March 13, 2025 • 33 mins
In this powerful episode, Callie Greer, a longtime grassroots organizer and community navigator for Alabama Appleseed, shares how her personal loss led her to fight for the right to heal—a vision of justice that prioritizes healing, accountability, and investment in community safety.
Callie recounts advocating for a more compassionate sentence for the young man who took her son’s life, recognizing that true justice offers a path for both survivors and those who have caused harm to heal. She also reflects on her experience at the March on Washington, where she found strength in a movement of survivors fighting for real safety.
Aswad Thomas closes the episode with an exciting announcement: CSSJ will be launching a new chapter in Alabama in 2025. This expansion will help support survivor-led organizations like Alabama Appleseed, ensuring more communities have access to the resources, advocacy, and policy reforms needed to create lasting change.
Join us for this deeply moving conversation about resilience, justice, and the power of survivors leading the way.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Aswad Thomas (00:00):
Welcome to the Crime Survivors Speak podcast.
My name is Aswad Thomas.
I'm the National Director of CrimeSurvivors for Safety and Justice.
We are a national network, over 200,000victims of crime from across the country.
If you haven't subscribed, you can dothat on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
and other services by clicking thelink or going to www.cssj.org/podcast.
(00:27):
I'm excited to talk to anotheramazing survivor leader.
Our guest today is Callie Greer, a longtime grassroots community organizer who
currently serve as the community navigatorfor Alabama Appleseed, an organization
that helps marginalized communitieshave a bigger voice in policymaking.
(00:49):
Callie has experienced deep personalloss as a result of gun violence,
as well as medical neglect.
She now passionately advocatesfor Medicaid expansion and
reducing gun violence as apowerful legacy for her children.
She's also one of our newestmembers of the CSSJ family.
Callie is committed to building asafer, healthier future in Alabama.
(01:13):
Welcome to the podcast, Callie.
Callie Greer (01:16):
Thank you, Aswad.
I tell you, I'm honored.
It is a pleasure.
I'm excited.
I've been looking forward to this.
Aswad Thomas (01:21):
Awesome.
So let's dive right into it.
So to begin, we have to startwith the Crime Survivors Speak
March on Washington in September.
What was it like for you to travel toDC other survivors from Alabama, to be
in community with survivors from acrossthe country, advocating for a right to
heal and a new approach to public safety.
Callie Greer (01:42):
I'm gonna give you as much of the emotions and feelings and
experiences I can about that March on DC.
Because of the way I look at life, it'swhat I term as a terribly beautiful thing.
Thousands of us gathered together.
There were men and there were women.
There were young and older people,babies, famous people, musical artists,
(02:04):
politicians, doctors, lawyers, areal representation of America.
That's a beautiful thing, right?
And we were gathered togetherbecause we or someone we love
are survivors of a terribleviolent crime that happened to us.
So we were mourning , smiling,crying and celebrating our survival,
(02:25):
our loss, and our healing process.
Advocating for a more justpolicy for our communities.
Which is America, that's our community.
So we came advocating peacefully andwe embraced familiar strangers that
was fighting for me and I was fightingfor them and we were fighting for us.
(02:47):
It was a terribly beautiful thing, andI just need to say for me, CSSJ has
made advocating a terribly beautifulthing and it continues to help me not to
waste my pain, you know, cause so manythings happen in that small space of time
that I'm still savoring and recoveringthoughts and scenes and actions and,
(03:12):
seeing people hugging each other thatdidn't even know each other and were
supporting each other, even in the rain.
I've gone to numerous marches and rallies.
Been to DC many times, but evenif we did it again, I don't know
if it would even compare to howyou brought all of us thousands
healing, grieving, celebrating,mourning, crying survivors together
(03:38):
to make change for ourselves.
It was amazing.
Aswad Thomas (03:41):
Yes, it was truly amazing.
The community thatwe've been able to build
with each other across the country,and you played a key role in that
for months leading up to that Marchon Washington, being on a lot of our
partner organization calls and helpingto organize people from your community
to take that long bus ride to Washington,
DC.
So I appreciate you all participatingin that event to really be unified as a
(04:05):
survivor network especially for survivorsfrom underserved communities of color.
