Maurice, Martha, Louis, Jennie, and Betty Sodder - The Sodder Children

A Christmas Eve house fire devastates a large prominent family in Fayetteville, West Virginia when The Sodder Family fears some of their children never made it out.

But an odd series of events forces them to rethink the events of that night and makes them wonder if their children may still be out there somewhere. 

This week, we're drinking Da Vinci's Chianti.


SOURCES: https://www.crimeoverwine.com/post/episode-64-the-sodder-children


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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
A Christmas Eve fire separates a family in West Virginia
and changes their lives forever. But are the Solder Children
really gone? Episode sixty four of Crime over Wine starts
right now. Hello everybody, and welcome to this week's episode
of Crime over Wine, the only podcast with head scratching

(00:23):
true crime stories that are just better over a bottle
of wine. I'm your host, Liam Collins, and this week
my guest co host is bringing it back all the
way to episode two of this podcast. My guest co
host is Liz Bates In. Hello, Liz, how are you hello?

Speaker 2 (00:41):
I am honored to be back. I know, I cannot
believe it's been what a year and.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
A half since we last did this.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yeah, just about a year and a half. You were
again one of my very first guests because I remember
I very much distinctly remember blasting out to like everyone
who I knew, who like even would remotely be interested,
and you texted back like right away, Liz, like yes, sign.

Speaker 3 (00:59):
Me, sign me up wine and crime are like I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
In yeah, who would turn it down? Right? And so yeah?
So I like so, Liz, we did the Mary We
Research case, and so I every once in a while,
like you know, I'll just be like going about my
life and then like mayor Resul pop into my head
and I'll be like, yes, what how did that happen?

Speaker 4 (01:22):
What?

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Like?

Speaker 1 (01:23):
So anyway, so you've had like a year and a
half to marry Nate on this, what do you think happened?

Speaker 2 (01:28):
The aliens took her, that's the only logical response.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Same, it has to be the aliens, it has to
be I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
And it's so funny, like the same thing she'll randomly
pop into my head. I never thought I would think
about a combusting woman.

Speaker 3 (01:46):
What was she like?

Speaker 2 (01:47):
She was an elderly woman that yeah, her body just gone.

Speaker 3 (01:52):
I don't know, I really have no idea.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
Yeah, well and again, so so go listen to episode
two because we talked so much, we like intensely in
depth about this woman and just the bizarre, bizarre circumstances
surrounding the way that she died. So go check her
out again. Episode two. You can hear Liz and I
talk for a whole hour together, and who wouldn't want
to listen to that? And we're all over a bottle

(02:17):
of wine, and so let's do that all over again, Liz, Right,
why not Round two?

Speaker 3 (02:21):
Why not? I'm so in Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
So this week we are drinking Da Vinci's Kianti. It's
expertly crafted crimson red with intense aromas of ripe fruit
and hints of fresh strawberry and plum. And so, you know,
I was just, you know, when I saw this, this
bottle on the shelf, Liz, I was really like, I
don't think I have had a Kianti on this podcast yet.

(02:45):
I really don't think so want. I just don't understand
how that happened.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
It's so good, and I'm I'll be honest with you,
I'm not normally a red wine girl. I usually like
stick with the white wines or like Jose, but this
is very good.

Speaker 3 (02:58):
It's because it's not too bitter.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
I'm trying to convert you. I'll leave that.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yeah, you're trying to span my horizons.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
To be honest, though, like I feel I feel more
adult drinking of red wine.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
I'm grateful for you.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
Oh. To be clear, That's the only reason I drink
it because I feel so much more mature and I
feel like a very person than when I'm drinking you know,
like you know, sweet wines or whatever. To be fair,
to be clear that it's not true for everyone listening
to this thinking I'm a fraud. In that moment, I
love it. That's the only kind of wine I will
ever drink.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
Really, how do you pick your wines? I was wondering
that for the podcast or in general, Yeah, for the
podcast because I like coming on this podcast, or just
listening because you expand my horizon on wine because I
never want to kick this one out.

Speaker 3 (03:41):
But it's actually really good.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah, I love that. So yeah, So Kia, I was
going to say, I feel like you probably actually would
like this one because Kanti's are a little bit sweeter, Liz,
like they're actually like they it makes sense. But yeah,
so I I just honestly like, this is going to
sound really lame, Liz, but I look at the bottle
and I was like, okay, and like on a honestly,
I wish I had a better explanation for how I
pick it out on the podcast, but I really was

(04:04):
just like, I've never done this one before, I might
as well try. And I try to of course, like
like shake it up. So if I do like a
rose one week, like I'll do like a red the
next week, and then a white the next week or whatever.
So I try to I try to shake it up
that way, but honestly, I wish there was more of
a logical explanation beyond just this looks this looks good
and I also love I do try to like match
it to the person who I know is coming on

(04:25):
the podcast as well. Specifically, if I know that somebody
is like really like like you know, digging their heels
in on a type of wine, like I will pick
out like the complete opposite, just to like just to
let them, like you know, expand their horizons a little
bit more, or if but but if I also know
that that that you know, whoever is on is just
like I prefers sweeter wines, and like I'll pick out

(04:46):
a sweeter wine just that way, like everyone's happier, you know.

Speaker 3 (04:49):
Love it. I love it. I'm the same way, like
if the bottle looks cool, I'll pick it up. Yeah,
cheers to that. I'll drink to that.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
Cheers cheers so much here. Thanks so much for coming back, Liz.
I so appreciate you, and Liz, I was just telling
you right before we started recording the episode that I
have for you this week. I hope did you buy
two bottles by chance, because I really actually think you're
gonna need it, because we there's just like so much
to unpack here. There's so much, there's so much mystery

(05:16):
going on in this episode. And I was just telling you,
like every time I would like research one thing and
be like okay, cool, like I think I got this,
Like I would find something totally different and that would
just bring me down a totally different rabbit hole. And
I I just feel like we're in this one for
the long haul. So buckle in, Liz, because to myself

(05:38):
got and so last time, Liz, so we talked about
the Mary research case, the spontaneous sleep and combusting woman
absolutely obsessed over that one. Well, this week, I want
to tell you about a family whose life was also
turned around by a bizarre fire. This week, Liz, I
want to tell you about Maurice, Martha Lewis, Jenny and

(06:00):
Betty Sowder. The Solder children, George and Jenny Sowder had
been doing well for themselves. They were raising a big

(06:21):
family in Fayetteville, West Virginia. They were Italian immigrants, got
married almost right away and had since started up a
pretty well off, albeit small coal trucking business, and the
family had settled into a pretty nice living situation as well.
They were living pretty comfortably and had developed a pretty
good reputation in rapport with their neighbors in this really

(06:42):
nice neighborhood. And how could this family not stick out?
George and Jenny had raised ten kids together, and almost
all of them were living in this home. There was John,
who was twenty three, Then there was Joe who was
twenty one and had enlisted in the army and was
living away from home at the time. And then there
was seventeen year old Marion, sixteen year old George Junior,

(07:04):
fourteen year old Maurice, twelve year old Martha Lee, nine
year old Lewis, eight year old Jenny, five year old Betty,
and two year old Sylvia.

