July 22, 2025 • 32 mins
This episode is about the murder of 7 year old Amanda Brown.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm WAA and am tel and this it is
Cracked Divers. Everybody, welcome to you today's episode.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hello, what's it called? So?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Our episode is called that was a bit set?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I don't know. I hope you know because it's your episode.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
An episode is called the Killer Crabber, Killer Crabber.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
That's a baby random.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
You don't know what crabber is.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
It's not a grabber?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
No, what an amusement?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Exact?
Speaker 1 (00:46):
No, it's a fisherman and fishes for crabs.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
No, get that? Okay, I get you there, No, I
get you. I don't know. I don't know everything or
not nothing.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
That's more like it?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Right? And well are we in the world? Are wh
in the sea? What was happening?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
We're in Tampa.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
There. I flew there before. Look flew to Tampa because
the flights must have been a bit cheaper.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
We've been to Tampa as well. We've been at that's
where Bush Gardens is. So I've been there too. Yes,
so we're actually we're somewhere we've both been.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
That's unusual, I know. So are we going to dive in?
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yeah, we're ready to dive in. Let's go on the
eleventh of September nineteen ninety eight, Catherine Hartman woke up
just after six am. Her daughter, Amanda, who was seven,
usually slept beside her, and she'd been there when they
went to sleep, but she wasn't there now, so Katherine
assumed that Amanda had got up early, so she got
(01:47):
up and shouted for her, but there was no answer.
She starts the whole house and Amanda was nowhere to be.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Seen, So.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
About half an hour later, because obviously she'd been searching
everywhere for her, she called nine one one to report
Amanda missing, and officers and dogs were dispatched immediately to
search for her. So Catherine and Amanda's dad, Roy Brown.
They had split up three years earlier, so Roy and
Catherine were both questioned straight away. Roy said that the
(02:18):
night before he'd been at home watching TV ways with
his new wife i am Under the custody agreement, Amanda
stayed at Roy's house one night a week, and they
were looking forward to a trip that they were planning
for the following weekend. He was asked about Catherine, and
he said that she used drugs. He said that she
was addicted to prescription painkillers and he was concerned about it,
(02:41):
but it was adamant that she would never hurt their daughter. OK,
So they were both ruled out. The parents were both
ruled out. So Catherine was asked about the previous night,
and she said that she had last seen Amanda when
they both went to sleep On her bed. She told
(03:02):
officers about her new boyfriend, Willie Crane. He was a
crab fisher with and they had met at a local bar.
Catherine had called him that morning before the police arrived,
but he said that he had no idea where Amanda
could be because I was just about to tell you
that he was there the night before and as well, that's
(03:22):
why she was asking. So Catherine had made dinner for
Willy the night before and introduced him to Amanda.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Also, they only just met her.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
They don't just met both of them well, that night, No,
a couple of nights before. Yes, it was very new
she'd met. Catherine had met Willie in a bar a
couple of nights before, so so yeah, so she'd made
dinner for introduce something to Amanda. She said that Amanda
took a liking terms straight away. He helped her with
(03:54):
her homework and they played Tic Tac toe or I
don't know what that was, so I gullet and that's
what we call notes and crosses. I heard a tic
tac toe LODs of times, but I actually thought it
was like hopscotch.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
No, I actually knew that.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah, it's not some crosses. I don't know why I
thought it was hopscotch.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
I don't know either, but.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Because it's got toes in it, right, Okay, that's everything, great.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I don't wait base it off.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
So then they played that Willie and Amanda like drew
around each other's hands on paper, and Catherine later noticed
it on one of the drawings. Amanda had written, Amanda
likes willing so she really she really took.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
So.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Willie then invited Catherine and Amanda back to his house
to watch a movie. So Amanda was excited about it,
so Catherine said, yeah, okay, why not? So they've not
long been there when the phone rang and Willie answered
it and it was his grown up daughter. Catherine was
surprised when he said, to say hi to my daughter,
and he passed the phone to say hello, but ka,
(05:01):
Kavin barely knew his daughter. I kind of read in
a couple of places, but I think it was hard
that actually introduced them. I'm not quite sure if she
was maybe working in the bar or but I think
she did introduce something that Kavin didn't really know work. Yeah, okay,
So she was surprised when she was like, why are
you landing to me the phone?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Because that's a bit strange.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
I mean if I just sort of had met somebody,
then I would not do that. I wouldn't like let
them talk on the phone like that after a couple
of days.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, it's a bit strange.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah, I think that's a bit strange.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
I mean maybe other people think that's normal, but yeah,
I personally wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
No.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
But so, so Katherin took the phone, she said hi,
and they started chatting. So Kavin wasn't sure how long
she was on the phone for. She said maybe about
twenty minutes.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Really, like somebody that you didn't really knowingnutes, obviously I
would find it.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I would find it quite awkward.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Like everybody's awkward, like you or me. No, that's true,
because i'd be the same. But you know, some people
are naturally chatty, aren't they. So that's true, and they're
maybe talking about her because they've got her dad, Willie
in common. That's her dad, that's her new man, so
they're just probably chatting about him and stuff. So when
she hung up, she realized that Amanda and Willie weren't
(06:13):
in the living room anymore, so she went looking for them,
and she heard Amanda's voice behind a closed door, so
she went in and it was Willie's bedroom, So she said,
what are you doing? And he said he was showing
Amanda how to use the TV remote. So Catherine said
that she felt slightly uncomfortable and suggested that it was
time to go home, as it was past Amanda's bedtime
(06:35):
and Catherine had a sore back. I thought that was
a bit strange because I thought, well, if it was up,
you wouldn't known that it was past her bedtime way
before you went there, Like he was she good? Amanda?
She was silling?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Was she totally forgot?
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah? She was silling?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yes, I mean like really she should have been.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
She would know when her bedtime and I don't know, Okay,
where away? So Willie actually Katherine had a sore back,
so Willie offered her some of his value and then
she took it. So she drove back home and Willie
followed him in his car, which I'm not sure why either.
(07:17):
I don't know if he was just making sure, like
being a gentleman, making sure they got back all right,
but obviously watched his car right he would need it,
you know, I didn't want to.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Get her out without car. So he was actually going
back to stay her house.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
And well, I don't think that was the plank, And
so they went inside and had a drink. Amanda she
went for a shower and Katherine told her to go
to bed afterwards, but Willy wouldn't let her go to
bed wear hair wet because he was like, no, that's
(07:51):
you catch the cold. And like Katherine was like, well,
you know, we always got here go to bed wear
hair wet, and he's like, no, no, no, I never
let my daughters do that, you know, And the Catherine
was kind of like, well, you know, if you can
get her to sit still for long enough, you can dry.
