September 5, 2023 • 27 mins
Aswad Thomas is a familiar voice in advocating for survivors–and a familiar voice on this podcast. But not everyone knows the profound journey that brought Aswad to be the National Director for Crime Survivors for Safety and Justice. In this episode, guest interviewer Jonathon Lewis flips the script to ask Aswad about his survivor story and path to leadership. From growing up in communities marked by crime and poverty, Aswad defied the odds as a straight-A student and the first in his family to graduate college. But shortly before he was to begin a professional international basketball career, Aswad’s life changed overnight when he became a victim of gun violence. While on the operating table, he learned the surgeon removing his bullets had previously operated on one of his teenage assailants, who had once been a victim as well. This realization catalyzed Aswad’s drive to disrupt the cycle of harm that left too many victims like himself without compensation or support of any kind after life-altering trauma. Aswad's story is one of resilience and reimagining justice, revealing how healing can become the impetus for sweeping change.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Aswad Thomas (00:00):
For me, my healing played a huge part in me being able
to forgive those two young men whowere involved in my shooting, but
also knew that here in the UnitedStates, we have a way of holding
people accountable through punishment.
I wanted a process that would provideaccountability, but also make sure that
(00:21):
we are providing rehabilitation forthose inside of the justice system.
Welcome to this week's episodeof Crime Survivors Speak.
My name is Aswad Thomas.
I'm the National Director of CrimeSurvivors for Safety and Justice.
(00:41):
We are a national network of 185,000crime victims from across the country.
If you haven't already subscribed, youcan stay up-to-date on the latest episodes
by going to YouTube, Apple Podcast,Spotify and other streaming services by
clicking the link on your screen or goingto the website at www.CSSJ.org/podcast.
(01:08):
So excited.
We're kicking off season two of theCrime Survivors Speak podcast and
we're welcoming back Jonathon Lewis.
Uh, we interviewed Jonathon in ourlast season about his work as our
Crime Survivors for Safety and JusticeNational Training Director to help
survivor leaders become strong advocates.
And during that interview,Jonathon had some questions for me.
(01:32):
So today, I'm going to switchroles from being the interviewer
to being the interviewee.
So, thanks so much for comingback to the show, Jonathon.
Jonathon Lewis (01:41):
Thank you Aswad and welcome to everyone who's listening.
Today, it is my pleasure to get tointerview you Aswad as a person who
is my leader but also an advocatein this fight with Crime Survivors
from all across the country.
To kick things off Aswad, could you tellus a bit about where you grew up, and
(02:01):
what was your ambitions and dreams whenyou were growing up as a younger person?
Aswad Thomas (02:06):
So I was born in Hartford, Connecticut, but I spent
most of my childhood in Highland Park,Michigan, which is a city within the
city limits of Detroit, Michigan.
I'm the youngest of five boys.
I grew up in a single parenthousehold with my four brothers
(02:26):
in two communities riddled withpoverty; not a lot of opportunities
for jobs; wasn't a lot of resources.
And both of those communitiesin Hartford and in Detroit have
been devastated by violence.
Both of those cities that I grew up in,you know, there wasn't a lot of hope
for, uh, young Black boys like myself.
(02:49):
And for me, that hope startedon the basketball court.
At a very young age, basketball wasn'tjust an outlet for me to escape from
my neighborhood, but also was anoutlet for me to escape the negative
influences that surrounded me.
And it was often the only safeplace that I had in my neighborhood.
So I spent most of my timeactually playing basketball or, um,
(03:13):
attending school, and also spenta lot of my time hanging out with
my childhood best friend, Ruben.
Ruben and I, we were straight A students.
We spent most of our timeplaying basketball together.
We walked to school together.
Before we had to take a test,we would stop at the corner
store, get a box of nerds.
We ate the nerds thinking that it wouldhelp us be smarter on, on our tests.
(03:37):
And so we did everythingtogether as kids, Ruben and I.
But unfortunately, um, in 1993, just weeksbefore starting the fifth grade, my best
friend Ruben, at just 10 years old, wasshot and killed in a drive-by shooting.
Ruben's death changed bylife for a very long time.
(03:57):
And Ruben was the first friendthat I lost to violence, but
unfortunately, he wouldn't be the last.
And losing him made me dedicate my lifeto playing basketball and eventually
trying to make it out of my neighborhood.
Jonathon Lewis (04:09):
Wow.
Thank you for sharing that.
And I wanna fast-forward to a pointin your life that brought you a
little bit into what you do now.
I know you tell this story prettyoften, which doesn't necessarily mean
that it gets easier to talk about.
But for the folks listening whoaren't familiar with your story,
would you share what happened and howthat brought you to this work now?
Aswad Thomas (04:31):
Yeah, so, you know, eventually I did actually make it
out of my neighborhood and I wenton to play college basketball.
And I also became the first male in myfamily to ever graduate from college.
I still remember walking acrossthat stage and seeing my mother, you
know with this bright smile on herface because her youngest son, her
(04:53):
baby boy became a college graduate.
So this is back in 2009, whichwas the highest point in my life.
Had just graduated from college and I hadsigned with a basketball agent to start my
professional basketball career in Europe.
So, something, two things that I'veworked so hard for, my academics and
(05:15):
also playing basketball, those are twothings that I finally achieved in 2009.
So that was like thehighest point of my life.
Unfortunately, that same summer, itquickly became the lowest point in my
life when days before I was supposedto go over to Europe to start my
professional basketball career, I wasshot twice in my back while leaving a
(05:39):
corner store in Hartford, Connecticut.
And those bullets ended myprofessional basketball career, and
quite frankly, almost ended my life.
I remember waking up in the emergency roomand seeing my mother and seeing my father
and my, my siblings, um, you know, just inthat emergency room in tears and crying.
