013. CALLIGRAPHY EN VOGUE [VIDEO]

Episode Transcript
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(00:12):
George. Welcome to the crew table.
Thank you. We are both so nervous.
We're like shooting bricks here.It's weird for us to be having
like a formal yeah conversation.Usually our conversation should
not be recorded I. Would say 100% would agree with
that. So, context for everyone.
I've known Joe for almost a decade.

(00:35):
Yeah, almost a decade. 1 of likethe first friendships found when
I started. Working me too.
So I was telling Joe before recording that we need to give a
lot of background because the listeners will just be so
confused of like, where are theygoing with this?
Because we would forget that. They wouldn't know too much
about it. But there's a lot to know about

(00:55):
Joe. If you don't know her already, I
guess she's very well known for calligraphy.
That's the umbrella Riddle. She's a phenomenal, phenomenal,
phenomenal, phenomenal. Wow.
Yeah, no, this. It's gonna be terrible.
We got there. We got.
There artist and just the her craft is so unique I feel like
you can just look at her work and just know what it is but

(01:16):
I'll give like a little trigger warning yeah run at the start of
this episode that on this episode in my go into deep
conversations about children andillnesses yeah I'm not too sure
where it's gonna get stayed yeahit gets stayed I.
Don't think we've decided. We're just going to see how it
goes, but I thought I would justput it out there, Yeah, for
those listening, because it can get quite heavy.

(01:38):
Yeah, hopefully. Not.
Hopefully not too heavy. Everyone knows this is episode
13. Everyone knows by now if they've
never even known who I was. I'm a crier so hopefully it
doesn't get too heavy. Because I'm a little bit scared
because I feel like my guard's probably down with you compared
to like, if I'd spoke to anyone else.
And it's usually in the case of like, I'm crying, even if it's

(02:00):
Joe's problem and she's consoling me.
So it's going to look so stupid publicly.
My God, we do do that. Yeah, and she's like, it's OK,
George, and it's her problem that I'm crying.
Over I also do that to a lot of people, to be fair, because I
feel like I'm used to I've yeah,I've built a I've had to build
a, a big a big bomb shelter. It's probably the best way to

(02:23):
describe it. That's probably a bad
description given the current status of the world, but yeah,
it is what it is. I'll give like context for those
who have never met Jo, never seen her, never gone through her
page or anything like that. But she was previously a
podiatrist. Yes, and the the most random
switch. We're really going back, yeah.
We're going really back, yeah. The most random switch to become
a calligraphy artist. Is that me?

(02:45):
Yes. Yeah.
Yeah. Do you really?
You really In her almost 10 years she's worked with crazy
brands. Yep, I'm going to write on this
list Dior Cartier, Bottega Givenchy slash Givenchy.
Yes, she's done events for Vogue.
Yes. Ritz, Paris.

(03:06):
Yep. Chanel.
Yes, they were my dream clients.Anyone else I'm missing?
I mean, look, I think I've LouisVuitton.
Louis Vuitton. I think I've done them.
All so like that. Yeah, like.
Like any luxury brand you can think of bar maybe like a mess
was a dream dream dream client. We had a that was amazing
amazing team for a long time there and they were an amazing

(03:31):
company to work for. Surprisingly, most people have a
Really. I would imagine all of them
would be amazing to work. For not all of them, actually.
There you go. What's opposite of a trigger?
Winning. We will be talking about the
brands. Amazing to work.
With look, I think there is a shame that comes off when you
see the inner workings of luxurybrands.

(03:51):
And it's not to say that I thinkwe have a perception that they
sell to us really, really well. And I think the inner workings
are like every business, there'sgood, there's bad, there's some
great people in that company, there's some not so great
people. They some companies will do
absolutely amazing things for artists and some companies will
really do their absolute darndest to exploit industry.

(04:14):
And I think that's the nature ofbig business.
You know, we're talking about big global domination
businesses. And I learnt along the way that
they were not going to be necessarily looking out for my
best interests because that's not high on their.
Yeah. Definitely want to talk like

(04:34):
that, didn't really think of it.Like somehow we've had
conversations privately and there's some conversations we
can't talk about for legal reasons.
In case anyone's wondering why I'm like dodging a topic or
joeys, but I mean. I will give my best to give the
story without giving names, details, places, you know,
because there's a lot. Of like NT, As and stuff
involved. I mean, there's a lot of brands
there as well. So I mean, take your pick.
It could be any of them. That's the reality.

(04:54):
It's not as if I worked with oneand it would be obvious so.
I guess as a podcaster or someone who like kind of like
hosts this, I always watch back and I think do people like think
that it's vain that I'm talking about certain brands or like
vain when I talk about high clients?
So I just want to like put my little spin on things for those
listening. Yeah, I actually when I'm
listing what a business has worked for, it's not like it's a

(05:17):
goal or it's like AI don't know.Oh, like, yeah, it's so amazing
for these rich companies and it's all about money.
It's more just about like it's impressive to like crack that
market as a business owner. I don't know if you'd agree with
what I'm saying now, I think. My journey is, you know, first
of all, I think it's a very, very, very big defining part of
my career because at one point that's all I was doing.

(05:38):
So to not talk about it would just be weird, you know, because
it was all I was doing for the first three years, four years of
my career. I think the second thing is like
the whole evolution of the business is so ingrained in my
experience with those brands andwhy I decided to pivot and do
something different. So I think, you know, yes, it's

(06:00):
impressive and it's nice. And at one point it was my dream
career and, you know, I made it the defining point of my career.
And I also realised that that was a big mistake, you know, So
I think I've grown from that. So it's really interesting that
you say that people, you know, might think that that's bragging
or we shouldn't make it about the brands.

(06:21):
I actually agree. But I think to not talk about it
would be doing that journey a massive disservice.
Disservice is about to say that as well, but On the contrary,
Joe is a incredible calligraphy artist for couples and people's
personal lives. And I think your brains, like
working with brains is impressive.
Obviously your work has to be good for them to kind of like

(06:43):
open that up because they've gotaccess to everything.
Their marketing budgets are freaking huge because of the
profits they make, but that's not always the case in people's
personal lives. So I call it real people and
real stories. And you're very, very, very,
very good at tying in love through tangible items.
Right. And I'm not saying just writing.

(07:04):
I'm talking about items because you have like, incredible pieces
that we're now going to kind of touch on.
Yeah, I've personal kind of connections to your work.
And I feel like that's what kindof tied us together.
Yeah. Because when I was getting
engaged, I was like, I'm not handwriting.
I'm going to get Joe to write a letter.
Or if I was like, it was Alexi'sbirthday, I'd get you to make a
peace for me. We have your love hearts
everywhere around our house. And our Christmas tree is full

(07:25):
of your snowflakes. Like, there's so much things
that we can talk about when it comes to that kind of stuff, but
you do it really well. And in the journey of
calligraphy and being a stationary artist, there's a
shift I feel like that's happened in the last few years
that I feel like we should tackle.
And tying it back into my listeners, brides, both past,
present and future can kind of like get some insight of what my

(07:46):
thought or your thought is over kind of shifting from like
tangible paper invitations to like eat invites and stuff like
that. But before we do that, why would
you have switched from studying to becoming to the field of
medicine Podiatry to them like calligraphy artists?

(08:06):
I mean, I often tell people thatcalligraphy kind of found me.
It wasn't something that I So for context, I had a medical
practise for 10 years. I obviously had a degree in
Podiatry and I ran a Podiatry clinic in the eastern suburbs of
Sydney, which was my whole life.I loved it.

(08:26):
Like, I know a lot of people switch careers because they hate
their job. Whereas for me, I loved that
job. I loved helping people.
I was, I'm a you know, there is still a part of me that's still
a very analytical person. You're who was a foot doctor, so
you would hope that you love people.
This is the most glamorous job. It's not.
But I mean, nothing in medicine is glamorous.

(08:47):
You know, there's nothing glamorous about medicine like it
is, you know, people are in pain.
Our job is to help people and I really enjoyed that and I was
really good at it. So you nobody is more surprised
than me that I ended up leaving.And it was, and it was really
when I had children. I think children are definitely

(09:09):
a milestone that changes a lot of things for people.
And essentially it was a combination of things.
I was working really far away from where I was now living.
You know, I was married and we were living in the burbs and we
had a child and I was still running a practise.
And then I found out about when my daughter was just a little

(09:29):
bit over a year old that I was going to have a set of twins.
So that was like, you know, big spanner in the works at the
time. I was like, Oh my God, I, I was
already starting to feel like, how do I juggle this?
I'm not. Was it like a shock shock Like
was twins in the family or anything?
No twins in the family, they're identical, so they're just like
you and your luck. No IVF, so it's.

(09:52):
Just like a big shock. Yeah, because, I mean, the odds
of having identical twins I think are a little bit higher
with IVF. But no, it was just a big, big
blessing. The biggest, one of the biggest
blessings I've ever had in my whole entire life.
So it was a shock. And I was already starting to
feel like, how am I going to manage a husband that's got an
extremely demanding constructioncompany?