I don't think she kind of really thought anything.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
I mean to be honest, and I would be like, well,
this is my daughter, like you don't really get yeah,
but I mean if he was thinking that it was
being nice or whatever, then yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
I think the way that he came across it, as
I said, it was just like, well, oh no, you
don't know what catch catch the cold, you know.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Someone's drying a kid's hair is not And Amanda was
happy for him to do it, so so he dried
her hair, which I don't like wet hair when you
got bed either.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
So my daughters like when I wash her hair.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
I mean I don't try it fully, but I certainly
try it a little bit, so it's not soaking wet like.
So it's just they'll be a bit of damp, but
not not like totally soaking wet.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Well, whenever I wash my hair, I just wash it
and plenty time before I go to bed, so they'll
just naturally dry.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
And I normally wash mine in the morning unless I'm
working in the next game day.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
At six o'clock, then I would normally wash it in
the morning, so I would just try it then.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Anyway, I dry mynning anyway. Yeah, I just said I
dry mine at night. I wash mine at night.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
That's what I meant to say. I don't think anyone
really cares about how you wash.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
So Catherine was so soon starting to feel the effect
of the value, and she noticed that Willie seemed a
bit drunk, so she told him to stay awhile and
sober up before going home. So that's so that's what
I said. That wasn't the plan for him.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
To stay over, right, Just so it just seems a
bit I don't know, like you were obviously at his
house and then she'd go home, so they also didn't
want to end night, then, I'm guessing, and that's why
he came over.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
To her house.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
I just I just found it a bit weird. It
would probably been a bit judgmental year, but they were
already at her house, So why did they go to
his house and then go back and then go back?
Like to me, that just didn't make sense. And I
get that. He said I will go and watch a movie,
and I get it. This is back in nineteen ninety eight, right,
so back then it may be like a videotape, yeah,
(09:52):
a TVD or video whatever it was back then. So
I get that. But then if it was that late
at night before her bedtime, why not just say no,
do you know, do it another night?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Or he could have went and got the movie and
brought Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
It does And as I said, I don't know why
he's came.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Back with what I said. Maybe it's just not ready
to end the night.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
I suppose.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah, maybe I feel like we're kind of judging, but
never meant, well, it's just and understanding. I think, as
you said, I just try to understand it, try to understand.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Why you would do that because you went, you started
her house, went to his house back And I said,
it probably is because back then, you know, you would
have had a movie.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Collection at your house. It wasn't like on demand like
it is now.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yeah, you can't just want it anyway, So that's.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Probably maybe why. But then you're right, like that was
you know, why do they then go back back then?
Or why does she agree to go if she would know?
And it was going to be quite late for her
daughter's bedtime as well.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
But it's funny though, because it is said as you
just said about her the daughter's bedtime, about Amanda's bedtime,
But it was actually after two am by the time
Amanda went to sleep.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Okay, so which she should have been on the long
gone in her bed.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
So what was.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Actually her bedtime and did for her to go to
sleep at that time? Surely that she had a normal
bedtime surely she would have fell asleep well before then.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
A seven year old, you know, you'd think we'd be
in bed by nine ten latest. Surely made nine ish.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
But yeah, this was you know, this is just the fact. Yes,
So it was after two by the time Amanda went
to sleep in Catherine's bed, and Catherine and Willie lay
down on either side of her. So Willie was still
full dressed, fully dressed, and he still had.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
His shoes on. Oh see, I don't like that.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
So I'm assuming that Catherine wasn't expecting him to stay
over and he was just lying in and.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Oh but I like personally, I mean, I know, everybody's different,
but personally, if I had just met a man two
years before, I certainly wouldn't be letting him lying in
the bed in my seven year old door, whether regardless
of what the situation is.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I just don't think that's appropriate.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Judgeing well, but that's what person and I.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Wouldn't do it.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
But she did. And everybody's different, as you said, like
you know, personally, and if the well, a lot of
people do that. A lot of people have their daughters
in their bed with them, their kids in their bed
with them. I know, that's not something that you do,
but it's mean.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
People do do. I just don't wonder if it was
only a one bedroom like playing.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
No, I think she's got her own bed. But I
think they just because it was just the two of them.
I think they're quite often.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
I just don't personally wouldn't have him lying in the
bedroom my seven year old daughter.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
When I've just met him a few days ago.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
I think she was obviously because he was fully dressed
and everyone like that, she obviously didn't think much.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
She mustn't let them actually do it, I suppose, And.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
We're looking at from a different perspective. She's the way
that he's acting, he's her child, is comfortable well, and
he's he's obviously coming across as a nice sky. And
as I said, because he's fully dresses, still got his
shoes on, she's not going to be thinking anything bad
about that, which I get totally understand that because as
I said, we're looking at from different eyes is what
(13:11):
she used.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Like, let's say, it's just my personal opinion, I wouldn't.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
I wouldn't personally do that, but I know that other
people obviously would.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
I just don't think that that's appropriate.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
So now you used to talk too much and I've
lost my place. Yeah, So they ended up falling asleep.
So when Catherine woke up, both Amanda and Willie were gone.
But I think I think that she actually assumed that
Willie had left during the night. I don't think she
realized that Willie had fell fell asleep because as I said,
(13:47):
he was landing was really cool, dank, he was just
lying in for five minutes. I don't know. I don't
know the situation because we.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Don't know the full situation.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
I would have thought, and she wasn't expecting mistal where
she would have saw him out so she could lock
the door as well.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
That's why I say, if he wasn't in ten on staying,
you think that at some point they'd be like, right, okay,
I'm going now, like i'll see later.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
You know, obviously for sat reason injured want you don't
locked fire to bed.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
So yeah, I don't know, but.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
You know, we're not there. We don't know the circumstances exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
So So back to the search for Amanda. So, after
ruling the parents out, police did a background check on Willie.
He actually had an extensive criminal history, which included arrest
and convictions for sexual battery on children, so naturally he
became a person of interest. Willie had been sentenced to
twenty years in the nineteen eighties for five counts of
(14:35):
sexual battery on a minor and had been released after
seven only six years. So an officer was sent to
Willie's house. He knocked and there was no answer. He
saw a neighbor in his garden, so he asked if
he had seen Willy that day. The neighbor said that
he'd seen Willy leave his house early that morning, which
he said was unusual because usually Willie stayed up late
(14:56):
and he would sleep till late morning and then he
would go crab fishing in the earlier and he also
suggested that Willie may have been in a hurry because
he knocked over a post at the end of his driveway.
So it just seemed a wee bit weirdah normal routine,
min Yeah, So they set about finding Willy. So Catherine
told police that he had told her that he was
going crabfish in that day, but she didn't know where.
(15:19):
So Tampa Bay alone is three hundred square miles, so
it was going to be a hard job. Officers went
to the crab shack where Willie worked, but he wasn't there,
so they spoke to some crabbers who knew Willy and
where he usually went crabbing. They are good to help
detectives look for a Willy, and they took them to
the boat ramp that he regularly used. When they got there,
(15:39):
one of them pointed out a white fod truck with
an empty trailer on it and told detectives that belonged
to Willy. So, yeah, you must be out in the water.