(06:04):
And then a doctor walked over to me.
Everything kind of felt like a dream.
I didn't know why I waslaying in this emergency room.
I didn't know why my family was in tears.
As I was trying to speak, I noticedthere were tubes everywhere.
And the doctor came overto my side and said, "Mr.
(06:24):
Thomas, you were shot twice in your back.
And we don't know if youhave been paralyzed or not."
And at that very moment, I kinda justbroke down because it finally hit me
that I became a victim of gun violence.
And the first thought that I had was,will I ever play basketball again?
(06:48):
Then the second thought, wouldI ever be able to walk again?
That moment, everything changed, uh,for me, of becoming a victim of gun
violence, but also being released fromthat same hospital, having to live in
the same neighborhood where I was shotwas nother traumatic experience because
the doctors told me about my physicalchallenges that I would have, but nobody
(07:12):
prepared me for the psychological effectsof being a victim of gun violence.
So I was dealing with the PTSD, uh,dealing with the depression, the, the
isolation, the nightmares, the physicalpain, and also the traumatic experience
of being a victim of gun violence andhaving to live in the same place you
(07:33):
were shot without any, any support.
Jonathon Lewis (07:35):
Could you share, if you don't mind, just a little
bit, like what support did you get?
Did you receive victim's compensation?
Aswad Thomas (07:44):
I was released from, you know, the hospital,
as I mentioned, back to the samecommunity, uh, where I was shot.
No followup from the hospital.
I remember law enforcement coming tovisit me several times during my recovery.
I just remember every time law enforcementcame to visit me, it always contributed
(08:04):
to my stress and my a- anxiety, duringthose conversations with law enforcement.
They never shared any information aboutthe victim's compensation program, or
told me about victim services, nor didthey even connect me to a victim advocate
in their department that's supposedto work with victims like myself.
(08:25):
And so my family and I never received anyvictim services, any victim compensation
or mental health services, uh, to help medeal with being a victim of gun violence.
And I remember, like, a I was recovering,I was able to walk again, um, was able
to talk more often than I was before,I remember, as I was experiencing those
(08:48):
nightmares and those traumatic experiencesof being a victim of gun violence, often
thought like, am I the only person whohave went through this experience of
being a victim and not getting any help.
Um, and so I started to think aboutlike who else do I know who's been
a victim who may have got any help?
Um, so there was a fewthings that I actually did.
I called my father.
(09:09):
My father who got shot inhis chest in the 1980s.
I called him and I said, "Hey, Dad, whenyou got shot, did you get any help?"
And he said, "No."
And hung up the phone on me.
So then I called my second-oldestbrother who also got shot in
his back in the late 1990s.
I said, "Hey, Bro, when you gotshot, did you get any help?"
(09:29):
And the answer was no.
And then I talked to my, my first cousinwho got shot in the early 2000s, and
as a result of that shooting, he'sbeen paralyzed from the waist down.
I asked him that same question (09:38):
When you got shot, did you get any help?
And the answer was no.
So, Jonathon, like, in my immediatefamily, five out of the 10 males
have been victims of gun violencebut none of us ever received any
victim services or was made aware ofthe victim's compensation program.
Jonathon Lewis (09:58):
Thank you for sharing that.
And so many other people who are victimsof crime, particularly victims of violent
crimes don't get access to victim'scomp, right, or don't know about it.
In our recent study with Crime Survivorsof Safety and Justice, we found that
47% would have liked the servicebut didn't know how to access it.
(10:19):
Looking back on your story and theconnection you made between the
person your doctor described and theperson who shot you, what's important
for people to understand about howharm can pass from person to person
without adequate care or support?
Aswad Thomas (10:34):
That's one of the things that changed my life was
during my last doctor's appointmentto remove the bullets out of my back.
As I'm laying on the operating table, mydoctor, as he's performing the surgery on
me, digging in my flesh to remove thesebullets out of my back, he started to tell
me the story of another young man who hehad treated a few years before I got shot.
(10:58):
And he talked about this teenagerwho was 14 years old at the time,
that young man was shot in his face,and as a result of that shooting, he
had lost sight in one of his eyes.
As he was sharing those details, I justremember like laying on the operating
table and like my heart just startedto beat faster and faster because
(11:19):
I was realizing he was describingthe teenager that had shot me.
And I remember telling my doctor, Isaid, "Hey, Doctor," his name is Dr.
William Marshall, um, at St.
Francis Hospital in Hartford, Connecticut.
I said, "Hey Dr.
Marshall, can you pause the surgerybecause I need to tell you something?"
And I said, "Hey, I'm not sure if yourealize or you know this, but you just
(11:44):
described the person that shot me."
And I remember Dr.
Marshall just like, you know,he paused, and he said, "I
can't believe this happened."
He said, "Aswad, just like you, wereleased that same teenager from
this same hospital back into thatsame community and years later he
(12:07):
was involved in your shooting."
And I r- just remember, uh, going homethat evening just constantly was thinking
about like what it must've been likefor that teenager to really deal with
that pain, that PTSD, that anger, thatresentment, as something that I knew.
I was all too familiar with thosethoughts and, and experiences.
And just being able to handle that at14 years old, but also living with a,
(12:32):
now a physical disability of losingsight in one of his eyes, right?
And so I've thought about that youngman and what he was experiencing.
And then I thought about, you know,what it have been like if that teenager
had received victim's services?
You know, maybe he wouldn't haveled a life of crime that turned
to, uh, shooting me that night.
(12:54):
But then I also thought about, if Iwould've never got shot, I probably
would've been overseas playingprofessional basketball and not spending,
you know, a year on my mother's couch,uh, recovering from those wounds.
