Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:21):
Hello, and welcome to Crime Divers and Laura and I'm
Jil and welcome to today's episode.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello everybody, thanks for joining us once again. So Jill,
where in the world are we? We are in the UK?
And what is the title? Who needs Enemies? Good title?
Shall we diver? Yeah, let's dive in. So Suzanne Capper
was born on the first of September nineteen seventy six
in Manchester, England. Her mum was Elizabeth Dunbar and she
(00:50):
had an older sister called Mischelle. Suzanne and Michelle never
knew their biological father and they were brought up by
their mum and their stepdad, John Capper. So. Susanna was
described as a gentle and easily influenced girl, but she
sort of had trouble making friends. So when she did
make friends, she kind of clung on it. And I'm like,
no matter what, no matter how they trade her. So
(01:14):
I think she probably thought that any kind of friend
was better than no friends. Unfortunate language. I mean, sometimes
it is, sometimes it isn't. I mean, it depends what
kind of friends those are, And in this case the
friends are very nice. And her mum described her as
being very forgiven so you know, some so called friends
would find it easy to basically just walk all over her,
(01:36):
knowing that they could get away with it. Yeah. Her
stepdad described Suzanne as a high spirited, well married girl
who just wanted to be loved. So Suzanna was often
babysat by a woman called Jean Powell since she was
about six years old, and when her mom and dad
her mum and stepdad so he split up in nineteen ninety.
When Suzanne was fourteen, she would spend more and more
(01:57):
time at Jean's house. It was hard on the whole family,
and Suzanne spent time and care for a while before
going to live with her stepdad. Well, Michelle went to
stay at Jean Pearl's house around us time, Suzanne started
skipping school and she was like spend a lot more
time at Jean's. At fifteen, Suzanne started to couch her
(02:21):
friend so sometimes she would stay with her mums, sometimes
her stepdad, sometimes family friends. I don't know why. I'm
not quite sure what the situation was, but when Suzanne
was sixteen, she moved into Jean Pearl's house. Jane was
twenty six or sher ten years old there, so Suzanne's sister,
Michelle had moved out by now, as she had moved
(02:44):
and because she'd lived up at Jean's and she had
moved on with her boyfriend. But the main reason that
she wasn't because she was also a love with her
boyfriend and wanted to move in well, it was the
fact that she was getting uncomfortable with Jean's new friends
who kept coming round, and she described them as evil.
But before she left, she asked Jane if Suzanne could
(03:05):
take her place and have the spare room, which I
thought was a bit Okay, So you're uncomfortable and you'll
call these friends evil, but your sister to go and
stay there, that's that's not Yeah. I find that a
bit strange. But maybe she just thought, well, I don't
like them, but that doesn't mean to she's not going
to like it, and she's obviously felt uncomfortable for a reason.
(03:28):
I'm not sure I would be recommending yeah, and stays there,
but I mean, that's what happens. Who are we to
say that's true? So I'm not surprised she wasn't comfortable
as Jean and her husband Glenn, dealt drugs from the house,
so they would be weighing them out in the kitchen table,
and obviously random people would be coming and going to
(03:50):
buy the drugs. So they were also involved in handling
stolen cars and car parts, and they would have sex parties.
Glenn was a career criminal, had convictions for burglary, theft,
and being drunk and disorderly, and Jane was known in
the local area as being violent, so many residents chose
to give them a wide birth. But they had actually
(04:12):
split up. So what I'm saying her and her husband,
they had actually spit up, but they had remained friendly
and he was a regular visitor to Jane's house, so
he was still and he wasn't living there, but he
was still like deal in the drug conducting his business
from there, so they said. Earlier, Suzanna started skipping school,
and this was because Jane had got her a job
as a cleaner and her insurance of this and was
(04:34):
taking her way. She left Suzanne were just five pounds
a week. Oh my god, that's terrible. Her parents didn't
know about it first and thought she was going to school,
so I didn't understand why they didn't have the child
living with him with the child was still at school,
I was, but I.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Don't knows been circumstances for that.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
But so, but when they did find out, our mum
confronted Jane, but Jane just threatened to burn her house down.
So lovely, Yeah, exactly. So one of the evil friends
that Michelle had referred to was twenty four year old
Bernadette McNeely. She had three children and had moved into
a house just a few doors away from Jane, but
(05:14):
she spent so much time at Jean's that she actually
moved in. So her and Jean would sleep in a
double bed in the dining room and their children slips upstairs.
So there was like six children because they both had
three children each, So this house must have been like
packed to the rafters. Jane, Bernadette, Susanne and six children.
That is a lot. And I did actually google to
(05:36):
see if I could find the house, because like than
the sources and that like you do, actually you can
ride out the address, but I didn't see the point
of writing it down, goes Yeah, but I did google
it to see if I could see how many bedrooms
the house had, but I couldn't find the exact ones.
I think it's a council house, but the houses on
either side of it were bought houses, so you could
(05:57):
see those on right move or whatever. And they both
have two bedrooms, so I'm assured that this one was
the same. It's only a two bedroom TuS, so you
would have six children in one room, Suzanne in another room,
and then Jeane and Bernadette downstairs. That's a bit crap. Yeah,
six children and one bedroom. So Jeane and Bernadette bullied
(06:20):
to that, but she still stayed. And her sister Michelle
said that it wasn't that she was scared of them,
it was that she would do anything for them, and
she pampered their every whim. They were taking her money
from her cleaning job and she would beby sit their
children for free. So basically they were just taking the pits.
And they also made her do all the housework and
just treat her like as skiwy And as we'll see
(06:41):
later on, I'm kind of confused as to why Michelle
said that she wasn't scared of them, because clearly.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
She was scared of them, especially if they're making her
do all that sort of thing that she's just doing that,
I mean, she do that, well, she's said that she
done it just because she wanted them to be her friends.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
But she must have been scared of them, as we'll
get to.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
An elevant and not want to upset them, probably, So
that's probably why.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
She was just doing whatever they wanted to do. But
she was scared exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
I mean, I mean, you might have been scared, like,
oh my god, I'm so scared, but like just nervous
that they might throw you out or not be your
friend or whatever.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
So they would be dealing drugs in the living room,
selling stolen car parts, and sleeping with lots of people
who came up the house for drugs. They're just yeah, lovely.
So one of these being a sixteen year old called
Anthony Dudson. He spent a lot of time there and
eventually started having a sexual relationship with Jane and then
(07:34):
Bernadette as well, right, and then sometime later also Susan.
So he was having sex with all three women in
the house. Lovely I say women. So Dam's only I
mean when she died, she was sixteen, so she could
have been she could have been fifteen at this point,
so I mean the other two were older, Yeah, they
were twitter six and twenty four, so and he was
(07:55):
on sixteen and he's coming out of this house getting
drugs no one and is sleeping with everybody like stud
So another guy that was in the house a lot
was twenty six year old Jeffrey Lee. He had recently
been in prison for burglary, theft and drunken disorderly, just
like Glenn. So they were all they were just all
as bad as each other. He was also a regular
(08:17):
visitor to the house for drugs and started having a
sexual relationship with Jane. And another regular visitor of the
house was Jeane's brother, Clifford Book. I'm not sure if
he was on sex with anybody, would surprise me. Hello,
Michelle and alot. Michelle had said that she's Anne wasn't
scared to Jean and Bernadette. As I said before, I
(08:38):
find it hard to believe because she was often threatened
with violence. Truly, you're anybody's gonna be scared who's threatened
with violence? And one day she went to her mum's
house after being beaten up by Jane, and she asked
to move in, but her mum said that she had
a new boyfriend and he wouldn't allow it.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Really, Oh, come on, I hate that I hate when parents,
like if they get new partners and then they like they're.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
They put their partners before their children.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yeah, you know, she's still a young girl, you know,
said she said, fifteen sixteen whatever. You know, she's needing
her mom. She's obviously went in for help. But I
just couldn't imagine ever turn around and saying that to
my daughter, Like I just would be like.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
No, of course your this is your home, like you
come and stay. And obviously wasn't. Obviously not because when
they're the mom and dad's put up, she wasn't living
with her mom. So maybe that kind of shows us
why she wasn't living with her mom. But I don't
know why she wasn't where dad. I don't know. So
the reason that she had beaten up being beaten up
was because there had been a party at the house
(09:40):
at Jeane's house and they had met a friend of
a friend called Mohammad Yosef, and Suzanne encouraged Jane to
sleep with him, and Jane wasn't interested right, so she
beat Susanna up. She later told the police that she
gave Suzanne quote a good hygien for trying to make
me go with an arab end quote hopefully so a
(10:02):
lot would being a violently basis piece of shit. It
sounds like she was a racist as well. Sounds like
and to me, that's just so, this fifteen, sixteen year
old old girl is encouraging you to sleep with somebody,
and you're beating her up for it like you're twenty six.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Like even if she had tried to sort say or whatever,
you say, no, I'm interested, and that is that.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, it's obviously just an excuse. Yeah. Suzanne told neighbors
that Jean had tied her up and kept her captive
for forty days, but nobody believed her. So whether I
don't know if that was, whether if that was before
or after she'd gone to her mums, I'm not not
quite sure. So after her mum turned her away, Juan, sorry,
(10:46):
it's because it's Suzanne, and Jean came up with Juan,
and Suzanne went back to Jean's. So, in November nineteen
ninety two, Anthony, the sixteen year old guy who was
sleep from everybody contracted, but Clice and Bernadette told him
that he must have gotten them from Suzanne. Oh right, okay,
so the rest of the group all had them as well,
(11:08):
or most of the group, I think, because as we know,
they all slicked with each other, and as far as
I know, Suzanne was only sleeping with Anthony, so it
wouldn't have been hard. It was here past the morning,
but it had to have been one of the other
sleeping with somebody else, or she wasn't sleeping for something else.
I had to be somebody else. Reason to blame. Well, yeah,
as these people were a bunch of bullies, they blamed Shusan,
(11:30):
but Bernardette also blames Juzanne for taking a pink dufficult
that belonged to her and which I'm like, they have
no evidence of this. Maybe she did, we don't know.
