The Deadly Dentist

Colin Howell and Hazel Buchanan had an affair and unfortunately their spouses were found dead in an apparent suicide pact. 19 years later though, Colin had a confession.

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Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Darkcast Network bringing our indie podcasts outof the shadows. Hi everyone. Before
we dive into this week's episode,please check out our promo of the week

(00:23):
Drkcast Network. The light shines brighteston our indie podcasts. Hey, They're
Rainbow Warriors. I'm CJ hosted Beyondthe Rainbow, True Crimes of the lgbt
My episodes focus on crimes committed byand against the LGBTQ community. I've covered

(00:43):
cases you probably have heard of,such as Matthew Shepard, Brandon Tina,
and the Orlando puls nightclub massacre,as well as some lesser known cases like
the murder of Ray Hainish, theAustralian gay beat murders, and the suspicious
discip parents of Lisa Lyndstone. Icover cases brought to me by listeners like

(01:04):
Penny Brummer, who I believe waswrongfully convicted, taboo cases such as lesbian
corrective rape and murder in South Africaand pray the Gay away camps. I
discuss gay serial killers, women whopretend to be men to hook up with
other women, and trans murders.I'm opinionated and uncensored. I know I'm

(01:27):
not everyone's cup of tea, butsurely i'm someone shot at tequila. No
matter what your gender or orientation inlife might be, please join me as
I tackle rainbow crimes in search ofunicorn justice. Remember it's not a crime
to be gay unless you're a murderer. Hello, I'm welcome to Crime divers

(02:21):
I'm Laura and I'm Jel. Welcomeback. Hello, everybody, welcome to
another episode of Crime divers So,Joe, what have you got? First?
Three? Right? Well, weare in Northern Ireland. I don't
think I've done I tried to accentthere, but no, please don't talk
of that same dub one. Ohthat's not that's not Norland. I don't

(02:44):
think so any Well, fac mightbee Northern Irelands like Missus Brown's boys.
What's the crack? What's I don'tknow. Yeah, we're inther than Ireland.
I don't actually think I've done anNorthern Ireland one before after an Ireland
or an Orland, but much ofwhich I think you did. But Irish,
I think you were did like Dublinor something like that. Yeah,

(03:05):
definitely Irish one. Yeah, becauseyou were talking about the GUARDA yes,
and I think that was a pictureon one actually, so anyway, what
is it called The Deadly Dentist?Oh? Yeah, well you would know
if you had actually listened to me, because I'm just going to call you
right now, right listeners. Iwatched The Secret on Netflix. It's a

(03:25):
I think it's a four part dramaand it's based on a true story.
And I watched it and it wasreally good, and I told Laura to
watch it. And I told Laurato watch it, and I told Laura
to watch it. Did she watchit? No? So I decided to
do our case on it instead.And now she's taking the right away from
me to watch it because I carrywatched her Netflix anymore. Yeah, because
she's a freeloader, yes, whowas using my Netflix? And but then

(03:50):
we changed our TV deal and weactually get Netflix for free now including our
TV deal, and we only getone screen. So I was like,
you know what, buck off,you didn't watch on Netflix? Watch every
none nobody else was watching it.But if I do that, then I
have to let everybody else use it. Don't tell them. Let's hope that
number listening to the podcast then,because honestly, we had two we only
had two screens before, but wehad Laura watching it. We had John's

(04:14):
dad. He watched our two kids, both the kids, one of John's
friends. So I was watching,Yeah, your daughter was watching it,
so everybody had So there was actualtimes when I went on or John went
on to watch Netflix and we canwatch it because somebody else was watching it.
So I said that you could,you should message me and I would
come up with it. Yeah,well I could tell who it was.

(04:35):
It was never you was never No, it was never you. Was usually
the kids, like our kids,it was usually one of them. And
because it will say what they're watchingit on, so I would know who
it was by what they were whichdevice they were watching it on. So
anyway, so now I don't Lauradoesn't have access to Netflix anymore. So
I refused to pay for it becauseshe refuses to babe for it because she's

(04:57):
she's like got more money than wedo. But yeah, t y,
it's a tight So anyway, soI decided to do a case on it
instead. But when I watch watchit, you'll get the seven day free
trial. I pod that before.Oh well I don't know, not my
problem so you want to dive in. But well anyway, just just um

(05:20):
tell everybody know yet that it's calledThe Secret and it's on Netflax, and
I really recommend watching it. It'sgot the guy. Is it James and
his bit? Yeah, he's he'salways in good stuff too. Well exactly.
That's why I thought you'd like it. Well, I just forgot about
it when I when I went towatch it, I didn't know that it
was a true story. I wasjust looking on Netflix or something to watch

(05:42):
and it came saying The Secret.I thought, oh, well, Secret,
you know that can be quite good. Um, and it isn't.
Util kind of I think when itfirst comes on, it says that it's
a true story, and I waslike, oh, all right, okay.
The first opening scene was a Jamesand his bit and I think he
was singing or playing a guitar orsome or tamburi or something, and I
was like, oh my god,I do not like him. And that's
how good he is at playing thecharacter. Because I really liked James this

(06:06):
but I mean I've watched the loadsof things and the fact that straight away
I was like, oh no,I do not like this guy. This
is a bad guy and you're straightaway. So that's that's how good.
He was it, So yeah,it's a really I really recommend it.
And from researching it now and rememberingback to the secret is very true to
life. Even though it's a dramatization, it is very true to life.

(06:29):
Cool. So yeah, so I'drecommend that. So let's go. Let's
go. So at one thirty pmon Sunday, the nineteenth of May nineteen
ninety one, in a place calledCastle Rock in Northern Ireland, police entered
the garage to a house and founda man and a woman dead in a
car. The woman was lying onher back in the boot and she had

(06:50):
a walkman beside her, and shehad headphones over her ears. She also
had three framed photos next to her. The man was in the driver's which
was fully reclined. His hands wereon the stair and wheel, and his
right leg was like hanging out.The car door wasn't shut properly, so
it was like was sort of sohis foot was on the ground. He
was leg was hanging out, andthere was a hosepipe fitted onto the exhaust

(07:13):
and it extended into the boot.Probably, So let's real wind to the
beginning. Yes, Leslie Howell,our maiden name was Clark had been married
to Colin Howell since nineteen eighty three. She was a nurse and he was
a dentist and when this case began, they had three children together. They
lived in Coleraine, which is inCounty London Derry. They were members of