So the person that had their crab boat there, sorry,
that person that has told them that they had their
crab boat there, So they offered to take them out
and look for Willy. So after about half an hour
(16:01):
they located one of Willy's crab boys in the war.
They found fresh bait in his crab traps, so they
knew he was out there somewhere. So eventually they found
him out on the water and they had actually hoped
to find Amanda there with um on the boat, but
he was alone. So detectives explained who they were and
asked him to come to the police station for questioning,
(16:23):
and he agained. One of the detectives asked if he
could ride back in his boat, and he said yes,
So on the way back, the detective noticed Willy's shoes.
He was wearing loafers, which he thought was an odd
choice to be wearing Walsh fishing, and he was dressed
like sort of just a normal clothes k not like
fishing he would normally be dressed, and so it just
(16:43):
was a bit of a odd choice. And he also
noticed that Willie's arms had scratches on them. So they
got back to the sheriff's Sheriff's office, and while Willie
continued to cooperate, he answered questions for several hours about
the night before that he'd spent with Catherine and Amanda.
His version of events was different to Catherine. So, according
to him, a man of Amanda had gone to sleep
(17:05):
in her room bed, So yes, she did her bed. Yes,
I had a niggler and really that I knew the
gender room bed. He said that he did lie down
in Catherine's bed, but only with her. Katherine was in
the bed, and sometime later Amanda came through and got
into the bed in between them, and that's when he left.
And also because he had to get up early for work,
so that was his version is a version, I think,
(17:28):
he said his version of events. So then he told
the police some things that just didn't seem to make sense.
He said that he got home about one thirty am,
which is different to what Catherine said because she had
said that they went to bed at two am. He
then said, without being prompted or question, he said that
when he was at home, we had spilled some bleach.
So it's about weird to sort.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Of say that. Why would you say that?
Speaker 1 (17:50):
And he said he doesn't like the smell of bleach,
so he cleaned up, and then he decided to clean
his whole the whole trailer. Loved her trailer, so he
decided to clean the whole trailer. And it's such suspicious, yeah,
And it was just weird to be telling the police
that without being asked. He just voluntarily came up with
this information. And he was asked about the scratches on
(18:12):
his arms, and he didn't answer. He just stared at
the officer and the officer said, I asked you a question,
like how did you get those scratches? And will he
he's told me or just changed. He was like, Oh,
you're trying to pin this on me. You're trying to
make things up. The police officer said, no, I'm just
asking you how you got those scratches. And will he said,
I don't want to talk about this anymore. So he'd
(18:32):
been cooperative up until that point. So he did hand
over his clothes to police for analysis, and the officer
noticed that there were stains on the front of his
boxer shorts. Stains looked like blood.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
I thought you were going to go that way there, No,
not right now. I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
I think I might go that way. I'm not actually sure.
I can't remember because you know, Jill has a bad memory.
And I wrote wrote with a couple of yes, it's
like a new story.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Let me tell him.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yeah, it's like I'm reading a bit all over again.
So he was given a tiny clothes and let go.
So they didn't want to let him go, but they
had They had nothing to hold him on, so but
they got The police got a search warrant for Willie's
home ten hours after Catherine had reported a madam miss him.
As soon as officers entered his trailer, they got a
(19:26):
strong smell of bleach coming from the bathroom. It was
obviously that the room had been scrubbed clean. One officer
lifted the toilet seat and saw what appeared to be blood,
so the whole toilet seat was dismantled and seized. There
was also tissue down the toilet that looked like it
tried to be flushed, but it stuck to like the
side of the toilet bowl, and that looked like hard
(19:48):
blood on it as well. But it was weird because
it looked clear that Willie had scrubbed the bathroom. He
hadn't actually touched the sink, so he had cleaned like
the bath, the shower stall, the floor, the and the toilet.
So if you're going to scub your bathroom, of course
you're going.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
To scub the think that was just stupid. The stink,
the stink sink.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
The sink had hairs in it, and it just looked
pretty like dirty and grimy, so obviously hadn't have been
cleaned for a while. So prosecutor straight away thought, right,
the bathroom, this this is a crime scene. So everything
was sent for analysis straight away. Later that day, they
took blood and saliva samples from Willie in accordance with
a court order, so until the results came back, they
(20:31):
kept Willie under surveillance and they were like questioning anyone
who they thought could help with their inquiries. So police
interviewed local fishermen who worked in the same area as Willie,
and there was one guy called Al He had seen
Willy on the morning that Amanda disappeared. I said that
him and a friend were sitting They must have got
there a bit earlier, so they were just sitting waiting
(20:52):
on daylight so that they could start working, and they
saw Willie. So Willie's boat was hooked on the back
of his truck, so like you know, you've got the
boat ramps and you're obviously back here in the water,
but he backed it all the way into the water
like past like so like it was basically so the
(21:14):
middle ast tires where that's what it was.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Basically it was in the water.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Truck was in the water, and you just don't do
that because the salt water basically rust like.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, under the truck burst as far as that.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah, and just you know, for somebody who goes fishing
every day, that was really weird that you would do that.
So obviously, the search is still still on for Amanda.
Police was searching hundreds of square miles concentrating on the
areas where will You lived and fished. They were out
on land, air, and the sea. They used a number
of different types of technology like thermal imagen and sonar.
(21:52):
Airboats were used to get to the shallower waters. But
a storm actually came up really quickly one day and
as one of the airboat operators tried to race back
to shore before the storm hit, the storm did. The
storm actually hit and capsized the air boat. So luckily
the crew were rescued, but the boat was lost.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
That was just gone.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
So after all these efforts, Amanda still hadn't been found.
I told you that for a reason.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
We'll come back to that.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
You're looking a bit confused as why I'm telling you
about an airboat.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yes, there's a reason. There's reason. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
So the.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Media attention on Willie continued. He was constantly on the
news and in the papers, and as a result, two
women came forward a legend that Willie had sexually abused
them when they were children. A detective went to interview
them and decided there was enough probable cause in their
story to file charges against Willy. So they filed charges
for these cases, which were from about twenty five twenty
(22:50):
six years ago. These women had lived near him at
the time when they were children. So in Florida, rape
form a child under the age of twelve has no
statute of limitations.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Because years ago.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
But we've heard that, yeah for that for rapier children twelve,
there's no limitations.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
So you can go back as fast.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
So Willy was arrest in charge. So now they had
their main suspect in Amanda's disappearance and custody. The prosecution
had waited three weeks to get test results that the
hope would link Willy to the case. They did look
elsewhere at other suspects, but all other leaves just came
out a dead head.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
They just kept coming back to he was just like
the one.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Yes, So the lab results came back and they found
Amanda's DNA pattern on Willie's underwear, so yeah, we did
go the other way and on his toilet seat. So
that along with the circumstantial evidence that like the way
he had acted at the boat ramp, the way he
was dressed when he was fishing, he had been the
last person to see her, the way he cleaned the bathroom,
(23:55):
all of that convinced police that beyond reasonable doubt, that
he had abducted and kill Amanda. So Willie was charged
with murder and kidnapp him. So the prosecution was convinced
that Amanda died at the hands of Willy Crane, but
without physical evidence, they would have to convince judy how
she died on why her body was missing. So a
(24:19):
year after Amanda's disappearance, Willie stood trial for her murder.
