January 5, 2024 • 24 mins
In this special episode of the Crime Survivors Speak Podcast, we take a moment to turn the microphone towards our own producer, Annie Nichol, whose personal journey is rooted in the very foundation of survivor advocacy and storytelling. As a survivor of a high-profile crime that reshaped the national conversation on justice, Annie brings a unique perspective to the sensationalism often found in media narratives around crime and victims. Reflecting on the personal tragedy of losing her sister, Polly Klaas, Annie shares the complex journey of navigating a highly publicized case and the subsequent legislative changes that led to the widespread implementation of Three Strikes laws. She speaks candidly about the pain of witnessing her sister's story being used to propagate systems of harm and describes her deep commitment to advocating for a justice system driven by healing rather than retribution. This conversation emphasizes the importance of compassionate storytelling that amplifies survivors' leadership and power, proposing a vision of advocacy wherein survivors can collectively harness their creativity as a powerful tool for implementing change and building community.
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Episode Transcript
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Annie Nichol (00:00):
Storytelling is
really the antidote to isolation.
Stories are connective.
They bring us together, they show us
These common threads of experience
and allow us to see patterns in how
harm happens and also how cycles of
harm can be disrupted and how we tell
stories is incredibly important too,
(00:21):
all too often in the media,
stories about crime and survivors
are often sensationalized and
leveraged for political agendas.
I I have a lot of personal experience
with this and that's why I think it's so
important to offer a platform to amplify
survivors in their leadership and in their
power to talk not only about what happened
(00:42):
to them but also how they made meaning of
their experience and found deeper purpose.
Aswad Thomas (00:53):
Welcome to
Crime Survivors Speak.
My name is Aswad Thomas.
I'm the National Director of Crime
Survivors for Safety and Justice.
We are a national network of 185, 000
crime victims from across the country.
If you haven't already subscribed
to stay up to date on the latest
episodes, you can do that on YouTube.
Apple podcasts, Spotify, and other
(01:15):
streaming services by clicking on
the link on your screen or going to
the website at www.cssj.org\podcast.
Man, today is a unique episode.
So today I'll be talking
with Annie Nichol.
Annie is a survivor, a partner
of Crime Survivors for Safety and
(01:36):
Justice, and guess what y'all?
Annie served as the producer of
our Crime Survivors Speak podcast.
And like many of us, Annie
has been affected by violence.
I'm excited about this.
Welcome to the other side of the podcast.
Looking forward to today's conversation.
Annie Nichol (01:52):
Well, thanks for having me.
I think I came on as a producer when you
were just a few episodes into season one.
And I've really enjoyed
my role behind the scenes.
But you and I are always
talking about, you know, who
should we bring on the podcast?
And I don't think it ever really
occurred to us until one of our
colleagues suggested that I be a guest.
And we were like, oh
yeah, that makes sense.
But yeah, it's great to be
(02:12):
on this side of things today.
Aswad Thomas (02:13):
Awesome.
If you all are listening now, I'm
pretty sure you all can see and hear
the evolution of the podcast, right?
Since we first started last year.
That's a lot of thanks
to you, Annie, as well.
So I want to dive into that
podcast producer role, right?
So as a producer on the Crime
Survivors Speak podcast, would you
talk about how you see the role
(02:34):
of storytelling in creating more
safety and healing for survivors?
Annie Nichol (02:39):
Oh man, I believe
that storytelling is a vital
part of healing and recovery and
creating more safety for survivors.
One of the most dangerous things that
trauma does is isolate people and
make them feel alone in their pain.
And as we hear all too often on
this podcast, that message is often
(03:00):
really reinforced by the absence
of resources or support in the
aftermath of experiencing a trauma.
So, for me, storytelling is
really the antidote to isolation.
You know, stories are connective.
They bring us together, they show us
these common threads of experience
(03:21):
and allow us to see patterns in how
harm happens and also how cycles of
harm can be disrupted and how we tell
stories is incredibly important too.
As we see
all too often in the media, stories
about crime and survivors are
often really sensationalized and
leveraged for political agendas.
(03:42):
As you know, Aswad.
I I have a lot of personal experience
with this and that's why I think it's so
important to offer a platform to amplify
survivors in their leadership and in their
power to talk not only about what happened
to them but also how they made meaning of
their experience and found deeper purpose.
To some degree, we all know what harm
(04:04):
and violence looks like, but I think
not enough people know what real healing
looks like or that it's even possible, so
that's been kind of a guiding principle
for me in working on the podcast.
You know, to be honest, the
podcast has been a really
important part of my own healing.
I'm a survivor, but my experience
is really different from most of the
(04:25):
people we feature on the podcast.
I'm a survivor of a high profile crime
that people still talk about today, and
which was used by politicians at the time
to actually change the landscape of the
criminal justice system for the worse.
So, while I have...
the rare experience of being really
publicly validated as a survivor, which is
(04:46):
a privilege far too few survivors receive,
there was also a lot of exploitation.
There was a highly influential victims
rights movement that excluded and erased
survivors from marginalized communities.