Speaker 3 (07:12):
Who take a breath after that. That's a lot of children, I.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
Know, yeah, I yeah, yeah. Serious to talk about full house,
I mean this is like giving like the Tanner family,
like all over again, but like times two. So they
had a house big enough for all twelve of them
to live comfortably. Five of the kids shared two bedrooms
upstairs in the attic, and the rest of the kids
lived on the main floors of the home along with

(07:38):
George and Jenny on December twenty third, nineteen forty five.
Joe had actually just been discharged from his service and
was coming back home just in time for the holiday.
George and two out of three of the oldest boys,
John and George Junior, spent the day working at the
coal trucking business and came home and went to sleep
early in the bedroom in the attict where there were

(07:59):
two bedrooms against you by five of the kids. The
rest of the kids had bedrooms in the main floors
in the home. Around ten thirty that night, Jenny took
Sylvia to bed and gave Maurice, Louis, Martha, Lee, Jenny,
and Betty permission to stay up a bit later to
play with some of the toys they had just received
for Christmas, with the discrepancy that Maurice and Louis should
feed the cows and the chickens that they had on

(08:21):
the property.

Speaker 3 (08:22):
Okay, so I got it. I'm following.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
That's a lot of children, and I'm still not past
that part fully, but I guess this is what yours this.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yeah, oh, I will go Yeah, it's right. Baby boomer
generation one hundred percent. You're definitely right about that for sure.
And like again, so just to like kind of get
back into like where we're at in this, you know,
in this whole entire situation. Right, So there's you know,
John and George Junior, who are two of the three oldest.
There's Joe, who's who's out of you know, out serving
in the military. And then there are there's Marion, there's Maurice,

(08:53):
there's Lewis, there's Martha, Lee, Jenny and Betty. And Maurice Lewis, Martha, Lee,
Jenny and Betty were all you know, staying downstairs and
you know, and they all kind of like were scattered
around the house in terms of some of them were
like living in the attic, some of them were living
in other sides of the bedroom. But again just to
kind of like juxtapose like where we're at in this
whole story and like in this exact moment, because it

(09:14):
gets to be really important. So John and George Junior
had already went to bed, George Senior had already went
to bed, and then there's Maurice Lewis, Martha, Lee, Jenny,
and Betty who stayed downstairs while Jenny took Sylvia to bed.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
Following that we are I'm like closing my eyes sipping
my wine right now, following it all like trying to
paint the image of my mind.

Speaker 3 (09:35):
But I got it perfect, laid that out beautifully.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
Thank you, and again it's all It all comes back around.
We will come back to this whole situation, but just
very important to kind of get your mental you know,
picture in your mind for sure. And so because just
after midnight, well after George Senior and Jenny had dozed
off to bed and December twenty third had turned into
December twenty fourth, Christmas Eve, the phone rang in the
middle of the night. Jenny got up and went to

(10:00):
George's office, which was connected to their bedroom, to answer it,
and on the other end of the line was a
woman's voice who was interestingly asking for a man whose
name Jenny said she didn't necessarily recognize. Jenny informed the
woman that she just had the wrong number, and Jenny
said that the woman let out this really strange laugh,

(10:21):
but in a way that just kind of stuck with her, Liz,
and then the woman just hung up.

Speaker 3 (10:27):
Oh that gives me like it makes me feel weird.
I just know bad things are coming right.

Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yeah. I mean obviously we wouldn't be talking about this
on this podcast if bad things didn't end up happening.
But yeah, and again like I like this, I picked
maybe this is just you know, thinking about this in hindsight,
like you're saying, Liz, but going thinking back to that
moment of just this woman saying this weird thing, laughing
in this weird way and then just hanging up. It

(10:57):
just it gives me chills. Like I was literally righting
lives and I was getting chills all over again because
it just again I knew what ended up happening. And
now yeah, so it's just strange vibes.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yes, and like being an eight year old, like the
day after Christmas and it's like or into Christmas e
even it's the middle of the night. And like I
remember growing up with like the landlines and the phone.
Nowadays it's like just telemarketers. But like I couldn't imagine
being an eight year old answering the phone to that.

Speaker 1 (11:27):
So this is so to be clear, this is Jenny
the mom.

Speaker 3 (11:29):
Just to be clear, Oh, because there's Jenny the kid.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
Right yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. Again, very very confusing,
all different types of names. But yeah, so this is Jenny. Yeah,
so Jenny the mom gets up and there is Jenny,
an eight year old. But Jenny, Jenny the mom gets
up in the middle of the night to this phone call.
But still even to your tort still lives, still just
as creepy, even if you know, whether you're forty eight
or eight or however the mom was.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
Either way, you don't want to be picking up that
phone call, right.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
Right, Yeah, no, just weird feelings all around. But you know,
Jenny ended up, you know, just dismissing this odd phone calls,
probably just a prank. But while she was up, she
interestingly noticed that the lights were on in the living
room where the kids had been playing earlier that night.
She went out, saw that Marian had fell asleep on
the couch, seventeen year old Marian, and noticed not only

(12:18):
just that, but also that the shades weren't drawn on
the windows and the doors weren't locked either, which were
all things that the kids almost always knew to do
on their way to bed. But Jenny just dismissed this too,
as just being something that her kids had just simply
forgotten to take care of after, you know, finishing up
playing for the night. You know, kids are gonna be kids,
And so she closed the curtains, turned out the lights herself,

(12:40):
and just went back to sleep. But then about thirty
minutes later, Jenny was woken up again for a second
time to what sounded like something being thrown onto the
rooflets Jenny hears that object roll off the roof and
then onto the ground, but again she dismissed this as
maybe just like a squirrel or something like that. I

(13:00):
don't know, but and she just ends up going right
back to sleep again.

Speaker 2 (13:04):
Children get off the roof. That's what's going through mine
right now, Like save these kids. I know there's something
happening with the kids.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah right, well yeah again, like I don't know, this
would not be my reaction just to be like Crystal clear,
especially after that phone call. But but I'm also again
like crime mind, Like you know, I you know, hear
like a twig snap outside and I immediately think I'm
getting murdered. Right, So maybe Jenny's just like not that girl,
But it seems it just seems like there's just so

(13:34):
many too many weird things happening, like all back to
back to back to just like keep going back to sleep,
but again we.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
Weren't there so right, Like, if I walk downstairs in
the whole, all my doors are unlocked, the windows are open.

Speaker 3 (13:47):
I got a creepy phone call. I'm not going back.