(07:38):
the local Baptist church, with Colinbeing a lay preacher, which is basically
just a preacher who hasn't been formallyordained. Had to look that up.
Yeah, I knew you would knoweither sought. Yeah, better look it
up. And of course I meanI'm sure probably loads our listeners do know.
But just in case anybody lesson fortoday? Yeah, what was it?
Every day? The school day exactly. Colin also volunteered with the church

(08:01):
Sunday School, so they described themselvesas devout Christians. So Trevor Buchanan was
married to Hazel Buchanan. Her maidenname was Elkin, so they moved to
Colrain in nineteen eighty six. Hewas a Royal Ulster Constabulary Constabulary officer,
which was the police force in NorthernIreland from nineteen twenty two to two thousand

(08:24):
and one, but now I thinkit's just known as the Police Service of
Northern Ireland, but when he wasin it it was a Royal Ulster Constabulary
officer. But I'm just going tocall a policeman. I can see why
they changed the name of that.Yeah, I'm just going to call a
policeman exactly. Yeah. So he'sa police officer and he's all worked as
a nursery assistant and that's where shefirst met Leslie and Colin as their three

(08:45):
year old daughter attended that nursery.The Buchanans joined the same church as the
house and Haze all start to helphim with the Sunday school. So Trevor
and he has all had two children, and he was very much a family
man if he wasn't working, andthey always had jobs to do around a
house as they entertained often and theyalways wanted the house looking immaculate. He
would often talk about Hazel on thekids to his work colleagues and like he

(09:09):
would do anything for him. Theywere his world. They got married when
Trevor was twenty one and Hazel wasseventeen, and they seemed to be devoted
to each other. However, yeah, that's not going to laugh. One
day in nineteen ninety, Hazel Buchananand Colin Howell chaperoned a Sunday school swimming
lesson. They started fluttering with eachother and it was clear that they fastied

(09:30):
each other, and there wasn't ickybit oh that I kind of cringed when
I watched it on the Secret andI can't even remember what it was now.
I was like, I'm not evengoing to write it down because it
was in the research as well.And you know, he said something to
her and she said something back tohim. It was like, cringe,
I don't need to know that.So Colin played the guitar at church.

(09:52):
So when Hazel decided that she wantedto learn to play, who better to
teach her than Colin? Did shereally want to learn the guitar? So
he would go round to her houseto give her lessons, and funnily enough,
they were always arranged for a winterhusband Trevor was at work, so
wonder what kind of lessons she actuallygot. I'm not sure it was in

(10:13):
guitar anyway. So it wasn't longbefore Colin and Hazel were having an affair.
They would meet at Hazel's house forsex at night when Trevor was working
night shift and her children were asleep, or they would meet up during the
day and have sex in the car, and like there was there's like a
woods and there's like a car park, you know, at the woods,
and they would meet there probably,So they were smitting to each other and

(10:35):
would spend as much time as thecoude together. They even developed like a
secret code to contact each other becauseobviously we didn't have mobiles, and so
they were like phone each other onthe landline. So like one would say,
like for instance, like if Hazelphone call in if the phone stopped
drinking, like she'd let it ringonce and if it stopped before he got
to it, he would know thatit was her and it was all right

(10:58):
for him phone her back so thatthey could talk to each other, because
obviously she wouldn't before and on whileTever was in the house. So that
would be the code, say it'sokay, so what to do the little
bit phone imture that much more affairshappened now a lot easier. Worn So

(11:18):
while this affair was going on,Leslie felt pregnant with her and Colin's fourth
child. But this didn't stop theaffair, right were donhiming Hazel, you
know you'd think, oh, well, it's pregnant. Maybe I should know.
Didn't happen. They carried on,but soon after he's actually became pregnant
as well. With Collins child.That's getting serious. Now, well I'm

(11:39):
not I'm not actually sure if itwas definitely Colins child or she wasn't too
sure. So it was like,what like what happens with it is Kennethy.
So Colin told her that he wouldarrange for her to get an abortion
in England because abortion was still illegalin Northern Ireland at that time, so
he's all was understandably worried about this, but Colin issued to her up it

(12:00):
would all be fine, because afterall, he had arranged three abortions in
the past for Leslie before they weremarried. So Hazel was reluctant to commit
another sin in their religion, ashaving the affair was also a sin,
but Colin pointed out that having achild out of wedlock and divorcing their partners
would also be sins, so andthey would be excommunity excommunicated from their church,

(12:24):
so that wasn't happening. So okay, you're you're going to have an
abortion. So then she agreed andthey both traveled to London for the termination,
so we know how they got awaywith that one. Are you gonna
for our listeners who can't see,we just roll but eyes are because she
does this quite regularly. Now I'mliterally just about to explain something and she

(12:48):
asks the question, help it.I know you can, It's okay.
Well it would be about rubbish ifyou weren't because if you weren't asking questions,
and that would be maybe you weren'tinterested exactly. I want no one
of them. Yeah, So heand Trevor had been arguing quite a lot
and Trevor was just exhausted from it. And when he's went to London,

(13:09):
she had left him a note justsaying going through a really hard time.
Don't worry about me, don't tryto find me. I'll be back in
a few days. Love you.And when she got home, it was
just so happy to see her thathe didn't question like where she'd been or
like what she'd been doing. ButI don't know what Colin's excreuse was for
him getting away, but Leslie obviouslywasn't happy about it because she had recently

(13:31):
just given birth to their fourth child. So he just left her with three
kids and a baby. He gotaway for a couple of days. So
I don't know what excuse she couldgive for that, but I can imagine
she'd be absolutely human. And sheactually mentioned to the pastor that she was
feeling beginning to feel a bit suspiciousof the time that Colin and he's all
were spending together. And soon after, unfortunately for the happy couple, they

(13:54):
were actually spotted by a member ofthe church sitting in their cars in the
castle row for us. So,not that they were doing it doing anything.
I think they were just sitting chatting, but obviously it looks a bit
dodgy like married people in the carpark, especially ones who are so religious.
Yeah, I just think it lookeda bit dodgy. So the church

(14:15):
member reported them. Knows the pastordto the pastor of the church, John
of Hansford, so he made hisway straight to Colins Dental Surgery and asked
him if he was having an affair, because she knows everybody's business. Yeah,
I like, is that the pastor'sright to go? And yeah,
So Colin denied it. It seemedstunned that he was even being asked that

(14:37):
question. Pastor John wasn't convinced,so he left the dental surgery and headed
to Hazel's house. He asked ifshe was having an affair with Colin,
and she said no, she wasn't. They talked about Trevor, her husband,
and she mentioned that she wished hewas more exciting. Pastor John said,
quote, I told her you maynot be the exciting husband she wanted,

(14:58):
but in terms of faith on us, he was not to be despised
but cherished. So he has I'lldroll Pastor John home. But on the
way home, well, on theway Today's house, she broke down in
tears and told him that she wasshe was having an emotional affair with Colin.
Okay, she wasn't. She wasadamant. It wasn't physical. It

(15:18):
was just obviously like must have justbeen Kenny thinking about it. Maybe a
bit flirting, you know. Itwasn't anything. Hadn't overstepped the market yet
obviously they had. So that's soshe's now lying, yes, I'm sure
it is um So. Pastor Johnthen went over the Howl's house and he
told Leslie what was going on.But Pastor John had she got though,
I thought, when you go andconfess to people that not like in secret?

