The Bankers Daughter

This is the case of the kidnapping and murder of 12 year old Marion Parker.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello, I'm welcome to Crime divers I'm Laura and I'm Jill.
I'm welcome to today's Petreon episode.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hello everybody, thanks for joining us.

Speaker 1 (00:14):
So before we get into we just got a little
shout out to do.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Yes, we would like.

Speaker 3 (00:19):
To say thank you very much to Krista for.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Joining our Patreon. She joined about a month ago.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
But we haven't had a chance to say and to
you know, because obviously the main show is on a
break at the moment, So christa thank you and we
will give your shout out on the main show, but
for now, we just want to let you know that was.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
You know, we know you're here. We want to thank you.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
You know, we appreciate the fact that you're giving your support,
and thanks obviously to everybody else as well for their
continued support.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, absolutely appreciate it very much.

Speaker 3 (00:50):
Yes, So we are for the first time, no sorry,
the second time in four years, we.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
Are recording remotely, so Laura's in her high so we're
not used to this. This is a different.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
Platform to what we recorded on the last time that
we did it remotely, because it wasn't that great the
last one, So we're hoping this one's a little bit
better and we're just gonna.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
Yes, it would be handier sometimes when we just can't
be in the same room, so it definitely helps. So
it goes well, then we know that we can maybe
do it.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, so hopefully we'll see how start it goes.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
So sorry, we can still see each other.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
We can still see each other. But what was that
just in there about the main show? Oh yeah, we
will be back soon to the main show. But obviously
we always keep our pature on episodes as normal. So
you've got this episode and then we'll still have the
mysterious one for our members of the higher tier that'll
be coming soon as well.

Speaker 4 (01:59):
So Laura, without further ado, shall we yeh?

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Shall we just get on with it?

Speaker 4 (02:04):
We shall?

Speaker 2 (02:05):
So where in the world are they? We are in
the USA?

Speaker 4 (02:10):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (02:10):
And the title the Banker's Daughter, the Banker's Daughter.

Speaker 4 (02:16):
Okay, okay, shall we dive in.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
Let's dive in.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
So today I'm going to tell you about the kidnap
and murder of twelve year old Marion Parker. So this
is a child Okay. So for everybody who doesn't feel
they can listen to this, then this would be the
time to leave.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
But no problems. If you can't feel you can't listen
to it, we'll see next time.

Speaker 4 (02:39):
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
This was described by the Los Angeles Times as the
most horrible crime of the nineteen twenties, and at the
time was considered the most horrific crime in the history
of California.

Speaker 4 (02:56):
Body ever, sounds pretty bad then.

Speaker 3 (02:58):
Yeah, because this was an older this is an older case.
You know, it was a bit harder to research, you know,
just with different sources saying different things. So obviously I've
tried my hardest to get it is accurate as possible accurate.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
So, well, the first one is her name Marion Francis Parker,
but in one source she was Francis Marion Parker, but
the majority of the sources call her Marion.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
So that's what we're going to go with.

Speaker 4 (03:28):
That's what we're going with.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
It's okay, Yeah, So Maria Parker was born on the
eleventh of October nineteen fifteen.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
Her parents were Geraldine and Perry.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
She had a twin sister called Marjorie Helen and an
older brother called Perry Junior, who was eight years older,
and they lived in La So Mary and Marion and
Marjorie they weren't identical twins, but they.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
Looked very like they were, like, you know, they looked
like sisters.

Speaker 3 (03:54):
You could tell they were, yeah, sisters, they just weren't identical.
Marian was a bit of humble and Marjorie was more
of a girly girl. So dad Perry, he worked at
the National Trust in Savan's Bank. He was a manager
there and he had worked there for twenty years. Mum Geraldine,
she was a stay at home mum. Marian was really

(04:15):
close to her dad Perry, and sometimes she even went
to work with William because she she's got to be
with them all the time.

Speaker 4 (04:23):
Oh, that's ite.

Speaker 3 (04:25):
So their big brother, Perry, he loved his little sisters
and he had like a lot of time for them.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
So it sounds like they were like a close family, definitely.

Speaker 3 (04:35):
So on the fifteenth of December nineteen twenty seven, Marion
and Marjorie went to school as usual. So they were
in the sixth grade at Mount Vernon Junior High School,
which was located in the Lafayette Square section of Los Angeles.
So at about twelve o'clock, a man entered the building
and approached the registrar. So she was a lady called

(04:57):
Mary Hope. So he told Mary that his name was
mister Cooper and that Perry Parker in the bank. Perry
had been a per accident and was asking for his daughter,
so he was here to pick his daughter up. So
Mary Hall was like, well, which one, because he has

(05:21):
two daughters. Yeah, so mister Cooper replied, the younger one, so.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Exactly, they're twins.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
So she she had said that, but they're twins, and
he replied, oh, of course, I meant the smaller one.
So obviously he had no idea that there was two
daughters down by twins.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
He obviously didn't know their names either, because he.

Speaker 3 (05:51):
Had he had just said that he was there to
pick up the Parker girl, so he obviously didn't even
know their names. So and like, if Perry had been
in an accident and was asking for his daughter, why
wouldn't be asking for both of them? Why would he
only be asking for one daughter? You know, Mary was well,

(06:17):
Mary Hope, she was kind of a bit hesitant. That's
like red flags all over her, you would think.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
But so mister Cooper said, look, why don't you call the.

