September 9, 2025 • 32 mins
This episode is about the murder of Jaqueline Bartlam.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Laura and I'm Jail and this is Craig Divers. Hello, everybody,
(00:22):
Welcome to today's episode. Hello, and today's a picture on episode.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Yay, So would you like to know did you like that?
That would be handy? We're in the world, awway.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
We are in Nottingham in England. Nothingham cool. I always
think of like not like as in like not not
not I just like share. Is it Sherman for us?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Is that normal?
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Sheriff I'm one of them. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
I always think of that Blue Peter And I was
going to say, I'm blame peer.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
You mean that's got nothing like Sheriff. I'm not us.
It's not on for us. Sheriff for us? Is are
not on forest? I think I think Sherwood Forest, not
the fictional name, or maybe I don't know. Oh, I
don't know, but anyway it makes me think of it.
So there you go, useless information. What's the title.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
It's called the Coronation Street Killer, Cornation Street Killer.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
That's what I named him.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
That that is like what he's been, you know how
some killers, yeah, have their names.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
The name, and that's what that's person is called. Is it?
Is it? And it relevance to the obviously, there is
a tiny.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
Little relevance to So okay, all right, we'll show the
get diving in.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yep, let's dive in.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So on the twenty fourth and April two thousand and
eleven or twenty eleven. Right, I have a question to
ask you. Do you say two thousand and eleven or
twenty eleven.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Funnier enough or later on twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
It really depends on when and where I'm saying it,
because I could say both.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
To be honest, I think I do, because I was
saying something to John the other day and he's like,
I said two thouy sixteen.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Anyway, do you know I mean twenty sixteen? And I
was like, oh, is that the right way to say it? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (02:15):
I have said both, so I don't. I don't know
what one I say war or But I don't think
so there's not a wrong way, are right now?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I don't think so. I think you can say, an't.
I just don't. I don't. I just haven't really thought
about it till I was of those, but well, neither
until John pouted that out. I mean, although I do
realize that people do it different ways. I think I
usually say two thousand.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
I mean because like, for instance, twenty twenty, yeah, twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Now it's twenty twenty and twenty twenty one. Yeah. But
before and then obviously when it was like in the
before ten to two thousand and one two yeah, So
what's been about twenty eleven. Maybe there's a bit of
transition to their thousand or another. I probably would have
said twenty eleven, but shut up and get on with it.
On the twenty fourth to April two thy eleven, because
(02:58):
that's why I.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Say it, which is Easter Sunday, Simon Matters was on
a business trip.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
He lived in Nottingham, England, and he was in Yorkshire
for a couple of days for work.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
He texted his girlfriend, Jackie Bartell, I'm saying Happy Easter,
and he asked her what her plans were for the day.
She replied and said that her and her two sons,
Daniel and Dominic, who are going to her mums for
Easter dinner.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
And he said they would. IM sorry, computer closing here.
He said he would see her the next day as
he was coming home the following morning.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
So the next day, the twenty fifth of way Pril
she lives. Ann and Simon got in his car ready
to leave his business Chick to go back to Nottingham,
and just so he was just looking at his phone
and he read a news article that were in a
house fire and Arnold, Nottingham, which is where Jackie and
her two sons live. He texted Jackie, made sure that
it wasn't her house and that she was okay. After
(03:56):
about an hour, she hadn't replied black back, so he
checked again online for updates, and the next article that
he read said that the fire was in a street
called Georgia Drive and that's where jaquieline.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
God you start planet, I wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Yeah, so, but Simon said, as soon as he read
that it was Georgia Dry, he just knew that it was.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Jackie said, it's probably because she hadn't answer done. Yeah, exactly,
you might be raised so obviously, just you know, I said,
He's gone his way home. Men. He rove straight there.
When he got there, he saw that he was right.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
He ran up with the place that was staying outside
the house and they told him that unfortunately, her body
was in the house. It wasn't confirmed yet but it
was believed to the Jackie Bartlan his right.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
He was told that thankfully her children had survived.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Daniel, who was fourteen, if I raised the alarm and
he had grabbed his little brother, Dominic, who was six,
and got him outside.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
He then went back inside the burning house.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
He knew it was too late to save his mom
as the fire was coming from her bedroom, but he
managed to say to the family dog to take the
dog out of safety. So let's say he saved his
little brother and the dog, but all they could do
was stand and watches their house burns with their mum inside.
I'll speak horrible, so I'll get a little bit background
in the family before we went further.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
So the Bartland family, as we know, lived in not
and I'm in the UK. The mother was Jacqueline, who
was known as Jackie, and the father was Adrian. Daniel
was born in.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Nineteen ninety six and he was three when his parents
got married.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
A few years later, they had their other son, Dominic.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Unfortunately, though Jackie and Adrian got divorced in two thousand
and five, the boys lived with their mum and they
would see their dad at the weekends, but the divorce
had financial implications on the family, but it can affect
Daniel the most because Dominic was still.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
A baby when the comments asked split up. But Daniel,
he'd been going.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
To private school and because of the divorce couldn't afford that.
They couldn't afford six tender private school anymore.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
They had to just go to the Comprehensive School.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
So of course there's there's not wrong with that, but
for him, like on top of like you know, he's
having to change school, he's having a lady's friends and
the kids, the kids at the Comprehensive School are like,
we're but I think they're kind of teasing him a
bit about being a being at a private school.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
And he and she actually thought that the Comprehensive School
was below him. He thought he was better than that.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
So obviously the kids aren't going to get better on
very well and no, you think that you're better than
they and then exactly, yeah, yeah, so obviously I wasn't
happy about, honey, how many change skills. So in May
two thousand and eight, Jackie went on her night out
and that's when she met Simon Matters. After they've been
together for a while, they started to make plans to
(06:42):
move in together, so.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Daniel must have been sorry.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
But Daniel must have been about eight when his little
brother was born, so at first he had to get
used to.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Not being an old child anymore.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Then when his mum met Simon, it's theearized it with
a stepdad also in the picture.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Now, he may have started feeling unloved or left out.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
They began to get angry about the lack of attention
he would just seeing and his anger build up forward
built up over time. So Jackie and Simon they were
going to both sell their houses and buy one together,
but they never actually got rounded buy in one though,
because of Daniel. Jackie and Simon found houses that they liked,
but they couldn't find one that Daniel liked, so and
(07:23):
that his choice. Well that's what I was just going
to tell you. Daniel was very domineering, and when it came.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
To his mum, he was very manipulative, and.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
I think she just wanted an easy life, so she
kind of gave into what he wanted for an easy life.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Basically funny, but I know you have to consider.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
Your kids and stuff, but ultimately it's the adult's decision.