(15:41):
Was that well, I don't think. Well, I don't know.
I think is that not? Differentlyyou have to actually go and confess,
whereas this was just a conversation.I don't know, because I'm not religious,
I don't know how these things work. But Pastor John obviously was getting
involved. He was getting all upin their business, and he told Leslie
what was going on, and theyboth waiting for Colin to get home from
work, and they confronted him andhe admitted the affair. So Colin and

(16:07):
he were both told that they hadto repent their sins and they would have
to go for counseling because they wereat end the affair and patch up their
marriages. So they were told todo the Christian thing and stay in the
respect of marriages. To worse,was not permitted in the church, so
they had not no option but todo as they were told because they were
you know, they wanted to stayin the church so they couldn't get the

(16:29):
worst. So when he's all confessed, Trevor, he forgave her and decided
to fight for their marriage. Hehaded like a gentleman, and when Colin
apologized to him face to face anda meeting with the pastor. He accepted
his apology and he would shook hishand. That's a better man. A
lot of people been able to dothat. If a woman came at me

(16:52):
and apologized me to me for havingaffair of my husband, she get a
punched in the vest. Yeah,I'm just gonna say, yeah, I
don't commit, don't usually I knowkind condoned violence, but I don't think
it will help myself. No,exactly, because that's awful. I certainly
wouldn't be shaking her hand and putthat. Absolutely not. So. Leslie
was obviously feeling very insecure, andshe wanted to five for her marriage too,
and she started going for like sunbedsessions. She was dyeing her hair,

(17:15):
she was dying go to robots classwith her friend. And I just
thought, that is awful that youfeel that you have to do that for
your husband. But your husband shouldlove you no matter what. Yeah,
exactly, real and probably better versionsthan ourselves. But you know, you
know, she's she's had four kidsrecently, just having the fourth one.
Yeah, Gidman a break. Yeah, she shouldn't have to be doing all
that stuff when she's a mother.A new born. They like your body's

(17:37):
change over time, Like, mybody is not the same as it was
when I first met just in anI don't have a daughter, and you
know I'm not I'm not as lightas I used to be. But you
know, does does just love meany less? No? No, it
doesn't. Let's be honest. Imean he's no six pack man either.
I mean both were both not thesame as we were when we first met,

(18:02):
which is the same and most marriagehas noticed that they were. They
don't. You know, people change, the people's physical physically change. I
think you know you love people becauseyou loved them, not and the fact
that she felt that she had tochange that as awful. And Leslie told
her friend that Colin had been givenher tablets. I think it would like
to help her get to sleep.So she told her friend that he was
looking after her, Like that's theway it came across it. He was

(18:23):
looking after me, He's giving thetablets, he's helping me. So both
couples, they started counseling sessions withthe pastor. Both Trevor and Leslie felt
like they hadn't been good enough spouses, which, as we just kind of
said that's awful like it was.They should be feeling like that their spouses
cheered on them, and it wasn'ttheir fault exactly. They're the ones that

(18:44):
are in the wrong, so theyshould never have been feeling like they weren't
good enough. Their fault. Sothe counseling session seemed to be going well,
and when the pastor left her Indiafor six weeks, he felt confident
that the healing process was going reallywell and heading in the right direction.
I'm assuming that clearly is not goodto be the case. We shall see.
So before he left, he spoketo Colin and he told him he's

(19:04):
all doing well. She's moved onand sociould you. So March nineteen ninety
one was when Colin and he hasonly both had their birthdays, and then
they must have been thinking about andI thought, you know what, I'm
just going to see if she hasmoved on. I'm just going to check,
because that's the right thing to do, isn't it, to actually get
in contact with the personally keeping awayfrom So he phoned her and yeah,

(19:26):
she told him that she that shewould love him until she was old and
gray. So obviously she hadn't movedon, So now that and moved on.
I just made it out like theyhad moved on just to keep the
pieces basically, So this is whenthe affair resumed. But this time around
they weren't only to see when theirfamilies they were portraying the church now,
because obviously they were, you know, after all this council with pastor drawing

(19:48):
and all the rest of it.So, as I said before Colin was
given leslie tablets, which I thinkmust have been sleeping pills, is when
she was asleep, he would sneakout the house and he would either jog
or cycle through the woods and hewould our Hazel's garden, buy our back
gate. Obviously they only did thiswhen Trevor was working night. I'm just
gonna say it like that's the enfulbrain thing to do. I told you
that they should meet up at herhouse when when Trevor was working, I

(20:11):
mean at nighttime. I was wasn'texpected. Well I did actually say it,
okay, so you also weren't listeningproperly. Wake up. They used
to have sex when Trevor was workingat night, at nighttime, when our
kids were asleep. I did saythat so so they only did it when
Trevor was working night, so theyknew that obviously they weren't going to be
disturbed, just hope children don't wakeup. So Trevor seemed to have completely

(20:36):
forgiven Hazel, Like if you everspoke about the affair to anyone else,
he would like downplay it, andthey would say things like, well,
I'm not perfect either, you know, try to kind of justify it and
away, and I'm like, no, that's no, they're not justifying that.
But Leslie wasn't as as forgiven.And I'm not surprised as this wasn't
the first time that Colin had cheatedon her. In nineteen eighty nine,

(20:57):
he'd turn an affair with an oldclass mate from university, so she's probably
never trust him since then. Andlike every time Colin left the house,
like Leslie would have it in theback of your mind that he was going
to meet Hazel. So cause thiscause arguments, and understandably, like Leslie
just couldn't let it go. No, I don't blame her. If if

(21:18):
I knew that my husband cheat onme, I would never belty let that
go. I mean, you canforgive somebody, but forget. You can
try and forgive and move on withlife, but you always with you,
especially if you if they've done itmultiple times, I know he was just
once, Like what there's a oneoff? Like they've done it more with
different people, then you're never goingto trust them fully. So can you

