unrealistic idea of what a creative person is like I don't know if you've
ever watched the movie um whiplash by any chance no but tell me about it oh it's about a guy who
essentially is obsessed with being the best jazz drummer of all time and he's so like he's so fixated
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on the fact that he wants to be the best he wants to be seen as the best and essentially throughout
the entire movie without spoiling it you see how obsessed he becomes with the idea that he needs
to be the best at this he loses relationships he has a terrible relationship with his family
he doesn't sleep properly he's not eating properly like he's deeply unhappy but the thing that's
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keeping him alive is the fact that he's like I will die to be the best and some people watch that
movie and think that that's aspirational because in their minds they're doing the same thing they're
going I need to be the best creative in whatever whether it's a musician or a painter or a rider
it doesn't matter it could be anything creative someone in marketing like it literally doesn't
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matter I'm going to be obsessed with this project or thing but be deeply unhappy on a personal level
because being obsessed about anything I think is going to end miserably and obviously you could say
that some of the most successful people in the world end up being successful because they
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are so obsessed with being the best but I just think on a human level is that aspirational or
is that just an example of how you can be really successful that I yeah like and I just think
the fact that people have this very isolated idea of what a creative is feels really demeaning to
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people like you and I mean I've certainly copped it like the fact that I work in a commercial space
a lot of like artists are very much like oh but you work in a commercial space and like you've
basically sold your soul because you're not committed to being this like creative person
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with seamounts productions which I still do I still do my podcast I still get to be creative
every other hour of my life but I gotta I gotta pay bills I gotta you know like it's I don't see
that as selling out or copying out it's just it it's the name of the game it's you know it is what
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it is it is what it is and so let's talk about seamounts productions as well so this is basically
a vessel for you to share your creative projects and you've sort of mentioned the writing and the
interviews they did prior and now it's kind of like this endless scope a little box that you can put
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things into where did that start how did it how did that happen and well like what are your plans
with that so it's so funny actually because my parents are currently moving houses and I had to
go back to Sydney I'm in Melbourne back to Sydney to like see all my childhood stuff to see what I
could throw out keep all that kind of thing oh yeah I actually found the childhood drawing I did
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of sea monster like the logo that I currently have because I drew it when I was a kid I thought
it was a cute little monster thing that I came up with I think I wanted to be a cartoonist at some
so cute yeah so I made this little sea monster and then obviously years later like two three years ago
I was like oh I'm a creative person what am I gonna do I I've always wanted the I always like the
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idea of starting my own business and being my own boss like that has always which obviously
meeting people like you has always been a joy because I love meeting people who start their
own business I think it's just so inspiring and my auntie is a photographer and she did that
and her business is like booming like it's just so awesome watching people start their own businesses
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because I actually think that if you start your own business you're inherently creative because
I think business and creativity are quite entwined so I always wanted to like have my own thing
and sea monster was what I came up with and I always loved the drawing that I did so I was
like great that's my logo um just use a letter c by the way it's not like a c monkey no the letter
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c made into a monster it's super cute yeah it's it's the letter c with big feint teeth as if it's
like this monster alphabetic monster you know and I just when I created it honestly I had no
idea what I was going to do with it and then I slowly just was like well I'm just going to create
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creative projects and sea monster productions is just again like you said like the vessel it's the
it's the hub it's the home page for all of this and I originally the thing that started it all was
the podcast say sounds a reason because I did my degree in like music and sound design so I was like
great I'll start a podcast I love talking I love talking to people I love stories it's great so I
(31:58):
started doing that under sea monster productions and then I started doing the um music in bed
interviews that I did with like lots of artists that I was like friends with throughout high school