So to get to work behind the scenes,
amplifying those stories of those
survivors and lifting up the incredible
work they do, for me, that's a
(05:07):
kind of counterbalancing of that
erasure that has helped me heal too.
Aswad Thomas (05:12):
Thank you for sharing that.
You know, I tell you like the importance
of sharing our story, the importance
of listening to other survivors share
their story is, you know, just been so
healing and therapeutic for so many of
us in this work and so many people who
have listened to the podcast as well.
But Annie, I want to talk a little
bit more about your survivor story.
(05:35):
What was it like to have your personal
trauma become the backdrop for a national
conversation on crime and criminal
justice over the past three decades?
Annie Nichol (05:46):
Yeah.
Well, I'll begin by talking a
little bit about what happened.
So, my sister was a girl named
Polly Class, who was kidnapped
from our bedroom 30 years ago, on
the evening of October 1st, 1993.
A man had followed Polly
home earlier that day.
He...
broke into our house while we were
sleeping, and he abducted her.
(06:08):
And there was a nationwide search
that lasted for almost two months
until Polly's body was found.
And, as you can imagine, life changed
really drastically after Polly's death.
I was six years old when
Polly was taken, which...
is too young to really
process a trauma like that.
(06:29):
Looking back, I really wish that
we had been left to kind of grieve
and heal in private, but Polly's
case had been a leading news story
the whole time she was missing.
And then the media frenzy
continued after her death.
There was this national
outpouring of grief and outrage.
And even though her killer was caught
(06:51):
and convicted, politicians realized
that they could channel that outrage
into sweeping legislative changes.
And that's how three strikes was passed
in California and across the country.
So at this point we've had three decades
of three strikes during which we've seen
mass incarceration expand exponentially.
(07:14):
You know, with the worst impact on
marginalized communities who are already
most vulnerable to crime and violence.
And it's incredibly painful to
know that my sister was used to
inflict that kind of harm on people.
It has absolutely compounded my
own trauma to see my sister's
(07:35):
innocence weaponized in that way.
And it's also really strange
to be in this moment.
where so much of the rhetoric we
hear around crime sounds so similar
to what I grew up with 30 years ago.
But one thing I know is that it's not too
late for us to learn as a society to not
(07:55):
use a tragedy like what happened to our
family to pass more harm on to others.
We really need policies that are driven
by empirical data about safety rather
than feelings of revenge and retribution.
Aswad Thomas (08:11):
Wow, Annie, thank you so
much for your courage, your bravery,
you know, your sister being here the
past three decades and just seeing
how the media and politicians use your
sister's death, you and your family's
experience, to help birth this movement
that we have called mass incarceration,
(08:33):
have helped to advance policies and
laws in California across the country
that have the Three Strikes Law.
Many of our listeners, I'm quite sure
you've heard that phrase before, but
also a lot of these sweeping laws,
you know, sentencing juveniles to
long term prison, uh, sentences, a lot
of the mandatory minimums laws that
(08:54):
we have in the 32,000 laws that have
been enacted over these past 30 years.
And a lot of that was law enforcement and
policymakers and media using your family's
experience, which has caused more
harm, right, to crime victims and also
to communities impacted by violence
(09:16):
and also impacted by incarceration.
And so just thank you again for,
for sharing your story and like so
many survivors, Annie, you know,
you now have been for the past
few years, stepping into advocacy.
We'd love to hear what made you begin
your advocacy journey, and we'd love for
you to talk more about The New Legacy,
which is a podcast that you have as well.
(09:38):
It's like working towards this
inclusion in this intersectional
victim's rights movement.
Annie Nichol (09:43):
So, it took a long time to
get ready to kind of step into this work.
Because there had been so much media
exploitation around what had happened
to Polly, you know, for many years, I
really shied away from the spotlight.
I was also really aware of how much
damage had been done by this kind of
pro punishment victims rights movement
of the 80s and 90s, which was really...
(10:05):
dominated by some very outsized
voices of victims that were
predominantly white and privileged.
So, for a long time, I just
felt really cautious knowing how
much harm had already been done.
But my sister, Jess, and I started
talking about it more and more, and
wondering if there was something we
could do to change Three Strikes.
(10:27):
So, a few years ago, we ended up cold
calling the ACLU, just kind of fully
expecting them to just suggest some,
like, local organizations we could join
or something, but the person we spoke to
was really welcoming and eager to connect
us to other people working in this space,
so they put us in touch with the Stanford
(10:47):
Three Strikes Project, who were amazing,
and then ultimately the Alliance for
Safety and Justice, and that's kind of
where we started really learning about
this survivor centered safety movement,
being led by survivors who were most
impacted by crime and mass incarceration.
So...
Jess and I kind of came in very
aware that we weren't policy experts,
(11:07):
even though these were issues
that we care very deeply about.
So we decided we need to
do an educational process.
We need to learn more.
We started our podcast, A New Legacy,
kind of as a way to both enrich our own
learning around these issues and also to
share that knowledge with people who are
wanting to learn more about this movement.
So we've had conversations with people who
(11:29):
were incarcerated under three strikes for
decades, and I think for me, those have
been some of the most transformational
conversations of my life, and they've
really become the foundation of the new
legacy that we want to create for Polly.