Maybe she did steal it, who knows. But while these
people are coming in and out of the house, anybody
could have stole the hat jacket. Why does it have
to be her? Like, why why t I.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Just say, well, somebody stole it, and you know, obviously
I ask everybody. Maybe, but I mean, like, it's not
She was accusing her with no evidence, and so by
this point and turned off, and she actually moved back
to her stepdad's house.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
But on the seventh of December nineteen ninety two, Jean
and Bernadette went to John Capper's house, her stepdad, and
told Suzanne that they were having a party and a
boy that she liked was going to be there. So
they persuaded her to go back to the house of them,
you know, because yeah, they always going to be here.
We'll have a good time. However, there was no boy
and there was no party. That was just a yeah.
(12:26):
So seven days later, which was the fourteenth of December. Oh,
I'm kind of going to tell you that this is
kind of this does actually get a bit graphic this
in case, so from now it'll start to get a
bit graphics. So just to give everybody a warner. Yeah,
So seven days later, which was the fourteenth of December,
(12:47):
a guy called Barry Sutcliffe was driving along a country
road with two of his work colleagues. They were on
their way to work. It was ten past six in
the morning and they saw a naked girl standing on
the side of the road desperately like flagging them down.
As they got closer, they could see that she had
a shaven head and her skin had been burnt off.
(13:08):
Her face was so badly burned that it was described
as featureless. That's how bad it was. Large portions of
her flesh were hanging off in shreds. So the men
got her in the car and the first thing she
said was they burned me. So they drove to the
nearest house and banged on the door to wake up
the residents, who were Michael and Margaret Cook. And as
(13:30):
soon as they asked the door, they were like right,
ranking the phone, poor an ambulace. Margaret said quote. I
instinctively went to put my arms around her, but she
pulled away because she could not bear to be touched.
Her head was shaved, and they were recent, not new
cuts to her head. Her face was almost featureless. Her
hands were red, raw and black at the fingertips. Her
(13:52):
legs were red from top to bottom. She couldn't bear
anything near her legs. And then Michael, her husband, say quote.
Both her hands appeared like ash, her legs were like
raw meat, and her feet appeared to be to be
badly charred. I was struck by how polite the victim was.
She was constantly thanking my wife for her assistance. So
(14:16):
while they were waiting for the ambulance, she kept slipping
in and out of consciousness, but she managed to tell
them that her name was Suzanne Kapper and she was
sixteen years old. She also told them that she had
been held captive for about a week, tortured and injected
with drugs. She said that her captors had drown to
a remote spot, pushed her down an embankment, doused her
(14:38):
in petrol, set her on fire, and left her for dead,
but she had managed to crawl back up the embankment
because they thought was dead and no where they went,
but she managed to crawl back up the bankment stagger
on the lane for about quarter of a mile before
Barry and his colleagues found her, so her organs would
have been shutting down as they were waiting for the ambulance,
(14:59):
and was so dehydrated that she drank six glasses of water,
although Margaret had to hold the glass for her because
of the injuries to her hands. And again she just
kept saying thank you and even managed to smile like
when she was being spoken to. She was just so polite,
but at.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
That moment would be so relieved that she was getting
She obviously got out of well bit of a situation
where she was obviously found people that were helping her
and she was hoping, and.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I think that the kind of person which was she
was just a really polite, well behaved, well mannered person,
you know, because she'd be forgiven we're not being well
mannered and blight being in the stage that she was.
So the ambulance arrived quickly and Suzanne was rushed to hospital.
She struggled to stay awake, but she suffered multiple organ
(15:44):
failure arising from eighty percent of her body being burned.
So as she was drifting away, she did manage to
tell the doctors who her six captors were in the
address of where she had been held. So they were
twenty six year old Gene Pill, twenty four year old
Bernardette McNeely, twenty seven year old Jeffrey Lee, a sixteen
year old Anthony Dudson, that's the ones they were sleeping with,
(16:07):
twenty nine year old Glenn Powell, Jean's husband, an eighteen
year old Clifford Pook who was Jean's brother. So I've
mentioned them all before, and she gave them Jean's address.
So Suzanne then lost consciousness and slipped into a coma.
Her family had been notified and when her mum and
stepdad got there, they didn't even recognize her, so she
(16:28):
was identified by a partial fingerprint from her thumb, which
was the only part of her hand that wasn't severely burnt,
and Suzanne died four days later on the eighteenth of
December nineteen ninety two. That's just, you know, I just
that's actually really horrifically awful, giving she suffered for seven
days she was held captive, and obviously I'm going to
(16:50):
goat to tell you about that, but then four days
of suffering from these injuries is.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Just and not even just mad like her while like
unthinkableut injuries as that's dreadful, that's one of the worst
ones I've heard.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
I just don't understand how humans could do that to
other humans. It's mean, and when you find out what
the reasons were, it's just even more unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
As all people just get so crazy about trivial stuff.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
So I'm I'm assuming.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
It's got nothing that was ever ever worth her experiencing
any of that.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Of course not so. As soon as Suzanne had given
her captus names and Jean's address, which we'll actually go
and it wasn't actually Jean's dress, but we'll get onto that.
So Detective Inspector Peter Waller Greater Magister Place instructured officers
to go to the house and arrest everybody that they
found there. So they forcibly entered the property and apparently
(17:49):
it was discussed and the living room was just covered
in crap. They didn't even have a couch. They had
like stolen car seats instead of a couch. That's what
people would set on. And it was just dirty and
I'm assuring the smelly, you know, And it was just
a place where people would go there and get their
drugs and probably sit there and take their drugs. So
you can have added one what kind of place it
(18:10):
must have been. And luckily for the place, the six
suspects were all there and arrested on spot, so they
all of course denied any involvement, and Gene and Bernadette
were even laughing and joking with each other as they
were arrested. The house was searched and Suzanne's hair was
found in the bin because remember head shaved. They found
(18:34):
pliers with blood on them, and they found Suzanne's two
front teeth. So they were all taken to the PlayStation
and eventually when they were being questioned Anthony Dudson started
to talk. As he was only sixteen, he would add
his dad well, and his dad was obviously just tillatory,
you know. So he told police that no one liked
(18:56):
Suzanne and she was regularly being a bullied by all
six of them. He said that he didn't like her either,
but he had sex with her because he could. He
so basically, he was just taking advantage of our, our
vulnerability and her desire to beloved. He wasn't having a
nice relationship, you know, a nice sexual relationship with her,
(19:17):
which she probably thought it was. He was just taking
advantage of her because she was vulnerable and she needed
she you know, she had desired to be loved, which
is horrendous, absolutely horrendous, absolute And once he started talking,
so did the rest of them. So again, but it's
gonna be a bit graphic, so because I'm going to
(19:38):
tell you what happened. But before that, DII Wall said
that some police officers cried as the extent of Suzanne's
suffering was revealed, and they even had a whip round
send her flowers in the hospital absously before she died.
They were that affected, Like the police officers were crying,
I mean, I must have been, like, you know, police
have to deal with and see a lot of sights
(19:59):
of you know that probably does live with them.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
You know, for a while they can't get their minds,
so especially since they're listening, you know, hearing what's.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Happened to somebody. I mean, they're not emotionless people, so.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
I mean, I'm not surprised if it affects them.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
So first of all, I'm gonna give you the reasons
for the kidnapp Number one, Jane said Suzanne tried to
make her sleep with a man for money. I don't
believe that even if she did, so what, like, you're
your own person. She's sixteen years old, you're twenty six.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
I find it hard that sixteen year old would make
a twenty six year old sleep with someone for money.
I just don't exactly, I just don't see that personally.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Number two, they said that Suzanne gave them all public lice,
which we can't categorical say that. No, but even if
she did, that's not worth killing somebody over.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Of course, you might be a bit you could be
pissed off, but then unfortunately, if you're gonna go and
sleep with the same people, I mean, and you're not
using protection and whatnot exactly.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
I mean, somebody's gonna probably get something. Yeah, And number three,
Bernadette believed that Suzanne had stolen a pink tufflecoat from her,
which I told you about earlier. That is three reasons
why they said that.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Is absolutely possessive, Like that's not even exactly I've got
no words for that really.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
So when Jane and Benadette took Suzanne back to the
house for the so called party, Glynn and Anthony were
there waiting for her. So this is the ex husband
and the sixteen year old. They were waiting for her,
and as soon as Suzanne walked in the front door,
they grabbed her and she was held down while Glynn
shaved her head and her eyebrows, and then they made
her clean up all the hair herself and put it
(21:35):
in the bin and it was still they don't even
bothered to get rid of the evidence, like it was
still there. Glenn then put a plastic bag over Suzanne's
head and he kept like nearly suffocating her, like over
and over again, like he were told, you know, sorry,
they would like should be nearly not being out of breathe.
And then he would like lit her breathe and then
he would do it again, like over that torture, yeah, forture.
(21:58):
And after doing that for a while, he then started
walking like in circles round her, hitting her over the
head and encouraging the others to punch her in the
head as well. So Suzanne was knocked to the ground
and like she curled herself up in a ball and
Jane and Bernadette took turns beating her with a belt
buckle and a one meter long ornamental wooden spoon. The
(22:21):
beating was so severe that one of our arms was
so badly damaged that it just hung down her side
and from that she just couldn't use it from then on.
So this went on for hours, just you know, being
hitting with the wedding spoons and the belt buckle and whatnot.
Then she was marched to the bathroom and instructed to
shave off her own pubic hair. And this was punishment
(22:44):
because the others who had caught lice, they'd had to
shave their pubic hair off. So they're like, right, well,
you have to do it as well, and we're gonna
watch you and you're gonna be humiliate like.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
That's that's humilis, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
So after that, Jane then locked Usanne and a cupboard
under the stairs for the rest of the night. She
was obviously an agony and she was screaming in pain,
and this caused Jane and Bernett's children to become upset
because they could hear her. So in the mornings, Anne
was taking upstairs and locked in another cupboard, but was
then taken out of the house because of the children
(23:20):
being upset, so they moved her to Bernadette's house, which
was empty and just a few doors away, so the
kids wouldn't be able to hear her screaming anymore. And
now that she was in another house, the church had
just got even worse as the group didn't have to
worry about the kids hearing what was going on, which
in one sense it was this kid said really horrible,
(23:41):
But they did that for the kids at least to
kill because imagine these six young children, because Bernardette was
twenty four, Jane was twenty six, so these children must
have been very young children, and they were hearing like
somebody being tortured and some women. I mean, I don't
know if they kne who it was, if they knew
it was who's that or just some somebody screaming in
(24:03):
the cupboard. So for that, I'm got for the children's sake,
come on, grown up, I mean that must be absolutely awful.