(21:40):
blame her exactly? I mean exactlythe same, probably exactly the same,
but whatnot? It's to me,it's like just saying that you're a devout
Christian and yet you're cheating on yourwife more than once. Now, are
you a devout Christian? No?Definitely not. You just like to try
and look like one. Yes.So one day they started arguing because Colin
and had been late home. Lesliedecided to go for a bath and she

(22:03):
took the cassette player into the bathroomwith her. So he was so angry
with her about accusing him of stillhaving an affair that he actually considered electricating
her in the bath. And Idid it. In a couple of sources,
it was different, and a sourceI read that he did actually put
it in the bath, but anotherone, but this particular one I was
kind of coming coming from, saidthat if he flicked the card across her

(22:26):
back to let her know that hecould have done it if he wanted to,
and then he just dropped the plugon the floor and then just walked
out. So Leslie later called afriend and told her that what had happened,
and she said, I'm telling youjust in case something happens to me.
So Leslie was really close to herdad, Annie Clark, and she
told him that she thought Colin andHazel had started up the affair again.

(22:47):
So he took He was like,Rick, just leave. You know you're
worth more than that. You know, you shouldn't be putting out because she
was so concerned about the church,so this this is all like the center
of it is the church. Whatthey would think, Yeah, but Harry
was like, who gives a shitabout the church? You know you do?
You like, you're not happy,your husband's been cheating on you.

(23:08):
If you leave, then you leaveand like and he's like, I'll give
you money so that you know thatyou don't have to worry about money.
I've got money. I'll give youmoney, so you like she could live
independently with the kids, which shereally had to rely on him for anything,
but she didn't know. She stayedand unfortunately them. Not long after
that, on the seventh of Mayninety ninety one, Leslie's dad, Harry

(23:29):
died and he was actually staying atthe house house at the time of his
death, like he just collapsed,but no post postmartinm was carried out and
the cause of death was given hisheart failure. And I'm not saying I'm
not accusing anybody of anything, buthe wasn't an old man. I mean,
I think by looking at him,maybe you know, fifties or something

(23:52):
like that, and he's just droppeddown dead. Why did they not do
a postmartom Yeah, because he thinkthey would want to try and find out
because of that. Yeah. AndI will say, as I said,
I'm not I'm not accusing anybody ofanything, but her brother actually has his
assistance suspicions about that. It couldhave been calling that do something. But

(24:17):
as I said, it'sn't that.There's been no, No, it's not
been. It's not more than whatI thought I thought of her brother's song.
And it's not I mean, everybodycan have their thoughts. Obviously,
I mean he might he might wellhave just you know, had her failure
or whatever. But I just Ijust looked strange that he didn't. They
didn't just post morte. But Leslieobviously was like absolutely devastated, and a

(24:38):
few days after her death she evensaid a calling that she she would be
better off dead. She was thatlow, because I mean, it's one
hingdreeming for your dad, but alsohaving the troubles in your relationship at the
same time, and you know heprobably wasn't there for her. He's off
having an affair so exactly, andshe's got four kids. Yeah, so
you can imagine how she'd be failingit totally. So in the morning of

(25:02):
the nineteenth of May nineteen ninety one, Colin phoned one of the church elders,
Jim Flanagan. He told him thatLeslie had gone off last night and
hadn't came home, so he wasworried and asked him to come over.
So Jim arrived. Colin had asix month old baby on his knee and
the three older kids were playing inanother room. He told Jim that he
had seen Hazel driving off with TrevorBuchanan the night before, and he showed

(25:26):
him a note that he had foundfrom Leslie. It read, Dear Colin,
I'm just trying to go to sleepnow how long, I don't know.
Thank you for your help over thepast few days and for the good
times in our marriage. I don'tknow what to say to you because I
don't know how I feel. ButI've seen that life goes on after a
few weeks of pain. And let'sface it, Colin, I am nothing

(25:48):
in comparison to what you lost inthe one you loved a while back.
If I wake up in the morning, just let this beer secret all my
love Leslie. Okay, We'll kindof touched him that later. So I
was talking to Jim about where Lesliecould have gone. Colin asked Jim to
check Leslie's dad's house because obviously shewas greaving, and but it quite possible

(26:11):
that that's what she could have justfor a bout of time. So he
had the four children to look after, which is why he hadn't checked himself.
So of course Job obliged, andwhen he came back a while later,
he was like, Noah, there'sno sign of Leslie or Trevor.
One thing I did not, soI don't I don't know what was going
on with them. He's at thispoint like, I don't know she reported

(26:32):
Trevor or missing or I've only kindof seen like Colin side of her.
So Colin then asked him again attwelve thirty to check Leslie's dad's house.
Anyway, this time we would givehim the keys because obviously the first time
we just kind of went knock atthe door and matter. So it's like,
right, here's the keys. Sobecause I have a proper look,
so Jim was like, right,okay, So he asked the police officer
and it was also like a memberat the church and like a friend,

(26:55):
but it was also a police officer, so I don't think he asked him
in the capacity or a police officerto be a place off. Yeah,
they called David Green to go withthem. So they got to the house
about one twenty pm and entered ahouse for a look around. David had
to look upstairs and Jim had alook downstairs. They didn't see anything around
toward in the house, so Jimwent to the garage. So he opened
the door and saw the house carhad been reversed in and he could just

(27:18):
see a man slumped over in thefront seat. So Jim shouted for for
David and he ran in and hesaw that it was Trevor Buchanan and sitting
in the front seat of the car. He checked for a pulse, but
thirty two year old Trevor was unfortunatelydead. So then they looked around him
that they saw thirty one year oldLeslie Howell Line in the boot, wearing

(27:38):
her headphones with family photos around her, and found that she too was gone.
So one photo was of Leslie andher mum, another was of Leslie,
her brother and her dad, andthe other was of Leslie and Colin.
That sound a bit and the sounda bit strange about that. There's
exactly that was where's the kids?I was expecting you to say the kid?

(28:00):
It was more than now. Soofficers were called to the scene.
So the starter our story hero whenthe officers went in and found them so
and to them it was an openingshotcase suicide. Yeah. They could smell
the exhaust fumes. The khaku wasturned on in the ignition and a layer
of suit covered the boot, explainedby the host pipe of a hoover that

(28:21):
was next to Leslie's head and connectedto the exhaust. The new of Colin
and Hazel's affair, so they assumedthat they had a suicide pact. That's
just see that I would have morelikely said it would have been the other
way around, like with the twothat were having their affair because they couldn't
be together and maybe they just decidedto do that. Like that, Just
that that just alarmed bells, bringingin my head, like why are the

(28:42):
two innocent partners but the ones thatare dead? Well, I was just
saying, well, I was actuallyin the middle of that sentence. I
wouldn't believe. Well, they assumedthat they had a suicide pact as they
were unable to cope with the betrayalof their spouses and the shame that brought
in such a god fearing community thatthey decided to take their own lives.