And obviously they find houses that they like, I'm sorry,
but your kid's gotta go, and not one. But that's
not gonna stop it.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
In most people's situations, that is the case.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
But it said like she.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Would he was if she was very manipulated by him
and had said like basically what he wanted.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
He got what you want to do. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
So, by the time Daniel was fourteen, he had no
social life, He had no friends, and he spent most
of his time in his room watching violent horror movies
and playing video games. He started watching these horror films
from a young as a lover or twelve, and they
were pretty grewsome apparently. He was also fight ways mum
a lot, and on a few occasions Simon would actually
had to have to step in and like split them up.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Like Daniel was never physical, but he would be like
right up in his wave. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
So the first time this happened, Daniel said that Daniel
and Simon said that Daniel and Jackie were arguing.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
And Daniel was right up in her face and had
to step in between them and like sort of move
them away from each other.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
And so Simon told Daniel got upstairs and for the
next few minutes Daniel was kicking the banister, punching the wall,
shouting and swearing, then eventually in age room and slammed
the door.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
You know, he was also just a bit protrammed.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Child, I think, yeah, but I suppose to be that,
you know, with the parents divorcing and him coming out
with the private school, that's potentially had an effect.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
And caused him to rebel and be like that.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, So Jackie was like shaken and scared, and Simon
said he hey to think what might have happened if
he hadn't been there.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
So back to the day of the fire, Daniel and.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Dominate Cord taking at the police station to be asked
about what happened that day. Daniel said that it was
the early hours of the morning and he woke up
to go to the toilet and when he walked out
of his room, he saw a masked man standing on
the lantern.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
He said. He froze for a second, then he looked
down and saw that there was a hammer on the floor.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Daniel said he picked up the hammer threw it at
the masked man, who then jumped out of the.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Window and ran away. He said, he ran to his mum's.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Room opened the door and saw that his mum's room
was on fire, her bed was on fire, and she
was on fire. He knew he had to save his
little brother, so he ran the dominant room and took
him outside.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
By the time he fire.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Serves s got there in the house was just completely guied,
like nothing could be savaged.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
So when the investiators kept look at.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
The house to figure out what had happened, they said
that petrol had been poured over Jackie's bed and set alight,
so it.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Was generally murder. Jackie was so.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Badly burned that she had to be identified by dental
records and autopsy was carried out and it was realized
that she hadn't been killed by the fire. She was
already dead before the fire was set. She had been
bludgeoned to death with a clawhammer about ten times over
the head, and then her body had been set alight.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Once she was dead.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
So when the seer squat was left of the house,
a clawhammer was found. A lot had been cleaned, but
there were traces of Jackie's blood on her so what
police originally thought was just a tragic accidental house fire
was actually a murder, and the fire had been set
up to try and cover it up, so they started
off with the door door inquiries.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
They went to every house in the street to see
if anyone had saw her her death on unusual.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
One neighbor said that they heard an argument coming from
the Bartlum's house and it was Jackie and Daniel.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
You were arguing.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Now this this was about one am, and Daniel was
screaming and shouting, and I actually went into the garden
so the neighbor could hear that.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
He was angry because the.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Neighbor could hear him shouting, and he was angry because
Jackie had moved his.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Shoes and he couldn't find out for goodness, so I
wasn't really one o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Oh yeah, Jackie was showing from inside the house from
a can down and to come back inside and go
to bed. So eventually they argument stopped, and the neighbor
then heard someone going into the shed in the Batlum's garden.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
They then heard the shed door shut, and.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
A few minutes later they heard screams coming from the
Barrelum's house.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
The neighbor didn't do anything about it.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
They didn't call the place of rending, but I'm assuming
that's probably.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Because they were used to shouting. The screaming coming from now,
because they used to argue a lot. Yeah, I mean
like much of it, but that's what I mean.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
You know, I've heard my neighbor you obviously shower our
kids is showing scream.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
I'm sure there's nothing more than that, but you know,
you just think that that's your neighbors. And he kind
of univer said, you never think there's anything sinister to it. Well, yeah,
of course, because you never you.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Never expected because you get people can you know, have
arguments and get mad at each other and have fallouts,
and you know you can hear raised voices and showering.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
It happens a lot. I mean, it happens if my house.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
There were sometimes, but you know it's just an argument
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
There's never anything sinister.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
And now as a neighbor, you just you don't want
to get involved in people's business too.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
You just tend to well, we don't want some people
did something you know personally, I you know, don't know.
But this same neighbor said that when the fire was
blazing and Daniel had ran out.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
With dominant, he noticed that he was dressed nicely. Normally,
Daniel had poor hygiene, He didn't wash very often, and
he always looked a bit scruffy.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
But in the early hours of the morning he was
fresh and showered and dressed.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
This seemed odd considering how he usually looked, but especially
at that time in the morning when he said that.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
He had woken up to over a pee and you know,
obviously yeah, yeah, you don't think you'd be obviously Jammy's
or boxers or whatever.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
He meant he should have messy here, he should have
had whatever he wears to bed on, yeah, like or
even addressing again everybody because you're like, oh, yeah, because
I mean, if you know, I.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
Suppose you know myself, if I was woken up and
then I realized there was a fire, I wouldn't I'd
be running out of what I've got on, yeah, or
if you got nothing on, grabbing like yeah, something like that.
I mean, obviously you had no clothes and then yeah,
I understand you would grab something to wear, but you're
not going to be too boyed about what it is.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Are You're just going to be desperate to get the house.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
You would grab the first thing that you've seen. Yeah,
And I said, like your here would be messy. You
wouldn't be all like you're hearing to be all brushed
and especially normally scruffy.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Anyway, Oh yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
And it said like he said, he got woken up
web for a p saw a mask intruder and the
house was all fired. So even they have had tiny
no get dressed exactly. So anyway, so the police thought
maybe he wasn't such a hero after all. Of course,
Daniel stuck to the story of the masked man, but
the police where I can convinced. So two days after
(13:59):
the murder, Daniel was arrested. So Daniel's computer was looked at,
and on the computer they found like short stories that
he would write about murder, and it was like like
kids killing each other and like fighting on the weighty
school and stuff like that. And on his browser history
(14:19):
there was things like how to get away with Murder.
He had been reading up on true crime cases as
well as well as fictional ones where but it was
always where young boys had murdered people. Right, He did
seem interested in any other true crime cases or fictional
ones either, but yeah, it was always just when young boys,
young boys were killed.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Investigators found a screenplay that.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Daniel had written, but he deleted it, but obviously they won't.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
So it was a bit of a boy called Daniel Barlom,
so he had the would change the names just and
he killed his mum, who was called Jackie Barlom, and
the murder was described exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
How Jackie was murdered in real life, and then the
story Daniel got away with him, right.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
It was noted that Daniel would also draw pictures or
people stabbing each other and like blood everywhere and quite disturborn.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
It does sound very disturbing here.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah, so you'd think that all these horror movies and
video games he was playing would it would have inspired
the way they carried out the murder. But in fact
it was actually a pop popular slop opera on British
TV called Coronation Street. And I'm talking about it in
a minute.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
But I had just.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
I personally I would have called him the Coronation Street
killer and we didn't connect it that much. But I've
got something else to say before we get to that, right,
So Professor Kevin Brown, who was a forensic psychologist, said
about Daniel quote he had already decided that he hated
his mother, and that he wanted his mother dead. He
had already decided that it was probably her fault in
(15:57):
his eyes, that he was in this unhappy situation, unhappy
at school, unhappy at home, and the divorce was her fall,
and therefore having made that decision to kill her, to
murder her, he was just then looking for an m
a technique how to do it. And that's probably where
the Coronation Street angle came in. So it was discovered
(16:18):
on his Internet browser that he'd been looking at the
storyline on Coronation Street where a character called John Stape.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Killed someone with a hammer. Oh the do you have
a teacher?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah, And although I don't remember it, I kind of
looked it up and yeah, he killed a woman with
a hammer, and then he dragged her over.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
He took her body over because it'd been.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Like a train crash or tram crash, and he killed
her body over there and left her so that it
would look like she'd been involved with a tract issue.