I exactly imagine living in that house those children m
and like they see. This is what I don't get
as well. Like beard Bearadett's house was on a few
doors down and it was lying there empty. So why
(24:24):
were they all living in this one house? Why were
her kids not like living in their own house where
they maybe have more room and more space. And it
just does not make sense to me.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
I talk it like you may spend a lot of
time at each other's houses and stuff, but like.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Actually living there and sleeping there, you'd think, well, I'll
just go back to my own house. I would put
my own space, my kids in their bedroom, like fucked
up on drugs and bored to move or something, you know. Yeah,
So she got the chicksus and to Beardet's house. So
Susanna was stripped, naked and tied spready girl to an
(24:58):
upturned bed. They put dirty socks in her mouth to
muffle her schemes, and for the next five days she
was subjected to the most horrific violent acts, which got
worse and worse as time went on. She was regularly beaten,
She was injected with a fetamens and burned with cigarettes. Bernadette,
after injecting herself with herself with a fetmines, she started
(25:21):
calling herself Chucky, after the doll from the Child's play movies.
And she put headphones on Suzanne and she played this.
You'll not have heard it, because I actually had to
look it up. It was it's like rave music by
a group band whatever you call them, by one hundred
and fifty Volks, that's what they're called. And it's called
(25:43):
the song is called I don't call it song. It's
like rave music, but it's called Hi, I'm Chuck. You
want to play? And she would have that over our headphone,
that full volume. Now, as I said, I searched. I
searched YouTube to listen to it because I was like,
what the hell is that? And it's her It's awful.
(26:04):
I'm not gonna play it because it's awful, but having
that played a full volume over and over must have
been absolutely horrendous. And every time Bernardette came into the
room to torture Suzanne, she would say, Chuck is coming
to play. Just it's it's awful, isn't it just an evil,
evil person. I haven't even watched those films, but I
(26:25):
just imagine somebody was, you know, pupped up to the
eyeballs with drugs and saying Chuck is coming to play
the start and torturing you horrendous. So at some point
in those five days, because it said it was only
two of the guys that were there start off with,
it was Glenn and Anthonytte and the two women. But
at some point during those five days, Jean's brother Clifford
(26:46):
and Jeffrey Lee arrived at the house and they hadn't
known ending about the kidnap until until now. And by
now Suzanna had been lying in her own urine, urine
and pieces for a couple of days because obviously there
only and letting her, untiring her, let her what the toilet.
So you would think that maybe they would be like,
what the fuck is going on and they would help her,
(27:08):
but no, they instead of helping the poor girl, they
decided to join in with the torture. And they because
they were like, oh my god, she's stinking, because I
said she was letting her own ext so they decided
to put her in a bath of concentrated disinfectant. But
obviously she'll have wounds, so that will sting, and they
(27:31):
scrubbed her skin with a brush until the skin was
peeling off. That's that's horrible. She was then tied back
to the bed and the beatings continued. That kind of thing.
Does that not defeat the purpose? Because she's clean, you
make sure of that, But what the bed? And that's
(27:54):
kind of we still will us to change it. There
was an upturn bed, so I don't I don't know. Anyway,
she was bound with a cigarette right between her between
her eyes, and then Clifford used pliers to take out
you Suzanne's teeth. So they must actually took the teeth
back because the teeth were found in Jean's house, so
they must change it back. What planet is that? Like?
(28:16):
Can they just do that to someone and think that's
all right? That's horrible?
Speaker 1 (28:20):
As I read this, I kind of think of a
bad enough word for it, because I want to use
the bardest word you could.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Ever have, and that's even if you find that word,
it still wouldn't be bad. And I was like, what
I kind of imagine what that poor girl must have
been going through. That is absolutely horrific. Now, if you've
got a thing about dentists and toothpain, this is gonna
be Oh. I mean I probably like that anyway, but
I have here a dentist like toothache is the worst
(28:47):
pain in the world, just just to just to warn it.
So Anthony told the police about this about taking the
teeth out, and said, quote, I was stood at the
doorway with Jeannie and Bernie Cliff took her gag off.
He told her to open her mouth. He said, right,
I'm gonna rip your teeth out. He started hitting her
teeth with the plyers. He got the pliers and started
(29:09):
pulling them out, but it just snapped and chipped, so
it actually like took a bit of the tooth off
and he was still gone. So you can imagine how
painful that must have been. Then he hit them a
few more times. He put the plyers on again and
like really really pulled. He pulled Chesand's head forward and
there was a snap, and he had the tooth in
the plyers and he did the same again, and he
(29:30):
was laughing. That's awful. Well, I'm just thinking about the
one the tooth that I had out at the dentist
and they put it also put the injection into none
my tooth before taking the tooth out, and I could
still feel it, like as soon as she went to
get the I don't know what to call them, but
(29:51):
we'll call them flyers. I don't know what the dentist
calls them. But as soon as she went to like
pull my tooth, I was like, I can feel that.
Five injections I had to get to no that before
so and I can remember that pain every time she
kept trying to pull that too. Then it turns out
I actually had like twisted roots and stuff, so that
was why it was complicated. But five injections I had
(30:12):
to get to numb the pain. So just feeling that
quick second that we're trying to pull it, I'm actually
getting goosebumps just thinking about her. And that was I
don't know how many years ago. That was maybe about
fifteen years ago or something like that. That happened, and
just honestly, I've come covered in She's also going to
be in a lot of pain all over our body
(30:33):
as well. Other than that, I mean that came that
pain must be unimaginable. As I said, I can remember
what I was like just to have her the dentist,
trying to pull a tooth out, and that to me,
that was really painful. Number and I said, they took
five injections, so to have that happened to you without
any injections and somebody hitting your teeth and snapping them
(30:55):
and it was making you feel funny. I just taed
to that she actually took a bit, which she did
take her to do. She had to keep pulling it
out bit by a bit, because I said, because the
roots were all twisted, so rather than just pulling the tooth,
just pulling it out in a one er, she did
actually have to pull out a few different Yeah, that
was that was the worst experience of the dentist for me.
It was awful. But as this just I just can't
(31:19):
I can't imagine it. I can't imagine any of this.
No to do that to somebody, but apparently I think
he did it because to fuck with the identification. Basically,
like we take the teeth, they can't be identified by
dB record and I think that's also why they later
on they burned her as well, because they're obviously burning fingerprints.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
I don't even think that, like that's awful to even
think that they're obviously they're obviously known at that point, they're.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
They're clearly going to kill this girl, or they're trying
to kill this girl. Well yeah, I mean, like I
was sure it will be a bit. I mean they said,
I mean, what they've said, you can't believe a word
of these people say. But later on they do see
that they they did that. It tells you when they
decided to kill her. But they must have known that
so long for our lesson just saying well, that's why
we did it, because they actually don't have a reason
(32:06):
for why they builder to do it. He just wanted
to do it because he was a cruel, sadistic bastard.
But so yeah, and he was even laughing while it
was doing it. I mean that's so there was actually
an opportunity for Susanna to be rescued, but unfortunately that
didn't happen. This was when an eighteen year old called
(32:27):
David Hill was asked to babysit in the house. He
had no idea what was going on, and he arrived
at the house and he was like, why am I
being asked to babs sit in an empty house because
he didn't know what so that Suzanne was in another bedroom.
But after a while he heard screaming and then Anthony,
and he heard Anthony shout and shut up, you slack,
coming from another room. So he just kind of sat there, like,
(32:50):
what the fuck is going on? And then Anthony came
out of the room. David asked what was going on,
and Anthony laughed and took him to the other room
and showed him Susanne and was told that the reason
they had asked him to the house was to stop
her from escaping when they went out. They were planning
going out, so he was basically babing her so that
(33:10):
she wouldn't escape. So you would think that he would
take that opportunity to help Suzanne, but no, even when
left alone with her, he didn't let her go. And
he later told the place that Suzanne had asked him
for help, but he told her that he couldn't. He
asked her what name was and she told him it
was Susanne. She asked him to untie her, and he
told her that he couldn't do anything. He said he
(33:32):
was too scared of the group to intervene. He said, quote,
I thought they would batter me if I said anything.
They have got me, wouldn't they. I didn't know what
to do. I was too shocked to do anything end quote.
And when the group came back to the house, they
were just left and didn't tell anyone what he had seen.
I mean, I'm not even going to judge that, because
to be, you don't know what it's like to be
(33:54):
in that situation.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
He might have had obviously genuine fear of these people
if they're.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Doing that to her.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yeah, so I can understand why he wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
I mean, it's a shame that people.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Obviously are going to feel that way because he could
have saved her or.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Well at least, and he's going to have to live
with that for the rest of his life. But I
do understand in that moment that it's easier said than that.
Oh yeah, I mean, like you we.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Could sit here and say, well, why didn't he help her,
why didn't he want to police blah blah blah, and
then Kyle's come home. But unless you're in that situation
and you're obviously dealt with these people, then yeah, exactly.
I mean, like you know, I know what the right
thing to do is but actually you don't do that.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
It's not necessarily as simple as just doing that, is it.
So I know that's why I'm saying I can't I
can't judge up for it. I mean, because it is
at all that we can sit here and say like,
why not do this? Why not do that? But and
you have to remember that the whole community knows what
kind of people these these are and they steer well clear,
well clear, so it's known that they're violent and all
(34:55):
the rest of it. The guy probably was petrified. It's
not easy to stand up to people like that. No,
of course, the repercussions and unfortunately that is something that
he has had to live with the fact. So yeah,
we're not no, that's all we're saying on that. So
remember Suzanne's sister Michelle, Well, Jeffrey and Anthony even helped
(35:17):
Michelle's fiancee Paul Barlow fix his car, knowing full well
that Suzanne has been kept in tortured in that house.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
So I just never like, they're not going to say it.
