Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Laura and Antel and this is Hello everybody.
(00:23):
Welcome today's episode. Hello, welcome back, Welcome back, everybody. I'm
excited for a not an episode today. So we're in
the Army. We are in Australia down Under.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Yeah, I don't go there very often. Yeah, no, I'm
talking about on the podcast. But I said I don't
go there very often. I went on, like my cases,
I haven't really been in Australia. I thought you meant
like actually physically going here.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Well, considering you're my sister, that you wouldn't known if
i'd been there. Yeah, that was a bit thumb.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, okay, sorry in your podcast, say I haven't been
there more than you. Yeah, I think you've been there
a couple of times.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Oh I went there.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I have been there, yeah, because I think they were
the family Lies one, remember the circus.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
One that was Australia. Yeah, that's true. Well, a little change,
yeah from our usual. So and has it got a title? Oppositely,
but what is the title? It's called a Suicidal Fantasy,
an interesting interesting title.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yeah, it might little, it might get a little bit
confusing with the You're not going to confuse me, Well,
I kind of. I kind of found it a bit
confusion with the suicide bit. But we'll get into that
and you'll understand what's we get into. Shall we just
dive in there, Let's dive in, Let's go. So a
New Sing was born in India on the third of
(01:44):
September nineteen seventy two to Indian Australian parents. When Anu
was one, they moved to Sydney and they settled in
the suburb of Strathfield. She was a happy, go lucky child,
but she did have some attachment issues. She attended a
Catholic high school and graduated in nineteen ninety. In nineteen
(02:05):
ninety one, she moved to Canberra to attend the Australian
National University to study for a double degree in economics
and law. But she ended up using recreational drugs and
she was missing her parents because you know, as I said,
she had attachments, and she ended up defer in her
studies for a.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Year to go home to Sydney.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Right.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
And it's a bit sketchy kind of between now and
nineteen ninety five, because I'm not she was back studying
for her loss. I'm not actually sure if it was
just a year that she took off order, she took
more time. I don't know what she was doing which
took her time off. But in nineteen ninety five she
met Joe Chinkwi. I think that's how you presents. I'm
(02:50):
not too sure. Hopefully that's right.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
She was back studying for her.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Law degree and they met on a night out in Newcastle,
New South Wales, which is where he was from, and
they started her early ship. So Joe's parents they were
Italian and that's why that's a name that I couldn't
really pronounce. And it worked hard to build a life
in Australia. Joe was a good kid. He did well
(03:14):
at school and in sports. He was an extravert. He
was full of life and a part of the people
were just drawn him. He graduated from university with a
degree in civil engineering and it didn't take him long
to get a job in his hometown.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
So by nineteen ninety six, Joe, where what happened?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Because you're not seeing what I'm sious. Yea, I'm obviously
reading this right, so I was about to say. By
nineteen ninety six, Joe and Annaw's relationship was getting more serious.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
But if.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Because Andrew's name was spelled au.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
So Andw's has got an S on the end of it.
So does that spell? In?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
What I'm reading is by nineteen ninety six Joe and
in its relationship?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Oh my god, you're in our child just coming, wasn't
it you? I'm sorry, child childish?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
So, Joe and Annie's relationship was getting more serious, and
to their friends, they had seemed perfectly happy with each.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Other to start with.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
However, as time more on, friends and families start to
notice that perhaps the relationship wasn't all it seemed to be.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
So.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
One of Joe's friends, Robert He said that Annie was
confident and dominant, but he actually found her a little
bit strange. The first time he met her at a
dinner party, she had talked about her previous relationship and
how intense it had been. Now, you know, that's your
boyfriend's friend and you're talking.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
About your ex. That's just weird.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
Yeah, I mean unless you actually knew them, and then
I don't see why you would bring them up in conversation.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, that's just I wouldn't do that, especially, I wouldn't
do that. And in her work she said to him
that her Neurecs had been so close that it was
almost incestuous.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Now that's a very weird thing to saying. I don't
really understand that, because you're supposed to be close to.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Your partner, Yeah, but why but not as close as
you would like. It's a different closest to what you
would be with a family member, because it's not the
same closest, is it? I mean, so how would it
be Also, how I could understand that if that was
said the other way around, if you were that close
to your brother it was almost incestuous. Yeah, but not
(05:35):
your partner, No, because you meant to be that. It
meant to be like that, Yeah, you know you meant
to be. So how how can that be described as
almost incestuous?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Because how close are you to your actually to your family? Like,
I mean, unless she just maybe she didn't realize what
she was.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Saying, or well, she's meant to be a bright person
and she's a law university studying law and economics, Like yeah,
I just I found that a very weird thing to say.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
I just I didn't understand that. I mean, I don't
wouldn't would have to me.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
It sounds like what she's saying it because she's saying
that they had been so close and it was intense.
It must have it just must have been a really
intense relationship. So I don't know where I don't know
why the word ancestuous came into. Yeah, I wouldn't have
described it in that way describe well no, no, no,
So yeah, so that was strange. Yes, So Robert said
(06:31):
he didn't know how to react to that, obviously, and
he could see that neither Joe. Joe must have you know,
been in the conversation or overheard it, well because they
were at a dinner parties, right, yeah, and he said,
he said, Joe didn't say anything, but he was clearly uncomfortable, which, yeah,
if my boyfriend boyfriend partner was talking about there is
(06:55):
to start away.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Never mind saying oh, it was really intense and it
was almost ancestrious something that's appropriate, you know what I mean,
when you're in a relationship. I don't think it's really
appropriate to talk about X a bit.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I mean in some contexts, yeah, yeah, like I mean
some things you know, you can you know, if they
were there and it was like a holiday or a
memory or something, that's fine.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
But when it comes to actual relationship. I don't think
you can talk about No, you don't need to discuss
the relationship. Yeah, you can discuss things that may have
like you may have done.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Together, Yeah you are on holiday together, or maybe you've
had children together. Obviously you know their name is probably
going to come the actual lot of relationship.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
The state is of the relationship, like how it was
and yeah, like that.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
That is a missay sign of it that you don't
need to discussed that with the current partner. And I
don't I think that's no.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Is it appropriate?
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Oh yeah, it's totally inappropriate, and especially at a dinner
party where his friends are at like.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Well, yeah, that's not really good imprecious making? Is it? No?
Not really? So Robert, this guy, Robert.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
He said that Anne has struck him as someone who
was always looking for a reaction and that she liked
to shock and make an impression. So that's why she's
saying it. That's why because she wants to make him prison.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
She wants that reaction. Yeah, but I mean there are
other things that you could say that would yeah over yeah,
you know, because they're just not for cruit things.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
So he also said that Annie was always in the
foreground leading the discussion, which were.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Very discussions, were very weird at times, and Joe was
always in the background, and this wasn't the Joe that
he knew grew up well, I mean, he knew that
Joe really well.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
His Joe's parents were Roberts godparents, so obviously you know
they've known each other.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, so he obviously you know it's Joe really well.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
And Joe's parents they also noticed that they just that
he did. Sorry, he just didn't see hisself anymore. His
dad said that when they had family get togethers, as
soon as Annie saw Joe talking to his dad, she
would come over and interrupt and like, take Joe away
from the conversation.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Now, that's just rude.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
If that was Joe's dad, I'd be like, no, so
I was talking to my son exactly, remember, yes, so no,
and I'd be having a word with Joe.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Say no, we're in the middle of conversation. No, you're
not walking away from me. That's just a bit disrespectful.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I mean, I always think I was find it weird
when people are disrespectful to their partner's parents.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
You, I know, you can't like you don't have to
be like their best friends or necessarily.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Get on with them great, but I think you need
to be like very respectful, respectful. Yeah, exactly, just just
be respectful. You don't have to be their best friends.
You don't have to get on with them brilliantly, because
you know, you can't choose your in laws obviously, but
you know you can be polite and respectful and you know,
just I just it's rude.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, yeah, taking your partner away from any conversation that
they're having is rude.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
So but never mind their parents, like I just find
out really disrespectful.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
And Joe's mum said that she got annoyed because she
would make because Joe was still living at home at
this point, and.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
So Joe would go to.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Work and his mum would make him his dinner from
coming home from work every night. And I knew that,
and she knew that they ate at six o'clock every night.
But yeah, she would phone them at six o'clock or
you know, maybe just after sex and would chat to
for an hour on the phone.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
So why is she not saying, you know, going like
for me back because I mean by dinner. Well, I
think maybe because he was under the thumb because that
be comes to me.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
That's why I'd like, look, you know, I mean that's
what I'm seeing. I'll get your name back when I finished.
And then most people and then surely she would get
the hint because or or I would just not be
answering my phone. But then when was it ninety nights
in the nineties, wasn't it so, I mean, mobiles weren't
as advanced of they are now, so maybe not everybody
had mobile phone.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
No, she was. I think she was phoning high phone.
I think, yeah, so I suppose you can't just ignore
it because it could have been anybody.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Well yeah, but well yeah, I just but I think
the relationship was that she was like dom dominating and
maybe maybe it could be a sort of form of
abuse really that he knew that if he didn't answer
the phone and he didn't talk to him, maybe it
just wasn't worth it.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
What their what it was, how she was going to
react or something, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
I don't I'm still rue it is it's rude. And
I said she was doing it every night, like and
you know, he would stop eating to be on the phone.
But jose my mother was lad enough and she would
take the phone off them until Annie to stop calling
where she.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Knew they were having.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Dinner because you know that that was their family time
where they would sit and you know, discuss their day
and just spent.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
A bit of time together. So I mean I can't understand.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
You know, once or twice she's phone, I went, oh, well,
I'm really really sorry. But once you know that that's
when they're having their dinner. If that's the same every night, mm,
then do that.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
I stn't do that?