Aswad Thomas (11:45):
Thank you, Annie.
For those of you who are out there
listening, once again, stay tuned into
all episodes of the Crime Survivors Speak
podcast, but if you want to, you know,
learn and listen to another podcast,
The New Legacy by Jess and Annie is
another podcast to listen to as well.
Annie, I want to actually go
back to what you've mentioned.
(12:06):
So October 1st, 30th anniversary of
Polly's death was just last month, right?
From recording this episode.
You know, I know something we don't
often hear people talk about is why
anniversaries are hard for, uh, survivors.
For years, my shooting anniversary
was extremely difficult for me.
(12:27):
So we often don't talk about that.
And I think this might be important
for folks to understand about
the long term impact of trauma.
How was the 30th anniversary for you?
Annie Nichol (12:38):
I'm not gonna lie.
It was really hard.
It's true.
Anniversaries are, are often
really hard, even 30 years later.
And I, personally, I always kind of feel
the weight of them when they get closer.
And it's funny recording this
right after Halloween because I
think in a way, anniversaries are
sort of like when the veil between
(12:59):
your past and present is thinnest.
And it's easier to remember who you were
before you experienced a trauma and what
the trajectory of your life was, which
in a lot of ways can be really painful
because it's often really different
than the person you are now who spent so
much time trying to heal from that loss.
And so this year it was especially hard
(13:21):
because one of the things that happens
around round number anniversaries of
high profile cases like this is that
folks in the media see an opportunity
to profit off of a story that made
them a lot of money back in the day.
So there were some true crime productions
and publications that came out around the
anniversary this year that It honestly
(13:43):
felt pretty re traumatizing for me and
others in my family, and we knew that by
speaking out about them, that would kind
of run the risk of giving that content
more attention, so we had to sort of stay
quiet and let it happen, and it really
kind of hurt, like, I wish we could live
in a world where anniversaries are seen
as a sacred time for survivors to really
(14:03):
prioritize grief and receiving support.
And for now, I just always encourage
survivors to make sure that they are
taking good care of themselves, to be
gentle with themselves on anniversaries.
A lot of feelings can come up and
it's important that we learn to honor
these really tender moments in our
survivor experience in the ways that
(14:24):
are most conducive to our own healing.
Aswad Thomas (14:27):
So Annie and
her family, it's the 30th year
anniversary . Many of you out there,
it may be your one month anniversary,
maybe a year or five years or 15.
Annie mentioned take care of yourself.
We know anniversaries are difficult to
deal with, especially during holidays.
As Annie mentioned, be gentle with
(14:48):
yourself and your family and also take
time to honor these moments as well.
And once again, survivors who are
on their healing journey, I recently
heard about a member of Crime Survivors
for Safety and Justice in Texas, who
also was coming up on an anniversary
of losing her son to gun violence.
And she talked about around the time of
(15:09):
that anniversary, she wants to give back.
So she gives back by volunteering.
She gives back by helping
other survivors as well.
I just thought it was just so amazing
of how during this month leading
up to the anniversary, she used it
as an opportunity to give back to
other survivors and volunteer, which
is just amazing to hear survivors
(15:30):
supporting each other as well.
Annie Nichol (15:32):
It's amazing.
Aswad Thomas (15:33):
Annie, you
talked a little bit about this.
We'd love to go a little bit deeper.
You talked about how finding out about
Alliance for Safety and Justice and
other organizations and kind of this
new victims rights movement, how that
helped you heal throughout your journey.
How has your understanding of healing and
justice changed since you began this work?
(15:53):
And what have you learned from our
survivor community in hearing these
stories at things like Survivors Speak
event and being part of this podcast?
Annie Nichol (16:02):
Gosh, so much.
I was just remembering, I spoke
to a man at this year's Survivors
Speak in California, who had been
recently released from prison.
He was a restorative justice facilitator.
Somehow I always end up hanging out
with the restorative justice folks.
But he was telling me that what he had
(16:22):
realized when he was in prison was that
It wasn't up to him to be forgiven by
the people he had harmed and all he could
really strive to do was to be worthy of
their forgiveness and I've heard that kind
of grace expressed by so many different
people who have managed to heal and take
(16:43):
accountability for their actions with no
real support when they were in prison.
I can't imagine an environment that would
be harder to heal in than in a prison
and yet people do and that's shown me
that there is something in us that wants
to heal and be whole and witnessing
that in all of these conversations has
(17:05):
really meant more to me than I can say.
Growing up, I didn't really
know what healing looked like.
I didn't know that it was possible,
or that there was an alternative to
this punishment paradigm of justice.
And yet, watching the impact of Three
Strikes unfold in Polly's name, I
(17:26):
knew it didn't feel like justice.
I knew I didn't feel safe.
And I think that's because deep
down, I knew that punishment isn't...
safety.
You know, safety means giving people the
opportunity to heal, to be accountable,
and after doing that work, to take that
wisdom and experience and help others.
(17:47):
So, I mean, just so many of the
folks I've met who have experienced
incarceration or been impacted by
Three Strikes are some of the most
remarkable healers I've ever encountered.