Well shows the people there that they could just go
about their lives and interact with people and not you know,
have this horrible secret that they're obviously keep it.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Paul later said, quote, they could have told me there
and then the door would have been kicked down and
I would have got Susanna. I did not think they
were capable of such savagery. Now all I want is
ten minutes with them in the back room quote, and
to know that he was actually with them, and there's
not be done because it is didn't mention it.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
I mean I said they were never going to mention
it because of us. Say, why would why would why
would they tell exactly?
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Of course the dogs started to snore there. Yes, Lily
is cuddled into Laura right now, she's sitting on her
and yeah, she's always a bit too comfortable, but she's
starting to snore, so she starts snoring. She gets some
poked Lily. So by now the group had decided that
(36:25):
Suzanne wasn't going to get out of this alive. So
they said, they're only saying now they had heard that
her family were going to report her missing. So yeah,
because nobody had been able to nobody had seen her,
nobody had been out of get in contact with her,
and they were starting to get worried. So they knew
that the place would become looking at their houses, obviously
Bernadett's and jeans houses, because so that Suzanne had been
(36:47):
living at Jean's, so they thought the best thing she
was killer and dispose of the body. So in the
early hours of the fourteenth of December nineteen ninety two,
Suzanne was taking out of the house and forced into
the boot of a stone car. Jean, Glynn, Anthony and
Bernadette were all in the car and they drove fifteen
miles away to Narrow Lane on the outskirts of Stockport,
(37:08):
and apparently Bernadette was giggling the whole way. I don't
even know how you can. You must be seriously fucking evil.
Put your face on drugs, your face on drugs. But
I just, I just I have no words. So Suzanne
was then pushed down the embankment and she lands on
a patch of brambles and Bernadette poured petrol on her.
(37:29):
She then tried to set Suzanne on fire, but she
couldn't get the petrol technite, so Glynn and Anthony also
tried a few times before eventually they were successful, I believe.
When Suzanne was now dead, the group made their way
back to Jean's House singing the song Burn Baby, Burn
Disco Inferno by the Tramps, you know what I mean, Yeah,
(37:51):
and disbelieve of it. That's I know, just are the
most evil of evil or evil just.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I mean, I mean, I know we obviously, you know,
doing a true crime podcast, we've obviously heard a lot
of evil, evil.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Stories over the few years that we've been doing IS,
but this has to actually be up there with one
of the worst that I think I've heard. I think
probably along with Kelly am Bates, she was the one
who goes tortured by our so called I mean, that's
up there. Yeah, I think, I think because these ones
(38:29):
seem the worst. I mean, they're all bad, of course,
but I think these ones seemed worse because they're being held,
they're being tortured, whereas if somebody was just to shoot
somebody or it's over and done with. Alwa's absolute her
end is to take anybody's life. The fact that this is,
it's the torture and the thought process behind it, thinking
that people could actually for a prolonged enjoy that.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
And I mean not that you know, of course, you
don't want anybody to die or anything from these injury,
but I mean, it's.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Awful, wasn't it. So they assumed that Suzanne's body would
be so badly burned that she wouldn't be identified and
they wouldn't get caught. But as we know, Suzanne managed
to get help and named her killers. So all six
of them were charged with the kidnapping, false imprisonment, torture,
and murder of Suzanne Kapper. The trial started on the
sixteenth of November nineteen ninety three and lasted twenty two days.
(39:24):
They all pleaded not guilty to murder, and of course
they all tried to minimize their own part in the
crime and were sort of like blaming each other. Yeah,
the jury took just under ten hours to reach their verdicts.
So I'll tell you what each one got. So Bernadette McNeely,
Jane Pill, and Glenn Pill were all found guilty of murder,
conspiracy to cause grievous bodily harm, and false imprisonment and
(39:50):
they were sent us to life with a minimum of
twenty five years. Jeffrey Lee pleaded guilty to false imprisonment,
but he was acquitted of murder and say to create
to cause previous bodily harm, and he was sent us
to twelve years. Anthony Dudson was filled guilty of murder,
conspiracy to cause grevious bodily harm, and false imprisonment and
(40:12):
he was detained and definitely with a minimum tariff of
eighteen years. Covered Pook pleaded guilty to conspiracy to cause
grievous bodily harm and false imprisonment and he was acquitted
of murder and he was sentenced to fifteen years. So
they've all been released now, Oh shit, because that was
quite because it was nineteen ninety two, well nine nine
(40:33):
ninet two when it happened to say that.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Personally, I don't think what sences were long enough for that.
I think they should have been life should have been.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Life for them, so that life should be a life
forever hand if he has for all any kind of
murder of JASM. But I mean, yeah, that was thirty
years ago, so they're all so they'll all be out
of prison thirty one years ago. Actually yeah, because that
was in nineteen ninety two when they got pro Yeah.
Well they're all like, yeah, they're all like. But when
Bernadette was at HM and Durham, a routine security check
(41:03):
found letters which were real that she was over an
affair with the married prison governor Mike Martin. He resigned
before disciplinary action could be taken. And she'd been actually
sharing a ring a ring, not a ring a wing
in the prison with Rose West and Myra Hindley, but
she was immediately transferred to another prism. And even though
(41:26):
this is a really horrendous case, it was actually overshadowed
in the media at the time because James Bulger was
murdered two months after Susanne, so it was totally overshadowed.
It didn't get the attention that she would have got
because of James Bulger. And for anybody who doesn't know,
James Bulger was a two was a two two year old. Yeah,
(41:47):
he was a little boy that was lured away from
his mum by to ten eleven year old and he
was murdered. So that was obviously that was major news.
Every but he was talking about the media was all
over that. And if anybody does, if anyone doesn't know
the James Bulger case, I'm really sorry, but you're gonna
(42:09):
have to look up yourself because that is one case
I will not do it. I know we covered the
I mean this one was the most that was read,
but I think everybody, even like true crime hosts, I
think they always have that one, that one case that
they will not cover. And I actually have two that
won't cover, and that's James Bulger and you know the
(42:29):
other one, mad One McCann.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yes, that's just an endless rabbit hole of theories and yeah,
the Mad One McCann.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
I have opinions on that, And it wouldn't be responsible
of me to do an episode on Mad One mccan
because I wouldn't be able to say I wouldn't be
able to stay sort of neutral and say that I
have my thoughts. So that one's too. You can be
here for hours going on.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
I say, you could just go down a rabble is
an endless thing, and I think that's I've been down
a rabbit hole years ago. I've been down a rabbit
I mean, I researched that case just for my own Yeah,
obviously information that I want to find out about it.
And I mean, honestly, I don't have, like I haven't
made up a full opinion either way, because I can
see it from one people's perspective, but I can all
(43:20):
see it from an others. So I just I can't
come to any kind of conclusion on that one personally,
because it's just there's just so many bits.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
I mean, we could have done that for for our
mysterious but as I said, I end up argument, No,
I don't like that. It's just I don't think it
would be responsible of us too, because I wouldn't, as
I said, I'd be pushing my opinions on the other people,
which but other people don't have that about and so exactly,
and that's not what we're about. That's what it's called
the facts and stuff and try to stay neutral and things.
(43:48):
And I don't want to get done for slander, whether
there's that there. Yeah, So I'm James Bulger. The details
that I do know about the case are just to
her render us to that. I just couldn't. I couldn't,
I couldn't research that. I don't. The only stuff that
I know about that case is basically from you know,
(44:08):
the odd but like obviously from when it happened and
then the odd. But I've never listened to a podcast
about it. I think I watched a documentary once, but
I'm not. I think there's even details that not even
the public that haven't released.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
In details of that I mean, obviously I know the
basics of what happened in that case, but I've never
really had a deep cave because I mean, obviously it's
just such a young child, and I just yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
And it was committed by children as well. I think
that makes it a lot worse because you like, you
know that adults, you know that adults are capable of
this kind of stuff, but for a child to.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Be capable of that, I think that children are all
innocent and in the sense of, like, you never expect
another child to kill another child that.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
They are, so yeah, I mean, and what they did
to him apparently was horrendous. And as I said, the
couple of details that I do know, I don't I
don't want to go any further. That's that's enough that
it just makes me no. So yeah, but I mean,
if anybody does, I'm sure there's plenty podcasts, but I
think actually I read somewhere that James Bulger's mum had
actually asked people to stop talking about it. Yeah, you know,
(45:24):
stop people like doing documentaries and podcasts and blogs and
all that. I think she was just like, just leave
it now. It is, you know, because it did happen obviously,
back in ninety ninety yeah, thirty one years ago now.
But yeah, so anyway that has said that that that
is why Suzanne's case was. It was kind of overlooked
in the media just because of what happened to a
(45:46):
little jams. So yeah, I said, like they're all out now,
all living their lives, and because's ane. Oh yeah, really
she got absolute tortured to sixteen year old child. Yeah,
because that's how which was an adults. She was still
a young girl.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
And I mean the worst thing she did was enforced
that she got in involved with a terrible crowd of people.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
And they took total advantage of that.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
And for some sick and twisted reason there they've done
that turn and yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
And give ship fucking reasons for it. That's still there's
never any good reason for it. They could never be
a reason for murdering somebody and to tort or something
like that, and then let's say throw them down in
their bankment and set fire to them. I mean, that
is the lowest of the low.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
I mean, to me, they should never should even be
out for prison, they should even be living.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
Their lives right now. I mean, whether they should have
been in there for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
Exactly because they don't deserve to be walking the streets,
really living their.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Lives now, when that poor girl you know.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
But say barely sixteen, had a whole life ahead of her, you.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
Know, could have hopefully.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
Made better choice seson and and made better friendships and stuff,
and she even got a chance to that because it's
some evil, sick, twisted fucking animals.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
There's just no words that are bad enough, all the
words I want to say, but it still not doesn't.
There are no words bad enough for what, for those people,
and for what happened. So anyway, enough of our ranting. Yes,
so yep, that's that's a stunt for today, and we'll
see you next time.