Speaker 4 (11:53):
You wait for could his sake? What what's what's the
problem of just waiting like an hour or or just
saying that, you know, can you give me a ring
when I when you finish it?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Exactly, So to me, yeah, I mean that's definitely like
it's like a control thing and abuse thing or something.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
You know, she's doing it on purpose because she can't. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
And for whatever reason, Joe's not you know, he's not
standing up and said no, that's that's not on.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, well you know, if it isn't it like an
abusive relationship.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
But you know he feels like he can't.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
So with Annie studying in Canberra and Joe living in Newcastle,
which is two hundred and one miles away. The long
distance relationship was becoming strained, so after months of pressure,
Joe finally gave in and agreed to move.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
To Canberra to begin a new life with Ane there.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
So, to me, that's just red flanks again, Like after
months of pressure he gave in, So obviously she was
pressurizing him to move.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Yeah, like he obviously didn't really want to, but he's
obviously feeling like he's had to.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
I mean, they do they still going study and stuff for.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
No, he was working when he musteral engineer, so I'm
assuming he must have got got a job. So Joe
hope that it would help their relationship and it would
get stronger. But and his personality was getting more and
more difficult for him to deal with. She needed attention
all the time, and she would create dramas in her
life to get more and more attention from him.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Mm hmm. That just sounds like a very needy high
mating in this girl. Yeah, so I'm sorry. And you
can hear my dog panting in the background.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
She's not well, she's old and I think she's a
bit hot, and she's just she's a bit of courcious
lying in the sun, which is a bit shiphead.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
But yeah, if you can't apologize, if you can hear
her panting in the background.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
So, just months after moving to Canberra, it seemed that
Joe was beginning to question his relationship with Annie and
he was getting tired of the emotional roller coaster that
was their life together and he started thinking about of
life without her.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
So I had a really really weird and take a
breath there. That was strange. No, that was so he
brought us have a new car and he decided to
start a new chapter away from Arnie.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
So and it's thought that Annie realized this is what
he was doing that you know that he was planning
on leaving us. He hadn't, he was just planning on it.
He was obviously getting himself. So she obviously was ready
to do it, and she alsosly realized.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
So by nineteen ninety seven, Anna's behavior it just became
more odd and she developed a series of bizarre obsessions
with her health. So the next set of the things
I'm going to tell you her the words of Annie's lawyer,
a couple of psychiatrists, and.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
A police officer. So this isn't my words to Annie
was a very accomplished law student.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
She had been an excellent high school student, but she
had suffered with mental health problems for years. Psychiatrist said
that she had a history of being an attend seeker.
She was very focused on her physical appearance.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
I mean I read somewhere this.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Is actual that words, because I just remembered I did
actually read somewhere that she would go to the gym
all the time, ringing, and she said that she'd rather
die than be fat.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Right, Okay, So.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
She had a history of struggling. When she left her
hometans remember she's at Canberra. She had an eating disorder.
She then developed preoccupations with her developed preoccupations with her health.
She began to believe that she had terrible diseases and
that her insides were rotten, and at one point.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
She was convinced that she had aids.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Okay, she had developed a sense of dying and falling apart,
which is part of a depressive illness. So she believed
that she had a debilitating disease and that Joe because
he had suggested that she take eppicac or tennyment what that.
So she believed that because he had suggested taken that
(15:59):
this had caused issues with her health.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Oh, so he's gonna blame.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, so Joe's friend Robert. It's because I didn't know
what ippocac was. No, And so Robert had said that
it was a way to lose weight.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
And Anne had.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Said that Joe told her to take it because she
was always warning about her weight, right, But Robert said
that he didn't believe that because Joe never took drugs,
and he was sure that he wouldn't even know what
that was. So obviously, I've decided to look up ippocac
from myself, and according to WebMD dot com, it's a
small shrub that grows in parts of Central America and Brazil.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
So the route is used to make medicine.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Ipcaca is available both as a non prescription product and
as an FG approved prescription product, but using ipacac can
be unsafe when he.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Used long term or in large amounts.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Ippicac is most commonly used to cause vomiting after suspected poison,
and it's also used for croup, severe diardea, and cancer,
but there's no scientific.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Evidence support to support any of these uses.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Epocac it contains chemicals that irritate the digestive tract and
triggered the brain to cause vomiting.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
So obviously she must have been taken us an envomiting.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
After So, but when Robert was talking about Joe not
using drugs, I got the impressure he was talking.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
About illegal drugs.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
That's why I looked it up, because yeah, but epicac's legal, right,
But of course I can appreciate that maybe neither Joe
or Robert did know I actually know what.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
The what it was because I'm sure a lot of
people haven't heard of a drug. This basically used to
make it to a womut because.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Well, you know, I said, like prescription wise and stuff,
it's you after suspected poisoning, so not many people will
probably get poisoned and need to WMIT. So I would
have thought that maybe it isn't a something that you
wouldn't really have heard of anyway, So basically I don't
know if it's true or not. But Joe had suggested
(18:05):
she used it, right, so because he suggested it, it
was all his fault. And you know that she was
she wasn't well, So whether she actually thought she did
have illnesses or if she was deliberately faking these illnesses
is unknown.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Only Annie could know that.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
But she actually came to a point where she felt
her life wasn't worth living and she was going to
end it, but she was going to take Joe.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
With her for his part in her the TV and help. Well,
she was going to kill him and then commits su
aside herself or yes.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
But see this is where it gets confusing because as
the story goes on, I don't see any evidence.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Of her planning to kill her shelf, just her plan
to kill her Yeah, because I.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Read that she began planning a suicide pack with her
and Joe, apparently at end of their lives together, but
Joe didn't know anything about it, right, So yeah, I mean,
obviously this is what I'm going to come to actually
what happened. But as I said, I didn't see any
evidence that she tried to end her life.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
So that's why I'd said, well, maybe it is a VIC. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
So the twenty sixth of October nineteen ninety seven, Joe's
parents were worried. Joe called home every Sunday at the
same time every week, but on this day he hadn't called,
so eventually his mum called him, but it was a
strange voice to answered the phone. You know, it wasn't Joe,
so she asked her it was, and it was a
police officer that had answered before. But just as she
(19:39):
found it, just as he'd sort of explained to the
police officer, there was a knock.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
At her front door and it was actually the police
at her front door. So okay, okay. Obviously she hung
up the phone and to go and speak to the
police officer.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
So as soon as the officer said it's about your son,
Joe's mum knew that Annie had killed him.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
She just knew that. She just knew that.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
That soon said, oh, you know, you know, I don't
know what they would have said about you know, about
your son, and she just said that she knew.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah, so it was it died.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
So the next morning, Joe, Robert and Joe's mum went
to the marg to identify him.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
He just looked the same, except there was a purple
rain running down the side of his face that hadn't
been there before.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
So after I did identifying the body, they headed to
the police headquarters and officers told them what.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
They believed happened to Joe. So they must be. Obviously
they must have been told the.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Previous day sort of a brief yeah, you know, that
been a suicide pat.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Also, they're saying that he's committed suicide.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah, because Robert said when they talked to the police
that So they must have been told on the day,
the day before they had been.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
A suicide pat.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
But when they talked to police the next day, they
indicated that they quickly realized that.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Joe didn't take his own life and that there'd been
some sort of foul play.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
So what Joe's family and friends were still to discovered
that this was This was not a crime of passion.
The suicide fact that Annie had been plot on had
resulted obviously only in those as soon as she still
like and they would find out that they'd actually been
planned months earlier.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
So it wasn't a crime of passion. It wasn't like
the moment.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
It was premeditated and had been to the library and
she had researched books on how.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
To commit suicide. She had if I didn't.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Really understand this either, she had lessons on how to
inject someone with drugs.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Exactly. So what was assuming is I think you can actually,
you know, if you've got a family member or something.
This would be like diabetic or a child, it will
needs get that legal drugs. Yeah, so I think you can't.
Actually they'll be likeorials or yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
But I would have thought that you would have had
to maybe say you would think they would be freely
available just spreading until look up yeah, or looked it up.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
So I don't know, obviously, but I would personally.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
I would have thought it would maybe it would be
something that you'd been to the doctors you've got a diagnosis,
say it's for your child. You've got a diagnosis. So
then the doctor would say, right, I'll refer you to
this place where you can get to child, you know.
But I don't know how it works, and I don't
know how it works. Obviously it might be diking over
(22:30):
there as well. But apparently she had lessons or how
to inject somebody with drugs. But as I said, I'm
assuming whatever these lessons were, it was legal drugs that
she was just taking, yeah something, and she had gone
through friends to find drug contacts. So on the night
of the twentieth of October nineteen ninety seven and arranged
a dinner party.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
So the aim at this party was a bit twisted
and horrific.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
So there was a general understanding of among the party
guess that there was going to that they were going
all the witness the lead up to a crime.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
They weren't going to witness the crime they were, so
they do, yeah, why what what kind of friends are they?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Well, so, yeah, they were going to witness the lead
up to a crime, and this was going to be
the night that Anne was going to take her own
life and take Joe with her in a suicide pack.
So these friends thought that she was going to kill herself.
So yeah, see this is where it was a bit
confusing as well, because I kind.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Of read that, but as I said, was they didn't
ended to back.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
That up later on as well, But they guess what
kind of guests friends are they that they would.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Actually quite happily go along, And no, they were only
her friends for the start. Yeah, because Joe obviously didn't
know anything about it. His friends.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Yeah, I mean it's still twisted, but they said, like,
I mean this there just doesn't say to be ending it.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
But I never found ended it back up that she
was intent on taking her own life. So although I
read it, I did read that. I don't know if
the guests.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
I thought that she was going to take her own
life or if they only thought it was going to
be Joe. I don't I'm not quite clear on that.