And it's just so powerful to imagine how
many more people could be contributing
to this safety movement if we actually
gave them the resources to heal.
Aswad Thomas (18:08):
How many people
could be contributing if we gave
them the resources to heal, and
Annie, just looking at the media in
2023 and we have a very big presidential
election in this country and across
the country, we still continue to hear
this narrative by law enforcement,
by legislators and by folks who are
(18:31):
running for office, this thought
of being tough on a crime, right?
Those same narratives that we've
heard 30 years ago, and we're still
hearing those narratives about locking
people up, more law enforcement on
the street and being tough on crime
as a way to help communities be safe.
Annie, we'd love to hear from
(18:52):
you, you know, what is your
vision for safety in this country?
And what does safety mean to you?
Annie Nichol (18:58):
Yeah, I mean,
for me, safety means...
replacing systems of punishment
with systems of care.
It's a really different
way of thinking about it.
And it's a funny thing because a lot of
people, I think, who know my family's
story think that the only meaning you
can make of it is more punishment.
Like, that's the only thing that
(19:20):
most people can sort of understand.
And I've made a really
different meaning of my story.
You know, I see the idea of prevention
means going way further back than stopping
this specific crime from happening.
It means going further back in
the cycle of harm to ensure that
people don't become capable of
that kind of harm to begin with.
(19:41):
So, creating systems that are designed
to disrupt harm, abuse, neglect,
all of these systemic kinds of harm
that people are still dealing with.
That, to me, is what safety looks like.
Aswad Thomas (19:54):
That is the best
vision for safety in this country,
in our communities, is really
about replacing systems of
punishment with systems of care.
Annie, my last question for you, and just
thinking forward to the ways you want
to support and advocate for survivors.
(20:15):
We have listeners from all across
the country and all across the world.
What are some of the ideas or
things you have in mind to better
support and advocate for survivors?
Annie Nichol (20:26):
I would really like to
explore imagination and creativity as
a vital part of sustainable activism.
We see so many survivors implementing
these incredibly creative solutions in
their communities, which is really hard
work, but it's also really inspiring, and
I imagine a lot of that comes from the
(20:48):
innate creativity of people who can sort
of see through barriers to new ways of
creating safety and healing, and I know
for myself that my creative practices
give me the energy that I need to be able
to advocate for the things I care about.
Actually, I don't know if you know
this about me, Aswad, but I'm, I'm
a writer, I'm a novelist, actually.
You know, at any given moment, I probably
(21:10):
have like four novels that I'm working on.
When I'm like out in the world, half
of my brain is just like, thinking
up story ideas or like working
on, you know, solving plot holes.
And so long as long as that part of me is
kind of awake and aware and dreaming up
new stories to write, I know I can kind
of summon the strength to do hard things.
(21:30):
So yeah, I really like the idea of
working with other survivors who want to
resource themselves through creativity.
And that can come in so
many different forms, right?
Like art, music, writing, spoken
word poetry, you know, anything.
I think that imagination is a
really important part of how we
can change the world, so I love the
(21:50):
idea of just broadening the scope
of our imaginations as survivors
with as much freedom as possible.
And going forward on this podcast,
I hope we can learn more about what
people do to cultivate their own
expressions of creativity in their lives.
Aswad Thomas (22:05):
Wow.
Amazing.
Have so many ideas now.
So many ideas, uh, on what we will
do together, you know, with Crime
Survivors for Safety and Justice, just
on really elevating that creativity
of survivors across the country.
As you mentioned, so many
survivors and organizations
are just doing incredible work
(22:26):
I know my email will
be going off the hook.
My phone and calls and text messages.
Like I heard what Andy said, you know,
I've been doing this, you know, I would
love to partner with Crime Survivors
for Safety and Justice on that.
So I'm looking forward to 2024,
Annie, working more with you, you
helping to transform how we share our
stories, the creativity that we have.
(22:48):
I'm a writer
as well, I do want to plug, I did
release a children's book called
The Stars Represent You and Me.
And it's a story about the last
summer that I spent with my best
friend before he was shot and killed
in a drive by shooting in 1993.
And so part of my journey
has been writing as well.
(23:09):
So Annie, we got a lot to talk about.
I know so many of our survivors have
also wrote just amazing poetry, just
so many creative ideas, I'm looking
forward to that being another part of
our conversation as part of the Crime
Survivors Speak podcast, as well so if
you all are out there listening, this will
not be the last time you hear from Annie.
We're going to pull her
from behind the scenes more.
Annie Nichol (23:29):
Let's do it.
I'm all in.
Aswad Thomas (23:31):
Uh, let's make it happen.
You all heard it here first, y'all.
So, Annie, once again, thank you so
much for being a leader in this new
movement and being able to, with you
and Jess and your family, being able
to have that courage to change a harm
that has devastated families and
(23:52):
communities across the country, but
it helped to rebuild this new vision
of what safety looks like and it's
really about replacing those systems
of punishment with systems of care.
Annie, thank you so much for being on this
side of the Crime Survivors Speak podcast.
Once again, thank you all to everyone
that's listening to today's episode.