Speaker 1 (13:49):
To sleep, right, No, no shot, no no shot in hell?
But you know again. About thirty minutes later, Liz Jenny
was woken up again one last time that night, only
this time it was to the smell of smoke that
had filled the room. She immediately jumped out of bed
and ran to her husband's office to get the phone
so she could call for help. But when she ripped

(14:10):
the door open, she was met with flames that were
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(15:14):
ten percent off your first month. Join over four million
people who decided to get help and get happy with
Better Help. Jenny yelled for her husband to wake up,
and yelled for any child that could hear her to
get downstairs and out of the house. Jenny tried to

(15:35):
dial for help, but the line was dead. George Senior
and Jenny got out of the room and saw John
and George Junior running down the stairs, their hair singed
by the flames in the process as their parents ushered
them out of the home. Jenny had grabbed two year
old Sylvia and found seventeen year old Marian and pulled
them out of the home as well, so when the
six family members were outside of the home, screaming for

(15:57):
the other five children they knew to be inside of
the house to get out, they realized that the rest
of the kids were not coming out at all. George
Senior took matters into his own hands when he broke
a window and scaled a wall to get back inside
of the house, slicing the skin on his arm in
the process. But when he got through the window, all

(16:17):
he saw was flames and assumed that the rest of
the kids must be upstairs just cowering with fear. As
the staircase of their home was just engulfed in flames.
George jumped from the window and decided to get a
ladder that was always propped up against the house to
get to the second floor so that he could get
the kids down, But the ladder was nowhere inside either,

(16:38):
so he had the idea to drive one of his
two coal trucks up against the house so that he
could climb on top of it and reach the windows
of the top floor. But neither of the two trucks
would start, which was odd because they had both just
worked just fine when he and the boys were using
it for work the day before. George even tried to

(16:58):
scoop water from a rain barrel to start putting the
fire out himself while firefighters came, but the rain barrel
was frozen solid from the dead of winter.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
Ooh, it's just like one thing after another that is terrifying.
I can't even imagine being caught in a house fire, like, oh,
you just feel for them.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah. Well, and like again, so going back and going
back to what you're saying about, like you know, everything
that was passed back back, like I like at the
time too, like you have to just think that. It's
like man, like what like nothing is going right, Like
I'm just trying to get this blah blah blah blah blah.
But then it's like, you know, I'm writing this and
I'm like, that's odd, like all these things that like,
you know, it should be working that aren't. Like I

(17:38):
am raising an eyebra about that, for sure.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yes, I'm like whoever set fire to this house or
whatever happened, But that's my initial theory right now, like
had every box checked of like they thought through every
possible scenario, right how not to get the family out
of this.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
House, every possible one. You're definitely right about that. And
in the meantime, Marian had run to a neighbor's house
to get their help and calling for firefighters, but they
couldn't get through to an operator. At the same time,
another neighbor had already seen the fire and called it
in as well, but they too couldn't get through to
an operator. Finally, a neighbor drove into town and to

(18:15):
find the town's fire chief themselves, and they did. The
chief started getting your crew together to respond to the fire,
but in the meantime it was just simply far too late.
Back at the Solders home, the roof had collapsed into
the house, destroying it and reducing the family home to
ash and George and Jenny still believed that their five
kids were still inside of the house, trying to get

(18:37):
out and needing their help.

Speaker 3 (18:39):
Oh my gosh, that's a parent's first nightmare.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
Yeah, and so so and kind of like I always,
you know, whenever, because I feel like I do a
lot of these older cases, Liz and like I and
so again, we're in nineteen forty five when this office
is happening, and I feel like it's just funny how
I'm like in the and with the benefit of hindsight,
I'm like, I can't imagine calling nine one one today
and not being able to get through to some way

(19:03):
to come help, you know, at any time of day.
And so it's like it just kind of like reminds
me that, like it definitely wasn't always like that, you
know what I mean, Like nine one one didn't even
exist back in nineteen forty five, and so the idea
of like of like having to call somebody like you
have to either like know you're your you know, local
firefighter's number, or like get through to an operator like

(19:24):
like clearly they weren't working twenty four to seven like
they do now, you know. So it's just it's just
crazy to me, crazy think how how things, how times
have changed and just you know, you know what eighty
years or whatever that is.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
I barely know my husband's phone number, like because everything's
like everything's at your fingertips, you don't need to know,
but like these people had to know all their.

Speaker 3 (19:43):
Neighbor's numbers to call for help.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
And then can you imagine your house is burning down
that and you think or your kids may be inside
and you have to go find the fire department yourself,
Like it's insane, right.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, And again I go back to the fact that
like like the like all these groups that people had
to jump through, and like this person like talk about
a small town that this person just like knew the
fire chief and just could just like drive into town
and just like go find him in the morning. Yeah
yeah right, Like again, like that would never happen today,
you know, certainly, I mean maybe in a smaller town,

(20:16):
but definitely not in Chattanooga or you know who do
you love Providence?

Speaker 3 (20:20):
Yeah? Rand okay, yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:22):
So anyways, so so yeah, so, so point being, it's
it feels very like like quintessential kind of thing, you
know what I mean for sure, But also so I
you know, I feel like I need to reemphasize this
again because I told you that we would talk a
lot a lot about like where all these kids are
for sure, and so like going back to to to

(20:42):
the children, right, and so we have we're missing at
this point Maurice, Martha, Lee, Lewis, Jenny, and Betty, and
so those were also like let's keep in mind, like
those were the five kids that were allowed to stay
up that night and like stay in the in the
first floor, and so those are the only kids that
like didn't go to bed when everyone else had gone
to bed, and so like again my like conspiracy, your

(21:04):
brain's like running rampant on that front. But it's just
like and like the last that anyone knew they were
was in that first floor like in the living room,
and so where where are they? Like I don't know,
I just have I like it's just odd to me,
Like I just feel like I just feel like that
needs to be emphasized as all.

Speaker 2 (21:23):
No, I'm glad you said that because I was trying
to think of my head how many kids are missing
right now and the fact that there are all the
kids that were on the first floor and the windows
were open and the doors were un locked, like it
just makes me feel like they were kidnapped at this
point in the story.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
Well and again like like going back to like it
like in the moment, it could just feel like like
you know, all these things that like you know that
you don't even have time to to to you know,
put together in your brain. You know, if you're if
you're Jenny, you're in George George Senior, They're just like
all a bunch of like weird stuff that like I'm
sure like once your brain has calmed down, then you
put together. But definitely not in the moment when you're like,

(21:59):
where my kids. I could make kids be in there.
Just there's just a lot, there's a lot to go
through your head. For sure.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
This is some really bad karma for George and Jenny,
Like this is just their hit, one thing after the next.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
Right, right, well, if it's if it's karma, right well,
and by this point too, George and Jenny had feared
the absolute worse for their children. They had likely you know,
died in this horrific and bizarre house fire. The town
fire department had finally come Liz hours later. Get this,
They arrived around eight in the morning, seven hours after

(22:34):
the fire broke out to begin with, when the home
was just two and a half miles from the nearest
fire department.

Speaker 3 (22:40):
My jaw is wide open right now. What the heck
took them so long?

Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah? Well, you know again, there are a few different
reports about what may have happened, Liz. Some had said
that it was a combination of a lack of workforce
and the fire's chief inability to drive the city's fire truck,
which I have a lot of leessions about, but like,
let's just mark that for a second. The fire chief
you know later though also allegedly said that there were

(23:07):
no sirens or radios at this fire station at this point,
so in order to get in touch with the other firefighters,
the operator would have to get in touch with one firefighter,
who would have to get in touch with the rest
of them by you know, one by one, to get
them all pulled together to respond to this phone to
this call. Hold up.

Speaker 2 (23:25):
Okay, there's so many questions, but the fire chief could
not drive the firetruck.

Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah. Again, that had zero explanation at any point that
anytime that I spread anything about that, and like he
just like admits this on his own accord. Yeah, I
have no idea what could even possibly Like I don't
understand how you are the fire chief, Like, how are
you allowed to be the fire chief if you can't?

Speaker 3 (23:53):
Right, that's like Rocks, I am as qualified as.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
He is, right exactly, Well, what else can you do
if you can't drive the truck? Like I don't know, you're.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
Not answering the phones and you're not calling your guys
to get to the fire So, oh my goodness.