So they were only attending the dinner obviously, not that
they weren't actually going to watch the actual death. So
and I think it was it was supposed to be
like a good bye party, so they all knew it
was like a good bad party, but Joe didn't obviously,
(24:30):
which is just so maybe they did think that she
was going to kill Yeah, I think they did, But
as I said, there just doesn't seem too much information
to start back that up. But how sick and twisted
is that? Well that is because I'm not being funny,
but one if my friend turned around, i'd like I
saw it.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
I'm not coming for a start, not on any part,
no into what the fuck are went at? If you
try to talk to them out about oh yeah, exactly
what are you? What you think?
Speaker 2 (24:57):
And like i'd even a big like contact some like
race or families, family members, I just get them in
contact council or like you would you would do.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
And you could sure like you thought that somebody was
going to try and end their life.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yeah, you would be saying, at least be if I
was gotten the an of a family or that, I'd
be like you. Yeah, and if you thought that she
was going to kill somebody as well, yeah exactly, so
I'm not I don't know. You could form in the place.
But the police probably wouldn't be able to Jonathan because crime.
But if the police already knew about it, then they
(25:34):
would have when she actually did do at.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Least they would have the evidence that it was premeditated. Yeah.
That seems a shame that they would still have to
wait for the crime to be at all. But that's
the case. They can't do it. I mean you could
maybe at a word weight or something, but they couldn't
actually like charge, but they could they could talk to her. Yeah,
we have a lot of opinions on this. I just
(25:58):
I just think that's mental like and I just think
her friends, what friends are they that they.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
Would actually knowingly go along or right not to witness
nd them, but no only going along to play all.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
But you know what I mean, like a happy like
it's all cool and no longer would.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Say next Mike, and yeah, a sort of reason because
Anne had such a reputation for her creating drama that
they thought it's thought or it's hoped that some of
the guests didn't really believe what they've been told and
it was her just making up drama as usual and
no crime was going to happen.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
Yes, actually, yeah, I guess maybe if if she's known
for that's about your thinking that whatever, right there.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
But but some of them did believe that Anne was
going to to at least take her own life, but
they just didn't seem to.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Bother about it and didn't even try and talk her
out about you know, basically just the conversations.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
They didn't do that. They're not real friends any.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
And all of these people were lost students, and they
weren't even junior lost students.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
They were all quite indviant and their studies.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
So they they were all involved in drug abuse and
according to a forensic psychiatrist, they were involved with a
whole series are totally irresponsible activities.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Whatever that meant, I don't know what that meant. That
was just a forensic psychiatrist that said that.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
So that's quite worrying to me that law students are
acting in this way because you know, making.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
I'm just thinking of the TV series How We Get
with Murders If anybody's not seen it, it's about obviously
a bunch of law students that basically get involved in murders.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yeah, and stuff that they shouldn't be considered the law students.
So such a sounds about that and thought of that,
and I loved that TV show. But yeah, that to me,
that's quite worrying that you know, these people are people
who are going to depend people and in the future,
and they should be law abidence of all lawyers are I.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
Mean obvious something definitely real criminals to try and get
out of jail time and stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
So I don't know, but like to me that you'd
think that they would know better. Well, yeah, I mean,
like that's what say.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Like the scary thing is why did no one attempt
to stop this from happening. These people were studying law,
they knew the law, but yet they were happy to
sit back and no, maybe not one hundred percent, but
they had a good idea that a murder or a suicide.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Pact was about to happen, and they did nothing, And
they did nothing. They went along and ate and drank
and were merry. Yeah, I just thought you'd drink, be merry. Yeah,
that's just yeah, it's just wrong, isn't it so.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Greg Rantz from the Australian Federal Police said quote, I
think the thing that concerned us as investigators was how
a culture had existed where people could actually attend a
party knowing that a death was going to occur, whether
it was by murder or suicide, and how people thought
it was okay to attend to party knowing that someone
(29:01):
was going to die.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, I mean, I don't, I just I just sorry.
I wouldn't. I wouldn't. That's not all right, No.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Even if even if it's really not really it's still weird.
Like I just i'd be like, no, that's I'm sorry,
but I wouldn't accept that.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
No.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
I wouldn't like, no, only go to a party, no
later or thinking that that was going to happen, that
might happen. Yes, I'd be like I'm having no part
of this whatsoever, exactly, and especially because I could interfere
where they're you know, if they could get charged when
and then that's their careers fall exactly.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Because I just I mean, I don't know if you'll
tell me any more about them, But I mean, like what,
I love to know what their thoughts were after the event,
like what they thought about.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
That, like to have regrets today, don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Okay, So after the guests left, so the dinner party's
over and downey, everybody's left, and they made Joe a
cup of coffee and laced it with ht NO, and
then she prepared some heroin and put it in a
syringe the head, but it was so concentrated in the
syringe that it was congealed, so she wasn't able to inject.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Them because obviously, especially she was trying to give an overdose.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Yeah, so but that ended up being a failed attempt
at killing him because she couldn't do it because it
was so concentrated. So of course Joe woke up the
next morning and have no idea that I tried what
she tried to do the night before.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
He just felt a bit crap with what he thought
was a hangover. But it was probably like the effect
of that and probably calls but and it was determined though,
like you, I don't know. I would have thought that
maybe that would have been a bit of a wake
up call, like maybe it wasn't I couldn't do it.
Maybe that's a sign that that's the wrong thing to do,
(30:45):
but that's not the case.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Made more determined, Yeah, she was more determined, and she
prepared for a second dinner party. Why does she have
to a dinner party because she likes to create triala
and she wants attention.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
And.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Why she wanted to kill him anyway, But we might dinner.
It's like it's got to be a show. So either
that Friday night second in a party. Again, the guests
were told what she was planning, and again after everyone left,
she drugged Joe with the racinal and then she injected
him with two big dozes of her right. So she
(31:22):
thought that she'd given him a lethal dose, but he
was still alive the next morning. He obviously wasn't well.
He was in bed all day, and then he was
still alive on the Sunday morning as well. So basically
she'd given her on the Friday night.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
By the Sunday, it was suffering like he was basically
dying for two days. And then.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
There's like she knew he was dying from the overdose
and she just indreended about it.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
She just stood by and watched like she's just dontending
about it.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
I mean, it's one thing that kills somebody about to
watch them actually suffer, That's that's evil.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
So on the Sunday, she called her friend and pat
she told her friend that she had given to an
overdose and the friend said, we'll call an ambulance.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
And and you said that she couldn't. I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
The friend told her she was a selfish bitch and
that she couldn't take someone's life. And she saw, assuming
this friend wasn't at this, this must be a different friend.
And she tried to convince Annie to call an ambulance,
saying if you do, like, if you do call an
angulant ambulance, yeah, you're gonna have an angry boyfriend on
your hands. But if you don't, you're gonna have a
(32:28):
murder charge. So Annie she gave it, and she called
an ambulance. Friend, I'm like, hang up bartphone, Yeah I.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Haven't done it.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
And when when the operator answered the emergency call and
calmly said could I get an ambulance please? I have
a person potentially overdosed on heroin and that the operator was.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Like, what do you mean potentially overdosed?
Speaker 2 (32:52):
And Annie said, well, he's vomitting everywhere, like blood stuff,
and then she gave the wrong address and the wrong name.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
She called herself Olivia and gave the wrong address, So
what was what was the point?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
So for the rest of the call, she was like
hysterical one minute and then proclaiming her love for Joe,
and then the next she was like calm, and she was.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Refusing to answer any of the questions.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
So I'm assuming that the emergent's services must have either
traced the call to find their dress or a mentally
she gave them the right one, because the paramedics, yeah, they.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Did turn up. Joe was lying naked and unconscious on
the floor in the bedroom.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
There was a lot of brown liquid coming out of
his mouth, so they had trouble getting past that to
get like a line in his lungs. So Annie was
quite frantic, and she was pacing back and forth from
the window to the door, and she grabbed one of
the paramedic's arms and said he had he had a
lot last night, and then started pacing again.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
So she's obviously still break out him. That's overdosel.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
So despite the valiant of the emergency services, Joe died
that afternoon, and the official cause.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Of death was a fix as fixation.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Anna was taking the polaystation for questioning, so she told
him that her and Joe had a suicide pact. So
obviously she was asked what I shouldn't go through with
it herself. Then she never really asked that question because
she didn't have an answer.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
For it, because I don't know. She was never a picture,
was ever intended on taking her own life.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
That's why I don't. That's why I was kind of confused,
because I was like, well, was she ever? Was she
ever going to be planning on taking her own life?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
But I don't. I don't think she was.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
I mean, but it did say earlier that she was suicidal.
Maybe she was, I don't know, but I don't. I
think she was just intendal taking those because she.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Knew he was leaving, and I think that that was
just the plan, was just to get rid of him.
And like, look, the fact I have.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
So Anna's claims that Joe overdose on heroin was quickly
ruled out, and she was chargeways murder that day, So
I just.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Didn't even believe her first split side.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
So as the investigation continued, the police actually realized that
there could have been someone else involved.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
In Joe's death.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Annie's friend my Daddy Row had an involvement in the
preparation of the crime. She'd actually gone to the library
where Annie and helped her look up how to inject
heroin and the other people she had been involved with
purchasing the hit now and her main involvement, her main involvement.
She was the one that actually organized the parties. She
(35:37):
was the one who invited everyone, so she knew exactly
what was going on. What why are you getting involved?
Speaker 1 (35:44):
God? Why are you thinking that your friend is you
were doing such a good thing. It's not a good idea.
It's awful. You would not help your friend.
Speaker 4 (35:53):
Sorry, I wouldn't like No matter how good my friend
was I was friends with, I would be like saying.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Are you really like?