Hello, and welcome to Crime Divers and Laura and I'm
Jil and welcome to today's episode.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello everybody, thanks for joining us once again. So Jill,
where in the world are we? We are in the UK?
And what is the title? Who needs Enemies? Good title?
Shall we diver? Yeah, let's dive in. So Suzanne Capper
was born on the first of September nineteen seventy six
in Manchester, England. Her mum was Elizabeth Dunbar and she
(00:50):
had an older sister called Mischelle. Suzanne and Michelle never
knew their biological father and they were brought up by
their mum and their stepdad, John Capper. So. Susanna was
described as a gentle and easily influenced girl, but she
sort of had trouble making friends. So when she did
make friends, she kind of clung on it. And I'm like,
no matter what, no matter how they trade her. So
(01:14):
I think she probably thought that any kind of friend
was better than no friends. Unfortunate language. I mean, sometimes
it is, sometimes it isn't. I mean, it depends what
kind of friends those are, And in this case the
friends are very nice. And her mum described her as
being very forgiven so you know, some so called friends
would find it easy to basically just walk all over her,
(01:36):
knowing that they could get away with it. Yeah. Her
stepdad described Suzanne as a high spirited, well married girl
who just wanted to be loved. So Suzanna was often
babysat by a woman called Jean Powell since she was
about six years old, and when her mom and dad
her mum and stepdad so he split up in nineteen ninety.
When Suzanne was fourteen, she would spend more and more
(01:57):
time at Jean's house. It was hard on the whole family,
and Suzanne spent time and care for a while before
going to live with her stepdad. Well, Michelle went to
stay at Jean Pearl's house around us time, Suzanne started
skipping school and she was like spend a lot more
time at Jean's. At fifteen, Suzanne started to couch her
(02:21):
friend so sometimes she would stay with her mums, sometimes
her stepdad, sometimes family friends. I don't know why. I'm
not quite sure what the situation was, but when Suzanne
was sixteen, she moved into Jean Pearl's house. Jane was
twenty six or sher ten years old there, so Suzanne's sister,
Michelle had moved out by now, as she had moved
(02:44):
and because she'd lived up at Jean's and she had
moved on with her boyfriend. But the main reason that
she wasn't because she was also a love with her
boyfriend and wanted to move in well, it was the
fact that she was getting uncomfortable with Jean's new friends
who kept coming round, and she described them as evil.
But before she left, she asked Jane if Suzanne could
(03:05):
take her place and have the spare room, which I
thought was a bit Okay, So you're uncomfortable and you'll
call these friends evil, but your sister to go and
stay there, that's that's not Yeah. I find that a
bit strange. But maybe she just thought, well, I don't
like them, but that doesn't mean to she's not going
to like it, and she's obviously felt uncomfortable for a reason.
(03:28):
I'm not sure I would be recommending yeah, and stays there,
but I mean, that's what happens. Who are we to
say that's true? So I'm not surprised she wasn't comfortable
as Jean and her husband Glenn, dealt drugs from the house,
so they would be weighing them out in the kitchen table,
and obviously random people would be coming and going to
(03:50):
buy the drugs. So they were also involved in handling
stolen cars and car parts, and they would have sex parties.
Glenn was a career criminal, had convictions for burglary, theft,
and being drunk and disorderly, and Jane was known in
the local area as being violent, so many residents chose
to give them a wide birth. But they had actually
(04:12):
split up. So what I'm saying her and her husband,
they had actually spit up, but they had remained friendly
and he was a regular visitor to Jane's house, so
he was still and he wasn't living there, but he
was still like deal in the drug conducting his business
from there, so they said. Earlier, Suzanna started skipping school,
and this was because Jane had got her a job
as a cleaner and her insurance of this and was
(04:34):
taking her way. She left Suzanne were just five pounds
a week. Oh my god, that's terrible. Her parents didn't
know about it first and thought she was going to school,
so I didn't understand why they didn't have the child
living with him with the child was still at school,
I was, but I.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Don't knows been circumstances for that.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
But so, but when they did find out, our mum
confronted Jane, but Jane just threatened to burn her house down.
So lovely, Yeah, exactly. So one of the evil friends
that Michelle had referred to was twenty four year old
Bernadette McNeely. She had three children and had moved into
a house just a few doors away from Jane, but
(05:14):
she spent so much time at Jean's that she actually
moved in. So her and Jean would sleep in a
double bed in the dining room and their children slips upstairs.
So there was like six children because they both had
three children each, So this house must have been like
packed to the rafters. Jane, Bernadette, Susanne and six children.
That is a lot. And I did actually google to
(05:36):
see if I could find the house, because like than
the sources and that like you do, actually you can
ride out the address, but I didn't see the point
of writing it down, goes Yeah, but I did google
it to see if I could see how many bedrooms
the house had, but I couldn't find the exact ones.
I think it's a council house, but the houses on
either side of it were bought houses, so you could
(05:57):
see those on right move or whatever. And they both
have two bedrooms, so I'm assured that this one was
the same. It's only a two bedroom TuS, so you
would have six children in one room, Suzanne in another room,
and then Jeane and Bernadette downstairs. That's a bit crap. Yeah,
six children and one bedroom. So Jeane and Bernadette bullied
(06:20):
to that, but she still stayed. And her sister Michelle
said that it wasn't that she was scared of them,
it was that she would do anything for them, and
she pampered their every whim. They were taking her money
from her cleaning job and she would beby sit their
children for free. So basically they were just taking the pits.
And they also made her do all the housework and
just treat her like as skiwy And as we'll see
(06:41):
later on, I'm kind of confused as to why Michelle
said that she wasn't scared of them, because clearly.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
She was scared of them, especially if they're making her
do all that sort of thing that she's just doing that,
I mean, she do that, well, she's said that she
done it just because she wanted them to be her friends.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
But she must have been scared of them, as we'll
get to.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
An elevant and not want to upset them, probably, So
that's probably why.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
She was just doing whatever they wanted to do. But
she was scared exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
I mean, I mean, you might have been scared, like,
oh my god, I'm so scared, but like just nervous
that they might throw you out or not be your
friend or whatever.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
So they would be dealing drugs in the living room,
selling stolen car parts, and sleeping with lots of people
who came up the house for drugs. They're just yeah, lovely.
So one of these being a sixteen year old called
Anthony Dudson. He spent a lot of time there and
eventually started having a sexual relationship with Jane and then
(07:34):
Bernadette as well, right, and then sometime later also Susan.
So he was having sex with all three women in
the house. Lovely I say women. So Dam's only I
mean when she died, she was sixteen, so she could
have been she could have been fifteen at this point,
so I mean the other two were older, Yeah, they
were twitter six and twenty four, so and he was
(07:55):
on sixteen and he's coming out of this house getting
drugs no one and is sleeping with everybody like stud
So another guy that was in the house a lot
was twenty six year old Jeffrey Lee. He had recently
been in prison for burglary, theft and drunken disorderly, just
like Glenn. So they were all they were just all
as bad as each other. He was also a regular
(08:17):
visitor to the house for drugs and started having a
sexual relationship with Jane. And another regular visitor of the
house was Jeane's brother, Clifford Book. I'm not sure if
he was on sex with anybody, would surprise me. Hello,
Michelle and alot. Michelle had said that she's Anne wasn't
scared to Jean and Bernadette. As I said before, I
(08:38):
find it hard to believe because she was often threatened
with violence. Truly, you're anybody's gonna be scared who's threatened
with violence? And one day she went to her mum's
house after being beaten up by Jane, and she asked
to move in, but her mum said that she had
a new boyfriend and he wouldn't allow it.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Really, Oh, come on, I hate that I hate when parents,
like if they get new partners and then they like they're.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
They put their partners before their children.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yeah, you know, she's still a young girl, you know,
said she said, fifteen sixteen whatever. You know, she's needing
her mom. She's obviously went in for help. But I
just couldn't imagine ever turn around and saying that to
my daughter, Like I just would be like.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
No, of course your this is your home, like you
come and stay. And obviously wasn't. Obviously not because when
they're the mom and dad's put up, she wasn't living
with her mom. So maybe that kind of shows us
why she wasn't living with her mom. But I don't
know why she wasn't where dad. I don't know. So
the reason that she had beaten up being beaten up
was because there had been a party at the house
(09:40):
at Jeane's house and they had met a friend of
a friend called Mohammad Yosef, and Suzanne encouraged Jane to
sleep with him, and Jane wasn't interested right, so she
beat Susanna up. She later told the police that she
gave Suzanne quote a good hygien for trying to make
me go with an arab end quote hopefully so a
(10:02):
lot would being a violently basis piece of shit. It
sounds like she was a racist as well. Sounds like
and to me, that's just so, this fifteen, sixteen year
old old girl is encouraging you to sleep with somebody,
and you're beating her up for it like you're twenty six.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Like even if she had tried to sort say or whatever,
you say, no, I'm interested, and that is that.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, it's obviously just an excuse. Yeah. Suzanne told neighbors
that Jean had tied her up and kept her captive
for forty days, but nobody believed her. So whether I
don't know if that was, whether if that was before
or after she'd gone to her mums, I'm not not
quite sure. So after her mum turned her away, Juan, sorry,
(10:46):
it's because it's Suzanne, and Jean came up with Juan,
and Suzanne went back to Jean's. So, in November nineteen
ninety two, Anthony, the sixteen year old guy who was
sleep from everybody contracted, but Clice and Bernadette told him
that he must have gotten them from Suzanne. Oh right, okay,
so the rest of the group all had them as well,
(11:08):
or most of the group, I think, because as we know,
they all slicked with each other, and as far as
I know, Suzanne was only sleeping with Anthony, so it
wouldn't have been hard. It was here past the morning,
but it had to have been one of the other
sleeping with somebody else, or she wasn't sleeping for something else.
I had to be somebody else. Reason to blame. Well, yeah,
as these people were a bunch of bullies, they blamed Shusan,
(11:30):
but Bernardette also blames Juzanne for taking a pink dufficult
that belonged to her and which I'm like, they have
no evidence of this. Maybe she did, we don't know.
