November 13, 2025 • 29 mins
In this episode of Crime Survivors Speak, Aswad Thomas sits down with California-based advocate Enako Jefferson, a survivor, mentor, and co-CEO of the Jireh Shalom Foundation. Enako’s story is one of deep faith, loss, and transformation—a journey that has shaped her life’s mission to bring healing to both survivors of violence and those who have caused harm. Drawing from her personal experience and decades of advocacy, Enako speaks about the importance of parole reform, trauma-informed justice, and the need to see accountability and compassion as interconnected. She reflects on how community, empathy, and faith can help repair harm and restore lives, reminding us that healing is never a solo act—it’s something we build together.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to the CrimeSurvivor Speak Podcast.
My name is Aswad Thomas.
I'm the National Director of CrimeSurvivors for Safety and Justice.
We are a growing national network,over 200,000 plus crime victims and
survivors from all across the country.
If you haven't already subscribed to stayup to date on the latest episodes, you
(00:22):
can do that on YouTube, Apple Podcasts,Spotify, and other streaming services.
Today, I'm here with anotheramazing leader Ms. Enako Jefferson.
Enako is crime survivor, humanrights advocate, and facilitator
with the Jireh-Shalom Foundation.
For over two decades, Enako has workedat the intersections of healing and
(00:46):
justice supporting both survivors ofviolence and those responsible for harm.
She's a bridge builder, a policyadvocate, a mentor, committed to creating
trauma informed alternatives to extremesentencing, including life without parole.
Through her work with organizations acrossCalifornia and beyond, including our Crime
(01:10):
Survivors for Safety and Justice, Enakobrings compassion, conviction and a deep
belief that healing is not a solo act,but something we do together in community.
Enako, welcome to the CrimeSurvivor Speak podcast.
How are you doing today?
Thank you.
It's an
honor to be in this space.
(01:31):
I do not take it lightly.
Anytime I have a chanceto share, I'm learning.
This is my classroom,
so thank you.
Awesome.
Thank you, so much.
I'm excited to speak with you today,given your work across the country,
your story, and also your expertise.
Could you share how your personalloss and faith have shaped your
(01:56):
journey into survivor leadershipand your healing philosophy?
My journey started way beforethe trauma of my son being
murdered, my nephew and my sister.
I've lost three vital peoplewithin the last 14 years.
I actually started off in this fieldof working with those who harmed.
(02:20):
I was a dance major and had to do athesis for teaching dance to children.
Every time I would do a class or go toa school, the kids would come and go.
So I had this great idea at 19years old to go to juvenile hall.
I remember walking in that door andI said, I wanna teach dance here.
(02:42):
And they kind of looked at melike, you got to be kidding.
And I'm like, no, I wannateach a dance class here.
I was able to explain my why.
Long story short, they sent me to a unitwhere kids can only come out one hour.
They were 14 to 17 and a half.
They were being assessed to besentenced as adults because of
(03:02):
the crimes that they had done.
And I remember they were saying,we're gonna go over some of
the reasons why they're here.
And I said, I don't wanna know.
I'm here to teach a dance class.
A 12 week class of doing work injuvenile hall turned into 18 months.
I began to teach dancearound the whole facility.
(03:23):
I was close to their ageand I saw the innocence.
I saw kids who were consideredthe harshest gang bangers,
and they had did some viciousthings, but I saw that innocence.
They were able to cry with me.
I taught them how we had to love eachother, how we had to work together, what I
(03:44):
had learned growing up with five siblings.
That started my journeyand then I kept dancing.
And when I got tired of dancing, Ikept saying, what am I gonna go into?
And I remember someone gave me anopportunity and they said, we have a job
in probation, do you have any experience?
And I said, no, but I told 'em aboutmy dance experience and they contacted
(04:07):
the juvenile hall that I worked at,and I didn't realize I had did over
2800 hours and it was all volunteer.
And they said, some of those kidsthat were gonna be tried as adults
did not get tried as adults becausethey were able to show that vulnerable
side to show that they still werechildren in their psych assessments.
(04:29):
They were able to cry andshow some empathy and remorse.
I had no clue of what I was doing.
And from there I took this positionand kept working in different
facilities over the last 25 plus years.
Kids that no one wanted to work with.
Level 14.
I was in the inside and I alwayswas the person in court advocating.
(04:53):
I didn't know what healing was.
I didn't know what restorativejustice was, but just for community
and all of us to get together.
If that person who created harmcould sit with that child and their
family and examine not just the fruitthat that child was bearing, but the
root causes, where did it come from?
The Campaign for the FairSentencing of Youth have this
(05:16):
logo of No Child is Born Bad,
and I really believe that.
So my work started offworking with those who harmed.
And then, 10 years later,that's when I lost my son.
I looked at what I was goingthrough as, God, you're gonna
trust me with this assignment.
You're gonna trust me withlosing a child, with shame.
(05:40):
Because I lived in a gated community.
We were helicopter, letme run your background,
type of parents.
And the shame that was put uponme when my son was killed, how
could you, you did this and that.
I chose to walk my healing in isolationwith my four and no more people that
I trust, that I knew who had my blindside, not my back, not my front, but
(06:06):
they were gonna cover my blind side.
And sometimes in this work, we arelooking for somebody to get our back, but
what about those who got our blindside?
And that's what I had.
My husband was more of community.
He healed with community.
And so we had two different sides.
The highest rates of divorcewas when someone lost a child.