Speaker 2 (35:59):
No? So, in following the investigation, it was determined that
there was sufficient evidence to charge both Anna and Madadi
with murder. The initials stood trial together in October nineteen
ninety eight, but after four weeks due to a technical
Due to a legal technicality, the joint trial was abandoned,
so each woman faced a separate trial and they both
(36:22):
exercised their rights to a trial by judge only.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Judge.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
So Anna chose not to give evidence in her trial,
I meaning the court wouldn't even hear her version of events,
which would have thought.
Speaker 4 (36:37):
That what we would have wanted to well, if she
was that Adam and that it was a suicide pact,
that he came out of suicide, then yeah, you'd think
she'd want to try and defend herself on that and
make them.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Believe that that was the case. Them not correlate, you know.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
So the state of Anna's mental health at the time
of Joe's death dominated the trial to what extent, like
to what extended a player heart in the tragic events
in the twenty sixth of October ninety nine.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Seven, you're right over there, Sorry, just a dog again.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
The crown case against Annie was that her acts were
deliberate acts of murder, They were premeditated and cold blooded,
and that she had made a long and.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Detailed plan with the view to bringing about the death
of her partner. But when it came to the motive
that just wasn't obvious.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
The most they could point to was that Anne thought
in some way that she had been made ill by
the advice of Joe to take the ipocac, And according
to a Crown psychiatrist, when you start, when you started
analyzing the alleged motive, it fed completely.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
And utterly into the notion that she was mentally unwell.
Should sound like it.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
According to Paul Mullen, a forensic psychiatrist, in his view,
there was no doubt that Annie had a significant mental
disorder which had been troubling her on and off for
a number of years, and that's why they went for
diminished responsibility. He said, yes, this woman planned and carried
out a murder, and yes she told other people that
(38:10):
she was going to kill this man, so there was very.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Clearly a knowledge of what she was doing.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
But the diminished responsibility simply says that the nature of
this disorder was one which affects her judgment and affected
other aspects of her mental functions. So the judge accepted
that the defense had established that at all relevant times,
Ann who was suffering from abnormal abnormality of the mind,
(38:38):
and found that she was suffering from a borderline personality
disorder of an at least moderate, if not greater extent,
that she was suffering from depression. She had an eating disorder,
and all of those things meant in his judgment that
her responsibility were her actions were very substantially substantially diminished.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
A lot of hard words there were done. Sorry.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
As well as trying to establish an state mental state
at the time of the killing, the court also faced
another question just how it was this tragedy allowed to
happen in the first place. Quite a few of the
law students from the Australian National University came through the
witness box and told him they'd been invited to the
parties and it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
A secret that a crime was going to be committed.
These people were questioned time and time again why didn't
you do anything? And not one of them gave a
satisfactory answer.
Speaker 4 (39:35):
Well, I mean like, why why did you allow that
to happen? Even if even if you didn't really believe it?
Why why why didn't you say something?
Speaker 2 (39:43):
That's what really you couldn't You could could have even
said it to Joe. You could have said, Luke, you're
missus be a bit weird. She's saying these things, you.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Know, just to kind of watch your back that you know,
that's really bad. Actually, I never even thought of that
why didn't Why would one of these people.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
You know, I don't know if she's just creating a
drama as usually trying to get attention, but this is
what she's saying exactly, Yeah, totally. And then it might
have given them a chance to be maybe more wary
of what she was doing, Like you know, if she
offered him a coffee, maybe not take the coffee.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Yea, or just like just be more aware or whatever.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
I mean, Bay would have left her maybe rather than
you know, right, okay, right, this is the time, because
there was always a planning it anyway, right, I'm out
here exactly.
Speaker 4 (40:28):
I mean, you know, they could have given him a chance.
I mean it might not have stopped it, but it
could have given him a chance. Yeah, So why did
nobody say them.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
It's baffling, it really is. Because if somebody was like saying,
if I had a part if my partner was plotting
to kill me, and and.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
One of the one of his friends could have said
m M, why Yeah, It's just it's it's really baffling.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
How so many people I don't know how many people
it was, but it was obviously.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
A few knew about it, and just not one live
with that on their constry. So they could have made
a difference. Yeah, I mean they might not have, but
they could have could have by just speaking up. And
even if it was to fantasy, you know, and she
was just making up her head, so what just advoice it?
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah, I would. I mean if somebody told me that
they were going to.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Kill their their partner, they told me this, I would
say something because I would just like write my beload
of bullshit and just giving you the heads up.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
Yeah, exactly, because you know what people.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
Are like, you couple make up things and say things
and exaggerate things and stuff or something.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Even if I didn't believe it, I think I would
have to. It's such a serious thing to talk about it.
I'd be like, oh, yeah, what your missus has said,
you know, even if sing in a jokey sort of
way you're saying it, you know. I just I just
don't understand why these people could.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
It's very strange go along with it and think that
it was okay and and and think that was normal.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
And that's the thing. It's not even just one person.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
It's like a few different people have of all these
people but thinking the same the same way.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
I meant to be lawyers and stuff. I meant to
be intelligent people, clearly, I mean to be fair. You
could be the most intelligent person, I still have no
common sense. Well, yes, exactly, and tells that people still
do stupid downs. Well exactly. So it was heard in
court that I don't know so well. It was heard
in the court though that I know at one time. Sorry, right,
(42:24):
it was herding the court, and.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
It was heard in the court though that I at
one time told people that quote wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Be hard to convince someone that you're crazy, end quote.
So was she really mentally ill?
Speaker 2 (42:42):
She claimed that she had a good knowledge of psychiatry psychiatry,
and that she had a good knowledge of the law,
and that if she had wanted to, it wouldn't be
hard to be convinced somebody that she was insane.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
So it's weird that she said that in the past.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Also, when evidence has been heard in the court, she
would put her head in her hands and her shoulders
would shake as if she was crying. Like she put
her face in her Yeah, she would cover her face
and her shoulders would.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Be shaken as if she was crying.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
But then she would she was noticed like peeking out
from her fingers and looking about like to see if
people were watching her.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Like that, she would be the same of attention. Yeah,
so but then what I still I don't get why
you would like.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Murder something for attention or you know, because you've ruined her, like.
Speaker 4 (43:32):
You've ruined their life, his family's life, you've ruined your
own life because you're gonna work prisoner for it.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Yeah for what a bit of drama and a bit
of attention.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
But maybe that sort of part of the mental illness,
you know, And she was really mentally ill though, Yeah,
but I was saying, like she's saying that she could
convince people she was mentally ill. But if saying that
could be part of the mental illness, you know, when
it comes to illnesses, Yeah, exactly, you just can't understand it,
can you know. So On the twenty third of April
(44:03):
nineteen ninety nine, Anew was found guilty of manslaughter on
the grounds of diminished responsibility. She got a sentence of
ten years with a non parole period of four years.
So given the time that she had already spent behind bars,
she said she almost served eighteen months after that after
the after the trial, so she murdered Joe in nineteen
(44:24):
ninety seven. She was released in two thousand and one.
So altogether she almost said four years. So that was
like the minimum was the four years, and that's all
she said.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
That's oh, you know what I'm like about seven sies.
Speaker 4 (44:35):
That's that's a pathetic ethic, even on to minish responsibility manslaughter.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
I just because she was saying us ten years, it
was just the minimum was four. She should have said
the ten years or at least eight years, like closer
to ten anyway.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Definitely closer to ten than than just four.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Yeah, and Madadi Row remember the one that helped aren't
she was acquitted. The judge said that there was nothing
that could act the pinpoint me David in the room
when Annie gave Joe the fatal injection that killed him,
So she would she helped plan a murder and just
because she wasn't there when it actually happened.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
But I thought, is that I don't know if that's.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
Changing, but isn't it even if you don't physically murder someone,
there has been cases where if you're an accomplice in
some way, you're still being charged with murder.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
I'm sure we've done a couple of cases. Obviously not
in necessary case, not in that case.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
But yeah, but that's yeah, she should have been charged
with something. Oh yeah, exactly, Well was it aid and better? Well,
maybe there just wasn't the evidence to prove that.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
I mean, maybe that was here said that.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Maybe that was just that she actually went to and
to the library where I mean she could have went
to the library where that doesn't mean to say that
she helped her.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Well, that's true, So maybe there just wasn't the evidence
to do it. Obviously not so.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Joe's friend Robert He said that Joe's family just feels
totally betrayed by the justice system in Australia and that
there's nowhere near what they would call adequate justice for what.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
I don't know she had, like a mental facility in
hospital or I never never actually said, so, I don't know.
I just because it doesn't really sound like she's got
much of a punishment. I mean when she was in prison.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
She completed her a PhD in prison, and in twenty
sixteen she published her thesis on Australian film female Criminals.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Oh when did she make money from that? That she
doesn't know, so as she's just living her life normally
now is four years.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
That's absolutely horrendous for what she did, so she should
have got a lot more than that she planned it, so.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
As I was saying, like at the start, it wasn't
it was never clear whether she at any point she
did actually it was sped suicide packed. I know that
Joe never knew about it. Yeah, so on his side,
yeah it was murder. But you know, with her, I
don't know if she ever intended on taking her own life.
It was just never never. I don't know. That's awful,
(47:02):
absolutely awful. I'm not happy with that one. No, I
just thought that that's like pure Joey. There was just
no yeah, no justice there, like definitely not.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
So thank you for listening, yep, thanks for listening to
our Patreon episode.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Yes, and we will be back in a couple of weeks. Yeah,
so opposite you.
Speaker 4 (47:28):
You know, I want to keep listening, keep listening, subscribe, rating, review,
That's what I want to say.