Amanda's body had never been found, and authority is believed
that Amanda had disposed of her in the water at
Tampa Bay.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I mean Willy had disposed What did I just said?
You said Amanda had disposed of her.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Amanda's body had been found, and I thoughities believed that
Willie had disposed of her in the water at Tampa Bay.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Said Amanda herself? Did she?
Speaker 1 (24:43):
So the state believed that Willie selected his victim carefully.
He prayed on women that he knew to be vulnerable
in order to get at his real target, which was
the daughter. So this hen the moment that he'd actually
went after her purpose.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
So a witness in the trial said that he'd had
two conversations with Willie in the past where Willie said
that he if he want to get rid of a body.
He could hide it where no one could find it.
So that statement proved crucial. The state had shown that
Willie not only had the knowledge, but the opportunity to
dispose of his victim's body in the murky waters of
(25:21):
Tampa Bay. They had to they had to explain to jury,
to the jury why Amanda's body had never been recovered.
So they used the incident of the air boat to
the state's advantage. The waters of Tampa Bay were so
bad that you can that you can find a two
thousand pounds steel.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Airboat, Oh god, right, yeah, right, yeah, yeah, find a
body exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
So that showed howat how easy it could be for
an experienced crab fisherman to dispose of a seven year
old's body without leaving a trace of evidence. So that's
why I told you about that the airport. But yeah,
the airboat, that's a lot bigger and a lot. Yeah,
it's a two thousand pounds steel air bow and that
just disappeared.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
And even they didn't find it.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
So how easy would it be disposed of a body?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Oh yeah, totally. It's like a total needle in a haystack.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Sort. So the defense put Willie on the stand, He
said that he had never made it past grade school
and he had been a fisherman all his life. He
had an answer for everything. When asked why he was
in the bedroom with the door shut with Amanda when
her mum was on the phone, he said that he
often kept his door shut to keep the cold air
(26:28):
from his air conditioner escape him. So I told Himada
shut the door because he didn't want the cold air
getting out, Because I was whereas were like shut the
door to keep the heat. Oh, yeah, they want they
want the cold air kept. So that was his excuse
for that. And he also said that Amanda had a
loose tooth and it started to bleed, so that's why
her blood was in the bathroom and why it was
(26:50):
on the big tissue.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
I was going to say, I can I can relate
to that because just lost her.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yeah, so I mean that could have happened along with
what the.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Other stuff as well. But I don't.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
I mean I'm assuming that well Katherine would know she'd
have lose truth or so, I don't know. She said
that was said to Yeah, I don't know. But he
said that the scratches on his arms were from bushes.
He said that people steal crab traps and throw them
in the bushes, so he got scratched trying to get
his crab traps out of the bushes. Yeah, exactly, Well.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Why do you not see that the first place?
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah, exactly, Like that's when he shut down when.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
He's been questioned that was the case. She would think
he'd freely just say, oh, that's how it happened.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
But obviously some time to think about it.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
That's excuse.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Yeah. So the jury obviously didn't believe him though, because
they found Willy guilty of first degree murder in November
nineteen eighty nine. Willie was sentenced to death. His victim
said came forward were allowed to testify at the penalty
phase of his trial. Because he had been convicted of
murder and given the most severe possible sentence, he was
(27:58):
never prosecuted with the old rapes because he's not anybody
sence to death.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
We'll see that makes.
Speaker 4 (28:04):
Sense, because sometimes they do like find them guilty on
all these different counts and give them all these like
random sentences and.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Stuff like that. And I don't get wrong, I mean,
I know you want justice for those other people as well,
but it's ridiculous. You couldn't give them any word in that.
You just wonder why that's not the case at all.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
These Yeah, I have no idea about legal stuff.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
We have no idea. I have no clue.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
So I read an article from twenty ten, because because
he was sentenced to death obviously nineteen out of nine,
I want to say, if we'd actually been put to death.
But all I could find was there was an article
from twenty ten which said that Willie was still on
death row, but it was suffering from call on cancer
(28:49):
and may not live long enough to be executed. So
then I googled is Willy Crane's still alive? And I
found a couple of articles that do indicate that he's
still alive and on death row.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
So okay, if he was, so.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I don't know. I mean, like if he was diagnosed
with quong cancer and said he didn't have long to live,
that was in twenty I was eleven years ago.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
I mean, I know you're not going to answer this question,
but just I just want to.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
I just I just I don't understand, like the death
apparently decided, Like why do people get sentenced to death
and then say ten twenty years later, they've still not
been executed, Like I don't understand that.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Maybe they just wanted them to suffer.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Well, I don't know, but just I just never I mean,
I don't know if there is an answer or not
why that happens.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
But then, yeah, I know you ask me, is.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
It a google?
Speaker 3 (29:38):
I like to put it out there, but I mean,
I know it's not a question that you're gonna have
an answer for for me, but I just like to
put out there, like why is it that people get
sense to death and then you're talking many many years
later there's still not being sentenced death because I mean,
I know, we're going way back in the olden days.
But no, no, no, I don't mean now. I mean I'm
about to say I'm going back in old days when
people were sentence to death like for hanging, they would
(29:59):
be like I was old before that would be were.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Sentenced to death like by hanging, they.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Would pretty much be executed, you know, within days or
you know, a smaller, very small.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Amount of time. When it's now these people that end
up on death row end up on there for very
many I don't understand it either.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
It's strange.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
But then but I don't know.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
I don't know if I agree with the death kindly anyway,
but because if they were put to death and then
they died really quickly, then that's not really a punishment,
I don't think.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
So.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
If they are on death row over twenty years, then
they're being punished because.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
They've been kept because different to them being another's segregated
from normal prisoners and stuff. But you're still serving a
sentence in prisons.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
So I have no idea me neither, but to put
out there like.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
I just don't understand.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Yeah, we know out there, and I can't answer you
because obviously I don't understand either. So so there we
go done. Did you not expect that to finished.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
That that was the killer craver?
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yea. So they never found that poor little girl's body,
So I think it's probably it's very likely that it
is in Tampa Bay.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Well, yeah, I would say so.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
I wonder how many other bodies could be in there, though,
if that's obviously a place to a good I do
always say a good place, but you know what I mean,
like that's a good place to dispose of experience than
those waters. So I wonder if there's more than if
there is.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Bodies in there, probably sadly.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
But anyway, like that's that's so thank you for listening
to our patron episode.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
And we will be back in a couple of eggs
say that the taken
Speaker 2 (32:10):
The Ton in the BA
Hi, I'm WAA and am tel and this it is
Cracked Divers. Everybody, welcome to you today's episode.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hello, what's it called? So?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Our episode is called that was a bit set?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I don't know. I hope you know because it's your episode.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
An episode is called the Killer Crabber, Killer Crabber.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
That's a baby random.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
You don't know what crabber is.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
It's not a grabber?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
No, what an amusement?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Exact?