in uni and I sat in their beds with them and we talked about making music in their bedroom
and that was a lot of fun um and like I think even just the fact that I got to see what I liked
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and didn't like I I think so often creative people it's like we feel like oh we just need to pick one
thing and get it right but honestly in the last three years I've done lots of little things and
figured out what I hate and what I really like and so far the only thing that's really stuck is
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actually the podcast I think as much as I love doing the artist interviews and the reviews
it's a lot of work and to be totally honest I actually feel like reviewing music is no longer
something that I think is that important because I think if people write a song great like I don't
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need to give an unsolicited opinion about it which look reviews are helpful but I just think I'm like
nah like if people want to make music I don't really care like I my my passion for reviewing
people became very like I just became indifferent about it because I was like I actually am not
that opinionated and most of the times when I wrote reviews it was never really about is this good
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or not I was like how did this song make me feel like it wasn't really coming from a place of like
it's good or bad so I was like why am I even doing this I'm just telling people how I feel when I
listen to a song it's like a very public diary yeah it was a very public diary I think of just
(33:55):
me journaling about how music made me feel which feels very emo and yeah um I love it love the emo
I think it's cool I just I think so much of creativity is exploration and testing and
singing what makes you feel good and that's sort of one of the topics we cover on the podcast is
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people who are who consider themselves not to be creative how do they find creativity in their
life yeah starting point I always say is like just try try stuff try yeah go to a pain and
zip glass go sing in the shower go go for a walk I don't know like just do things and see what makes
(34:36):
you happy because creativity for me is like just happiness and exploration and freedom
exactly and I just think you like you hit the nail on the head like I think even if you're not a
creative person just merely exploring things that you like and don't like in terms of your career
or even hobbies things that you don't do at work it's it's just so important because
(35:00):
you're never going to know if you like something or not until you try it like I I've done plenty of
part-time jobs that I thought I was going to love and then I ended up hating so it's just a matter of
yeah figuring out like what what do you want to do and you know again like having something
(35:22):
having the freedom as a creative to know that you can create as many projects as you want
and quit whenever you want is a very liberating thing you know not commit not forcing yourself to
say well if this doesn't work and if this fails then I give up like it just feels so like it does
feel really dramatic when being an artist often does feel very dramatic but I I know at the end
(35:47):
of the day no matter what project I create tomorrow we were in a week or in a month or any year like
I actually just have to be okay with the fact that I'm allowed to quit that and try something else
if I'm not feeling it anymore like it's it's just a part of being a human yeah yeah yeah try before
you buy and then shop around exactly yeah yeah oh that's cool I think um I feel like we probably
(36:16):
need to wrap it up there but I think that was a fantastic conversation we started with Taylor Swift
we ended up general creativity I appreciate you coming on board and sharing um your viewpoints
because it we did recently have someone on the podcast who was who has presented herself as a
(36:38):
pricing queen and she basically helps people realize their value and charge for the race so I
thought this was like another interesting slightly adjacent viewpoint to this definitely helped render
our season so thanks so much Alice for joining me today it was a pleasure I had a lot of fun
(36:58):
I've never been on somebody else's podcast before it's very exciting oh well that is very exciting
everyone who's here to join in and hear it so I want to say thank you to everyone who has actually
tuned in today to Creativity (37:11):
Uncovered I really hope that this episode has um has inspired you
and that it helps you summon your creativity the next time that you need it yeah I agree
so
(37:52):
if you've made it this far a huge thank you for your support and tuning into today's episode
Creativity (37:58):
Uncovered has been lovingly recorded on the land of the Kabi Kabi people and we pay
our respects to elders past present and emerging this podcast has been produced by my amazing
team here at Crisp Communications and the music you just heard was composed by James Gatling
(38:19):
if you liked this episode please do share it around and help us on our mission to unlock
more creativity in this world you can also hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any new episode
releases
Uncovered. My name is Abi Gatling and I am on a journey
(00:11):
to uncover how everyday people find inspiration, get inventive and open their imagination.