Hi, I'm Laura and Antel and this is Hello everybody.
(00:23):
Welcome today's episode. Hello, welcome back, Welcome back, everybody. I'm
excited for a not an episode today. So we're in
the Army. We are in Australia down Under.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Yeah, I don't go there very often. Yeah, no, I'm
talking about on the podcast. But I said I don't
go there very often. I went on, like my cases,
I haven't really been in Australia. I thought you meant
like actually physically going here.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Well, considering you're my sister, that you wouldn't known if
i'd been there. Yeah, that was a bit thumb.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, okay, sorry in your podcast, say I haven't been
there more than you. Yeah, I think you've been there
a couple of times.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Oh I went there.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I have been there, yeah, because I think they were
the family Lies one, remember the circus.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
One that was Australia. Yeah, that's true. Well, a little change,
yeah from our usual. So and has it got a title? Oppositely,
but what is the title? It's called a Suicidal Fantasy,
an interesting interesting title.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yeah, it might little, it might get a little bit
confusing with the You're not going to confuse me, Well,
I kind of. I kind of found it a bit
confusion with the suicide bit. But we'll get into that
and you'll understand what's we get into. Shall we just
dive in there, Let's dive in, Let's go. So a
New Sing was born in India on the third of
(01:44):
September nineteen seventy two to Indian Australian parents. When Anu
was one, they moved to Sydney and they settled in
the suburb of Strathfield. She was a happy, go lucky child,
but she did have some attachment issues. She attended a
Catholic high school and graduated in nineteen ninety. In nineteen
(02:05):
ninety one, she moved to Canberra to attend the Australian
National University to study for a double degree in economics
and law. But she ended up using recreational drugs and
she was missing her parents because you know, as I said,
she had attachments, and she ended up defer in her
studies for a.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Year to go home to Sydney.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Right.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
And it's a bit sketchy kind of between now and
nineteen ninety five, because I'm not she was back studying
for her loss. I'm not actually sure if it was
just a year that she took off order, she took
more time. I don't know what she was doing which
took her time off. But in nineteen ninety five she
met Joe Chinkwi. I think that's how you presents. I'm
(02:50):
not too sure. Hopefully that's right.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
She was back studying for her.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Law degree and they met on a night out in Newcastle,
New South Wales, which is where he was from, and
they started her early ship. So Joe's parents they were
Italian and that's why that's a name that I couldn't
really pronounce. And it worked hard to build a life
in Australia. Joe was a good kid. He did well
(03:14):
at school and in sports. He was an extravert. He
was full of life and a part of the people
were just drawn him. He graduated from university with a
degree in civil engineering and it didn't take him long
to get a job in his hometown.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
So by nineteen ninety six, Joe, where what happened?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Because you're not seeing what I'm sious. Yea, I'm obviously
reading this right, so I was about to say. By
nineteen ninety six, Joe and Annaw's relationship was getting more serious.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
But if.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Because Andrew's name was spelled au.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
So Andw's has got an S on the end of it.
So does that spell? In?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
What I'm reading is by nineteen ninety six Joe and
in its relationship?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Oh my god, you're in our child just coming, wasn't
it you? I'm sorry, child childish?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
So, Joe and Annie's relationship was getting more serious, and
to their friends, they had seemed perfectly happy with each.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Other to start with.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
However, as time more on, friends and families start to
notice that perhaps the relationship wasn't all it seemed to be.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
So.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
One of Joe's friends, Robert He said that Annie was
confident and dominant, but he actually found her a little
bit strange. The first time he met her at a
dinner party, she had talked about her previous relationship and
how intense it had been. Now, you know, that's your
boyfriend's friend and you're talking.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
About your ex. That's just weird.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
Yeah, I mean unless you actually knew them, and then
I don't see why you would bring them up in conversation.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, that's just I wouldn't do that, especially, I wouldn't
do that. And in her work she said to him
that her Neurecs had been so close that it was
almost incestuous.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Now that's a very weird thing to saying. I don't
really understand that, because you're supposed to be close to.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Your partner, Yeah, but why but not as close as
you would like. It's a different closest to what you
would be with a family member, because it's not the
same closest, is it? I mean, so how would it
be Also, how I could understand that if that was
said the other way around, if you were that close
to your brother it was almost incestuous. Yeah, but not
(05:35):
your partner, No, because you meant to be that. It
meant to be like that, Yeah, you know you meant
to be. So how how can that be described as
almost incestuous?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Because how close are you to your actually to your family? Like,
I mean, unless she just maybe she didn't realize what
she was.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Saying, or well, she's meant to be a bright person
and she's a law university studying law and economics, Like yeah,
I just I found that a very weird thing to say.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
I just I didn't understand that. I mean, I don't
wouldn't would have to me.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
It sounds like what she's saying it because she's saying
that they had been so close and it was intense.
It must have it just must have been a really
intense relationship. So I don't know where I don't know
why the word ancestuous came into. Yeah, I wouldn't have
described it in that way describe well no, no, no,
So yeah, so that was strange. Yes, So Robert said
(06:31):
he didn't know how to react to that, obviously, and
he could see that neither Joe. Joe must have you know,
been in the conversation or overheard it, well because they
were at a dinner parties, right, yeah, and he said,
he said, Joe didn't say anything, but he was clearly uncomfortable, which, yeah,
if my boyfriend boyfriend partner was talking about there is
(06:55):
to start away.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Never mind saying oh, it was really intense and it
was almost ancestrious something that's appropriate, you know what I mean,
when you're in a relationship. I don't think it's really
appropriate to talk about X a bit.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I mean in some contexts, yeah, yeah, like I mean
some things you know, you can you know, if they
were there and it was like a holiday or a
memory or something, that's fine.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
But when it comes to actual relationship. I don't think
you can talk about No, you don't need to discuss
the relationship. Yeah, you can discuss things that may have
like you may have done.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Together, Yeah you are on holiday together, or maybe you've
had children together. Obviously you know their name is probably
going to come the actual lot of relationship.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
The state is of the relationship, like how it was
and yeah, like that.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
That is a missay sign of it that you don't
need to discussed that with the current partner. And I
don't I think that's no.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Is it appropriate?
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Oh yeah, it's totally inappropriate, and especially at a dinner
party where his friends are at like.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Well, yeah, that's not really good imprecious making? Is it? No?
Not really? So Robert, this guy, Robert.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
He said that Anne has struck him as someone who
was always looking for a reaction and that she liked
to shock and make an impression. So that's why she's
saying it. That's why because she wants to make him prison.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
She wants that reaction. Yeah, but I mean there are
other things that you could say that would yeah over yeah,
you know, because they're just not for cruit things.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
So he also said that Annie was always in the
foreground leading the discussion, which were.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Very discussions, were very weird at times, and Joe was
always in the background, and this wasn't the Joe that
he knew grew up well, I mean, he knew that
Joe really well.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
His Joe's parents were Roberts godparents, so obviously you know
they've known each other.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, so he obviously you know it's Joe really well.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
And Joe's parents they also noticed that they just that
he did. Sorry, he just didn't see hisself anymore. His
dad said that when they had family get togethers, as
soon as Annie saw Joe talking to his dad, she
would come over and interrupt and like, take Joe away
from the conversation.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Now, that's just rude.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
If that was Joe's dad, I'd be like, no, so
I was talking to my son exactly, remember, yes, so no,
and I'd be having a word with Joe.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Say no, we're in the middle of conversation. No, you're
not walking away from me. That's just a bit disrespectful.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I mean, I always think I was find it weird
when people are disrespectful to their partner's parents.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
You, I know, you can't like you don't have to
be like their best friends or necessarily.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Get on with them great, but I think you need
to be like very respectful, respectful. Yeah, exactly, just just
be respectful. You don't have to be their best friends.
You don't have to get on with them brilliantly, because
you know, you can't choose your in laws obviously, but
you know you can be polite and respectful and you know,
just I just it's rude.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, yeah, taking your partner away from any conversation that
they're having is rude.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
So but never mind their parents, like I just find
out really disrespectful.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
And Joe's mum said that she got annoyed because she
would make because Joe was still living at home at
this point, and.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
So Joe would go to.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Work and his mum would make him his dinner from
coming home from work every night. And I knew that,
and she knew that they ate at six o'clock every night.
But yeah, she would phone them at six o'clock or
you know, maybe just after sex and would chat to
for an hour on the phone.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
So why is she not saying, you know, going like
for me back because I mean by dinner. Well, I
think maybe because he was under the thumb because that
be comes to me.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
That's why I'd like, look, you know, I mean that's
what I'm seeing. I'll get your name back when I finished.
And then most people and then surely she would get
the hint because or or I would just not be
answering my phone. But then when was it ninety nights
in the nineties, wasn't it so, I mean, mobiles weren't
as advanced of they are now, so maybe not everybody
had mobile phone.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
No, she was. I think she was phoning high phone.
I think, yeah, so I suppose you can't just ignore
it because it could have been anybody.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Well yeah, but well yeah, I just but I think
the relationship was that she was like dom dominating and
maybe maybe it could be a sort of form of
abuse really that he knew that if he didn't answer
the phone and he didn't talk to him, maybe it
just wasn't worth it.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
What their what it was, how she was going to
react or something, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
I don't I'm still rue it is it's rude. And
I said she was doing it every night, like and
you know, he would stop eating to be on the phone.
But jose my mother was lad enough and she would
take the phone off them until Annie to stop calling
where she.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Knew they were having.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Dinner because you know that that was their family time
where they would sit and you know, discuss their day
and just spent.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
A bit of time together. So I mean I can't understand.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
You know, once or twice she's phone, I went, oh, well,
I'm really really sorry. But once you know that that's
when they're having their dinner. If that's the same every night, mm,
then do that.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
I stn't do that?