So I thought about h-that young man a lot.
And from my family and like millionsof people like us, especially in the
communities of color, that lack ofsupport, mental health services, that
(13:17):
has a long-lasting and devastatingimpact on victims and families
far beyond any physical wounds.
Jonathon Lewis (13:23):
Wow.
When I first joined the team, I thinkwe were in Houston, you came out,
and you shared this story, for somereason today it feels different.
I am grateful that you are here, butI'm also wanna just sh- acknowledge
that your leadership here is important.
And I wanted, I wanna jump into justsome, the advocacy piece of this.
(13:44):
And tell us a little bit abouthow you found your way to Crime
Survivors for Safety and Justiceand became the National Director.
Did you set out to take on thisrole, this leadership role, or
did it just happen organically?
Aswad Thomas (13:57):
You know, I would've loved to had a professional basketball career,
would've loved to help take care ofmy mom, helped take care of my family,
helped take care of my oldest brother.
Hill's been incarcerated for 23 years now.
I would've loved to been able tojust have a profession, or able to
help support myself and my family.
(14:17):
So it's been very difficult havingsomething that you've worked so hard
for come to a end because of trauma.
What led me to this work was one, learningabout that young man who had shot me,
him becoming a victim of gun violence.
So the second thing that kind of led meto this work was the day that I went to
(14:38):
trial, preparing to testify against theperson who was arrested in my shooting.
I remember being downstairs to talk to theprosecutor and the detective in my case.
I remember them telling me of whatto expect through this process and
that this will be the first timethat I will see someone who they
believe was involved in my shooting.
(14:58):
So I remember that first day oftrial being extremely nervous.
And I remember asking the prosecutor,I said, "Hey, before I got upstairs
to testify, you know, can I talk tothe young man who they had arrested?"
And I remember my detective kind ofjumping in saying, "Why would you wanna
talk to someone who almost killed you?
Who ended your basketball career.
(15:20):
Why would you wanna talkto someone like that?"
And I remember, uh, telling thedetecting that, you know, I wasn't angry.
I wanted to talk to that youngman to kind of know what he
was going through in his life.
And I wanted to let him know that I,that I did forgive him for that shooting.
And then I remember theprosecutor had said, "Hey, Mr.
Thomas, we don't allow victimsto talk to perpetrators.
(15:42):
So we have to go forwardwith the process."
So when I heard that, I was, y- kindafelt bad that I wasn't able to talk to
that, uh, young man, and then I rememberasking the prosecutor, "So, hey, if
this young man was to get found guilty,how much time would he be facing?"
And they said that he wouldprobably be facing, if found
guilty, up to 40 years in prison.
(16:03):
And that right there, it hit me.
Okay, so he's 19 years old at the time.
Get found guilty and, you know, hespend, you know, 40 years in prison.
That didn't sit right with me.
For one, you know, my brother, you know,is serving a life sentence without,
without the possibility of parole.
So I know like the devastatingimpacts that incarceration can
have on someone in their family.
(16:25):
And I didn't wanna put that, um,young man or his family through that
experience that my family was goingthrough and continues to go through.
So I end up advocating for, uh,that young man to take a plea deal.
And so he eventually,uh, didn't go to trial.
He took a plea deal to be sentencedto six to 10 years in prison.
And, you know, and I, andI felt good about that.
(16:46):
I feel good about, one, him being heldaccountable for his actions, but I also
felt good that, knowing that he wouldbe able to come home before his 30th
birthday to live a productive life.
And also, at that time, I alsothought about, you know, maybe
when he is released, I couldbe there to help support him.
So that was the second thingthat kind of had got me thinking
about the victimization thathappened, but also the impact that
(17:08):
incarceration can have on people ofcolor, especially young Black men.
But then a third thing that kind ofled me to this work was connecting with
other survivors, other families who'slost loved ones to violence, victims of
domestic violence and sexual assault inmy community in Hartford, Connecticut.
But also, I'm talking to other crimevictims about, we all share this common
(17:30):
theme of being a victim of violence andnot getting any support or services.
Um, and so I wanted todo something about that.
I went back to school to get mymaster's degree in social work from
The University of Connecticut 'causeI wanted to give back to my community.
I wanted to give backto others just like me.
And that led me to joining CrimeSurvivors for Safety and Justice.
(17:53):
Many people don't know, my firstday at Crime Survivors for Safety
and Justice was on the six-yearanniversary of my shooting.
So for me, that day, everythingjust came full circle.
A day that I always associated witha negative experience, now provided
me with such a awesome, amazing,positive experience of joining Crime
Survivors for Safety and Justice.
Jonathon Lewis (18:14):
Mm-hmm.
When you were going through that processof contemplating wanting to talk to
the teenager, um, were you alone?
Like, what was the atmosphere?
Just, were you alone, were you withyour family, did you consult with
your family first, or were you justwrestling with those thoughts with
yourself and making those decisions?
Aswad Thomas (18:32):
Yeah.
It actually happened quite quickly,um, during that first day of trial.
I remember my mother had dropped meoff at the courthouse because she had
to go to work, so I was alone in thatoffice with the prosecutor and the
detective, and I started to think aboutthe other young man that had shot me.
I started to think about all the friendsthat I had grew up with, many of them
(18:54):
became victims, many of them, um, youknow, at some point came in contact with
the justice system, and I knew that, forme, my healing played a huge part in me
being able to forgive those two youngmen who were involved in my shooting.
But I also knew that here in theUnited States, we have a way of holding
(19:15):
people accountable through punishment.
I wanted a process that would provideaccountability but also make sure
that we are providing rehabilitationfor those inside of the justice
system, but also think of how can wehelp that young man and his family?