So basically I want to find out how people find creative solutions and then how they
use that at home, work, play and everything in between. And my goal for this podcast is that
(00:32):
by the end of it you'll be armed to the whole suite of tribe and tested ways to some incredible
deeds the next time that you need it. So today I'm speaking with Alice-Rose Lucchetti and Alice is a
podcast operations coordinator. She has her own podcast as well and she's the founder of Seed
(00:55):
Monster Productions and I just I really wanted to reach out to Alice because of an episode on her
podcast The Sounds of Reason. It just really intrigued me and it was talking about making
money as a creative and that sort of double-edged sword of popularity. So I'm really looking forward
to unpacking that one today. So welcome Alice. Hi Abi. Yeah I'm so excited to talk about this
(01:22):
and obviously thank you for reaching out again and finding the podcast and listening to the episode
and yeah I definitely think everything that you just said about finding that safe space with
creativity and how we need to be mindful of the fact that creativity is for everyone and it's
(01:42):
not this thing that needs to be exclusive or elite or anything like that. And I think the
Taylor Swift example is a good one with the double-edged sword thing that kind of happens with her
where she became really successful and is currently really successful and is basically
(02:03):
the biggest artist at the moment on the planet. Yeah and is literally making obscene amount of money
which I just think as an artist like she must be looking at her career being like
how because she's already been so successful in the past and I think every time she breaks through
a new like achievement she must just be looking at her career like how like am I here?
(02:28):
Yeah exactly and I just think the way that she's been treated in the last six months and she's
already had this kind of treatment before as an artist but I think with the Errors tour especially
and how much success has come off the back of this tour people have kind of been saying statements
(02:50):
like oh but like you know why is she successful and you know her music is you know formulaic
and it's generic and who cares and people are really kind of diminishing her abilities as an
artist and I think also as a woman and I think you know there's probably two sides of the arguments
(03:13):
where it's like are people criticizing her because they genuinely don't think she's a good or strong
artist or are they criticizing her because she's a woman and there's a lot of misogyny that you
know goes around especially in the industry. So I much tried into it and you know like so I was at
a folk festival earlier this year and they do the song competition every year where they choose
(03:37):
one artist and they invite all the bands that perform to submit a song and they have to do
like a variation of this artist yeah of their songs and they've had the waves they've had Elton John
they had Dolly Parton as well and I really got to be in my bonnet about this thing because
(03:58):
it had been running for 20 years or so and Dolly Parton was the first woman soloist who had been
chosen to be celebrated in the song competition and so when they were putting the call out for
who is the next artist that's going to be celebrated for next year's festival I was like
Taylor Swift Taylor Swift I was yelling this out I'm not a massive Taylor Swift fan but I was like
(04:24):
she's a woman she's got a huge repertoire to call upon she's a folk artist and the amount of
booze that came back after I yelled that out really absolutely shocking and so when I heard your
episode which if you haven't already picked up on it's called she's not even that good a lyricist
(04:48):
the double-edged sword of popularity of pop music and I was like I have to talk to you about this
because why did that happen what is going on here why is there so much hate going towards that
yeah and I think it's interesting because there's also another thing to that about her folk genre
and her country music background I think even when she was an upcoming artist and did a lot more of
(05:13):
that country sound within the country community but I also think the pop music community people
just didn't want to validate the type of music she was claiming she was making in that genre like
people like oh she's not really that much of a pop musician or whatever and then people in the
country music community were oh she's not really that country it's like the amount of like
(05:39):
weird rules and regulations exactly it's like you know I understand that we have to be somewhat
you know like logical about the like saying what genre of music we're making to like help people
I don't know understand the type of music you're making but at the end of the day I think
people just wanted a reason to nitpick the type of music that she's making or claiming that she
(06:02):
was making and you know the fact that people booed your comment I think says a lot about
you know not everyone feels that way about Taylor Swift but I do think anytime someone becomes very
popular people claim it to be overrated and if people view something to be overrated they claim
(06:24):
it to be not very good or if they even if they think it's good they're just kind of like oh well
everyone else likes that and I don't want to like that I'm like sure people might have legitimate