Maybe she did steal it, who knows. But while these
people are coming in and out of the house, anybody
could have stole the hat jacket. Why does it have
to be her? Like, why why t I.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Just say, well, somebody stole it, and you know, obviously
I ask everybody. Maybe, but I mean, like, it's not
She was accusing her with no evidence, and so by
this point and turned off, and she actually moved back
to her stepdad's house.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
But on the seventh of December nineteen ninety two, Jean
and Bernadette went to John Capper's house, her stepdad, and
told Suzanne that they were having a party and a
boy that she liked was going to be there. So
they persuaded her to go back to the house of them,
you know, because yeah, they always going to be here.
We'll have a good time. However, there was no boy
and there was no party. That was just a yeah.
(12:26):
So seven days later, which was the fourteenth of December. Oh,
I'm kind of going to tell you that this is
kind of this does actually get a bit graphic this
in case, so from now it'll start to get a
bit graphics. So just to give everybody a warner. Yeah,
So seven days later, which was the fourteenth of December,
(12:47):
a guy called Barry Sutcliffe was driving along a country
road with two of his work colleagues. They were on
their way to work. It was ten past six in
the morning and they saw a naked girl standing on
the side of the road desperately like flagging them down.
As they got closer, they could see that she had
a shaven head and her skin had been burnt off.
(13:08):
Her face was so badly burned that it was described
as featureless. That's how bad it was. Large portions of
her flesh were hanging off in shreds. So the men
got her in the car and the first thing she
said was they burned me. So they drove to the
nearest house and banged on the door to wake up
the residents, who were Michael and Margaret Cook. And as
(13:30):
soon as they asked the door, they were like right,
ranking the phone, poor an ambulace. Margaret said quote. I
instinctively went to put my arms around her, but she
pulled away because she could not bear to be touched.
Her head was shaved, and they were recent, not new
cuts to her head. Her face was almost featureless. Her
hands were red, raw and black at the fingertips. Her
(13:52):
legs were red from top to bottom. She couldn't bear
anything near her legs. And then Michael, her husband, say quote.
Both her hands appeared like ash, her legs were like
raw meat, and her feet appeared to be to be
badly charred. I was struck by how polite the victim was.
She was constantly thanking my wife for her assistance. So
(14:16):
while they were waiting for the ambulance, she kept slipping
in and out of consciousness, but she managed to tell
them that her name was Suzanne Kapper and she was
sixteen years old. She also told them that she had
been held captive for about a week, tortured and injected
with drugs. She said that her captors had drown to
a remote spot, pushed her down an embankment, doused her
(14:38):
in petrol, set her on fire, and left her for dead,
but she had managed to crawl back up the embankment
because they thought was dead and no where they went,
but she managed to crawl back up the bankment stagger
on the lane for about quarter of a mile before
Barry and his colleagues found her, so her organs would
have been shutting down as they were waiting for the ambulance,
(14:59):
and was so dehydrated that she drank six glasses of water,
although Margaret had to hold the glass for her because
of the injuries to her hands. And again she just
kept saying thank you and even managed to smile like
when she was being spoken to. She was just so polite,
but at.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
That moment would be so relieved that she was getting
She obviously got out of well bit of a situation
where she was obviously found people that were helping her
and she was hoping, and.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I think that the kind of person which was she
was just a really polite, well behaved, well mannered person,
you know, because she'd be forgiven we're not being well
mannered and blight being in the stage that she was.
So the ambulance arrived quickly and Suzanne was rushed to hospital.
She struggled to stay awake, but she suffered multiple organ
(15:44):
failure arising from eighty percent of her body being burned.
So as she was drifting away, she did manage to
tell the doctors who her six captors were in the
address of where she had been held. So they were
twenty six year old Gene Pill, twenty four year old
Bernardette McNeely, twenty seven year old Jeffrey Lee, a sixteen
year old Anthony Dudson, that's the ones they were sleeping with,
(16:07):
twenty nine year old Glenn Powell, Jean's husband, an eighteen
year old Clifford Pook who was Jean's brother. So I've
mentioned them all before, and she gave them Jean's address.
So Suzanne then lost consciousness and slipped into a coma.
Her family had been notified and when her mum and
stepdad got there, they didn't even recognize her, so she
(16:28):
was identified by a partial fingerprint from her thumb, which
was the only part of her hand that wasn't severely burnt,
and Suzanne died four days later on the eighteenth of
December nineteen ninety two. That's just, you know, I just
that's actually really horrifically awful, giving she suffered for seven
days she was held captive, and obviously I'm going to
(16:50):
goat to tell you about that, but then four days
of suffering from these injuries is.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Just and not even just mad like her while like
unthinkableut injuries as that's dreadful, that's one of the worst
ones I've heard.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
I just don't understand how humans could do that to
other humans. It's mean, and when you find out what
the reasons were, it's just even more unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
As all people just get so crazy about trivial stuff.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
So I'm I'm assuming.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
It's got nothing that was ever ever worth her experiencing
any of that.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Of course not so. As soon as Suzanne had given
her captus names and Jean's address, which we'll actually go
and it wasn't actually Jean's dress, but we'll get onto that.
So Detective Inspector Peter Waller Greater Magister Place instructured officers
to go to the house and arrest everybody that they
found there. So they forcibly entered the property and apparently
(17:49):
it was discussed and the living room was just covered
in crap. They didn't even have a couch. They had
like stolen car seats instead of a couch. That's what
people would set on. And it was just dirty and
I'm assuring the smelly, you know, And it was just
a place where people would go there and get their
drugs and probably sit there and take their drugs. So
you can have added one what kind of place it
(18:10):
must have been. And luckily for the place, the six
suspects were all there and arrested on spot, so they
all of course denied any involvement, and Gene and Bernadette
were even laughing and joking with each other as they
were arrested. The house was searched and Suzanne's hair was
found in the bin because remember head shaved. They found
(18:34):
pliers with blood on them, and they found Suzanne's two
front teeth. So they were all taken to the PlayStation
and eventually when they were being questioned Anthony Dudson started
to talk. As he was only sixteen, he would add
his dad well, and his dad was obviously just tillatory,
you know. So he told police that no one liked
(18:56):
Suzanne and she was regularly being a bullied by all
six of them. He said that he didn't like her either,
but he had sex with her because he could. He
so basically, he was just taking advantage of our, our
vulnerability and her desire to beloved. He wasn't having a
nice relationship, you know, a nice sexual relationship with her,
(19:17):
which she probably thought it was. He was just taking
advantage of her because she was vulnerable and she needed
she you know, she had desired to be loved, which
is horrendous, absolutely horrendous, absolute And once he started talking,
so did the rest of them. So again, but it's
gonna be a bit graphic, so because I'm going to
(19:38):
tell you what happened. But before that, DII Wall said
that some police officers cried as the extent of Suzanne's
suffering was revealed, and they even had a whip round
send her flowers in the hospital absously before she died.
They were that affected, Like the police officers were crying,
I mean, I must have been, like, you know, police
have to deal with and see a lot of sights
(19:59):
of you know that probably does live with them.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
You know, for a while they can't get their minds,
so especially since they're listening, you know, hearing what's.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Happened to somebody. I mean, they're not emotionless people, so.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
I mean, I'm not surprised if it affects them.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
So first of all, I'm gonna give you the reasons
for the kidnapp Number one, Jane said Suzanne tried to
make her sleep with a man for money. I don't
believe that even if she did, so what, like, you're
your own person. She's sixteen years old, you're twenty six.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
I find it hard that sixteen year old would make
a twenty six year old sleep with someone for money.
I just don't exactly, I just don't see that personally.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Number two, they said that Suzanne gave them all public lice,
which we can't categorical say that. No, but even if
she did, that's not worth killing somebody over.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Of course, you might be a bit you could be
pissed off, but then unfortunately, if you're gonna go and
sleep with the same people, I mean, and you're not
using protection and whatnot exactly.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
I mean, somebody's gonna probably get something. Yeah, And number three,
Bernadette believed that Suzanne had stolen a pink tufflecoat from her,
which I told you about earlier. That is three reasons
why they said that.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Is absolutely possessive, Like that's not even exactly I've got
no words for that really.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
So when Jane and Benadette took Suzanne back to the
house for the so called party, Glynn and Anthony were
there waiting for her. So this is the ex husband
and the sixteen year old. They were waiting for her,
and as soon as Suzanne walked in the front door,
they grabbed her and she was held down while Glynn
shaved her head and her eyebrows, and then they made
her clean up all the hair herself and put it
(21:35):
in the bin and it was still they don't even
bothered to get rid of the evidence, like it was
still there. Glenn then put a plastic bag over Suzanne's
head and he kept like nearly suffocating her, like over
and over again, like he were told, you know, sorry,
they would like should be nearly not being out of breathe.
And then he would like lit her breathe and then
he would do it again, like over that torture, yeah, forture.
(21:58):
And after doing that for a while, he then started
walking like in circles round her, hitting her over the
head and encouraging the others to punch her in the
head as well. So Suzanne was knocked to the ground
and like she curled herself up in a ball and
Jane and Bernadette took turns beating her with a belt
buckle and a one meter long ornamental wooden spoon. The
(22:21):
beating was so severe that one of our arms was
so badly damaged that it just hung down her side
and from that she just couldn't use it from then on.
So this went on for hours, just you know, being
hitting with the wedding spoons and the belt buckle and whatnot.
Then she was marched to the bathroom and instructed to
shave off her own pubic hair. And this was punishment
(22:44):
because the others who had caught lice, they'd had to
shave their pubic hair off. So they're like, right, well,
you have to do it as well, and we're gonna
watch you and you're gonna be humiliate like.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
That's that's humilis, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
So after that, Jane then locked Usanne and a cupboard
under the stairs for the rest of the night. She
was obviously an agony and she was screaming in pain,
and this caused Jane and Bernett's children to become upset
because they could hear her. So in the mornings, Anne
was taking upstairs and locked in another cupboard, but was
then taken out of the house because of the children
(23:20):
being upset, so they moved her to Bernadette's house, which
was empty and just a few doors away, so the
kids wouldn't be able to hear her screaming anymore. And
now that she was in another house, the church had
just got even worse as the group didn't have to
worry about the kids hearing what was going on, which
in one sense it was this kid said really horrible,
(23:41):
But they did that for the kids at least to
kill because imagine these six young children, because Bernardette was
twenty four, Jane was twenty six, so these children must
have been very young children, and they were hearing like
somebody being tortured and some women. I mean, I don't
know if they kne who it was, if they knew
it was who's that or just some somebody screaming in
(24:03):
the cupboard. So for that, I'm got for the children's sake,
come on, grown up, I mean that must be absolutely awful.