And I kn- just knew that himbeing sentenced for 40 years in
(19:35):
jail wasn't gonna do much for me.
I mean, it wasn't gonnado much for his family.
You know, what I've learned throughthis work is that by talking to other
crime victims, often, we actuallyprefer shorter prison sentences rather
than long-term prison sentences.
We also prefer more rehabilitationinstead of punishing people as well.
Jonathon Lewis (19:57):
Yeah.
And just thinking about the recentsurvey that we released last year in
2022, that 68% of crime victims oftenprefer investments in other things
like prevention, mental health, crisisassistance over longer prison sentences.
So you know fast-forward, you're apart of Crime Survivors of Safety and
(20:19):
Justice and is the National Director.
What sort of work do you do asthe National Director of CSSJ?
And what aspects of your roledo you find most enjoyable?
Aswad Thomas (20:29):
Mm [laughs].
So, as the National Director of CrimeSurvivors of Safety and Justice,
you know, we have over 180 plus,thousand members across the country.
We have chapters in almost 10 statesacross the country that are led by crime
survivors who are providing peer-to-peersupport to people who are hosting
(20:49):
survivor centered meetings and events.
Things like healingvigils and resource fears.
They're being trained by leaders[laughs] like you, Jonathon, to
organize, to help understand policy,but also how to run campaigns and
also how to develop policies as well.
And also, you know, being able to helpshift the narrative in the media about
who crime survivors are, right, andwhat we want out of the justice system.
(21:13):
So in my role as the National Director,and, and one other thing that, you
know, I really enjoy, uh, the mostis connecting with other members.
For the past 10 years of my life,traveling and connecting with
survivors across different experiences.
From meeting with parents who've lostchildren to gun violence, meeting
(21:35):
with other survivors of gun violencelike myself, meeting with domestic
violence and sexual assault, humantrafficking victims, listening to
their stories, which are very hard.
Some of them, in my experience,many, uh, victims don't get
access to services and resources.
And the thing that I enjoy the most isjust like listening to their stories
but also helping them along theirhealing journey to help find their
(21:57):
voice and also to help give back totheir communities, start their own
organizations, which many of our membershave done across the country to help
fill a gap that exists in communities,but also being able to help identify
policies to work on to help advance publicsafety reforms in their communities.
(22:19):
Just last week, I was in Florida.
I was joined by over 60 survivors andorganizations across the state of Florida.
And so just being in the space whereyou're in the community of survivors
and you are advocating for, uh, the samegoal, which is more trauma recovery,
more services for the organizationsthat are providing support, but also
(22:40):
making sure that we're advocatingfor a better justice system that
really prioritize the healing, theprevention that's needed in communities.
So that's, you know, one ofthe things I enjoy the most.
I also enjoy meeting with legislatorsto help educate them about what crime
survivors are going through, but alsoto help uplift the important role that
(23:01):
legislators can play in helping to builda better infrastructure of victim's
services, but also a vision of ourcriminal justice system which has failed
so many communities across the country.
Jonathon Lewis (23:13):
One thing I wanna just say, I know how hard you worked to get
to this space and how dedicated you were.
Listening to other crimesurvivors, members, their
stories, it's so important to you.
I've seen your passion and your commitmentto this work and making sure that our
leaders got what they needed and that weare changing policies for the betterment
(23:34):
of crime victims and communities who'sbeen hardest hit by crime and violence.
Would you tell us a little bit aboutyour vision for this podcast, the
audience that you're really wantingto speak to, and how you want
this podcast to support survivors?
Aswad Thomas (23:48):
You know, just to give a little bit of background
how this podcast came about.
It's been years in the making.
It has been years of like listeningto survivors and just seeing so many
amazing people across the countrythat are truly healing through action.
And so for victims a-a- andsurvivors of violence, you know,
there are many pathways to recovery.
(24:11):
And storytelling is a huge partof that journey for many of us.
And that was a huge part of my healingwas being able to, uh, share my story.
So we launched the Crime Survivors Speakpodcast to really help elevate the,
the stories and the amazing leadershipof these individuals from across the
(24:31):
country that are truly transformingour entire safety and justice system.
So, in season one we heard from somany amazing survivors that started
all organizations out of a gapthat existed in their communities.
We've talked to survivors thathad became published authors.
We've talked to survivors that havehelped to establish more trauma
(24:54):
recovery centers across the country.
So in season two, I'm really lookingforward to, you know, connecting
with more survivors, um, across thecountry, but really to drill down and
having more conversations about safety.
For many survivors, especially survivorsin communities of colors, safety has
never been equated with being toughon crime for most crime victims.
(25:17):
Safety has never been about lockingpeople up for as long as we can.
Safety is about helpingcrime victims recover.
Safety is about preventing the violence.
Uh, safety is also ensuring that peoplewho may have caused harm, that they have
access to rehabilitative programs whilethey're incarcerated, but also have
a reason to r- pursue those programsthrough things like productivity,
(25:42):
credits, and earned credits programs.
But also, safety is also aboutensuring that when people come out of
the justice system, they can accessthings like, you know, housing, jobs,
education, things that help promotestability and a better quality of life
for themselves and their families.
So I'm excited to have more conversationswith survivors on like what safety means
to them, and what they envision whatsafety look like in their community.
(26:06):
I also want this podcast to be a,just another layer of support for
survivors to listen to stories, listento people like them that are healing.
Also, to reach a broader audience.
More survivors, more advocates, morelegislators, more service providers,
more decision makers, to really helpinspire people to use their voice,
use their influence to make a changein victim services, and also criminal
(26:28):
justice policies across the country.
Jonathon Lewis (26:30):
So thank you, Aswad, so much for just taking the time to
just share you story and share abouthow you got into this work, but also
your vision overall for, not onlyjust CSSJ, but also for this podcast
and how you want it to expand.