(10:15):
I'm running a medical practise, I'm working far away from home.
Like, you know, we kind of managed it with one child.
But I did feel like I didn't getto be the mum to a newborn that
I wanted to be. And so when I learnt that I was
having twins, I was like, OK, something needs to change.
Different kind of the. Fish yeah.
So I ended up selling my practise and I was very lucky to

(10:39):
be able to give it to somebody that worked for me.
So I knew that my patients were taken care of because that was a
big at the time, that was a big stress.
Like my children were my patients.
So and then I had really bad handwriting.
This is how I had something I had a really bad handwriting
from I used. I went from beautiful
handwriting in high school and being that girl, you know.

(11:00):
Medical field does that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And literally had eligible handwriting.
So I was like, I need to fix my handwriting.
Obviously, I was pregnant. I wasn't doing anything.
I wasn't working. So I was like I need to work out
how I'm going to fix my handwriting randomly when I did
a calligraphy course. No, I didn't know this.
Yes. And one thing I do know though
is that pen you use to etch ontolike stuff is.

(11:23):
A tool. So we'll get to that though,
because that's different to a calligraphy pen.
That was like an evolution. What?
Do you mean you get to that? Well, tell me about it.
It's OK. So what you're just talking
again, this is like where we talk about stuff, give me the
back story. We don't know what you're
talking about. So I started out my career as a
calligraphy. I was doing a lot of stuff for
brand defence PR and these companies and then the trend of

(11:44):
like doing brand activations really exploded during that
time. So they wanted a lot of on site
stuff. So I was doing a lot of cards on
site and a calligrapher will traditionally use an.
I use and a calligrapher should be using a nib and ink.
Yeah, it's that pen you. Do yeah.
So it's like a weird oblique penand it's got nibs that you put

(12:05):
on and you change them dependingon the look and the style that
you want. So I was doing a lot of that.
So I am a traditional calligrapher and I want to kind
of stress that because in 2025, like now today, a lot of people
call themselves calligraphers, but they're not.
What they're doing is they're tracing letters and things on
iPads and they're giving you a digital version of that, but

(12:25):
they're not necessarily doing traditional calligraphy.
So it's taken away a little bit from that authenticity.
But yes, no, I am a traditional calligrapher and when I started
doing these on site events, we started, I would speak to brand
managers and people in the company and that would be like,
we really want to apply this onto products.

(12:45):
We want to work it out. So to cut a very Long story
short, I really wanted to work out how I could get my
calligraphy to be on products like glass and things like that.
It had never done been done. Perfumes.
Bottles. Yeah, which will surprise a lot
of people because a lot of calligraphers now do that.
But at the time when I wanted todo it, there was nothing out

(13:08):
there. And I'm talking from the States
to Australia to pretty much everywhere in the world like
calligraphers strictly did pointed pen calligraphy.
And so I spent a bit of time researching how am I going to do
this? Like I, this client was like, I
need this client to keep hiring me.
Like I want this job. I don't want them to go to a

(13:28):
traditional engraver. You know, the ones that do like
the little, like the stuff that you get from Mr Minute and
stuff. Yeah, I was going to say.
They wanted my writing etched and I was like, how do you do
this? So literally spent weeks like
Youtubing, looking on Instagram,looking at lots of other
calligraphers. Like has any other calligrapher
done this? And this was back in 2016.
So I can confidently say I literally came across nothing.

(13:50):
Like maybe there might be one random person out there that did
it before me but. You never saw it to.
Me, I didn't say anything. I definitely had no idea how to
do it. And I started Youtubing videos
and like 3 or 4 weeks went past and I was like, Oh my God, how
am I going to do this? And then I randomly saw a video
on YouTube that popped up that was like this guy that would
draw animals on glass and he wasusing this drill bit that we

(14:15):
use. It's like a medical drill bit
with like a ball on the end of it.
And I was like, Oh my God, that's a Podiatry drill bit.
So I literally run down to my like office, I get out like an
old piece of Podiatry equipment.I had the drills there because I
would randomly like do my fate or like friend's fate or
whatever, went upstairs, got a glass from my cupboard and I was

(14:38):
like, Oh my God, please go and let this work.
Like I need this client to hire me for this job.
And it just worked. And from there, I just kind of
refined it and, and for the first six months, I was carrying
medical equipment around to do this.
So do you reckon like that innovation in It's a crazy
story. Do you reckon the innovation
point is why so many other brands hired you?

(14:59):
Because you're offering something different?
A. 100% so. That value was there.
Yeah, and it just exploded on Instagram as well.
Like I would film videos of doing it and people like, Oh my
God, what are you doing? How are you doing this?
What are you using? Like, this is not how you
traditionally engrave and it's not like traditional engravers
use completely different tools. It's a completely different
skill. And it was kind of like I've

(15:21):
kind of just like morphed skills.
And, you know, it inquires an incredible amount of hand
strength as well because the thepiece is heavy.
And so it took a lot of iterations and working out what
works, what doesn't work. And then one of the traditional
engravers took pity on me when he saw me at an event once and I

(15:41):
had this, like, massive medical machine.
And he was like, you know, that you could just buy an engraving
machine and like, use the different drill bits in that.
And you could like, like, you could buy these things to like,
modify it. And I was like, Oh my God, thank
you. Thank you to whoever that was.
They didn't gatekeep. They didn't gatekeep.
Telling you right from the start.
Yeah. And, and so then I obviously

(16:02):
started using like a normal engraving machine that was a lot
smaller and, you know, didn't have like medical grade
equipment. Because you're a child of
parents who are immigrants from Italy, correct?
And obviously, like so many people would relate to this.
When you have immigrant parents who come from overseas, whether
it's, you know, Italy or the Middle East or Asia, and they

(16:23):
come to like countries such as Australia, they want to see
their child receive the best attard, go to get the best
degree. You know, like if your child
goes into the field of medicine or law or engineering, they're
like, my child made it. They're going to be successful.
I don't need to stress. Was there any conflict?
And I've never asked you this question personally when you
were like mum and dad. I'm actually not going to be be

(16:46):
a podiatrist anymore in a minute.
Become a calligrapher. Well, to be fair, I was 30 years
old and I had children, so and like I kind of fulfilled.
And I will say, I will say this to that, actually, both my
parents have PhDs in science. They're incredibly intelligent,
very educated. They're both doctors and they

(17:11):
always encouraged me to study and to to do to go to
university. I mean, also because they knew
that I obviously I did well at school.
I was naturally quite good at school.
I enjoyed you're a nerd. I was a nerd.
I was, I was. So it was natural that they
would kind of encourage that. And you know, at one point I

(17:34):
said to my dad, I want to do fashion design.
My dad was like, just go to uni and get a degree and get a good
job. You know, that was like, because
that was the formula that had worked for them.
Like they'd immigrated from Italy, where job opportunities
work great for educated people, to somewhere like Australia
where they were able to get jobs.
And you know, my parents, we lived a very lower middle class,

(17:56):
comfortable life. I never had an extravagant life
growing up, but I also never needed anything.
And so my parents were like, just do something that's stable
and you'll be happy. And so I kind of fulfilled that
for them. And, you know, I, I went beyond
that. Like I had a obviously had an
entrepreneur a strike in me. I had a practise and they were
incredibly proud of me. Obviously, one thing I will say

(18:19):
about my parents though, is my parents are, I would say
probably hippie Italians, like Igrew up in the 70s.
So they were very much just like, do what makes you happy.
Success is about being happy. And so when I was like, oh, you
know, it's often medical practise, I'm just going to give
this calligraphy thing a go. They were like you do you.

(18:40):
That's awesome. You're smart, you know what
you're doing. You've achieved a lot.
Like that's awesome. You're probably going to work it
out. I think in the back of their
mind they were probably like. This one lasts.
Yeah, yeah, she'll go back to work eventually, yeah.
Or, you know, maybe she'll just be content, like doing a random
job here and there. And, you know, I was married, my
husband was doing well financially, so nobody was

(19:04):
relying. It was like the.
The question just came to my head.
Now, your husband had a good job, right?
You were pregnant with twins. Yeah.
You did great in your career. Yeah.
So you had that enjoyment for 10years.
Yeah. Why didn't you just choose to
become, like, a housewife with twins?
I mean, I've got twins. You went from 1:00 to 3:00.
Do you know what I mean? Like why?

(19:24):
Like do you remember the memory?Or you're like, Nah, I'm just
not going to sit home. I just like working, OK, you
know, I liked working and I at the time and I still to this day
think this like, what a dream tobe able to do something that I
love doing that I can choose my hours.
I mean, this was this is what I told myself at the time anyway.

(19:45):
I kind of didn't work out that way, but so I was like, I'd be
crazy not to pursue this. I will acknowledge though, that
I think my journey comes with anincredible amount of privilege
though, you know, like the privilege of being someone that
was raised in a healthy, loving,encouraging environment where my

(20:10):
parents, you know, I didn't haveany issues in my childhood.
I had lovely parents. I have one brother.
He's in the Air Force. So now he's the golden child,
you know? It's always me and.
They lost a doctor, so that's. It that's it, it's there.
It's the Air Force guy. Now I'm just joking.
My parents don't think that at all.

