A Judges Mistake

This episode covers the death of Ellie Butler.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Laura and I'm Jil and this is divers.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hello everybody, welcome to you today's Patreon episode. Hello everyone,
and welcome back. So Jill, we're in the UK. Well
technically we're actually in the podroom. You said we're we're
in the god room. We're in Scotland, okay, but where
is this episode? We're in the UK and the title

(00:40):
a judge's mistake. Okay, yeah, So I'm just going to
say straight away trigger warning. This is a child murder case.
So I know at all, but I just I think
it because, as I said, like, the title is a
judge's mistake, and I just wanted to sort of highlight
that a judge made a mistake kind of thing, you know,

(01:00):
they're you know, yes, unfortunate. Yes, So shall we dive in.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
Let's dive in.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
So Ellie May Butler was born on the thirtieth of
December two thousand and six. Her mum was Jenny Gray
and her dad was Ben Butler. They had met in
March of that year at her brother's birthday party, so
they started a casual relationship, but after just eight weeks,
Jenny found out that she was pregnant, so as I said,

(01:30):
like they just even though she was pregnant, they just
kind of still carried on sort of casual, you know,
like because I said, they only known each other for
like eight weeks, so time at all a child.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
Yeah, so they weren't like living together or anything like that.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
So so when Ellie was born, like he's like because
they were still seeing each other. And like when Elle
was born, he went to the hospital and he said
that he want to be a part of our life.
And when Jenny and Ellie went home, she she just
lived in a wee onare bedroom flat. He had flat.
He lived like with flatmates. But so you would go
to her house and visit there. Obviously he would wou

(02:02):
would visit them every day. And Jenny said, quote he
was completely devoted, completely in love with the fact that
he was a dad.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
End quote.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
So Jenny's parents, Neil and Linda, they spent spent a
lot of time with Jenny and baby Ella. You know,
they were like first time grandparents. You know, they were
totally devoted. But they hadn't met Ben yet.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
Would have met before.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Then, yeah, I know, like I thought the movie would
have met him at the hospital or.

Speaker 3 (02:27):
Well, fact, you know, I'm pregnant having a baby, and
here's the father.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
Yeah, I think that they would get introduced. You would think,
you would think, but for whatever reasons they didn't. Well,
I don't know. There must have been a reason why,
I suppose or I don't know. I mean, like as
you said, I mean, it was a casual relationship.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
But if you're gonna have a baby with somebody, then you
think you'd at least meet that you're baby's grandparents.

Speaker 3 (02:52):
Oh yeah, because you're obviously be looking to hopefully bring
up the baby all sort of together, yeah, part and stuff,
So you'd want to know who the father is.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
Well, well, for whatever reason, we don't know. So on
the fifteenth of February two thousand and seven, when Ellie
was six weeks old, Jenny dropped her off at Ben's flat. Well,
I kind of sort so she could have a break,
But I did see that another one said she's going
to work, but I thought I was only six weeks old.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
I think she'll probably just just want to rebreak.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
So Ben said in the early evening that he was
playing on his computer and Ellie was in her car.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
Seat, which I kind of kept.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
I mean, I don't really know, but I'm sure you're
not supposed to like leave your child in a car
seat for that longly.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
I I don't think it's something that the advice really Yeah,
I don't think it's good for them as that exactly.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
I mean, it's all right for traveling places, and yeah,
I don't think you're not supposed to length time. I
don't think it's really meant to happen.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
Well, that's where he had her anyway, and he was
he was playing on his computer and he just kind
of turned round to check on her, and she'd like
she'd gone floppy, and she was like sheet white. So
his flatmate drove Ben and Ellie at the hospital. Ellie
had head injuries, including bleeding on the brain, and doctors
suspected that she'd been violent, violently shoot shaken. So the

(04:12):
paid decision called the police and social services and told
him this baby is a shaken baby. And Ellie also
had a burn mark across her forehead and burns on
her on her fingers.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
So Adamant was adamant sorry.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
Ben was adamant that he didn't do anything to hurt
but Ellie. At the hospital, this is when he met
the grandparents. Yeah, and he said to Ellie's granddad, Neil, oh,
I bet you think I've done something, you.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
Know, And Neil was like, well, I don't know. I
don't know you.

Speaker 2 (04:45):
I just got here, Like that's what's saying, Like he
didn't know this guy. This is the first time he's
met him, and the doctors are telling him that his
granddaughter is being shaken whilst in his care.

Speaker 1 (04:57):
So yeah, I think you would probably totally think something's happened,
you know exactly. And then after a couple of.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
Hours, like Ben started to get like a bit aggressive
and he was like swearing everybody and just and he
was just like making a bit of a dick of himself.
You know. These people they were like, oh fuck us,
like they're sucking something special whatever. And Neil said, He's
definitely not a person I would chose it to be
a son in laws.