And at times we don't havea voice in public policy,
especially at the local, state
and at the federal level.
So, we're excited about all of thefederal advocacy we'll continue to
do as it relates to the March onWashington and our policy platform,
the Right to Heal Bill willpotentially be released early in 2025.
(04:27):
I want to ask you anotherquestion just related to CSSJ.
So you've been very active with us forthe past few months planning for the
March on Washington event, but you'vejoined trainings, you've been an active
participant in the monthly WellnessWednesday event in the Drop in Healing
Spaces call.
(04:47):
Can you talk about, how thathelped you and your healing?
Callie Greer (04:51):
My pleasure.
it's become like a prescription forme for experiences that I continue to
have for this loss of our children,that no doctor could have prescribed.
It's been 25 years since we lost Mercuryand 13 since we lost Venus and that
length of time even myself and otherpeople would think that all of those
(05:12):
areas had been attended to but some ofthe thoughts and words that are spoken
at these gatherings have shown me thatI've, in a way, just started my healing
journey because some of the things thatI have not been given access to, to
be able to express my trauma, and forreal though, just to be honest, I never
(05:38):
thought of myself as a trauma victim.
I've lost two children to differentforms of violence and had other violent
experiences in my life, because of theway I was raised, because I'm older black
woman, I wasn't raised in a way thattrauma was a word that was used in our
vocabulary, that we knew anything about.
(06:00):
Survival has alwaysbeen the code to live.
All these terms and what they meantjust opened up places that I thought
were alright, and helped me to bealright with them, and hear from
other women and men that had alreadybecome aware of those places and what
(06:22):
they did to come through it and whatthey're doing now to hold on to it.
It's such a wealth of healingbalm and ointments in these
gatherings, that have nurtured mein ways I didn't know I needed.
I turn off my camera a lot becauseI'm just sitting here crying.
I have questions that I feel shouldhave been answered in 1999 or later
(06:45):
that had not been answered so yesI mean you just people just got to
come for themselves because everybodyexperienced a different thing and I've
been sharing it on my Facebook page.
I've been sharing in the conversations.
I've been sharing it at staff meetings.
I can't tell y'all what you'regonna experience but you need
to come, you need to sit in.
I mean you owe it to yourself to doa Wellness Wednesday and do a Healing
(07:07):
Thursday event and a few people havejoined and they say they're coming
back and bringing other people.
Healing with other humans that arehealing, and I say humans because a
lot of times for me and a lot of otherpeople, mostly black women that I share
(07:28):
with, that I do my work with, havebeen so dehumanized and so discounted,
even at the death of our children.
Just love them as a human, asa mother, that has lost in such
a way, that you are allowed toweep, that's your right to heal.
(07:50):
And when you all said that, I was like,damn, I gotta have a right to heal?
Yes!
For a long time, I did not have thatright in unspoken words, ways, and deeds
that right was denied to me to heal.
Aswad Thomas (08:06):
Yep.
Callie Greer (08:07):
When I would ask for stuff that I would need.
I was denied it.
it's crazy, to connect those dotsthat I did not and still do not have a
complete right to heal from my lossesas a mother, as a woman, as a black
(08:28):
woman, as a recovered drug user, asa recovered woman that was formerly
incarcerated with all those labels thatpeople put on you that dehumanize you.
I have a right to heal and I haveto fight for that right to heal.
(08:51):
I'm still struggling with that.
Let me just be honest, whitewomen when something happens, the
world runs to their rescue, andI'm like Hey, did you not hear?
This is a everyday thing in my community.
Have you just not heard?
It's not valued.
It's discounted.
It's, supposed to be thenorm for us and it's not.
(09:14):
It's not humane and I am human.
We are human.
Aswad Thomas (09:18):
I could listen to you all day.
Really uplifting that last pointof the racial disparities that
exists in victim services about whoget help and who don't get help.
For our listeners out there, CrimeSurvivors for Safety and Justice,
we organize survivors, train themto be leaders, to change policies
and host events like SurvivorsSpeak and town halls, most
(09:39):
importantly through our member supportprogram, we're helping survivors on
that healing journey, getting accessto counseling via our partnership
with BetterHelp, peer to peer support.