(20:32):
So, you know, I, I had a wonderful upbringing.
My parents were incredibly supportive of anything I wanted
to do. I met Charlie when I was 19
years old and we dated for many,many years.
And he's a wonderful person, great guy, great influence on a
lot of my decisions. He's really the entrepreneurial
one that encouraged me to be like, don't work for somebody

(20:53):
else, get your own practise, youknow.
And so, I mean, people forget that like I'd sold a practise,
like financially, I'd already done well.
And so I had the privilege of being able to say, oh, well, if
this doesn't work out, it's fine.
You know, I've, I've got a husband to fall back on.
I've got investments in a previous successful career to

(21:15):
fall back on and so many people don't.
It's very nice though. It's very nice though, Yeah,
very nice to be in that position, which is, which is
awesome. I think it's good to acknowledge
both. There was a lot of hard work
that. Went in there because it's real
I. Also think that a lot of people
don't have the privileges that Ihave to be able to just go all
in on something or be able to invest in something that they
don't know is going to work, andI think it's really important to

(21:37):
acknowledge that. I think it's hard to kind of say
you're triumphs. And so yeah, it was easy like I
had, I had it available it. Wasn't easy, but it was
definitely, I definitely had things that were available.
Yeah, it's not the right available.
Available is the right word. And I like to remind people of
that because sometimes people say to me, I don't know why I
can't work or I just can't do that.
And I say I understand everybody's journey is

(21:58):
different. And yeah, I think it's just
important to be grateful for thethings that I did for myself,
but also acknowledge the fact that, and I think a lot of
people, when they get really farinto their journey, don't
acknowledge those very basic things that got them to where
they are. So I wanna touch a bit about
your positioning in the calligraphy world.
Yes, because calligraphy in my mind is a niche.

(22:19):
It is right, huge niche. It's a huge niche that's.
All when you say I'm well known,I'm well known to who?
Like the 10 other people that docalligraphy.
No, but like your. There's more than 10, there's
more. Not not to.
I don't want to belittle the industry.
It's an incredibly difficult artand it is incredibly difficult
to get work. So what I want to kind of ask is
that in that niche, when you're working with big brands, were

(22:42):
there any challenges like amongst your, I guess you could
say, peers or colleagues or competitors with that niche?
Were there any challenges you had to overcome when you were
like, let's say 4-5 brands in doing these activations, doing
work for them? Yeah.
I mean, I've got 2020 hindsight now.
So I also have a level of separation from the things that

(23:03):
I used to care about intensely at the time.
I think the hardest thing for mewas, and I realise now being
nine years into the business, I'm older, I'm more mature.
I realise now that this is kind of the way it goes with social
media where you would do something, you would innovate
something, and the number one thing that your competitors are
going to do once they see that you're successful at something

(23:25):
is they're going to do the exactly the same thing.
And if anyone does follow Joe, they would know that this has
happened quite a bit, which is why I've kind of given you down
this road 'cause I wanna touch on it just a little bit.
Yeah, you've had back story again, I have to remind myself
to give people this context. Joe's come out with products
where it's like a custom designed snowflake for a

(23:46):
Christmas tree, right. And this when I was saying it's
custom, like as her friend, I can vouch for like we both have
the receipts. You have the receipts more than
I do 100% custom, custom, customto the point where it's like
drawn, sketched manufacturers flying back products back and
forth. Wrong.
Keep doing it, keep doing it, keep doing it.
This is not sufficient enough. Then you added your calligraphy
onto it. Same with the hearts and I can

(24:09):
Google and probably get like something very similar, not the
same from a lot of. Competitors need to come back to
this because we've kind of gone from like step one to step 50,
OK, But to give everyone context, so and I think this is
where the brand side of things is important.
So essentially the journey that I took was I was working
exclusively for brands at the time.
I was doing a lot of designs, I was doing a lot of in store

(24:33):
events and it was it was crazy. It was amazing times like every
single brand at one point was blowing up my inbox asking for
calligraphy because I'd done a good job of kind of marrying the
audience with the with the brand.
So for example, like perfume engraving blew up.
So if I did an event for say Dior, which I did a lot of

(24:54):
events for Dior, I would have a line at the door of people
waiting to get to buy a perfume just to get the engraving.
And so it was kind of like this amazing thing where I was booked
out, you know, I'm just looking like 6 figure months.
It was insane. And that taught me a lot because
I realised how much people valued something like.

(25:17):
Personalised. Yes, and I realised like I can
take something that's as genericas a perfume because there's
millions of perfumes and they'renot necessarily yes and make it
something that's gone from beingOK.
This is a perfume that I like tothis is my wedding perfume.
It's now sentimental and now hasall this meaning.

(25:37):
It now is something that I will keep and my like.
To cut a very Long story short, my experience with luxury brands
made me realise they don't care about people because they're not
supposed to care about people. They care about the bottom line,
how many sales they can make. And so it started to evolve into
something where it was just thisproduction line, you know, And
it was like more, more, more andpromote more and sell more.

(26:00):
And it started to feel really disingenuous to me personally,
OK. And I started to realise, like
how important individual people were and their sentimental
moments were and I didn't necessarily want.
And that's where the products came out.
And the wedding stuff as well, yeah.
I didn't necessarily want my arts and my crafts and me as a

(26:24):
person in my legacy to be tied into selling something to you as
a brand, like as a mass producedproduct or something that I
mean, as much as I love personalised perfume bottles, it
just didn't feel like it was something that you would keep
for 50 years even if it was personalised, right?
Maybe some of my brides do, and I hope they do, but there was

(26:47):
something in me that was like, Ithink I can do better.
I think I can be more special and yes, I will service less
people and probably make less money, but I don't know.
There was just something in me that and then obviously my life
took this massive turn where that was.
It really solidified that for me.
So I started to evolve. I started to say, OK, I want to

(27:10):
cut back on just being the calligrapher for all these
brands and I want to. At first I was like, I never
want to do wedding stationary. I actually never started out in
the wedding industry. It's a really hard industry.
It's really hard. I will hand on heart say I work
harder to keep someone happy nowthan I like.
I mean, all I had to do to keep Chanel happy or Louis Vuitton

(27:33):
happy or Cartier happy was to make sales.
And that was easy because the calligraphy did that heavy
lifting. Like if they weren't necessarily
buying a Dior perfume, well, they were today, you know?
And so keeping a client happy was really easy.
I had an audience where we wouldget people.
So even if they didn't do any promotion or anything like that,

(27:54):
people would be there. And so it was really easy to
keep them happy. And it's not to say that brides
are difficult. It's just that there's a, you
know, there's so much at stake when you get married.
It is one of the most important days of people's lives and I
don't take that lightly. So I did sort of pivot into
doing custom bespoke work. So, you know, a lot of wedding

(28:14):
invitations and things like that.
And then I realised, yeah. And then I realised I was a
luxury brand and I was expensive.
And that was great because my time needed like everything that
I was doing was so bespoke and so much time dedicated to it
that I needed to charge that much.

(28:36):
But I wanted to be a luxury brand that didn't feel like you
had to spend thousands of dollars just to get something
from me. So that's when the digital
designs started. So you know, as as many some of
you might know, some of you don't know, then we created an
offering where I'll design your name as a couple and your
monogram so your Crest and then they can purchase that.

(28:59):
Yeah, and use it everywhere. And they can use it everywhere
so they don't have to do weddinginvitations with me.
They don't have to. I mean, now we're in the huge
trend of getting their names andcalligraphy on wedding vows.
Everything, everything. We just did a design.
For the wait staff at a wedding have like Bianca the one of the

(29:21):
prides, her white stuff had likecalligraphy on the apron like in
it's it's literally every napkins to like it's in the so.
It's like. Micro branding, it's like really
cool. I love that though.
It's aesthetical, right? Like calligraphy is aesthetical.
It's romantic. It's whimsical.
And more important than that, it's like this is the first time
your names are officially. You know, together scene

(29:44):
together. Scene together so I wanted it to
be like and that's the thing that used to really hurt me yeah
it's because people would be like but I just want to I just
want to say my names in your writing and I.
And I was like, oh, how do I do that for you without needing to
do everything for you? And so that's when that service
was born. So someone can literally come

(30:05):
now to you and just get you to just write the calligraphy.
You scan it, Yeah. So I do so I do the sketches,
they have options, they can change things.
They can be like, I like this and I want to change this and I
like the the element on this, but I can change that.
Then I do it in pointed pen calligraphy because it needs to
look authentic. And I don't believe that a lot

(30:26):
of the time when people say theydo calligraphy on invitations
that it looks like it's really been handwritten.
Whereas like doing it this way, obviously it's not handwritten
on everything that you put it on, but it looks like it's been
handwritten. It looks unique and it's
completely unique to the couple.Like I can hand on heart say
nobody's names ever look the same between all the variations

(30:51):
of the styles and. But do you feel like in a world
of like, instant gratification, that the value of calligraphy is
like, undervalued with the younger generation that's like
up and coming? Like do you think they care to
spend on stuff like this? I think the right bride does.
I'm a sentimental soul and I find that a lot of people that

(31:13):
are sentimental will gravitate towards me.
So it's not fair. I mean, I mean, I, I find
actually that the brides that I'm more concerned about the
overall aesthetic and are sentimental, would do the whole
shebang. We'll do the menus, the place
cards, the signage, everything, because they want the look.
They love the look. They want it on everything.
And they've got the budget for it.