Speaker 3 (06:32):
Bank and they can confirm what's going on. They can
confirm that Perry's had an accident. They can confirm that
his co worker. You know, that's all legit.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
But for some reason, Mary didn't do that. And she
later said that.

Speaker 3 (06:49):
Because she had told her to phone the bank, then
she thought that he must have been legit because if
he wasn't, why would he risk I mean, he basically
calling her bluff. But yeah, and you know, she was like,
if he's telling me to phone the banks, then it
must be legit because as.

Speaker 4 (07:12):
It was now nowadays, I mean, that would just never
ever happen.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
Like you know, like it's so tight it's at school,
is that you know you have you have to you have.

Speaker 4 (07:20):
To actually be like a named person.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
I think if there was like somebody that is it named,
then you would have to phone the school like yourself, yeah,
and say and so it's coming to pick up my child.

Speaker 4 (07:34):
Today they're not normally the ones that pick up but
this is what I mean.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
Even even when in nursery, I remember, like my daughters,
you had to like if somebody was different was kind
to pick them up, you had to kind of give
the nursery like a little password and then you'd tell
the password so that they could confirm that they were
obvious saying the right person.

Speaker 4 (07:55):
To come and pick them up. But I just, I mean,
I know things were all this.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
A lot different, you know way back when that baffles
me that she would still off that information that he's
given her, she would well actually let the child go.

Speaker 3 (08:12):
I think the cases like this is probably the reason
why we do have such strict well exactly, yeah, because
that's to think that some.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
Random person can just could just go into the school
and not even give a accurate description or like name
or whatever, and still be allowed to walk out with
a child.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
It's mad, So Mary Hope. She also said later.

Speaker 3 (08:44):
Quote she said she said she would quote never have
let Marion go but for their parents sincerity and disarming
manner of the man and quote so he basically charmed her.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
He was so charming.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yeah, you can be charming as you like, but I
mean still like I mean, but then, did I suppose Mary,
did she just assume that there was somebody that worked
with her dad, and she was thinking that her dad
was an accident.

Speaker 2 (09:09):
So she didn't like this man or whatever. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (09:14):
Twelve fifteen, Marian was taken out of class where they.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
Were having a Christmas party.

Speaker 3 (09:19):
Is because she was a smaller one of the twins,
because obviously he didn't know which one was, which she
didn't know there was two of them. Like, I'm so
still easy because you still think that it would be
like both the kids that he would want.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
Why would he want specifically, let's just see one daughter.
I mean, what is he all these kids if he'd
been in an accident.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (09:40):
Yeah, So she was taken out of class and she
was told that she had to go with mister Cooper
because her dad was asking for her as he's had
an accident. So she went with him, probably not questioning
anything because she was probably just that worried about her
dad that she probably just didn't think that, you know, old.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
Ship my dad. I mean, if something's happened to.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
Your dady's wearing an accident, all you're gonna think about
is getting to him.

Speaker 4 (10:02):
It's probably again, you know, like back in those days,
I mean you.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
Know now now nowadays, you know, you would tell your
kids like you don't go in with strangers, like if
you don't know the person, you don't wear them, blah blah.
But I think back in the day, maybe you know,
people would be like, oh, that's like my friend mister Cooper,
for instance, and you maybe like the kids just like, oh, yeah,
it's probably just one of my mom and dad's friends,
Like you know, they're just so much more trust than
of people.

Speaker 4 (10:27):
Clearly didn't, which.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
So she was worried.

Speaker 3 (10:34):
And why wouldn't she believe that that the coworker it
came to get them? But I mean that it is
thinking about it now, it is ridiculous, But at the time,
obviously they didn't think it was so ridiculous. And this
was a twelve year old, you know what I mean,
Like he she was always the paniking. So at the
end of the school day, Marjorie waited outside the building

(10:55):
for Marian as they always went. They always got the
street car home together as far as I can see, a.

Speaker 2 (11:01):
Straight car is what we would call a tram.

Speaker 3 (11:04):
Yeah, and waited, and of course no marrying appeared, so
she set off for home herself. So I can't believe
that nobody at the school told her that her dad
had been in an accident and that her sister would
gone to him.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
But that just makes no sense whatsoever. I mean, like,
you know, one a random person to come to school.
He obviously hasn't realized that there's twins, so's asking for one.
And then you would think that the school secretary whatever,
you know, we'd be like, right, well, we'll be informed
the other child at least so that she or he
knows what's going on.

Speaker 4 (11:37):
I mean, what is school playing?

Speaker 3 (11:40):
Yeah, I mean, and I thought as well, well, why
wouldn't you tell a child that their parent has been
in an accident?

Speaker 2 (11:48):
For a start, but for another.

Speaker 3 (11:50):
Thing, like, we do not be We do not think
to maybe call home, called the bank, called somewhere to say, look,
one of your children gone to him, what shall we
do with your other child? You know, she is there
going to be somebody at home for when, or somebody
else going to come and.

Speaker 2 (12:07):
Pick her up?

Speaker 3 (12:08):
Like surely they would think what we're going to do
with her? But no nobody even bothered to tell her.
So this kid hadn't been informed, which is absolutely ridiculous.
I just don't get that at all. So anyway, and.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
All times are obviously different back then, but it's almost
almost like they didn't really care that much to tell you,
Like she wasn't important enough to be bothered.

Speaker 4 (12:32):
I mean, as you said them, there could have been.

Speaker 1 (12:34):
Nobody at home as well, because if her mum and
maybe brother were also at the hospital.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, that's what somebody going to be at home for
her coming in.