Speaker 3 (24:09):
Yeah, see that would never happen.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
Today just because yeah, I mean, you can you can
find where anyone is just by looking at your phone
like give the location. So that's wild, that's crazy to
think of.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, no, insane. Yeah, and again it's definitely that's definitely
like a dated thing for sure, that like you know,
you know, benefit of technology in twenty twenty four, like
they didn't have that back in nineteen forty five, and
so we have to like keep that in mind, I suppose.
But like again, like there's just a lot of things
that just went wrong, Like I can't imagine how much
could have went wrong that would have prevented you from

(24:41):
being able to respond to like an active fire with
kids inside for seven hours.

Speaker 3 (24:47):
It's because it was at two am. They were just
sleeping soundly, I guess.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
So I mean that frankly, that's the best excuse I
can come up with, and like like.

Speaker 3 (24:57):
No idea, Oh my goodness, wow, this poor f Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
Well, and so again there was still no sign of Maurice, Martha, Lee, Lewis,
Jenny or Betty. Again, those were the five kids who
Jenny had let stay up past their bedtimes to play
with their new toys and who were supposed to you know,
shut the house down for the night, you know, draw
the curtains, lock the doors, all that stuff. George and
Jenny had both come down to the realization that they

(25:21):
likely had died in that fire and that they were
not going to get their kids back. The fire had
burned through much of the house. The living room, dining room, kitchen,
George's office, in Jenny's bedroom were all barely recognizable and
completely destroyed by the flames. On Christmas Day, there was
a brief surge conducted for the remains of the children,

(25:41):
but none were found, not even bones or basically any
sign that the children were even there to begin with,
So after just a little while, they decided to call
off the search. The chief suggested to the family that
they leave the property to begin grieving to take care
of themselves, suggesting to them that the fire had likely
simply been high to turn their precious babies into nothing

(26:02):
more than ash.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
That's horrible. That like gives you chills just to think about.
Uh do they even know what caused the fire?

Speaker 1 (26:12):
Well, the inspector determined that the fire was likely caused
by faulty wiring, calling it accidental. And that's when things
just stopped adding up to the stutters, because not only
did George like just have the house rewired not that
long ago for a project he was having done on
the house. But then he was remembering everything that happened,
you know, that night in the frenzy of trying to

(26:34):
save the children, the odd phone call, the strange noise
in the roof, the ladder being gone, and his truck's
not starting. Plus by this point, George had begun to
get suspicious about the phone lines being down too. It
had been assumed that the phone lines had been burned
through during the fire, but upon further inspection, it started
to look like the line had actually been cut, and

(26:56):
that line was about fourteen feet above the ground, two
feet from the nearest utility poll.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
Okay, now things are starting to add up a little.
Someone is out for the Solder family. That's my initial theory.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
Well yeah, and so again, so I go back to
the to the fact that like this like like all
this is adding up in hindsight, right, like all this
is like one of these things would have been odd,
but all of this is just plain suspicious, flat out right.
And so's but it's again, it's like it's like they
were like this farm family, they live in this like
decent neighborhood. It's like, who possibly could have wanted to

(27:32):
do that to them? You know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (27:33):
There's there's more to the story that we don't know.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
So so what does the Solder family think happened exactly?

Speaker 1 (27:41):
Well, you know, I don't think you have to look
very hard for that theory list because someone is actually
charged pretty quickly here, not with the fire, but instead
with theft. Let me explain, do what happened with that list? So,
as investigators are clearing the scene of the fire, neighbors
pointed out a man who was taking an automotive block
and chain so like a car hoist mechanism, basically from

(28:03):
the Solder family's home. Now, this man's identity has not
been published anywhere that I have seen, but the man
is arrested in charge with theft. He denies having any
involvement directly with the fire, but he does admit to
cutting the Solder family's phone line, saying that he thought
it was a power line. He never ended up going
to trial, though, because he ends up pleading guilty to

(28:25):
this whole thing.

Speaker 3 (28:26):
Okay, but he cut the phone night, Why was he?
Why was he cutting the power line? To begin with?

Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yeah, no idea, simply have no idea. Yeah, I can't
even have a theory on like why that would even
be a thing. And like again you would think that
like this happens and you're just like, uh, like we
think that you definitely had something to start this had
something to do with this bizarre fire in some shape
or form. But again, at this point, they're just thinking
that the fire was a total accident, like like you know,
an electrical short and so like I guess why would they,

(28:56):
But like again, like it always drives me nuts whenever,
like investigators just like don't like get such tunnel vision
on something. It's like wowd and like who's to say,
like you know, eighty years ago, like maybe they did
look into this dude and like really truly like like
ruled him out, But I never saw that they did necessarily,
just that he said that he didn't have anything to
do with it.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
I feel like the Solder family has a lot more
faith in humanity than I do. Because this was my
home and all these things were not adding up. I
would be demanding answers, but it seems like there's kind
of like, oh, to another case of bad luck.

Speaker 1 (29:28):
I guess, so well, and like the Solder family is
like definitely a little bit more suspicious than like, you know,
suspicious of the situation than than the investigators are at
this point. Yeah, and so so maybe they're like maybe
they saw this happen, and we're just like that's weird,
you know, like yeah, I don't know, and like they
and like also too, it's like it's like like they

(29:49):
shouldn't even really be having to investigate this situation, like right,
or shouldn't even like don't even have the energy to
be like suspicious of this, dude, because they're like still
grieving their five kids. Yeah right, so it's like who
even knows. So anyways, I don't even know, but you know,
of course this raises some you know, of the Solder's eyebrows,
of course, and they are already having their suspicions about

(30:10):
the circumstances surrounding the fire. They're increasingly more convinced that
the house fire that kills five of the children was
actually the result of arson, and that theory is further
substantiated by a bus driver, another witness, who comes forward
with information about what he saw the night of the fire.
He tells police that that night, he saw unknown people

(30:31):
quote lobbing balls of fire onto the Solder family's root.

Speaker 4 (30:37):
What Yeah, oh my gosh, I just feel like there's
been already so many plot twists in the story in there,
I don't even know what's going to come out of
your mouth next, Liam, Like I feel like there are
so many more to come.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
You never haven't gonna say at any point, but like again,
so like, yeah, there's so many things, and like again
from an investigative standpoint, like why not look like it
just feels like there's so much there that like is
war like warrants another look beyond just a like you know,
a you know, like it's an electrical short situation and

(31:14):
like an accidental fire because like again if you and
like this also like adds up to like exactly what
Jenny was talking about. Also because if you remember, like
those weird noises on the roof, so they sound like
potentially like you know, balls of fire being thrown onto
your roof, right, and then there's also like interestingly, so
the family like later kind of points out this, you know,
what their theory is or on like how the fire happened,

(31:37):
and so what they say is is that the fire
had actually burned from the roof down as opposed to
like the bottom up, which is how fires usually start
from my understanding, and so like, so they think that
that's like tracks for that and like sure, like okay,
but like there, but to be clear, like the investigators
found no evidence of that happening necessarily, they still don't.

(31:59):
They still don't think that. They like, there's no way
to prove that from their perspective, that the fire did
indeed start at the top and go down as opposed
to their way around, And so they just kind of
dismissed this as like, we can't prove that this actually happened.