reasons again why they don't like Taylor Swift's music but I don't think that that's the kind of
commentary we're seeing online or in general I think people are actually like diminishing her
(06:46):
abilities as an artist because they're saying things like oh she's not even that good of a lyricist
like is she even a real musician or she just uses the same Ford chords
as if like they're all bad things you know like it's just yeah yeah so much criticism and I think
(07:07):
so when I reached out to you we sort of got onto the topic of making money as an artist or as a
creative and how that in itself is also a double-edged sword that we all have to pay our bills and
and if you make too much money you're seen as a seller like talk to me about that yeah I think
(07:29):
it's interesting like obviously the people who come up as like indie folk artists or you know
maybe they start from nothing and then gain a bit of success and I feel like that's within every
music community whether it's like you're a DJ or you know you're a classical musician it doesn't
really matter it's like people don't want to feel like you sell out at any point because then they
(07:54):
feel like you're no longer this like pure artist that they started listening to and obviously there
will always be people who are happy for you that you're like gaining success or you are starting
to get you know money where you can finance your creative endeavors but I feel like people associate
things like advertisement and sponsorships and even asking for money for like seeing them live
(08:24):
I think people associate that as like oh like why why do they suddenly need money like don't
they love what they do and or people look at advertisement think that's yucky like why would
they sell themselves out like that but it's like at the end of the day for people who want to work
(08:44):
in the creative industries there has to be some leeway because if people want to make money off
being a creative they at some point they have to either get with advertising or they have to get with
sponsorships or they have to accept the fact that they need money if they play live you they
can't just be playing live for free anymore and I think people in the creative industries really
(09:09):
exploit creative individuals a lot of the time because they go oh like we won't pay you but this
is really good exposure and it's like yeah but I understand if someone does that once like or a
couple times when they're maybe in university or in high school but if you have a degree or you have
(09:30):
a serious portfolio of things that you've achieved as a creative person you shouldn't be doing that
for free after a certain point like you should be being paid for that work and it feels so yucky to
say it to people to be like actually I don't want to do that because I don't think that I see
(09:51):
like any financial compensation for the work that I'm doing it's really hard to be proactively
saying that to people because it feels yucky because you're like oh like this is something
creative I should just love to do it for free anyway but if someone genuinely wants to make money
off the creative endeavors they do they should be 100 allowed to and on the other side of that I'm
(10:16):
sure there are creative people who go being creative is just a hobby I don't want to make money from it
and I just do it for fun like I don't need money from anyone and that's also fine because they've
made that choice but I think people are people are just highly critical when it comes to seeing an
artist go from pretty much nothing and never needing advertisement or money from anyone and then slowly
(10:42):
seeing them do that and they go oh why are they doing that now it's like they want to make money
yeah yeah so you mentioned the word sell out before like what yeah what is a sell out really
I would say that a seller is someone that's considered taking any kind of financial gain
(11:04):
even if their values or morals don't align but I think that's an interesting one when people
claim that artists are sellouts like even when the likelihood is their values do align like
if an artist I don't know takes on a sponsorship on their tour and they genuinely like the product
(11:30):
or the thing that they're sponsoring like you know who am I to sit here and say that they're a sell
out but I'm sure there are situations where famous people or celebrities take a product or a number
of products and claim to say oh I love this but they've never used it before or maybe the product
(11:52):
itself is unethical and they're supporting something that they shouldn't and therefore they're a sell
out but do I think that Taylor Swift's a sell out because she makes pop music that is relatable to
mass people like she mass produces like no I don't I don't think that makes you a seller I think that
just means that she knows exactly what people want in a certain demographic and that just makes
(12:15):
her a smart business person but people don't see that because they they just the misogyny of it all
you know like now where's comes back to the misogyny it's always comes back to misogyny but also
like I've you know I grew up around a lot of people who loved making music and I I did a degree
in music and sound design so I was with a lot of people who made music I don't personally make
(12:39):
music but I listen to a lot of it and I respect people who make music and have opinions about
Taylor Swift's music because I get it if it's coming from a place of genuine critique about