(06:29):
We thought, how crazy is that?
It's because you're grieving different andyou have to honor and respect everybody's
gonna grieve different, everybody'sgonna go through a different process.
So by the grace of God, we were ableto respect and honor each other and
did not put expectations on how we weregoing to heal, how we were going to
(06:51):
show up for each other and other people.
But I had to work through a lot.
I saw children who had been harmed.
Whether when I was a social worker oran emergency response person, I saw kids
go through horrendous abuse and neglect.
But they always wanted to go home.
(07:11):
They wanted to go home even withthe person that harmed them.
And I had to learn their why.
And I learned that kids areresilient and forgiving.
So my journey has been through theeyes of children who have been harmed.
Wow.
One of the things that got me intothis work was my experience working
(07:35):
at the Connecticut Juvenile TrainingSchool, working with people that
are survivors, and also people thatcause harm, learning about what those
young men were going through, whatled them to that juvenile facility.
And I, I used to read their casefiles, you know, witnessed harm,
lost a loved one to violence, beingvictims of childhood sexual abuse,
which often we don't talk about,especially as it relates to young men.
(07:58):
So they've experienced a lot of trauma,and that led to them causing harm.
And that's when I kind of knew Ireally wanted to work on this issue
as related to criminal justice.
One of the first bills that I workedon was state of Connecticut change the
law that removed shackling of juvenileswhen they go to court proceedings.
And so, just hearing you talk about thatexperience and working with those kids and
(08:20):
how it shaped the work that you have beendoing for decades and then the horrible
experience of losing your son to violence.
You mentioned shame put uponfamilies, but also being able to
find ways to support each other.
And you've built bridges,between survivors and people
who have done harm for decades.
(08:41):
What essential lessons have you learnedfrom holding space for both sides, and how
does that inform your approach to justice?
You were talking aboutchildren and sexual abuse.
That's how I got in this fieldbecause no one wanted to work with
males who had been sexually abused.
(09:01):
And I said, I will.
And then they were maleswho had began to harm.
Yep.
And so, 20 years back, I tookall the things I learned from
pedophiles, from perpetrators andhow parents and loved ones and
caretakers protect their children.
And because I was not fearful and Ilooked at them with eyes of humanity
(09:25):
and compassion, I was able to bridgethose who harmed and those who had
been harmed and sit in this circle.
I could bring that child who hadbeen sexually abused in a circle
with that person who had abused them.
As we say today, hurt people, hurt people.
And I saw kids as young as nine yearsold who had been sexually abused
(09:48):
at three, had began to sexuallyabuse kids in the neighborhood.
So it starts young and if thatperson never gets healed or help and
they're older, I had to do stuff withpeople with 60 and 70 in elderly care
abusing people, and we don't thinkabout the importance of healing.
(10:09):
I think it's important for survivors andthose who have harmed to build bridges.
Real justice is real healing.
It takes courage
and it's okay to say thatyou're angry, you're fearful.
People are afraid to speakwas really in their heart.
I learned that going insideprisons with organizations and
(10:35):
seeing the people in there reallyhungry to heal and to make amends.
I couldn't continue to do this work andbuild bridges between those who harmed
and been harmed if I can't be real myself,if I can't be vulnerable, if I don't know
what it is to speak my truth in love.
(10:56):
And so I think it's important that,as a survivor, that we know our pain,
we know our anger, we know our loss.
And especially when we'rebuilding that bridge.
And reason why I used the term bridgeis because bridges get us moving
forward and back to different things.
I've taken what I've learnedspiritually, what I've learned
professionally, what I've learnedfrom those who harmed, and I had to
(11:18):
build my bridge first to walk across.
I love that.
Sharing our truth.
I love what you mentioned.
We take everything we've learned andput it together in our own way to
help us heal, but also to help others.
You've been an advocate for manyissues, including advocating for a
second chance for individuals sentencedto juvenile life without parole.
(11:42):
Why as a survivor, as a community leader,why is parole reform vital to you, and how
have your experiences, shaped that stance?
I think it's vital because it'snot just about accountability.
I've learned so much fromthose behind the wall.
(12:03):
And their healing and process.
I've met some amazing people who are doingtime create amazing programs for healing.
These healing programs are not just takingpeople, holding them accountable, but
giving them the tools to learn how tobe responsible for the harm they caused.
(12:25):
And we talk a lot about accountability,safety, but what about the bigger goal?
Is that person sitting before thatboard and able to show how they're
responsible for what they've doneand how they're gonna move forward?
It was a person who was incarceratedwho told me their healing took 15
(12:48):
years to realize that they had justbeen walking in accountability.
He had been sexuallyabused since he was nine.
He had to take responsibility for healingfrom that wounded little boy to adulthood.
And I was like, you should sharethat in your parole hearing.
(13:11):
Because a lot of times the parole isvery structured, very cookie cutter.
And I've had a chance to go to paroleboard conferences, working in probation,
understanding that whole process.
Sometimes it's a lack of communication,and education and training and for us all
to come together and sit with each other.
(13:33):
And those who have createdharm, they are our solution.
They're the solution.
I've learned so much about harm,not from people who've been harmed,
but those who created the harm.
I've learned so much about healingfrom those who have harmed.
And we don't ever look at that.
And I think our parole board peopleread these files and they already make
(13:58):
these prejudgments instead of lookingat, well, did that person have the right
resources and tools to be successful?