(31:34):
And I think what's nice is that even if people don't have the
budget for it, there is an option where they can have a
little piece. And I think the most important
piece, which is their name and their monogram, they can have
that too. Yeah.
And I think what's really nice is that they always come back
and they say to me, I can't believe how much I used it.
Like, I thought it was just going to be for maybe my invites
and my menus. Yeah.

(31:55):
But it's, it's, it's on my veil.We put it on the cake.
We. I see it on sleeves I see it on.
Literally. Guest seating charts I see it
on. Every wedding albums.
I actually steal the calligraphyfrom couples.
They said, like the file you send.
Yeah. And I use it for my branding.
Yes. For like, socials.
Yeah. So like if I'm putting a story
up and then just copy and put iton top and it's like made my

(32:15):
work look a vibe. So it's it's honestly, it can be
used everywhere. What are your thoughts on E
invites? And like that kind of world, how
the shift is there because almost every couple, if I'm
invited to a wedding from like afamily or friend, or if like I
go to weddings now where I'm like taking photos of details
and I'm like, is there an invite?
Like I was saying, an E invite It's so frequent.

(32:35):
It's really common now and to behonest, I don't blame people.
I don't have an issue with it because I think, me personally,
I think wedding stationary is a massive sticker shock to people.
It is expensive. How much is expensive right now?
Like roughly. I mean, I guess it's not.
Just for you, but like, do you know the general?
Market, Yeah, I mean, OK, there's two really, really,
really big elements that will sort of determine the cost of

(32:57):
your wedding environment. And I think I've got a really
great way of doing it in the sense that, I mean, I'm really
mind, I'm really mindful of how much weddings cost.
I don't know, we talk about like, oh, we're luxury supplies,
luxury supplies, luxury supplies.
But I don't think that being a luxury supplier means that you
need to be insanely expensive. I agree.

(33:19):
I think luxury comes from the level of attention and devotion
what they're getting. So for me, I think I'm luxury
because unlike other graphic designers, and there's some
incredible invitation designers and incredible designers out
there, and definitely not the only person that's doing a good
job. I think what people appreciate

(33:39):
is that I can't type your calligraphy.
I have to sit there and sketch it.
I have to do it in calligraphy. I have to scan it.
I'm basically making an artwork out of it.
And so when you see a menu that's all handwritten
calligraphy, but it's been printed, that's an incredibly
insane amount of work. And that obviously comes with a

(34:00):
higher price tag. But I think, like I said to you,
I want to be a luxury brand, butI don't want to be the type of
business where it feels exclusionary to everybody.
And so that's where the name thing really feels like a good.
Can you tell me specifics right now about?
That so the things that are really going to push your

(34:20):
pricing up, OK, give me numbers really going to push your
pricing up is obviously quantityof gas.
Yeah, it's going to be the amount of pieces in the actual
suite and it's gonna be your print type.
OK, so it's like saying how? Long I now know this 'cause I
did not, I know I did invite. George's wedding invite.
When she talks about sweets guys, she's talking about like

(34:43):
main card for the invitation plus.
VP details. We had a timeline card because
I'm a Venice and there's bride house, groom house.
George went all out. I told you, I know we're going
to talk about this because I didthe biggest.
I told you so the other day withGeorge.
Yes. So the thing for me is like if
you're wanting to do. I know where you're going.

(35:04):
With all the bells and whistles.Like lots of cards.
But I love tangible. Well then, that was the right
spend for you, George. Because I love that I feel like
so do I when I get in the right at home.
OK, so little leb story. This is like a log story.
Listen, I'm not even a. Lib name I I I'm.
Four, so like when someone gets married in the family sometimes

(35:26):
like now or like five years ago,that all the invites for that
family would rock up to like thegrandparents house or like, you
know, like my, my parents collect them.
Yeah, 'cause they can't go to them too.
And it's so exciting. Yeah.
If you get that text message from your mum or like in the
big, big family chat with all the cousins, they're like, so
and so drop their wedding invites at you don't date this
house. Go pick him up.
And you're like, this is what the wedding's going to look

(35:49):
like. You know what I mean?
And I love that feeling. So for us, when Alexi and I sat
down with you at your office, we're like, you put a Pantone
colours. Like we were so specific and I'm
like, no one's going to give a fuck about this shit, but we
did. And like, I was like, that's all
that mattered. Like we had to like match the
envelope and GSMS. And anyways, point being said, I

(36:12):
know what she's gonna say, so I'm gonna be able to the punch.
The big mistake I did was I did.Well, let me, let me let me say,
all right, why a mistake? And then we're gonna say what
your mistake was. All right, So what I try to do?
OK, so if you want all the bellsand whistles, letterpress, you
know, calligraphy on the envelopes, everything you're
looking at like let's say starting point about $4000 if

(36:34):
we're basing it off about 100 invites.
And for some couples that's expected and that's what they
want to spend. And I mean, personally, I'm a
stationary girl. I spent, I got married 10 years
ago. I spent a lot of money on my
stationary. What I will say though, is that
there is ways to make it a lot more cost effective and still
have that wow factor. And I say to couples, you need

(36:57):
to cut down your card numbers inthe sense that don't have an
RSAP card, details card, you know, wrap all of this sort of
stuff. I think we're moving towards a
shift where we will have one beautiful card.
And AQR code. Literally, I just did that for I
can't share who it is yet 'causethey're not married yet, but I

(37:18):
will share it 'cause I'm going to the wedding.
Guys, when she said she'll shareit, she'll share it to me when
this ends. Yes, it's just their names in
calligraphy on the front and AQRcode on the back.
Hectic. Literally like minimal, minimal
minimal which suited that couple.
Also then when they go to the website, all the details are
there. Everything is there that's
hectic and obviously their calligraphy is in digital form,

(37:39):
so it's on the website and they've got all their photos and
they can give you. So The thing is like I I
probably wouldn't do just the QRcode.
I think you need to set the tonethat suited that couple and that
wedding. No, I think you're right.
Yeah, that's such a vibe. It was a vibe, but I think for
me, I I'm a bit romantic. I like to set the tone.

(38:00):
So you want a beautiful invite, You want something tangible, You
want something that's going to tell people, Is it black tie?
Is it romantic? Is it whimsical?
Is it in a garden? Is it in a forest?
Is it at a ballroom? Like, you want to give people a
sense of the wedding and we can make it really beautiful, but we
don't need to spend a ridiculousamount of money to do that.
And the way we do that is we have some details like the date,

(38:22):
the location, and then everything else goes through a
website. I'm a big, big, big, big, big
believer in RSVP websites because I mean, ultimately it's
just so much more time. Like, people forget that RSVP
cards are expensive. They're really expensive.
It's not just the print, the organisation behind it.

(38:44):
Organisation is hard, really hard, so hard.
The you need to provide people with an envelope or at least a
return stamp like a postcard style.
Like if you've got 100 people, your return stamps are an extra
$200 just in postage, plus you've got a post the invite as
well. Yeah.
So these are all hidden costs that people never factor in.

(39:07):
It's. Also so much more time consuming
because you've got to wait for them to then go to the post
office and like sometimes some people do.
They're not doing it. They don't go to the.
George, I work in the wedding industry.
I do stationary. I forget to RSVP to people's
weddings. I'm so sorry if I didn't.
RSVP no if I can invite RSVP while they're with me.
Yeah. So my, that's a good point.
Actually. Let me just check.
I'm free. Cool.
Here you go. Depends how much you like them.
Sometimes we have to go home anddiscuss whose things we want to

(39:29):
go to. Such a bitch because sometimes
we have more than one. You're such a fucking bitch.
I'm married to a Lebanese guy, so sometimes, you know, like we
have more than one wedding on one day and maybe it'll be the
invite that decides which one we're going.
To no. For us, our struggle was I've
said this before publicly, I don't know if anyone's picked up
on it, but we had so many peoplecome back with forgetting to
write their names, the ISVP card.
So just take. Is my number the back?

(39:49):
Yes, attending. I did a number the back so then
when we get it, yes, attending and I was like.
But who are you? Yeah, the other amazing thing
about this? This is a funny part I.
Feel like I need to be getting kickbacks from those arrows
fave. It's so true.
Sorry. Like can I please have a?
Yes, I'm gonna give a yes, I'm gonna give her a sponsorship.
Yeah, actually, the dietary requirements killed me and I
waiting. I found it so comical.

(40:10):
It was one of the funniest things I've ever experienced.
I don't like pork. And you're like.
No, Someone wrote seafood and I was like, seafood only and
seafood. No seafood.
Yeah, like what am I doing in this situation?
Do you know what I used to do? But realise RSVPS, Yeah, I used
to write people little notes. I'm so yeah, I do that.
Excited to come to your wedding.I am gonna be ripping up your

(40:33):
dance floor. I'm gonna be like, I'm gonna be
the most wasted person at your wedding.
Well, I try to keep a classy George, OH.
Yeah, OK, me too. Yeah, I do that too.
Well, pretend I'm classy. So yes.
So you like ISVP? Love them also just from an
which has got nothing to do withme but I mean your.
Your client details are all organised for you.