(29:04):
I just don't really like I justI just I just wouldn't believe it.
I just you can't say that.But I am my opinion, not I
think what you're in your opinion.Yeah, because we're doing a true Crown
case the Hazel and not Hazel.Sorry, Colin, no wrong one,
Tvor. Leslie and Trevor had beenconsoling each other, not in a bad

(29:30):
way, but they had been likestarted talking and everyone like that, you
know, kind of consoling each other. So I don't think it's I don't
think that that's what's the word.Unbelievable. Yeah, it's not unbelievable.
I do think that they should investigateit, but I don't think it's unbelievable
that my husband's something an affair withyour wife. We can't live with the

(29:51):
shame, so we're going to takeour own lives. So I don't see
why that would be unbelievable. Butwe're we're skeptical. Um, yeah,
so that's what so. And rememberwhen police visited calling to give them news,
he showed them that suicide note truethat Leslie had already written, easily

(30:11):
could have written himself. Leslie wroteit. Yeah, so she did write
it. Yeah, So as assoon as I know, there's to me,
I think that's totally understandable why theywould think that, but still think
they should investigate. And also aswell, this was it was confirmed tom
So. Yeah, so it waspointing to suicide. So this was confirmed

(30:33):
to them when the medical examiner reportedthat their deaths had been caused by carbon
monoxide poisoner. So obviously that's aquestion I have. As you said at
the start, that Trevor's leg washanging out the door, so the door
of the car with opens, Sohow did the gas not escape from the
doors and then it didn't Well we'redo but they get the garage door shut,

(30:57):
the garage felled, the garage up. Yeah, I just think been
in the car filled the garage up. Makes sense. Um, yeah,
So that's why to me, Ican totally see it. I think I
think you're looking at as a Ithink I think in that in the time,
I don't think you would be soquick. I think you'd maybe have

(31:18):
suspicions, but I don't think you'dbe so quick to be like really because
you just see it, because youjust do see like people who two people
who are devastated. There's a suicidenote they've died by the poison and so
and well, but we'll get ontoit. But like it was, they
could have got away way to putit that way, But we'll get on
that. So Colin and he is, I'll stop their affair after their partner's

(31:41):
death, but a few months laterthey started up again. I think they
were just trying to make it,you know, like we'll be better not
be together, because then that's probablyreally spicials, so well, you know,
we'll stop. But a few monthslater started up again and they were
together for five years before splitting upin nineteen ninety six. So a card
and a carding or two people diedor for five year relationship. According to

(32:05):
an article that I read on theSunday The World, Hazel's Christian guilt meant
that Colin could only have sex withher after he had sedated her with drugs
from his dental surgery. So shefelt that guilty that that's only she could
have sex with him lovely. AndI did see his said, I mean
like I watched the Secret Um thatwhich was a dramatization, and that kind

(32:29):
of did kind of touch quite alot on how guilty he's always feeling so
with throughout their um. Obviously,when you're just reading reports and things like
that, you don't get all thatkind of stuff, but it did touch
on sort of how it affected theirrelationship was because of her guilt. So
it's quite understandable that that's why itdidn't last, because the guilt was too

(32:50):
much. Yeah, the saf Ican't of thought about that, and I
thought, I hope that doesn't soundlike we're I'm making up excuses for her.
So one night Colin had organized Iget together at his house for the
Barn Christian Fellowship, and a womancalled Kyle Jorgensen turned up with her two
young children. She was American andour marriage had broken down and she'd went

(33:13):
to Northern Ireland to study at theUniversity of Ulster. So they, you
know, got together. They marriedin nineteen seventy seven, nineteen ninety seven,
and they went on to have threechildren together. So between the two
of them they had nine children.Wow, that's a lot. That is
a lot. It's like the BradyBunch. So after splitting up with Colin,

(33:36):
Hazel started to see a guy thatshe had dated twenty years earlier,
Trevor McCaulay. But she ended upcheating on him and Trevor, Yeah,
she ended up cheating on him witha guy called David Shirt that she met
at the chim that Trevor actually paidher membership for. I thought that was
about cheek. Anyway, she marriedDavid, she could stop on our favorite

(33:57):
something else. Yeah, But Ithink it's just knowing that they weren't the
ones that killed them, that's trueto Anyway, she married David and became
Hazel Stuart in two thousand and five. So one day in two thousand and
seven, Remember this happened right backin like ninety one, So May two
thousand and seven, the phone rangin the Houll's house. Colin answered it,

(34:20):
and it was the British embassy inMoscow. So they told him that
his eldest son, Matthew, haddied. Matthew was twenty two and he
was on a placement in Saint SaintPetersburg as part of his undergraduate language course
at Saint Andrews. And I don'tlook, I think, but it was
basically what it said was that he'dlost his grip on a stairwell and he'd

(34:40):
fell four floors and an apartment blockon a concrete surface below and died instantly.
So I think, you know,you think like apartment buildings where we've
got railings, and he's been onthe railing and his fellows something. I'm
not quite sure how it happened,but apparently his best friend saw it happen
time. Can you imagine that?Oh, so obviously i'man Colin was absolutely

(35:06):
devastated by son's death, and hesaw this as a punishment from God.
Right. So he struggled for justover a year and a half and then
one day, as wife Kyle phonedthe church elders and asked them to come
to her in Colin's house. Okay, so the church elders where they were
actually used to being called to theearl's house, as Colin had been unfaithful

(35:28):
to Kyle several times, so nowthat like change their spots were both still
cheating them on their partners, andeach time he would confess to the elders
as if that's going to make itbetter, like just stop doing it,
then you won't have to confess,and so they're like, oh, all
right, here we go. Wascheered again. So the elders arrived and
Colin confessed that he had lost hundredsof thousands of pounds on a scam which

(35:53):
he had expected to make sixty betweensix and eight million from right, Well,
as you're going to think, Iknow what you're like at the Metadimes
you just see people all about.So basically the gist of it is that
it was caught by a man inthe Philippines that he'd never met. It