If you are inspired, I know many
(24:13):
of you are, if you haven't became
a member of Crime Survival Safety
and Justice, you can do that now by
going to our website at www.cssj.org,
remember you can tune into all podcast
episodes on YouTube, Apple Podcasts,
Spotify, and other streaming platforms.
We are healing through action.
(24:33):
I'm healed in so many ways just from
listening to you today, Annie, and we know
that when survivors speak, change happens.
So thank you again, Annie.
Thank you all for listening
to today's episode of the
Crime Survivors Speak podcast.
Storytelling is
really the antidote to isolation.
Stories are connective.
They bring us together, they show us
These common threads of experience
and allow us to see patterns in how
harm happens and also how cycles of
harm can be disrupted and how we tell
stories is incredibly important too,
(00:21):
all too often in the media,
stories about crime and survivors
are often sensationalized and
leveraged for political agendas.
I I have a lot of personal experience
with this and that's why I think it's so
important to offer a platform to amplify
survivors in their leadership and in their
power to talk not only about what happened
(00:42):
to them but also how they made meaning of
their experience and found deeper purpose.
Aswad Thomas (00:53):
Welcome to
Crime Survivors Speak.
My name is Aswad Thomas.
I'm the National Director of Crime
Survivors for Safety and Justice.
We are a national network of 185, 000
crime victims from across the country.
If you haven't already subscribed
to stay up to date on the latest
episodes, you can do that on YouTube.
Apple podcasts, Spotify, and other
(01:15):
streaming services by clicking on
the link on your screen or going to
the website at www.cssj.org\podcast.
Man, today is a unique episode.
So today I'll be talking
with Annie Nichol.
Annie is a survivor, a partner
of Crime Survivors for Safety and
(01:36):
Justice, and guess what y'all?
Annie served as the producer of
our Crime Survivors Speak podcast.
And like many of us, Annie
has been affected by violence.
I'm excited about this.
Welcome to the other side of the podcast.
Looking forward to today's conversation.
Annie Nichol (01:52):
Well, thanks for having me.
I think I came on as a producer when you
were just a few episodes into season one.
And I've really enjoyed
my role behind the scenes.
But you and I are always
talking about, you know, who
should we bring on the podcast?
And I don't think it ever really
occurred to us until one of our
colleagues suggested that I be a guest.
And we were like, oh
yeah, that makes sense.
But yeah, it's great to be
(02:12):
on this side of things today.
Aswad Thomas (02:13):
Awesome.
If you all are listening now, I'm
pretty sure you all can see and hear
the evolution of the podcast, right?
Since we first started last year.
That's a lot of thanks
to you, Annie, as well.
So I want to dive into that
podcast producer role, right?
So as a producer on the Crime
Survivors Speak podcast, would you
talk about how you see the role
(02:34):
of storytelling in creating more
safety and healing for survivors?
Annie Nichol (02:39):
Oh man, I believe
that storytelling is a vital
part of healing and recovery and
creating more safety for survivors.
One of the most dangerous things that
trauma does is isolate people and
make them feel alone in their pain.
And as we hear all too often on
this podcast, that message is often
(03:00):
really reinforced by the absence
of resources or support in the
aftermath of experiencing a trauma.
So, for me, storytelling is
really the antidote to isolation.
You know, stories are connective.
They bring us together, they show us
these common threads of experience
(03:21):
and allow us to see patterns in how
harm happens and also how cycles of
harm can be disrupted and how we tell
stories is incredibly important too.
As we see
all too often in the media, stories
about crime and survivors are
often really sensationalized and
leveraged for political agendas.
(03:42):
As you know, Aswad.
I I have a lot of personal experience
with this and that's why I think it's so
important to offer a platform to amplify
survivors in their leadership and in their
power to talk not only about what happened
to them but also how they made meaning of
their experience and found deeper purpose.
To some degree, we all know what harm
(04:04):
and violence looks like, but I think
not enough people know what real healing
looks like or that it's even possible, so
that's been kind of a guiding principle
for me in working on the podcast.
You know, to be honest, the
podcast has been a really
important part of my own healing.
I'm a survivor, but my experience
is really different from most of the
(04:25):
people we feature on the podcast.
I'm a survivor of a high profile crime
that people still talk about today, and
which was used by politicians at the time
to actually change the landscape of the
criminal justice system for the worse.
So, while I have...
the rare experience of being really
publicly validated as a survivor, which is
(04:46):
a privilege far too few survivors receive,
there was also a lot of exploitation.
There was a highly influential victims
rights movement that excluded and erased
survivors from marginalized communities.
So to get to work behind the scenes,
amplifying those stories of those
survivors and lifting up the incredible
work they do, for me, that's a
(05:07):
kind of counterbalancing of that
erasure that has helped me heal too.
Aswad Thomas (05:12):
Thank you for sharing that.
You know, I tell you like the importance
of sharing our story, the importance
of listening to other survivors share
their story is, you know, just been so
healing and therapeutic for so many of
us in this work and so many people who
have listened to the podcast as well.
But Annie, I want to talk a little
bit more about your survivor story.
(05:35):
What was it like to have your personal
trauma become the backdrop for a national
conversation on crime and criminal
justice over the past three decades?