Speaker 3 (12:43):
And I don't and this part of it, I really
don't see why you should blame that on the time.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
So I mean, like the times were different, Times may
be different.

Speaker 3 (12:53):
But and what time do you not tell a child
that her father has been in an accident and her
and her sister's gone term. I'm like, and at what
time would you not want to know what to do
with that child? Like should she go home? Should she
go to the hospitals? You know, I don't think times
will change that much. Was something doing any time?

Speaker 2 (13:14):
That's it?

Speaker 1 (13:14):
I mean, like to me, like, if you have either
their twins or just brother and sister or sisters. You know,
if you have like one in one sibling at the school,
then surely, without even questioning that both should have been
pulled out the class. Then both should be told, even
even if they were sparring, they should never have been

(13:36):
let go of this. Of course, she married should never
have been let to go this guy anyway, but you
know you would pull them both out because that's.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
Yeah, they're just badness.

Speaker 3 (13:47):
Yeah, So Maryon got home and both our parents were there.
So yes, both our parents were there, because you gathered
Perry didn't have an accident, so he in fact hadn't
even been at work that day. So I read two
different accounts of why I hadn't been at work that day.
So one was that it was his wife, his wife's

(14:09):
fortieth birthday, so he'd taken the day off to spend
the day with her. And the other account was that
it was actually his forty eighth birthday, so he was
taking the day off because it was his birthday.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
So what I mean, it was.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
Somebody's birthday apparently, and he didn't go to work, so
they were both at home.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
So the school had maybe we just phoned home just
to see what's the worst that would have happened that
nobody would.

Speaker 3 (14:34):
Answered, So they're doing like okay anyway, So Marjorie told
them that Marion hadn't appeared after school, so they thought, well,
maybe she stayed behind to help the teacher clean up,
because she had done that in the past.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
But what you know, but she.

Speaker 3 (14:53):
Would usually tell them, I mean, she would usually say
I woud assume usually say Marjorie, look, I'm going to
stay behind. They weren't too worried. They were kind of
like a bit unusual, but they weren't too worried. But
by quarter to five, Perry decided to call the school
if she was still there, because by this point they
were starting to get worried. So the registrar, Mary Hope Hoped.

(15:18):
She answered, and when she realized who was like who
it was that was born? And she was like, oh,
you know, mister Parker, how are you feeling? And he
was like, what, I'm just born looking for.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
My daughter, Like what do you mean? And may you know?

Speaker 3 (15:35):
Mary said, no, Marian's not at school because she's I
sent her on that afternoon because like with the man
that you sent to pick her up after you an accident.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
And of course he was like, what the fuck? What man?
What accident? Like what's going on?

Speaker 3 (15:52):
So obviously she explained him and he reassured her that
there had been no accident.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
He hadn't sent anyone to pick his daughter, and.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
Is far as he had been aware that she had
been at school all day, you know, and he had
expected her home with Marjorie after school. So this is
he hung up the phone. Someone knocked at the door.
We went to answer it. And it was a messenger
from Western Union with a telegram and it was addressed

(16:20):
to Perry and it said, quote do positively nothing until
you receive a special delivery letter.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
So okay.

Speaker 3 (16:32):
So again, this is one thing that I'm not sure
about is when the police were informed. Because this telegram
I told him not getting in so I did read that.
He you know, I mean, he must have associated that
with what was going on with Marion, and he didn't.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
He didn't call the police and they waited for the letter.

Speaker 3 (16:52):
So apparently another letter arrived shortly after and it said
quote Mary in secure used good judgment. Interference with my
plans dangerous and it was signed George Fox.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
So I mean, obviously the police were called. I'm not
sure when.

Speaker 3 (17:12):
Some sources say that he called before the first telegram,
some say it was after the second, some say it
was the following day, okay.

Speaker 2 (17:20):
But the police were called.

Speaker 3 (17:21):
At some point obviously, so they didn't do anything for
the rest of that day because there were obviously waiting.
I mean, I mean, I don't know, well, I don't know.
I don't know if the police were doing enter at
this point because I don't know if the police had
been called so they waited the following day. Can you
imagine like that night, not being able to do anything
because somebody has your daughter, Like exactly.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
I always say the first few hours of somebody going
missing is the most crucial.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, this is the twenties.

Speaker 3 (17:53):
So so a third telegram telegram came the following day
and at the top was written death.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
And it said P M. Parker. That's Perry.

Speaker 3 (18:06):
His bird name is Mary. And so it's like Perry
Marion Parker. So BM Parker, youse, God, gooid judgment.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
You are the loser.

Speaker 3 (18:14):
Do this Secure seventy five twenty dollars gold certificates US
currency fifteen hundred dollars at once, keeps them on your person.
Go about your daily business as usual. Leave out police
and detectives. Make no public notice, keep this affair private,
make no search. With filling out these terms, with the

(18:37):
transfer of the currency will secure the return of the girl.
Failure to comply with these requests means no one will
ever see the girl again.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
Accept the angels in heaven.

Speaker 3 (18:49):
The affair must end one way or the other within
three days seventy two hours. You will receive further notice,
but the terms remain the same. Then underneath that it
said fate in capital letters, and then it said as
it's sort of as if it was an afterthought. It
said if you want aid against me, ask God, not man.