her songs themselves but when the moment that people start saying things like
(13:00):
yeah but I don't understand why she's successful or like how do people like this music anyway like
it's rubbish or her lyrics are crap like once people start making generalizations about her
capabilities that's when I stop like that's when I stop thinking that what they're saying is coming
(13:21):
from a credible place because it's not like they're coming with like specific reasons as to like
okay but these set of lyrics didn't make sense or this melody was like repetitive like I don't know
it just sometimes I feel like it's I'm just being thrown with like general comments you know and
nothing too specific yeah yeah yeah like unfiltered biased criticism that I'm not it's not necessarily
(13:49):
related to the quality of her cross cross women's ship yeah and also like why is it bad that
like I was talking to someone once and they were like oh like only 14 year old girls like Taylor
Swift music now even if that was the case which I know for a fact it's not just 14 year old girls
like there are a lot of women in their mid 20s and above who freaking love Taylor Swift and
(14:16):
I mean what like I can't remember now but like the ticket sales in Australia in the pre-sales like
800,000 people like it's huge and I think more in the general sale and the amac sale but it's like
even if it was true that it was just 14 year old girls why is that a problem
why does a 14 year old girl equal not good and I think there's a real because there's a real
(14:44):
negative connotation about a women and this idea that if you cater for kids or young people that
means that your content is inherently crap which is just such a snobbish thing to say because like
like why is that bad like a genuinely why is that why can't 14 year old girls have a good time in
(15:06):
the music that they listen to like why is that why is that demonized it makes no sense to me
because it's just so reductive to say something like that I think in my opinion obviously yeah
yeah yeah obviously this is all about two opinions but yeah I agree it's strange that there are
(15:27):
sort of rules placed on like this is good this is bad this is worthwhile this is not worthwhile
and the idea of the sellout saying if you are sponsored by this brand it's okay but that brand's
not okay yeah I guess the sellout idea is that the implication is that you are blindly amassing
(15:56):
money without any sort of strategy or regard for it yeah but then again like what is the dollar point
of a sellout sellout and what point do you become a sellout is it when you make a hundred dollars
is make a thousand dollars like well exactly exactly and look I I'm always conflicted in this
(16:17):
like this kind of conversation where it gets to like the the ethics around you know millionaires
and billionaires right like do I think it makes sense for individuals to amass great amount great
amounts of money when there is so many people who live below the poverty line like it doesn't really
make any sense like on a human level it feels quite wrong and obscene and that's why I said at the
(16:43):
beginning like Taylor Swift making obscene amounts of money but to be fair she I heard she's like giving
like hundreds and thousands of dollars to like the workers on the tour like she is like getting some
of that revenue she's putting in her pocket to other people on the tour so tops to her for that
but you know I you know I have no issue with criticizing the fact that people like Taylor
(17:06):
Swift use private jets as buses like and what's that what is that doing to the environment and like
what like I just think at what point it's very hard because I think with celebrities and people
who great get like big amounts of wealth it is hard not to criticize them because it is obscene
(17:27):
and at what point is wealth kind of this unethical thing that we're just letting happen where
individuals can just make shitloads of money but like I'm less concerned about Taylor Swift and
probably more concerned about someone like Jeff Bezos you know what I mean like yeah I'm not gonna
like and I feel like that's another thing that happens right like yes we can criticize Taylor
(17:51):
Swift for maybe like being excessively wealthy but it's like there is also a lot of men who are
excessively wealthy and like again to just blame the next woman who's successful because of that
just feels so like really we're gonna we're just gonna blame the woman again like you know what I
(18:11):
mean it's yeah yeah but you know I definitely consider like it it definitely crosses my mind
on an ethical level about you know where's the line in terms of like how much wealth you can just
accumulate like you know yeah yeah I mean that's way bigger than that's way bigger than creativity
and create a creative company for sure much bigger conversation and agree yeah needs to be a point
(18:38):
there but what do you think it is that in the creative space in particular people are expected
to donate their skills for free oh yeah I think because there's an expectation that we love it
unconditionally which is a really kind of manipulative thing to put back on people who are
(18:59):
creative like oh but you love this so I shouldn't have to pay you because you love it which that
actually works like people and for me for instance like the amount of times where I have convinced
myself yeah I love this so like I can do it for free and while that may be true that doesn't make