And when they're paroled,society won't allow them to be
responsible, but you can't beaccountable without responsibility.
I can hold you accountable, butI can't make you responsible.
(14:20):
That's your choice.
If you look at a lot of conversations,our legislative people, they rarely
talk about what is our responsibilityas human beings, as a society?
Man, you answered my questionin more ways than one.
Why it's so important to understand thatsurvivors have different perspectives and
(14:42):
different experiences and also, to seeindividuals as their full self, not what
they've done, but what happened to them.
When we look at the story or experiencesof someone that has caused us harm,
often that person was a victimlong before they came in contact
with the justice system and notgetting any help or support.
(15:03):
A big part of what you do here atCrime Survivor Safety and Justice and
Californians for Safety and Justice,we're launching a parole reform project.
We're gonna do a surveyand also a policy as well.
And so, with your work through theDrop LWOP, and also the Jireh Shalom
Foundation, what legislation orpolicy changes do you believe are
(15:24):
most urgently needed to expand secondchances and parole access for young
people and long serving survivors?
It's important for survivors to be at thetable because again, we are the experts.
We are the ones who've been harmed,but we also have to come to the table
ready and healed, not perfectly healed,because I think this is a continuum.
(15:50):
For survivors, you don't have tobe perfect, but you have to figure
out what is your assignment?
What is your role in whatyou've been through, and how
can you make a difference?
How can you be a voice to be heard?
Because I tell people there's a differencebetween listening to me and hearing me.
(16:11):
'cause when you hear me, there's change.
So I think it's important foreveryone to be at that table making
these decisions and policies.
I think with second chances,some people never had a chance.
And that's
one thing that has to beassessed and examined.
And when I did human traffickingwork, it took five years to
(16:34):
stop calling kids prostitutes.
That only came from training judges,gas station operators, everybody
understanding and being educated onwhat is considered sexual exploitation.
A child can't consent to sexualanything until they're 18, so why are
(16:56):
we calling them child prostitutes?
They were being sexually exploited.
You see the movement of humantrafficking, but it took years to change
the language and people's mindsets.
This parole reform, we have to startwith transforming our minds and sitting
at the table with survivors whereit's no one shoe fits all, but where
(17:21):
we can sit at the table with those inparole, with those who have harmed,
with those who answer the phone.
And like I said, I always hadthe courage to understand why,
why did that person do that?
We've gotten into a society, especiallywith parole, doing a checklist.
(17:43):
I know why this person killed thatperson, 'cause they were evil.
That's not a why.
You know, with Crime Survivorsfor Safety and Justice.
I'm, proud of the work we've beendoing this past decade and also being
able to be a convener of survivors.
You know, we work with, survivorsacross different experiences and
bring organizations together.
While we've made a lot of progress,we still have more work to do, right?
(18:07):
To build those connectionsto build those partnerships.
I've been having a lot ofconversations with the Campaign
for Fair Sentencing for Youth.
We're developing a newpartnership with our work at CSSJ.
And Enako like your faith, right?
Your identity as a faith rootedleader, you know, that shapes your
activism, your organizing deeply.
(18:27):
How does your spiritual practicesupport your advocacy work,
especially as it relates torestorative justice and parole reform?
I remember the night my son.
He lived for 10 days.
We thought he was gonna make it,but God had a different plan.
And I remember standing outside and Isaid, God, how am I get through this?
(18:50):
I've lost my son who's an identical twin.
How am I gonna get through this?
And I said, you gotta show mea sign that I'm gonna be okay.
I was near an airport and I rememberlooking up in the sky and I thought
it was a plane, but it wasn't.
It was a falling star.
He said, you're gonnahave to give to heal.
You're gonna have to give back.
(19:10):
You're gonna have to surrender to me.
I was questioning like, why,why I gotta do all that?
You know?
God was like, you gotta surrender.
And I remember telling myhusband, God said we have to give.
And so we started saying,okay, my son lived for 10 days.
Let's do 10 days of giving.
And it helped us.
So we started in Novemberwhen my son passed.
(19:32):
We did 10 days of giving andthat went on for three years.
And we would just give todifferent things and it wasn't
just about us, but it was for us.
Our healing was bigger.
And I start looking ateverything faith wise.
Everyone had to work for their healing.
(19:52):
If I look at my past, I was supposedto be an architect and a dancer,
and I ended up in this field.
So I think about reformand restorative justice.
It's not just about holding peopleaccountable and punishing them.
It's not just forgivingand then just forgetting.
It's holding our systems accountable.
(20:14):
And we can't lose compassion and empathy.
We have to fight for changewithout losing our heart.
Our CSSJ coordinator taughtus to work from our heart.
Is your heart in it?
You can always tell when someone'sheart there and not a broken heart.
(20:34):
Not a perfect heart.
My spiritual foundation helps memake decisions that are balanced.
It helps me realize that, through whatI've gone through, I have work to do.
I have to have a heart of grace andmercy, but I don't have to have a
victim mentality or a poor me, or Igotta do this because God ordained
(20:59):
me, but I do it because we're allhuman beings at the end of the day.
So why should I judge them or label them?
With restorative work, it's a way forus to problem solve, to understand
the why and to break these cycles.
I went to a Survivors Speak,got there, didn't know anyone,
(21:22):
wasn't registered, LA invited me.
I didn't see anybody I know.
A friend of mines hadsaid, look for Anna Cho
and she'll help you.
And I felt like, wow.