So I was just like, well, so the only similarity
was that he had killed her with a hammer.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah, And Daniel.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
Maybe or maybe the fact that he was making it
look like an acci cover it up to get it up.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah, yeah, I'm not.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
As I said, I'm not so sure I would have
kind of dugged down the cornage Street Killer.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Just because there was a storyline and a soap that
was similar. Yeah, probably not.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
He also had a YouTube channel and he would upload
clips from horror movies and also from soaps.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Like so when there was a murder or some violence and.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
A soap, he would like upload it to his YouTube.
And like these world just seemed to revolve where it
was horror, murder, violence. So of course I had a
look to see YouTube you tube channel was still there,
and it is, but there's only been five there's five
videos on it, so.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
The rest of us have been deleted. I don't know
why any of them would have been tep you think
the whole thing would be delayed. Oh yeah, So.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
To look at the videos, So one video is from EastEnders,
which is another British TV soap and it's called It's
it's called EastEnders. Zenaw gets chucked out, so her husband grabs.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Her and physically pushes them out of the door.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
That's basically they're like, you know, obviously like an argument
or something, having an argument and he sort of grabs
her back by the shoulders and he physically, you know,
pushes around the door.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah, that's sad.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
And then another video is East Enders filled HiT's Ben,
which is just a thirty second clip of film Mitchell
running in the house and a pit in his son
Ben right. And then the other three videos are of
Daniel and a man called Graham. I don't I don't
know who this Graham man is, but it was like
an older an older guy, and the videos are called
(18:32):
Camera Information one, Camera Information two, Camera Information three. So
I tried to watch something, but the sound was that
low I could barely hear what they were saying. But
I think it was some sort of like tutorials on taking.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Photos or something like that. They're all like a couple
of minutes long or something.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
So that's what I'm saying, Like, I don't understand why
that's been kept up with.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
All the other videos that he was uploading and being delayed.
Think they would just like the whole channel. Yeah, So
that's just a bit weird. Just mention it because I
looked at it.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
So Simon was interviewed about Diet Daniel, you know Jackie's
boyfriend Simon. He said that Jackie had found a smaller,
more affordable house in the Arnold's area of notting Arm.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
So this was before her and Simon had decided to move.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
In together, so this will be quite at the start.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Of their relationship or whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
And Simon had helped to pack up Daniel's bedroom and
you were getting rid of toys that he didn't.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Play anymore, like clothes that he had grown out of.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
And at the back of his wardrobe they found a
pile of Jackie's underwear.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
So, oh, I'm son had stolen her underwear and hidden
it in his room. That's weird.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
That.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
And then he had like plastic tubs like you know,
that his toys were in.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
But Simon discovered that those tubs were full of urine
that must have been there for quite some time.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Really, it gets worse.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Sim then also discovered that Danielle had defecated all over
in his room and wiped himself with towels, And then
the towels were like just sort of hiding my hundred room.
I actually thought was the house starts sticking surely? Oh yeah,
(20:20):
I mean, like does his mother not I don't know.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
I've mean like going to the room, like realize it
smells like but we have a you know, like mums do.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Have a look around. The tree's got washed and stuff,
but we find things I mean.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Like yeah, I mean I go in my daughter's room
just basically get there to get her washing or put
her clean washing in our room.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
So I didn't want it in and outer room for that.
But then maybe they didn't do that. Maybe they put
their washing and maybe they took them. I don't know,
I don't I honestly don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
How that could have been missed unless his bedroom door
was just shut all the time and he had a
window opened.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Maybe, but I still think that you would be able,
well you would think what you would think. I mean,
we don't know. We don't have that situation.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
They mustn't know, because otherwise she would have went in
and cleaned it. Or if I noticed that there was
a really bad spell come from my daughter's room, if
I didn't want any well, I would to confront her.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
But because obviously she's.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Not a problem child like what obviously Daniel is, and
I really might get your round tied up because it stinks.
But maybe in Jackie's situation, I would just went in
the room and cleaned it.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
Anyway, even I shouldn't want a confrontation when he was
at school, she wasn't. I don't know if she was
working or anything, but I don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
She wants to be working because she could buy a house,
so she was.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Oh yeah, But I mean it must be moments when
he was potentially at the house and she could have
even just went and if she didn't want confrontation.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
With him storm I don't know, but I mean, I
just I don't know.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
I don't know the situation, but it's it's very strange
that that spell didn't seem.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
To the rest of the house or even just a
case of where's all my tills gone? Maybe have lots
of toubles. I mean, it's just because I mean that yea,
just like.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
There was maybe only a couple of troubles they'd done
it with, you know, like he start doesn't that's he
had done that, but it doesn't he see he's doing
that all the time.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
True, So I might only just you know, being a
couple of troubles that you would notice that we're missing.
But yeah, as gross and you would think that they
would be a smell it. But so that Simon said
that Jackie just didn't want to.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Fuss, and that's why Daniel didn't really get told off
for doing anything.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
She just didn't want to be arguing with him. And
what an easy life, which we wanted.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Kenney said that before Yeah, so Daniel's behavior was starting
to it was also starting to concerned his teachers, and
he was said to see the school's counselor after he
claimed that his tie had a life of his own
and was trying to kill him. He told so went
to the councilor, and he told the counselor that he
was hearing voices in his head telling him to hurt people.