Speaker 4 (11:53):
You wait for could his sake? What what's what's the
problem of just waiting like an hour or or just
saying that, you know, can you give me a ring
when I when you finish it?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Exactly, So to me, yeah, I mean that's definitely like
it's like a control thing and abuse thing or something.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
You know, she's doing it on purpose because she can't. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
And for whatever reason, Joe's not you know, he's not
standing up and said no, that's that's not on.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, well you know, if it isn't it like an
abusive relationship.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
But you know he feels like he can't.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
So with Annie studying in Canberra and Joe living in Newcastle,
which is two hundred and one miles away. The long
distance relationship was becoming strained, so after months of pressure,
Joe finally gave in and agreed to move.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
To Canberra to begin a new life with Ane there.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
So, to me, that's just red flanks again, Like after
months of pressure he gave in, So obviously she was
pressurizing him to move.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Yeah, like he obviously didn't really want to, but he's
obviously feeling like he's had to.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
I mean, they do they still going study and stuff for.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
No, he was working when he musteral engineer, so I'm
assuming he must have got got a job. So Joe
hope that it would help their relationship and it would
get stronger. But and his personality was getting more and
more difficult for him to deal with. She needed attention
all the time, and she would create dramas in her
life to get more and more attention from him.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Mm hmm. That just sounds like a very needy high
mating in this girl. Yeah, so I'm sorry. And you
can hear my dog panting in the background.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
She's not well, she's old and I think she's a
bit hot, and she's just she's a bit of courcious
lying in the sun, which is a bit shiphead.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
But yeah, if you can't apologize, if you can hear
her panting in the background.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
So, just months after moving to Canberra, it seemed that
Joe was beginning to question his relationship with Annie and
he was getting tired of the emotional roller coaster that
was their life together and he started thinking about of
life without her.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
So I had a really really weird and take a
breath there. That was strange. No, that was so he
brought us have a new car and he decided to
start a new chapter away from Arnie.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
So and it's thought that Annie realized this is what
he was doing that you know that he was planning
on leaving us. He hadn't, he was just planning on it.
He was obviously getting himself. So she obviously was ready
to do it, and she alsosly realized.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
So by nineteen ninety seven, Anna's behavior it just became
more odd and she developed a series of bizarre obsessions
with her health. So the next set of the things
I'm going to tell you her the words of Annie's lawyer,
a couple of psychiatrists, and.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
A police officer. So this isn't my words to Annie
was a very accomplished law student.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
She had been an excellent high school student, but she
had suffered with mental health problems for years. Psychiatrist said
that she had a history of being an attend seeker.
She was very focused on her physical appearance.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
I mean I read somewhere this.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Is actual that words, because I just remembered I did
actually read somewhere that she would go to the gym
all the time, ringing, and she said that she'd rather
die than be fat.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Right, Okay, So.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
She had a history of struggling. When she left her
hometans remember she's at Canberra. She had an eating disorder.
She then developed preoccupations with her developed preoccupations with her health.
She began to believe that she had terrible diseases and
that her insides were rotten, and at one point.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
She was convinced that she had aids.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Okay, she had developed a sense of dying and falling apart,
which is part of a depressive illness. So she believed
that she had a debilitating disease and that Joe because
he had suggested that she take eppicac or tennyment what that.
So she believed that because he had suggested taken that
(15:59):
this had caused issues with her health.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Oh, so he's gonna blame.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, so Joe's friend Robert. It's because I didn't know
what ippocac was. No, And so Robert had said that
it was a way to lose weight.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
And Anne had.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Said that Joe told her to take it because she
was always warning about her weight, right, But Robert said
that he didn't believe that because Joe never took drugs,
and he was sure that he wouldn't even know what
that was. So obviously, I've decided to look up ippocac
from myself, and according to WebMD dot com, it's a
small shrub that grows in parts of Central America and Brazil.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
So the route is used to make medicine.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Ipcaca is available both as a non prescription product and
as an FG approved prescription product, but using ipacac can
be unsafe when he.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Used long term or in large amounts.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Ippicac is most commonly used to cause vomiting after suspected poison,
and it's also used for croup, severe diardea, and cancer,
but there's no scientific.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Evidence support to support any of these uses.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Epocac it contains chemicals that irritate the digestive tract and
triggered the brain to cause vomiting.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
So obviously she must have been taken us an envomiting.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
After So, but when Robert was talking about Joe not
using drugs, I got the impressure he was talking.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
About illegal drugs.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
That's why I looked it up, because yeah, but epicac's legal, right,
But of course I can appreciate that maybe neither Joe
or Robert did know I actually know what.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
The what it was because I'm sure a lot of
people haven't heard of a drug. This basically used to
make it to a womut because.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Well, you know, I said, like prescription wise and stuff,
it's you after suspected poisoning, so not many people will
probably get poisoned and need to WMIT. So I would
have thought that maybe it isn't a something that you
wouldn't really have heard of anyway, So basically I don't
know if it's true or not. But Joe had suggested
(18:05):
she used it, right, so because he suggested it, it
was all his fault. And you know that she was
she wasn't well, So whether she actually thought she did
have illnesses or if she was deliberately faking these illnesses
is unknown.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Only Annie could know that.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
But she actually came to a point where she felt
her life wasn't worth living and she was going to
end it, but she was going to take Joe.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
With her for his part in her the TV and help. Well,
she was going to kill him and then commits su
aside herself or yes.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
But see this is where it gets confusing because as
the story goes on, I don't see any evidence.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Of her planning to kill her shelf, just her plan
to kill her Yeah, because I.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Read that she began planning a suicide pack with her
and Joe, apparently at end of their lives together, but
Joe didn't know anything about it, right, So yeah, I mean,
obviously this is what I'm going to come to actually
what happened. But as I said, I didn't see any
evidence that she tried to end her life.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
So that's why I'd said, well, maybe it is a VIC. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
So the twenty sixth of October nineteen ninety seven, Joe's
parents were worried. Joe called home every Sunday at the
same time every week, but on this day he hadn't called,
so eventually his mum called him, but it was a
strange voice to answered the phone. You know, it wasn't Joe,
so she asked her it was, and it was a
police officer that had answered before. But just as she
(19:39):
found it, just as he'd sort of explained to the
police officer, there was a knock.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
At her front door and it was actually the police
at her front door. So okay, okay. Obviously she hung
up the phone and to go and speak to the
police officer.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
So as soon as the officer said it's about your son,
Joe's mum knew that Annie had killed him.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
She just knew that. She just knew that.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
That soon said, oh, you know, you know, I don't
know what they would have said about you know, about
your son, and she just said that she knew.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah, so it was it died.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
So the next morning, Joe, Robert and Joe's mum went
to the marg to identify him.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
He just looked the same, except there was a purple
rain running down the side of his face that hadn't
been there before.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
So after I did identifying the body, they headed to
the police headquarters and officers told them what.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
They believed happened to Joe. So they must be. Obviously
they must have been told the.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Previous day sort of a brief yeah, you know, that
been a suicide pat.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Also, they're saying that he's committed suicide.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah, because Robert said when they talked to the police
that So they must have been told on the day,
the day before they had been.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
A suicide pat.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
But when they talked to police the next day, they
indicated that they quickly realized that.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Joe didn't take his own life and that there'd been
some sort of foul play.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
So what Joe's family and friends were still to discovered
that this was This was not a crime of passion.
The suicide fact that Annie had been plot on had
resulted obviously only in those as soon as she still
like and they would find out that they'd actually been
planned months earlier.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
So it wasn't a crime of passion. It wasn't like
the moment.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
It was premeditated and had been to the library and
she had researched books on how.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
To commit suicide. She had if I didn't.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Really understand this either, she had lessons on how to
inject someone with drugs.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Exactly. So what was assuming is I think you can actually,
you know, if you've got a family member or something.
This would be like diabetic or a child, it will
needs get that legal drugs. Yeah, so I think you can't.
Actually they'll be likeorials or yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
But I would have thought that you would have had
to maybe say you would think they would be freely
available just spreading until look up yeah, or looked it up.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
So I don't know, obviously, but I would personally.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
I would have thought it would maybe it would be
something that you'd been to the doctors you've got a diagnosis,
say it's for your child. You've got a diagnosis. So
then the doctor would say, right, I'll refer you to
this place where you can get to child, you know.
But I don't know how it works, and I don't
know how it works. Obviously it might be diking over
(22:30):
there as well. But apparently she had lessons or how
to inject somebody with drugs. But as I said, I'm
assuming whatever these lessons were, it was legal drugs that
she was just taking, yeah something, and she had gone
through friends to find drug contacts. So on the night
of the twentieth of October nineteen ninety seven and arranged
a dinner party.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
So the aim at this party was a bit twisted
and horrific.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
So there was a general understanding of among the party
guess that there was going to that they were going
all the witness the lead up to a crime.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
They weren't going to witness the crime they were, so
they do, yeah, why what what kind of friends are they?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Well, so, yeah, they were going to witness the lead
up to a crime, and this was going to be
the night that Anne was going to take her own
life and take Joe with her in a suicide pack.
So these friends thought that she was going to kill herself.
So yeah, see this is where it was a bit
confusing as well, because I kind.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Of read that, but as I said, was they didn't
ended to back.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
That up later on as well, But they guess what
kind of guests friends are they that they would.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Actually quite happily go along, And no, they were only
her friends for the start. Yeah, because Joe obviously didn't
know anything about it. His friends.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Yeah, I mean it's still twisted, but they said, like,
I mean this there just doesn't say to be ending it.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
But I never found ended it back up that she
was intent on taking her own life. So although I
read it, I did read that. I don't know if
the guests.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
I thought that she was going to take her own
life or if they only thought it was going to
be Joe. I don't I'm not quite clear on that.