I found my community.
I had been invited to other things.
I had worked with other organizations,but I could never give a hundred percent.
(21:45):
I love what CSSJ has said.
Everyone has the right to heal.
When you guys asked, what does safetylook like, it became personal to me.
You can't tell me what safety is.
I can't tell you what safety is.
Safety is dependent on where your heartis and you gotta trust and believe,
and I had to learn to stop trying.
(22:07):
But to trust God, to trust inthis work, to believe in it.
Even when doubt comes, even whenthe naysayers call me crazy.
Even when legislative workchanges, I am not fearful.
It just gives me energy.
I don't care if you tellme no, maybe not yet.
I look at everything.
Oh, not yet?
Just not yet.
My faith, without it,
(22:29):
I don't know where I would be.
Justice still hasn't been done.
My son was murdered, I don'teven know where the people are.
I hope they changed their life.
That was a big division with my husbandand I. He said, I would hear you pray
for the mothers who kids had killed.
And he said, how dare shepray for those who harmed?
And I said, the only way I couldmake it through is what if my son
(22:52):
would've been on the other end?
What if your child was the onethat pulled the trigger, was
the one that assaulted someone?
What if you were in courton the opposite side?
How would it look?
I've seen mothers on both sides.
One child being sentenced, andone child who they have lost and
(23:16):
another person's being convicted.
Those are things that I look at.
What would my story be?
And I don't do this work becauseof the trauma I've been through.
I've been doing this before the trauma.
Like I said, my assignment changed.
And I thank CSSJ because Iwouldn't have been able to see
it through a different lens.
But it was your organization, theCampaign for the Fair Sentencing
(23:39):
of Youth, Drop LWOP, Jireh-Shalomthat taught me surviving.
It was an assignment.
That's why we developed this podcast, toprovide opportunity for individuals like
you to not only share your stories, butthe work that you all have been doing.
We can't take back what we went through.
(24:00):
This work is extremely difficult,extremely hard every single day.
Waking up every single day seeingharm that continues to happen.
But I feel so blessed to be partof our organization that provided
me with the opportunity not only toheal, but to connect with individuals
(24:22):
like you, travel the country and meetsome of our superheroes within CSSJ.
And so Enako, this hasbeen a great conversation.
Before we wrap up today's episode,what message do you want most to share
with survivors, especially those whomay feel overlooked or powerless?
I always look at, we're notbroken, we're just being rebuilt.
(24:43):
Change starts with a little bitand we talk about self-care.
And your self-care today mayjust be brushing your teeth.
And we forget about those basics.
We think about self-care as goingto the spa, taking a trip, but those
who feel like they're not beingheard, don't stop, don't give up.
(25:04):
I remember hearing don't give upfive minutes before your miracle.
And people talk about miracles,but you've had to gone through
something drastic to get a miracle.
And so we can't use words loosely.
Don't ever forget, you're not forgotten.
You're not alone.
There's mercy and grace, notjust for those who have harmed,
(25:27):
but those who have been harmed.
And you have to keep moving forward.
Find your community, andlook at everything healing.
Find the tools that helped youbefore the trauma and pull on those.
Because sometimes, we forget what welearned from big mama, from grandmother,
from working, from our coworkers.
(25:49):
Healing is not just sitting on a couch.
Find what works for you and give back.
If you're broken and can't beheard, find somewhere where you
can volunteer, you can give back.
Not focus so much on, issomeone gonna hear me?
Am I gonna, because you know what,people learn from watching us.
(26:11):
I tell people start giving back.
And when I told about the 10 Daysof Giving, I never knew if I
was on right track until April.
My son was born April 20thand my first grandson was
supposed to be born April 26th.
My grandson came early, he came on April10th, 10 days before his uncle's birthday.
(26:38):
Wow.
Three years later.
So why am I doing this?
Sounds crazy.
It had been three years of giving.
Now we don't just do 10 daysof giving from the day he was
shot till the day he died.
We do 10 days of giving fromApril 10th to April 20th.
And we give to ourcommunity, we give love.
(27:00):
Like I told my sons and anyone Ideal with healing, like the three
little pigs, I had to learn whatwas my house gonna be built of.
Because we're gonna have storms.
When my son was killed, six monthslater, my nephew, five years
later, my sister was killed.
My grandson, nine months lost his life.
(27:22):
Not by violence, but medical reasons.
My brother six months later was murdered.
My husband died sixmonths after his sister.
So I was saying, like the threelittle pigs in closing, what is
your house gonna be built of?
Because a storm is going to come, I wantmy place to be, where those still in their
(27:46):
brokenness, still in their healing, stillin their rebuilding can rest in our home.
And if I build a home a straw,I will destroy all of us.
So I just take that analogy of thethree little pigs and say, what are you
gonna build your house with so that youjust don't sit in that house alone, but
other people can come there to heal?
(28:07):
Wow, you all heard it from thesource herself, Miss Enako.
Survivors out there, you're not alone.
You know, we all have to stop andrest, but we gotta keep going.
We gotta keep moving forward.
Find the tools, you know,that's helped you along the way.
Tools your parents, or your siblingsor your grandparents taught you.
(28:28):
Find those tools, to continue tohelp you move through the trauma.
Also, find your community, connect withother survivors, to help each other.
Give back, right?
Give back to yourself.
Also, give back to others as well.
Enako joined Crime Survivor forSafety and Justice five years ago.
And look at the amazingwork she's been doing.