(36:14):
was told that there were projects goingon going on in the Philippines trying to
recover hidden gold that had been stashedaway by the Japanese at the end of
World War two. Right, sohe made an initial an initial investment from
selling his two dental practices. Butafter six months and no sign of the
missing treasure, it was told thatthe gold was hidden in underground bunkers,

(36:37):
but the costs involved in bringing thebars to the surface were higher than originally
anticipated. What the fuck? Soit was told that they had been booby
trapped, the bunkers filled with poisonousgas, and more money was needed.
So he was told that there wasonly forty feet of tunnel to dig to
get to the gold. So that'sall that was left. So we're nearly

(36:59):
there. You just need a littlebit more. But he had invested three
hundred and fifty three thousand pound bynow and had no money left. So
he decided to approach some of hisfriends to see if anyone, but anybody
would be interested in backing the project. So I writ an article in the
Belfast Telegraph, so I'm going toquote from there. So I'm assuming that

(37:20):
Colin must have gotten this person tospeak to one of the people involved in
the con So there He's always like, well, doesn't believe me. Here's
the guy and this is what hisfriend was saying about the guy or whatever
or the situation so cool. Ithought to myself, are these people wise?
And that's totally an Irish like,I said, are you wise?

(37:42):
Are they crazy? But they weredead serious. There was all this hidden
gold, but they had put explosivedevices around it. There was gas which
had to be neutralized. It wasall heavily guarded. Howell told me that
he had put in one hundred thousandand he was going to take out between
six and eight million. I don'tknow what. I don't know why.
I only said that invest one hundredthousand because it had been three hundred and

(38:04):
fifty three year away. They hetold me the Lord's hand was in He
told me the Lord's hand was inthis, and they were going to get
money for doing the lord's work,funding some sort of missionary exercise. I
just chuckled and laughed to myself.I asked Colin, who owns this quote?

(38:24):
Who owns this gold? Like?Was it the Japanese? Which government?
Was it the landowner who owned thetitles to the gold? And he
seemed to be taken aback because itwas obviously he hadn't really thought about it.
So basically Colin just threw hundreds ofpounds hundreds of thousands of pounds and
to get rich quick scheme without evenlooking at it properly with it. With

(38:46):
his friends obviously been skeptical about theinvestment. Colin decided to travel to Manila
in the Philippines, and he wasconfident he would get some of the gold
because he was like, right right, I'm just gonna go on starting this
out for myself. I'm going togo and get my money. So the
cornman, cornman. The cornman musthave had two boxes delivered to Colin's hotel
in Manaa as he was expecting,because he was expecting these boxes, and

(39:09):
he was expecting in these boxes tosee two bars of gold when he opened
them. But all that was inthe boxes were a couple of silver dollars
and an old bank and old banknotes that were thirty US dollars. So
very well and truly corn So havinglost all his money, he owed a
lot of money to his patience andlike to the revenue. So Colins saw

(39:32):
losing that money as a punishment fromGod. So that's what he had to
confess that to the elders. Thenthat's not all that's convested Jesus. Then
he confessed that he had been molestin patience at his dental practice between the
years of nineteen ninety eight and twothousand and eight, as he just couldn't
control his sexual urges, so hewas like putting them out with the gas

(39:52):
and molesting them. And then hemade his final confession. Do you know
what this is going to me?He killed his wife. I'm Trevor.
How did you know that? Imean, yeah, he killed his wife,
Leslie Howell and Hazel's husband, TrevorBucaram. He had actually already he

(40:14):
had actually already told Kyle, hiswife, about the murders way back when
they had their first child together,and she still wanted to be with him.
So yeah, so I think itwas maybe about eleven years that she
had known about it for but hehad persuaded her to keep quiet for the
sake of the children. But youwere I would be like totally next,
totally on edge all the time,like wondering if I do something wrong,

(40:37):
orf I say something wrong. Maybethat's why she's allowed up with cheat all
the time. Because she just wantedit. Yeah. Probably if she did
anything that he might just kill her. Yeah, probably, she would probably
scares um. Yeah, So she'dknown about it for all those years.
But however, in late two thousandand eight, Colin admitted to her that
he'd had another affair after his sonMatthew died. So she she threw him

(40:58):
out. She's okay that you know. In the following month, she told
him she's hard enough and it wastime for him to confess everything to the
Elders and of course the police.I would I would have confience because you
might have tried to kill her Ashut up? Well good, I get
what you mean. But I thinkshe must have just got that. She

(41:20):
just had enough. Basically, shejust snapped and she was lit there and
she said to him, quote,the truth will set you free. There's
grace, there is grace. TheLord has given you another chance. If
you love your life, you won'tlose it. End quote. And then
she called the elders. So whatactually happened to Leslie and Trevor? Yes,

(41:43):
I'm going to tell you, goodbecause we do. Actually no,
So, Colin and Hazel had hadone of their usual meetups in the Woods
one day and they were talking abouthow they wanted to be together, but
of course divorce wasn't an option becausethat wasn't allowed in the church. Um.
So Colin told Hazel that he hadthought of a way to get rid
of their spouses so they could betogether properly. He was going to kill

(42:05):
them. And I think what actuallygave him the idea was the fact that
his wife, Leslie had said thatshould be better off dead, and I
think that put the idea of howto do it, and he said so
so yeah, So he told her, told Hazel that he was going to
kill them. So he handed hera packet of tim as apan and told
her it crushed them up and putthem in Trevor's dinner on the eighteenth of

(42:29):
May. So Trevor was a bigfitman, so Colin needed dump to be
unconscious and then he All Hazel hadto do after that was just to open
the garage door, moved Trevor's carout of the way. That's it,
that's all you have did it.So I was like heat. As for
Colin, one of his son's birthdayswas coming up, so he told Leslie

(42:52):
on the night of the eighteenth thathe was going into the garage to set
up their son's gift, which wasa slide. So he was going at
the garage to put together I'm actuallynot sure. I think it could have
been his birthday that day or thefollowing day, was it. Yeah,
So while you know, while he'sbuilding a slide, he cut up like
a baby bottle and he adapted itto fit over the exhaust pipe of a

(43:14):
car of the car, and thenhe went into the living room where Leslie
fell asleep on the couch. Um. So he went through the living room
where a hose pipe connected to thebottle, and he placed the hose pipe
next to her face and like pulledthe covers over her head right, and
then he went in the garage,connected the hose pipe to the car exhaust
turned ignition on the car, sothat he went back and then then he

(43:37):
then watched to the partially open doorof the living room to make sure that
the hose pipe didn't fall and asthe exhaust So he just watched this as
the exhaust fumes were blown on herface, Like Leslie started to stir,
so Colin thought, ship, she'sgoing to wake up, So you like
just took a deep breath, raninto the room and like pulled the covers

(43:57):
up over and held the covers overher face with the hose pipe still underneath.
And as as he did, shecalled out for her eldest son,
Matthew, who was only six atthe time. And that was our last
words. She was calling out forMatthew. And I'm thinking, because I
can't think why Matthew, but Ithink maybe because he was the oldest,

(44:19):
she was like, maybe he couldcome and help her. Yeah, I
thought that is that's awful. Itwas awful, and that just makes it
even more like as well, whywas there not photos of the kids that
you know, you can see howdevoted the kids are there anyway, I've
just jumped head here. So thenm so, yeah, Colin held the
covers over, let's let until shewas lifeless, and then he puts them.