Speaker 2 (32:14):
Okay, these investigators have to get to work, Like wake
up to your alarms. People don't sleep in the night
when a house is burning to the ground.

Speaker 3 (32:23):
Oh my gosh. So what do the police do about this?

Speaker 1 (32:26):
Well, they actually stick with that same story that the
fire was likely accidental, more than likely caused by electrical
issues list and that the Solders five kids likely died
inside of the home. The fire investigator tells the Solder
family that there is no use in keeping the house
intact or and then you know, hanging around it hoping
to find new information because they just don't think that
it exists. Any clues were likely destroyed in the fire,

(32:49):
along with the life that the Solder family had been
building together. So less than a week after this fire,
George Senior had the house bulldozed over, pushing ford five
feet of dirt on top of what was left of
their home, replacing it instead with a memorial garden in
honor of their children. And on December thirtieth, nineteen forty five,

(33:09):
they had death certificates issued for fourteen year old Maurice,
twelve year old Martha Lee, nine year old Lewis, eight
year old Jenny, and five year old Betty. But as
the months went on with simply questions surrounding this fire,
at least as far as George and Jenny were concerned,
suddenly things start happening that, you know, make me at
least question what we actually know about what happened to

(33:32):
the Solder children, Because suddenly, Liz, people start calling in
that have been seeing the kids around town. Get ready
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(34:34):
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(35:03):
in from a manager at a motel between Fayetteville and Charleston,
West Virginia. It wasn't long after the fire. Once word
had spread and the pictures of the kids were circulated
around the area. The manager of the motel said that
he saw four of the Solder kids with four other
adults who were speaking Italian on Christmas Day, just a
day after the house burned to the ground, with the

(35:25):
kids presumably inside.

Speaker 2 (35:27):
Oh my gosh, Okay, So my initial thought is the
kids were kidnapped and then someone tried to kill the
rest of the family to cover it up or hopefully
not get caught. I don't know how, I don't know
if that's anything what's gonna happen, But that's just my
initial thought.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah. Well, and again, so now we are, like, you know,
at the point where we you know, the were like
like people who just like call out of the woodwork, right,
like this kind of thing like happens all the time,
where it's like this happens, and like people just end up,
you know, like you know, you know, creating their own theories.
I do have to say, like, if this is close enough,

(36:06):
then like I'm assuming that like again smaller ish town,
that these people like presumably like knew knew each other
or knew of each track kind of thing, meaning the
manager of the motel and the Solder family probably And
so I put a little bit more stake into that
for that reason. But I have to say, like this manager,
like who, like we see this all the time where

(36:26):
it's like like people who have no idea who these
kids really are beyond a picture, and it's just it's
just like someone who like looks kind of like them.
But like also, I mean if it's like four kids
that look kind of like four of the kids, like
maybe that's a little bit more real potentially, or like
a little bit more you know, substantive, right.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yeah, because four kids is a little harder to match
to like the description.

Speaker 3 (36:50):
But also back in.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
The day too, yeah, you have to be thinking they're
not having these clear photos of the kids, so you're right.

Speaker 1 (36:57):
Like right, that's fair.

Speaker 3 (36:58):
It could be like a look alike.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
But and maybe the family thought that originally because like
they're like that's awful to go through. You think your
kid is dead, and then all of a sudden people
are saying they see them right.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
Well, and and like I also have to say too,
because I listen, I'm always a skeptic with this kind
of stuff, but I also have to say too, like
like people with like tragedies and things that are just
like you know, really getting a whole lot of attention,
Like people will do anything like I'm sure you know
this as a news reporter or right, Liz, Like people
will do anything to be part of the story. Hey, true,

(37:30):
And so I like maybe that's what's going on here
as well, Like if you want to be that kind
of skeptical about what's going on, maybe I don't know.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
Yeah, because even nowadays, like you see it on with
social media and TikTok, like people will come out of
the woodworks and be like, right, well I knew.

Speaker 3 (37:46):
This person or whatnot.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
And this is like almost like a back in the
day type of scenario.

Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yeah kind of right, It's like, yeah, like I they
came into my modelle, Like how do you prove that?
Like okay, Like yeah, which I like to have a
little bit more faith than the people for that reason.

Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yeah, yeah, especially back then, like you can't prove they
came in or what Like there's no cameras, I'm sure,
like security cameras. Yeah, it's a lot easier to fight
and solve crime nowadays than it was back in nineteen
forty five.

Speaker 1 (38:15):
Right, Yeah, I would imagine I would hope it would be. Yeah,
but in some ways, well, this is like probably different podcasts,
but in some ways I feel like maybe potentially harder
because I was even so like I've been obsessed over
the Sebastian Rogers case. I'm sure that you have also
been following that one. Yeah, And so like I was
just watching a press conference this morning and they were
and that one of the investigators was talking about how
like because of the amount of attention that this has gotten,

(38:36):
like and because of the amount of like you know,
you know, conspiracy theories that have surrounded the situation, and
just like the tension, like the social media you know,
buzz that it's been getting that they've been getting so
many tips that just have you know, once they investigate
it that like they seem legit on the surface, and
then once they investigate, they found out they found out
that it's just bs and so they just like wasted

(38:59):
all that time, yeah, to chase down a lead that
just was never gonna go anywhere, and so they like,
I feel like there's like a fair amount of that.
But like, again, probably a different podcast on and I
definitely could talk about misinformation.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
Oh my gosh, specifically tik talk all day long.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
That is so so awful though that like someone would
misinform the police.

Speaker 3 (39:21):
Yeah, like, come on, really, people.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
Well you know that wasn't all either, though, Liz, because
in nineteen forty seven, George also sees a newspaper photo
of school children in New York and he was sure
that one of the kids in that picture was of
his two year old little bed. So he jumped into
his pickup truck and drove straight to Manhattan. But he
wasn't allowed into the school, of course, to see the

(39:46):
child and verify it all for himself, And so he
never really got like that full clear answer for sure.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
Oh my gosh, I was gonna say, I hope he
waited outside until the kids walked down to school.

Speaker 3 (39:57):
That's so creepy, But like.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
No, yeah, well and and again, so I go back
and forth, like shure, like George would probably know just
about more than anybody, you know, what little girl would
look like, Betty. But I also could see like like again,
we were talking like a couple weeks ago about Johnny
Gosh and Nora and Gosh, and it just like and
about how like I think it's very possible that you know,

(40:20):
how you know, like a parent like this tragedy happens,
and like your mind just plays tricks on you, Like
I could see that being the case here, yeah as well,
And so I don't know, like it could really go
either way, but like point being is, like clearly George
and Jenny are like convincing themselves that their kids are
out there somewhere and have like very much, so like

(40:42):
crossed the threshold from like they died in the fire
to like they may have like something odd or maybe
happening here. Then meets the eye.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
Oh yeah, they're skeptical, skeptical, like they know something is
going on.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
Absolutely absolutely well. This is when George becomes sure that
all five of his children are still alive out there,
and strangers around the country start to report sightings of
the children too. This older family buys a billboard that
is the most famous aspect of this case. The billboard
has pictures of all five kids on it and offers
a ten thousand dollars reward for information leading to their location.