So, If you want to become a memberof Crime Survivors for Safety and
(28:51):
Justice, there are no dues or fees.
You can sign up on our websiteat www.cssj.org to join Crimes
Survivors for Safety and Justice.
Listen to the podcast, share the podcast.
As survivors, we arehealing through action.
When survivors speak, change happens.
Welcome to the CrimeSurvivor Speak Podcast.
My name is Aswad Thomas.
I'm the National Director of CrimeSurvivors for Safety and Justice.
We are a growing national network,over 200,000 plus crime victims and
survivors from all across the country.
If you haven't already subscribed to stayup to date on the latest episodes, you
(00:22):
can do that on YouTube, Apple Podcasts,Spotify, and other streaming services.
Today, I'm here with anotheramazing leader Ms. Enako Jefferson.
Enako is crime survivor, humanrights advocate, and facilitator
with the Jireh-Shalom Foundation.
For over two decades, Enako has workedat the intersections of healing and
(00:46):
justice supporting both survivors ofviolence and those responsible for harm.
She's a bridge builder, a policyadvocate, a mentor, committed to creating
trauma informed alternatives to extremesentencing, including life without parole.
Through her work with organizations acrossCalifornia and beyond, including our Crime
(01:10):
Survivors for Safety and Justice, Enakobrings compassion, conviction and a deep
belief that healing is not a solo act,but something we do together in community.
Enako, welcome to the CrimeSurvivor Speak podcast.
How are you doing today?
Thank you.
It's an
honor to be in this space.
(01:31):
I do not take it lightly.
Anytime I have a chanceto share, I'm learning.
This is my classroom,
so thank you.
Awesome.
Thank you, so much.
I'm excited to speak with you today,given your work across the country,
your story, and also your expertise.
Could you share how your personalloss and faith have shaped your
(01:56):
journey into survivor leadershipand your healing philosophy?
My journey started way beforethe trauma of my son being
murdered, my nephew and my sister.
I've lost three vital peoplewithin the last 14 years.
I actually started off in this fieldof working with those who harmed.
(02:20):
I was a dance major and had to do athesis for teaching dance to children.
Every time I would do a class or go toa school, the kids would come and go.
So I had this great idea at 19years old to go to juvenile hall.
I remember walking in that door andI said, I wanna teach dance here.
(02:42):
And they kind of looked at melike, you got to be kidding.
And I'm like, no, I wannateach a dance class here.
I was able to explain my why.
Long story short, they sent me to a unitwhere kids can only come out one hour.
They were 14 to 17 and a half.
They were being assessed to besentenced as adults because of
(03:02):
the crimes that they had done.
And I remember they were saying,we're gonna go over some of
the reasons why they're here.
And I said, I don't wanna know.
I'm here to teach a dance class.
A 12 week class of doing work injuvenile hall turned into 18 months.
I began to teach dancearound the whole facility.
(03:23):
I was close to their ageand I saw the innocence.
I saw kids who were consideredthe harshest gang bangers,
and they had did some viciousthings, but I saw that innocence.
They were able to cry with me.
I taught them how we had to love eachother, how we had to work together, what I
(03:44):
had learned growing up with five siblings.
That started my journeyand then I kept dancing.
And when I got tired of dancing, Ikept saying, what am I gonna go into?
And I remember someone gave me anopportunity and they said, we have a job
in probation, do you have any experience?
And I said, no, but I told 'em aboutmy dance experience and they contacted
(04:07):
the juvenile hall that I worked at,and I didn't realize I had did over
2800 hours and it was all volunteer.
And they said, some of those kidsthat were gonna be tried as adults
did not get tried as adults becausethey were able to show that vulnerable
side to show that they still werechildren in their psych assessments.
(04:29):
They were able to cry andshow some empathy and remorse.
I had no clue of what I was doing.
And from there I took this positionand kept working in different
facilities over the last 25 plus years.
Kids that no one wanted to work with.
Level 14.
I was in the inside and I alwayswas the person in court advocating.
(04:53):
I didn't know what healing was.
I didn't know what restorativejustice was, but just for community
and all of us to get together.
If that person who created harmcould sit with that child and their
family and examine not just the fruitthat that child was bearing, but the
root causes, where did it come from?
The Campaign for the FairSentencing of Youth have this
(05:16):
logo of No Child is Born Bad,
and I really believe that.
So my work started offworking with those who harmed.
And then, 10 years later,that's when I lost my son.
I looked at what I was goingthrough as, God, you're gonna
trust me with this assignment.
You're gonna trust me withlosing a child, with shame.
(05:40):
Because I lived in a gated community.
We were helicopter, letme run your background,
type of parents.
And the shame that was put uponme when my son was killed, how
could you, you did this and that.
I chose to walk my healing in isolationwith my four and no more people that
I trust, that I knew who had my blindside, not my back, not my front, but
(06:06):
they were gonna cover my blind side.
And sometimes in this work, we arelooking for somebody to get our back, but
what about those who got our blindside?
And that's what I had.
My husband was more of community.
He healed with community.
And so we had two different sides.
The highest rates of divorcewas when someone lost a child.
(06:29):
We thought, how crazy is that?
It's because you're grieving different andyou have to honor and respect everybody's
gonna grieve different, everybody'sgonna go through a different process.
So by the grace of God, we were ableto respect and honor each other and
did not put expectations on how we weregoing to heal, how we were going to
(06:51):
show up for each other and other people.