Speaker 1 (05:19):
So you know, he was like, oh shit, what what
you know? What's my daughter? Kind of got selling any year.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
So Ellie was obviously kept in the hospital and after
five days she was making a good recovery, but meanwhile
a place of investigation and how she got her injuries
was underway, and Ben was arrested on suspicion of g
B eight, and Social Services started proceedings to take Ellie
any care, so she was moved to a different hospital
and her her mum, Jenny, and her grandparents Neil Linda
weren't even allowed to see her. So they were devastating,

(05:49):
of course, but they knew they had to let them
kind of you know, swollow procedure basically, so they knew
that they had to let them take her for now,
but they were obviously determined to get her back. So
Ellie was placed with a foster family and eventually Jenny, Neil, and.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
Linda were allowed regular supervise visits.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
So at first they got to see Ellie once a
fortnite for a couple of hours each time.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
But when they wanted to pick her up, they were
like sort of shadowed.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
They were like every move that they made because they
weren't even there exactly when it happened.

Speaker 3 (06:22):
It wasn't like Ellie was in their care. But yeah,
they almost seemed to be treated the same as.

Speaker 1 (06:27):
If she was. Well that's what they said.

Speaker 2 (06:29):
I mean, they said that they just felt like they
were like criminals or something because they were just get
Every single movie was being watched they had to sign
a book to say that they visited. And you know, like,
obviously with your grandchild, that's not what you're expecting when
your grandchild's gone, is that exactly?

Speaker 1 (06:42):
You should be able to just pick her up whenever
you want.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
And so as time went on though, they did actually
sort of build up like a bit of a friendly
relationship with the foster parents, so things kind of got
a bit more relaxed. So the investigation was still on going,
and Neil the grandparent, Like Neil, I watched a documentary
and the grandfather, Neil, he was kind of the main
person he was speaking on the documentary, so that he's

(07:05):
done it quite a lot. So I just remember he's
the grandparents. And then what keeps saying Neil the grandfather.
So Neil and lind are the grandparents and Jenny's mom
and dad. So the investigation was still ongoing. And Neil
said that if she had kept away from Ben, then
Jenny could have got Ellie back, but she didn't listen
to them.

Speaker 3 (07:23):
A right, So what she was sort of seeing them
whilst yeah, she was, she was still seeing them.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
She wouldn't stay away from him.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
She was still she was having a relations still having
a relationship with him because she didn't believe that he'd
done anything.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
So as the police were.

Speaker 2 (07:36):
Saying that Jenny was standing by Ben, there was also
suspicion of Jenny for failing to protect her daughter. So
Ben seemed to have this a hold over her, and
despite police finding, she continued to stand by him and
protested his innocence.

Speaker 3 (07:50):
Isn't it because it's like you'd think that she would
be fighting tooth and nail to get her daughter back.
As I said at the time, that hasn't happened. Delly
wasn't in her care. She was with her dad exactly.
Ellie was perfectly healthy when she dropped draw exactly. So
to me, I'd be like, well, no, I want my
daughter back. So I'm gonna, like, you know, fight to
the nail because I've not done anything.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
I wasn't even there.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
You know, you do whatever you could, whatever the authorities
were telling you to do, exactly to get your to.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
Get your child back.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
But she was like, no, he's not done anything wrong
and sorry, and like Ben had a string of convictions
in the past. He spent three years in prison for
intimidation and robbery. He had been convicted of assaulting a
previous girlfriend, and he basically just had a violent background.

Speaker 3 (08:38):
Fair enough, Jenny wouldn't have known that when because it
was a casual thing that no very long.

Speaker 1 (08:43):
Obviously.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah, I'm sure she probably she probably hadn't realized all
these backgrounds.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
But I mean now that if this has come to
like the tension of everybody, now you've been thinking, oh right, okay, well,
well you go, I've definitely seen away from you.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah, I want my daughter back because surely, like with
this police investigation, they that, as you said, his convictions
will have come to light, so she didn't know about
them before and then she's going to know about them
now exactly, so that you would think that would make
her be like, right, okay, I didn't realize that this
guy was, you know, because by then she hasn't even
known him for a year, because remember what nine months

(09:16):
pregnant and then a couple of months that they met
for that, so you know, it's barely been a maybe
a year.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, it's just six weeks, so probably around about a
year that.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
You've known each other for exactly, and it's not a
long time you really get to well, I mean, yeah,
you can get to know people. But I mean I
always think that if somebody gets pregnant that early on,
it's a bit hard to have like a normal relationship
because like the with the women being pregnant, which has
all the hormones and everything like that, Yeah, the focus
is going to be on that.

Speaker 3 (09:44):
I mean, like that's kind of the conversations that you
maybe you might have had as you get to know
someone might not necessarily happen because the focus is more on, oh,
we're having a baby, and yeah, these things are happening,
so you kind of maybe don't think to have the
conversations that maybe would have had. Yeah, that's what I mean.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
I just I don't think you can properly get to
know somebody in that situation.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, you know, I mean I didn't.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
If she was unaware of those, well I did, that's
gonna be something that's going to be telling her. But
then you know, like I mean, throughout this research, I've
never seen anything about his friends or his family, A
rending like that because I'm thinking, well, where are they.
It's nobody said to her about his past or just
acquaintances or but then again, because she's been pregnant, she

(10:28):
has maybe not been going out socializing with his friends
and stuff like that.