(41:18):
And so between the tips and the oddities, George frankly
became obsessed with the idea that his kids did not
die in that house fire, but there were other clues
to Liz. For starters, the solder family learns that the
fire actually likely did not get hot enough to cremate
the children, And again we talked about this part in
the Mary Rester episode that we did Episode two. Fires

(41:40):
have to get pretty darn hot for pretty darn long
to cremate a body. This older family learns that the
fire likely had to have been burning for at least
fourteen hundred degrees fahrenheit for at least two hours to
burn a body to ask, and sure, it's possible if
the fire could have burned for that long, considering again
how long it took the fire department to ride to
begin with. But the book Encyclopedia of Unsolved Crimes noted

(42:04):
that there was still appliances in the home that were
totally recognizable as almost as though like they never caught
on fire to begin with. So they found it hard
to believe the fire or wouldn't have damaged those items
more if it was bad enough to leave, you know,
absolutely no trace behind of their kids.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
Absolutely no, they're correct, Like there's no way that the
appliances look unharmed.

Speaker 3 (42:28):
And then no sign of the kids. Oh my goodness,
I just can't imagine.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
Though, being this poor, poor family, like reading your kids
and then thinking, oh, wait, no they're out there, like
just what a mind fuck that is?

Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, correct, I don't think I've ever heard your curse
as Basan.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
I know.

Speaker 3 (42:43):
I was like when I said that it must be
the wine. I was like, am I allowed to say that?

Speaker 1 (42:49):
Yes you can curse? Yeah? That was That was a
very rhode island of you right there. I like feel
like dirty now. Honestly back in New England, baby, Back
in New England, baby. But yeah no, so again, so again,
going back to so so the like heat of this fire,
right so again we talked about this on mayor research,
like how long you had to have been burning? How

(43:10):
at how hot? And that was one of the big
reasons why even in that case, like we weren't sure
if if this, how this would have even happened, like
just based off of think what they were what their
theory was was a cigarette. And so now we're talking
about like a house fire sure could have burned for
you know, at least two hours, but for fourteen hundred
degrees fahrenheit. Like think about like when you cremate a body,

(43:32):
like you have to shove them into this like metal
like probably a little geo graphic. But like put put
your loved one into a metal like container that is
on fire, and like that is the only way that
you're going to be able to get that hot to
be able to cremate a body, and like in a
just open airhouse. Like I just found it hard to
believe that it could possibly get that hot.

Speaker 3 (43:53):
You know, I've never thought about that.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
And then you really got you had to emphasize the
cremating with saying your loved one. I never thought that
that in my mind. But that's crazy to think about.
And yeah, you're absolutely right.

Speaker 3 (44:05):
We to my mind, I know, right, I need more wine.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
For this, but like, yeah, you're and think of I
don't know how big this house was, but that had
to be very powerful fire if that was the case,
and I would believe it because the firefighters didn't come
for eight hours. But the fact that the appliances didn't
like that just doesn't add up.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
Yeah, the appliance is also is kind of what got me. Yeah,
there live because you would think that if it was
fourteen hundred degrees fair enough, it would melt hours, it
would melt right like it would like something like it
would be beyond like just like some stain assah kind
of situation, like maybe some like burn marks, and that
just didn't really seem to be the case. And so

(44:49):
it's like where, like where did they like where did
this all happen? And like they weren't even they weren't
in the main floor of the home either, and like
they I don't know. It's just it's just oddie because
because that's like that's where it would have made the
most amount of sense for me, for like that's where
it would have been hottest, because that's where like the

(45:10):
main structure of the houses. And so therefore you would
imagine that's like the source of the fire or at
least like the base of it kind of ractually, right,
I would imagine that that is like the hottest part
of it. But like they weren't there because they went
out like they went out that way, like they went
out of the home. They would have seen them, right,
and they weren't. They weren't there, And and Jenny would
have seen them when she woke up in the middle
of the night, which and she just didn't.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
No, I'm going with my theory it was ours and
someone set the home on fire. They threw the flames
onto the roof and they kidnapped the kids and then
they set the home on fire trying to cover it up.

Speaker 3 (45:42):
I'm still with that theory.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
Yeah, I mean so here, so I think you're probably
onto something there for short list, I think like where
my brain goes is like maybe something to the extent
of like so like okay, like you like call the house,
like you know, to spook them out of the situations.
That way they like get up like they see all
the the see all this happened, like distract them kind
of kind of Thingah. But then like you so then

(46:04):
you get into the house and like see that there
are kids there maybe or like I guess that probably
would have had to have happened before because the kids
were already gone or ride in the living room when
when Jenny arrived. Again if we're just going down this
like real deep dark rabbit hole here, so like maybe
that would have would have had to have happened. But
then so point being is that like maybe you get
into the house, like you try to light it on
fire there, but then you see the kids take the

(46:27):
kids because like they've already seen you. I don't know,
it's just I don't know who, not.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
A question, I have no idea, A lot of questions.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
And welcome to my brain for the past like two weeks,
I was, you know, investigating this case. Liz. Now you
know where I've been going so insane because of.

Speaker 3 (46:42):
The case, understandably so yeah, yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
Well plus Liz again, if this wasn't you know, insane enough,
get this. In nineteen forty seven, just two years after
the after the fire, a neighbor approaches the family with
something really odd. The neighbor says that the fire chief
claimed to have found a heart in the ashes of
the home and placed it in a dynamite box and

(47:09):
buried it at the scene of the fire and just
didn't tell anyone about it until now. Well, George and
the private investigator that the Thoughder family had hired by
this point asked the chief to show them where he
buried the box, which he does. They dug it up
and brought it to a local funeral home to examine it,
and after they did that, they determined that it wasn't

(47:30):
actually a human heart, but instead what looked to be
like fresh beef liver.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
What okay, the fire chiefs involved, There's no way he's
coming up with excuses and now pretending he dug up
a heart.

Speaker 3 (47:45):
Also, how is the heart?

Speaker 2 (47:47):
Like they could salvage that, but they couldn't salvage anything else.

Speaker 1 (47:52):
That was exactly my thought. Everything else burned to ash
except for the human heart. But then so then I
like also had that. I was like, okay, like what
is the police chief of the fire chief hide hiding?

Speaker 2 (48:03):
Year?

Speaker 1 (48:03):
Yeah, But then but then I was like why, Like why,
like why would why like if if you're gonna go
off the down, the down, the whole of like okay,
this was burn burned to a crisp and like you know,
no survivors kind of thing, like no no trace of
the kids? Why then make up this story about the heart?

(48:24):
Like what is that? What does that do to you? Like?
What does that do for for for your case? You
know what I mean? Like I just I have no idea.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
And imagine being so stupid that you're like they will
believe that this fresh beef liver is an are Like
what is going on?

