March 28, 2023 • 35 mins
Catherine Wells-Burr thought she was in a loving relationship with her future husband, but unfortunately he was plotting her murder.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Dot Cast Network, bringing over indiepodcasts out of the schedules. Just before
we dive into this week's episode,to the promo, Hello, my name
(00:22):
is Malory Jenna Robinson. Join meand listening to A Hateful Homicide, a
true crime podcast dedicated to telling thestories of the trans and gender non binary
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Jenna nineteen Again. Tune in onSaturdays at twelve pm Pacific Standard time.
Thank you so much for taking atime to listen, and I appreciate each
of us. We wanted you inyour efforts to help me stop trans e
(01:03):
racier and supporting all trans lives.Thank you. Hello and welcome to Crimedivers.
(01:32):
I'm Laura and I'm Jill. Welcomeback. Hello everybody, welcome back,
Thanks for joining us once again.So today we have a lot of
sword we do. So what's thename of your episode called freeze a crowd
YEP, it is definitely yes,and well where are we? Where do
you? Oh? Oh u kyes we are Oh okay. I wonder
(01:57):
then that not that I know everysingle crime gates. So Kathin Wells Burr
was a twenty two year old womenborn in the southwest of England. I
think she was born in Somerset,but I'm not hunder percent sure because it
was not a definite kind of that'swhere she was born, okay, but
it was around that area because shedidn't she lived around basically around that year
(02:20):
her whole life. And you know, our friends in a family would call
her call Katherine Calf as in cA F Calf Calf Yeah, but I
kind of felt like that was anappropriate to Afferia because it was like her
friends in her right, So Iwas going to call her Katherine right name
was Calf. She attended bath SpaUniversity where she studied businesses management, and
she was very intelligent and very ambitiousand she loved music, with eminem being
(02:45):
one of her favorites. So inthe summer of twenty ten, when Katherine
was twenty one years old, shewas just finishing her university of course,
and she got a part time jobat Henhover Factory and Somerset. So while
she was working there, she metan older man that would swoop off her
feet and his name was Rafal NovacRafal Rafal. Okay, it's Polish,
(03:09):
I was gonna say, yeah,I didn't think it was. And he
was twenty nine and originally from Poland. But you know, you had a
normal life over in Poland. They'dhad a wife for child, his life
was going well, but then hedecided to leave all of that and he
didn't want to be with his wifeanymore. He didn't want his child anymore.
Apparently it was a lot of debts, so he decided to come more
(03:30):
to the UK to get a betterjob than of what he had in Poland.
Basically so we could put off hisdebt and start in your life.
Okay. So when he arrived inthe UK, he actually began dating another
Polish woman and her name was AnnaLagavanovich. But we're done. I know.
I thought it was quite good therebecau. I was like, I
was like, good, do't panicdo you say the name in case you
(03:50):
get it wrong. There's no there'sabsolutely no way I would have got that
in no way, so well done. I'm proud of you than if as
Anna from one, but I've gotour last name, so I say she
was Postilia. But as we know, that summer he met Katherine while they
were both working at the hen HooverFactory, so it was still with Anna,
but after meeting Katherine, he startedto like her in a romantic way,
(04:14):
so basically started to see both womenat the same time. So Katherine
was completely unaware of Anna and Annawas completely unaware of Katherine, right,
so it was actually living with Annainitially, but as things began progressing with
Katherine, he realized that he couldn'tkeep it up much longer. He couldn't
keep seeing both women at the sametime, and things were obviously getting a
(04:38):
bit more serious with Katherine because shehad actually introduced Rafal to you know,
her whole family, and you know, they totally welcomed them into the family
as like a son, and Catherinetold her family that she wanted to spend
the rest of her life with them, so Rafal, you know, he
agreed. He decided that he likedKatherine Moore, so he decided to break
up with Anna, which, asopposed a decent thing to do. You
(05:00):
know, she shouldn't really be,but I thinks we're getting more serious.
I get you know, he obviouslydecided that Catherine was the one that he
wanted to be with. So bothwomen, you know, they were still
none the wiser at this point.But obviously when he did break up with
Anna, it's no so both ofher son and the wise at this point.
So as he broke things off withthat, as she had no idea
(05:20):
that Raphal was actually leaving her foran arm right, Okay, he just
thought. She just thought that,well, he didn't want to be with
me, and that was that.So Catherine and Rafal they actually ended up
buying their first home together in atown called Chard which was in Summerset,
and they were, you know,they were both so happy together and they
began talking about the future and theywant to get married, they want to
(05:42):
start a family together. So thingssounds like it's all good. Yeah,
total, it was all She wassious. It's a true crime case,
so we know it's not going tolast. But Catherine was just about to
graduate from university and you know,she was going to move up in her
career or everything was looking bright forher future and in two thousand and eleven,
(06:02):
and when she did graduate, shedecided to get a job which was
still within the hen Hoover factory,but it would be a higher up position.
Right the factory, they actually hada graduate training program, and that's
exactly what she wanted to do.Her actually, actually her mom, her
dad, and her sister, theyall worked in the factory as well,
(06:23):
that's thing, but she was goingto be higher up the name. But
she so basically so she knew eversince she was younger that she wanted to
get into the factory, but shewanted to high up role like a manager.
And that's exactly what she was ontrack to do. But one day
on September in September twelve, Katherinedidn't show up to work. Rafail was
(06:45):
at work because he started earlier thanher, so he would start at like
five six in the morning, whereasbecause Katherine was more like an office if
that sort of best job, shewould start like more like nine o'clock.
Yeah, And so Rafle was atwork and he noticed that, you know,
Katherine hadn't turned up. So hewent across to his manager and he
told him, you know that hewas really worried. He said that he
left Katherine at home in the morning. You know, she was fine.
(07:09):
I gave her a kiss, gubbye, but she's not turned up to
work. And so of course herfal must have been trying to phone her,
because she wasn't answering her phone,she wasn't texting them back. And
as I just said, you know, he started work earlier, but as
Katherine being promoted, you know,she started at nine a m. So
if I would leave her work andKatherine Dubs is still be in bed,
you know, she had never sleptin or missed a shift, so you
(07:30):
know, it was quite unlikely.It was totally a character. You know,
it wasn't something that happened. Buthe you know, he was hoping
that maybe she just felt on wellor something, and so you know,
he just carried on me shifts normaland then finished he was a shift,
and you know, he goes homein the evening, so let's be all
day, like, she's just notturned up, not being answering her calls.