Speaker 3 (10:31):
That's true if he hadn't met her parents, I mean,
had she met his I don't know.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
I don't know those questions as well. I guess there
was no mention of the other grandparents in it. But
you know, the way i've sort of the research that
I've done was all sort of from Jenny's side of
the family.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
You know, that's yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
I mean, there's obviously another side of the story, I'm
sure from his side, but I haven't seen that.

Speaker 3 (10:56):
So.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
Any research, it's not being available for you. Yeah. So, anyway,
we're about a tangent there.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
So the ex girlfriend described him as poor evil and
told police how he could flip at a moment's notice.
So you know, that's not somebody even you want to
be around. Now, remind your child. But shouldn't have known
that before. But Emma Kenny, who is a psychologist and
works with families and deals with cases of domestic violence
in her clinics, said, quote Ben Butler may be very convincing,

(11:27):
and Jenny may indeed believe that he hasn't done anything wrong,
but the fact that he has these previous convictions should
be alerting her. To the fact that he has should
be left in her to be concerned and most importantly,
her primary objective now should be to look after her daughter,
and that's not what she chooses to do. End quote,
which is pretty much what we just said. But she's

(11:49):
a professional, so I thought i'd quote her. So, where
Ellie's parents been ruled out as long term careers, the
courts awarded temporary custody to.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
Neil and Linda.

Speaker 2 (11:59):
So they were over the moon, but like they were
kind of a bit nervous they had anything to do
with babies, because by this point, Jenny was about thirty
year old, so that they had had anything to do
with babies were you know, yeah, I think she was.
She was rounded about thirty, but you know, like Ellie
was her granddaughter and they want together her best life
as best life they could. So even though Ben and

(12:22):
Jenny I would see Ben and Jenny there, even though
Ben and Jenny were under suspicion of her and Ellie,
they were still allowed supervisor supervised visits to see her.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
So the local authority like put.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
Timelines down for when she was allowed to visit, and
for about eight months this this sort of went on,
but Neil said that like fifty maybe seventy percent at
the time, Jenny never turned up to see her daughter,
so she never turned up and asked for Ben he.
I mean, I would have thought they would have went
together if they're you know, because obviously they're still have
seen each other and whatnot. But he would phone it,

(12:55):
like maybe say seven o'clock at night and say, I
want to come and see my.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
Daughter, and you know, whenever Neil or Linda said no, sorry,
you can't.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
She's you know, she's in bed, Like he'll just start
shouting abuse at them, and we think.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
I mean, I'm not funny, but a very young baby
at that age, they're going to be you know, either
sleeping or you know, getting organized for you wouldn't visitors.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
If you're going to visit the child, it would be
in the daytime, of course.

Speaker 2 (13:20):
And he's just worn up and demand and even though
there's set times, he's worn out with these set times
and demands to see his child, you know.

Speaker 1 (13:29):
So I mean, like they.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
Did write everyone down there, you know, like the dates, times,
four calls. Ever, they were keeping a log of everything
because they knew they were just like, no, this guy
is not fit to be looking.

Speaker 1 (13:38):
After Jenny's not coming across as great to me.

Speaker 2 (13:41):
Well yeah, oh, didn't get me wrong, Like they were
the same with her, like you know, they knew they were,
you know, when it came to Jenny as well, they
were disappointed, you know, like can you believe that she
wasn't coming to see her daughter and stuff. So Ellie
was happy and content, grown up with her grandparents and
in August two thousand and eight they were awarded special guardians,
so they were now her long term cares. They were

(14:04):
both sixty one, and Neil said like having Ellie gave
them a new loose of life and they felt like
she was their own daughter. And she, like he said,
she was like a complete and utter joy to have.
She was very vibrant, cheek, she was always smiling. She
was just a happy kid and they loved her so much.
And so after a lengthy police investigation, Ben was finally

(14:24):
charged with inflicting grievous bodily harm on Ellie. He denied
the charges and went on trial, and on the twenty
fourth of March twenty and ninety was found guilty and
he was sentenced to eighteen months in prison. So while
he was inside Jenny gave birth to another baby. Oh
and again he was the father. It was his yeah, right,

(14:46):
because they were as it was worse actually okay, I
was like, really, so you can't even look after the
child that you've got and then you're having another. To me,
didn't show any interest in her daughter.

Speaker 3 (14:57):
Wasn't willing to fight for her b I was not
willing to almost untarnish herself from the same brush that
she's been charged with because of well Ben, and yet
she goes and gets pregnant again, has another one.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
I mean, and I get, I get why you thought
this was a young girl. Yeah, because you know, I
don't mean, I mean, there's plenty of young people who are,
you know, great parents, But you think by the time
you get to thirty, if you're in a situation like that,
then you would think you'd maybe have a bit more
sense than Yeah. It's so just yeah, it just it

(15:33):
does sound like the actions of somebody a lot younger. Well,
as I said, I you know, I don't want to
be a fending anybody, because a lot of people are
great parents when they're younger, but they're sensible and whatnot.
But obviously not for her. She's like thirty odd year
old and so get ten of them. The baby was
taking into care. Yeah, so I don't know anything about
the baby, whether I don't even know whether it was

(15:54):
a girl or a boy or anything like that. It
was just just for protection, you know, their added identities
kept quite all the rest of it. So I'll refer
to that child later just as the sibling because.