(23:05):
And actually, six weeks before the murder, Daniel had had
an assessment at a mental health unit because I.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Think the counselor are preferred up.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
To a mental health unit after obviously him said that
he was hearing her voice and stuff. But he was
found out no mental illnesses and was judged to be
of little or more risk to himself or others.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Well, they got that one wrong, so well no, not really,
you might not have had mental illness. Oh no, I
mean I mean, like I mean him being at risk
to others, because they obviously was got that wrong. But
they obviously can't tell that.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
I think that's probably difficult for a professional, because I mean,
I don't.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Think a professional she can really judge that, That's what
I mean.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
I mean, like you could go along and be really happy, chatty,
bubbly whatever else, but you could probably still have dark thoughts,
but you don't show that to somebody.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I mean, I'm sure they have ways of kind of
telling things, but surely the professionals, they are only getting
what you're telling them.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Your actions are your words. Yeah, so you could you
could easily put.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
An act on or whatever to conceal how you really
feel or how you really are, if you don't want
to be like, you know, judged on that.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
And it's kind of funny though, because like, if he's
saying that he's hearing voices and things, it sounds to
me as if he, if he hasn't got a mental illness,
he's trying to make it look like he does have
a mental illness, which makes me think that this is
all preparations you get away.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
But then the for whatever reason, the.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Professionals kind of went, well, no, you haven't got event alumnus,
which I find strange if somebody's telling you that they're
hearing voices and things like that, like, how do you I.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Don't know how. We're not comcials.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
We don't know how they determine it so exactly but
sadly obviously, but that could I couldn't have foreseen what
he was obviously going to do.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
No, of course, I mean we could have foreseen. I mean,
unless you could.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
But that's why I think it's just a bit a
bit risky to be kind of saying, know, this person
isn't a risk.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, it's a bit, you know, because.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Because you're a professional, so a lot of people are
going to take you at your words and say, right, well,
he's okay, he's not gonna hurt anybody's way, we maybe
don't need to do anything further.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
And then and then both does that. So yeah, isn't
it like a herd on that?
Speaker 1 (25:35):
So for weeks Daniel denied that he'd killed his mum,
but eventually admitted her and he told the place an
entirely different venter of events to wide originally sent, obviously
because there wasn't a mask intruder. So this time he
said that on that day he had argued with his
mom earlier on in the day and then later on
she went to bed and about one am he stormed
an air room, which we know that they tar a
(25:57):
massive argument about some new trainers that you couldn't find.
So as a result of that, he went and got
the hammer and hit her over the head many times,
pratture of her skull and her face, and then set fire,
set the fire and went to.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
The dominic and the dog head of the house.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
On the fourth of October two and eleven, Daniel pleaded
not guilty to the murder of his mum and Jackie, despite.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Having blood and turt death at the hammer. He claimed he.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Had been provoked from what I've seen.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
He didn't claim how he'd been provoked. You know, I
don't know if you just meant because they were arguing
and he got that angry. I mean, you get angry
and I get it, or just go and cool off
from your room and leave it. Don't go. We have
a harber exactly like, that's never the great answer. We've
always said, there's always a better way.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
So his child began on the twenty third of January
twenty twenty twelve, and to start off with, he was.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Like sitting quite meek, clear and like you.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Know, like looked like a little boy who was like
totally out of his depth.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
But when cross examined.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
By the pro secution, he became quite arrogant and he
basically just kind of game as good as he got.
Sounds like a ship look So doctor Elizabeth Yardley, who
is a criminologist, was asked why she thought that he
was still denying in core, and she said that he
thought that he still had that arrogance, like he still
thought that he could get.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Away with it, but then he already admitted it, so.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Yeah, to get it, but he was trying to get
he was like sticking the story that he was provoked,
and that way he was trying not so much trying
to get away with it, but like trying to make
it quite like get let's get some sympathy. Like And
the only time that Daniel looked at Simon at the
trial was towards the end of it, and he looked
(27:41):
Simon in the eye and he drew his finger across
his throat, like you know that action that you make
when you're like I'm going to kill your And Simon
said that if you know, he obviously thought Daniel was
trying to.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Be intimida but he didn't bring it in somebody.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
And he just thought that was Daniel being Daniel. That's
just the way he was. He was defying and he
just thinks he can do whatever he likes. M He
was like he was obviously used to. So he also
said that the trial. Simon said at the trial, Daniel
would put his head down a lot, but not because
he was remorseful for what he had done. His head
(28:16):
was in his hands, but he was peeping through it
to see who was watching them, like he wanted to
be attention. Yeah, in Simon's opinion, it was all for show.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
No remorse, no crying, just nothing. It was like Daniel
just can't even bothered with it all. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Then after two weeks the jury reached a decision, so
Daniel found guilty.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
And at this point he actually did show some emotion.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
He hung his head and looked like he was about
to cry. He put his head in his hands. But
I think it's just because he realized that he happened.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
What we were. He actually like realized the reality of
his situation. And I think that's exactly what it was.
It was like, yeah, there's no getting out of this now. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
So on the second of April twenty twelve, Daniel was
sentenced to life.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
In prison with a minimum of sixteen years. So he'll be.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Ll eligible for related in twenty twenty eight, but you
know it won't happen if he's still judged judge to
still be a danger to other sobs. I don't know
how he's behaving, and in prisons to.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
Probably grow grow, growed, do a lot of growing up,
because I'm assuming obviously he would have been in a child.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
One, but now you must be in an adults prisoner.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Thought he got transferred because he was fourteen, then I
don't know when you get transferred, if it's like sixteen
or eighteen, I don't know actually, but as a minimum,
I mean it will be in a in.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
An adult prisoner. Yeah, it will be so.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah. But so in my opinion, I think I think
he must have thought that obviously Kilby's fun, he set
the fire to try to cover it up, but he
didn't think it through properly because he obviously didn't think
that pole smart would be done and they would say
that she's been killed with the hammer something. Just wondering
(30:09):
if he actually thought that the fire would have completely
destroyed our body and everything.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
And to me, that's like, well, you didn't do your
research properly, then, did you.
Speaker 5 (30:20):
Well, considering all the research that he seems to have
done on his computer, he obviously didn't research what happens
when there's been a fire, like what investigations take place.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, you would have thought what happens to that body
when you burn it? You know? But then, I mean,
at the end of the day, was fourteen years old.
I mean, I don't think they've got the mental capacity
to you know, young think, Yeah, exactly, they don't have
the capacity th these things through properly.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
And I mean it shouldn't even be something that he's
actually thinking bloody through proper because he shouldn't be doing
it in the first place.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
But it was obviously a very troubled.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
Young man that it might you know, it sounds like,
I mean, there might have been other factors, but it
sounds like it stemmed from the divorce his parents and
him coming out.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Private school and like mainstream school.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Well just interrupt you there. On the experts that have.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Spoken about they've all.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Said that he had there didn't seem to be any
trauma in his life apart from divorce, not even the
private school thing. How many kids have because how many
kids have come from divorces, how many kids have moved schools.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
But you know, so that's what's kind of triggered. No,
like why that can't be.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
It be like, you know how many people and how
many kids have grown up and in a divorced family,
you know the parents.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
And they don't murdered. Yeah, exactly how many people have.
Speaker 4 (31:45):
But the triggered something for one person doesn't trigger it
for somebody else.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
No, you just don't know that. The mind is a
I don't think kids anything like that.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
I think he was just an angry kid and he
blamed his mum for everything. I don't think it was
like sort of trauma as such as being upset of
he's paying us being the water.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
I think he was iry that they got to walk.
Just don't mention where his dad's actually wasn't all listening. Well,
it's just so so that'd be kid, because you.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Would have thought maybe if even if his mom's having trouble,
then you know, maybe his dad could have sorted about
and he could have went loved his dad if it
was that bad.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
I don't know, maybe that wasn't an option. I don't
know the situation there, so I might not have been
an option.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
But yeah, so you well, thank you very much, so
thank you to everybody for listening, and we'll be back
soon later
Hi, I'm Laura and I'm Jail and this is Craig Divers. Hello, everybody,
(00:22):
Welcome to today's episode. Hello, and today's a picture on episode.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Yay, So would you like to know did you like that?