(44:39):
He got her dressed because she shouldfell sup. I think she was
actually sleeping on the couch. Ithink they were obviously having their arguments and
whatnot, so she had the coverswere they I think she was had her
night or dam So he got hedressed and then he carried her out to
the garage and put her in theboot of the car. He took the
hose pipe in the bottle off andthrew them in the car as well.

(45:00):
He put a white sheet over herbody and then just threw a bike on
top of her. So he thenmade a last minute decision to put her
headphones on her as she did liketo fall asleep listening to muse it.
So it would be believable that shewould have the headphones on while she was
taking her own life. And theyalso he put the photographs in as well.
But as I said that, youwould have thought obviously there was even

(45:20):
a poe him. I thought,yeah, yeah, So by now it
was about one a m. Socalling the phone to Hazel, let ring
once wait for her phone back.She phoned him right back and he said
he had finished with Leslie and hewas on his way to her house,
and you know, to check thatshe had given Trevor um. So she
opened, she opened the garage door, moved the car so it was ready

(45:45):
just for him to drive for callingdrive in with his car he opened.
So drove and he opened the bookto get the hose in the bottle and
gesture to lest gesture to the sheetand went there's Leslie. I asked he
if Trevor was definitely asleep, andshe said he was. So Colin attached
the bottle in the hose of theexhaust, led it to the kitchen along

(46:07):
at the bedroom, he put thehose next Trevor's head and then went back
to the car to turn the ignissitionon. So as again like, I
don't from my research, I didn'tsee it, but on the secret I
think the children were in the house, so it could because you saw and
he's all getting a towel and puttingout up against her kid's doors. So
obviously the fumes when they go throughthere. So I was like, was

(46:29):
that right or not? So I'mnot too sure, but I thought surely
if they were going to do that, they really had the kids out of
the house, maybe I'd be like, why are the kids away? Yeah,
we have no choice, just toget them. So, like Leslie,
Trevor start to stir, so Colinhad to go back into the bedroom

(46:49):
and like get on top of Trevorso like hold them down, and there
was a bitter struggle, but eventuallythe fumes were obviously too much and Trevor
died. So once Trevor was dead. Colin dragged his body to the garage
and put him in the boot besideLeslie, and then put the sheet and
bike on top of them. Hetold Hazel to get rid of the bottle
and the hosepipe by burning them,and told her tied up the bed or
and everyone like that. So Colinthen drove to Leslie's dad's house, reversed

(47:15):
into the garage. He wore surgicalgloves, and he pulled Trevor's body out
of the boot and put him inthe driver's seat to make it look like
he was the one who would turnedignition on. Now. I mean,
I'll get on it this later,but I think the reason why his foot
was hanging out was because he neverput the chair back. He said the
chair was reclined, but it wasn'tlike pulled back like, so his legs
would have been too long anyway,So he was he was putting the driver's

(47:39):
seat to make it look like he'sturned the ignition. And then he went
back to the boot, arranged thephotos around Leslie and put her headphones on,
which we're playing her favorite gospel music, which I kind of thought,
well, that was just a bitstupid. Anyway, because I'm walkman's that
the once it gets to the endof the table would stopped. Yeah,
so you know you can understand ifthe police we're going to find her in

(48:00):
time, Oh she's you know,she's just fell asleep. Last year gospel
music, but by the time theyfound out we'd be playing anymore, or
the batteries when they run it.Um. So this time Colin attached a
vacuum host to the exhaust and putit in the boot and then closed the
boot door to keep it in place. Then he turned the car on.

(48:20):
He put the white sheet in thegloves in a black bin bag and used
the bike that he had brought tocycle home. Once home, he burned
evidence and then he phoned has Allto tell her that dies all done.
Everyone went smoothly. So that's that'sbasically what happened. So of course Colin
was arrested and charged with two kindsof murder in December two thousand and nine.

(48:43):
He was sentenced to life imprisonmount witha minimum term of twenty one years.
He also played guilty to molest inpatience over ten years, and he
was stripped of his n NHS pensionof five hundred ninety thousand, which she
would have received when he retired,and he had another five and a half
years added onto a sentence. WhenHazel was arrested, she said, quote,

(49:06):
he controlled me, he decided,and he planned this. I want
to say sorry to Trevor's family.My guilt was horrendous, my shame.
I hated him. He was capableof doing everything. I was scared for
my children. I don't know ifif it was love or fear. He
had control over me. It waslike I was his little robot end coote.
I just think she's just trying toget it. So Hazel was sentenced

(49:28):
to life in prison with a minimumterm of eighteen years for her role in
the murders. So the police werecriticized for overlooking some seemingly obvious clues and
just assumed that Hazel and Drever tookand I'll put Hazel and Drevor. Leslie
and Trevor took their own lives.So these included the fact that Colin told

(49:50):
them to look at Leslie's dad's garage. But yeah, yeah, he was
never asked why he thought they wouldbe there. I mean, he'd skinny
said maybe she's at his house becauseshe's screaming. But but never the second
the garage. Why why are yousaying check the garage? So that's a
bit suspicious. Um. Two ofthe three photos beside Leslie were actually facing

(50:10):
away from her, so surely shewould be looking at them while she was
falling asleep. And of course therewas no four as there were kids that
yeah. Yeah, so I thinkhe's just kind of like chucked the foes
down and just not bothered how theywere placed. Trevor was much taller than
Colin, so the driver's seat ofthe car would have been too far forward
for Trevor to fitting. As Isaid, Um, Leslie's trainers weren't on

(50:34):
properly. Apparently Colin couldn't get themon, that's why. But the officer
didn't think it was changed. Thatwere her feet were only half in her
shoes. Yeah, I mean likeif she came there voluntarily, she would
have put her she was munches,Yeah, because I mean, according to
them, they think it's a suicide. Pat So she probably would have been
sitting in front of the car withTrevor driving, she would have her shoes