Speaker 1 (16:09):
I don't know what, I don't know what to call them.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
So so, yeah, that baby was taken into care. So
again it's like, well, why are you having having another
baby when it's just gonna get taken into care, Like
you know that the care systems already like phil with
you know, kids trying to find whole.

Speaker 3 (16:24):
Then I just don't understand it in the first place
of why you well, I mean it may not have been.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
A planned one, I suppose, but yeah, of course, I
mean I'm not saying it like if.

Speaker 3 (16:34):
You're you know, you're obviously you've already got a child
that you don't have and you're supposed to be trying
to get back.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
But oh, we'll just replace that child then maybe. Oh
kind of to me, it's like kind of be bothered
trying to get that one back. So we'll just have
another one, not realizing that that one is going to
get taken into care.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
Maybe I don't know.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
So Ben launched an appeal against his conviction, and Jenny
was still protesting, he's innocent and sorry, and like she
would write to people, you know, whoever she thought, like
people probably MP's and whatnot, you know, as people do.
She was writing to these people who thought would be
able to help. And in June twenty ten, Ben's conviction
was quashed and he was no sorry, he was no

(17:15):
longer responsible for Ellie's injuries.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
Okay, who was then?

Speaker 2 (17:21):
Well exactly. I think they must have just ruled it
as accident or something. I don't understand how you can
go from this was a shaking baby to whatever.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
Convicted somebody for it and they, oh no, actually that wasn't. Yeah,
I don't. I have no idea, because you know, we're
not experts. Well you know, if we were, I mean,
that's a case. Every case is different.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
So so that really the ruling that him and Jenny
were unfit to care for her still stood though, so
they were like still classes unfit parents, but they.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
The injury. It wasn't responsible for the injuries ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
So they wanted their daughter back, and they were granted
legal aid and the case against them was re examined.
So Neil and Linda, they were like, n canna go
back to them, you know, So they decided decided to
fight for her. And because when they knew it was
best for Ellie, like they knew that she couldn't go
back to live with them, so they had to use

(18:15):
their life savings. They obviously didn't qualify for legal age,
so they had they used their life savings to pay
their legal fees. So and Neil said, quote, the local
authority were fighting against Butler. We were fighting against Butler.
Every way we turned, we seemed to have another fight
in our hands. It was unsettling for Ellie. It was
unsettling for us because we were getting older. We just

(18:35):
couldn't live a normal, quiet family life.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
End quote. Which is.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
That must be that especially at their age as well,
you know, they're in their sixties and the last thing
you want is to be having a legal battles using
all your life savans, fighting against your your own daughter.

Speaker 1 (18:51):
It must be Yeah, it must be absolutely awful.

Speaker 2 (18:55):
So again arrangements were put into place for Jenny and
Ben to visit Ellie under supervision, but they showed no interest.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
In seeing her. So it's like, well, why do you
want her back then if you're not.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
I mean, there were arrangers for him to go, you
know how you get those like family centers, So that's
what the arrangements were to go there. So but for
two and a half years, neither of them turned up here.
So every week Neil and Linda would take take Ellie
there every week and but not once did either of
our parents turn up.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
I mean, what are you doing?

Speaker 3 (19:27):
I just don't understand, like what's going on in their
heads at this point?

Speaker 2 (19:32):
To me, I think, I mean, I don't know if
we'll kind of I can't remember, if we'll kind of
get that later. But my opinion is, is his ego,
Ben Butler's ego, he's not he's not fighting for his daughter.
He's fighting against Jenny's parents. He wants to win that fight,
you know, And it's not really he doesn't get a
sh Ellie.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
It's not Ellie that's thinking of.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
He just he's got this massive ego and he wants
to prove that he can do it kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (19:58):
And if you were genuinely wanted to get back. Of
course you would. It's just interesting.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
Make it makes sense, like if you want her back
and see her and make an effort, and you'll probably
get back a lot quicker as well.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
Exactly.

Speaker 3 (20:12):
People would see that you were making effort and you
look like you were doing a great job and everything
was all good, then you have got a hell of
a chance. But you're going to turn up then yeah, right,
I really have. You got to be fighting for fighting
for her, really, that's what I think. It's all about
his ego.

Speaker 2 (20:27):
So but like, yeah, to the outside world, Ben presented
the image of our wronged father, you know, because he
had this conviction, course didn't he.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
So he was like.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
He launched like a high profile media campaign like well
look at me, I'm the wronged the wrong father and
all this shit. So and that meant that because of that,
it meant that Neil and Lunda found themselves having to
defend the way that they were caring for Ellie because
Ben was telling anyone that would listen that they weren't
looking after her properly. You know, that they didn't clothe
her properly, they didn't feed her properly, like they never

(20:59):
took her on holiday or ending like that, which I
don't see the problem. You don't have to take your
childs on the holidays, but you know, to me, that's
not a big deal. As long as the child is
loved and fed and water do not, you don't need
to take them on holidays. Well that's all very that,
but you have taken her holiday exactly. But none of
that was true anyway. I mean, I've see I seen
home videos of her, like she's she had a trampoline
in the garden, and.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
So when she was older, she was jumping on that.