But I had to work through a lot.
I saw children who had been harmed.
Whether when I was a social worker oran emergency response person, I saw kids
go through horrendous abuse and neglect.
But they always wanted to go home.
(07:11):
They wanted to go home even withthe person that harmed them.
And I had to learn their why.
And I learned that kids areresilient and forgiving.
So my journey has been through theeyes of children who have been harmed.
Wow.
One of the things that got me intothis work was my experience working
(07:35):
at the Connecticut Juvenile TrainingSchool, working with people that
are survivors, and also people thatcause harm, learning about what those
young men were going through, whatled them to that juvenile facility.
And I, I used to read their casefiles, you know, witnessed harm,
lost a loved one to violence, beingvictims of childhood sexual abuse,
which often we don't talk about,especially as it relates to young men.
(07:58):
So they've experienced a lot of trauma,and that led to them causing harm.
And that's when I kind of knew Ireally wanted to work on this issue
as related to criminal justice.
One of the first bills that I workedon was state of Connecticut change the
law that removed shackling of juvenileswhen they go to court proceedings.
And so, just hearing you talk about thatexperience and working with those kids and
(08:20):
how it shaped the work that you have beendoing for decades and then the horrible
experience of losing your son to violence.
You mentioned shame put uponfamilies, but also being able to
find ways to support each other.
And you've built bridges,between survivors and people
who have done harm for decades.
(08:41):
What essential lessons have you learnedfrom holding space for both sides, and how
does that inform your approach to justice?
You were talking aboutchildren and sexual abuse.
That's how I got in this fieldbecause no one wanted to work with
males who had been sexually abused.
(09:01):
And I said, I will.
And then they were maleswho had began to harm.
Yep.
And so, 20 years back, I tookall the things I learned from
pedophiles, from perpetrators andhow parents and loved ones and
caretakers protect their children.
And because I was not fearful and Ilooked at them with eyes of humanity
(09:25):
and compassion, I was able to bridgethose who harmed and those who had
been harmed and sit in this circle.
I could bring that child who hadbeen sexually abused in a circle
with that person who had abused them.
As we say today, hurt people, hurt people.
And I saw kids as young as nine yearsold who had been sexually abused
(09:48):
at three, had began to sexuallyabuse kids in the neighborhood.
So it starts young and if thatperson never gets healed or help and
they're older, I had to do stuff withpeople with 60 and 70 in elderly care
abusing people, and we don't thinkabout the importance of healing.
(10:09):
I think it's important for survivors andthose who have harmed to build bridges.
Real justice is real healing.
It takes courage
and it's okay to say thatyou're angry, you're fearful.
People are afraid to speakwas really in their heart.
I learned that going insideprisons with organizations and
(10:35):
seeing the people in there reallyhungry to heal and to make amends.
I couldn't continue to do this work andbuild bridges between those who harmed
and been harmed if I can't be real myself,if I can't be vulnerable, if I don't know
what it is to speak my truth in love.
(10:56):
And so I think it's important that,as a survivor, that we know our pain,
we know our anger, we know our loss.
And especially when we'rebuilding that bridge.
And reason why I used the term bridgeis because bridges get us moving
forward and back to different things.
I've taken what I've learnedspiritually, what I've learned
professionally, what I've learnedfrom those who harmed, and I had to
(11:18):
build my bridge first to walk across.
I love that.
Sharing our truth.
I love what you mentioned.
We take everything we've learned andput it together in our own way to
help us heal, but also to help others.
You've been an advocate for manyissues, including advocating for a
second chance for individuals sentencedto juvenile life without parole.
(11:42):
Why as a survivor, as a community leader,why is parole reform vital to you, and how
have your experiences, shaped that stance?
I think it's vital because it'snot just about accountability.
I've learned so much fromthose behind the wall.
(12:03):
And their healing and process.
I've met some amazing people who are doingtime create amazing programs for healing.
These healing programs are not just takingpeople, holding them accountable, but
giving them the tools to learn how tobe responsible for the harm they caused.
(12:25):
And we talk a lot about accountability,safety, but what about the bigger goal?
Is that person sitting before thatboard and able to show how they're
responsible for what they've doneand how they're gonna move forward?
It was a person who was incarceratedwho told me their healing took 15
(12:48):
years to realize that they had justbeen walking in accountability.
He had been sexuallyabused since he was nine.
He had to take responsibility for healingfrom that wounded little boy to adulthood.
And I was like, you should sharethat in your parole hearing.
(13:11):
Because a lot of times the parole isvery structured, very cookie cutter.
And I've had a chance to go to paroleboard conferences, working in probation,
understanding that whole process.
Sometimes it's a lack of communication,and education and training and for us all
to come together and sit with each other.
(13:33):
And those who have createdharm, they are our solution.
They're the solution.
I've learned so much about harm,not from people who've been harmed,
but those who created the harm.
I've learned so much about healingfrom those who have harmed.
And we don't ever look at that.
And I think our parole board peopleread these files and they already make
(13:58):
these prejudgments instead of lookingat, well, did that person have the right
resources and tools to be successful?
And when they're paroled,society won't allow them to be
responsible, but you can't beaccountable without responsibility.
I can hold you accountable, butI can't make you responsible.
(14:20):
That's your choice.
If you look at a lot of conversations,our legislative people, they rarely
talk about what is our responsibilityas human beings, as a society?
Man, you answered my questionin more ways than one.