So they were only attending the dinner obviously, not that
they weren't actually going to watch the actual death. So
and I think it was it was supposed to be
like a good bye party, so they all knew it
was like a good bad party, but Joe didn't obviously,
(24:30):
which is just so maybe they did think that she
was going to kill Yeah, I think they did, But
as I said, there just doesn't seem too much information
to start back that up. But how sick and twisted
is that? Well that is because I'm not being funny,
but one if my friend turned around, i'd like I
saw it.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
I'm not coming for a start, not on any part,
no into what the fuck are went at? If you
try to talk to them out about oh yeah, exactly
what are you? What you think?
Speaker 2 (24:57):
And like i'd even a big like contact some like
race or families, family members, I just get them in
contact council or like you would you would do.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
And you could sure like you thought that somebody was
going to try and end their life.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yeah, you would be saying, at least be if I
was gotten the an of a family or that, I'd
be like you. Yeah, and if you thought that she
was going to kill somebody as well, yeah exactly, so
I'm not I don't know. You could form in the place.
But the police probably wouldn't be able to Jonathan because crime.
But if the police already knew about it, then they
(25:34):
would have when she actually did do at.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Least they would have the evidence that it was premeditated. Yeah.
That seems a shame that they would still have to
wait for the crime to be at all. But that's
the case. They can't do it. I mean you could
maybe at a word weight or something, but they couldn't
actually like charge, but they could they could talk to her. Yeah,
we have a lot of opinions on this. I just
(25:58):
I just think that's mental like and I just think
her friends, what friends are they that they.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
Would actually knowingly go along or right not to witness
nd them, but no only going along to play all.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
But you know what I mean, like a happy like
it's all cool and no longer would.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Say next Mike, and yeah, a sort of reason because
Anne had such a reputation for her creating drama that
they thought it's thought or it's hoped that some of
the guests didn't really believe what they've been told and
it was her just making up drama as usual and
no crime was going to happen.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
Yes, actually, yeah, I guess maybe if if she's known
for that's about your thinking that whatever, right there.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
But but some of them did believe that Anne was
going to to at least take her own life, but
they just didn't seem to.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Bother about it and didn't even try and talk her
out about you know, basically just the conversations.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
They didn't do that. They're not real friends any.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
And all of these people were lost students, and they
weren't even junior lost students.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
They were all quite indviant and their studies.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
So they they were all involved in drug abuse and
according to a forensic psychiatrist, they were involved with a
whole series are totally irresponsible activities.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Whatever that meant, I don't know what that meant. That
was just a forensic psychiatrist that said that.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
So that's quite worrying to me that law students are
acting in this way because you know, making.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
I'm just thinking of the TV series How We Get
with Murders If anybody's not seen it, it's about obviously
a bunch of law students that basically get involved in murders.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yeah, and stuff that they shouldn't be considered the law students.
So such a sounds about that and thought of that,
and I loved that TV show. But yeah, that to me,
that's quite worrying that you know, these people are people
who are going to depend people and in the future,
and they should be law abidence of all lawyers are I.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
Mean obvious something definitely real criminals to try and get
out of jail time and stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
So I don't know, but like to me that you'd
think that they would know better. Well, yeah, I mean,
like that's what say.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Like the scary thing is why did no one attempt
to stop this from happening. These people were studying law,
they knew the law, but yet they were happy to
sit back and no, maybe not one hundred percent, but
they had a good idea that a murder or a suicide.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Pact was about to happen, and they did nothing, And
they did nothing. They went along and ate and drank
and were merry. Yeah, I just thought you'd drink, be merry. Yeah,
that's just yeah, it's just wrong, isn't it so.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Greg Rantz from the Australian Federal Police said quote, I
think the thing that concerned us as investigators was how
a culture had existed where people could actually attend a
party knowing that a death was going to occur, whether
it was by murder or suicide, and how people thought
it was okay to attend to party knowing that someone
(29:01):
was going to die.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, I mean, I don't, I just I just sorry.
I wouldn't. I wouldn't. That's not all right, No.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Even if even if it's really not really it's still weird.
Like I just i'd be like, no, that's I'm sorry,
but I wouldn't accept that.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
No.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
I wouldn't like, no, only go to a party, no
later or thinking that that was going to happen, that
might happen. Yes, I'd be like I'm having no part
of this whatsoever, exactly, and especially because I could interfere
where they're you know, if they could get charged when
and then that's their careers fall exactly.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Because I just I mean, I don't know if you'll
tell me any more about them, But I mean, like what,
I love to know what their thoughts were after the event,
like what they thought about.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
That, like to have regrets today, don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Okay, So after the guests left, so the dinner party's
over and downey, everybody's left, and they made Joe a
cup of coffee and laced it with ht NO, and
then she prepared some heroin and put it in a
syringe the head, but it was so concentrated in the
syringe that it was congealed, so she wasn't able to inject.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Them because obviously, especially she was trying to give an overdose.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Yeah, so but that ended up being a failed attempt
at killing him because she couldn't do it because it
was so concentrated. So of course Joe woke up the
next morning and have no idea that I tried what
she tried to do the night before.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
He just felt a bit crap with what he thought
was a hangover. But it was probably like the effect
of that and probably calls but and it was determined though,
like you, I don't know. I would have thought that
maybe that would have been a bit of a wake
up call, like maybe it wasn't I couldn't do it.
Maybe that's a sign that that's the wrong thing to do,
(30:45):
but that's not the case.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Made more determined, Yeah, she was more determined, and she
prepared for a second dinner party. Why does she have
to a dinner party because she likes to create triala
and she wants attention.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
And.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Why she wanted to kill him anyway, But we might dinner.
It's like it's got to be a show. So either
that Friday night second in a party. Again, the guests
were told what she was planning, and again after everyone left,
she drugged Joe with the racinal and then she injected
him with two big dozes of her right. So she
(31:22):
thought that she'd given him a lethal dose, but he
was still alive the next morning. He obviously wasn't well.
He was in bed all day, and then he was
still alive on the Sunday morning as well. So basically
she'd given her on the Friday night.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
By the Sunday, it was suffering like he was basically
dying for two days. And then.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
There's like she knew he was dying from the overdose
and she just indreended about it.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
She just stood by and watched like she's just dontending
about it.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
I mean, it's one thing that kills somebody about to
watch them actually suffer, That's that's evil.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
So on the Sunday, she called her friend and pat
she told her friend that she had given to an
overdose and the friend said, we'll call an ambulance.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
And and you said that she couldn't. I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
The friend told her she was a selfish bitch and
that she couldn't take someone's life. And she saw, assuming
this friend wasn't at this, this must be a different friend.
And she tried to convince Annie to call an ambulance,
saying if you do, like, if you do call an
angulant ambulance, yeah, you're gonna have an angry boyfriend on
your hands. But if you don't, you're gonna have a
(32:28):
murder charge. So Annie she gave it, and she called
an ambulance. Friend, I'm like, hang up bartphone, Yeah I.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Haven't done it.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
And when when the operator answered the emergency call and
calmly said could I get an ambulance please? I have
a person potentially overdosed on heroin and that the operator was.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Like, what do you mean potentially overdosed?
Speaker 2 (32:52):
And Annie said, well, he's vomitting everywhere, like blood stuff,
and then she gave the wrong address and the wrong name.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
She called herself Olivia and gave the wrong address, So
what was what was the point?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
So for the rest of the call, she was like
hysterical one minute and then proclaiming her love for Joe,
and then the next she was like calm, and she was.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Refusing to answer any of the questions.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
So I'm assuming that the emergent's services must have either
traced the call to find their dress or a mentally
she gave them the right one, because the paramedics, yeah, they.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Did turn up. Joe was lying naked and unconscious on
the floor in the bedroom.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
There was a lot of brown liquid coming out of
his mouth, so they had trouble getting past that to
get like a line in his lungs. So Annie was
quite frantic, and she was pacing back and forth from
the window to the door, and she grabbed one of
the paramedic's arms and said he had he had a
lot last night, and then started pacing again.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
So she's obviously still break out him. That's overdosel.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
So despite the valiant of the emergency services, Joe died
that afternoon, and the official cause.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Of death was a fix as fixation.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Anna was taking the polaystation for questioning, so she told
him that her and Joe had a suicide pact. So
obviously she was asked what I shouldn't go through with
it herself. Then she never really asked that question because
she didn't have an answer.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
For it, because I don't know. She was never a picture,
was ever intended on taking her own life.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
That's why I don't. That's why I was kind of confused,
because I was like, well, was she ever? Was she
ever going to be planning on taking her own life?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
But I don't. I don't think she was.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
I mean, but it did say earlier that she was suicidal.
Maybe she was, I don't know, but I don't. I
think she was just intendal taking those because she.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Knew he was leaving, and I think that that was
just the plan, was just to get rid of him.
And like, look, the fact I have.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
So Anna's claims that Joe overdose on heroin was quickly
ruled out, and she was chargeways murder that day, So
I just.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Didn't even believe her first split side.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
So as the investigation continued, the police actually realized that
there could have been someone else involved.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
In Joe's death.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Annie's friend my Daddy Row had an involvement in the
preparation of the crime. She'd actually gone to the library
where Annie and helped her look up how to inject
heroin and the other people she had been involved with
purchasing the hit now and her main involvement, her main involvement.
She was the one that actually organized the parties. She
(35:37):
was the one who invited everyone, so she knew exactly
what was going on. What why are you getting involved?
Speaker 1 (35:44):
God? Why are you thinking that your friend is you
were doing such a good thing. It's not a good idea.
It's awful. You would not help your friend.
Speaker 4 (35:53):
Sorry, I wouldn't like No matter how good my friend
was I was friends with, I would be like saying.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Are you really like?