So he goes home, but Katherine'snot at home, so telling she's
(07:55):
not there, our car's gone,so you know, yeah, where is
she? She's obviously gone off somewhereso Rafal called Katherine's parents and said,
Katherine is not home. You know, she didn't turn up for work today,
her car's gone, you know,didn't answer her phone, Like I'm
really really worried, what's happened.So you know, parents decided to jump
(08:16):
in the car come across to thehouse and not on the way. Katherine's
mother actually said that she felt inour gut that something wasn't right. You
know, mother's links think, Ithink, isn't it. Yeah, And
she thought something maybe serious had happened, you know, and you know she's
knew something wasn't right. So bythe time her parents arrived, there will
still be no contact from Katherine toanyone. So I'm assuming they must have
(08:39):
tried to get in touch with itas well. Yeah, but you know,
there was just no no, nonothing, no word from her,
no idea, nothing, nobody hadher from her. So Rafael mentioned to
Katherine's parents that he had one majorworry, and he told them that Katherine
had been getting text and emails froman ex boyfriend for some time now and
they were very a very threatening nature, saying things like if I can't have
(09:03):
you, no one can. Sothey were now all worried for Kathyine's safety,
and Rapal was also worried that Katherinemight do something to herself, as
she was so distressed and anxious withthese texts that you know, she apparently
she'd spoken of suicide before, soyou know, he was saying all these
things. So the family decided thatthis was seed like quite serious. So
(09:24):
they did decide to find a placeand a search began immediately, and the
family they all stayed at home justcomforting each other. But it didn't take
long for the family to receive thenews that they were just dreading the most,
and Katherine had been found, butsadly, she was dead. Her
body had been found on the sideof a road in her own car,
(09:46):
about seven miles away from where shelived, in a town called Ashell,
So that's not the news that theywere as hoping for. So the car
had actually been set on fire andburned out. Katherine's body was inside,
so her body was obviously recovered fromthe car and taking for an autopsy because
at this point it was of courseunclear her exact cause of death. It
(10:07):
just seemed very suspicious, like maybeit was suicide, but it's unlikely that
suicide victims will burn the car atthe I was just thinking that and like,
what would be the point, Yeah, exactly, Like why would so
the fact that the car was seton fire, that looks more like,
you know, someone was trying tocover their tracks to get evidence more than
(10:31):
she'd killed herself. Yeah, soa police you know, rightly. So
they were now treating this as asuspicious death. So they began interviewing all
of Catherine's family. Could cling aFoul, but there was no evidence to
suspect him. But you know,we all know that these kind of unexpected
deaths, police often look at thepartner or an ex partner first. But
police reassured both him and the restof the family that this was just routine
(10:54):
and that they've been looking into allother avenues as well. Sot A Foul
told place he was with Catherine thewhole evening the night before she was found
dead. He said that they'd goneinto the super market to buy some last
minute ingredients for dinner because they weregoing to have burgers, and so they
needed some lettuce and burger buns.And they went back home and they had
(11:16):
a dinner, and then they settleddown to watch a DVD together and then
they went to bed as normal.So the next morning, he woke up
at five o'clock, Catherine was stillasleep, so he got up and got
dressed for work and then, whichI thought was but imagine waking her up,
but then he woke her just togive her a kiss. I would
be like reaching like what you wishedto get. It's like five o'clock in
the morning. Like, but maybepeople do that, but I don't.
(11:37):
I mean, I fag get upfor work because I get out for work
at five o'clock in the morning.I just got up on the closer outside
in the square room and I justgo out. I don't see it,
just a little bye, don't worknow, like because I know he's still
sleeping. So I thought it wasa bit really well, maybe maybe some
people do. I don't know anybody, so yeah, so he got dressed
for work, and then he wokeher up as his leaving to give her
a good bye kiss, and hethen left, leaving Cathy him to go
(12:00):
back to sleep for a bit longer. As we know, she didn't start
for now a few hours. Andhe said that that is what he would
do every morning, and maybe it'sa romantic thing. Maybe we're just not
romantic that you give your partner becausesometimes like if just gets up before me,
like I will wake because if becauseI mean, he's not exactly the
quietest person in the world, andhe'll like coming out of the room of
mind times and if he has ashower obviously going on sweet in the bedroom
(12:24):
and he does annoy me. ButI'm going cough, I've got a bit
to all has had the cold,and I'm now drinking. You're just gonna
be fine up um, But yeah, like when I've got a working five
more, I'm very aware that it'svery early and it's not a normal time
to be up, So I triedto be like really quiet, like literally
I will have my stuff ready inthe spare room. Obviously, I'll get
(12:48):
up going to spare and get dressed. I'll use the other toilet and then
I'll go downstairs and be quiet asa mouse and I'll have to go.
Well, maybe you're just more considerit, Well maybe I am. Maybe
you're just not romantic. Well notthat time mark, definitely not so.
Yeah. Anyway, Catherine's family offeredfor Rafal to actually come and stay with
(13:11):
them as they didn't want him tobe on his own, you know,
they wanted everyone to be together sothat they could come for each other because
obviously, you know, tragedies happened. So you know, I said,
do you remember he was like ason to them, So you know,
of course they did the right thingabout what they thought was the right thing
by inviting them in into their house. So, however, it wasn't long
until Katherine's family actually started to havetheir doubts about Rafal, so much so
(13:35):
that they did actually go to theplace with their concerns. So for starters,
the way that he was acting onthe evening that he found out Katherine
is dead, he just didn't seemas sad as everyone else. And while
people and you know, we know, people deal with different wrong, you
know, people deal with different ways, he didn't. He didn't even cry,
and he barely spoke about Katherine thatnight. He actually spoke more about
(13:58):
wanting a steak dinner then he didabout Then he spoke about losing the love
in his life. Okay, yeah, and I mean her, you know,
her family also recalled something Rafal hadsaid when Catherine was just like missing
at this point, and of courseher whole family are all thinking she would
come back, but Rafal was sayingthat he, you know, he had
lost his world, his whole future. And her family were stood there thinking
(14:20):
she's not even been missing twenty fourhours. Yet It's almost as if Rafal
knew she wasn't going to back.That's what sounds like, you know,
And but os I think at thetime, because you're in that situation,
sometimes you don't really realize what's goingon, don't you. Because they were
so concerned about Catherine at that pointthat things that have been said, it's
only now that they've actually had timeto think about it that I think they've
realized that wasn't quite right. SoCatherine's family also remembered one piece of very
(14:46):
important information, and that was thatKatherine and Rafal had recently taken out life
insurance policies and made each other thesole beneficiaries. And these policies told one
hundred and twenty thousand each. Okay, so that seems quite an expensive amount
for someone so young. But tobe fair, I mean, I thought
maybe it was because because I obviouslyI know that I didn't have life insurance
(15:09):
until we bought a house. Didyou no, I don't know why not.
I don't know. We didn't haveit until until we bought our house.
Um about the first one. Yeah, and that was obviously because you
know, if anything ever happened tothem each other, and then you built
pay off the mortgage. So forme, that's why I thought, well,
maybe that is why it's quite abig amount, because that makes sense
to me that, you know,if you bought a house and somebody dies,
(15:31):
because I mean, it's something happenedto justin I couldn't afford the mortgage
in our house, whereas if Ihad money to pay it off, and
then obviously I wouldn't lose my house. So you know, I totally understand
that sort of saying. But theythought that was quite a lot of money.
Um, so was that for murder? They thought maybe, you know,
did he want the life insurance money? So police decided to look further
(15:52):
into the foul. Again, Ithink it just gets dry when you're talking.
Well, I hope you're not infectiousbecause you're drinking magic. I fine,
I just really dry thro sorry,So police decided to look further into
Rafal. They seized his phone,and they searched his house, and they
(16:15):
soon uncovered that Rafal was living adouble life. He was seeing he supposed
x Anna. Well, I kindof gathered that when you said yeah,
but I did actually wonder did theyactually break up? I mean, I
don't know if they actually did breakup, Like, did they really break
up with her? It's thought thathe did, but I don't know whether
(16:36):
it did or not, or Idon't know. But anyway, he was
there, So text on his phonerevealed that he'd actually been secretly meeting up
with Anna multiple times a week,sometimes even twice a day. And Anna
was obviously aware of Cataine this time, so she was obviously aware of Catherine
as Anna was very jealous of Catherine. Anna was very angry that Rafal wasn't
(16:59):
leaving Catherine for her, and thesetechs suggested that Rafal and Anna had met
up seventy eight times in the past. However, many months and Place also
decided to look into his life inPoland. Oh don't tell me, I
had another and it turned out hehad a criminal record for violence against women.