That would be handy? We're in the world, awway.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
We are in Nottingham in England. Nothingham cool. I always
think of like not like as in like not not
not I just like share. Is it Sherman for us?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Is that normal?
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Sheriff I'm one of them. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
I always think of that Blue Peter And I was
going to say, I'm blame peer.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
You mean that's got nothing like Sheriff. I'm not us.
It's not on for us. Sheriff for us? Is are
not on forest? I think I think Sherwood Forest, not
the fictional name, or maybe I don't know. Oh, I
don't know, but anyway it makes me think of it.
So there you go, useless information. What's the title.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
It's called the Coronation Street Killer, Cornation Street Killer.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
That's what I named him.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
That that is like what he's been, you know how
some killers, yeah, have their names.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
The name, and that's what that's person is called. Is it?
Is it? And it relevance to the obviously, there is
a tiny.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
Little relevance to So okay, all right, we'll show the
get diving in.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yep, let's dive in.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So on the twenty fourth and April two thousand and
eleven or twenty eleven. Right, I have a question to
ask you. Do you say two thousand and eleven or
twenty eleven.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Funnier enough or later on twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
It really depends on when and where I'm saying it,
because I could say both.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
To be honest, I think I do, because I was
saying something to John the other day and he's like,
I said two thouy sixteen.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Anyway, do you know I mean twenty sixteen? And I
was like, oh, is that the right way to say it? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (02:15):
I have said both, so I don't. I don't know
what one I say war or But I don't think
so there's not a wrong way, are right now?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I don't think so. I think you can say, an't.
I just don't. I don't. I just haven't really thought
about it till I was of those, but well, neither
until John pouted that out. I mean, although I do
realize that people do it different ways. I think I
usually say two thousand.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
I mean because like, for instance, twenty twenty, yeah, twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Now it's twenty twenty and twenty twenty one. Yeah. But
before and then obviously when it was like in the
before ten to two thousand and one two yeah, So
what's been about twenty eleven. Maybe there's a bit of
transition to their thousand or another. I probably would have
said twenty eleven, but shut up and get on with it.
On the twenty fourth to April two thy eleven, because
(02:58):
that's why I.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Say it, which is Easter Sunday, Simon Matters was on
a business trip.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
He lived in Nottingham, England, and he was in Yorkshire
for a couple of days for work.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
He texted his girlfriend, Jackie Bartell, I'm saying Happy Easter,
and he asked her what her plans were for the day.
She replied and said that her and her two sons,
Daniel and Dominic, who are going to her mums for
Easter dinner.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
And he said they would. IM sorry, computer closing here.
He said he would see her the next day as
he was coming home the following morning.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
So the next day, the twenty fifth of way Pril
she lives. Ann and Simon got in his car ready
to leave his business Chick to go back to Nottingham,
and just so he was just looking at his phone
and he read a news article that were in a
house fire and Arnold, Nottingham, which is where Jackie and
her two sons live. He texted Jackie, made sure that
it wasn't her house and that she was okay. After
(03:56):
about an hour, she hadn't replied black back, so he
checked again online for updates, and the next article that
he read said that the fire was in a street
called Georgia Drive and that's where jaquieline.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
God you start planet, I wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Yeah, so, but Simon said, as soon as he read
that it was Georgia Dry, he just knew that it was.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Jackie said, it's probably because she hadn't answer done. Yeah, exactly,
you might be raised so obviously, just you know, I said,
He's gone his way home. Men. He rove straight there.
When he got there, he saw that he was right.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
He ran up with the place that was staying outside
the house and they told him that unfortunately, her body
was in the house. It wasn't confirmed yet but it
was believed to the Jackie Bartlan his right.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
He was told that thankfully her children had survived.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Daniel, who was fourteen, if I raised the alarm and
he had grabbed his little brother, Dominic, who was six,
and got him outside.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
He then went back inside the burning house.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
He knew it was too late to save his mom
as the fire was coming from her bedroom, but he
managed to say to the family dog to take the
dog out of safety. So let's say he saved his
little brother and the dog, but all they could do
was stand and watches their house burns with their mum inside.
I'll speak horrible, so I'll get a little bit background
in the family before we went further.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
So the Bartland family, as we know, lived in not
and I'm in the UK. The mother was Jacqueline, who
was known as Jackie, and the father was Adrian. Daniel
was born in.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Nineteen ninety six and he was three when his parents
got married.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
A few years later, they had their other son, Dominic.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Unfortunately, though Jackie and Adrian got divorced in two thousand
and five, the boys lived with their mum and they
would see their dad at the weekends, but the divorce
had financial implications on the family, but it can affect
Daniel the most because Dominic was still.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
A baby when the comments asked split up. But Daniel,
he'd been going.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
To private school and because of the divorce couldn't afford that.
They couldn't afford six tender private school anymore.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
They had to just go to the Comprehensive School.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
So of course there's there's not wrong with that, but
for him, like on top of like you know, he's
having to change school, he's having a lady's friends and
the kids, the kids at the Comprehensive School are like,
we're but I think they're kind of teasing him a
bit about being a being at a private school.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
And he and she actually thought that the Comprehensive School
was below him. He thought he was better than that.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
So obviously the kids aren't going to get better on
very well and no, you think that you're better than
they and then exactly, yeah, yeah, so obviously I wasn't
happy about, honey, how many change skills. So in May
two thousand and eight, Jackie went on her night out
and that's when she met Simon Matters. After they've been
together for a while, they started to make plans to
(06:42):
move in together, so.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Daniel must have been sorry.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
But Daniel must have been about eight when his little
brother was born, so at first he had to get
used to.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Not being an old child anymore.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Then when his mum met Simon, it's theearized it with
a stepdad also in the picture.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Now, he may have started feeling unloved or left out.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
They began to get angry about the lack of attention
he would just seeing and his anger build up forward
built up over time. So Jackie and Simon they were
going to both sell their houses and buy one together,
but they never actually got rounded buy in one though,
because of Daniel. Jackie and Simon found houses that they liked,
but they couldn't find one that Daniel liked, so and
(07:23):
that his choice. Well that's what I was just going
to tell you. Daniel was very domineering, and when it came.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
To his mum, he was very manipulative, and.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
I think she just wanted an easy life, so she
kind of gave into what he wanted for an easy life.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Basically funny, but I know you have to consider.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
Your kids and stuff, but ultimately it's the adult's decision.