(19:10):
And it was signed the Fox. Cand remember it was
called George Box, so he was signed the Fox, right, okay.
And then there was also a message in Marian's handwrite
in and that said quote, Daddy, please do what this
man tells you, or he'll kill me if you don't,
Your loving daughter Marion Parker. So when Perry showed the

(19:35):
ransom note to the police, they were surprised at how
little that they were demanding, because fifteen hundred dollars in
nineteen this was a nineteen thirty seven, but that today
that would be about twenty seven thousand dollars, which, yeah,
that's a lot of money, but in terms of our
ransom dollars, isn't that much in terms of our ransom, no,

(19:57):
definitely not.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
If you're asking for money for a.

Speaker 3 (19:59):
Child, you should be ask for a lot more than
twenty seven thousand, No, exactly, you think so, Yeah, So
they were they were kind of like a bit kind
of confused with that, like why is it so little?
And the way that he'd asked for as well, you
know what being in.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
The gold certificates. It was unusual.

Speaker 3 (20:19):
Because in this in this time in nineteen twenties, there
was a lot of kidnappings going on, so they obviously
must have been used to them asking for a.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
Hell of a lot more money than that.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yeah, So Perny, he had no choice but to go
to work that day because the kidnapper and said, go
about your your business. Your business is usual, and he
just wanted to do obviously whatever he could to get
his daughter back. So as we know, he worked in
the bank, so it might it would have been easy
enough for him to get the money from his account

(20:49):
now any questions being asked.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
He copied down.

Speaker 3 (20:53):
The serial numbers of all the notes, so the hope
because he was just thinking, right, if I just do
what they that what the kidnapper says, get my daughter back,
then the police came concent on gettinghim afterwards, you know,
traveling down with the serial numbers on the notes. So
the police spent the day sort of quietly interviewing the

(21:15):
staff at school, especially Mary Hole and Marion's friends as well.
Mary gave them a description of the mister Cooper who
took Mary in. She said he was a white man
between twenty five and thirty, about five foot eight, one
hundred and fifty pounds, and he wore a heavy grayish
brown overcoat, black shoes, and a dark hat. So when

(21:36):
Perry got home from work that evening, the kidnapper actually
called Penny this time, I said her telegram, and he
told him that he was to deliver the money to
tenth Street and Grammary Grammarcy place.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
He should drive.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
There, go it alone, and to not alert the place.
So Perry did as he was told. He didn't tell
the police that he was gone, did the exchange, just
got in his car and roll because again he was
just I want my daughter back.

Speaker 4 (22:04):
He just wants his daughter back at the end of
the day.

Speaker 3 (22:07):
Yeah, So he did exactly as he was told. So
he got in his car and he dropped to the location.
But when he got there, he sat and he waited
for hours and no one appeared. So it was nearly
midnight when he decided, right, okay, something's obviously gone wrong,
and he and he drove home. That's when he realized

(22:28):
that the police had been sitting out his outside his
house the whole time since the ransom. No, so when
they saw Perry leave in they followed him. So he
alerted the place.

Speaker 2 (22:38):
He thought he was going alone.

Speaker 3 (22:40):
He followed them. So the kidnapper must have seen that
Perry wasn't alone. He saw that the police had followed him,
so he and he saw the place and just fled.
So so he also found out that the press had
been alerted. This was supposed to be all hush hushed
to keep marrying his safe as possible. This was all

(23:01):
the things that the kidnapper said, No, don't alert the press,
don't you know, don't tell the police.

Speaker 2 (23:08):
Perry was doing everything right.

Speaker 4 (23:11):
But the police were just.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
Their job as well.

Speaker 3 (23:17):
So yeah, I mean like the police were supposed to
be discreete the press weren't supposed to know, and Perry
was just to hand over the money and get his
daughter back, you know. So on the following day, Mary's
kidnapper was front page news.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
It was all over the newspaper. See, as you can imagine,
this pissed the kidnapper off.

Speaker 3 (23:35):
Yeah, so another telegram arrived at the Parker House and
it said, when I asked you over the phone to
give me your word of honor as a Christian and
honest businessman, you didn't answer why, because those two cars
carefully followed your car north on Wilton to Tenth and
stopped shortly off Wilton and proceeded to circle the block.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
On Grammar.

Speaker 3 (23:58):
Say, mister part I'm ashamed of you. You will never
know how you disappointed your daughter. He was so eager
to know that it would only be a short while
before she would be free from my terrible torture. Then
you missed the whole damn affair. And at the end
of it there was a note from mary And saying, please, Daddy,
I want to come home this morning. This is your

(24:19):
last chance. Be sure to come. Be sure and come
by yourself, or you won't see me again.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
Marian.

Speaker 3 (24:25):
So another telegram said that they would give Perry one
more chance, and it said pray to God for forgiveness
for your mistake last night. And at the end there
was another note from mary And saying, I wish I
could come home. I think I'll die if I have
to be like this for much longer. Won't someone please
tell me why this had to happen to me. Daddy,

(24:47):
please do what this man tells you, or he'll kill me.
If you don't please daddy, I want to come home tonight.
They didn't hear from the kidnapperr again until the next morning,
so this was the.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
Seventeenth of the SAI.

Speaker 3 (25:01):
Two days after Marian was taken, a telegram arrived and
it said, quote, please recover your senses rather than to
kill your child, but so far you have given.

Speaker 2 (25:11):
Me no other alternative.

Speaker 3 (25:13):
Of course you want your child, but you'll never get
her by notifying the police and causing all this publicity.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
I feel, however, that you search.