(19:22):
it right like it doesn't mean it's okay for me to then do like a hundred hours for free because I
love it so much like sure I'll probably end up doing it because I love it but that doesn't make it
right and I think people and I think people have this assumption that people only say that when
they're not creative themselves but I actually think the really toxic part about the creative
(19:45):
industries is there are creative people themselves who put that onto other creative people who say
but you love this like we love this so like we're gonna you know blood sweat and tears
grind through this but it's like realistically people should be getting paid for creative labor
it's it's work you know no matter which way you cut it it's work people are working for a job
(20:11):
they're following a brief they should be getting paid for it and I think it's very manipulative
when people kind of throw that phrase around and say like oh but you love it and look do I think that
it within reason you're gonna do some free labor for exposure absolutely like that's
(20:32):
like throughout high school and throughout university I did a bunch of random stuff for free
and I knew that it would it would lead to good things um but you have to set a boundary with
yourself to a certain point where you stop doing that you really have to especially if you want
(20:53):
it to be your career because you'll just keep getting taken advantage of from people because
they go oh but you've done all this other work for free like why not some more yeah I mean for you
as well because you're obviously a creative person like do you feel like you had to set that boundary
with yourself where you go actually I should be paid for that like I've done enough free labor
(21:16):
that I should actually get money for that job yeah definitely and love the pet you said a creative
person because um just on that point so many people think that marketing is not a creative
endeavor because it is purely about building a brand building status and getting money for businesses
so I've met the end of that criticism a fair few times actually but certainly I've made a pivot
(21:43):
in my career which ended up me making Crisp Communications which is my business um and
when I knew that I wasn't happy in my previous career which was a management track and I was
moving further and further away from creative um creativity every day I did seek out opportunities
(22:05):
to get skills and build my network for free yeah but as soon as I knew that I had that I was confident
I'd learned enough done like now now you pay me for this because my end goal was to make it my
living not just keep my creativity for after hours make my entire life way more creative way more fun
(22:32):
um so I knew that I needed to get paid for it but I do think it's what it's like one hand you're
building your your resume and you're building your portfolio and sometimes you do have to do
stuff for free but then when people know that and they try and um exploit that it it is a very
slippery slope and it is very difficult because if you don't do it someone else will do it yeah
(22:55):
and I think you know like it has to be on your terms as well if you're consciously aware of the
fact that you're about to do something for free it that needs to be a really conscious decision
and it needs to be on your terms like for instance with like Seamonstar just the way that you said
then that you took opportunities to like gain those skills when I was doing music reviews like I
(23:20):
was doing all that as free labor I went to a lot of like indie artists shows that I wasn't
being paid to do and writing reviews and like there was a lot of free labor but it was on my
terms and it was what I wanted to do and to be honest a lot of the artists in the last like
few months of me doing that were like hey like I'll put your name on the door I'll get you a ticket
(23:44):
you know which was like amazing to see kind of like how me doing reviews for like months upon
months was actually starting to get artists to like trust me and say I'll pay for you to like come
essentially yeah which is a which is a great outcome really but is it because like their
creators themselves they probably have done gigs for free they're trying to return the favor to you
(24:12):
100% but again I was okay with that because as much as I knew they were trying to you know
get successful and make money so was I but it's like I kind of it didn't feel like a power dynamic
like it didn't feel inappropriate that we were both kind of helping each other like
(24:34):
I feel like that's a very specific situation whereas like if you're a creative person and
there's someone at a higher level than you making you do free labor that to me feels a bit wrong
and exploitative but if two young creative people are kind of like let's help each other
(24:54):
that feels less harmful in the long term and that to me is where free labor is a little more
acceptable in my opinion like especially during university a lot of uni students are doing a
lot of free labor for each other and that doesn't feel icky because you're both trying to help each
other you're both unemployed trying to figure your shit out like it's you know it's all but it's
(25:18):
context but it's when someone who is making bank and is like yeah you just come along and help me
like people who do internships or you know who do work experience that I think they definitely