Annie Nichol (05:46):
Yeah.
Well, I'll begin by talking a
little bit about what happened.
So, my sister was a girl named
Polly Class, who was kidnapped
from our bedroom 30 years ago, on
the evening of October 1st, 1993.
A man had followed Polly
home earlier that day.
He...
broke into our house while we were
sleeping, and he abducted her.
(06:08):
And there was a nationwide search
that lasted for almost two months
until Polly's body was found.
And, as you can imagine, life changed
really drastically after Polly's death.
I was six years old when
Polly was taken, which...
is too young to really
process a trauma like that.
(06:29):
Looking back, I really wish that
we had been left to kind of grieve
and heal in private, but Polly's
case had been a leading news story
the whole time she was missing.
And then the media frenzy
continued after her death.
There was this national
outpouring of grief and outrage.
And even though her killer was caught
(06:51):
and convicted, politicians realized
that they could channel that outrage
into sweeping legislative changes.
And that's how three strikes was passed
in California and across the country.
So at this point we've had three decades
of three strikes during which we've seen
mass incarceration expand exponentially.
(07:14):
You know, with the worst impact on
marginalized communities who are already
most vulnerable to crime and violence.
And it's incredibly painful to
know that my sister was used to
inflict that kind of harm on people.
It has absolutely compounded my
own trauma to see my sister's
(07:35):
innocence weaponized in that way.
And it's also really strange
to be in this moment.
where so much of the rhetoric we
hear around crime sounds so similar
to what I grew up with 30 years ago.
But one thing I know is that it's not too
late for us to learn as a society to not
(07:55):
use a tragedy like what happened to our
family to pass more harm on to others.
We really need policies that are driven
by empirical data about safety rather
than feelings of revenge and retribution.
Aswad Thomas (08:11):
Wow, Annie, thank you so
much for your courage, your bravery,
you know, your sister being here the
past three decades and just seeing
how the media and politicians use your
sister's death, you and your family's
experience, to help birth this movement
that we have called mass incarceration,
(08:33):
have helped to advance policies and
laws in California across the country
that have the Three Strikes Law.
Many of our listeners, I'm quite sure
you've heard that phrase before, but
also a lot of these sweeping laws,
you know, sentencing juveniles to
long term prison, uh, sentences, a lot
of the mandatory minimums laws that
(08:54):
we have in the 32,000 laws that have
been enacted over these past 30 years.
And a lot of that was law enforcement and
policymakers and media using your family's
experience, which has caused more
harm, right, to crime victims and also
to communities impacted by violence
(09:16):
and also impacted by incarceration.
And so just thank you again for,
for sharing your story and like so
many survivors, Annie, you know,
you now have been for the past
few years, stepping into advocacy.
We'd love to hear what made you begin
your advocacy journey, and we'd love for
you to talk more about The New Legacy,
which is a podcast that you have as well.
(09:38):
It's like working towards this
inclusion in this intersectional
victim's rights movement.
Annie Nichol (09:43):
So, it took a long time to
get ready to kind of step into this work.
Because there had been so much media
exploitation around what had happened
to Polly, you know, for many years, I
really shied away from the spotlight.
I was also really aware of how much
damage had been done by this kind of
pro punishment victims rights movement
of the 80s and 90s, which was really...
(10:05):
dominated by some very outsized
voices of victims that were
predominantly white and privileged.
So, for a long time, I just
felt really cautious knowing how
much harm had already been done.
But my sister, Jess, and I started
talking about it more and more, and
wondering if there was something we
could do to change Three Strikes.
(10:27):
So, a few years ago, we ended up cold
calling the ACLU, just kind of fully
expecting them to just suggest some,
like, local organizations we could join
or something, but the person we spoke to
was really welcoming and eager to connect
us to other people working in this space,
so they put us in touch with the Stanford
(10:47):
Three Strikes Project, who were amazing,
and then ultimately the Alliance for
Safety and Justice, and that's kind of
where we started really learning about
this survivor centered safety movement,
being led by survivors who were most
impacted by crime and mass incarceration.
So...
Jess and I kind of came in very
aware that we weren't policy experts,
(11:07):
even though these were issues
that we care very deeply about.
So we decided we need to
do an educational process.
We need to learn more.
We started our podcast, A New Legacy,
kind of as a way to both enrich our own
learning around these issues and also to
share that knowledge with people who are
wanting to learn more about this movement.
So we've had conversations with people who
(11:29):
were incarcerated under three strikes for
decades, and I think for me, those have
been some of the most transformational
conversations of my life, and they've
really become the foundation of the new
legacy that we want to create for Polly.
Aswad Thomas (11:45):
Thank you, Annie.
For those of you who are out there
listening, once again, stay tuned into
all episodes of the Crime Survivors Speak
podcast, but if you want to, you know,
learn and listen to another podcast,
The New Legacy by Jess and Annie is
another podcast to listen to as well.
Annie, I want to actually go
back to what you've mentioned.
(12:06):
So October 1st, 30th anniversary of
Polly's death was just last month, right?
From recording this episode.