Speaker 3 (25:21):
You started to search before you received my warning, so
I'm not blaming you for the bad beginning. They warned
Perry to dismiss all authorities before it's too late, and
again told him that Marion would die if the ransom
wasn't met.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
He knows that the police have been informed already. I mean,
there's not much that Perry's got to be able to
do to tell them not to be involved in him.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
Were well his.

Speaker 3 (25:44):
Daughters miss Goodness, but he's maybe thinking he can give
them the slip or something.

Speaker 2 (25:51):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (25:53):
The end of the telegram said quote, be sensible and
use good judgment. You can't deal with a mass her
mind like a common crooker kidnapper.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
So basically he's called himself a mastermind.

Speaker 3 (26:06):
So then then there was a final letter explaining why
I was calling himself miss George Fox.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
It was because he was very sly like a fox. Like,
how imagine it? Have? You know?

Speaker 3 (26:17):
This guy's called himself a mastermind and that's the best
alias that he can come up.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
With, very sly like a fox.

Speaker 3 (26:23):
So he worned Perry to set no traps and if
his demands were met, he would handle the situation, the
situation with a Gillette razorblade. Sorry, that evening, the kidnapper
called Perry and told him the new location for the
exchange was the corner of West fifth Street and South
Manhattan Place in Central Los Angeles. He said he would

(26:46):
call back to tell him when. So at seven fifteen pm,
the kidnapper called and Tom told Perry to leave immediately
and that he would recognize Perry's cash was to go
there and just.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
Sit and wait.

Speaker 3 (26:59):
So Perry arrived at the location at about eight pm
and just moments later a Chrysler coop Is it a
Chrysler coopy or cook? I don't know how to pronounce
that it's a car. I would say coopy, well coop,
but I've seen it pronounces cooks. An American pronunces cook,
so maybe they pronounce it different. But I would say
a movie, it doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
It was a car, a car paill Der exactly where
you go.

Speaker 3 (27:25):
The driver had a hat on and he had his
face covered with a bandana, and he was pointing a
sawn off shotgun at Perry's face. Perry said he had
the money, but he wanted to see Marian first, so
the kidnappers moved out of the way so that Perry
could see Marion. In the passengers scene, he wrapped the

(27:47):
blanket and she looked a bit dazed, like maybe she'd
been drugged or something.

Speaker 4 (27:51):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (27:52):
So but then the driver told him that she was
just sleeping, but her eyes were open, so I don't
know why it was.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
He said that she was sleeping, but she just looked
a bit off anyway.

Speaker 3 (28:01):
So now he's seen that he's seen Marion, so he
was like right handed over the money. The kidnapper, you know,
checked all the money was there, and then he drove
sort of drove off a little bit forward and then
he opened the passenger door shouted Marion, like out onto
the road and then just and sped off. So Perry
jumped out his car and ran to Marian. He picked

(28:23):
her up and sort of cradled her, but then he
realized that she felt a bit light, so he laid
her down and opened to the blankets that she was rapting,
and to his horror, he saw that Marian's arms had
been severed just below the elbow and her legs were missing.

Speaker 5 (28:43):
Oh my god, so obviously she was you know, she
was dead. So what so that's t's like because obviously first,
but second he's.

Speaker 4 (28:54):
Obviously, oh my god, I've.

Speaker 6 (28:55):
Got her back and by and then to find that horror,
that's that's that's that's that's that's two.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
So his screams alerted to other people and they.

Speaker 3 (29:10):
You know, obviously, people came running to see what was happening,
and and someone called the police. So Marian's body was
taken away and an autopsy was carried out that same night.
The corner revealed that Marian had been dead for about
twelve hours, So that means that she would have been
alive the night before m hmm, when the original exchange

(29:31):
was supposed to take place. So it does look like
the kidnapper was going to hand her over mm hmm.
But because the police followed and he found out and
then he killed her after that, which is awful because
her parents did nothing wrong. You know, her parents did
exactly what the kidnapper told them to do.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
But yeah, get to do their job. And then I mean,
he wanted them to get his starter back and.

Speaker 3 (30:07):
Then track him down after that, like he took the
ceial note, the.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
Serial numbers of the notes. You know, I don't know.
Just let the police do their job after that.

Speaker 3 (30:18):
But ilway think that that in any kidnap and then
getting the child back it should be the priority.

Speaker 1 (30:25):
But I said, I mean, Perry albously didn't tell the
place that that's what he was doing, so they didn't
probably initially know that they were following him to potentially
meet the guy either, So maybe Perry should have told them,
like this guy wants me to Meum, he doesn't want.

Speaker 4 (30:41):
Her follow me, so like, don't follow me, you.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
Know, I think they.

Speaker 3 (30:50):
Anyway, So so Marian's you know, obviously I told you
our arms and our legs had been cut off, she
had been disemboiled, and our lower stomach had been stuffed
with a towel and a man's shirt.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
So that's and that was to give the appearance of her.

Speaker 3 (31:07):
Been her body, you know what I mean, Like when
he saw so the towel had the Bellevue Arms Apartments
logo on it. So this genius, this mastermind, put a
towel with a logo on Yeah, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
So obviously we'll get back to that.

Speaker 3 (31:28):
So her eyes had been sown open with piano wires to.

Speaker 2 (31:34):
Make it look like she was alive. So that's why
her eyes were open.

Speaker 3 (31:37):
Because the killer had actually sewn her eyes open.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
Something on her.

Speaker 3 (31:43):
Face like makeup, you know, like powder or blush or
something like that, so that she didn't look so pale.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
So when.