should be being paid for that but they don't because there's a lot of loopholes and people get
(25:42):
away with stuff like that um but even what you said I wanted to go backwards what you said before
about how people said that they didn't consider you creative because you work in marketing and people
don't associate marketing with being creative I get into arguments all the time with certain
creative people because I think there is a lot of um there's a lot of like snobbishness around
(26:10):
what people consider as being creative and I think people have a very boxed in idea of like that
that makes a creative person someone who never sleeps eat they breathe their creative you know
job or whatever and like they want to be this obsessed person of their craft that's a creative
(26:33):
person which is such an unrealistic idea of what a creative person is like I don't know if you've
ever watched the movie um whiplash by any chance no but tell me about it oh it's about a guy who
essentially is obsessed with being the best jazz drummer of all time and he's so like he's so fixated
(26:56):
on the fact that he wants to be the best he wants to be seen as the best and essentially throughout
the entire movie without spoiling it you see how obsessed he becomes with the idea that he needs
to be the best at this he loses relationships he has a terrible relationship with his family
he doesn't sleep properly he's not eating properly like he's deeply unhappy but the thing that's
(27:19):
keeping him alive is the fact that he's like I will die to be the best and some people watch that
movie and think that that's aspirational because in their minds they're doing the same thing they're
going I need to be the best creative in whatever whether it's a musician or a painter or a rider
it doesn't matter it could be anything creative someone in marketing like it literally doesn't
(27:43):
matter I'm going to be obsessed with this project or thing but be deeply unhappy on a personal level
because being obsessed about anything I think is going to end miserably and obviously you could say
that some of the most successful people in the world end up being successful because they
(28:04):
are so obsessed with being the best but I just think on a human level is that aspirational or
is that just an example of how you can be really successful that I yeah like and I just think
the fact that people have this very isolated idea of what a creative is feels really demeaning to
(28:24):
people like you and I mean I've certainly copped it like the fact that I work in a commercial space
a lot of like artists are very much like oh but you work in a commercial space and like you've
basically sold your soul because you're not committed to being this like creative person
(28:46):
with seamounts productions which I still do I still do my podcast I still get to be creative
every other hour of my life but I gotta I gotta pay bills I gotta you know like it's I don't see
that as selling out or copying out it's just it it's the name of the game it's you know it is what
(29:06):
it is it is what it is and so let's talk about seamounts productions as well so this is basically
a vessel for you to share your creative projects and you've sort of mentioned the writing and the
interviews they did prior and now it's kind of like this endless scope a little box that you can put
(29:32):
things into where did that start how did it how did that happen and well like what are your plans
with that so it's so funny actually because my parents are currently moving houses and I had to
go back to Sydney I'm in Melbourne back to Sydney to like see all my childhood stuff to see what I
could throw out keep all that kind of thing oh yeah I actually found the childhood drawing I did
(29:59):
of sea monster like the logo that I currently have because I drew it when I was a kid I thought
it was a cute little monster thing that I came up with I think I wanted to be a cartoonist at some
so cute yeah so I made this little sea monster and then obviously years later like two three years ago
I was like oh I'm a creative person what am I gonna do I I've always wanted the I always like the
(30:26):
idea of starting my own business and being my own boss like that has always which obviously
meeting people like you has always been a joy because I love meeting people who start their
own business I think it's just so inspiring and my auntie is a photographer and she did that
and her business is like booming like it's just so awesome watching people start their own businesses
(30:46):
because I actually think that if you start your own business you're inherently creative because
I think business and creativity are quite entwined so I always wanted to like have my own thing
and sea monster was what I came up with and I always loved the drawing that I did so I was
like great that's my logo um just use a letter c by the way it's not like a c monkey no the letter
(31:12):
c made into a monster it's super cute yeah it's it's the letter c with big feint teeth as if it's
like this monster alphabetic monster you know and I just when I created it honestly I had no
idea what I was going to do with it and then I slowly just was like well I'm just going to create
(31:32):
creative projects and sea monster productions is just again like you said like the vessel it's the
it's the hub it's the home page for all of this and I originally the thing that started it all was
the podcast say sounds a reason because I did my degree in like music and sound design so I was like