Speaker 2 (21:22):
And there's like because you actually see videos over from
when she was a baby, when she's a toddler, you know,
and she's grown up a bit, and she had a
paralleling pool and she shet.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
You could see she was a happy child and.

Speaker 2 (21:35):
Like she would our friends would come around to place,
she would go around to their houses. Just when she
started school, she did like loss of after school activities.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
She was just living a normal, happy life.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
And you can tell even just when I'm seeing those
little clips on the home videos, you can see that
you can see that her hair was nicely brushed, she
was well, you know, she was dressed properly.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
You could see she wasn't.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
Starving, you know, So he was just doing end any
kid just to sounds like it. So the court is
called in a team of private social workers to consider
how contact between Ellie and our parents should progress. So
on the twelfth of October twenty twelve, after two years
of legal wrangling, the High Court Family Division was was

(22:13):
to decide the future of Ellie and her sibling. So
Neil and Linda had already spent seventy nine thousand pounds
and they had no money left, so they couldn't even
like go and sort of fighter. They can't afford representation,
so they went to the court as observers. So Neil
was actually surprised when he was called to the witness box.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
He didn't realize he was going to be getting called.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
So Ben and Jenny's lawyer said to him, you don't
like your daughter, mister Butler, do you? Or mister or sorry,
you don't like your daughter or mister Butler, do you?
And Neil said no, I don't know, and he said
he was then asked why I didn't like them, and
he said, quote, I hate them from the bottom of
my heart for what they did. To my granddaughter, they
shook her end quote. So as I said, you know,

(22:59):
they weren't. They were classing them both together. You know,
there was they weren't sticking up for their daughter. And
they knew they you know, because they could say that
she wasn't doing anything to Yeah, and the fact that yes,
she didn't shake the baby because she wasn't there. I
think just because she was siding with with Ben. Yes. So,

(23:22):
after hearing all the evidence, including a play by Ben
and a recommendation from the private social workers, Lady Justice
Hogg told the court her decision. She said that she
was taking away the special guardianship and she was sending.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
Elliott back to her parents. Yep, she said, Yeah, I'll
tell you what she said.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
She said because it was because his conviction of GBH
on Ellie had been quashed. She declared a miscarriage of justice.
And she described Ben as a reflectful and thoughtful individual.
She doesn't know this guy, she's the judge, Like, what
does she know about him?

Speaker 3 (24:00):
And did she not looked at his previous king about them?
That's what she would know about I'm surely because she'd
know about all his previous convictions.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
Oh, it's just I mean, she's declared that. Mister was
not expecting that.

Speaker 1 (24:12):
Yeah. She. So Neil spoke to the judge and said, quote.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
Well, I hope you and all your colleagues and your
professionals here have a conscience because one day you may
have blood on your hands with regards to my granddaughter Ellie,
and I would and I would like it to be
noted end quote.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
So he want that put down and fell that that's
what he said.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
He knew that they shouldn't be sending her by she
she wasn't going to be safe. A week later, on
the nineteenth of October twenty twelve, Benny and Benny, so
that would be their name.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
Ben and Jenny would be there, you know.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
Ben and Jenny appeared on the TV program this morning,
so Amon and Ruth were hosting, and Amon asked Ben
how he felt about people still accusing him of Harmony's
daughter even though you'd been cleared, and Ben just he
was kind of mumbling, so I think quite catch what
he said, but he said something along the lines of
there's no smoke without fire with certain people, and it

(25:06):
took to pretty much last month to clear my name completely.
And Amon then asked Jenny if she ever had any doubts,
and she said none whatsoever. And you know, like when
people are like on the telly and they're being interviewed,
it'll say like their name, and there's maybe something underneath
just to let you know who they are or whatever.
And it said under their name, under both the name,
it said both wrongly accused of child cruelly. That's what

(25:26):
it said underneath. So they obviously well, I mean.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
He did have it quashed, so yeah, by law, I
guess they.

Speaker 2 (25:36):
Yeah, so they're going on this TV program to say,
look at us, we've been wrongly confused, we've been wrongly convicted.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
And I thought, shut up, what are you doing? And
he just like, oh, you just got one of their
faces just what punched?

Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah, So I just started see a week clup of
the interview, and Ben gave his version, gave his version
of events of the night that Ellie was rushed to hospital,
and it was it was basically just a look at us,
we're cause of this, but they were wrong. We're insign
you know, that's why else would you be on this morning.
So Emma Kenny, you know the psychologist that I talked

(26:11):
about earlier. She said about the appearance.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
Quote.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
This is about Butler seeing the world as his stage.
He wants everyone to know that he is the wrong father.
He's acting a role. And the really sad part here
is that this isn't about the needs of Ellie whatsoever.
This is all about his ego. And that's what's so
dangerous about Ben Butler. Quote see I said that, That's
probably why I said. That is probably what she.

Speaker 1 (26:33):
Said, going to lie like.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
So, Neil and Linda, they were in complete shock that
they were going to have to hand Ellie back to
their to her parents, and Neil said it was like
his life had caved in. They spent nearly six years
looking after this little.