Speaker 3 (31:52):
Perry looked at her, you said, she looked a bit off,
And that's exactly why, because she was actually dead when
he looked at her.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
And determined as strangulation. The following mar.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
Done all that afterwards, turning the after she's dead, then
what dimembered her?

Speaker 2 (32:14):
Yeah, well, I don't know, we'll get.

Speaker 4 (32:19):
To that, okay.

Speaker 3 (32:22):
So the following more, in the eighteenth of December, a
man was out for a walk and he saw a
couple of bundles of newspapers in a park, and he
opened them up to find a pair of arms and legs,
which were later confirmed to be Marian's. Of course, a
massive man manhunt was launched for Marion's killer, involving twenty
thousand police officers and American Legion volunteers. A fifty thousand

(32:45):
dollars reward was offered for information that would lead to
the rest of the killer, and it was soon raised
to one hundred thousand. In today's money, that'd be about
one point seven million. So like how much the reward
was compared to what the actual ransom was.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
Yeah, that just goes to show how little it was.
So on the twentieth of December, they found.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
The car that the killer red used to transport marie
instead body to her dad. It had been abandoned in
a car park a few miles away and was identified
as being stolen from San Diego.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
The car park attendant said what.

Speaker 4 (33:21):
I said?

Speaker 3 (33:21):
I said, Okay, do you know do you know what
the problem is here? It is because I'm using two
different laptops. I'm using one to we're using one to record,
and I'm using one to read from.

Speaker 2 (33:32):
So I'm not always looking at you.

Speaker 3 (33:33):
So I don't realize when you're about to talk, where
as usually I'm sitting in front of me and I'm
sort of looking over the laptop at you, so all
the time I'm not realizing that you're about to talk.

Speaker 4 (33:45):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (33:48):
Yeah, So the car park attendant said that a young
man had left it in the car there, and he
had said that he'd be back the following day, but
of course he had never returned. But the policeman did
match to take fingerprints from the car our door. So meanwhile,
as you can imagine, the public were terrified.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
Parents weren't letting their kids go to.

Speaker 3 (34:06):
School, they weren't like, you know, they weren't even letting
about the house because this man was still on the
loofs so he could have struck again.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
Well you think that the school might be a bit
more wise, saying the bloody let some random stranger go
and take their kids out of school.

Speaker 2 (34:20):
Well you would think.

Speaker 3 (34:21):
But if he was a mastermind as he claimed to be,
you know, he might somehow managed to do it again.
But and like even the Mexican the Mexican government shut
the boarder of the border between the states so that
the murder couldn't escape into Mexico, like apparently that never
happens or very rarely happens, mm hmm. But some people
they turned their fear into violence, and when they read

(34:43):
the man's description in the paper, if some like if
people saw a man who looked like that description and.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
They would just beat him up. There was like you know,
like lynch mobs and everything, and.

Speaker 3 (34:58):
Yeah, one guy I had been beaten so badly by
a lunch mob that the police took him into custoday
just to keep him safe, and he actually ended up
hanging himself. Like another man was arrested so many times
that he just asked to stay in the cells until
they could clear up him because.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
It was just like, right, I'm thinking of this just.

Speaker 4 (35:22):
Yeah, that's awful.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
Like the killer was just an order looking guy.

Speaker 3 (35:27):
I know, there was nothing extraordinary about I'm you know,
it's just now looking guy. So people will be thinking, oh,
he looks like that description of the murderer, like let's
take matters into her own hands, which absolutely.

Speaker 4 (35:41):
Are these people.

Speaker 1 (35:41):
That's stupid and that's sick that they must realize that
they might look similar, but there's every.

Speaker 7 (35:48):
Chance that's not actually him, Like we're that scared they
were that terrified that they were like just wanted to
get this man off the streets.

Speaker 2 (35:58):
And they're like, oh, he looks like I'm old. Beat
him up. I mean, it's ridiculous.

Speaker 3 (36:04):
So officers went to the Bellevue Arms apartments, as that
was the logo on the towel inside Marion's body, and
they searched the apartments. In one of the apartments there
was a man called Donald Evans.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
He was just lying in his bed pour officers told
him that they were there to search the apartments and
he was like okay, cool, you know, and you go.

Speaker 3 (36:27):
The officers didn't find anything suspicious, and as they left,
Donald said that he hoped.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
That they would soon catch the fiend.

Speaker 3 (36:34):
So soon after the results of the fingerprints were taken
that were taken from the car came back and they
matched a nineteen year old man called William Edward Hickman.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
So he was only nineteen.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
Car like he had identified him between twenty five and thirty,
but he was only nineteen.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
Like oh no, I mean, like I just think the
younger killer is the more.

Speaker 3 (37:02):
Not so the word like stocking, why it's more shocking,
because like, why is somebody so young doing stuff? Like
that they haven't seen much of life before.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
I don't know anyway.

Speaker 1 (37:15):
And the thing is, you're talking the nineteen twenties, so
you know there's not things like we have nowadays where
you can watch stuff online or even on TV or that.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
I mean, where does somebody get.

Speaker 4 (37:26):
That in them or find that and think, oh, I'm
going to act on that?

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Like, where does that come from? Where does he witnessed that?

Speaker 4 (37:32):
Where's those Where's that come into his head?