And obviously they find houses that they like, I'm sorry,
but your kid's gotta go, and not one. But that's
not gonna stop it.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
In most people's situations, that is the case.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
But it said like she.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Would he was if she was very manipulated by him
and had said like basically what he wanted.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
He got what you want to do. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
So, by the time Daniel was fourteen, he had no
social life, He had no friends, and he spent most
of his time in his room watching violent horror movies
and playing video games. He started watching these horror films
from a young as a lover or twelve, and they
were pretty grewsome apparently. He was also fight ways mum
a lot, and on a few occasions Simon would actually
had to have to step in and like split them up.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Like Daniel was never physical, but he would be like
right up in his wave. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
So the first time this happened, Daniel said that Daniel
and Simon said that Daniel and Jackie were arguing.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
And Daniel was right up in her face and had
to step in between them and like sort of move
them away from each other.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
And so Simon told Daniel got upstairs and for the
next few minutes Daniel was kicking the banister, punching the wall,
shouting and swearing, then eventually in age room and slammed
the door.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
You know, he was also just a bit protrammed.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Child, I think, yeah, but I suppose to be that,
you know, with the parents divorcing and him coming out
with the private school, that's potentially had an effect.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
And caused him to rebel and be like that.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, So Jackie was like shaken and scared, and Simon
said he hey to think what might have happened if
he hadn't been there.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
So back to the day of the fire, Daniel and.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Dominate Cord taking at the police station to be asked
about what happened that day. Daniel said that it was
the early hours of the morning and he woke up
to go to the toilet and when he walked out
of his room, he saw a masked man standing on
the lantern.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
He said. He froze for a second, then he looked
down and saw that there was a hammer on the floor.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Daniel said he picked up the hammer threw it at
the masked man, who then jumped out of the.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Window and ran away. He said, he ran to his mum's.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Room opened the door and saw that his mum's room
was on fire, her bed was on fire, and she
was on fire. He knew he had to save his
little brother, so he ran the dominant room and took
him outside.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
By the time he fire.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Serves s got there in the house was just completely guied,
like nothing could be savaged.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
So when the investiators kept look at.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
The house to figure out what had happened, they said
that petrol had been poured over Jackie's bed and set alight,
so it.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Was generally murder. Jackie was so.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Badly burned that she had to be identified by dental
records and autopsy was carried out and it was realized
that she hadn't been killed by the fire. She was
already dead before the fire was set. She had been
bludgeoned to death with a clawhammer about ten times over
the head, and then her body had been set alight.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Once she was dead.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
So when the seer squat was left of the house,
a clawhammer was found. A lot had been cleaned, but
there were traces of Jackie's blood on her so what
police originally thought was just a tragic accidental house fire
was actually a murder, and the fire had been set
up to try and cover it up, so they started
off with the door door inquiries.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
They went to every house in the street to see
if anyone had saw her her death on unusual.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
One neighbor said that they heard an argument coming from
the Bartlum's house and it was Jackie and Daniel.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
You were arguing.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Now this this was about one am, and Daniel was
screaming and shouting, and I actually went into the garden
so the neighbor could hear that.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
He was angry because the.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Neighbor could hear him shouting, and he was angry because
Jackie had moved his.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Shoes and he couldn't find out for goodness, so I
wasn't really one o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Oh yeah, Jackie was showing from inside the house from
a can down and to come back inside and go
to bed. So eventually they argument stopped, and the neighbor
then heard someone going into the shed in the Batlum's garden.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
They then heard the shed door shut, and.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
A few minutes later they heard screams coming from the
Barrelum's house.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
The neighbor didn't do anything about it.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
They didn't call the place of rending, but I'm assuming
that's probably.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Because they were used to shouting. The screaming coming from now,
because they used to argue a lot. Yeah, I mean
like much of it, but that's what I mean.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
You know, I've heard my neighbor you obviously shower our
kids is showing scream.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
I'm sure there's nothing more than that, but you know,
you just think that that's your neighbors. And he kind
of univer said, you never think there's anything sinister to it. Well, yeah,
of course, because you never you.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Never expected because you get people can you know, have
arguments and get mad at each other and have fallouts,
and you know you can hear raised voices and showering.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
It happens a lot. I mean, it happens if my house.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
There were sometimes, but you know it's just an argument
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
There's never anything sinister.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
And now as a neighbor, you just you don't want
to get involved in people's business too.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
You just tend to well, we don't want some people
did something you know personally, I you know, don't know.
But this same neighbor said that when the fire was
blazing and Daniel had ran out.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
With dominant, he noticed that he was dressed nicely. Normally,
Daniel had poor hygiene, He didn't wash very often, and
he always looked a bit scruffy.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
But in the early hours of the morning he was
fresh and showered and dressed.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
This seemed odd considering how he usually looked, but especially
at that time in the morning when he said that.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
He had woken up to over a pee and you know,
obviously yeah, yeah, you don't think you'd be obviously Jammy's
or boxers or whatever.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
He meant he should have messy here, he should have
had whatever he wears to bed on, yeah, like or
even addressing again everybody because you're like, oh, yeah, because
I mean, if you know, I.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
Suppose you know myself, if I was woken up and
then I realized there was a fire, I wouldn't I'd
be running out of what I've got on, yeah, or
if you got nothing on, grabbing like yeah, something like that.
I mean, obviously you had no clothes and then yeah,
I understand you would grab something to wear, but you're
not going to be too boyed about what it is.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Are You're just going to be desperate to get the house.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
You would grab the first thing that you've seen. Yeah,
And I said, like your here would be messy. You
wouldn't be all like you're hearing to be all brushed
and especially normally scruffy.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Anyway, Oh yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
And it said like he said, he got woken up
web for a p saw a mask intruder and the
house was all fired. So even they have had tiny
no get dressed exactly. So anyway, so the police thought
maybe he wasn't such a hero after all. Of course,
Daniel stuck to the story of the masked man, but
the police where I can convinced. So two days after
(13:59):
the murder, Daniel was arrested. So Daniel's computer was looked at,
and on the computer they found like short stories that
he would write about murder, and it was like like
kids killing each other and like fighting on the weighty
school and stuff like that. And on his browser history
(14:19):
there was things like how to get away with Murder.
He had been reading up on true crime cases as
well as well as fictional ones where but it was
always where young boys had murdered people. Right, He did
seem interested in any other true crime cases or fictional
ones either, but yeah, it was always just when young boys,
young boys were killed.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Investigators found a screenplay that.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Daniel had written, but he deleted it, but obviously they won't.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
So it was a bit of a boy called Daniel Barlom,
so he had the would change the names just and
he killed his mum, who was called Jackie Barlom, and
the murder was described exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
How Jackie was murdered in real life, and then the
story Daniel got away with him, right.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
It was noted that Daniel would also draw pictures or
people stabbing each other and like blood everywhere and quite disturborn.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
It does sound very disturbing here.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah, so you'd think that all these horror movies and
video games he was playing would it would have inspired
the way they carried out the murder. But in fact
it was actually a pop popular slop opera on British
TV called Coronation Street. And I'm talking about it in
a minute.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
But I had just.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
I personally I would have called him the Coronation Street
killer and we didn't connect it that much. But I've
got something else to say before we get to that, right,
So Professor Kevin Brown, who was a forensic psychologist, said
about Daniel quote he had already decided that he hated
his mother, and that he wanted his mother dead. He
had already decided that it was probably her fault in
(15:57):
his eyes, that he was in this unhappy situation, unhappy
at school, unhappy at home, and the divorce was her fall,
and therefore having made that decision to kill her, to
murder her, he was just then looking for an m
a technique how to do it. And that's probably where
the Coronation Street angle came in. So it was discovered
(16:18):
on his Internet browser that he'd been looking at the
storyline on Coronation Street where a character called John Stape.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Killed someone with a hammer. Oh the do you have
a teacher?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah, And although I don't remember it, I kind of
looked it up and yeah, he killed a woman with
a hammer, and then he dragged her over.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
He took her body over because it'd been.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Like a train crash or tram crash, and he killed
her body over there and left her so that it
would look like she'd been involved with a tract issue.