Speaker 3 (26:51):
Girl, would have been so used to living with them as.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
Well well exactly.

Speaker 2 (26:55):
I mean, you know, they loved her, she loved them
like that, that was her family.

Speaker 1 (27:00):
I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
I mean, I'm assuming she knew because she was supposed
to be seen her parents all these so I'm assuming
she knew that they were her grandparents.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
But they would have been her mom and dad, like
you know, and.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
Like the thought to keep her because they wanted her,
they wanted to bring her up, you know, and the
way that she deserved that. Any child, you know, deserves
to be brought up. So as for Ellie, I mean,
I can't imagine how that would feel for her. I mean,
you know, she was six and as you said, like
that's all she's known. She's grown up with her grandparents.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
I'm just thinking about now.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
But you know, imagine like that, imagine if you weren't
her parents, so you were acting like her parents, so
you are like treating her as your own, and.

Speaker 1 (27:49):
Can you imagine.

Speaker 2 (27:49):
I mean, I'd be obviously bad for you as well,
But I'm just like, she's six, like Ellie, how confusion
must that be?

Speaker 1 (27:57):
And she would know and she would absolutely devastating.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
Well I'm going to quote Emma Kenny again and she said,
quote imagine Ellie, she's grown up, no Neil and Linda
as her parents, and essentially to rip her from that
sense of safety and security and love and to place
her with relative strangers that would be developmentally devastating and
psychologically disastrous. It was almost as if all the way

(28:24):
through this process, no nobody was thinking about Ellie. Everybody
was thinking about Butler. The only people who were caring
about her voice were the people that she was being
taken from end quote, which that is they were the
ones who cared about Ellie. But throughout the process, all
the professionals and whatnot, it just seemed to be they
were thinking about him and he wanted his daughter back,
so they were doing what they could to get his

(28:45):
daughter back. They weren't thinking about the actual the daughter
and Ellie. She didn't want to go back to her
birth birth parents. She didn't know them, she hadn't seen them,
but by this point she hadn't seen them for nearly
three years. She doesn't even know them exactly. But there
was just nothing that could be done that, you know.
The judge had made her decision. And on the ninth
of November twenty twelve, which is the day Ellie was

(29:08):
taking back to her parents, social workers arrived first thing
in the morning and they.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
Said, we're taking Ellie school, and Linda was like, we're not.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
She was like, I'm getting Ellie washed and dressed, I'm
giving Ellie our breakfast, and then I'm taking her to
school and my husbands coming with me, which I thought,
quite right, Linda.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
You know it's her last morning with you.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
Exactly, why should the social workers be taking out of school?
You know you should be getting to do that this
one time. So on the documentary that I watched, Neil
started crying at this point, which I did. I teared up,
and he said, quote, we went to school and we
were warned that we were not allowed to say where
she was going or what she was going to do,
and we weren't allowed to say goodbye end quote.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
What So Elle didn't even know that she was not
going to be coming back to them that day.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
No, I'll get onto that in a minute. So Linda
and Neil told Ella that they loved her and they
were I'd always be there for her, and they would
always be Nana and Granddad, and Ellie said, I love
you Nana and Granddad very much. She walked at the gates,
turned around and wave to them, and like she kept
blowing them kisses, and I was like.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
Oh mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
So I was like, you know, like they obviously knew
that she was laving that day, but Ellie didn't. I mean,
Ellie knew that she was going back to her parents,
but she didn't know it was that day. So the
social workers told Ellie that she was going for a
sleepover at her parents, which I thought was really shit,
I thought. So you're just saying, oh, you're you're only
going to stay for one night, and she's probably thinking, oh,
I don't want to go, but it's only one night,

(30:33):
I'll be back tomorrow. Like you know, she was near
six years old, and she probably didn't eve want to
go for one night there never you know. And then
once she was going to get there, she was going
to find out that she wasn't going home. That's absolutely discussing.
That's actually heartbreaking. It is she thought that Neil and
Lunda were going to pick her up from school the
next game day and she'd be going home with them.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
I don't know why they thought that was a good
idea idea.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
No, I was absolutely That's what I mean, Like Ellie
just does not seem to be thought of, like her
feelings and whatnot.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
That just doesn't seem to be thought at all.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
So Ellie and her sibling were now both living with
the parents because the sibling taken back as well, and
they appeared to the outside world to be a normal,
happy family. So David Swindle, who's a former detective superintendent,
said about Ben quote, he's playing happy families. He's someone
that puts a front up that everything is good, but
in reality, he's a violent individual. He's short tempered and

(31:30):
he can't control his actions.

Speaker 1 (31:32):
End quote.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
And as I saw a video of Ben playing with
Ellie and the parkway a ball. They're just kind of
throwing a ball and kicking at Ben and stuff. And
I'm sure I think Jenny must have Jenn it must
been Jenny that was taking a video because you can
hear you can hear her kind of going go on Ellie,
you know, and like laughing and cheering her on. So
that does look like a perfectly happy family. However, there's
another video clip recorded seemingly by accident inside the family home,

(31:56):
and that showed the darker side of Ben. You can
see Ellie standing in the kitchen and she's got a
and Ben a shout in and it sounded like because
I could only hear the audio because you can see
Ellie and it says, don't ask me to do something
that you ain't fucking done and then sort it out. Now,
fuck off to a six year old, we're a black eye.