(40:54):
Dietary requirements, number of people attending their names
because guess what when you do place cards, you need to give me
a list of the names of the people that are attending and
they need to be spell checked and everything like that So if
people have already done that for themselves, you've not only
saved them time and made it convenient, you've saved
yourself a ridiculous amount of time when you want to do your.

(41:15):
A lot of these RSVP sites will also have like table planning
software. Yeah.
So then all of this can be imported.
Yeah, do that for. My brother Oh.
My God, where was this one? I planned 350 people.
It's got a wedding planning to door but for my brother.
I just like this website can literally do your seating plan
for you and it's like no way. Yeah, hectic or so good.
I'm if I don't get a kickback after this from

(41:37):
idontknowrsvp.com. Actually, I think that's a
dating site. I don't think that's an RSVP
site. Don't go to that if you're
getting married. Or if you want to get married.
Start their friends, right? Yeah, Actually, I don't know if
it is. Maybe it's not.
Maybe it just sounds. Wrong.
You said it anyways. I've been I've been with my
husband since I was 19. So I've never, I've never gone

(41:57):
you. Have a baby?
I know. Cradle Snatcher proposed to you
in Paris, right? Yes, he did.
I remember that. Oh my God, you remember random?
Stuff I know everything you do we've.
Been friends for a long time. We've been friends for a very
long time. So anyway, let's get to to cut
to the chase, I then decided I wanted to do something
sentimental, a product. I wanted to take what was

(42:18):
successful with all these luxurybrands and make something my
own. And I probably spent I reckon 6
months thinking about it. Like what would be do I do my
own perfume bottle? I was like no, because people
want their own perfume. Like that's not.
Going to So the Snowflake was the first product.
Well, it kind of came about in areally organic way and that's

(42:40):
why I believe that things that are meant to be will sometimes
find you. Christmas rolls around and I'm a
massive Christmas person bro. Bro like.
I'm so sorry to anyone who doesn't like Christmas.
I think I get unfollows. I know.

(43:01):
I think George wants to unfollowme at one point.
No, it's nice. I like your Christmas stuff.
It's only because it's mostly your photos.
I'm just I'm just like bro thinking of putting up Christmas
tree kills me every year. Oh my God, if you knew how many
Christmas? Anyway, let's get to that point.
So I'm doing my Christmas tree. I've got three young kids.
I had this tradition with my grandmother that she had all
these beautiful vintage ornaments.

(43:22):
She had all these stories that she would tell and it was like
one of my most, you know, those core memories that you have with
people, core memories. I really wanted to recreate that
for my kids. So I was like easy done.
I'm just going to get them nice personalised ornaments.
Well, I never thought to myself like, oh, I'm going to make them

(43:44):
myself. Never in a million years.
I literally went online was likeluxury personalised ornaments.
I wanted something to be. What's wrong with the ornaments
from the shopping centres where they dipped the glitter and
they're like 900 colours. Joe, you stuck up bitch.
Look, I will say something on that.
I have the one that my grandmother did for me.
It's cute and it's so cute. It's so kitch.

(44:06):
It's like, it's so Ted. It's fugly.
Yeah, right. But the problem is, is that it
literally fell apart. Like, I will.
I you know what? I will post this after we do
this interview. I've still got it, but like, all
the glitter's fallen off my name.
Like it's horrific. How dare it.
Well, I mean it, it needed to. Like, it was never something.
It was not an heirloom, OK? It was something cute and camp

(44:28):
and I love those. I love campy Christmas
decorations. Don't think I'm a snob.
It's more that it needed to be something that I, because my
grandma's ornaments broke, you know, the one that was
personalised with my name lookedhorrific, like it went at the
back of the tree purely for sentimental reasons, but you
would die if you saw it. And so I was like, I just want

(44:48):
something that's going to look good that when they put up their
own Christmas trees, they're going to be like, oh, this is
that nice ornament that my mum bought for me.
No, I could not find anything. Nothing, nothing.
I mean, there's beautiful, there's lots and lots and lots
and lots of beautiful Christmas ornaments out there, but there
is nothing that's has the ability to be personalised.

(45:11):
All the personalised ones are like timber or they're acrylic
or they were, you know, like theballs that you talk about, the
glitter ones and look, the glitter ball people have upped
their game. They do look beautiful, but
they're just not designed to last.
They're plastic. The glitter falls off, you know,
like they're beautiful for the time and for what you pay and
the value is perfect for that purpose.

(45:32):
You know, it's not that they're terrible.
So I was like, I'm going to design my own.
I was like, I'm an engraver. It's insane.
I want a glass ornament and I want something that I can
design. I.
Want to open as you're talking? Yeah, do it.
I love skiing, love the snow. I have like me and Charlie's

(45:53):
first holiday was to the snow. So the snowflake just felt
right. I was like I need to design A
glass with actually crystal, which is even better snowflake.
That will be something that my kids will have it in 50 years
time. Yeah.
And it's got my engraving on it.And it's such a flex.
It's so pretty. I I do love it.

(46:15):
This is like me kind of showing off my friend's work but also
like. I know it's and it's got your
big new baby's name. Yeah, she just gifted it, so
it's like so special. I love it.
It's actually very pretty. Did a good job.
It's very like. Oh my God, the work that went
into that, you wouldn't think. It.
So it started with the snowflake.
Yeah. And then how long after did you
come up with the heart? The heart.
Was my like, I really liked the heart.

(46:37):
I just look at the light. I'll say to your face, this has
more value to me than this because I feel like this is.
Maybe because you're not a Christmas lover?
I think I am a. Christmas lover.
I just like, I feel like Christmas decoration should be
left for the Kardashians becauselike you're never going to top
it. Like it's like, do you know what
I mean? Like Christmas only looks good
when you're doing it good. Yes.
So unless you're doing it good, it's cute.
It's cute for the kids. Like the only reason why I like

(46:58):
Christmas is for my kids. 100% and I really just say that I'm.
Saying I'm talking about aesthetical.
I will. I want to say something about
that because I think people havegotten the impression that like
these ornaments are something that can only be beautiful if
they're on an incredibly styled tree, because obviously the
trees that I showcase are incredible.
They're done by my friend Alana,who's like, you know, literally

(47:20):
like. What's her business called?
Dancer and Dasha, yeah, she's her trees are just like next
level, but my tree doesn't look like that.
She's going to listen to this. She does my.
To my opinion, I love Christmas.Trees.
People's trees. I want Dancer and Dasha to do my
tree. Supposed to have an aesthetic
tree. Our trees are supposed to be
full of memories, and that's what I want my trees to be.
And so your your tree doesn't have to look like it's out of a,

(47:43):
you know, designer. Obviously the stem of your
grandmother sentiment, yeah. My experience with working with
luxury brands and knowing how much people wanted something
sentimental but personal. So yeah, that that was I.
Recently found out that. Was where?
Products started. Natalia's name was based off
Christmas. Yeah.
Natalia is like the female version of Natalie, which means

(48:07):
literally Christmas in Italia. Wow that's awesome.
I never told my husband that when I named her that though.
Switching gears about personal life, Yeah.
And that's also where the heart came in.
You know, I wanted to create sentimental products that were
personalised. And like, I mean, what's more
beautiful than personalise something that lives on your
heart? And I think that was where the

(48:29):
heart came in. I'm.
Going to switch gears business talk I know going to personal
yes so you had three beautiful girls yes tell me about your
three beautiful. Girls.
Oh wow, it was the best thing that ever happened to me.
I never, I was never a clucky person.
I was never like, can't wait to be a mum.

(48:51):
I always wanted to be a mum. Don't get me wrong.
I, you know, we'd always spoken about, you know, when you do
those pre marriage classes with church, when you get married and
they're like, how many children do you want?
Charlie wrote 3 and I wrote 2 and then we realised that we
both got what we wanted. I got 2 pregnancies and he got
three kids. So yeah, life was perfect.

(49:12):
I had a business that I loved. I had three beautiful children,
wonderful husband. Yeah.
It was great friends. Great friends.
Yeah. The best of friends.
Yeah. I also want to point out that
just on that topic, and I don't think I've ever said this to
you, but. Don't make me cry because I'm
really. Satisfied.
I credit a lot of my success to.You.

(49:32):
No, no, we're going to skip. This because I know that I never
For me, photography and Instagram was a massive part of
my brand and my business and I would never have gotten the
clients. I would never have sold the
products that I've sold. I truly and genuinely believe
that without good photography, you have nothing to sell.
You can have the best product inthe world.

(49:53):
I agree with what you're saying,it's very uncommon.
I know. And I just want to say thank you
so much for everything that you did.
George. Did all of my my photography for
any? Baby that's still there.
I always, I always like go back to a nice little.
Reminder. Yes, first person to put me.
George photographed some of my perfumes and then Vogue back at
your home featured them. Yes.
To go over to Joe's house. That was Georges.