So I was just like, well, so the only similarity
was that he had killed her with a hammer.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah, And Daniel.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
Maybe or maybe the fact that he was making it
look like an acci cover it up to get it up.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah, yeah, I'm not.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
As I said, I'm not so sure I would have
kind of dugged down the cornage Street Killer.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Just because there was a storyline and a soap that
was similar. Yeah, probably not.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
He also had a YouTube channel and he would upload
clips from horror movies and also from soaps.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Like so when there was a murder or some violence and.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
A soap, he would like upload it to his YouTube.
And like these world just seemed to revolve where it
was horror, murder, violence. So of course I had a
look to see YouTube you tube channel was still there,
and it is, but there's only been five there's five
videos on it, so.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
The rest of us have been deleted. I don't know
why any of them would have been tep you think
the whole thing would be delayed. Oh yeah, So.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
To look at the videos, So one video is from EastEnders,
which is another British TV soap and it's called It's
it's called EastEnders. Zenaw gets chucked out, so her husband grabs.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Her and physically pushes them out of the door.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
That's basically they're like, you know, obviously like an argument
or something, having an argument and he sort of grabs
her back by the shoulders and he physically, you know,
pushes around the door.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah, that's sad.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
And then another video is East Enders filled HiT's Ben,
which is just a thirty second clip of film Mitchell
running in the house and a pit in his son
Ben right. And then the other three videos are of
Daniel and a man called Graham. I don't I don't
know who this Graham man is, but it was like
an older an older guy, and the videos are called
(18:32):
Camera Information one, Camera Information two, Camera Information three. So
I tried to watch something, but the sound was that
low I could barely hear what they were saying. But
I think it was some sort of like tutorials on taking.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Photos or something like that. They're all like a couple
of minutes long or something.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
So that's what I'm saying, Like, I don't understand why
that's been kept up with.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
All the other videos that he was uploading and being delayed.
Think they would just like the whole channel. Yeah, So
that's just a bit weird. Just mention it because I
looked at it.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
So Simon was interviewed about Diet Daniel, you know Jackie's
boyfriend Simon. He said that Jackie had found a smaller,
more affordable house in the Arnold's area of notting Arm.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
So this was before her and Simon had decided to move.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
In together, so this will be quite at the start.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Of their relationship or whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
And Simon had helped to pack up Daniel's bedroom and
you were getting rid of toys that he didn't.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Play anymore, like clothes that he had grown out of.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
And at the back of his wardrobe they found a
pile of Jackie's underwear.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
So, oh, I'm son had stolen her underwear and hidden
it in his room. That's weird.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
That.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
And then he had like plastic tubs like you know,
that his toys were in.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
But Simon discovered that those tubs were full of urine
that must have been there for quite some time.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Really, it gets worse.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Sim then also discovered that Danielle had defecated all over
in his room and wiped himself with towels, And then
the towels were like just sort of hiding my hundred room.
I actually thought was the house starts sticking surely? Oh yeah,
(20:20):
I mean, like does his mother not I don't know.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
I've mean like going to the room, like realize it
smells like but we have a you know, like mums do.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Have a look around. The tree's got washed and stuff,
but we find things I mean.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Like yeah, I mean I go in my daughter's room
just basically get there to get her washing or put
her clean washing in our room.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
So I didn't want it in and outer room for that.
But then maybe they didn't do that. Maybe they put
their washing and maybe they took them. I don't know,
I don't I honestly don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
How that could have been missed unless his bedroom door
was just shut all the time and he had a
window opened.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Maybe, but I still think that you would be able,
well you would think what you would think. I mean,
we don't know. We don't have that situation.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
They mustn't know, because otherwise she would have went in
and cleaned it. Or if I noticed that there was
a really bad spell come from my daughter's room, if
I didn't want any well, I would to confront her.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
But because obviously she's.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Not a problem child like what obviously Daniel is, and
I really might get your round tied up because it stinks.
But maybe in Jackie's situation, I would just went in
the room and cleaned it.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
Anyway, even I shouldn't want a confrontation when he was
at school, she wasn't. I don't know if she was
working or anything, but I don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
She wants to be working because she could buy a house,
so she was.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Oh yeah, But I mean it must be moments when
he was potentially at the house and she could have
even just went and if she didn't want confrontation.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
With him storm I don't know, but I mean, I
just I don't know.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
I don't know the situation, but it's it's very strange
that that spell didn't seem.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
To the rest of the house or even just a
case of where's all my tills gone? Maybe have lots
of toubles. I mean, it's just because I mean that yea,
just like.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
There was maybe only a couple of troubles they'd done
it with, you know, like he start doesn't that's he
had done that, but it doesn't he see he's doing
that all the time.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
True, So I might only just you know, being a
couple of troubles that you would notice that we're missing.
But yeah, as gross and you would think that they
would be a smell it. But so that Simon said
that Jackie just didn't want to.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Fuss, and that's why Daniel didn't really get told off
for doing anything.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
She just didn't want to be arguing with him. And
what an easy life, which we wanted.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Kenney said that before Yeah, so Daniel's behavior was starting
to it was also starting to concerned his teachers, and
he was said to see the school's counselor after he
claimed that his tie had a life of his own
and was trying to kill him. He told so went
to the councilor, and he told the counselor that he
was hearing voices in his head telling him to hurt people.