He'd actually been convicted of a numberof things in Poland, including reckless
(17:19):
drunk drive in but also abusing hiswife, and that was one of the
reasons why he had moved to theUK. Yeah, so it wasn't just
that he didn't want to be withher. I'd obviously had actually been abusing
his wife. So yeah, hesays lovely then, oh god, I
know he's a delight. So whilstthey were looking into Rafal, the police
were also still looking into Kathine's lifeto see what kind of person she was,
(17:42):
you know, what kind of peopleshe would hang around with. And
that was when they found that Katherinehad a number of profiles accounts on adult
online dating sites. These sites weren'tlike Tinder or match dot com. They
were like casual sex meetups right websites. But something was off about these dating
(18:03):
website profiles that Katherine had supposedly setup. She didn't set them up.
The worden just didn't seem like her. And you know, police actually have
her phone so they could see hertext history so they could see what she
talked like and place, so Iwatch, like what kind of words she
used, So it just didn't seemlike it was Katherine right place. Stug
(18:27):
further and they found paragraphic images supposedlyof Katherine, but they weren't. They
were added basically had Katherine's face bodyso messages on the site they dated back
a few months before Katherine's death,but the most recent message that was sent
was at five am on the morningthat Katherine died, and the message was
(18:49):
sent to a tent to a mansaid that she was on her way to
meet him, and then within afew hours, well we know she was
dead. So it was almost like, was that we set up there to
look like she was off to meetsomething some guy. That's why I was
a compute. I was like,is this what's happening? So a police
you know, they got to worktracing the phone number, hoping that it
would lead them back to the manthat she text. So that was happening
(19:11):
in the background. So as theywere doing all of this, Katherine's autopsy
results came back and the results saidthat the cause of death affixiation. Affixiation.
It seemed as though that she mayhave been suffocated somewhere else and then
transported in her car in her car, and so someone else had probably driven
(19:33):
her car to where the car wasfound and she was possibly obviously they don't
know what for sure, but theythink she was possibly in the boot of
the car. She was probably deadat this point, And it was at
this point actually in the case thatpolice recalled that when they first went round
to the house to speak to Rafaalwhen Katherine was still just missing, so
(19:55):
they weren't really looking for anything inparticular odd in the house. But now
that they know or they knew thatCatherine's caused death was basically by suffocation,
they remember police obviously remembered seeing onepillowcase pinked online drying after it had been
washed. Odd rys Yeah, likewho washes? Just wash? Yeah,
(20:17):
totally odd. You know it's notyou know, you wash your bed and
don't you so you together. Yeah, so police now believed that she had
been suffocated with that pillowcase. Yeah, it was on the line and obviously
been washed afterwards. So forensic expertsthey were also saying to look at the
car, and they found that thefire was set around six am that morning.
(20:37):
And while police were suspicious of Raful, he did clock in to work
at five thirty that morning, sohe had a bit of an alibi there,
so it couldn't have been him thatat least set the fire. But
that but what was odd was thatthose same forensic scientists that examined the car
found that Catherine was wearing shorts atthe time of m at the time her
(20:59):
body was burned. And people thatknew Katherine, they'd never seen Katherine wearing
shorts except you know, when Hanksshe had Jammie's on, like you know,
she would be wear shorts, pajamas, right, but she never really
wear shorts. It's like you know, day to day wear. Yeah,
so they thought that was as well, So why would she have driven herself
wearing shorts? But that's just notsomething that she would do. Um.
(21:23):
Yeah. So so basically they decidedthat Katherine had been killed in her sleep
or at least when she was inour pajamas, right, so you know,
she wasn't ready, you know,she wasn't ready for the for the
day, which kind of contradicts thetheory that she was going to meet up
with a man, because that's whatI mean, it's like that she would
be dressed forever exactly, Yeah,because she's not not wear shorts, yeah,
(21:44):
pajama shorts, So why would shewant to meet a man in pajama
shorts? Exactly? She would havebeen dressed. Yeah. So yeah,
so that them so surely, youknow, I said, she would have
got dressed and to go and meetup with this matt Um. So you
know, it is a very confusingcase because there's so many like these different
elements. But all it took wasone more piece of evidence to come forward
(22:04):
from Katherine's autopsy, and that wasthat she still had undigested food in her
stomach at the time that she waskilled. But it would have been impossible
for her to have undigested food stillin her stomach if she was killed any
later than five am. So basicallyshe was killed before I or four or
five am, more likely around twoor three am, which means she would
(22:26):
have been home, and of coursewho would have been home or there.
Of course her husband with Ali.So if al he even told place that
he actually kissed her on his wayto work, but she was dead at
five ms. Obviously he lied totallyabout that about giving a goodbye kiss.
So the thought is that maybe hehad murdered Katherine before he left for work,
(22:48):
and then maybe he's hired someone totake her body away and set fire,
right, I mean, so hisAlbi I would check out because he
would at work, so you know, clearly planning things there. So of
course, I was arrested and broughtinto place custody and from there this is
where it began to all unravel.After reading texts between Rafa and Anna,
police thought that she might know somethingtoo, or could she be involved.
(23:12):
Well this is what this is whatI'm thinking. So she was arrested as
well. Now remember police were tryingto trace the number that Katherine had supposedly
see messages to via the date website. But all police finally got the results
of that and they were able totrace the SIM card to a familiar location.
It was in Anna's car using theSIM card and it's in it's tracking.
(23:37):
They were able to trace Anna's movementsin the two days before Kathy's murder,
so she was seen on CCTV withher uncle at a petrol station.
The two of them were buying Jerrycans of petrol together. So her uncle
was in this as well. Sonow it seemed like three people were involved
in Anna's evolved sorry and Anna's I'mcall. He didn't have any friends,
(24:02):
so he was quite close with Annaand he would basically do anything for her
because he just you know, wejust do anything for her. So it
was awful. So there were nowa few motives of why these people would
come together and murdered Catherine. Therewas the love triangle of obviously between Catherine
and Raffel and Anna. There wasthe money motive maybe that's think maybe that's
why the uncle got involved because ofthe money and motive. So it was
(24:26):
clear clear that had actually been plannedfor months, you know, the fake
profiles because they weren't It wasn't Catherineand it was on these days they were
fake ye all and so basically allum. So basically it was yeah,
it was that was all Anna andRaffel. But the uncle had got involved
that they getting rid of the bodyparts, so he wasn't involved in the
(24:48):
market and they probably were just likethe money they were going to pay them,
and that's maybe why he was involvedwith it. So all three of
them pled not guilty, and theyall said that they had no part in
Katherine's murder. You know, theyhad no idea what happened to her,
and they wouldn't tell the police anything. So the police had to come up
with their own theorized version of event, which are that night as there everything
(25:11):
went as normal, you know,they did go to the supermarket, they
had dinner together, they watched theDVD together, and they went to bed
as normal. So they think thatwhile Katherine was asleep, she's having another
drink. M sorry, yeah,So they believed that while Katherine was asleep,
(25:34):
Raphael picked up a pillow and smotheredher with it while she was sleeping,
and he then called Anna and heruncle to come up to the house
to take Katherine's body away. Theydrove the seven miles with it in the
car, then put her in thedriver's seat of the car, and then
(25:55):
they waited until sixty m to setit on fire because they thought that they'd
create the perfect alib for Rafal yeaum. But then, in a term
of evengs, Rafal and I actuallyturned on each other and whilst they were
in custody, so Rafal said thatAnna killed Catherine out of jealousy, but
Anna said that Rafal had had ahipman to kill Catherine for the insurance money,
(26:18):
and an I even went as faras to turn to smuggle out a
confession letter from this hipman. Supposedlyher cellmate was due to be released,
so Anna wrote a fake confession notefrom the hipman saying Rafal had offered him
twenty thousand pounds to help him killCatherine and so her cellmate. You know,
once she was released, she wouldbasically post it to the police,
(26:42):
all right, yeah, so shewould she she would post it to police
like with a profession note. Iwas thinking, how is how are the
police going to believe that she's gota confession letter in her from this guy
in her cell like herself. Shewould post I was just having a blonde
moment. Earl Sloy got released,but she was they want to do that.