Speaker 1 (48:40):
Yeah? I have no idea. This that was baffling to me.
I still don't understand what the point of this whole
thing is and like why And like again I feel
like there's like so many weird things about this case,
and this is definitely one of them that like people
like it's just a weird thing happens, and then people
are just like, oh okay, and then just like never
go like I said it further, like never like like

(49:02):
intensely interrogates it. It's just like all right, Like I
never saw what we did with the with the beef liver,
or like what we did with the fire chief as
a result of him like making up that he found
this heart that was actually beef.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
It's like not funny, but it is. You're like, what
the heck is going on? I cannot imagine.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
Though, how aggravating this must be for the parents, Like
it's just one thing after the next to kind of
like distract them in a way from what's actually going on.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
Yeah, and like for a moment there for that exact reason, Liz,
I was like, is the family like somehow involved, like
parents involved? Like I don't, I don't know like what
that would look like or how, but like I feel
like that would make sense if nothing else makes sense
right that Like, but like but why, like I never

(49:53):
saw why I never saw a single ounce of motive
as to why the family would want to get rid
of only half their children.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
Oh my gosh, I'm like on the edge of my
seat though, because there's just so many twists and turns
in this story.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
Yeah, well, we saw a few pages left, so Liz,
so hold on to that agency and definitely hold onto
that glass too, because you're gonna need it for the
sub graven allegy, you know. And around the same time too,
one of the girls made a really interesting discovery where
the house used to be. It was a green, hard
rubber object near the house, which the family has since

(50:26):
believed to be part of a firebomb, which again would
line up with the bizarre theory based on what the
bus driver reported to police.

Speaker 2 (50:35):
There's too many weird things going on. There's too many
people involved reporting things that it's none of it's setting
up that it's something fishy that they're covering, and these
investigators cannot be trusted.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
Right well, and again like not even just covering it,
just like not even bothering to look at at it.
It feels slaysms like because it's like it feels like
there are all these things that just point to exis
exactly what happened here that nobody nobody either cares about
or like is negligently looking the other way about. Like
it's just it's just odd because it just it feels

(51:09):
like there is like all the evidence in the world
that somebody did something to this house and like did
all this stuff to like distract the family in the meantime,
and then and like and there's all this evidence and
all these witness testimony to be like like yes, like
somebody threw a firebomb onto the roof of the house
and that's what caused the fire. It was an electrical thing,

(51:29):
it was it was an intentional arson, And I just
I just don't understand why we're why why no one
seems to care to look into why or who may
have wanted.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
To do that, guess, and they're they should have never
burned down the house either, because I feel like that's evidence,
Like I don't get the investigators are leading them in
the wrong direction.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
Yeah, I guess, so, Yeah, I don't understand why they
why they like like bulldoze over the home like so quickly.
But I guess at the time too, like like George
and Jenny were very much so the mindset of just
like like this was just some horrible as yet. So
like maybe that's the excuse, but like they definitely.

Speaker 3 (52:08):
Wish they didn't, right, right, because you're like, what other
evidence is there?

Speaker 1 (52:12):
Yeah? Well, you know, this PI is actually like really
interesting to me too, Liz, because he actually brings up
some really troubling parts that just add to the WTF
of it all in my opinion. According to this PI,
the Solder family had actually been threatened. In October nineteen
forty five, just two months before the fire. The man

(52:34):
had had tried to sell the Solder family life insurance
and they rejected his offer. In response, the salesman was
furious and said their home would quote go up and smoke,
and that their children would be destroyed over dirty remarks
that George had made about Benito Mussolini.

Speaker 3 (52:50):
Wait a second, Benito Mussolini.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
Yeah, and there's actually a bit more there, Liz. Obviously
there seems you know, this seems to be as good
of an any as any place to kind of you know,
go that place, Liz. So just like hold on to
your glassic and we're going about stack like a real
sharp left tern.

Speaker 3 (53:06):
But this is all.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
So, like I said, George Senior was an Italian immigrant,
but He was also very outspoken against the fascist government
that had taken over his native country by this point
in history, and because of the divisive times that had
come with living in nineteen forty five, this drew George
some really unwanted attention. And so when rumors starts swirling

(53:28):
about the possibility of the Solder family children maybe possibly
having survived the fire, that's when rumors start that the
mafia may actually have been responsible to begin with. The
rumors suggest that George may have pissed off the Sicilian
mafia and just the wrong people, and as punishment, they
may have taken their children and burned down their home

(53:49):
all to get back at them.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
Oh my goodness, I needed You're right, I needed to
hold onto my wind for that. This was a left
turn I wasn't expecting. But honestly, it is starting to
make sense. I think like that, actually it all makes sense. Yeah,
Like it makes more sense that the mafia would be involved,
because there's too many sketchy things happening that didn't make
sense oof, and also the irony that it was all

(54:14):
over life insurance and then the kids.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
Right, well, I mean again, I kind of that's a
little stereotypical a little too on the nose for me, right,
because I feel like that's what like, like I this
is total sidebar, but like I think about the episode
of the Office where that guy was trying to sell
insurance and they thought that I was part of the mafia.
It's to Michael. But so point being is that I
definitely feel like there's like some sort of intricate link.

(54:39):
Yeah that like you know, the stereotype was based off
of some reality to a certain extent. But again, so
like you were saying, it makes a lot of sense
though too at the same time, where you know, because
because again so there was like a group of people.
It's this gives very much so like like like you know,
you know, lots of different people working together type situation. Yeah,
because if you remember, like the bus driver saw a

(55:00):
group of people throwing the fire bombs onto the roof, right,
so like that like that is like a group, you know,
like that says, you know, organized mafia mob whatever it
is to me and so and then if you remember,
so then the motel owner also said that he saw
four of the children with people who were speaking Italian. Yeah,
and so like maybe this I mean it just it's again,

(55:23):
it just seems like like I've I haven't seen so
many like so many cases right where it's like you
have all these bizarre pieces that just match up so well.

Speaker 4 (55:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
I feel like whenever we get to this point where
it's like all these theories are kind of thrown out there,
like it's usually like one of the other, it's not
like all of them. This is all making like, this
is all connecting way too well for me to not
be like, this is what happened.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Yes, like none of it made sense up until you
mentioned the mafia, And now I'm like, you can't make
this up, like it makes sense, right, No, you.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
Can't, Yeah, right exactly, And like again so like going
like I don't understand why it took two years or
like maybe because it was the mafia. Maybe that's why
it took two years. Yeah, why it took two years
for for the you know, for the for this information
about the you know, the the life insurance agent that
was threatening them to come out they had, especially considering

(56:14):
that he basically threatened like exactly what happened to the family.
So I don't really I don't know, I just don't
understand why, Like why are we not? Why are we
not looking at them? It's just it's just odd.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
Exactly, Oh my gosh, this case is wild.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
It sure is well and so so again, so let's
let's like kind of recap here because there's a couple
of notes that I didn't even get to yet. Cause again,
so going back to like the children were the only
ones downstairs, like they didn't share they did not share
bedrooms in any way, so like they were like like
some of them were in the attics, some of them
were in different floors, like they were they like they
were not all like in one bedroom, but they but

(56:51):
the last place that anyone had seen them was in
the living room. So like sure, like if kind of
again what we've been saying the whole time, if you
know we're going to go down this kidnapping theory, like
it would make sense that you go into the home
and just take the five kids that are right there
rightly considered, like yeah, like why would you go into
multiple different bedrooms? And so there's that, But then so
there's also this note Liz that just like absolutely floors me.

(57:12):
And just again, like if this did not get any crazier,
like wait until this port lives because so this life
insurance salesman. So if you remember going way back, so
the there was like the investigation into the cause of
the fire, and so they actually put forth an inquest
to decide and we can talk about an in quest
because I think that's the first time I mentioned that

(57:33):
in this podcast. They put forth an inquest to determine
the to determine officially the cause of the fire. And
you want to know who was on that in quest,
the life insurance salesman who was turning the family like
like two months before, yeah, who eventually like ruled the
fire an accident. And so it's like it just is

(57:55):
too much to ignore, right, Like there's it's too much
there that just like I can't I can't see this
all and not say that this is all connected in
some way, shape or form. Yes, this is It's almost impossible.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
This is like the most turning into the most corrupt
case ever.