(23:05):
And actually, six weeks before the murder, Daniel had had
an assessment at a mental health unit because I.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Think the counselor are preferred up.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
To a mental health unit after obviously him said that
he was hearing her voice and stuff. But he was
found out no mental illnesses and was judged to be
of little or more risk to himself or others.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Well, they got that one wrong, so well no, not really,
you might not have had mental illness. Oh no, I
mean I mean, like I mean him being at risk
to others, because they obviously was got that wrong. But
they obviously can't tell that.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
I think that's probably difficult for a professional, because I mean,
I don't.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Think a professional she can really judge that, That's what
I mean.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
I mean, like you could go along and be really happy, chatty,
bubbly whatever else, but you could probably still have dark thoughts,
but you don't show that to somebody.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I mean, I'm sure they have ways of kind of
telling things, but surely the professionals, they are only getting
what you're telling them.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Your actions are your words. Yeah, so you could you
could easily put.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
An act on or whatever to conceal how you really
feel or how you really are, if you don't want
to be like, you know, judged on that.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
And it's kind of funny though, because like, if he's
saying that he's hearing voices and things, it sounds to
me as if he, if he hasn't got a mental illness,
he's trying to make it look like he does have
a mental illness, which makes me think that this is
all preparations you get away.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
But then the for whatever reason, the.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Professionals kind of went, well, no, you haven't got event alumnus,
which I find strange if somebody's telling you that they're
hearing voices and things like that, like, how do you I.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Don't know how. We're not comcials.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
We don't know how they determine it so exactly but
sadly obviously, but that could I couldn't have foreseen what
he was obviously going to do.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
No, of course, I mean we could have foreseen. I mean,
unless you could.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
But that's why I think it's just a bit a
bit risky to be kind of saying, know, this person
isn't a risk.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, it's a bit, you know, because.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Because you're a professional, so a lot of people are
going to take you at your words and say, right, well,
he's okay, he's not gonna hurt anybody's way, we maybe
don't need to do anything further.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
And then and then both does that. So yeah, isn't
it like a herd on that?
Speaker 1 (25:35):
So for weeks Daniel denied that he'd killed his mum,
but eventually admitted her and he told the place an
entirely different venter of events to wide originally sent, obviously
because there wasn't a mask intruder. So this time he
said that on that day he had argued with his
mom earlier on in the day and then later on
she went to bed and about one am he stormed
an air room, which we know that they tar a
(25:57):
massive argument about some new trainers that you couldn't find.
So as a result of that, he went and got
the hammer and hit her over the head many times,
pratture of her skull and her face, and then set fire,
set the fire and went to.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
The dominic and the dog head of the house.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
On the fourth of October two and eleven, Daniel pleaded
not guilty to the murder of his mum and Jackie, despite.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Having blood and turt death at the hammer. He claimed he.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Had been provoked from what I've seen.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
He didn't claim how he'd been provoked. You know, I
don't know if you just meant because they were arguing
and he got that angry. I mean, you get angry
and I get it, or just go and cool off
from your room and leave it. Don't go. We have
a harber exactly like, that's never the great answer. We've
always said, there's always a better way.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
So his child began on the twenty third of January
twenty twenty twelve, and to start off with, he was.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Like sitting quite meek, clear and like you.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Know, like looked like a little boy who was like
totally out of his depth.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
But when cross examined.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
By the pro secution, he became quite arrogant and he
basically just kind of game as good as he got.
Sounds like a ship look So doctor Elizabeth Yardley, who
is a criminologist, was asked why she thought that he
was still denying in core, and she said that he
thought that he still had that arrogance, like he still
thought that he could get.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Away with it, but then he already admitted it, so.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Yeah, to get it, but he was trying to get
he was like sticking the story that he was provoked,
and that way he was trying not so much trying
to get away with it, but like trying to make
it quite like get let's get some sympathy. Like And
the only time that Daniel looked at Simon at the
trial was towards the end of it, and he looked
(27:41):
Simon in the eye and he drew his finger across
his throat, like you know that action that you make
when you're like I'm going to kill your And Simon
said that if you know, he obviously thought Daniel was
trying to.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Be intimida but he didn't bring it in somebody.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
And he just thought that was Daniel being Daniel. That's
just the way he was. He was defying and he
just thinks he can do whatever he likes. M He
was like he was obviously used to. So he also
said that the trial. Simon said at the trial, Daniel
would put his head down a lot, but not because
he was remorseful for what he had done. His head
(28:16):
was in his hands, but he was peeping through it
to see who was watching them, like he wanted to
be attention. Yeah, in Simon's opinion, it was all for show.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
No remorse, no crying, just nothing. It was like Daniel
just can't even bothered with it all. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Then after two weeks the jury reached a decision, so
Daniel found guilty.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
And at this point he actually did show some emotion.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
He hung his head and looked like he was about
to cry. He put his head in his hands. But
I think it's just because he realized that he happened.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
What we were. He actually like realized the reality of
his situation. And I think that's exactly what it was.
It was like, yeah, there's no getting out of this now. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
So on the second of April twenty twelve, Daniel was
sentenced to life.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
In prison with a minimum of sixteen years. So he'll be.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Ll eligible for related in twenty twenty eight, but you
know it won't happen if he's still judged judge to
still be a danger to other sobs. I don't know
how he's behaving, and in prisons to.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
Probably grow grow, growed, do a lot of growing up,
because I'm assuming obviously he would have been in a child.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
One, but now you must be in an adults prisoner.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Thought he got transferred because he was fourteen, then I
don't know when you get transferred, if it's like sixteen
or eighteen, I don't know actually, but as a minimum,
I mean it will be in a in.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
An adult prisoner. Yeah, it will be so.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah. But so in my opinion, I think I think
he must have thought that obviously Kilby's fun, he set
the fire to try to cover it up, but he
didn't think it through properly because he obviously didn't think
that pole smart would be done and they would say
that she's been killed with the hammer something. Just wondering
(30:09):
if he actually thought that the fire would have completely
destroyed our body and everything.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
And to me, that's like, well, you didn't do your
research properly, then, did you.
Speaker 5 (30:20):
Well, considering all the research that he seems to have
done on his computer, he obviously didn't research what happens
when there's been a fire, like what investigations take place.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, you would have thought what happens to that body
when you burn it? You know? But then, I mean,
at the end of the day, was fourteen years old.
I mean, I don't think they've got the mental capacity
to you know, young think, Yeah, exactly, they don't have
the capacity th these things through properly.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
And I mean it shouldn't even be something that he's
actually thinking bloody through proper because he shouldn't be doing
it in the first place.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
But it was obviously a very troubled.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
Young man that it might you know, it sounds like,
I mean, there might have been other factors, but it
sounds like it stemmed from the divorce his parents and
him coming out.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Private school and like mainstream school.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Well just interrupt you there. On the experts that have.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Spoken about they've all.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Said that he had there didn't seem to be any
trauma in his life apart from divorce, not even the
private school thing. How many kids have because how many
kids have come from divorces, how many kids have moved schools.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
But you know, so that's what's kind of triggered. No,
like why that can't be.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
It be like, you know how many people and how
many kids have grown up and in a divorced family,
you know the parents.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
And they don't murdered. Yeah, exactly how many people have.
Speaker 4 (31:45):
But the triggered something for one person doesn't trigger it
for somebody else.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
No, you just don't know that. The mind is a
I don't think kids anything like that.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
I think he was just an angry kid and he
blamed his mum for everything. I don't think it was
like sort of trauma as such as being upset of
he's paying us being the water.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
I think he was iry that they got to walk.
Just don't mention where his dad's actually wasn't all listening. Well,
it's just so so that'd be kid, because you.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Would have thought maybe if even if his mom's having trouble,
then you know, maybe his dad could have sorted about
and he could have went loved his dad if it
was that bad.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
I don't know, maybe that wasn't an option. I don't
know the situation there, so I might not have been
an option.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
But yeah, so you well, thank you very much, so
thank you to everybody for listening, and we'll be back
soon later
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