And so with that, thank you so much toeveryone for listening to today's episode.
To become a member of Crime Survivorsfor Safety and Justice, or join
(26:55):
our email list, visit the websiteat www.CSSJ.org to join a chapter
near you, or our national network.
Remember, you can tune into all podcastepisodes on YouTube, Apple Podcast,
Spotify, and other streaming platforms.
We are healing through action.
(27:15):
When survivors speak, change happens.
For me, my healing played a huge part in me being able
to forgive those two young men whowere involved in my shooting, but
also knew that here in the UnitedStates, we have a way of holding
people accountable through punishment.
I wanted a process that would provideaccountability, but also make sure that
(00:21):
we are providing rehabilitation forthose inside of the justice system.
Welcome to this week's episodeof Crime Survivors Speak.
My name is Aswad Thomas.
I'm the National Director of CrimeSurvivors for Safety and Justice.
(00:41):
We are a national network of 185,000crime victims from across the country.
If you haven't already subscribed, youcan stay up-to-date on the latest episodes
by going to YouTube, Apple Podcast,Spotify and other streaming services by
clicking the link on your screen or goingto the website at www.CSSJ.org/podcast.
(01:08):
So excited.
We're kicking off season two of theCrime Survivors Speak podcast and
we're welcoming back Jonathon Lewis.
Uh, we interviewed Jonathon in ourlast season about his work as our
Crime Survivors for Safety and JusticeNational Training Director to help
survivor leaders become strong advocates.
And during that interview,Jonathon had some questions for me.
(01:32):
So today, I'm going to switchroles from being the interviewer
to being the interviewee.
So, thanks so much for comingback to the show, Jonathon.
Jonathon Lewis (01:41):
Thank you Aswad and welcome to everyone who's listening.
Today, it is my pleasure to get tointerview you Aswad as a person who
is my leader but also an advocatein this fight with Crime Survivors
from all across the country.
To kick things off Aswad, could you tellus a bit about where you grew up, and
(02:01):
what was your ambitions and dreams whenyou were growing up as a younger person?
Aswad Thomas (02:06):
So I was born in Hartford, Connecticut, but I spent
most of my childhood in Highland Park,Michigan, which is a city within the
city limits of Detroit, Michigan.
I'm the youngest of five boys.
I grew up in a single parenthousehold with my four brothers
(02:26):
in two communities riddled withpoverty; not a lot of opportunities
for jobs; wasn't a lot of resources.
And both of those communitiesin Hartford and in Detroit have
been devastated by violence.
Both of those cities that I grew up in,you know, there wasn't a lot of hope
for, uh, young Black boys like myself.
(02:49):
And for me, that hope startedon the basketball court.
At a very young age, basketball wasn'tjust an outlet for me to escape from
my neighborhood, but also was anoutlet for me to escape the negative
influences that surrounded me.
And it was often the only safeplace that I had in my neighborhood.
So I spent most of my timeactually playing basketball or, um,
(03:13):
attending school, and also spenta lot of my time hanging out with
my childhood best friend, Ruben.
Ruben and I, we were straight A students.
We spent most of our timeplaying basketball together.
We walked to school together.
Before we had to take a test,we would stop at the corner
store, get a box of nerds.
We ate the nerds thinking that it wouldhelp us be smarter on, on our tests.
(03:37):
And so we did everythingtogether as kids, Ruben and I.
But unfortunately, um, in 1993, just weeksbefore starting the fifth grade, my best
friend Ruben, at just 10 years old, wasshot and killed in a drive-by shooting.
Ruben's death changed bylife for a very long time.
(03:57):
And Ruben was the first friendthat I lost to violence, but
unfortunately, he wouldn't be the last.
And losing him made me dedicate my lifeto playing basketball and eventually
trying to make it out of my neighborhood.
Jonathon Lewis (04:09):
Wow.
Thank you for sharing that.
And I wanna fast-forward to a pointin your life that brought you a
little bit into what you do now.
I know you tell this story prettyoften, which doesn't necessarily mean
that it gets easier to talk about.
But for the folks listening whoaren't familiar with your story,
would you share what happened and howthat brought you to this work now?
Aswad Thomas (04:31):
Yeah, so, you know, eventually I did actually make it
out of my neighborhood and I wenton to play college basketball.
And I also became the first male in myfamily to ever graduate from college.
I still remember walking acrossthat stage and seeing my mother, you
know with this bright smile on herface because her youngest son, her
(04:53):
baby boy became a college graduate.
So this is back in 2009, whichwas the highest point in my life.
Had just graduated from college and I hadsigned with a basketball agent to start my
professional basketball career in Europe.
So, something, two things that I'veworked so hard for, my academics and
(05:15):
also playing basketball, those are twothings that I finally achieved in 2009.
So that was like thehighest point of my life.
Unfortunately, that same summer, itquickly became the lowest point in my
life when days before I was supposedto go over to Europe to start my
professional basketball career, I wasshot twice in my back while leaving a
(05:39):
corner store in Hartford, Connecticut.
And those bullets ended myprofessional basketball career, and
quite frankly, almost ended my life.
I remember waking up in the emergency roomand seeing my mother and seeing my father
and my, my siblings, um, you know, just inthat emergency room in tears and crying.
(06:04):
And then a doctor walked over to me.
Everything kind of felt like a dream.
I didn't know why I waslaying in this emergency room.
I didn't know why my family was in tears.
As I was trying to speak, I noticedthere were tubes everywhere.
And the doctor came overto my side and said, "Mr.
(06:24):
Thomas, you were shot twice in your back.
And we don't know if youhave been paralyzed or not."
And at that very moment, I kinda justbroke down because it finally hit me
that I became a victim of gun violence.