(50:14):
And we would just have like little flat ladies and I'll just
shoot it and should see it and would like both like each other.
And we're kind of like, let's change this, Let's try this.
And every like few months we'd kind of like try to come with a
new idea. And you bought snow one time
before you ever used this. Yes, we're testing face.
Before I had made a snowflake. Before you made a snowflake like
it's been years of journey. But I appreciate what you're
saying and I thank you for it, but it's not the reason it's

(50:36):
it's a. Huge.
Part of it, but it's not. The and again, it goes back to
again, like you can have an amazing product, but we are of
some of all the things that comeinto our world and I recognise
that photography was really, really, really important.
And you are such an incredible talent and I'm so incredibly
lucky to have met you at the beginning of your career when
you had the opportunity to dedicate time to me.

(50:59):
George doesn't do my photographyanymore.
She. Can't afford me guys because I
can't afford. Him and he's too in demand,
taking the most incredible look.He photographs my stationary for
free now because I get all your wedding photos now.
So I just, I just wanted to say thank you and I'm so incredibly
blessed to have met you. Likewise, it's right back at

(51:19):
you. Cheers.
That's right. Cheers.
Cheers to us. So anyway.
I want to talk. Journey.
So yeah, three kids, husband. Listen, your story is not, is
not. I'm going to try to wear this
nicely. So guys, be patient with me.
If you're listening to this audio, but your story is not
defined by your challenges, yourlosses and the struggles you've

(51:43):
went through. Yeah.
And be really strong and get through this.
Yeah. But it's definitely a big part
of your story. And Natalia is a big part of
your story. Yes.
Natalia's. All my children are a big part.
Of it, well, your children are abig part of your story, but you
know, you lived a nightmare thata lot of people, yeah, pray they
never. You know, and I think, I think

(52:04):
what's interesting is that. I'm so going to fucking cry.
Don't eat it. I'm not going to, I'm not going
to, but can you just talk for a little bit?
Yeah. So I think, you know, the
youngster position of like this incredible story that we've
talked about and this journey and all this stuff that we've
gone through. I guess what George is talking

(52:26):
about is that and George was there for an intense period of
this time because George was actually getting married.
You were getting married at the time.
So in 2021, my daughter was, My daughter Natalia was sick.
She was diagnosed with a childhood brain tumour.

(52:47):
So she had brain cancer. And it was like, I cannot
describe to you what the feelingof having.
I would say it all my life was not perfect, but God, it was
pretty close to it, you know, great relationship, financially
stable, 3 beautiful, healthy children, wonderful family

(53:10):
business that I loved. You know, it was, there was
nothing that I wanted in this earth and we our world literally
shattered, you know, so I, I don't know what to say next

(53:32):
about that. I guess it was like this car
crash crash of my life completely flipped.
And I was incredibly grateful tohave an assistant at the time.
So she kind of dealt with brides.
We had to cancel all of these events that I had coming up on
site events. I had a massive partnership with
AMEZ at the time that I had to be cancelled.

(53:54):
And there was, you know, it was everything.
My husband had a construction company that had to be we we
just life stopped. Yeah, literally everything
stopped. What was it like?
And this was post COVID as well,so we were just getting back

(54:15):
into our routine of things and getting over like all the
issues. Like obviously I was in the
wedding space and in the in store space, so.
We're dealing with like the restrictions around weddings
and. Work had completely collapse for
me. He was in the construction
business. Work had completely collapse,
couldn't get materials. We had lockdowns, you know,
remember when you couldn't leavethe LGA so no one could go to

(54:35):
work it? You know, it just felt like
things were finally starting to go back to normal.
And all of a sudden, like all the things that we thought were
challenges through COVID, it waslike, yeah, I often forget COVID
happened. Can you can you remember like
the first few months of like when Natalia was diagnosed and
how that journey transitioned from in every retrospect

(54:57):
personal business? Yeah, so Natalia obviously
within she got diagnosed and that day she went in for a 12
hour brain surgery. So there's no like you're not
getting time to process what's happening to you, you know, and

(55:18):
then she was in ICU for a coupleof weeks.
And it's funny because every stage of this thing that happens
to you when your child is incredibly sick, it's like
you're just looking to the next milestone.
So the the milestone was, is shegoing to be able to walk again?
Is she going to be able to talk again?
Is she going to recover from thesurgery?

(55:40):
You know, at the time you don't even have the capacity to think
about what are we going to do about the cancer.
You just need her to recover from the surgery of the actual
removal of the tumour. It's a long story.
What I will say is that essentially Charlie and I lived
in a hospital for a little bit, just going on a year and a half.

(56:06):
There's a lot of intricacies in that.
You know, we were told in the beginning that she had an 80%
chance of survival. So obviously, you know,
chemotherapy, radiation, all of the things that you need to do,
it was incredibly hard. I mean, I think that's probably
underplaying it. But it's definitely underplaying

(56:27):
it. What was like?
You just want your child to survive.
That's the only thing that I I don't.
Want to get it too doom and gloom because like, there's so
many questions I can ask that are just out of touch a little
bit. I don't really want to kind of
dive into like I'm just rehatching your pain and your
trauma. But you know, it's we always

(56:47):
have this conversation in private.
Yeah. About loss and how how
uncomfortable this conversation is and I'm sure a lot of people
even listening to this feel a little bit uncomfortable whether
they've encountered like immediate loss, like within like
their close circle of family or friends.
And even if they haven't, it's an it's an uncomfortable

(57:08):
conversation for a lot of people, understandably.
How was dealing with not just Natalia's loss when she passed,
but you know, her going through illness like.
I think the part that people don't see is that obviously I
did have to say something publicly on my Instagram, while
I never had a really personal page.

(57:31):
And like, even to this day, you know, I do share a bit of what I
do, but it's always in the vein of like, how will this interest
my audience? Like, for example, what I wear
to a wedding or, you know, things that are in style or
weddings that I love or trends or whatever.
You're not very personal on Instagram.
I I don't. I always find it hard to know
whether I am or I'm not. I think that I am, but maybe I'm

(57:52):
feel. Like you're like.
Very reserved. Yeah, like the like you're on
Instagram. Yes, we see your face.
Yeah, but other than Natalia, I don't think anything's ever been
shared. I found it incredibly difficult.
I think if I'd had a choice, I would never have said anything
publicly. Really.

(58:12):
Yes, because it just felt so huge.
Like how do I even say the words?
But I had so many people that were relying on me.
I had a business that literally collapsed overnight.
I had so many people relying on me.

(58:32):
I had so many brides that I had to.
I had felt like I had to tell people why I why I wasn't at
work. And what was the response you
watch? I mean, people were incredibly
supportive. People sent lots of messages of
love and, you know, and obviously lots of prayers for my
daughter and, and I really, really, really greatly

(58:53):
appreciated the love and the, the support.
But it was, I don't think anyonecan ever understand the depth of
what we went through. Obviously, you know, I've never
had any intention of sharing anyof that.
And, you know, my daughter's life and journey was incredibly
private and not something that Ifelt needed to be broadcast on

(59:16):
socials. But what a lot of people don't
know is that there's so many. So to give context, we we
thought she would survive. You know, we didn't think you
never think that your child is going to pass.
And so when we were told that her cancer had come back, we,

(59:45):
that was really the moment that,you know, there's a part of you
that doesn't believe it, that wants to hold on to hope.
And there is a part of you that will be forever collapsed as a
person, you know, And a lot of people don't realise that we
were going through that sort of.That happened at about 6 months

(01:00:08):
after her diagnosis and we then had to switch to trying to
wanting to try other treatments.When I say other treatments, I'm
not talking about like we're talking about like things our
oncologists, you know, experimental trial medications
that were being trials and couldpotentially.

(01:00:29):
So I'll share it, but if you want me to cut it out later,
I'll cut it out later because I know you opened up to me about
it. So I don't know if you wanted to
be public, but like the trial medication is an uncomfortable
kind of topic to have because there's money associated around
it. But one of the greatest
challenges I found that you faced was the cost of trial

(01:00:49):
medication and what implication it has to like business run
families, right? Like when you are a family
that's running off business, whether it's yourself or
Charlie, whether one of you's orboth of you's, once you stop
working, money stops coming in. It's not like you're working for
a corporation where you can say,like my child's sick, I need the
year off. And they'll say we'll still pay
your salary and you get sick leave or you know what I mean?

(01:01:12):
I'm paid leave. And then when you go back, you
still get money. We stop.
If I go on a holiday, no money is being made.
If I stop working for six months, no money is coming.
How do you pay for the mortgage?How do you pay for your kids?
And you had this trial medication?
Together with business. Stopped.
That's the part that I wanted toget to.
So dystopian to live in this world where you say you're told

(01:01:32):
sick, nothing else matters. And that is 100% my experience.
However, we basically got sat down and we were told, look,
there is other options for medications that may help to
prolong her life. We were given six months at the
time and we were like, we need these medications.
I was like, there's an issue. She's not eligible to be on a

(01:01:53):
trial. She and I mean, look, let's not
even go into the complexities of, you know, all of that.
But I need to. And also just the complexities
of the medical system where there's a lot of children that
do fall through the gap. And when you're a child, when
you're a parent that just wants to save their child's life, you

(01:02:13):
don't care about the bureaucracyof how much it's going to cost
or why the government can or can't pay.
Because it costs. So we basically got told there
is a medication that we can try from the US It's shown some
positive results in some children.
Give it a shot. But you're going to have to pay
for it yourself. And we're like, OK, done.