I exactly imagine living in that house those children m
and like they see. This is what I don't get
as well. Like beard Bearadett's house was on a few
doors down and it was lying there empty. So why
(24:24):
were they all living in this one house? Why were
her kids not like living in their own house where
they maybe have more room and more space. And it
just does not make sense to me.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
I talk it like you may spend a lot of
time at each other's houses and stuff, but like.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Actually living there and sleeping there, you'd think, well, I'll
just go back to my own house. I would put
my own space, my kids in their bedroom, like fucked
up on drugs and bored to move or something, you know. Yeah,
So she got the chicksus and to Beardet's house. So
Susanna was stripped, naked and tied spready girl to an
(24:58):
upturned bed. They put dirty socks in her mouth to
muffle her schemes, and for the next five days she
was subjected to the most horrific violent acts, which got
worse and worse as time went on. She was regularly beaten,
She was injected with a fetamens and burned with cigarettes. Bernadette,
after injecting herself with herself with a fetmines, she started
(25:21):
calling herself Chucky, after the doll from the Child's play movies.
And she put headphones on Suzanne and she played this.
You'll not have heard it, because I actually had to
look it up. It was it's like rave music by
a group band whatever you call them, by one hundred
and fifty Volks, that's what they're called. And it's called
(25:43):
the song is called I don't call it song. It's
like rave music, but it's called Hi, I'm Chuck. You
want to play? And she would have that over our headphone,
that full volume. Now, as I said, I searched. I
searched YouTube to listen to it because I was like,
what the hell is that? And it's her It's awful.
(26:04):
I'm not gonna play it because it's awful, but having
that played a full volume over and over must have
been absolutely horrendous. And every time Bernardette came into the
room to torture Suzanne, she would say, Chuck is coming
to play. Just it's it's awful, isn't it just an evil,
evil person. I haven't even watched those films, but I
(26:25):
just imagine somebody was, you know, pupped up to the
eyeballs with drugs and saying Chuck is coming to play
the start and torturing you horrendous. So at some point
in those five days, because it said it was only
two of the guys that were there start off with,
it was Glenn and Anthonytte and the two women. But
at some point during those five days, Jean's brother Clifford
(26:46):
and Jeffrey Lee arrived at the house and they hadn't
known ending about the kidnap until until now. And by
now Suzanna had been lying in her own urine, urine
and pieces for a couple of days because obviously there
only and letting her, untiring her, let her what the toilet.
So you would think that maybe they would be like,
what the fuck is going on and they would help her,
(27:08):
but no, they instead of helping the poor girl, they
decided to join in with the torture. And they because
they were like, oh my god, she's stinking, because I
said she was letting her own ext so they decided
to put her in a bath of concentrated disinfectant. But
obviously she'll have wounds, so that will sting, and they
(27:31):
scrubbed her skin with a brush until the skin was
peeling off. That's that's horrible. She was then tied back
to the bed and the beatings continued. That kind of thing.
Does that not defeat the purpose? Because she's clean, you
make sure of that, But what the bed? And that's
(27:54):
kind of we still will us to change it. There
was an upturn bed, so I don't I don't know. Anyway,
she was bound with a cigarette right between her between
her eyes, and then Clifford used pliers to take out
you Suzanne's teeth. So they must actually took the teeth
back because the teeth were found in Jean's house, so
they must change it back. What planet is that? Like?
(28:16):
Can they just do that to someone and think that's
all right? That's horrible?
Speaker 1 (28:20):
As I read this, I kind of think of a
bad enough word for it, because I want to use
the bardest word you could.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Ever have, and that's even if you find that word,
it still wouldn't be bad. And I was like, what
I kind of imagine what that poor girl must have
been going through. That is absolutely horrific. Now, if you've
got a thing about dentists and toothpain, this is gonna
be Oh. I mean I probably like that anyway, but
I have here a dentist like toothache is the worst
(28:47):
pain in the world, just just to just to warn it.
So Anthony told the police about this about taking the
teeth out, and said, quote, I was stood at the
doorway with Jeannie and Bernie Cliff took her gag off.
He told her to open her mouth. He said, right,
I'm gonna rip your teeth out. He started hitting her
teeth with the plyers. He got the pliers and started
(29:09):
pulling them out, but it just snapped and chipped, so
it actually like took a bit of the tooth off
and he was still gone. So you can imagine how
painful that must have been. Then he hit them a
few more times. He put the plyers on again and
like really really pulled. He pulled Chesand's head forward and
there was a snap, and he had the tooth in
the plyers and he did the same again, and he
(29:30):
was laughing. That's awful. Well, I'm just thinking about the
one the tooth that I had out at the dentist
and they put it also put the injection into none
my tooth before taking the tooth out, and I could
still feel it, like as soon as she went to
get the I don't know what to call them, but
(29:51):
we'll call them flyers. I don't know what the dentist
calls them. But as soon as she went to like
pull my tooth, I was like, I can feel that.
Five injections I had to get to no that before
so and I can remember that pain every time she
kept trying to pull that too. Then it turns out
I actually had like twisted roots and stuff, so that
was why it was complicated. But five injections I had
(30:12):
to get to numb the pain. So just feeling that
quick second that we're trying to pull it, I'm actually
getting goosebumps just thinking about her. And that was I
don't know how many years ago. That was maybe about
fifteen years ago or something like that. That happened, and
just honestly, I've come covered in She's also going to
be in a lot of pain all over our body
(30:33):
as well. Other than that, I mean that came that
pain must be unimaginable. As I said, I can remember
what I was like just to have her the dentist,
trying to pull a tooth out, and that to me,
that was really painful. Number and I said, they took
five injections, so to have that happened to you without
any injections and somebody hitting your teeth and snapping them
(30:55):
and it was making you feel funny. I just taed
to that she actually took a bit, which she did
take her to do. She had to keep pulling it
out bit by a bit, because I said, because the
roots were all twisted, so rather than just pulling the tooth,
just pulling it out in a one er, she did
actually have to pull out a few different Yeah, that
was that was the worst experience of the dentist for me.
It was awful. But as this just I just can't
(31:19):
I can't imagine it. I can't imagine any of this.
No to do that to somebody, but apparently I think
he did it because to fuck with the identification. Basically,
like we take the teeth, they can't be identified by
dB record and I think that's also why they later
on they burned her as well, because they're obviously burning fingerprints.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
I don't even think that, like that's awful to even
think that they're obviously they're obviously known at that point, they're.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
They're clearly going to kill this girl, or they're trying
to kill this girl. Well yeah, I mean, like I
was sure it will be a bit. I mean they said,
I mean, what they've said, you can't believe a word
of these people say. But later on they do see
that they they did that. It tells you when they
decided to kill her. But they must have known that
so long for our lesson just saying well, that's why
we did it, because they actually don't have a reason
(32:06):
for why they builder to do it. He just wanted
to do it because he was a cruel, sadistic bastard.
But so yeah, and he was even laughing while it
was doing it. I mean that's so there was actually
an opportunity for Susanna to be rescued, but unfortunately that
didn't happen. This was when an eighteen year old called
(32:27):
David Hill was asked to babysit in the house. He
had no idea what was going on, and he arrived
at the house and he was like, why am I
being asked to babs sit in an empty house because
he didn't know what so that Suzanne was in another bedroom.
But after a while he heard screaming and then Anthony,
and he heard Anthony shout and shut up, you slack,
coming from another room. So he just kind of sat there, like,
(32:50):
what the fuck is going on? And then Anthony came
out of the room. David asked what was going on,
and Anthony laughed and took him to the other room
and showed him Susanne and was told that the reason
they had asked him to the house was to stop
her from escaping when they went out. They were planning
going out, so he was basically babing her so that
(33:10):
she wouldn't escape. So you would think that he would
take that opportunity to help Suzanne, but no, even when
left alone with her, he didn't let her go. And
he later told the place that Suzanne had asked him
for help, but he told her that he couldn't. He
asked her what name was and she told him it
was Susanne. She asked him to untie her, and he
told her that he couldn't do anything. He said he
(33:32):
was too scared of the group to intervene. He said, quote,
I thought they would batter me if I said anything.
They have got me, wouldn't they. I didn't know what
to do. I was too shocked to do anything end quote.
And when the group came back to the house, they
were just left and didn't tell anyone what he had seen.
I mean, I'm not even going to judge that, because
to be, you don't know what it's like to be
(33:54):
in that situation.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
He might have had obviously genuine fear of these people
if they're.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Doing that to her.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yeah, so I can understand why he wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
I mean, it's a shame that people.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Obviously are going to feel that way because he could
have saved her or.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Well at least, and he's going to have to live
with that for the rest of his life. But I
do understand in that moment that it's easier said than that.
Oh yeah, I mean, like you we.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Could sit here and say, well, why didn't he help her,
why didn't he want to police blah blah blah, and
then Kyle's come home. But unless you're in that situation
and you're obviously dealt with these people, then yeah, exactly.
I mean, like you know, I know what the right
thing to do is but actually you don't do that.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
It's not necessarily as simple as just doing that, is it.
So I know that's why I'm saying I can't I
can't judge up for it. I mean, because it is
at all that we can sit here and say like,
why not do this? Why not do that? But and
you have to remember that the whole community knows what
kind of people these these are and they steer well clear,
well clear, so it's known that they're violent and all
(34:55):
the rest of it. The guy probably was petrified. It's
not easy to stand up to people like that. No,
of course, the repercussions and unfortunately that is something that
he has had to live with the fact. So yeah,
we're not no, that's all we're saying on that. So
remember Suzanne's sister Michelle, Well, Jeffrey and Anthony even helped
(35:17):
Michelle's fiancee Paul Barlow fix his car, knowing full well
that Suzanne has been kept in tortured in that house.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
So I just never like, they're not going to say it.