And the first thought that I had was,will I ever play basketball again?
(06:48):
Then the second thought, wouldI ever be able to walk again?
That moment, everything changed, uh,for me, of becoming a victim of gun
violence, but also being released fromthat same hospital, having to live in
the same neighborhood where I was shotwas nother traumatic experience because
the doctors told me about my physicalchallenges that I would have, but nobody
(07:12):
prepared me for the psychological effectsof being a victim of gun violence.
So I was dealing with the PTSD, uh,dealing with the depression, the, the
isolation, the nightmares, the physicalpain, and also the traumatic experience
of being a victim of gun violence andhaving to live in the same place you
(07:33):
were shot without any, any support.
Jonathon Lewis (07:35):
Could you share, if you don't mind, just a little
bit, like what support did you get?
Did you receive victim's compensation?
Aswad Thomas (07:44):
I was released from, you know, the hospital,
as I mentioned, back to the samecommunity, uh, where I was shot.
No followup from the hospital.
I remember law enforcement coming tovisit me several times during my recovery.
I just remember every time law enforcementcame to visit me, it always contributed
(08:04):
to my stress and my a- anxiety, duringthose conversations with law enforcement.
They never shared any information aboutthe victim's compensation program, or
told me about victim services, nor didthey even connect me to a victim advocate
in their department that's supposedto work with victims like myself.
(08:25):
And so my family and I never received anyvictim services, any victim compensation
or mental health services, uh, to help medeal with being a victim of gun violence.
And I remember, like, a I was recovering,I was able to walk again, um, was able
to talk more often than I was before,I remember, as I was experiencing those
(08:48):
nightmares and those traumatic experiencesof being a victim of gun violence, often
thought like, am I the only person whohave went through this experience of
being a victim and not getting any help.
Um, and so I started to think aboutlike who else do I know who's been
a victim who may have got any help?
Um, so there was a fewthings that I actually did.
I called my father.
(09:09):
My father who got shot inhis chest in the 1980s.
I called him and I said, "Hey, Dad, whenyou got shot, did you get any help?"
And he said, "No."
And hung up the phone on me.
So then I called my second-oldestbrother who also got shot in
his back in the late 1990s.
I said, "Hey, Bro, when you gotshot, did you get any help?"
(09:29):
And the answer was no.
And then I talked to my, my first cousinwho got shot in the early 2000s, and
as a result of that shooting, he'sbeen paralyzed from the waist down.
I asked him that same question (09:38):
When you got shot, did you get any help?
And the answer was no.
So, Jonathon, like, in my immediatefamily, five out of the 10 males
have been victims of gun violencebut none of us ever received any
victim services or was made aware ofthe victim's compensation program.
Jonathon Lewis (09:58):
Thank you for sharing that.
And so many other people who are victimsof crime, particularly victims of violent
crimes don't get access to victim'scomp, right, or don't know about it.
In our recent study with Crime Survivorsof Safety and Justice, we found that
47% would have liked the servicebut didn't know how to access it.
(10:19):
Looking back on your story and theconnection you made between the
person your doctor described and theperson who shot you, what's important
for people to understand about howharm can pass from person to person
without adequate care or support?
Aswad Thomas (10:34):
That's one of the things that changed my life was
during my last doctor's appointmentto remove the bullets out of my back.
As I'm laying on the operating table, mydoctor, as he's performing the surgery on
me, digging in my flesh to remove thesebullets out of my back, he started to tell
me the story of another young man who hehad treated a few years before I got shot.
(10:58):
And he talked about this teenagerwho was 14 years old at the time,
that young man was shot in his face,and as a result of that shooting, he
had lost sight in one of his eyes.
As he was sharing those details, I justremember like laying on the operating
table and like my heart just startedto beat faster and faster because
(11:19):
I was realizing he was describingthe teenager that had shot me.
And I remember telling my doctor, Isaid, "Hey, Doctor," his name is Dr.
William Marshall, um, at St.
Francis Hospital in Hartford, Connecticut.
I said, "Hey Dr.
Marshall, can you pause the surgerybecause I need to tell you something?"
And I said, "Hey, I'm not sure if yourealize or you know this, but you just
(11:44):
described the person that shot me."
And I remember Dr.
Marshall just like, you know,he paused, and he said, "I
can't believe this happened."
He said, "Aswad, just like you, wereleased that same teenager from
this same hospital back into thatsame community and years later he
(12:07):
was involved in your shooting."
And I r- just remember, uh, going homethat evening just constantly was thinking
about like what it must've been likefor that teenager to really deal with
that pain, that PTSD, that anger, thatresentment, as something that I knew.
I was all too familiar with thosethoughts and, and experiences.
And just being able to handle that at14 years old, but also living with a,
(12:32):
now a physical disability of losingsight in one of his eyes, right?
And so I've thought about that youngman and what he was experiencing.
And then I thought about, you know,what it have been like if that teenager
had received victim's services?
You know, maybe he wouldn't haveled a life of crime that turned
to, uh, shooting me that night.
(12:54):
But then I also thought about, if Iwould've never got shot, I probably
would've been overseas playingprofessional basketball and not spending,
you know, a year on my mother's couch,uh, recovering from those wounds.
So I thought about h-that young man a lot.
And from my family and like millionsof people like us, especially in the
communities of color, that lack ofsupport, mental health services, that
(13:17):
has a long-lasting and devastatingimpact on victims and families
far beyond any physical wounds.
Jonathon Lewis (13:23):
Wow.
When I first joined the team, I thinkwe were in Houston, you came out,
and you shared this story, for somereason today it feels different.
I am grateful that you are here, butI'm also wanna just sh- acknowledge
that your leadership here is important.