Speaker 1 (00:46):
No, it's a fisherman and fishes for crabs.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
No, get that? Okay, I get you there, No, I
get you. I don't know. I don't know everything or
not nothing.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
That's more like it?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Right? And well are we in the world? Are wh
in the sea? What was happening?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
We're in Tampa.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
There. I flew there before. Look flew to Tampa because
the flights must have been a bit cheaper.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
We've been to Tampa as well. We've been at that's
where Bush Gardens is. So I've been there too. Yes,
so we're actually we're somewhere we've both been.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
That's unusual, I know. So are we going to dive in?
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yeah, we're ready to dive in. Let's go on the
eleventh of September nineteen ninety eight, Catherine Hartman woke up
just after six am. Her daughter, Amanda, who was seven,
usually slept beside her, and she'd been there when they
went to sleep, but she wasn't there now, so Katherine
assumed that Amanda had got up early, so she got
(01:47):
up and shouted for her, but there was no answer.
She starts the whole house and Amanda was nowhere to be.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Seen, So.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
About half an hour later, because obviously she'd been searching
everywhere for her, she called nine one one to report
Amanda missing, and officers and dogs were dispatched immediately to
search for her. So Catherine and Amanda's dad, Roy Brown.
They had split up three years earlier, so Roy and
Catherine were both questioned straight away. Roy said that the
(02:18):
night before he'd been at home watching TV ways with
his new wife i am Under the custody agreement, Amanda
stayed at Roy's house one night a week, and they
were looking forward to a trip that they were planning
for the following weekend. He was asked about Catherine, and
he said that she used drugs. He said that she
was addicted to prescription painkillers and he was concerned about it,
(02:41):
but it was adamant that she would never hurt their daughter. OK,
So they were both ruled out. The parents were both
ruled out. So Catherine was asked about the previous night,
and she said that she had last seen Amanda when
they both went to sleep On her bed. She told
(03:02):
officers about her new boyfriend, Willie Crane. He was a
crab fisher with and they had met at a local bar.
Catherine had called him that morning before the police arrived,
but he said that he had no idea where Amanda
could be because I was just about to tell you
that he was there the night before and as well, that's
(03:22):
why she was asking. So Catherine had made dinner for
Willy the night before and introduced him to Amanda.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Also, they only just met her.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
They don't just met both of them well, that night, No,
a couple of nights before. Yes, it was very new
she'd met. Catherine had met Willie in a bar a
couple of nights before, so so yeah, so she'd made
dinner for introduce something to Amanda. She said that Amanda
took a liking terms straight away. He helped her with
(03:54):
her homework and they played Tic Tac toe or I
don't know what that was, so I gullet and that's
what we call notes and crosses. I heard a tic
tac toe LODs of times, but I actually thought it
was like hopscotch.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
No, I actually knew that.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah, it's not some crosses. I don't know why I
thought it was hopscotch.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
I don't know either, but.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Because it's got toes in it, right, Okay, that's everything, great.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I don't wait base it off.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
So then they played that Willie and Amanda like drew
around each other's hands on paper, and Catherine later noticed
it on one of the drawings. Amanda had written, Amanda
likes willing so she really she really took.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
So.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Willie then invited Catherine and Amanda back to his house
to watch a movie. So Amanda was excited about it,
so Catherine said, yeah, okay, why not? So they've not
long been there when the phone rang and Willie answered
it and it was his grown up daughter. Catherine was
surprised when he said, to say hi to my daughter,
and he passed the phone to say hello, but ka,
(05:01):
Kavin barely knew his daughter. I kind of read in
a couple of places, but I think it was hard
that actually introduced them. I'm not quite sure if she
was maybe working in the bar or but I think
she did introduce something that Kavin didn't really know work. Yeah, okay,
So she was surprised when she was like, why are
you landing to me the phone?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Because that's a bit strange.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
I mean if I just sort of had met somebody,
then I would not do that. I wouldn't like let
them talk on the phone like that after a couple
of days.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, it's a bit strange.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah, I think that's a bit strange.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
I mean maybe other people think that's normal, but yeah,
I personally wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
No.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
But so, so Katherin took the phone, she said hi,
and they started chatting. So Kavin wasn't sure how long
she was on the phone for. She said maybe about
twenty minutes.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Really, like somebody that you didn't really knowingnutes, obviously I
would find it.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I would find it quite awkward.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Like everybody's awkward, like you or me. No, that's true,
because i'd be the same. But you know, some people
are naturally chatty, aren't they. So that's true, and they're
maybe talking about her because they've got her dad, Willie
in common. That's her dad, that's her new man, so
they're just probably chatting about him and stuff. So when
she hung up, she realized that Amanda and Willie weren't
(06:13):
in the living room anymore, so she went looking for them,
and she heard Amanda's voice behind a closed door, so
she went in and it was Willie's bedroom, So she said,
what are you doing? And he said he was showing
Amanda how to use the TV remote. So Catherine said
that she felt slightly uncomfortable and suggested that it was
time to go home, as it was past Amanda's bedtime
(06:35):
and Catherine had a sore back. I thought that was
a bit strange because I thought, well, if it was up,
you wouldn't known that it was past her bedtime way
before you went there, Like he was she good? Amanda?
She was silling?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Was she totally forgot?
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah? She was silling?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yes, I mean like really she should have been.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
She would know when her bedtime and I don't know, Okay,
where away? So Willie actually Katherine had a sore back,
so Willie offered her some of his value and then
she took it. So she drove back home and Willie
followed him in his car, which I'm not sure why either.
(07:17):
I don't know if he was just making sure, like
being a gentleman, making sure they got back all right,
but obviously watched his car right he would need it,
you know, I didn't want to.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Get her out without car. So he was actually going
back to stay her house.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
And well, I don't think that was the plank, And
so they went inside and had a drink. Amanda she
went for a shower and Katherine told her to go
to bed afterwards, but Willy wouldn't let her go to
bed wear hair wet because he was like, no, that's
(07:51):
you catch the cold. And like Katherine was like, well,
you know, we always got here go to bed wear
hair wet, and he's like, no, no, no, I never
let my daughters do that, you know, And the Catherine
was kind of like, well, you know, if you can
get her to sit still for long enough, you can dry.