(32:20):
So Neil and Ellenda they visited Ellie whenever Jenny allowed them,
which was I don't think it was very often, and
on the twenty seventh of October twenty thirteen, they raged
meet to meet at a McDonald's, so they took some
cake and some sweets and the wee bagg of goodies.
I think the sybiling was there as well, I think,
but it wasn't, you know, because the documentary was about Ellie.
So I think they took like sweeties and stuff along

(32:41):
for both of them. And Neil said when they saw
Ellie they were in utter disbelief. She had odd shoes on,
odd socks, her trousers were really crinkly, her coat was dirty,
and her hair was a mess and every so Neil
took Neil said, can I take some photos to Jenny?
And Jenny was like, oh, yeah, whatever, I can't bothered anymore,

(33:03):
so okay. So I think he probably took the photos
because yeah, if we needed them later on. So but
then there was room there for like twenty minutes, and
Jenny was right, we have to go. So as they
were walking away, Linda shouted, I love you Ellie, and
she turned around and said I love you too, Nana
and Granddad, and she just kept turning around and waving

(33:25):
and geting them kisses and every him and they haven't
seen her in about six weeks, so obviously, but unfortunately
that was the last time that they ever saw.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
So the last time they saw was her waving and
blone kisses.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
So the next day it was the day after that,
the twenty eighth October twenty thirteen, at two forty six pm,
the emergency services received a frantic nine niney nine call
from Ben. I heard the coll because it was on
the documentary. And when the operator answered and said hello,
no one answered, but I'm sure I heard a child
saying shouting, wake up, So I think it was a

(33:57):
child anyway, so I'm thinking maybut the sibling. So the
operator said hello again and then Ben was like, hello,
can you hear me? And the operator said yes, and
she shouted down the phone and like he shouted down
the phone, but the way that even shouted down the phone,
I was like, I know, people are different. But he
was like, my daughter, it is not breathing properly, you know,

(34:19):
as if like it was like.

Speaker 1 (34:21):
Angry, you know, it was like that.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
Okay, So he said, I she's not breathing properly, she's
not moving, and I need to get you. I need
to get an ambulance to the home, so paramedics arrived
with him minutes.

Speaker 1 (34:34):
Ellie was blue and.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
Cold to the touch, and she was rushed to hospital,
but at four one pm she was pronounced dead, so
a policeman women went to Neil and Linda's house to
tell them. Before the police women even had a chance
to see anything, Linda went, it's not Ellie, is it.
They just knew, they knew, They just knew that, they
knew all alone that she wasn't safe with her pants.

(34:56):
As soon as they saw that police women, they were like, yeah,
something's happened.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
Just yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
So Elliot had suffered catastrophic skull and brain injuries. Ben
was arrested on suspicion of murder. When questioned he and
I doing anything to her Ellie, they put on the
crocodile tears and dead things like, oh, I can't believe
you think I would do that, Like in place where
they were building up a picture of a troubled and
abusive relationship between Ben and Jenny.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
Jenny continued to stand by Ben.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
She's she's seen being questioned by the place and she's
crying and I saw her saying, quote, I just don't
know what's happened here. And all I can say to
you is I don't believe Ben done that. I don't
believe Ben's done anything to her. And the reason I
don't believe that is I've got no reason to think that.
If there's ever anything I'd ever seen, anything I've ever thought,

(35:47):
I would say so.

Speaker 1 (35:48):
And I don't have, and I don't have. I don't have, And.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
I'm telling you my opinion. If I ever had any
reason to think someone had done that to my child,
I'd do everything, end quote exactly. I'm just like, but
you haven't got any reason. I'm sorry, But when your
daughter was six weeks old and she was rushed the
hospital and shaken, Yeah, and your boyfriend was actually convicted
of it. They might have been quashed afterwards, but it

(36:13):
was convicted of it. So you've got no reason. What
plant are you on it? But diaries written by Jenny
told a different story. And these diaries documented life inside
an abusive household. So entry said things like, I put
you before everything. Stop being angry and hateful and violin.

(36:33):
I feel like you hate me and it hurts so much.
According to a Daily Mail article, text messages revealed the
Torrent of verbal abuse which Ben regularly unleashed on Jenny,
often in relation to Ellie. But yet she remained so
desperate to be loved by him that she even serves
the Internet for magic spells, which she hoped would turn
him into a caring man. OK, yeah, I know so,

(36:55):
Emma Kenny said.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
Quote.

Speaker 2 (36:56):
Jenny may well have felt that Ben Butler had power
over her for a long time in our relationship. She
may have suffered violence, It may have been an abusive situation.
But the moment he murders her own little girl, to
not then sign from the rooftops of his guilt, to
not seek the punishment he's absolutely deserved as unimaginable. Instead,
she covers for him.