(27:06):
She decided to take it straight tothe police and saying, look what
I was tried to basically make medo here. Yeah, you know,
so that was so yeah, shedidn't that didn't get pulled off. That
was not happing. So anyway,all three were put on trial for murder.
Raphal he sobbed in the docs,saying that he'd lost the love of
(27:27):
his life. Really he said hehad no part in the murder and it
was all Anna. But Rafal,you know, apparently he'd actually been overheard
saying um to Anna because obviously duringthe courts times he's obviously they'd been able
to talk to each other, andsaying that um that he loved her,
so that you know, and shesaid it back, So that just confirmed
(27:49):
to the police, so like heloves her. Yeah, that just confirmed
to the police the theory that thetwo of them murdered Catherine together so that
they could be together, Which whynot just like divorce or I don't know,
like you just to me, it'salmost like you couldn't make up his
mind, like he obviously was withAnna. Originally they met Kathin and then
(28:11):
decided they like Catherine Moore obviously decidedthey want to move on and love a
life with her, but must havestill liked Anna. I think you know,
you're just confusing men. Yeah,it's just ridiculous. Yeah, it
was obviously just going back some forwardand then decided to make a decision which
was murder, which no, notthe answer. So when Rafal was asked
(28:33):
about it, he said when hewas asked about the fact he'd been overheard
saying they loved that, he basicallysaid that he didn't mean it, but
saying it to try and get moreout of Anna about how he how he'd
killed She killed Catherine alone. Sohis defense said that Anna killed Catherine of
jealousy and out of spite because obviouslyRafal had moved on to Catherine. But
(28:56):
yeah, yeah, but when exactlydid she managed to kill? If if
she was killed, she was killedit in the early hours of the morning.
And how exactly was that going tohappen met when you were in bedwear?
Exactly, that's ridiculous. But apparentlythe police actually theorized that they'd wanted
to kill her the night before thatthey actually killed her, but apparently she'd
(29:18):
got a phone call in the middleof the night, so that'd kind of
put their plans to a day back, all right, So she might have
actually been killed the night before ifit hadn't been for this phone call.
So all three were found guilty ofmurder and sentence to life in prison with
a minimum of thirty two years each. Oh, which was even an uncle
considering he well, I mean obviously, you know if he's driven the car
(29:41):
and set the card and fire,so you know, yeah, totally,
he's Yeah, they're just as badas each other, totally. Um,
So you know, they all appealed. They actually all appealed to serve their
sentences back in Poland because apparently itmust be like due to the different laws
or whatever. But if they hadbeen allowed to serve their sentence back in
Poland, the minimum sentences would havebeen reduced from thirty two to twenty five
(30:03):
years, So I'm assuming that mustbe the maximum or something. Obviously,
it's not sure how it works.But thankfully their appeal was rejected, along
with other other appeals to get theirsentences reduced, so they're all serving their
time in UK prisons. Good,which I thought was, yeah, quite
right, you can wit at thecrime over here. Why should you get
(30:25):
to go back to Poland just toget a bit less time on your sentence
And that really annoys me when peopletry to get time off their sentences.
It's like, no, you've donewrong, so serve the time that you're
given. Well, exactly, likewhat you've done is absolutely horrific. As
poor girl, I thought she waswith love of her life. She was
progressing her life really well, withher promotions at work. You know,
she was with the guy who thoughtshe goes been. She went to bed
(30:45):
one night and got sudvocated to deathfor what because he was saying somebody else
you know, Yeah, that's awfuland by the signs with watered our money,
Well yeah exactly. So Catherine's family. They've set up the Catherine Wells
Birth Foundation, which raises money tohelp victims and family of murder victims cope
with the aftermath of a murder,so things like if you're not costing that
(31:07):
sort of And they also campaigned fortighter immigration laws in the UK, saying
that people who moved to the UKfrom other countries that aren't screened enough in
terms of their criminal history. Aswe know, Raphael was known to the
post authorities for abused his wife anddirector strict driving, So why wasn't that
sort of you know, they shoulddefinitely be stricted or definitely yeah when he's
(31:30):
because you know he's obviously had previousform of So Australia they're like they're really
strict me they let in if you'vegot a criminal record and you're not getting
in yeah, I know. Sothat's what I mean, Like, if
he's come across the UK live,I mean, there should be a better
screaming screening way of Fine, youwant to come and live here, but
(31:52):
you know, we need to seeeverything on the table and what you've brought
up to. We're in the countrythat you'd be living and if you've been
seen to doing that. To me, he should have been refused entry.
Who's entry to the UK. Andthat's when I think sometimes we're a bit
softer the UK. We just definitely, you know, we do let a
lot of people in without really clearlylooking at their background. Where's the studio.
Somebody might think they're too strict,but actually I totally agree, Like
(32:13):
why would they want somebody in theircountry that's how a criminal record that could
then potentially offend in their country,which actually he's done. Yeah he's offended
in our country. No, Itotally agree with that. I think,
you know, if you're you're lettingpeople into the country, which is fine,
but just screen them better. Imean I must have met mean because
I was going back sort of tenyears. I mean I didn't find any
(32:35):
she really looked in the update ofthat, but I didn't see if they
had been successful in there, becauseI mean that I'd say that's ten years
ago. I mean, I stufflike a bit soft in the UK personally,
but um but yes, so yes, so yeah three was definitely a
crowd and sadly this poor girl losther life just because she had no idea
of She never knew about Anna.So like she's aware of why women it's
(33:00):
still living her life, doing herthing, not knowing that her husband has
got another woman and it's actually plantand there's been plant of her God knows
how long to kill her. Andthen I wonder if she knew that I
hadn't she should have known that ithad next wife, because when you get
married at to produce. As faras she was concerned, he just so
(33:21):
he wouldn't have known about the abuse. She just thought that, oh they
didn't want to be He didn't wantto be there anymore, so left her.
And although I would have questioned why, I don't want it to do
his child, so he had achild with the first she might might again,
I mean because it wasn't. Ijust watched a sort of documentary and
the bits from m video so itwas there wasn't like I mean, I
(33:45):
love enough detail there, but Imean there was still bits that you fully
wouldn't know about it, as wewill, we always say we're never going
to know every single exactly, sowe don't know what he would have told
Catherine about his previous life in Poland. I mean, no idea. So
again, maybe she wasn't it wehad at all she might see it would
be easy enough for him to keepa child from her, as I said,
like, because I remember when Igot married, and this if you
(34:07):
if they said, if you'd beendivorced, y, I weren't married because
they weren't there to get married.So maybe that's why. But because they
hadn't got to the stage, shemight not have even known they'd be married
before. That's true, she mightnot have. I mean, I said,
all she thought was that she'd gotthis job that she was progressing in.
She'd met the man that she fellin love with. They abously bought
a house together, they were planningher future together, and she thought things
(34:29):
were going really well. She hadno reason I guess to suspect that anything
was wrong and absolutely awful, isn'tthat? Yeah? Absolutely, but totally
heartbreaker as well. Oh well forthat, And thanks to all our listeners
for her being here for another week. And we'll see you next time.
See you later. If you'd liketo get in contact with us or follow
(34:50):
us on our social media, weare on Instagram and Twitter at Crime Unscore
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(35:16):
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Dot Cast Network, bringing over indiepodcasts out of the schedules. Just before
we dive into this week's episode,to the promo, Hello, my name
(00:22):
is Malory Jenna Robinson. Join meand listening to A Hateful Homicide, a
true crime podcast dedicated to telling thestories of the trans and gender non binary
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(00:42):
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Jenna nineteen Again. Tune in onSaturdays at twelve pm Pacific Standard time.