(01:02:33):
And then we're like, yeah, it's $90,000 a month.
And she will need to take this medication for as long as she
can. Like, there will be no, There
will be no cure. There will be no.
Yeah. And so I think people have often
wondered why, because essentially we were like, Oh my

(01:02:57):
God, like, whatever it takes, wewant that medication.
So we did it and we paid for it.And again, we were extremely
lucky that we were financially secure.
I mean, we were financially secure, but I mean, how long
could we sustain this? So, you know, we'd spoken about
whether we needed to sell our home, whether we needed to, what

(01:03:18):
were we going to do? You know, we'd already been
hugely financially impacted fromCOVID, which was fine.
You know, we got through. It was just a rocky, rocky time,
and that's why, you know, we were.
Fuck you so strongly. I mean, we were, and I, I credit
my husband for that. He's financially very
responsible and he, you know, put things in place to ensure

(01:03:41):
that if something like COVID ever happened, we would be OK.
But you know, then COVID and then this.
And I don't even know how we survived, but I mean, I was
like, OK, I need to do something.
So my snowflakes that we spoke about had done incredibly well
the before they'd they'd blown up and and they'd done it
incredibly well. So I called my manufacturer and

(01:04:03):
I was like, look, I need to place another order.
Obviously I'd told them I wasn'tworking.
I was like, I need to place another order.
I need to do something, I need to sell something, I need to
bring some sort of income in. So we were at the point where
Charlie was at work. I was working, I was staying at
the hospital during the day while Charlie was at work.

(01:04:27):
And then he would come at night when he finished work and he
would sleep at the hospital withher.
And I would go home and I would engrave ornaments all night
long. And then I would go back to the
hospital at 6:00 in the morning so that he could go to work.
And then I would stay the night and he would come the next
morning. And we just did that for six

(01:04:47):
months. And you know, it's so easy for
people to say like, why wouldn'tyou just throw everything aside
and spend as much time as you possibly could with her?
I mean, basically we just weren't sleeping and we were
working. The hospital had a one person
rule at the time anyway. So regardless, we couldn't have

(01:05:07):
been with her together anyway. It was still COVID rules.
But it's deeply saddening to me that, you know, financial things
were something that we had to think about at the time.
It's very hard. Yeah, so she she survived 12

(01:05:28):
months instead of 6. And we're incredibly grateful
for that and everything that we put into that medication.
I mean, you know, you would giveyour life.
If I could have taken her spot, I would have, you know, that
would have been such an easy choice.
So I think what I'm trying to say is that I owe a lot to this

(01:05:48):
business and I owe lots of my products and I owe I just.
I'm incredibly grateful of our family, our businesses.
Yes, and I'm incredibly gratefulfor the heartbeat, the fact that
I had the ability to do something and while it wasn't
much, I mean, it wasn't making ahuge dent.
It was. Fun.

(01:06:09):
The juxtaposition of your life in that period.
I know, so crazy, right? Like if you really want to think
about it, you were suffering andstruggling and then going home.
Yeah. Sick child engraving to bring
other people happiness. Yeah.
And as a friend when I was singing, Right.
This girl's crazy. Like you're apologising to me
when I was getting married. I'm like to not even like don't

(01:06:31):
call me anymore. I didn't get to go to daughter's
wedding. But I'm like, stop calling me
stupid. Like you shouldn't talk.
So I get, I get like where the notion is.
But for me, like, I know you on a very, very, very, very
personal level. Yeah, this might be wrong, it
might feel wrong to you, but from what I saw is you're very
strong. Like you get a choice, George.

(01:06:51):
Yeah, I know. But like it to the point of
like, I, you asked me, you called me once and you said, can
you come take family photos for me, Natalia?
And I was like, no, I don't everdo this.
And you're like, please. And I was like, fine, I'll do
it. So I came over and Natalia was,
I think it's the last family photo.
That's our last family photos. And I took it and I it killed me

(01:07:12):
and I was like, I'm not allowed to be in pain because it's not
my pain. I think it's everybody's.
Pain, but when that moment the like 2 hours I was there you and
Charlie were like Oscar winning strong and I was like how the
fuck are you doing this like because so still alive I know

(01:07:33):
but. You know, that wasn't the
hardest time. So incredible.
Like it's, it's so hard. It's so hard, but you know it's
going to get worse. And the reality is, is you, it's
a very weird place to live whereyou know that you have a timer
on how long you have with somebody.
That doesn't happen that often, particularly not with a child.

(01:07:55):
Unfortunately, a lot of people experience child loss where it's
quite sudden or unexpected. And so to live in this world
where you know that you've got such a limited amount of time
with this child. Time sucks, man.
Yeah, I think that. If there's anything.
My child was still there and that as as hard as that time

(01:08:16):
was, it was still a good time, you know?
Any lessons that like surprised you that you learnt?
I mean, a child's death, a child's death should never be a
lesson. Yeah.
It's just a tragedy. There's no sugar coating yet.
There's no silver lining. There's no, it changed me as a

(01:08:38):
person. Like to be really candid with
you, it changed me as a person fundamentally, I will never be
the same and not in a good way. You know, I might be a strong
person and I choose, I choose tobe strong because I have to be.
I have two other children that really, really need me that have
been through something that no child should ever go through.
Besides Natalia, She has an identical twin sister who's now

(01:09:02):
navigating life on her own without her sister.
And I have an older daughter who, you know, misses her sister
a lot. And this happened when Natalia
was five, so the kids were very conscious of what was going.
On do you ever get like support with people to walk you through?
So I'm going to try to be strong, 'cause I have this and
it's not trying to like, it's taking so much to like not

(01:09:23):
corrupt. You've done a really good job,
George. It's unlike you.
I know, but being a parent really fucks you.
I know like. You understand it so much more.
You didn't have children every. Time.
Like she was pregnant when Natalia passed.
But like, I didn't have children.
I had nieces, so I felt like my kids.
But when you have kids you really like feed this shit.
Like it's like a nightmare. Literally, I am.

(01:09:45):
I am every parent's worst nightmare and that's why it's so
hard. But I want to continue asking
this because I know that whetheryour parents had suffered this
or like, you know, just loss in general, it's a conversation
that should not be like frightened from from people
because it's the reality of life, right?
And you've got to be strong enough to kind of have
conversations because ultimately, like Natalia's life

(01:10:08):
has her own legacy and her own story, right?
And there always should be as unfortunate as it is something
that comes from it, whether it like, you know, makes some
impact or change in this world. But did you ever have sorry,
fucking sniffling, guys, I'm really sorry.
But did you ever have support orlike what really like dug you

(01:10:33):
out of like certain like momentswhen it's like during and after
Natalia passed? I mean, I'm not going to
sugarcoat it. It is something that you never
get over. It's something that I deal with
everyday. I think I, we had a lot of
support from the hospital at thetime, but this is a lifelong

(01:10:54):
journey like, and it's, I think people's misconception of grief
and loss is so. And I mean, I had the same one,
right? Like, and I think there's common
things. And I think this is also why I
hesitate to speak about Natalia publicly or post about it.
Besides the fact that calligraphy on Vogue is not me.

(01:11:18):
I am Joe. I'm Joe Eleanor.
I'm a mum of three kids. Calligraphy on Vogue is its own
entity. Yes, it's it's a piece of me,
but it's one part of me. It's my creative side.
It's my love of fashion, it's mylove of the frivolous.
It's my love of love. It's about sentiment.
And I don't want to, I don't want to say taint that place.
Like obviously people have heardsome things about my story and I

(01:11:40):
have shared some things, particularly if it's come
around, like fundraising or raising awareness about brain
cancer and these things. But I don't want the page to
become something other than whatit was intended to be, which was
the place to celebrate people's love.
I love that. I think what I, there's a couple

(01:12:01):
of things that I think I've learnt from this is that one,
grief doesn't look the way we think it should.
A lot of people like to tell me,which I don't think is
particularly helpful, but a lot of people like to tell me, oh,
you do so you've done so well oryou look so strong, or you can
speak about it without breaking down.
And it's like I've been speakingabout it and living it for, you

(01:12:21):
know, between her death and her diagnosis and you know, the time
beyond that for over 4 1/2 years.
So I've built a shield between the words that come out of my
mouth and the things that I think keep, which is probably
why I sound quite clinical aboutit.

(01:12:41):
Maybe because you have to it's. Also very hard to kind of say
the honest truth about it like sometimes like to.
To people's opinions are hard. Like, I mean, people look at me
and they say like, I could neverhave gone back to work if my
child passed away. I could never survive.
I don't know how you survive. Well, guys, what choice do I
have? You know, what choice do I have?

(01:13:02):
The only thing I can do is try to make somewhat of a life for
my children, my surviving children who deserve the mother
that I was before, the happy person that I was before.
My husband deserves someone who's a good partner because of
everything that he's gone through.
I mean, he's gone through this just as much as I have.