Why it's so important to understand thatsurvivors have different perspectives and
(14:42):
different experiences and also, to seeindividuals as their full self, not what
they've done, but what happened to them.
When we look at the story or experiencesof someone that has caused us harm,
often that person was a victimlong before they came in contact
with the justice system and notgetting any help or support.
(15:03):
A big part of what you do here atCrime Survivor Safety and Justice and
Californians for Safety and Justice,we're launching a parole reform project.
We're gonna do a surveyand also a policy as well.
And so, with your work through theDrop LWOP, and also the Jireh Shalom
Foundation, what legislation orpolicy changes do you believe are
(15:24):
most urgently needed to expand secondchances and parole access for young
people and long serving survivors?
It's important for survivors to be at thetable because again, we are the experts.
We are the ones who've been harmed,but we also have to come to the table
ready and healed, not perfectly healed,because I think this is a continuum.
(15:50):
For survivors, you don't have tobe perfect, but you have to figure
out what is your assignment?
What is your role in whatyou've been through, and how
can you make a difference?
How can you be a voice to be heard?
Because I tell people there's a differencebetween listening to me and hearing me.
(16:11):
'cause when you hear me, there's change.
So I think it's important foreveryone to be at that table making
these decisions and policies.
I think with second chances,some people never had a chance.
And that's
one thing that has to beassessed and examined.
And when I did human traffickingwork, it took five years to
(16:34):
stop calling kids prostitutes.
That only came from training judges,gas station operators, everybody
understanding and being educated onwhat is considered sexual exploitation.
A child can't consent to sexualanything until they're 18, so why are
(16:56):
we calling them child prostitutes?
They were being sexually exploited.
You see the movement of humantrafficking, but it took years to change
the language and people's mindsets.
This parole reform, we have to startwith transforming our minds and sitting
at the table with survivors whereit's no one shoe fits all, but where
(17:21):
we can sit at the table with those inparole, with those who have harmed,
with those who answer the phone.
And like I said, I always hadthe courage to understand why,
why did that person do that?
We've gotten into a society, especiallywith parole, doing a checklist.
(17:43):
I know why this person killed thatperson, 'cause they were evil.
That's not a why.
You know, with Crime Survivorsfor Safety and Justice.
I'm, proud of the work we've beendoing this past decade and also being
able to be a convener of survivors.
You know, we work with, survivorsacross different experiences and
bring organizations together.
While we've made a lot of progress,we still have more work to do, right?
(18:07):
To build those connectionsto build those partnerships.
I've been having a lot ofconversations with the Campaign
for Fair Sentencing for Youth.
We're developing a newpartnership with our work at CSSJ.
And Enako like your faith, right?
Your identity as a faith rootedleader, you know, that shapes your
activism, your organizing deeply.
(18:27):
How does your spiritual practicesupport your advocacy work,
especially as it relates torestorative justice and parole reform?
I remember the night my son.
He lived for 10 days.
We thought he was gonna make it,but God had a different plan.
And I remember standing outside and Isaid, God, how am I get through this?
(18:50):
I've lost my son who's an identical twin.
How am I gonna get through this?
And I said, you gotta show mea sign that I'm gonna be okay.
I was near an airport and I rememberlooking up in the sky and I thought
it was a plane, but it wasn't.
It was a falling star.
He said, you're gonnahave to give to heal.
You're gonna have to give back.
(19:10):
You're gonna have to surrender to me.
I was questioning like, why,why I gotta do all that?
You know?
God was like, you gotta surrender.
And I remember telling myhusband, God said we have to give.
And so we started saying,okay, my son lived for 10 days.
Let's do 10 days of giving.
And it helped us.
So we started in Novemberwhen my son passed.
(19:32):
We did 10 days of giving andthat went on for three years.
And we would just give todifferent things and it wasn't
just about us, but it was for us.
Our healing was bigger.
And I start looking ateverything faith wise.
Everyone had to work for their healing.
(19:52):
If I look at my past, I was supposedto be an architect and a dancer,
and I ended up in this field.
So I think about reformand restorative justice.
It's not just about holding peopleaccountable and punishing them.
It's not just forgivingand then just forgetting.
It's holding our systems accountable.
(20:14):
And we can't lose compassion and empathy.
We have to fight for changewithout losing our heart.
Our CSSJ coordinator taughtus to work from our heart.
Is your heart in it?
You can always tell when someone'sheart there and not a broken heart.
(20:34):
Not a perfect heart.
My spiritual foundation helps memake decisions that are balanced.
It helps me realize that, through whatI've gone through, I have work to do.
I have to have a heart of grace andmercy, but I don't have to have a
victim mentality or a poor me, or Igotta do this because God ordained
(20:59):
me, but I do it because we're allhuman beings at the end of the day.
So why should I judge them or label them?
With restorative work, it's a way forus to problem solve, to understand
the why and to break these cycles.
I went to a Survivors Speak,got there, didn't know anyone,
(21:22):
wasn't registered, LA invited me.
I didn't see anybody I know.
A friend of mines hadsaid, look for Anna Cho
and she'll help you.
And I felt like, wow.
I found my community.
I had been invited to other things.
I had worked with other organizations,but I could never give a hundred percent.
(21:45):
I love what CSSJ has said.
Everyone has the right to heal.
When you guys asked, what does safetylook like, it became personal to me.
You can't tell me what safety is.
I can't tell you what safety is.