And I wanted, I wanna jump into justsome, the advocacy piece of this.
(13:44):
And tell us a little bit abouthow you found your way to Crime
Survivors for Safety and Justiceand became the National Director.
Did you set out to take on thisrole, this leadership role, or
did it just happen organically?
Aswad Thomas (13:57):
You know, I would've loved to had a professional basketball career,
would've loved to help take care ofmy mom, helped take care of my family,
helped take care of my oldest brother.
Hill's been incarcerated for 23 years now.
I would've loved to been able tojust have a profession, or able to
help support myself and my family.
(14:17):
So it's been very difficult havingsomething that you've worked so hard
for come to a end because of trauma.
What led me to this work was one, learningabout that young man who had shot me,
him becoming a victim of gun violence.
So the second thing that kind of led meto this work was the day that I went to
(14:38):
trial, preparing to testify against theperson who was arrested in my shooting.
I remember being downstairs to talk to theprosecutor and the detective in my case.
I remember them telling me of whatto expect through this process and
that this will be the first timethat I will see someone who they
believe was involved in my shooting.
(14:58):
So I remember that first day oftrial being extremely nervous.
And I remember asking the prosecutor,I said, "Hey, before I got upstairs
to testify, you know, can I talk tothe young man who they had arrested?"
And I remember my detective kind ofjumping in saying, "Why would you wanna
talk to someone who almost killed you?
Who ended your basketball career.
(15:20):
Why would you wanna talkto someone like that?"
And I remember, uh, telling thedetecting that, you know, I wasn't angry.
I wanted to talk to that youngman to kind of know what he
was going through in his life.
And I wanted to let him know that I,that I did forgive him for that shooting.
And then I remember theprosecutor had said, "Hey, Mr.
Thomas, we don't allow victimsto talk to perpetrators.
(15:42):
So we have to go forwardwith the process."
So when I heard that, I was, y- kindafelt bad that I wasn't able to talk to
that, uh, young man, and then I rememberasking the prosecutor, "So, hey, if
this young man was to get found guilty,how much time would he be facing?"
And they said that he wouldprobably be facing, if found
guilty, up to 40 years in prison.
(16:03):
And that right there, it hit me.
Okay, so he's 19 years old at the time.
Get found guilty and, you know, hespend, you know, 40 years in prison.
That didn't sit right with me.
For one, you know, my brother, you know,is serving a life sentence without,
without the possibility of parole.
So I know like the devastatingimpacts that incarceration can
have on someone in their family.
(16:25):
And I didn't wanna put that, um,young man or his family through that
experience that my family was goingthrough and continues to go through.
So I end up advocating for, uh,that young man to take a plea deal.
And so he eventually,uh, didn't go to trial.
He took a plea deal to be sentencedto six to 10 years in prison.
And, you know, and I, andI felt good about that.
(16:46):
I feel good about, one, him being heldaccountable for his actions, but I also
felt good that, knowing that he wouldbe able to come home before his 30th
birthday to live a productive life.
And also, at that time, I alsothought about, you know, maybe
when he is released, I couldbe there to help support him.
So that was the second thingthat kind of had got me thinking
about the victimization thathappened, but also the impact that
(17:08):
incarceration can have on people ofcolor, especially young Black men.
But then a third thing that kind ofled me to this work was connecting with
other survivors, other families who'slost loved ones to violence, victims of
domestic violence and sexual assault inmy community in Hartford, Connecticut.
But also, I'm talking to other crimevictims about, we all share this common
(17:30):
theme of being a victim of violence andnot getting any support or services.
Um, and so I wanted todo something about that.
I went back to school to get mymaster's degree in social work from
The University of Connecticut 'causeI wanted to give back to my community.
I wanted to give backto others just like me.
And that led me to joining CrimeSurvivors for Safety and Justice.
(17:53):
Many people don't know, my firstday at Crime Survivors for Safety
and Justice was on the six-yearanniversary of my shooting.
So for me, that day, everythingjust came full circle.
A day that I always associated witha negative experience, now provided
me with such a awesome, amazing,positive experience of joining Crime
Survivors for Safety and Justice.
Jonathon Lewis (18:14):
Mm-hmm.
When you were going through that processof contemplating wanting to talk to
the teenager, um, were you alone?
Like, what was the atmosphere?
Just, were you alone, were you withyour family, did you consult with
your family first, or were you justwrestling with those thoughts with
yourself and making those decisions?
Aswad Thomas (18:32):
Yeah.
It actually happened quite quickly,um, during that first day of trial.
I remember my mother had dropped meoff at the courthouse because she had
to go to work, so I was alone in thatoffice with the prosecutor and the
detective, and I started to think aboutthe other young man that had shot me.
I started to think about all the friendsthat I had grew up with, many of them
(18:54):
became victims, many of them, um, youknow, at some point came in contact with
the justice system, and I knew that, forme, my healing played a huge part in me
being able to forgive those two youngmen who were involved in my shooting.
But I also knew that here in theUnited States, we have a way of holding
(19:15):
people accountable through punishment.
I wanted a process that would provideaccountability but also make sure
that we are providing rehabilitationfor those inside of the justice
system, but also think of how can wehelp that young man and his family?
And I kn- just knew that himbeing sentenced for 40 years in
(19:35):
jail wasn't gonna do much for me.
I mean, it wasn't gonnado much for his family.
You know, what I've learned throughthis work is that by talking to other
crime victims, often, we actuallyprefer shorter prison sentences rather
than long-term prison sentences.
We also prefer more rehabilitationinstead of punishing people as well.
Jonathon Lewis (19:57):
Yeah.
And just thinking about the recentsurvey that we released last year in
2022, that 68% of crime victims oftenprefer investments in other things
like prevention, mental health, crisisassistance over longer prison sentences.