(50:55):
on properly. Um. Experts saythat if this was a joint suicide pack,
then Leslie would uh, Leslie wouldmost likely I've been in the passenger
seat, so why and they wouldbe sitting side by side, so why
not a question why she was inthe boat? Yeah? Yeah, like
why was she in the boot?And he was like, Trevor would have

(51:15):
killed her and and killed himself becauseif it was a side pack, You're
right, that would be done atthe same time. Yeah, they would
be in the front together. Hewould have thought. He would have thought,
I mean, it's not I meanit's not. It doesn't mean that
that would happen every time, butI mean be more likely than her being
in the boot. Yeah, itseems a bit strange. It should be
in the book, but that wasn'tquestioned. Trevor actually had injuries, so

(51:37):
they were post smart and photos thatshowed injuries to his mouth and nose and
what appeared to be blood coming fromthe back of his head. Colin told
the police that they'd had a minorroute earlier that day, so that's where
the injuries must have came from,and they just accepted that version of events,
and Colin he had a gash tohis forehead from struggle with Trevor.
But he told the police that hehad bumped his head head and again they

(52:00):
accepted that. I don't know why, I never said that came from and
struggle whichever that he had said.But now you just said the band does
see the fact that they've had abit of an altercation earlier in the day,
but didn't not raise alarm bells.Would think I would think so.
So even though the police had beentold that Colin had been given Leslie pills

(52:20):
and they were told about the electriccable incident, they didn't investigate further,
like they knew about those things.So and police knew that Colin had financial
issues but didn't think anything was suspiciouswhen he claimed Leslie's life insurance policy,
okay, And I actually did lookat the actus. I was like,
can you claim life insurance or suicide? But you actually can in some cases

(52:42):
you can, and he obviously could, so he claimed something like four hundred
thousand or something. And lastly,the suicide note, Colin saved us note
from a previous suicide attempt because ifyou think about it, right, So
I couldn't find much about it,but it seems like with the way it
was worded about not knowing her shewas if she would wake up that she

(53:04):
had written that note, and she'dwoken up the following day, so when
she had planned on doing it,she had actually woken up the next game
day. But Collins obviously has seenthe note and he's kept it and he's
thought, oh, that'll come inhandy and but to me, it's like,
but the note wouldn't have made sensefor her to the place because like

(53:28):
she'd said, if I wake upin the morning, just let us be
her secret. But she she wasn'tat home. She was in a car,
so that would have made sense.Um, so that doesn't add up
with her being at home like ifbecause as I said, like I think
the way it has been, shehas been like, you know what,
I'm just going to you know,do what, you know, take kills
or whatever. She did, fallasleep if I wake up, right,

(53:51):
okay, it was just our secret. I don't wake up. Well there's
a suicide note. But yeah,she wasn't home, but she wasn't the
worden's totally off, doesn't what's actuallybut yeah, the police didn't question it,
and so Colin's wife, Kyle,she didn't face any charges. She
filed for divorce and she went backto live in Florida. Out of Colin's

(54:13):
remaining children, only one of themis stayed in contact with him because she
thinks that he's genuinely remorseful for whathe did. M Okay, if that's
what she wants to think, thenthat's ye. Can whatever whatever kind of
works for you. I think sheneeded that to make peace with exactly.
But he has those two children andher husband and stood by her and believed

(54:37):
that Colin coerced her into her part. So they're like totally fine with her,
which again everybody's entitled it. Butshe killed your dad, Yeah,
I mean it must be quite difficult. But then the obviously generally believe.
But maybe she didn't and she justobviously she did help. I mean she
didn't actually do it, but shedid she did help. Yeah, she

(55:00):
give them something tablets. Yes,well that's true. She like calling in
and she part and she was anaccomplice to it, whether that's what I
say. You know, even ifshe didn't physically do the act, you're
still a part of it. Yeah, of course, she was totally trully
a part of it. And thefact that you know, she she had
she had time to stop it.She had plenty time to stop it.

(55:20):
She could have said something, shecould have went to the place she could.
Even after it happened, she's stillcould have you know, she still
could have owned up to it.But and I just think, sorry,
you know, I know we're notsupposed to judge people, but when it
comes to murderers, I don't reallycare. I think that she did it,
she felt guilty about it. Yeah, she probably did, but she
needs to take her punishment for it, and she has. She's in jail.

(55:43):
She's in prison. So see song. Yeah, I mean what was
justice was done eventually? Yeah,after it was like nineteen years or something
like that, it was. Andthe other thing is, I mean,
I know, it's good that ithappened, so we got justice for them,
but they could have got away withThat was only because Colin confessed.
Yeah, because it was ruled asa suicide, so he hadn't have confessed.

(56:06):
So that just shows you, likehow much guilt can get to you.
Well, I think because he thinkshe was getting punished because his son
died. Cond doubt all that money, so that was his punishment for killing
his wife and Trevor shows you can. You might think you can get away
with it, and maybe you can, but it can be your own self

(56:30):
that they can actually like get youfound out in the end because you just
kind of love with it. Well, I definitely wasn't a devout Christian anyway,
Oh I did. It was cheatand murder exactly and why and why?
You know, you'll have to askthe questions why. I mean,
I know, obviously like they hada you know, the offoste affairs and
they shouldn't have because of the churchand et cetera, et cetera. But
again, as we always say,murders not the answer. Definitely not.

(56:52):
You know, deal with your feelingsand stop coming affair. I'll leave the
church, yeah, but then gonnabe together exactly that and better, Like
you know, you had to moveaway out of the time jolling another church.
Yeah, don't tell them there's otherchurches out there that aren't as well,
Like they would chuck you out forit, yeah, I know.
I mean it's just, I mean, when you're not religious, it's hard

(57:14):
to understand other people when people arethat religious. And you know, I
don't disrespect to anybody's religion and stuff, but if I'm just I'm not I'm
talking about them, those two inparticular. If that's not allowed in the
church, then neither's murder. SoI thought none of it was right.
So why not do the better thingand not killing anybody and just get divorced

(57:37):
and move away. Surely that's farbetter. Yeah, I'm killing anybody,
but alviously murderers are stupid. Wellwe always see that. So thank you
to everybody for listening. I willsee you next time. Bye. If
you would like to get in contactwith us or follow us on our social
media, we are on Instagram andTwitter at Prime and score Diverse and score

(57:59):
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(58:19):
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