Speaker 3 (37:35):
I know, like, and I have no idea, but yeah,
so this while your Edward Hickman. So he used to
work in the bank where Perry worked. The year before,
William had been arrested because Perry had filed a complaint
about for stealing and forging checks total and four hundred dollars,

(37:55):
which will be over seven thousand dollars in today's money.
He had been said to probation for his crime.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
So he had motive. There's his fingerprints. He had motive.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
I mean, it's just because he failed a boy, because
they got arrestage, they got them.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
Then it was his daughter, that's lovely punch him in
the face. I thought you a bit of exactly just
couldn't give me not that I would condun the violence,
but you know, at least give him somebody a punch
in the face or just a little scrap would be
a hell a lot bit of what he did.

Speaker 3 (38:34):
So police also discovered the fingerprints on the letters sent
to Perry belonged to William as well, So they got
his address and went to his apartment and realized that
they had already been there before he left, at the
Bellevue Arms apartments, and the guy who called himself Donald
Evans had in fact been William Hickman, So they had

(38:54):
spoke to the killer like he'd been there, but this
time he wasn't there, and the officers did a more
thorough search, and this time they found bloody footprints. I mean,
how did they not find out the first time.

Speaker 4 (39:09):
I'm just going to say, how is that I've not
been the first time.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
And partly burnt handwritten drafts of the ransom letters, so
he must have been, like, you know, practicing the ransom
letters and they tried to burn. So yeah, this mastermind
didn't think to get rid of So this is the murderer.
So they just had to find him now. So they
looked at his background and found that he had been

(39:35):
born in nineteen o eight and Sebastian in Arkansas to
Eva and William Hickman.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
He'd had a good childhood.

Speaker 3 (39:43):
They had moved to Kansas City at some point, and
he'd been a star athlete. He'd been a good student,
he'd been in the debate team, and he was active
in several clubs. So it's not even like, you know,
some people are like, have these really bad childhood.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
It's not that that excuses it. But I mean, he's
not even had that.

Speaker 1 (40:00):
I mean, obviously, I know, we don't know every single
detail of his childhood, but from that description there, it
doesn't sound like it was in any way like a
dark childhood or he was like, you know, witnessing things
that made him have these thoughts and stuff like that.
So where the hell does something like that get that
from them?

Speaker 3 (40:22):
So that changed when he met a guy called Wellby
Hunt when he was sixteen. He graduated from I mean
he did sort of steal things, small things like sweeties
from the shop and things like that.

Speaker 4 (40:32):
Does the kids do that?

Speaker 2 (40:33):
Yeah? Exactly does it?

Speaker 4 (40:37):
It doesn't make them turn into killers?

Speaker 2 (40:38):
So does it? No?

Speaker 3 (40:40):
But he upgraded from that him when he met Welby
he upgraded from that.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
To forgery and then on armed robbery.

Speaker 3 (40:50):
So he both left school in nineteen twenty six and
they moved to Los Angeles, where they stayed with Welby's grandparents.

Speaker 2 (40:58):
On Christmas Eves that year, so this was year before they.

Speaker 3 (41:01):
Kidnapped Marion, William and Welby held up a drug store
and they were caught in a shootout that got one
police officer shot and a farm and the pharmacist, Clarence
tom Tom's killed. Well, so they hadn't been caught, so

(41:21):
they lay low for a while and got jobs as
messengers at the bank where Perry Parker worked. On the
twenty third of May nineteen twenty seven, Welby's grandfather withdrew
a large sum of money from his bank account, and
the next day his body was found beneath Pasadena's Colorado
Street bridge. The money was gone, but five suicide notes

(41:43):
were left behind. Don't know why there was five, but
they were written in like two different handwritings, So that's
a bit sus.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
Yeah, I mean, there's nothing to say.

Speaker 3 (41:56):
That Welby and William had anything to do with it,
but you know, bit sus, but is they probably killed him, well,
got his money, killed them, and both wrote a suicide
up for some reason.

Speaker 2 (42:07):
But it wasn't proved. So what the likelihood is it?
Probably they were probably evolved in some way maybe.

Speaker 3 (42:19):
So around this time is when Perry had reported William
for stealing and forgery, and later that year is when
he walked into the school and took Marion Parker.

Speaker 2 (42:29):
So the sert was on for William Hickman.

Speaker 3 (42:32):
He was sighted by a gas station attendant in Oregon
and he reported to the police that he was driving
a green Hudson Sedan. Polace were then able to track
him to Seattle as he used two of the twenty
dollars golds of pivocates that Perry had given him an
exchange for Marion, and he was buying clothes with the money.
So yeah, so on the twenty second, so there you go.

(42:57):
If they've had an exchange with Mary, a couple of
days later, there's him using the the money. So that
I'm down and marriage could you been saying, so.

Speaker 1 (43:14):
What if there had been better communication between them all
to kind of make a better plan, Yeah, sort of handover?
Could I mean, you know, we don't know for certain
that she stood with one hundred percent been alive, but
it does sound more like so it's a shame that,

(43:36):
you know, because of maybe not communicating and making a
plan between the place and Perry that you know, result
with in having an effect on what later happened.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:47):
So on the twenty second of December, he was cited
at another gas station, this time Portland and the polace
were told that he attended east in the direction of
the Columbia River Gorge, so a billeting must put out.

Speaker 2 (43:58):
An officer's were stationed on.

Speaker 3 (43:59):
All was laid in east of Portland, and after a
big car chase, William was caught and arrested.

Speaker 2 (44:05):
At first, he said some fiend killed her. One love.
That's what he said. When he was when he.

Speaker 3 (44:12):
Got him at the apartments, he said that when he
was the other guy.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
Yeah, I hope the fiend was caught.