Thank you so much for taking atime to listen, and I appreciate each
of us. We wanted you inyour efforts to help me stop trans e
(01:03):
racier and supporting all trans lives.Thank you. Hello and welcome to Crimedivers.
(01:32):
I'm Laura and I'm Jill. Welcomeback. Hello everybody, welcome back,
Thanks for joining us once again.So today we have a lot of
sword we do. So what's thename of your episode called freeze a crowd
YEP, it is definitely yes,and well where are we? Where do
you? Oh? Oh u kyes we are Oh okay. I wonder
(01:57):
then that not that I know everysingle crime gates. So Kathin Wells Burr
was a twenty two year old womenborn in the southwest of England. I
think she was born in Somerset,but I'm not hunder percent sure because it
was not a definite kind of that'swhere she was born, okay, but
it was around that area because shedidn't she lived around basically around that year
(02:20):
her whole life. And you know, our friends in a family would call
her call Katherine Calf as in cA F Calf Calf Yeah, but I
kind of felt like that was anappropriate to Afferia because it was like her
friends in her right, So Iwas going to call her Katherine right name
was Calf. She attended bath SpaUniversity where she studied businesses management, and
she was very intelligent and very ambitiousand she loved music, with eminem being
(02:45):
one of her favorites. So inthe summer of twenty ten, when Katherine
was twenty one years old, shewas just finishing her university of course,
and she got a part time jobat Henhover Factory and Somerset. So while
she was working there, she metan older man that would swoop off her
feet and his name was Rafal NovacRafal Rafal. Okay, it's Polish,
(03:09):
I was gonna say, yeah,I didn't think it was. And he
was twenty nine and originally from Poland. But you know, you had a
normal life over in Poland. They'dhad a wife for child, his life
was going well, but then hedecided to leave all of that and he
didn't want to be with his wifeanymore. He didn't want his child anymore.
Apparently it was a lot of debts, so he decided to come more
(03:30):
to the UK to get a betterjob than of what he had in Poland.
Basically so we could put off hisdebt and start in your life.
Okay. So when he arrived inthe UK, he actually began dating another
Polish woman and her name was AnnaLagavanovich. But we're done. I know.
I thought it was quite good therebecau. I was like, I
was like, good, do't panicdo you say the name in case you
(03:50):
get it wrong. There's no there'sabsolutely no way I would have got that
in no way, so well done. I'm proud of you than if as
Anna from one, but I've gotour last name, so I say she
was Postilia. But as we know, that summer he met Katherine while they
were both working at the hen HooverFactory, so it was still with Anna,
but after meeting Katherine, he startedto like her in a romantic way,
(04:14):
so basically started to see both womenat the same time. So Katherine
was completely unaware of Anna and Annawas completely unaware of Katherine, right,
so it was actually living with Annainitially, but as things began progressing with
Katherine, he realized that he couldn'tkeep it up much longer. He couldn't
keep seeing both women at the sametime, and things were obviously getting a
(04:38):
bit more serious with Katherine because shehad actually introduced Rafal to you know,
her whole family, and you know, they totally welcomed them into the family
as like a son, and Catherinetold her family that she wanted to spend
the rest of her life with them, so Rafal, you know, he
agreed. He decided that he likedKatherine Moore, so he decided to break
up with Anna, which, asopposed a decent thing to do. You
(05:00):
know, she shouldn't really be,but I thinks we're getting more serious.
I get you know, he obviouslydecided that Catherine was the one that he
wanted to be with. So bothwomen, you know, they were still
none the wiser at this point.But obviously when he did break up with
Anna, it's no so both ofher son and the wise at this point.
So as he broke things off withthat, as she had no idea
(05:20):
that Raphal was actually leaving her foran arm right, Okay, he just
thought. She just thought that,well, he didn't want to be with
me, and that was that.So Catherine and Rafal they actually ended up
buying their first home together in atown called Chard which was in Summerset,
and they were, you know,they were both so happy together and they
began talking about the future and theywant to get married, they want to
(05:42):
start a family together. So thingssounds like it's all good. Yeah,
total, it was all She wassious. It's a true crime case,
so we know it's not going tolast. But Catherine was just about to
graduate from university and you know,she was going to move up in her
career or everything was looking bright forher future and in two thousand and eleven,
(06:02):
and when she did graduate, shedecided to get a job which was
still within the hen Hoover factory,but it would be a higher up position.
Right the factory, they actually hada graduate training program, and that's
exactly what she wanted to do.Her actually, actually her mom, her
dad, and her sister, theyall worked in the factory as well,
(06:23):
that's thing, but she was goingto be higher up the name. But
she so basically so she knew eversince she was younger that she wanted to
get into the factory, but shewanted to high up role like a manager.
And that's exactly what she was ontrack to do. But one day
on September in September twelve, Katherinedidn't show up to work. Rafail was
(06:45):
at work because he started earlier thanher, so he would start at like
five six in the morning, whereasbecause Katherine was more like an office if
that sort of best job, shewould start like more like nine o'clock.
Yeah, And so Rafle was atwork and he noticed that, you know,
Katherine hadn't turned up. So hewent across to his manager and he
told him, you know that hewas really worried. He said that he
left Katherine at home in the morning. You know, she was fine.
(07:09):
I gave her a kiss, gubbye, but she's not turned up to
work. And so of course herfal must have been trying to phone her,
because she wasn't answering her phone,she wasn't texting them back. And
as I just said, you know, he started work earlier, but as
Katherine being promoted, you know,she started at nine a m. So
if I would leave her work andKatherine Dubs is still be in bed,
you know, she had never sleptin or missed a shift, so you
(07:30):
know, it was quite unlikely.It was totally a character. You know,
it wasn't something that happened. Buthe you know, he was hoping
that maybe she just felt on wellor something, and so you know,
he just carried on me shifts normaland then finished he was a shift,
and you know, he goes homein the evening, so let's be all
day, like, she's just notturned up, not being answering her calls.