I don't think she kind of really thought anything.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
I mean to be honest, and I would be like, well,
this is my daughter, like you don't really get yeah,
but I mean if he was thinking that it was
being nice or whatever, then yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
I think the way that he came across it, as
I said, it was just like, well, oh no, you
don't know what catch catch the cold, you know.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Someone's drying a kid's hair is not And Amanda was
happy for him to do it, so so he dried
her hair, which I don't like wet hair when you
got bed either.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
So my daughters like when I wash her hair.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
I mean I don't try it fully, but I certainly
try it a little bit, so it's not soaking wet like.
So it's just they'll be a bit of damp, but
not not like totally soaking wet.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Well, whenever I wash my hair, I just wash it
and plenty time before I go to bed, so they'll
just naturally dry.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
And I normally wash mine in the morning unless I'm
working in the next game day.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
At six o'clock, then I would normally wash it in
the morning, so I would just try it then.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Anyway, I dry mynning anyway. Yeah, I just said I
dry mine at night. I wash mine at night.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
That's what I meant to say. I don't think anyone
really cares about how you wash.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
So Catherine was so soon starting to feel the effect
of the value, and she noticed that Willie seemed a
bit drunk, so she told him to stay awhile and
sober up before going home. So that's so that's what
I said. That wasn't the plan for him.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
To stay over, right, Just so it just seems a
bit I don't know, like you were obviously at his
house and then she'd go home, so they also didn't
want to end night, then, I'm guessing, and that's why
he came over.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
To her house.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
I just I just found it a bit weird. It
would probably been a bit judgmental year, but they were
already at her house, So why did they go to
his house and then go back and then go back?
Like to me, that just didn't make sense. And I
get that. He said I will go and watch a movie,
and I get it. This is back in nineteen ninety eight, right,
so back then it may be like a videotape, yeah,
(09:52):
a TVD or video whatever it was back then. So
I get that. But then if it was that late
at night before her bedtime, why not just say no,
do you know, do it another night?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Or he could have went and got the movie and
brought Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
It does And as I said, I don't know why
he's came.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Back with what I said. Maybe it's just not ready
to end the night.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
I suppose.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah, maybe I feel like we're kind of judging, but
never meant, well, it's just and understanding. I think, as
you said, I just try to understand it, try to understand.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Why you would do that because you went, you started
her house, went to his house back And I said,
it probably is because back then, you know, you would
have had a movie.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Collection at your house. It wasn't like on demand like
it is now.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yeah, you can't just want it anyway, So that's.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Probably maybe why. But then you're right, like that was
you know, why do they then go back back then?
Or why does she agree to go if she would know?
And it was going to be quite late for her
daughter's bedtime as well.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
But it's funny though, because it is said as you
just said about her the daughter's bedtime, about Amanda's bedtime,
But it was actually after two am by the time
Amanda went to sleep.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Okay, so which she should have been on the long
gone in her bed.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
So what was.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Actually her bedtime and did for her to go to
sleep at that time? Surely that she had a normal
bedtime surely she would have fell asleep well before then.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
A seven year old, you know, you'd think we'd be
in bed by nine ten latest. Surely made nine ish.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
But yeah, this was you know, this is just the fact. Yes,
So it was after two by the time Amanda went
to sleep in Catherine's bed, and Catherine and Willie lay
down on either side of her. So Willie was still
full dressed, fully dressed, and he still had.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
His shoes on. Oh see, I don't like that.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
So I'm assuming that Catherine wasn't expecting him to stay
over and he was just lying in and.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Oh but I like personally, I mean, I know, everybody's different,
but personally, if I had just met a man two
years before, I certainly wouldn't be letting him lying in
the bed in my seven year old door, whether regardless
of what the situation is.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I just don't think that's appropriate.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Judgeing well, but that's what person and I.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Wouldn't do it.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
But she did. And everybody's different, as you said, like
you know, personally, and if the well, a lot of
people do that. A lot of people have their daughters
in their bed with them, their kids in their bed
with them. I know, that's not something that you do,
but it's mean.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
People do do. I just don't wonder if it was
only a one bedroom like playing.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
No, I think she's got her own bed. But I
think they just because it was just the two of them.
I think they're quite often.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
I just don't personally wouldn't have him lying in the
bedroom my seven year old daughter.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
When I've just met him a few days ago.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
I think she was obviously because he was fully dressed
and everyone like that, she obviously didn't think much.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
She mustn't let them actually do it, I suppose, And.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
We're looking at from a different perspective. She's the way
that he's acting, he's her child, is comfortable well, and
he's he's obviously coming across as a nice sky. And
as I said, because he's fully dresses, still got his
shoes on, she's not going to be thinking anything bad
about that, which I get totally understand that because as
I said, we're looking at from different eyes is what
(13:11):
she used.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Like, let's say, it's just my personal opinion, I wouldn't.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
I wouldn't personally do that, but I know that other
people obviously would.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
I just don't think that that's appropriate.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
So now you used to talk too much and I've
lost my place. Yeah, So they ended up falling asleep.
So when Catherine woke up, both Amanda and Willie were gone.
But I think I think that she actually assumed that
Willie had left during the night. I don't think she
realized that Willie had fell fell asleep because as I said,
(13:47):
he was landing was really cool, dank, he was just
lying in for five minutes. I don't know. I don't
know the situation because we.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Don't know the full situation.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
I would have thought, and she wasn't expecting mistal where
she would have saw him out so she could lock
the door as well.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
That's why I say, if he wasn't in ten on staying,
you think that at some point they'd be like, right, okay,
I'm going now, like i'll see later.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
You know, obviously for sat reason injured want you don't
locked fire to bed.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
So yeah, I don't know, but.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
You know, we're not there. We don't know the circumstances exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
So So back to the search for Amanda. So, after
ruling the parents out, police did a background check on Willie.
He actually had an extensive criminal history, which included arrest
and convictions for sexual battery on children, so naturally he
became a person of interest. Willie had been sentenced to
twenty years in the nineteen eighties for five counts of
(14:35):
sexual battery on a minor and had been released after
seven only six years. So an officer was sent to
Willie's house. He knocked and there was no answer. He
saw a neighbor in his garden, so he asked if
he had seen Willy that day. The neighbor said that
he'd seen Willy leave his house early that morning, which
he said was unusual because usually Willie stayed up late
(14:56):
and he would sleep till late morning and then he
would go crab fishing in the earlier and he also
suggested that Willie may have been in a hurry because
he knocked over a post at the end of his driveway.
So it just seemed a wee bit weirdah normal routine,
min Yeah, So they set about finding Willy. So Catherine
told police that he had told her that he was
going crabfish in that day, but she didn't know where.
(15:19):
So Tampa Bay alone is three hundred square miles, so
it was going to be a hard job. Officers went
to the crab shack where Willie worked, but he wasn't there,
so they spoke to some crabbers who knew Willy and
where he usually went crabbing. They are good to help
detectives look for a Willy, and they took them to
the boat ramp that he regularly used. When they got there,
(15:39):
one of them pointed out a white fod truck with
an empty trailer on it and told detectives that belonged
to Willy. So, yeah, you must be out in the water.