Speaker 3 (44:20):
I don't know, he said. At first he said some
fiend killed her. I don't know who he is. But
then he said, I I did it because I wanted
the money to pay my way through college. Mm hmmm.
So the questioned, he said that he didn't kill Mary
and he just participated in the kidnap. He said, he

(44:41):
said that brothers Oliver and Frank Kramer, carried out the murder.
He said that he had taken maryon, he had spent
time with her driving around, and that he liked her.
He said that he took out the cinema to watch
a silent comedy film called Figures Don't Lie. He was
the he was the one who wrote the telegrams, made
the phone calls, but he had nothing to do with

(45:02):
the murder. So of course police looked into that because
he could have been telling the truth. But they found
out that this wasn't possible because the Kramer brothers were
currently in prison on other charges, and they've been in
prison for months, so there's there's no way that they
could have anything to do with it.

Speaker 8 (45:21):
Blames something else, at least blames him with actually around to,
you know, be a senior.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
And that's what master It causs out a masterminder. It's like, no,
you're not so.

Speaker 3 (45:37):
William was taken to Los Angeles where he confessed to
Marian's murder, but he said he wasn't intending to kill her.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
He just wanted the money.

Speaker 3 (45:47):
But when Marian recognized him from the time from the
times when she had been to work where her dad.
He decided they had to kill her so that she
wouldn't identify him.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
M So just be worn in. This next bit is
a bit gruesome.

Speaker 3 (46:00):
So William said that he blindfolded Marian and he tied
her to a chair in his apartment and then he
strangled her until she was unconscious. He then hung her
body upside down over the bathtub and sliced her throat
to drain her body of blood. He then dismembered her

(46:20):
and disembodled her. And he said that her body jerked
with such force that it flew out of the tub.
So this suggests that she may still have been alive
during the dismemberment.

Speaker 4 (46:31):
Oh my god. But then then then the corner say
that she died due to strangulation. But then there was
no mention of her.

Speaker 2 (46:37):
Throat being slit at that point.

Speaker 3 (46:39):
No, I know, but as I said, you know, nineteen
twenty is information is not so great. So at that
point that's absolutely awful. And then he thought, oh shit,
mister Parker isn't going to give me money now because
you know she's dead, so he's not.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
Going to give me money for a dead child. So
needed to be alive.

Speaker 3 (47:04):
Yeah, so that's when he decided to sow her eyelids
open and put some makeup on her and wrapped her
in the banket to make to make it look like
she was alive. And he then said, after telling them that,
he said, he then said quote, she felt perfectly safe,
and the tragedy was so sudden and unexpected that I'm

(47:25):
sure she never actually suffered through the whole affair, except
for a little sobbing which she couldn't keep back for
her father or mother.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
How can you say that she never suffered.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
Exactly, that she be petrified for what was going to happen,
or you know, she was going to see her family again.
I mean, that's suffering just because it might not be
physical at points, like mentally, she.

Speaker 4 (47:51):
Suffering from the minute you've taken her, of course.

Speaker 3 (47:55):
So he also confessed to the murder of the pharmacist
and also to several other armed robberies. So on the
twenty fifth of January nineteen twenty eight, his trial began
and he pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity.

Speaker 2 (48:11):
So this was a new plea in California.

Speaker 3 (48:13):
So he obviously decided he was going to give a shot,
and he was actually one of the first defendants ever
to use it. He acting weirdly while he was on
remand he was like talking to himself, and he was
pretending to be death when people spoke to them. He
told the attorneys that he had killed Marion because of
a supernatural deity called Providence. However, a psychologist determined that

(48:37):
there was nothing about him to indicate insanity. He was
just he was just putting on yeah, bas So in February,
the insanity defense was rejected by the jury and William
Hickman was sentenced to death by hanging. He appealed, but
he lost, and in his final months he wrote apology.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
Letters to his victims families.

Speaker 3 (49:03):
On the nineteenth of October nineteen twenty eight, William was
hanged on the gallows and sang quent in prison.

Speaker 2 (49:10):
And it took about two minutes for I may die.

Speaker 3 (49:13):
So it was like drinking about and wriggling about, and
his neck did a break, so he died from its asphyxia.
So he strangled Marian and he was strangled himself.

Speaker 2 (49:27):
There you go, yeah, well, I mean that's absolutely horrendous.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
That is absolutely terrible, like that's that's that's just crazy, like.

Speaker 8 (49:36):
And for watch, it just seems like such a pointless
they were to college that no fucking guy jump there.

Speaker 4 (49:48):
I mean, fucking you know what I mean, Like we
save your money, you will do it the right way.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
You just expect to grab money of people and kept
in the process. I mean, I mean that's something I
just like these they must be a bit deleted in
some ways. But how killers like you know, I think
that they're going to go off and live like a
normal life after they've killed somebody and get away with it.
It's like, well, nah, the chances are you're probably gonna

(50:13):
get caught and pay for your fucking crime.

Speaker 4 (50:15):
So is it really fucking worth it?

Speaker 2 (50:17):
You know?

Speaker 3 (50:18):
And you know, just as I said again that amount
of money, Like, I mean, you shouldn't be killing anybody,
you shouldn't be kidnapping or asking for money. But I
mean that's an insult as for that.

Speaker 4 (50:36):
Yeah, that's really bad.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
Yeah. So there you go.

Speaker 3 (50:41):
So there's our PTRE episode for this month or well
for that too, for this tier anyway, for the three
pound tier. So we will be back soon on the
main the main show and until there until then, thanks
for listening and take care like bye, but