So you know fast-forward, you're apart of Crime Survivors of Safety and
(20:19):
Justice and is the National Director.
What sort of work do you do asthe National Director of CSSJ?
And what aspects of your roledo you find most enjoyable?
Aswad Thomas (20:29):
Mm [laughs].
So, as the National Director of CrimeSurvivors of Safety and Justice,
you know, we have over 180 plus,thousand members across the country.
We have chapters in almost 10 statesacross the country that are led by crime
survivors who are providing peer-to-peersupport to people who are hosting
(20:49):
survivor centered meetings and events.
Things like healingvigils and resource fears.
They're being trained by leaders[laughs] like you, Jonathon, to
organize, to help understand policy,but also how to run campaigns and
also how to develop policies as well.
And also, you know, being able to helpshift the narrative in the media about
who crime survivors are, right, andwhat we want out of the justice system.
(21:13):
So in my role as the National Director,and, and one other thing that, you
know, I really enjoy, uh, the mostis connecting with other members.
For the past 10 years of my life,traveling and connecting with
survivors across different experiences.
From meeting with parents who've lostchildren to gun violence, meeting
(21:35):
with other survivors of gun violencelike myself, meeting with domestic
violence and sexual assault, humantrafficking victims, listening to
their stories, which are very hard.
Some of them, in my experience,many, uh, victims don't get
access to services and resources.
And the thing that I enjoy the most isjust like listening to their stories
but also helping them along theirhealing journey to help find their
(21:57):
voice and also to help give back totheir communities, start their own
organizations, which many of our membershave done across the country to help
fill a gap that exists in communities,but also being able to help identify
policies to work on to help advance publicsafety reforms in their communities.
(22:19):
Just last week, I was in Florida.
I was joined by over 60 survivors andorganizations across the state of Florida.
And so just being in the space whereyou're in the community of survivors
and you are advocating for, uh, the samegoal, which is more trauma recovery,
more services for the organizationsthat are providing support, but also
(22:40):
making sure that we're advocatingfor a better justice system that
really prioritize the healing, theprevention that's needed in communities.
So that's, you know, one ofthe things I enjoy the most.
I also enjoy meeting with legislatorsto help educate them about what crime
survivors are going through, but alsoto help uplift the important role that
(23:01):
legislators can play in helping to builda better infrastructure of victim's
services, but also a vision of ourcriminal justice system which has failed
so many communities across the country.
Jonathon Lewis (23:13):
One thing I wanna just say, I know how hard you worked to get
to this space and how dedicated you were.
Listening to other crimesurvivors, members, their
stories, it's so important to you.
I've seen your passion and your commitmentto this work and making sure that our
leaders got what they needed and that weare changing policies for the betterment
(23:34):
of crime victims and communities who'sbeen hardest hit by crime and violence.
Would you tell us a little bit aboutyour vision for this podcast, the
audience that you're really wantingto speak to, and how you want
this podcast to support survivors?
Aswad Thomas (23:48):
You know, just to give a little bit of background
how this podcast came about.
It's been years in the making.
It has been years of like listeningto survivors and just seeing so many
amazing people across the countrythat are truly healing through action.
And so for victims a-a- andsurvivors of violence, you know,
there are many pathways to recovery.
(24:11):
And storytelling is a huge partof that journey for many of us.
And that was a huge part of my healingwas being able to, uh, share my story.
So we launched the Crime Survivors Speakpodcast to really help elevate the,
the stories and the amazing leadershipof these individuals from across the
(24:31):
country that are truly transformingour entire safety and justice system.
So, in season one we heard from somany amazing survivors that started
all organizations out of a gapthat existed in their communities.
We've talked to survivors thathad became published authors.
We've talked to survivors that havehelped to establish more trauma
(24:54):
recovery centers across the country.
So in season two, I'm really lookingforward to, you know, connecting
with more survivors, um, across thecountry, but really to drill down and
having more conversations about safety.
For many survivors, especially survivorsin communities of colors, safety has
never been equated with being toughon crime for most crime victims.
(25:17):
Safety has never been about lockingpeople up for as long as we can.
Safety is about helpingcrime victims recover.
Safety is about preventing the violence.
Uh, safety is also ensuring that peoplewho may have caused harm, that they have
access to rehabilitative programs whilethey're incarcerated, but also have
a reason to r- pursue those programsthrough things like productivity,
(25:42):
credits, and earned credits programs.
But also, safety is also aboutensuring that when people come out of
the justice system, they can accessthings like, you know, housing, jobs,
education, things that help promotestability and a better quality of life
for themselves and their families.
So I'm excited to have more conversationswith survivors on like what safety means
to them, and what they envision whatsafety look like in their community.
(26:06):
I also want this podcast to be a,just another layer of support for
survivors to listen to stories, listento people like them that are healing.
Also, to reach a broader audience.
More survivors, more advocates, morelegislators, more service providers,
more decision makers, to really helpinspire people to use their voice,
use their influence to make a changein victim services, and also criminal
(26:28):
justice policies across the country.
Jonathon Lewis (26:30):
So thank you, Aswad, so much for just taking the time to
just share you story and share abouthow you got into this work, but also
your vision overall for, not onlyjust CSSJ, but also for this podcast
and how you want it to expand.
And so with that, thank you so much toeveryone for listening to today's episode.
To become a member of Crime Survivorsfor Safety and Justice, or join
(26:55):
our email list, visit the websiteat www.CSSJ.org to join a chapter
near you, or our national network.
Remember, you can tune into all podcastepisodes on YouTube, Apple Podcast,
Spotify, and other streaming platforms.
We are healing through action.
(27:15):
When survivors speak, change happens.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.