So the person that had their crab boat there, sorry,
that person that has told them that they had their
crab boat there, So they offered to take them out
and look for Willy. So after about half an hour
(16:01):
they located one of Willy's crab boys in the war.
They found fresh bait in his crab traps, so they
knew he was out there somewhere. So eventually they found
him out on the water and they had actually hoped
to find Amanda there with um on the boat, but
he was alone. So detectives explained who they were and
asked him to come to the police station for questioning,
(16:23):
and he agained. One of the detectives asked if he
could ride back in his boat, and he said yes,
So on the way back, the detective noticed Willy's shoes.
He was wearing loafers, which he thought was an odd
choice to be wearing Walsh fishing, and he was dressed
like sort of just a normal clothes k not like
fishing he would normally be dressed, and so it just
(16:43):
was a bit of a odd choice. And he also
noticed that Willie's arms had scratches on them. So they
got back to the sheriff's Sheriff's office, and while Willie
continued to cooperate, he answered questions for several hours about
the night before that he'd spent with Catherine and Amanda.
His version of events was different to Catherine. So, according
to him, a man of Amanda had gone to sleep
(17:05):
in her room bed, So yes, she did her bed. Yes,
I had a niggler and really that I knew the
gender room bed. He said that he did lie down
in Catherine's bed, but only with her. Katherine was in
the bed, and sometime later Amanda came through and got
into the bed in between them, and that's when he left.
And also because he had to get up early for work,
so that was his version is a version, I think,
(17:28):
he said his version of events. So then he told
the police some things that just didn't seem to make sense.
He said that he got home about one thirty am,
which is different to what Catherine said because she had
said that they went to bed at two am. He
then said, without being prompted or question, he said that
when he was at home, we had spilled some bleach.
So it's about weird to sort.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Of say that. Why would you say that?
Speaker 1 (17:50):
And he said he doesn't like the smell of bleach,
so he cleaned up, and then he decided to clean
his whole the whole trailer. Loved her trailer, so he
decided to clean the whole trailer. And it's such suspicious, yeah,
And it was just weird to be telling the police
that without being asked. He just voluntarily came up with
this information. And he was asked about the scratches on
(18:12):
his arms, and he didn't answer. He just stared at
the officer and the officer said, I asked you a question,
like how did you get those scratches? And will he
he's told me or just changed. He was like, Oh,
you're trying to pin this on me. You're trying to
make things up. The police officer said, no, I'm just
asking you how you got those scratches. And will he said,
I don't want to talk about this anymore. So he'd
(18:32):
been cooperative up until that point. So he did hand
over his clothes to police for analysis, and the officer
noticed that there were stains on the front of his
boxer shorts. Stains looked like blood.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
I thought you were going to go that way there, No,
not right now. I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
I think I might go that way. I'm not actually sure.
I can't remember because you know, Jill has a bad memory.
And I wrote wrote with a couple of yes, it's
like a new story.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Let me tell him.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yeah, it's like I'm reading a bit all over again.
So he was given a tiny clothes and let go.
So they didn't want to let him go, but they
had They had nothing to hold him on, so but
they got The police got a search warrant for Willie's
home ten hours after Catherine had reported a madam miss him.
As soon as officers entered his trailer, they got a
(19:26):
strong smell of bleach coming from the bathroom. It was
obviously that the room had been scrubbed clean. One officer
lifted the toilet seat and saw what appeared to be blood,
so the whole toilet seat was dismantled and seized. There
was also tissue down the toilet that looked like it
tried to be flushed, but it stuck to like the
side of the toilet bowl, and that looked like hard
(19:48):
blood on it as well. But it was weird because
it looked clear that Willie had scrubbed the bathroom. He
hadn't actually touched the sink, so he had cleaned like
the bath, the shower stall, the floor, the and the toilet.
So if you're going to scub your bathroom, of course
you're going.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
To scub the think that was just stupid. The stink,
the stink sink.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
The sink had hairs in it, and it just looked
pretty like dirty and grimy, so obviously hadn't have been
cleaned for a while. So prosecutor straight away thought, right,
the bathroom, this this is a crime scene. So everything
was sent for analysis straight away. Later that day, they
took blood and saliva samples from Willie in accordance with
a court order, so until the results came back, they
(20:31):
kept Willie under surveillance and they were like questioning anyone
who they thought could help with their inquiries. So police
interviewed local fishermen who worked in the same area as Willie,
and there was one guy called Al He had seen
Willy on the morning that Amanda disappeared. I said that
him and a friend were sitting They must have got
there a bit earlier, so they were just sitting waiting
(20:52):
on daylight so that they could start working, and they
saw Willie. So Willie's boat was hooked on the back
of his truck, so like you know, you've got the
boat ramps and you're obviously back here in the water,
but he backed it all the way into the water
like past like so like it was basically so the
(21:14):
middle ast tires where that's what it was.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Basically it was in the water.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Truck was in the water, and you just don't do
that because the salt water basically rust like.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, under the truck burst as far as that.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah, and just you know, for somebody who goes fishing
every day, that was really weird that you would do that.
So obviously, the search is still still on for Amanda.
Police was searching hundreds of square miles concentrating on the
areas where will You lived and fished. They were out
on land, air, and the sea. They used a number
of different types of technology like thermal imagen and sonar.
(21:52):
Airboats were used to get to the shallower waters. But
a storm actually came up really quickly one day and
as one of the airboat operators tried to race back
to shore before the storm hit, the storm did. The
storm actually hit and capsized the air boat. So luckily
the crew were rescued, but the boat was lost.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
That was just gone.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
So after all these efforts, Amanda still hadn't been found.
I told you that for a reason.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
We'll come back to that.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
You're looking a bit confused as why I'm telling you
about an airboat.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yes, there's a reason. There's reason. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
So the.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Media attention on Willie continued. He was constantly on the
news and in the papers, and as a result, two
women came forward a legend that Willie had sexually abused
them when they were children. A detective went to interview
them and decided there was enough probable cause in their
story to file charges against Willy. So they filed charges
for these cases, which were from about twenty five twenty
(22:50):
six years ago. These women had lived near him at
the time when they were children. So in Florida, rape
form a child under the age of twelve has no
statute of limitations.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Because years ago.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
But we've heard that, yeah for that for rapier children twelve,
there's no limitations.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
So you can go back as fast.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
So Willy was arrest in charge. So now they had
their main suspect in Amanda's disappearance and custody. The prosecution
had waited three weeks to get test results that the
hope would link Willy to the case. They did look
elsewhere at other suspects, but all other leaves just came
out a dead head.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
They just kept coming back to he was just like
the one.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Yes, So the lab results came back and they found
Amanda's DNA pattern on Willie's underwear, so yeah, we did
go the other way and on his toilet seat. So
that along with the circumstantial evidence that like the way
he had acted at the boat ramp, the way he
was dressed when he was fishing, he had been the
last person to see her, the way he cleaned the bathroom,
(23:55):
all of that convinced police that beyond reasonable doubt, that
he had abducted and kill Amanda. So Willie was charged
with murder and kidnapp him. So the prosecution was convinced
that Amanda died at the hands of Willy Crane, but
without physical evidence, they would have to convince judy how
she died on why her body was missing. So a
(24:19):
year after Amanda's disappearance, Willie stood trial for her murder.