Speaker 1 (58:12):
It feels like it right, and like again like going
like like these kind of towns right where it's like
end too, So like Fayetteville, I guess back in nineteen
forty five, because this was like right when like a
lot of Italian immigrants were coming from Italy to America.
And even at that point, like a lot of Italian
immigrants had already been here and already been like like
you know, supporters of the fascist movement in Italy from America,
and so there was like a lot of tension at

(58:33):
this point. Again industry buff that's my total sidebar, but like,
but so there was a lot of like tension in
America with with you know, with Italian immigrants and like
between Italian immigrants and Americans and all that jazz, and
so there was a lot of tension, a lot of
like nationalist stuff going on and so point and but
but Fayetteville specifically, I read was a very commonplace for

(58:55):
Italian immigrants to relocate at this time. Oh interesting, and
so so this so fate fell for whatever reason, like
ended up just being like a hub like like for
like a lot of Italian like a very Italian Italian
city and so so point being is like like people
like like it wouldn't surprise me if like that Italian

(59:17):
you know, this member of the Italian mafia like knew
the fire chief or like knew the firefighters in town
like that. All that kind of thing happened far too
much in this time of this time of the of
the world, and so I I just it just it
feels like it just makes a little bit too much
sense to me in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (59:36):
One hundred percent makes too much sense that the mafia
is one hundred percent involved. I'm ditching my other theory
the mafia kidnapped the kids and they set the house
on fire.

Speaker 1 (59:46):
I mean, it just makes sense, right, It just makes
sense at this point, Like I don't know, but you know,
George and Jenny though, again, I keep going back to
them because they're really the only people who like actually
matter in this whole thing. They never gave up hope
that they would someday find out what really actually happened
to their children, and even if it meant that they
did not, you know, did indeed die tragically in that

(01:00:06):
Christmas Eve fire. Throughout the years, of solders had received
several tasts about possible sightings, but none of them panned out.
In the nineteen sixties, the family received a photo in
the mail of someone who very well could have been
one of their boys as an adult, but they never
got to the bottom of that tip either. The billboard
the family put up stayed there until Jenny died in

(01:00:27):
nineteen eighty nine, forty four years after the fire. The
search for the truth about the Solder family took the
Sodders all across the country to Tennessee, Indiana, New York, Washington,
a Spanish hamlet in Florida, and even to a small
Mexican border town, but they never got the answers that
they were looking for. The Solder family never rebuilt their

(01:00:47):
home themselves. But today there is indeed a new house
that has replaced the old one. And after all this time,
the Solder family never knew real peace. They have all
passed since then Sylvia as recently as April of twenty
twenty one, all without knowing the true story behind what
happened on Christmas Eve in nineteen forty five. So you

(01:01:08):
know our you know motto here basically on crime over wine.
You know we it's never too late for justice. We
strongly believe that. So if you know anything about the
deaths of Maurice, Martha, Lewis, Jenny and Betty Sotdter call
the Fayetteville Police Apartment and that number is three zero
four five seven four zero two five five. But in

(01:01:29):
the meantime, Liz, that is all question mark that we
have for you this week. Thank you so much for
having on.

Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
Oh my goodness, you can't just leave me hanging right there.
That makes me so sad for the family.

Speaker 3 (01:01:41):
Also that they off haul passed away and never got
true justice.

Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
Yeah, well, and I just like also have to I
also have to feel like that they are really they're
the ones who actually know the truth at this point,
you know what I mean, like after they pass and like,
you know, yeah, true now that they know what actually happened,
So like I have to believe that in my heart
of hearts. So like sure, and so maybe that makes
me feel a little bit better, but like, yeah, not
fully because I need to know the truth, you know

(01:02:07):
what I mean. I just so yeah, I know I
wish I you know, the whole time, Liz, when you
were talking and you were like and you're like, oh
my gosh, you know what happened. You know what happened,
I'm like, well, like you're gonna hate me toward the
end of this episode. So scale of whet is sound?
How much you hate me right now?

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
You dead?

Speaker 3 (01:02:21):
No, because you gave me a good wine to drink
and try this week.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
That's fair, knock it down to a nine. I'll take that.
I'll take that one.

Speaker 3 (01:02:28):
Liam. I have to say, you set up the stories
so well because I didn't see any of this coming,
Like there's so many twists and turns.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
Yeah, I yeah, well, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah,
but I I really I was like reaging all through
this stuff, Liz. In my head was just absolutely spinning.
I still even really know where I land on this
whole thing, honestly, just in terms of like truth fiction,
you know, theory, you know what, what could actually you know,
what could have you know, just been a little bit
too convenient? Yeah, was far too inconvenient, you know it

(01:02:59):
just it just there's a lot of things that like
and maybe we just will never know. Maybe it's just
one of those stories that will just remain a mystery unfortunately.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
Yes, it's so awful to think about too, that there
are these families out there that have no justice whatsoever.

Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
Also, like the kids could possibly.

Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
Still be alive today, like they could be in their
what eighties, nineties, I don't know, but like are.

Speaker 3 (01:03:23):
They with the mafia somewhere?

Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
Hypothetically? Yeah, that's fair, right, Yeah, I mean hypothetically, I
guess so, Sylvia was the youngest. She was the two
year old and she was twenty twenty one. Yeah, and
so so there it's like pretty well established. I think that,
like the older children probably have a very least passed
away from old age if they did indeed survive the
fire in one way, shape or form. And you know,

(01:03:46):
I just also have to say too, like I have
always and like most some of those kids were pretty
old in terms of like you know, like knowing what
was going on. Yeah, and so like I also have
to say that I like, I'm I'm just never one
that thinks that, like you know, normal people can just
like go away and like never and like no one

(01:04:07):
will ever find out what happened to you or you
know what I mean, like be able to go over
and like be able to stand with the radar for
as long as you did, I mean, unless you're in
the Italian mafia. I guess maybe that helps. Who knows. Well, Liz,
thank you again so much for coming on. Tell everyone
where they can find you and your work online.

Speaker 3 (01:04:24):
At lisbethsan on Instagram, Facebook, come find me.

Speaker 1 (01:04:28):
Follow me excellent. Well, thank you again so much for
coming on, Liz, and thank you all so much for listening.
We are going to put all of our sources on
our website so you can read everything for yourself and
probably come up with a few theories too. And if
you were just loving this podcast and you're just looking
for a way to tell everyone and anyone about it,
the best way to help people discover this podcast is
by leaving us a five star rating and a review

(01:04:50):
wherever you are listening right now, so make sure you
follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. And if you're
wondering what we have in store for you next week,
here's a quick sneak peek. Hello everybody, it's Liam and
I'm Madison mccannon.

Speaker 3 (01:05:07):
Next week, I'm entering the crime Vinearn with a case
of a woman whose life's routine may have left her
vulnerable to the worst.

Speaker 1 (01:05:13):
We will tell you every single painstake and detail about
that case and how you can help next Wine Wednesday,
on another episode of Crime over Wine. Proud member of
the pod Nouga Network,