Well shows the people there that they could just go
about their lives and interact with people and not you know,
have this horrible secret that they're obviously keep it.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Paul later said, quote, they could have told me there
and then the door would have been kicked down and
I would have got Susanna. I did not think they
were capable of such savagery. Now all I want is
ten minutes with them in the back room quote, and
to know that he was actually with them, and there's
not be done because it is didn't mention it.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
I mean I said they were never going to mention
it because of us. Say, why would why would why
would they tell exactly?
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Of course the dogs started to snore there. Yes, Lily
is cuddled into Laura right now, she's sitting on her
and yeah, she's always a bit too comfortable, but she's
starting to snore, so she starts snoring. She gets some
poked Lily. So by now the group had decided that
(36:25):
Suzanne wasn't going to get out of this alive. So
they said, they're only saying now they had heard that
her family were going to report her missing. So yeah,
because nobody had been able to nobody had seen her,
nobody had been out of get in contact with her,
and they were starting to get worried. So they knew
that the place would become looking at their houses, obviously
Bernadett's and jeans houses, because so that Suzanne had been
(36:47):
living at Jean's, so they thought the best thing she
was killer and dispose of the body. So in the
early hours of the fourteenth of December nineteen ninety two,
Suzanne was taking out of the house and forced into
the boot of a stone car. Jean, Glynn, Anthony and
Bernadette were all in the car and they drove fifteen
miles away to Narrow Lane on the outskirts of Stockport,
(37:08):
and apparently Bernadette was giggling the whole way. I don't
even know how you can. You must be seriously fucking evil.
Put your face on drugs, your face on drugs. But
I just, I just I have no words. So Suzanne
was then pushed down the embankment and she lands on
a patch of brambles and Bernadette poured petrol on her.
(37:29):
She then tried to set Suzanne on fire, but she
couldn't get the petrol technite, so Glynn and Anthony also
tried a few times before eventually they were successful, I believe.
When Suzanne was now dead, the group made their way
back to Jean's House singing the song Burn Baby, Burn
Disco Inferno by the Tramps, you know what I mean, Yeah,
(37:51):
and disbelieve of it. That's I know, just are the
most evil of evil or evil just.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I mean, I mean, I know we obviously, you know,
doing a true crime podcast, we've obviously heard a lot
of evil, evil.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Stories over the few years that we've been doing IS,
but this has to actually be up there with one
of the worst that I think I've heard. I think
probably along with Kelly am Bates, she was the one
who goes tortured by our so called I mean, that's
up there. Yeah, I think, I think because these ones
(38:29):
seem the worst. I mean, they're all bad, of course,
but I think these ones seemed worse because they're being held,
they're being tortured, whereas if somebody was just to shoot
somebody or it's over and done with. Alwa's absolute her
end is to take anybody's life. The fact that this is,
it's the torture and the thought process behind it, thinking
that people could actually for a prolonged enjoy that.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
And I mean not that you know, of course, you
don't want anybody to die or anything from these injury,
but I mean, it's.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Awful, wasn't it. So they assumed that Suzanne's body would
be so badly burned that she wouldn't be identified and
they wouldn't get caught. But as we know, Suzanne managed
to get help and named her killers. So all six
of them were charged with the kidnapping, false imprisonment, torture,
and murder of Suzanne Kapper. The trial started on the
sixteenth of November nineteen ninety three and lasted twenty two days.
(39:24):
They all pleaded not guilty to murder, and of course
they all tried to minimize their own part in the
crime and were sort of like blaming each other. Yeah,
the jury took just under ten hours to reach their verdicts.
So I'll tell you what each one got. So Bernadette McNeely,
Jane Pill, and Glenn Pill were all found guilty of murder,
conspiracy to cause grievous bodily harm, and false imprisonment and
(39:50):
they were sent us to life with a minimum of
twenty five years. Jeffrey Lee pleaded guilty to false imprisonment,
but he was acquitted of murder and say to create
to cause previous bodily harm, and he was sent us
to twelve years. Anthony Dudson was filled guilty of murder,
conspiracy to cause grevious bodily harm, and false imprisonment and
(40:12):
he was detained and definitely with a minimum tariff of
eighteen years. Covered Pook pleaded guilty to conspiracy to cause
grievous bodily harm and false imprisonment and he was acquitted
of murder and he was sentenced to fifteen years. So
they've all been released now, Oh shit, because that was
quite because it was nineteen ninety two, well nine nine
(40:33):
ninet two when it happened to say that.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Personally, I don't think what sences were long enough for that.
I think they should have been life should have been.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Life for them, so that life should be a life
forever hand if he has for all any kind of
murder of JASM. But I mean, yeah, that was thirty
years ago, so they're all so they'll all be out
of prison thirty one years ago. Actually yeah, because that
was in nineteen ninety two when they got pro Yeah.
Well they're all like, yeah, they're all like. But when
Bernadette was at HM and Durham, a routine security check
(41:03):
found letters which were real that she was over an
affair with the married prison governor Mike Martin. He resigned
before disciplinary action could be taken. And she'd been actually
sharing a ring a ring, not a ring a wing
in the prison with Rose West and Myra Hindley, but
she was immediately transferred to another prism. And even though
(41:26):
this is a really horrendous case, it was actually overshadowed
in the media at the time because James Bulger was
murdered two months after Susanne, so it was totally overshadowed.
It didn't get the attention that she would have got
because of James Bulger. And for anybody who doesn't know,
James Bulger was a two was a two two year old. Yeah,
(41:47):
he was a little boy that was lured away from
his mum by to ten eleven year old and he
was murdered. So that was obviously that was major news.
Every but he was talking about the media was all
over that. And if anybody does, if anyone doesn't know
the James Bulger case, I'm really sorry, but you're gonna
(42:09):
have to look up yourself because that is one case
I will not do it. I know we covered the
I mean this one was the most that was read,
but I think everybody, even like true crime hosts, I
think they always have that one, that one case that
they will not cover. And I actually have two that
won't cover, and that's James Bulger and you know the
(42:29):
other one, mad One McCann.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yes, that's just an endless rabbit hole of theories and yeah,
the Mad One McCann.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
I have opinions on that, And it wouldn't be responsible
of me to do an episode on Mad One mccan
because I wouldn't be able to say I wouldn't be
able to stay sort of neutral and say that I
have my thoughts. So that one's too. You can be
here for hours going on.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
I say, you could just go down a rabble is
an endless thing, and I think that's I've been down
a rabbit hole years ago. I've been down a rabbit
I mean, I researched that case just for my own Yeah,
obviously information that I want to find out about it.
And I mean, honestly, I don't have, like I haven't
made up a full opinion either way, because I can
see it from one people's perspective, but I can all
(43:20):
see it from an others. So I just I can't
come to any kind of conclusion on that one personally,
because it's just there's just so many bits.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
I mean, we could have done that for for our
mysterious but as I said, I end up argument, No,
I don't like that. It's just I don't think it
would be responsible of us too, because I wouldn't, as
I said, I'd be pushing my opinions on the other people,
which but other people don't have that about and so exactly,
and that's not what we're about. That's what it's called
the facts and stuff and try to stay neutral and things.
(43:48):
And I don't want to get done for slander, whether
there's that there. Yeah, So I'm James Bulger. The details
that I do know about the case are just to
her render us to that. I just couldn't. I couldn't,
I couldn't research that. I don't. The only stuff that
I know about that case is basically from you know,
(44:08):
the odd but like obviously from when it happened and
then the odd. But I've never listened to a podcast
about it. I think I watched a documentary once, but
I'm not. I think there's even details that not even
the public that haven't released.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
In details of that I mean, obviously I know the
basics of what happened in that case, but I've never
really had a deep cave because I mean, obviously it's
just such a young child, and I just yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
And it was committed by children as well. I think
that makes it a lot worse because you like, you
know that adults, you know that adults are capable of
this kind of stuff, but for a child to.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Be capable of that, I think that children are all
innocent and in the sense of, like, you never expect
another child to kill another child that.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
They are, so yeah, I mean, and what they did
to him apparently was horrendous. And as I said, the
couple of details that I do know, I don't I
don't want to go any further. That's that's enough that
it just makes me no. So yeah, but I mean,
if anybody does, I'm sure there's plenty podcasts, but I
think actually I read somewhere that James Bulger's mum had
actually asked people to stop talking about it. Yeah, you know,
(45:24):
stop people like doing documentaries and podcasts and blogs and
all that. I think she was just like, just leave
it now. It is, you know, because it did happen obviously,
back in ninety ninety yeah, thirty one years ago now.
But yeah, so anyway that has said that that that
is why Suzanne's case was. It was kind of overlooked
in the media just because of what happened to a
(45:46):
little jams. So yeah, I said, like they're all out now,
all living their lives, and because's ane. Oh yeah, really
she got absolute tortured to sixteen year old child. Yeah,
because that's how which was an adults. She was still
a young girl.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
And I mean the worst thing she did was enforced
that she got in involved with a terrible crowd of people.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
And they took total advantage of that.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
And for some sick and twisted reason there they've done
that turn and yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
And give ship fucking reasons for it. That's still there's
never any good reason for it. They could never be
a reason for murdering somebody and to tort or something
like that, and then let's say throw them down in
their bankment and set fire to them. I mean, that
is the lowest of the low.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
I mean, to me, they should never should even be
out for prison, they should even be living.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
Their lives right now. I mean, whether they should have
been in there for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
Exactly because they don't deserve to be walking the streets,
really living their.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Lives now, when that poor girl you know.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
But say barely sixteen, had a whole life ahead of her, you.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
Know, could have hopefully.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
Made better choice seson and and made better friendships and stuff,
and she even got a chance to that because it's
some evil, sick, twisted fucking animals.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
There's just no words that are bad enough, all the
words I want to say, but it still not doesn't.
There are no words bad enough for what, for those people,
and for what happened. So anyway, enough of our ranting. Yes,
so yep, that's that's a stunt for today, and we'll
see you next time.
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