So he goes home, but Katherine'snot at home, so telling she's
(07:55):
not there, our car's gone,so you know, yeah, where is
she? She's obviously gone off somewhereso Rafal called Katherine's parents and said,
Katherine is not home. You know, she didn't turn up for work today,
her car's gone, you know,didn't answer her phone, Like I'm
really really worried, what's happened.So you know, parents decided to jump
(08:16):
in the car come across to thehouse and not on the way. Katherine's
mother actually said that she felt inour gut that something wasn't right. You
know, mother's links think, Ithink, isn't it. Yeah, And
she thought something maybe serious had happened, you know, and you know she's
knew something wasn't right. So bythe time her parents arrived, there will
still be no contact from Katherine toanyone. So I'm assuming they must have
(08:39):
tried to get in touch with itas well. Yeah, but you know,
there was just no no, nonothing, no word from her,
no idea, nothing, nobody hadher from her. So Rafael mentioned to
Katherine's parents that he had one majorworry, and he told them that Katherine
had been getting text and emails froman ex boyfriend for some time now and
they were very a very threatening nature, saying things like if I can't have
(09:03):
you, no one can. Sothey were now all worried for Kathyine's safety,
and Rapal was also worried that Katherinemight do something to herself, as
she was so distressed and anxious withthese texts that you know, she apparently
she'd spoken of suicide before, soyou know, he was saying all these
things. So the family decided thatthis was seed like quite serious. So
(09:24):
they did decide to find a placeand a search began immediately, and the
family they all stayed at home justcomforting each other. But it didn't take
long for the family to receive thenews that they were just dreading the most,
and Katherine had been found, butsadly, she was dead. Her
body had been found on the sideof a road in her own car,
(09:46):
about seven miles away from where shelived, in a town called Ashell,
So that's not the news that theywere as hoping for. So the car
had actually been set on fire andburned out. Katherine's body was inside,
so her body was obviously recovered fromthe car and taking for an autopsy because
at this point it was of courseunclear her exact cause of death. It
(10:07):
just seemed very suspicious, like maybeit was suicide, but it's unlikely that
suicide victims will burn the car atthe I was just thinking that and like,
what would be the point, Yeah, exactly, Like why would so
the fact that the car was seton fire, that looks more like,
you know, someone was trying tocover their tracks to get evidence more than
(10:31):
she'd killed herself. Yeah, soa police you know, rightly. So
they were now treating this as asuspicious death. So they began interviewing all
of Catherine's family. Could cling aFoul, but there was no evidence to
suspect him. But you know,we all know that these kind of unexpected
deaths, police often look at thepartner or an ex partner first. But
police reassured both him and the restof the family that this was just routine
(10:54):
and that they've been looking into allother avenues as well. Sot A Foul
told place he was with Catherine thewhole evening the night before she was found
dead. He said that they'd goneinto the super market to buy some last
minute ingredients for dinner because they weregoing to have burgers, and so they
needed some lettuce and burger buns.And they went back home and they had
(11:16):
a dinner, and then they settleddown to watch a DVD together and then
they went to bed as normal.So the next morning, he woke up
at five o'clock, Catherine was stillasleep, so he got up and got
dressed for work and then, whichI thought was but imagine waking her up,
but then he woke her just togive her a kiss. I would
be like reaching like what you wishedto get. It's like five o'clock in
the morning. Like, but maybepeople do that, but I don't.
(11:37):
I mean, I fag get upfor work because I get out for work
at five o'clock in the morning.I just got up on the closer outside
in the square room and I justgo out. I don't see it,
just a little bye, don't worknow, like because I know he's still
sleeping. So I thought it wasa bit really well, maybe maybe some
people do. I don't know anybody, so yeah, so he got dressed
for work, and then he wokeher up as his leaving to give her
a good bye kiss, and hethen left, leaving Cathy him to go
(12:00):
back to sleep for a bit longer. As we know, she didn't start
for now a few hours. Andhe said that that is what he would
do every morning, and maybe it'sa romantic thing. Maybe we're just not
romantic that you give your partner becausesometimes like if just gets up before me,
like I will wake because if becauseI mean, he's not exactly the
quietest person in the world, andhe'll like coming out of the room of
mind times and if he has ashower obviously going on sweet in the bedroom
(12:24):
and he does annoy me. ButI'm going cough, I've got a bit
to all has had the cold,and I'm now drinking. You're just gonna
be fine up um, But yeah, like when I've got a working five
more, I'm very aware that it'svery early and it's not a normal time
to be up, So I triedto be like really quiet, like literally
I will have my stuff ready inthe spare room. Obviously, I'll get
(12:48):
up going to spare and get dressed. I'll use the other toilet and then
I'll go downstairs and be quiet asa mouse and I'll have to go.
Well, maybe you're just more considerit, Well maybe I am. Maybe
you're just not romantic. Well notthat time mark, definitely not so.
Yeah. Anyway, Catherine's family offeredfor Rafal to actually come and stay with
(13:11):
them as they didn't want him tobe on his own, you know,
they wanted everyone to be together sothat they could come for each other because
obviously, you know, tragedies happened. So you know, I said,
do you remember he was like ason to them, So you know,
of course they did the right thingabout what they thought was the right thing
by inviting them in into their house. So, however, it wasn't long
until Katherine's family actually started to havetheir doubts about Rafal, so much so
(13:35):
that they did actually go to theplace with their concerns. So for starters,
the way that he was acting onthe evening that he found out Katherine
is dead, he just didn't seemas sad as everyone else. And while
people and you know, we know, people deal with different wrong, you
know, people deal with different ways, he didn't. He didn't even cry,
and he barely spoke about Katherine thatnight. He actually spoke more about
(13:58):
wanting a steak dinner then he didabout Then he spoke about losing the love
in his life. Okay, yeah, and I mean her, you know,
her family also recalled something Rafal hadsaid when Catherine was just like missing
at this point, and of courseher whole family are all thinking she would
come back, but Rafal was sayingthat he, you know, he had
lost his world, his whole future. And her family were stood there thinking
(14:20):
she's not even been missing twenty fourhours. Yet It's almost as if Rafal
knew she wasn't going to back.That's what sounds like, you know,
And but os I think at thetime, because you're in that situation,
sometimes you don't really realize what's goingon, don't you. Because they were
so concerned about Catherine at that pointthat things that have been said, it's
only now that they've actually had timeto think about it that I think they've
realized that wasn't quite right. SoCatherine's family also remembered one piece of very
(14:46):
important information, and that was thatKatherine and Rafal had recently taken out life
insurance policies and made each other thesole beneficiaries. And these policies told one
hundred and twenty thousand each. Okay, so that seems quite an expensive amount
for someone so young. But tobe fair, I mean, I thought
maybe it was because because I obviouslyI know that I didn't have life insurance
(15:09):
until we bought a house. Didyou no, I don't know why not.
I don't know. We didn't haveit until until we bought our house.
Um about the first one. Yeah, and that was obviously because you
know, if anything ever happened tothem each other, and then you built
pay off the mortgage. So forme, that's why I thought, well,
maybe that is why it's quite abig amount, because that makes sense
to me that, you know,if you bought a house and somebody dies,
(15:31):
because I mean, it's something happenedto justin I couldn't afford the mortgage
in our house, whereas if Ihad money to pay it off, and
then obviously I wouldn't lose my house. So you know, I totally understand
that sort of saying. But theythought that was quite a lot of money.
Um, so was that for murder? They thought maybe, you know,
did he want the life insurance money? So police decided to look further
(15:52):
into the foul. Again, Ithink it just gets dry when you're talking.
Well, I hope you're not infectiousbecause you're drinking magic. I fine,
I just really dry thro sorry,So police decided to look further into
Rafal. They seized his phone,and they searched his house, and they
(16:15):
soon uncovered that Rafal was living adouble life. He was seeing he supposed
x Anna. Well, I kindof gathered that when you said yeah,
but I did actually wonder did theyactually break up? I mean, I
don't know if they actually did breakup, Like, did they really break
up with her? It's thought thathe did, but I don't know whether
(16:36):
it did or not, or Idon't know. But anyway, he was
there, So text on his phonerevealed that he'd actually been secretly meeting up
with Anna multiple times a week,sometimes even twice a day. And Anna
was obviously aware of Cataine this time, so she was obviously aware of Catherine
as Anna was very jealous of Catherine. Anna was very angry that Rafal wasn't
(16:59):
leaving Catherine for her, and thesetechs suggested that Rafal and Anna had met
up seventy eight times in the past. However, many months and Place also
decided to look into his life inPoland. Oh don't tell me, I
had another and it turned out hehad a criminal record for violence against women.
He'd actually been convicted of a numberof things in Poland, including reckless
(17:19):
drunk drive in but also abusing hiswife, and that was one of the
reasons why he had moved to theUK. Yeah, so it wasn't just
that he didn't want to be withher. I'd obviously had actually been abusing
his wife. So yeah, hesays lovely then, oh god, I
know he's a delight. So whilstthey were looking into Rafal, the police
were also still looking into Kathine's lifeto see what kind of person she was,
(17:42):
you know, what kind of peopleshe would hang around with. And
that was when they found that Katherinehad a number of profiles accounts on adult
online dating sites. These sites weren'tlike Tinder or match dot com. They
were like casual sex meetups right websites. But something was off about these dating
(18:03):
website profiles that Katherine had supposedly setup. She didn't set them up.