Speaker 2 (35:59):
No? So, in following the investigation, it was determined that
there was sufficient evidence to charge both Anna and Madadi
with murder. The initials stood trial together in October nineteen
ninety eight, but after four weeks due to a technical
Due to a legal technicality, the joint trial was abandoned,
so each woman faced a separate trial and they both
(36:22):
exercised their rights to a trial by judge only.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Judge.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
So Anna chose not to give evidence in her trial,
I meaning the court wouldn't even hear her version of events,
which would have thought.
Speaker 4 (36:37):
That what we would have wanted to well, if she
was that Adam and that it was a suicide pact,
that he came out of suicide, then yeah, you'd think
she'd want to try and defend herself on that and
make them.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Believe that that was the case. Them not correlate, you know.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
So the state of Anna's mental health at the time
of Joe's death dominated the trial to what extent, like
to what extended a player heart in the tragic events
in the twenty sixth of October ninety nine.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Seven, you're right over there, Sorry, just a dog again.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
The crown case against Annie was that her acts were
deliberate acts of murder, They were premeditated and cold blooded,
and that she had made a long and.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Detailed plan with the view to bringing about the death
of her partner. But when it came to the motive
that just wasn't obvious.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
The most they could point to was that Anne thought
in some way that she had been made ill by
the advice of Joe to take the ipocac, And according
to a Crown psychiatrist, when you start, when you started
analyzing the alleged motive, it fed completely.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
And utterly into the notion that she was mentally unwell.
Should sound like it.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
According to Paul Mullen, a forensic psychiatrist, in his view,
there was no doubt that Annie had a significant mental
disorder which had been troubling her on and off for
a number of years, and that's why they went for
diminished responsibility. He said, yes, this woman planned and carried
out a murder, and yes she told other people that
(38:10):
she was going to kill this man, so there was very.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Clearly a knowledge of what she was doing.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
But the diminished responsibility simply says that the nature of
this disorder was one which affects her judgment and affected
other aspects of her mental functions. So the judge accepted
that the defense had established that at all relevant times,
Ann who was suffering from abnormal abnormality of the mind,
(38:38):
and found that she was suffering from a borderline personality
disorder of an at least moderate, if not greater extent,
that she was suffering from depression. She had an eating disorder,
and all of those things meant in his judgment that
her responsibility were her actions were very substantially substantially diminished.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
A lot of hard words there were done. Sorry.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
As well as trying to establish an state mental state
at the time of the killing, the court also faced
another question just how it was this tragedy allowed to
happen in the first place. Quite a few of the
law students from the Australian National University came through the
witness box and told him they'd been invited to the
parties and it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
A secret that a crime was going to be committed.
These people were questioned time and time again why didn't
you do anything? And not one of them gave a
satisfactory answer.
Speaker 4 (39:35):
Well, I mean like, why why did you allow that
to happen? Even if even if you didn't really believe it?
Why why why didn't you say something?
Speaker 2 (39:43):
That's what really you couldn't You could could have even
said it to Joe. You could have said, Luke, you're
missus be a bit weird. She's saying these things, you.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Know, just to kind of watch your back that you know,
that's really bad. Actually, I never even thought of that
why didn't Why would one of these people.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
You know, I don't know if she's just creating a
drama as usually trying to get attention, but this is
what she's saying exactly, Yeah, totally. And then it might
have given them a chance to be maybe more wary
of what she was doing, Like you know, if she
offered him a coffee, maybe not take the coffee.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Yea, or just like just be more aware or whatever.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
I mean, Bay would have left her maybe rather than
you know, right, okay, right, this is the time, because
there was always a planning it anyway, right, I'm out
here exactly.
Speaker 4 (40:28):
I mean, you know, they could have given him a chance.
I mean it might not have stopped it, but it
could have given him a chance. Yeah, So why did
nobody say them.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
It's baffling, it really is. Because if somebody was like saying,
if I had a part if my partner was plotting
to kill me, and and.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
One of the one of his friends could have said
m M, why Yeah, It's just it's it's really baffling.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
How so many people I don't know how many people
it was, but it was obviously.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
A few knew about it, and just not one live
with that on their constry. So they could have made
a difference. Yeah, I mean they might not have, but
they could have could have by just speaking up. And
even if it was to fantasy, you know, and she
was just making up her head, so what just advoice it?
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah, I would. I mean if somebody told me that
they were going to.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Kill their their partner, they told me this, I would
say something because I would just like write my beload
of bullshit and just giving you the heads up.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
Yeah, exactly, because you know what people.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
Are like, you couple make up things and say things
and exaggerate things and stuff or something.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Even if I didn't believe it, I think I would
have to. It's such a serious thing to talk about it.
I'd be like, oh, yeah, what your missus has said,
you know, even if sing in a jokey sort of
way you're saying it, you know. I just I just
don't understand why these people could.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
It's very strange go along with it and think that
it was okay and and and think that was normal.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
And that's the thing. It's not even just one person.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
It's like a few different people have of all these
people but thinking the same the same way.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
I meant to be lawyers and stuff. I meant to
be intelligent people, clearly, I mean to be fair. You
could be the most intelligent person, I still have no
common sense. Well, yes, exactly, and tells that people still
do stupid downs. Well exactly. So it was heard in
court that I don't know so well. It was heard
in the court though that I know at one time. Sorry, right,
(42:24):
it was herding the court, and.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
It was heard in the court though that I at
one time told people that quote wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Be hard to convince someone that you're crazy, end quote.
So was she really mentally ill?
Speaker 2 (42:42):
She claimed that she had a good knowledge of psychiatry psychiatry,
and that she had a good knowledge of the law,
and that if she had wanted to, it wouldn't be
hard to be convinced somebody that she was insane.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
So it's weird that she said that in the past.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Also, when evidence has been heard in the court, she
would put her head in her hands and her shoulders
would shake as if she was crying. Like she put
her face in her Yeah, she would cover her face
and her shoulders would.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Be shaken as if she was crying.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
But then she would she was noticed like peeking out
from her fingers and looking about like to see if
people were watching her.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Like that, she would be the same of attention. Yeah,
so but then what I still I don't get why
you would like.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Murder something for attention or you know, because you've ruined her, like.
Speaker 4 (43:32):
You've ruined their life, his family's life, you've ruined your
own life because you're gonna work prisoner for it.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Yeah for what a bit of drama and a bit
of attention.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
But maybe that sort of part of the mental illness,
you know, And she was really mentally ill though, Yeah,
but I was saying, like she's saying that she could
convince people she was mentally ill. But if saying that
could be part of the mental illness, you know, when
it comes to illnesses, Yeah, exactly, you just can't understand it,
can you know. So On the twenty third of April
(44:03):
nineteen ninety nine, Anew was found guilty of manslaughter on
the grounds of diminished responsibility. She got a sentence of
ten years with a non parole period of four years.
So given the time that she had already spent behind bars,
she said she almost served eighteen months after that after
the after the trial, so she murdered Joe in nineteen
(44:24):
ninety seven. She was released in two thousand and one.
So altogether she almost said four years. So that was
like the minimum was the four years, and that's all
she said.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
That's oh, you know what I'm like about seven sies.
Speaker 4 (44:35):
That's that's a pathetic ethic, even on to minish responsibility manslaughter.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
I just because she was saying us ten years, it
was just the minimum was four. She should have said
the ten years or at least eight years, like closer
to ten anyway.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Definitely closer to ten than than just four.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Yeah, and Madadi Row remember the one that helped aren't
she was acquitted. The judge said that there was nothing
that could act the pinpoint me David in the room
when Annie gave Joe the fatal injection that killed him,
So she would she helped plan a murder and just
because she wasn't there when it actually happened.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
But I thought, is that I don't know if that's.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
Changing, but isn't it even if you don't physically murder someone,
there has been cases where if you're an accomplice in
some way, you're still being charged with murder.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
I'm sure we've done a couple of cases. Obviously not
in necessary case, not in that case.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
But yeah, but that's yeah, she should have been charged
with something. Oh yeah, exactly, Well was it aid and better? Well,
maybe there just wasn't the evidence to prove that.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
I mean, maybe that was here said that.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Maybe that was just that she actually went to and
to the library where I mean she could have went
to the library where that doesn't mean to say that
she helped her.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Well, that's true, So maybe there just wasn't the evidence
to do it. Obviously not so.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Joe's friend Robert He said that Joe's family just feels
totally betrayed by the justice system in Australia and that
there's nowhere near what they would call adequate justice for what.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
I don't know she had, like a mental facility in
hospital or I never never actually said, so, I don't know.
I just because it doesn't really sound like she's got
much of a punishment. I mean when she was in prison.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
She completed her a PhD in prison, and in twenty
sixteen she published her thesis on Australian film female Criminals.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Oh when did she make money from that? That she
doesn't know, so as she's just living her life normally
now is four years.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
That's absolutely horrendous for what she did, so she should
have got a lot more than that she planned it, so.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
As I was saying, like at the start, it wasn't
it was never clear whether she at any point she
did actually it was sped suicide packed. I know that
Joe never knew about it. Yeah, so on his side,
yeah it was murder. But you know, with her, I
don't know if she ever intended on taking her own life.
It was just never never. I don't know. That's awful,
(47:02):
absolutely awful. I'm not happy with that one. No, I
just thought that that's like pure Joey. There was just
no yeah, no justice there, like definitely not.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
So thank you for listening, yep, thanks for listening to
our Patreon episode.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Yes, and we will be back in a couple of weeks. Yeah,
so opposite you.
Speaker 4 (47:28):
You know, I want to keep listening, keep listening, subscribe, rating, review,
That's what I want to say.
Popular Podcasts
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.