(01:13:24):
And people think that like, in order to be grieving, that means
that you can't be doing anythingenjoyable.
You can't be doing anything. And I think the thing that
always comes to my mind is that when I was having the happiest
moments of my life, the birth ofmy children, my wedding day,
milestone birthdays, my children's birthdays, family

(01:13:47):
holidays, all these things, somebody else was living the
worst day of their life. And you can't go through life
being bitter that this has happened to you.
I still love celebrating people's weddings.
I still, I didn't go to people'sweddings for a long time because

(01:14:09):
I just didn't have the energy. But I mean, now that I still
love going to people's weddings,I still love sharing their happy
moments because I know that for them, this could be one of the
most life defining moments. And how incredible that I get to
witness that and be a part of that.
And I still love it when people tell me about their babies and

(01:14:31):
their pregnancies because these were the most incredible moments
of my life. And nothing that's happened to
me since then. It's changed that.
So I still choose to be happy with what I have while
simultaneously being very devastated by the things that

(01:14:53):
I've lost. So yeah, that's it.
Very beautifully. OK.
We got through it, George. I don't know how we did what we
did. Guys, I'm the most selfish
friend by the way, I'm going to like out myself here when I
wrote these questions and then Even so often because I there's
no way I can get through it. Quadro bawling my eyes out and
I'm like, I don't want to do this episode.

(01:15:17):
I'm like the worst friend when it comes to this year.
I'm sorry. I think I've, I, I, I want to
say, though, I think I'm happy to have had the ability to have
my say on the situation without feeling like I need to have
other people's responses come back to me.
Yeah. And I think that's why I don't
share about this a lot on Instagram.

(01:15:38):
It's not that I don't think thatshe's worth talking about.
Of course she's my daughter. I will talk about her until I
take my very last breath. Yeah, but it's very hard to live
in a world where people have so many judgements and so much to
say, whether it's good or bad, because mostly people have
really wonderful, lovely things to say or they want to tell me

(01:15:59):
about their story. It's incredibly difficult to
have the emotional bandwidth to be able to take that in.
I have to deal with the emotional repercussions of my
own grief and suffering and thatof my children and of my husband
and of my extended family and also to some extent, my friends

(01:16:21):
and family. Because this didn't just happen
to me, it happened to everybody that knew her.
And this isn't my story. It's her story.
She's the victim, not me. I'm just the person that was
lucky enough to get to be able to spend 5 incredible years with

(01:16:42):
her. SO This is why I'm grateful that
I had a chance to talk about it with a friend and sort of
clarify. I know there's a lot of things
that people say and people assume and people see one side
of the situation or they see my business and my brand and they
think that it's maybe odd that Istill work.

(01:17:04):
But I mean what else would I do with my time 5?
Percent, 100%. Like there's only so much that
you can wallow in your own misery without just needing
something that's. I want to ask one final
question. Yes, and I want it to end on.
Let's let's go back to weddings.I think we need to feel like we

(01:17:25):
need to at least. Do our time now we're going to
end up with one, one question because I feel like it's
important. Yeah.
And just for like future time, capital purposes, but looking
back on your life, yeah, career,family losses and triumphs.
Yeah. Those four kind of segments,
what's one piece of advice that you'd want to pass down both to

(01:17:48):
your daughters, but also a lot of people that I admire you?
I think I built a business around this.
Ultimately, I truly reflect on what I believe and that is at
the end of it. At the end of the day, we are
just legacies, right? Everything I've done in this

(01:18:13):
life, the good, the bad, the ugly, the tragic, the not so
good, I will just become a sum of those memories, right?
My kids, my friends, my family will Remember Me for certain
things, good and bad. And I just like to live my life

(01:18:35):
thinking to myself, what is the legacy that I will leave the
people that I care about the most and you know.
So what's the piece of wisdom oradvice you'd want to give to
your daughters and just anyone listening to your last piece of
wisdom? My last piece of wisdom is one
day is going to be your last dayon earth.

(01:18:57):
What are the things that you're going to reflect back on?
What do you think? Talk to old people.
That's one thing that I was really blessed with as a
podiatrist. I talked to a lot of old people
and I think that was probably the basis of, besides my own
sentimental grandmother and thatsort of side of me, talk to a
lot of old people. And the one thing I think that

(01:19:18):
we forget when we're young and we think about all these things
that we think that we care deeply about.
What do you think the things arethat you're going to reflect
back on as a nine year old on your deathbed, God willing, with
all your family standing around you holding your hand?
I can assure you it's not going to be how much money you made in
a year. What house looks?
Like what your house looks like?Exactly what kind of car you

(01:19:41):
drove. It's.
Going to be. Correct.
What we looked like and I think live for those moments and of
course work and be successful, but wrecking, I think
recognising that, you know, the the most important thing that me
and Charlie ever did with our success was to be able to pay

(01:20:03):
for my daughter's treatment, forexample, because there was a lot
of people that I know would havereally struggled to be able to
do that. And so I think we need to take a
really big step back and think about.
Why are we doing this? What are the most important
things? I can guarantee you it's not
going to be How much money was in your bank account?

(01:20:23):
How many Vogue covers you shot for you, George?
How many celebrities bought my items?
How many people thought it was agreat idea?
You know it will be none of those things.
It will be the holidays, the moments, the milestones, our
weddings, if we choose, if you choose to have children, you

(01:20:44):
know, all the things that surround your children, the
moments that you spend with the people that you love the most.
And I think you know. Thank you for sharing that this.
Is why we're allowed to want. Weddings so, so, so much for
like not only opening up about your life, but opening up about
Natalia's life. Thank you so much for opening up

(01:21:05):
about everything and being so vulnerable publicly.
It's so hard to do this. No one would.
It's been really no one can understand.
Maybe just a fair few in this earth.
Well, unfortunately not I. Understand can.
Understand to share this right yeah and there's so much more
that you haven't even shared that doesn't need to be shared
but like what I'm trying to say is it's I I'm so grateful that

(01:21:28):
if one person listen to this or 100,000 people listen to this
that it's like they get to just understand a little bit about
kind of. This topic, I think it's
beautiful if you don't understand it.
Yeah, I think that's the ideal thing because before it happened
to me, I would never have understood this either.
I think what I want people to remember is that it's it's all

(01:21:51):
about perspective, you know, celebrate those moments while
they're there. My wedding day was the best day
of my life. You know, one off, sorry, not
the best day of my life, but oneoff.
And so we are in the business ofgiving people incredible
experiences and giving them those moments because I can

(01:22:11):
assure you people don't forget. They will.
They forget a lot of days. They don't forget holidays, they
don't forget weddings, they don't forget births, they don't
forget child's first steps, all of these things.
And so I'm incredibly blessed, and I know we all are, to be in
this industry where it's not always easy, but.
It's worth it. It's so worth it.

(01:22:33):
So what are we if we don't? Not a sum of the enjoyment that
we've created. It's greater than that's.
What I want people to take away from my story, not just feel
sorry for me. It's not to it's, it's not to be
a Hawker or be like, I just wantto know what happened.
It's more just like, just have that profound appreciation for

(01:22:55):
the good times because you can change in an instant.
I'm glad one thing that I like learning from you as a friend.
I'm glad that you chose to kind of take control of your
narrative to not be identified by or known for like certain
kind of periods of your life, not for any other reason, but
just more like there's more to you, there's more to there is

(01:23:18):
life. There's more to like your
business in in that retrospect. I don't know if I'm saying that
right because you kind of explained it to me once before I
and I kind of really appreciate.That I like that it's a choice.
I have to get up every day and Ihave to choose because the
default is to be angry. It's to be so angry and how

(01:23:39):
unfair life has been to my daughter.
That's the default emotion. You have to choose to appreciate
that I'm still here, unfortunately.
Don't say, unfortunately. Well, you know, not
unfortunately, obviously for everyone that loves me, but I'm

(01:23:59):
still here and I have a choice whether to make my existence
somebody a bigger burden on somebody or to relieve some of
their pain and to experience it together.
And so again, this goes back to like I do enjoy celebrating
people's happy moments. It's it's a break and it you do

(01:24:23):
get a bit of a hangover. I won't lie.
You know, there is, you know, you have the high of being happy
for somebody else. And then that's often.
I do need time to recalibrate and kind of step back, go back
into my shell and, and feel my feelings and feel anger.
But I do enjoy being able to be happy for other people and to be

(01:24:46):
a part of that. Yeah.
You're. Such a beautiful soul.
I'm really not. Be both hot.
I. Don't.
And it's been evil up. Those are great people.
We actually are great people. We just joke like this is a
humour we don't understand that we're explaining.
Yeah, we are. Very we said that we should do a
podcast to give. That dark, dark, dark.

(01:25:06):
Humour, but it was more going tobe like something that would get
us. When I did this joke called me
screaming like you're gonna get hands on.
Don't worry, I won't. But we.
Only would have got cancelled ifwe did it together because we're
just. Yeah, yeah.
One together of one episodes together.
But thank you for coming. I you so, so, so much.
I love Charlie, I love the girls.

(01:25:27):
I love everything. I love your parents and.
It goes without saying, thank you for everything you've my.
Goodness, you know you don't thank me, but I'm just so
grateful to have you in my life.Me too, all these years.
Me too. Cheers.

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