The worden just didn't seem like her. And you know, police actually have
her phone so they could see hertext history so they could see what she
talked like and place, so Iwatch, like what kind of words she
used, So it just didn't seemlike it was Katherine right place. Stug
(18:27):
further and they found paragraphic images supposedlyof Katherine, but they weren't. They
were added basically had Katherine's face bodyso messages on the site they dated back
a few months before Katherine's death,but the most recent message that was sent
was at five am on the morningthat Katherine died, and the message was
(18:49):
sent to a tent to a mansaid that she was on her way to
meet him, and then within afew hours, well we know she was
dead. So it was almost like, was that we set up there to
look like she was off to meetsomething some guy. That's why I was
a compute. I was like,is this what's happening? So a police
you know, they got to worktracing the phone number, hoping that it
would lead them back to the manthat she text. So that was happening
(19:11):
in the background. So as theywere doing all of this, Katherine's autopsy
results came back and the results saidthat the cause of death affixiation. Affixiation.
It seemed as though that she mayhave been suffocated somewhere else and then
transported in her car in her car, and so someone else had probably driven
(19:33):
her car to where the car wasfound and she was possibly obviously they don't
know what for sure, but theythink she was possibly in the boot of
the car. She was probably deadat this point, And it was at
this point actually in the case thatpolice recalled that when they first went round
to the house to speak to Rafaalwhen Katherine was still just missing, so
(19:55):
they weren't really looking for anything inparticular odd in the house. But now
that they know or they knew thatCatherine's caused death was basically by suffocation,
they remember police obviously remembered seeing onepillowcase pinked online drying after it had been
washed. Odd rys Yeah, likewho washes? Just wash? Yeah,
(20:17):
totally odd. You know it's notyou know, you wash your bed and
don't you so you together. Yeah, so police now believed that she had
been suffocated with that pillowcase. Yeah, it was on the line and obviously
been washed afterwards. So forensic expertsthey were also saying to look at the
car, and they found that thefire was set around six am that morning.
(20:37):
And while police were suspicious of Raful, he did clock in to work
at five thirty that morning, sohe had a bit of an alibi there,
so it couldn't have been him thatat least set the fire. But
that but what was odd was thatthose same forensic scientists that examined the car
found that Catherine was wearing shorts atthe time of m at the time her
(20:59):
body was burned. And people thatknew Katherine, they'd never seen Katherine wearing
shorts except you know, when Hanksshe had Jammie's on, like you know,
she would be wear shorts, pajamas, right, but she never really
wear shorts. It's like you know, day to day wear. Yeah,
so they thought that was as well, So why would she have driven herself
wearing shorts? But that's just notsomething that she would do. Um.
(21:23):
Yeah. So so basically they decidedthat Katherine had been killed in her sleep
or at least when she was inour pajamas, right, so you know,
she wasn't ready, you know,she wasn't ready for the for the
day, which kind of contradicts thetheory that she was going to meet up
with a man, because that's whatI mean, it's like that she would
be dressed forever exactly, Yeah,because she's not not wear shorts, yeah,
(21:44):
pajama shorts, So why would shewant to meet a man in pajama
shorts? Exactly? She would havebeen dressed. Yeah. So yeah,
so that them so surely, youknow, I said, she would have
got dressed and to go and meetup with this matt Um. So you
know, it is a very confusingcase because there's so many like these different
elements. But all it took wasone more piece of evidence to come forward
(22:04):
from Katherine's autopsy, and that wasthat she still had undigested food in her
stomach at the time that she waskilled. But it would have been impossible
for her to have undigested food stillin her stomach if she was killed any
later than five am. So basicallyshe was killed before I or four or
five am, more likely around twoor three am, which means she would
(22:26):
have been home, and of coursewho would have been home or there.
Of course her husband with Ali.So if al he even told place that
he actually kissed her on his wayto work, but she was dead at
five ms. Obviously he lied totallyabout that about giving a goodbye kiss.
So the thought is that maybe hehad murdered Katherine before he left for work,
(22:48):
and then maybe he's hired someone totake her body away and set fire,
right, I mean, so hisAlbi I would check out because he
would at work, so you know, clearly planning things there. So of
course, I was arrested and broughtinto place custody and from there this is
where it began to all unravel.After reading texts between Rafa and Anna,
police thought that she might know somethingtoo, or could she be involved.
(23:12):
Well this is what this is whatI'm thinking. So she was arrested as
well. Now remember police were tryingto trace the number that Katherine had supposedly
see messages to via the date website. But all police finally got the results
of that and they were able totrace the SIM card to a familiar location.
It was in Anna's car using theSIM card and it's in it's tracking.
(23:37):
They were able to trace Anna's movementsin the two days before Kathy's murder,
so she was seen on CCTV withher uncle at a petrol station.
The two of them were buying Jerrycans of petrol together. So her uncle
was in this as well. Sonow it seemed like three people were involved
in Anna's evolved sorry and Anna's I'mcall. He didn't have any friends,
(24:02):
so he was quite close with Annaand he would basically do anything for her
because he just you know, wejust do anything for her. So it
was awful. So there were nowa few motives of why these people would
come together and murdered Catherine. Therewas the love triangle of obviously between Catherine
and Raffel and Anna. There wasthe money motive maybe that's think maybe that's
why the uncle got involved because ofthe money and motive. So it was
(24:26):
clear clear that had actually been plannedfor months, you know, the fake
profiles because they weren't It wasn't Catherineand it was on these days they were
fake ye all and so basically allum. So basically it was yeah,
it was that was all Anna andRaffel. But the uncle had got involved
that they getting rid of the bodyparts, so he wasn't involved in the
(24:48):
market and they probably were just likethe money they were going to pay them,
and that's maybe why he was involvedwith it. So all three of
them pled not guilty, and theyall said that they had no part in
Katherine's murder. You know, theyhad no idea what happened to her,
and they wouldn't tell the police anything. So the police had to come up
with their own theorized version of event, which are that night as there everything
(25:11):
went as normal, you know,they did go to the supermarket, they
had dinner together, they watched theDVD together, and they went to bed
as normal. So they think thatwhile Katherine was asleep, she's having another
drink. M sorry, yeah,So they believed that while Katherine was asleep,
(25:34):
Raphael picked up a pillow and smotheredher with it while she was sleeping,
and he then called Anna and heruncle to come up to the house
to take Katherine's body away. Theydrove the seven miles with it in the
car, then put her in thedriver's seat of the car, and then
(25:55):
they waited until sixty m to setit on fire because they thought that they'd
create the perfect alib for Rafal yeaum. But then, in a term
of evengs, Rafal and I actuallyturned on each other and whilst they were
in custody, so Rafal said thatAnna killed Catherine out of jealousy, but
Anna said that Rafal had had ahipman to kill Catherine for the insurance money,
(26:18):
and an I even went as faras to turn to smuggle out a
confession letter from this hipman. Supposedlyher cellmate was due to be released,
so Anna wrote a fake confession notefrom the hipman saying Rafal had offered him
twenty thousand pounds to help him killCatherine and so her cellmate. You know,
once she was released, she wouldbasically post it to the police,
(26:42):
all right, yeah, so shewould she she would post it to police
like with a profession note. Iwas thinking, how is how are the
police going to believe that she's gota confession letter in her from this guy
in her cell like herself. Shewould post I was just having a blonde
moment. Earl Sloy got released,but she was they want to do that.