Safety is dependent on where your heartis and you gotta trust and believe,
and I had to learn to stop trying.
(22:07):
But to trust God, to trust inthis work, to believe in it.
Even when doubt comes, even whenthe naysayers call me crazy.
Even when legislative workchanges, I am not fearful.
It just gives me energy.
I don't care if you tellme no, maybe not yet.
I look at everything.
Oh, not yet?
Just not yet.
My faith, without it,
(22:29):
I don't know where I would be.
Justice still hasn't been done.
My son was murdered, I don'teven know where the people are.
I hope they changed their life.
That was a big division with my husbandand I. He said, I would hear you pray
for the mothers who kids had killed.
And he said, how dare shepray for those who harmed?
And I said, the only way I couldmake it through is what if my son
(22:52):
would've been on the other end?
What if your child was the onethat pulled the trigger, was
the one that assaulted someone?
What if you were in courton the opposite side?
How would it look?
I've seen mothers on both sides.
One child being sentenced, andone child who they have lost and
(23:16):
another person's being convicted.
Those are things that I look at.
What would my story be?
And I don't do this work becauseof the trauma I've been through.
I've been doing this before the trauma.
Like I said, my assignment changed.
And I thank CSSJ because Iwouldn't have been able to see
it through a different lens.
But it was your organization, theCampaign for the Fair Sentencing
(23:39):
of Youth, Drop LWOP, Jireh-Shalomthat taught me surviving.
It was an assignment.
That's why we developed this podcast, toprovide opportunity for individuals like
you to not only share your stories, butthe work that you all have been doing.
We can't take back what we went through.
(24:00):
This work is extremely difficult,extremely hard every single day.
Waking up every single day seeingharm that continues to happen.
But I feel so blessed to be partof our organization that provided
me with the opportunity not only toheal, but to connect with individuals
(24:22):
like you, travel the country and meetsome of our superheroes within CSSJ.
And so Enako, this hasbeen a great conversation.
Before we wrap up today's episode,what message do you want most to share
with survivors, especially those whomay feel overlooked or powerless?
I always look at, we're notbroken, we're just being rebuilt.
(24:43):
Change starts with a little bitand we talk about self-care.
And your self-care today mayjust be brushing your teeth.
And we forget about those basics.
We think about self-care as goingto the spa, taking a trip, but those
who feel like they're not beingheard, don't stop, don't give up.
(25:04):
I remember hearing don't give upfive minutes before your miracle.
And people talk about miracles,but you've had to gone through
something drastic to get a miracle.
And so we can't use words loosely.
Don't ever forget, you're not forgotten.
You're not alone.
There's mercy and grace, notjust for those who have harmed,
(25:27):
but those who have been harmed.
And you have to keep moving forward.
Find your community, andlook at everything healing.
Find the tools that helped youbefore the trauma and pull on those.
Because sometimes, we forget what welearned from big mama, from grandmother,
from working, from our coworkers.
(25:49):
Healing is not just sitting on a couch.
Find what works for you and give back.
If you're broken and can't beheard, find somewhere where you
can volunteer, you can give back.
Not focus so much on, issomeone gonna hear me?
Am I gonna, because you know what,people learn from watching us.
(26:11):
I tell people start giving back.
And when I told about the 10 Daysof Giving, I never knew if I
was on right track until April.
My son was born April 20thand my first grandson was
supposed to be born April 26th.
My grandson came early, he came on April10th, 10 days before his uncle's birthday.
(26:38):
Wow.
Three years later.
So why am I doing this?
Sounds crazy.
It had been three years of giving.
Now we don't just do 10 daysof giving from the day he was
shot till the day he died.
We do 10 days of giving fromApril 10th to April 20th.
And we give to ourcommunity, we give love.
(27:00):
Like I told my sons and anyone Ideal with healing, like the three
little pigs, I had to learn whatwas my house gonna be built of.
Because we're gonna have storms.
When my son was killed, six monthslater, my nephew, five years
later, my sister was killed.
My grandson, nine months lost his life.
(27:22):
Not by violence, but medical reasons.
My brother six months later was murdered.
My husband died sixmonths after his sister.
So I was saying, like the threelittle pigs in closing, what is
your house gonna be built of?
Because a storm is going to come, I wantmy place to be, where those still in their
(27:46):
brokenness, still in their healing, stillin their rebuilding can rest in our home.
And if I build a home a straw,I will destroy all of us.
So I just take that analogy of thethree little pigs and say, what are you
gonna build your house with so that youjust don't sit in that house alone, but
other people can come there to heal?
(28:07):
Wow, you all heard it from thesource herself, Miss Enako.
Survivors out there, you're not alone.
You know, we all have to stop andrest, but we gotta keep going.
We gotta keep moving forward.
Find the tools, you know,that's helped you along the way.
Tools your parents, or your siblingsor your grandparents taught you.
(28:28):
Find those tools, to continue tohelp you move through the trauma.
Also, find your community, connect withother survivors, to help each other.
Give back, right?
Give back to yourself.
Also, give back to others as well.
Enako joined Crime Survivor forSafety and Justice five years ago.
And look at the amazingwork she's been doing.
So, If you want to become a memberof Crime Survivors for Safety and
(28:51):
Justice, there are no dues or fees.
You can sign up on our websiteat www.cssj.org to join Crimes
Survivors for Safety and Justice.
Listen to the podcast, share the podcast.
As survivors, we arehealing through action.
When survivors speak, change happens.
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