Speaker 1 (37:15):
End quote. Ben Butler was charged with murder and.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
Jenny was charged with child cruelty and preventing the course
of justice. On the day on the first day of
the trial, which was the nineteenth of April twenty sixteen, unfortunately,
Linda died.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
Jenny's Mumlnda.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
She died after a long battle of a cancer, so
Poreneil had to go through this trial alone. But Jenny
wasn't actually told her mum's death because they must have
just wanted the trial to go ahead and not have
that stolet. Yeah, So she wasn't told about it, and
the trial took place as planned. So the jury was

(37:51):
told that the abuse abuse stemmed from Ben's frustration as
he stayed home to look after Ellie while Jenny went
out to work. So he was stuff that he was
looking after because he was probably a lazy bastard.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
I do not know.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
I think like she was the bread when around.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
Maybe he can.

Speaker 3 (38:13):
I don't know, there's no point in again, because he
was like maybe I should be like, yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
I know, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
So according to one of the journalists in court, she
said that Ben just swore to everybody, the judge, the prosecution.
He would be shouting abuse about the police, about medical experts,
and he said she treated like he was.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
In the pub, like he was just like a big glagger,
like you know.

Speaker 2 (38:36):
She said he was cold and callous and cocky and arrogant,
and all his evidence was calculated to try and.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
Pull the will over the juror's eyes.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
His version of what happened the day that Ellie died
was that Ellie had been jumping on a bed copying
a pepper pig cartoon and had somehow fallen off the
bed and hit her head. But the postmart and revealed
that Ellie's injuries were so severe they were unlikely to
be accident. The real truth emerged that her injuries were
like an impact of crashing at eighty.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
Miles an hour in a car.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
Neil said that half of her skull was completely crushed
and our brains had spilled out. So how can you
that's not going to happen from me jumping on a
bed and calling off. So it was put to Ben
that he must have either hit Ellie or hit her
off a wall or something like that, you know, But
of course she denied it. So it's it's not known
exactly what happened how she got her injuries. But when

(39:28):
Ellie was lying on the floor almost certainly dead, instead
of calling nine niney nine, Ben phoned Jenny at work,
She got a taxi home, and then they spent the
next hour or more covering the whole thing up, and
then they phoned nine nine nine and pretended that she
was still alive, because remember in the call, Ben had
said that she wasn't breathing properly, but in reality she
was most likely dead by them. So the jury didn't

(39:49):
believe Ben's version of events, and he was found guilty
of murder and sent it to life with a minimum
of twenty three years. Jenny was sent it us to
three and a half years for child cruelty and a
better in the course of justice. So Neil says, Jenny
is no longer his daughter, so he's alone. Now he's
lost his wife, he's lost his daughter, and he's lost
his granddaughter. Well, see, I don't, as I said, because

(40:13):
I don't really know anything about it. I don't he's
never I don't know why she that. I don't why,
I said she because I don't know if it's a
boy or girl. I don't know why that sibling wasn't
put into their care. I don't know, I said, Because
this case is about Ellie. Yeah, So he wrote a
letter to Lady Justice Hog which said, quote, Dear Justice Hog,

(40:34):
to say that Ellie's death has caused complete and our
devastation to us. As an unders understatement, Ellie was her
shining light. She was a beautiful, bubbly, intelligent little girl
who always had a smile on her face. It would
be helpful if you could acknowledge our family pain and anguish,
support the need for an inquiry, and just simply say sorry.
Neil Gray, grandparent of Ellie Butler end quote. But the

(40:57):
judge refused to apologize, and all she said was quote,
it's not personal. And as for Ellie's siblings, they were
taken into care and the carers took notes like when
they first got there, but some pieces that the child said.
So the sibling had said, quote, really bad at mummy

(41:18):
and Daddy's house, got smacks. They also said that when
they weed or pulled, their head was put down the
toilet and flushed. They spoke of Ben hurt and Ellie
and smacking our and they also said my house is
a bad house. And they were savagely beaten in the
days before Ellie's death. So it wasn't just Ellie that
was being abused, it was both of them. But obviously

(41:40):
Ellie was the one who was killed. The child had
been left deeply traumatized and started just saving therapy straight away.

Speaker 1 (41:47):
I kind of find out.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
What happened to the sibling, but I'm assuming that they
were fostered and hopefully adopted and a.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
Good loving family. But isn't that absolutely awful.

Speaker 3 (42:01):
I just said, what what what comes to mind is
that nobody seemed to have Ellie's best interest at her
except the grandparents, and.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
They they did what they could. They spent seventy thousand
pounds fighting to get her back, you know, they were
writing and what they said unfortunately that.

Speaker 2 (42:18):
They knew that if she went back to her parents,
then she wasn't going to be safe. I mean, I
don't know if they kind of thought it was going
to be that bad, you know, I mean, but they
knew that she wasn't going to be an a loving
home getting treated properly. So I'm not a judge who,
but I think she like I think somebody said on
or when I was something that I read was that

(42:40):
she was probably just charmed by him. He's obviously this
guy that could charm people and clearly h So.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
There you go.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
There's your Patreon for this month, So thank you for listening, and.

Speaker 1 (42:52):
We'll buy back next month. Yet back.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
Then, do

Speaker 2 (43:09):
The