Amanda's body had never been found, and authority is believed
that Amanda had disposed of her in the water at
Tampa Bay.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I mean Willy had disposed What did I just said?
You said Amanda had disposed of her.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Amanda's body had been found, and I thoughities believed that
Willie had disposed of her in the water at Tampa Bay.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Said Amanda herself? Did she?
Speaker 1 (24:43):
So the state believed that Willie selected his victim carefully.
He prayed on women that he knew to be vulnerable
in order to get at his real target, which was
the daughter. So this hen the moment that he'd actually
went after her purpose.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
So a witness in the trial said that he'd had
two conversations with Willie in the past where Willie said
that he if he want to get rid of a body.
He could hide it where no one could find it.
So that statement proved crucial. The state had shown that
Willie not only had the knowledge, but the opportunity to
dispose of his victim's body in the murky waters of
(25:21):
Tampa Bay. They had to they had to explain to jury,
to the jury why Amanda's body had never been recovered.
So they used the incident of the air boat to
the state's advantage. The waters of Tampa Bay were so
bad that you can that you can find a two
thousand pounds steel.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Airboat, Oh god, right, yeah, right, yeah, yeah, find a
body exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
So that showed howat how easy it could be for
an experienced crab fisherman to dispose of a seven year
old's body without leaving a trace of evidence. So that's
why I told you about that the airport. But yeah,
the airboat, that's a lot bigger and a lot. Yeah,
it's a two thousand pounds steel air bow and that
just disappeared.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
And even they didn't find it.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
So how easy would it be disposed of a body?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Oh yeah, totally. It's like a total needle in a haystack.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Sort. So the defense put Willie on the stand, He
said that he had never made it past grade school
and he had been a fisherman all his life. He
had an answer for everything. When asked why he was
in the bedroom with the door shut with Amanda when
her mum was on the phone, he said that he
often kept his door shut to keep the cold air
(26:28):
from his air conditioner escape him. So I told Himada
shut the door because he didn't want the cold air
getting out, Because I was whereas were like shut the
door to keep the heat. Oh, yeah, they want they
want the cold air kept. So that was his excuse
for that. And he also said that Amanda had a
loose tooth and it started to bleed, so that's why
her blood was in the bathroom and why it was
(26:50):
on the big tissue.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
I was going to say, I can I can relate
to that because just lost her.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yeah, so I mean that could have happened along with
what the.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Other stuff as well. But I don't.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
I mean I'm assuming that well Katherine would know she'd
have lose truth or so, I don't know. She said
that was said to Yeah, I don't know. But he
said that the scratches on his arms were from bushes.
He said that people steal crab traps and throw them
in the bushes, so he got scratched trying to get
his crab traps out of the bushes. Yeah, exactly, Well.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Why do you not see that the first place?
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah, exactly, Like that's when he shut down when.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
He's been questioned that was the case. She would think
he'd freely just say, oh, that's how it happened.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
But obviously some time to think about it.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
That's excuse.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Yeah. So the jury obviously didn't believe him though, because
they found Willy guilty of first degree murder in November
nineteen eighty nine. Willie was sentenced to death. His victim
said came forward were allowed to testify at the penalty
phase of his trial. Because he had been convicted of
murder and given the most severe possible sentence, he was
(27:58):
never prosecuted with the old rapes because he's not anybody
sence to death.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
We'll see that makes.
Speaker 4 (28:04):
Sense, because sometimes they do like find them guilty on
all these different counts and give them all these like
random sentences and.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Stuff like that. And I don't get wrong, I mean,
I know you want justice for those other people as well,
but it's ridiculous. You couldn't give them any word in that.
You just wonder why that's not the case at all.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
These Yeah, I have no idea about legal stuff.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
We have no idea. I have no clue.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
So I read an article from twenty ten, because because
he was sentenced to death obviously nineteen out of nine,
I want to say, if we'd actually been put to death.
But all I could find was there was an article
from twenty ten which said that Willie was still on
death row, but it was suffering from call on cancer
(28:49):
and may not live long enough to be executed. So
then I googled is Willy Crane's still alive? And I
found a couple of articles that do indicate that he's
still alive and on death row.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
So okay, if he was, so.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I don't know. I mean, like if he was diagnosed
with quong cancer and said he didn't have long to live,
that was in twenty I was eleven years ago.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
I mean, I know you're not going to answer this question,
but just I just want to.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
I just I just I don't understand, like the death
apparently decided, Like why do people get sentenced to death
and then say ten twenty years later, they've still not
been executed, Like I don't understand that.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Maybe they just wanted them to suffer.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Well, I don't know, but just I just never I mean,
I don't know if there is an answer or not
why that happens.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
But then, yeah, I know you ask me, is.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
It a google?
Speaker 3 (29:38):
I like to put it out there, but I mean,
I know it's not a question that you're gonna have
an answer for for me, but I just like to
put out there, like why is it that people get
sense to death and then you're talking many many years
later there's still not being sentenced death because I mean,
I know, we're going way back in the olden days.
But no, no, no, I don't mean now. I mean I'm
about to say I'm going back in old days when
people were sentence to death like for hanging, they would
(29:59):
be like I was old before that would be were.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Sentenced to death like by hanging, they.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Would pretty much be executed, you know, within days or
you know, a smaller, very small.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Amount of time. When it's now these people that end
up on death row end up on there for very
many I don't understand it either.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
It's strange.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
But then but I don't know.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
I don't know if I agree with the death kindly anyway,
but because if they were put to death and then
they died really quickly, then that's not really a punishment,
I don't think.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
So.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
If they are on death row over twenty years, then
they're being punished because.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
They've been kept because different to them being another's segregated
from normal prisoners and stuff. But you're still serving a
sentence in prisons.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
So I have no idea me neither, but to put
out there like.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
I just don't understand.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Yeah, we know out there, and I can't answer you
because obviously I don't understand either. So so there we
go done. Did you not expect that to finished.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
That that was the killer craver?
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yea. So they never found that poor little girl's body,
So I think it's probably it's very likely that it
is in Tampa Bay.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Well, yeah, I would say so.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
I wonder how many other bodies could be in there, though,
if that's obviously a place to a good I do
always say a good place, but you know what I mean,
like that's a good place to dispose of experience than
those waters. So I wonder if there's more than if
there is.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Bodies in there, probably sadly.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
But anyway, like that's that's so thank you for listening
to our patron episode.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
And we will be back in a couple of eggs
say that the taken
Speaker 2 (32:10):
The Ton in the BA
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