(27:06):
She decided to take it straight tothe police and saying, look what
I was tried to basically make medo here. Yeah, you know,
so that was so yeah, shedidn't that didn't get pulled off. That
was not happing. So anyway,all three were put on trial for murder.
Raphal he sobbed in the docs,saying that he'd lost the love of
(27:27):
his life. Really he said hehad no part in the murder and it
was all Anna. But Rafal,you know, apparently he'd actually been overheard
saying um to Anna because obviously duringthe courts times he's obviously they'd been able
to talk to each other, andsaying that um that he loved her,
so that you know, and shesaid it back, So that just confirmed
(27:49):
to the police, so like heloves her. Yeah, that just confirmed
to the police the theory that thetwo of them murdered Catherine together so that
they could be together, Which whynot just like divorce or I don't know,
like you just to me, it'salmost like you couldn't make up his
mind, like he obviously was withAnna. Originally they met Kathin and then
(28:11):
decided they like Catherine Moore obviously decidedthey want to move on and love a
life with her, but must havestill liked Anna. I think you know,
you're just confusing men. Yeah,it's just ridiculous. Yeah, it
was obviously just going back some forwardand then decided to make a decision which
was murder, which no, notthe answer. So when Rafal was asked
(28:33):
about it, he said when hewas asked about the fact he'd been overheard
saying they loved that, he basicallysaid that he didn't mean it, but
saying it to try and get moreout of Anna about how he how he'd
killed She killed Catherine alone. Sohis defense said that Anna killed Catherine of
jealousy and out of spite because obviouslyRafal had moved on to Catherine. But
(28:56):
yeah, yeah, but when exactlydid she managed to kill? If if
she was killed, she was killedit in the early hours of the morning.
And how exactly was that going tohappen met when you were in bedwear?
Exactly, that's ridiculous. But apparentlythe police actually theorized that they'd wanted
to kill her the night before thatthey actually killed her, but apparently she'd
(29:18):
got a phone call in the middleof the night, so that'd kind of
put their plans to a day back, all right, So she might have
actually been killed the night before ifit hadn't been for this phone call.
So all three were found guilty ofmurder and sentence to life in prison with
a minimum of thirty two years each. Oh, which was even an uncle
considering he well, I mean obviously, you know if he's driven the car
(29:41):
and set the card and fire,so you know, yeah, totally,
he's Yeah, they're just as badas each other, totally. Um,
So you know, they all appealed. They actually all appealed to serve their
sentences back in Poland because apparently itmust be like due to the different laws
or whatever. But if they hadbeen allowed to serve their sentence back in
Poland, the minimum sentences would havebeen reduced from thirty two to twenty five
(30:03):
years, So I'm assuming that mustbe the maximum or something. Obviously,
it's not sure how it works.But thankfully their appeal was rejected, along
with other other appeals to get theirsentences reduced, so they're all serving their
time in UK prisons. Good,which I thought was, yeah, quite
right, you can wit at thecrime over here. Why should you get
(30:25):
to go back to Poland just toget a bit less time on your sentence
And that really annoys me when peopletry to get time off their sentences.
It's like, no, you've donewrong, so serve the time that you're
given. Well, exactly, likewhat you've done is absolutely horrific. As
poor girl, I thought she waswith love of her life. She was
progressing her life really well, withher promotions at work. You know,
she was with the guy who thoughtshe goes been. She went to bed
(30:45):
one night and got sudvocated to deathfor what because he was saying somebody else
you know, Yeah, that's awfuland by the signs with watered our money,
Well yeah exactly. So Catherine's family. They've set up the Catherine Wells
Birth Foundation, which raises money tohelp victims and family of murder victims cope
with the aftermath of a murder,so things like if you're not costing that
(31:07):
sort of And they also campaigned fortighter immigration laws in the UK, saying
that people who moved to the UKfrom other countries that aren't screened enough in
terms of their criminal history. Aswe know, Raphael was known to the
post authorities for abused his wife anddirector strict driving, So why wasn't that
sort of you know, they shoulddefinitely be stricted or definitely yeah when he's
(31:30):
because you know he's obviously had previousform of So Australia they're like they're really
strict me they let in if you'vegot a criminal record and you're not getting
in yeah, I know. Sothat's what I mean, Like, if
he's come across the UK live,I mean, there should be a better
screaming screening way of Fine, youwant to come and live here, but
(31:52):
you know, we need to seeeverything on the table and what you've brought
up to. We're in the countrythat you'd be living and if you've been
seen to doing that. To me, he should have been refused entry.
Who's entry to the UK. Andthat's when I think sometimes we're a bit
softer the UK. We just definitely, you know, we do let a
lot of people in without really clearlylooking at their background. Where's the studio.
Somebody might think they're too strict,but actually I totally agree, Like
(32:13):
why would they want somebody in theircountry that's how a criminal record that could
then potentially offend in their country,which actually he's done. Yeah he's offended
in our country. No, Itotally agree with that. I think,
you know, if you're you're lettingpeople into the country, which is fine,
but just screen them better. Imean I must have met mean because
I was going back sort of tenyears. I mean I didn't find any
(32:35):
she really looked in the update ofthat, but I didn't see if they
had been successful in there, becauseI mean that I'd say that's ten years
ago. I mean, I stufflike a bit soft in the UK personally,
but um but yes, so yes, so yeah three was definitely a
crowd and sadly this poor girl losther life just because she had no idea
of She never knew about Anna.So like she's aware of why women it's
(33:00):
still living her life, doing herthing, not knowing that her husband has
got another woman and it's actually plantand there's been plant of her God knows
how long to kill her. Andthen I wonder if she knew that I
hadn't she should have known that ithad next wife, because when you get
married at to produce. As faras she was concerned, he just so
(33:21):
he wouldn't have known about the abuse. She just thought that, oh they
didn't want to be He didn't wantto be there anymore, so left her.
And although I would have questioned why, I don't want it to do
his child, so he had achild with the first she might might again,
I mean because it wasn't. Ijust watched a sort of documentary and
the bits from m video so itwas there wasn't like I mean, I
(33:45):
love enough detail there, but Imean there was still bits that you fully
wouldn't know about it, as wewill, we always say we're never going
to know every single exactly, sowe don't know what he would have told
Catherine about his previous life in Poland. I mean, no idea. So
again, maybe she wasn't it wehad at all she might see it would
be easy enough for him to keepa child from her, as I said,
like, because I remember when Igot married, and this if you
(34:07):
if they said, if you'd beendivorced, y, I weren't married because
they weren't there to get married.So maybe that's why. But because they
hadn't got to the stage, shemight not have even known they'd be married
before. That's true, she mightnot have. I mean, I said,
all she thought was that she'd gotthis job that she was progressing in.
She'd met the man that she fellin love with. They abously bought
a house together, they were planningher future together, and she thought things
(34:29):
were going really well. She hadno reason I guess to suspect that anything
was wrong and absolutely awful, isn'tthat? Yeah? Absolutely, but totally
heartbreaker as well. Oh well forthat, And thanks to all our listeners
for her being here for another week. And we'll see you next time.
See you later. If you'd liketo get in contact with us or follow
(34:50):
us on our social media, weare on Instagram and Twitter at Crime Unscore
Divers Underscore Pod. You can emailus at Crime Underscore Divers Underscore Pod outlook
dot com We're on YouTube and that'sCrindiours podcast and TikTok is also crowndivers podcast.
If you would like to financially supportthe show, you could go to
www dot buymlcoffee dot com slash crimediversand make a one off donation our Patreon's
(35:16):
patreon dot com slash Crowndivers. Wehave three tiers which is a pound,
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