great I'll start a podcast I love talking I love talking to people I love stories it's great so I
(31:58):
started doing that under sea monster productions and then I started doing the um music in bed
interviews that I did with like lots of artists that I was like friends with throughout high school
in uni and I sat in their beds with them and we talked about making music in their bedroom
and that was a lot of fun um and like I think even just the fact that I got to see what I liked
(32:24):
and didn't like I I think so often creative people it's like we feel like oh we just need to pick one
thing and get it right but honestly in the last three years I've done lots of little things and
figured out what I hate and what I really like and so far the only thing that's really stuck is
(32:44):
actually the podcast I think as much as I love doing the artist interviews and the reviews
it's a lot of work and to be totally honest I actually feel like reviewing music is no longer
something that I think is that important because I think if people write a song great like I don't
(33:06):
need to give an unsolicited opinion about it which look reviews are helpful but I just think I'm like
nah like if people want to make music I don't really care like I my my passion for reviewing
people became very like I just became indifferent about it because I was like I actually am not
that opinionated and most of the times when I wrote reviews it was never really about is this good
(33:32):
or not I was like how did this song make me feel like it wasn't really coming from a place of like
it's good or bad so I was like why am I even doing this I'm just telling people how I feel when I
listen to a song it's like a very public diary yeah it was a very public diary I think of just
(33:55):
me journaling about how music made me feel which feels very emo and yeah um I love it love the emo
I think it's cool I just I think so much of creativity is exploration and testing and
singing what makes you feel good and that's sort of one of the topics we cover on the podcast is
(34:15):
people who are who consider themselves not to be creative how do they find creativity in their
life yeah starting point I always say is like just try try stuff try yeah go to a pain and
zip glass go sing in the shower go go for a walk I don't know like just do things and see what makes
(34:36):
you happy because creativity for me is like just happiness and exploration and freedom
exactly and I just think you like you hit the nail on the head like I think even if you're not a
creative person just merely exploring things that you like and don't like in terms of your career
or even hobbies things that you don't do at work it's it's just so important because
(35:00):
you're never going to know if you like something or not until you try it like I I've done plenty of
part-time jobs that I thought I was going to love and then I ended up hating so it's just a matter of
yeah figuring out like what what do you want to do and you know again like having something
(35:22):
having the freedom as a creative to know that you can create as many projects as you want
and quit whenever you want is a very liberating thing you know not commit not forcing yourself to
say well if this doesn't work and if this fails then I give up like it just feels so like it does
feel really dramatic when being an artist often does feel very dramatic but I I know at the end
(35:47):
of the day no matter what project I create tomorrow we were in a week or in a month or any year like
I actually just have to be okay with the fact that I'm allowed to quit that and try something else
if I'm not feeling it anymore like it's it's just a part of being a human yeah yeah yeah try before
you buy and then shop around exactly yeah yeah oh that's cool I think um I feel like we probably
(36:16):
need to wrap it up there but I think that was a fantastic conversation we started with Taylor Swift
we ended up general creativity I appreciate you coming on board and sharing um your viewpoints
because it we did recently have someone on the podcast who was who has presented herself as a
(36:38):
pricing queen and she basically helps people realize their value and charge for the race so I
thought this was like another interesting slightly adjacent viewpoint to this definitely helped render
our season so thanks so much Alice for joining me today it was a pleasure I had a lot of fun
(36:58):
I've never been on somebody else's podcast before it's very exciting oh well that is very exciting
everyone who's here to join in and hear it so I want to say thank you to everyone who has actually
tuned in today to Creativity (37:11):
Uncovered I really hope that this episode has um has inspired you
and that it helps you summon your creativity the next time that you need it yeah I agree
so
(37:52):
if you've made it this far a huge thank you for your support and tuning into today's episode
Creativity (37:58):
Uncovered has been lovingly recorded on the land of the Kabi Kabi people and we pay
our respects to elders past present and emerging this podcast has been produced by my amazing
team here at Crisp Communications and the music you just heard was composed by James Gatling
(38:19):
if you liked this episode please do share it around and help us on our mission to unlock
more creativity in this world you can also hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any new episode
releases
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