You know, I know something we don't
often hear people talk about is why
anniversaries are hard for, uh, survivors.
For years, my shooting anniversary
was extremely difficult for me.
(12:27):
So we often don't talk about that.
And I think this might be important
for folks to understand about
the long term impact of trauma.
How was the 30th anniversary for you?
Annie Nichol (12:38):
I'm not gonna lie.
It was really hard.
It's true.
Anniversaries are, are often
really hard, even 30 years later.
And I, personally, I always kind of feel
the weight of them when they get closer.
And it's funny recording this
right after Halloween because I
think in a way, anniversaries are
sort of like when the veil between
(12:59):
your past and present is thinnest.
And it's easier to remember who you were
before you experienced a trauma and what
the trajectory of your life was, which
in a lot of ways can be really painful
because it's often really different
than the person you are now who spent so
much time trying to heal from that loss.
And so this year it was especially hard
(13:21):
because one of the things that happens
around round number anniversaries of
high profile cases like this is that
folks in the media see an opportunity
to profit off of a story that made
them a lot of money back in the day.
So there were some true crime productions
and publications that came out around the
anniversary this year that It honestly
(13:43):
felt pretty re traumatizing for me and
others in my family, and we knew that by
speaking out about them, that would kind
of run the risk of giving that content
more attention, so we had to sort of stay
quiet and let it happen, and it really
kind of hurt, like, I wish we could live
in a world where anniversaries are seen
as a sacred time for survivors to really
(14:03):
prioritize grief and receiving support.
And for now, I just always encourage
survivors to make sure that they are
taking good care of themselves, to be
gentle with themselves on anniversaries.
A lot of feelings can come up and
it's important that we learn to honor
these really tender moments in our
survivor experience in the ways that
(14:24):
are most conducive to our own healing.
Aswad Thomas (14:27):
So Annie and
her family, it's the 30th year
anniversary . Many of you out there,
it may be your one month anniversary,
maybe a year or five years or 15.
Annie mentioned take care of yourself.
We know anniversaries are difficult to
deal with, especially during holidays.
As Annie mentioned, be gentle with
(14:48):
yourself and your family and also take
time to honor these moments as well.
And once again, survivors who are
on their healing journey, I recently
heard about a member of Crime Survivors
for Safety and Justice in Texas, who
also was coming up on an anniversary
of losing her son to gun violence.
And she talked about around the time of
(15:09):
that anniversary, she wants to give back.
So she gives back by volunteering.
She gives back by helping
other survivors as well.
I just thought it was just so amazing
of how during this month leading
up to the anniversary, she used it
as an opportunity to give back to
other survivors and volunteer, which
is just amazing to hear survivors
(15:30):
supporting each other as well.
Annie Nichol (15:32):
It's amazing.
Aswad Thomas (15:33):
Annie, you
talked a little bit about this.
We'd love to go a little bit deeper.
You talked about how finding out about
Alliance for Safety and Justice and
other organizations and kind of this
new victims rights movement, how that
helped you heal throughout your journey.
How has your understanding of healing and
justice changed since you began this work?
(15:53):
And what have you learned from our
survivor community in hearing these
stories at things like Survivors Speak
event and being part of this podcast?
Annie Nichol (16:02):
Gosh, so much.
I was just remembering, I spoke
to a man at this year's Survivors
Speak in California, who had been
recently released from prison.
He was a restorative justice facilitator.
Somehow I always end up hanging out
with the restorative justice folks.
But he was telling me that what he had
(16:22):
realized when he was in prison was that
It wasn't up to him to be forgiven by
the people he had harmed and all he could
really strive to do was to be worthy of
their forgiveness and I've heard that kind
of grace expressed by so many different
people who have managed to heal and take
(16:43):
accountability for their actions with no
real support when they were in prison.
I can't imagine an environment that would
be harder to heal in than in a prison
and yet people do and that's shown me
that there is something in us that wants
to heal and be whole and witnessing
that in all of these conversations has
(17:05):
really meant more to me than I can say.
Growing up, I didn't really
know what healing looked like.
I didn't know that it was possible,
or that there was an alternative to
this punishment paradigm of justice.
And yet, watching the impact of Three
Strikes unfold in Polly's name, I
(17:26):
knew it didn't feel like justice.
I knew I didn't feel safe.
And I think that's because deep
down, I knew that punishment isn't...
safety.
You know, safety means giving people the
opportunity to heal, to be accountable,
and after doing that work, to take that
wisdom and experience and help others.
(17:47):
So, I mean, just so many of the
folks I've met who have experienced
incarceration or been impacted by
Three Strikes are some of the most
remarkable healers I've ever encountered.
And it's just so powerful to imagine how
many more people could be contributing
to this safety movement if we actually
gave them the resources to heal.
Aswad Thomas (18:08):
How many people
could be contributing if we gave
them the resources to heal, and
Annie, just looking at the media in
2023 and we have a very big presidential
election in this country and across
the country, we still continue to hear
this narrative by law enforcement,
by legislators and by folks who are
(18:31):
running for office, this thought
of being tough on a crime, right?
Those same narratives that we've
heard 30 years ago, and we're still
hearing those narratives about locking
people up, more law enforcement on
the street and being tough on crime
as a way to help communities be safe.
Annie, we'd love to hear from
(18:52):
you, you know, what is your
vision for safety in this country?
And what does safety mean to you?
Annie Nichol (18:58):
Yeah, I mean,
for me, safety means...
replacing systems of punishment
with systems of care.
It's a really different
way of thinking about it.
And it's a funny thing because a lot of
people, I think, who know my family's
story think that the only meaning you
can make of it is more punishment.
Like, that's the only thing that
(19:20):
most people can sort of understand.
And I've made a really
different meaning of my story.
You know, I see the idea of prevention
means going way further back than stopping
this specific crime from happening.
It means going further back in
the cycle of harm to ensure that
people don't become capable of
that kind of harm to begin with.
(19:41):
So, creating systems that are designed
to disrupt harm, abuse, neglect,
all of these systemic kinds of harm
that people are still dealing with.
That, to me, is what safety looks like.
Aswad Thomas (19:54):
That is the best
vision for safety in this country,
in our communities, is really
about replacing systems of
punishment with systems of care.
Annie, my last question for you, and just
thinking forward to the ways you want
to support and advocate for survivors.
(20:15):
We have listeners from all across
the country and all across the world.
What are some of the ideas or
things you have in mind to better
support and advocate for survivors?
Annie Nichol (20:26):
I would really like to
explore imagination and creativity as
a vital part of sustainable activism.
We see so many survivors implementing
these incredibly creative solutions in
their communities, which is really hard
work, but it's also really inspiring, and
I imagine a lot of that comes from the
(20:48):
innate creativity of people who can sort
of see through barriers to new ways of
creating safety and healing, and I know
for myself that my creative practices
give me the energy that I need to be able
to advocate for the things I care about.
Actually, I don't know if you know
this about me, Aswad, but I'm, I'm
a writer, I'm a novelist, actually.
You know, at any given moment, I probably
(21:10):
have like four novels that I'm working on.
When I'm like out in the world, half
of my brain is just like, thinking
up story ideas or like working
on, you know, solving plot holes.
And so long as long as that part of me is
kind of awake and aware and dreaming up
new stories to write, I know I can kind
of summon the strength to do hard things.
(21:30):
So yeah, I really like the idea of
working with other survivors who want to
resource themselves through creativity.
And that can come in so
many different forms, right?
Like art, music, writing, spoken
word poetry, you know, anything.
I think that imagination is a
really important part of how we
can change the world, so I love the
(21:50):
idea of just broadening the scope
of our imaginations as survivors
with as much freedom as possible.
And going forward on this podcast,
I hope we can learn more about what
people do to cultivate their own
expressions of creativity in their lives.
Aswad Thomas (22:05):
Wow.
Amazing.
Have so many ideas now.
So many ideas, uh, on what we will
do together, you know, with Crime
Survivors for Safety and Justice, just
on really elevating that creativity
of survivors across the country.
As you mentioned, so many
survivors and organizations
are just doing incredible work
(22:26):
I know my email will
be going off the hook.
My phone and calls and text messages.
Like I heard what Andy said, you know,
I've been doing this, you know, I would
love to partner with Crime Survivors
for Safety and Justice on that.
So I'm looking forward to 2024,
Annie, working more with you, you
helping to transform how we share our
stories, the creativity that we have.
(22:48):
I'm a writer
as well, I do want to plug, I did
release a children's book called
The Stars Represent You and Me.
And it's a story about the last
summer that I spent with my best
friend before he was shot and killed
in a drive by shooting in 1993.
And so part of my journey
has been writing as well.
(23:09):
So Annie, we got a lot to talk about.
I know so many of our survivors have
also wrote just amazing poetry, just
so many creative ideas, I'm looking
forward to that being another part of
our conversation as part of the Crime
Survivors Speak podcast, as well so if
you all are out there listening, this will
not be the last time you hear from Annie.
We're going to pull her
from behind the scenes more.
Annie Nichol (23:29):
Let's do it.
I'm all in.
Aswad Thomas (23:31):
Uh, let's make it happen.
You all heard it here first, y'all.
So, Annie, once again, thank you so
much for being a leader in this new
movement and being able to, with you
and Jess and your family, being able
to have that courage to change a harm
that has devastated families and
(23:52):
communities across the country, but
it helped to rebuild this new vision
of what safety looks like and it's
really about replacing those systems
of punishment with systems of care.
Annie, thank you so much for being on this
side of the Crime Survivors Speak podcast.
Once again, thank you all to everyone
that's listening to today's episode.
If you are inspired, I know many
(24:13):
of you are, if you haven't became
a member of Crime Survival Safety
and Justice, you can do that now by
going to our website at www.cssj.org,
remember you can tune into all podcast
episodes on YouTube, Apple Podcasts,
Spotify, and other streaming platforms.
We are healing through action.
(24:33):
I'm healed in so many ways just from
listening to you today, Annie, and we know
that when survivors speak, change happens.
So thank you again, Annie.
Thank you all for listening
to today's episode of the
Crime Survivors Speak podcast.
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