For our survivors and our
members online and also in communities, we host every month these drop in calls
that Callie was just describing, that isa space for survivors, led by survivors.
(10:03):
We're excited to continue to grow ourmember support program because helping
survivors get access to the support andhealing that helps them and helps all
of us want to get involved in organizingadvocacy and also changing policy.
You have to help peopleheal first as well.
So you've had your own interactionswith the justice system, have
(10:25):
several family members impactedby violence in the past, right?
And now, you work as acommunity leader in policy.
What does it mean to you to have gonefrom those experiences, and you being
a survivor yourself and having lovedones who have been impacted by violence,
to being a powerful leader working tomake your community in Alabama safer?
Callie Greer (10:47):
I sit with this question for a minute.
People see power in different ways, andpeople see leaders in different ways.
To me, to be powerful, you gottasit, stand, and walk in that power.
Being those things in my communityis different from being those
things outside my community.
(11:08):
In my community, folks saw me, some evenlived some experiences with me from drug
abuse, being incarcerated, and beingdelivered from drugs, and then the loss
of two children, and being on that side ofthe justice system, and now being on this
side of the justice system and been doingthis work for 25 years, trying to make
(11:34):
life more humane, make it just and fair.
I want to make it just as fair,just as safe as it is for everyone
else that are living in America.
Having had my community beingmy witnesses, I don't have to
(11:59):
make believers out of them.
They know that I'm for real aboutwhat I'm doing, because they've seen
the transformations for themselves.
So that makes me a crediblemessenger, I don't have to do a
song and dance in my community.
With any information that I'mbringing, they know every fight I
(12:22):
am fighting, I literally havebeen directly affected by it.
So if I'm coming to tellyou something, it's true.
If I say it's good.
If I say it's bad.
I don't have to go through all theother motions and all that other
stuff because I come from there.
I'm still here, and I'm stilldoing the work, 25 years later.
(12:45):
That for me, just that, that'ssomething that is earned, and
it's not bought, it's earned.
And that credibility in mycommunity makes me powerful,
because I've lived the experiences.
I'm still living them.
To do community work you've gotto be a part of the community.
(13:07):
You can't be working on a communitythat you have no connections with.
You don't know folks in it.
Now you want to tell folks whatthey need in their community.
And you don't even knowthat my lights are off.
You don't even know that my son wasshot last week, because I'm living
right here in this community doingthis work for myself and the people
(13:28):
in my community.
Aswad Thomas (13:29):
Yeah.
Callie Greer (13:30):
And to make it a safer community.
You have people that want to comein your community and they'll call
you and ask you to introduce them.
No, I got to vet
you first.
I gotta know who you are, and whoI might be introducing to my folks.
Yeah, to me, that's power, earned.
Aswad Thomas (13:52):
This concept around safety, we all want to be safe and
safety to us is more jobs, betterschools, more youth programs.
It's Investing in things likecommunity violence intervention,
victim services and trauma recoverycenters and helping people heal.
Those is what safety looks like to us.
(14:13):
This is why we are advocating acrossstates, across the country for
this new approach to public safety.
And that's what we're excited to workwith you all in Alabama to build a
movement of survivors, around a differentvision of what safety looks like.
In your, journey, you facedsome painful consequences of
what you call policy violence.
(14:36):
Can you explain, this concept topeople who may not understand it
and share how this type of systemicneglect has shown up in your life
and the lives of those around you?
Callie Greer (14:48):
So for me, constitutional laws, human laws, civil rights issues,
policies and laws, that was a whitefolk thing to me for a long time.
Of course I voted.
I was somewhat engaged.
I knew a little something, but untilmy journey was halted by the death
of my son, and these things becamepriority to me, I had to personally
(15:16):
experience the fact that I neededcertain things that I saw other folks
getting and that I couldn't get them.
I never got everything I needed,didn't know the importance
of policies being in place.
Until that happened to me with Mercury.
He was shot and there werelimited resources for me.
(15:40):
And if I may just share a littlebit about that experience, going
to court for his murder trial.
We advocated for the youngman that shot Mercury.
His name is Malcolm.
And we didn't want himto get a death sentence.
We didn't want him to get a long sentence.
We didn't want anything with lifeattached to it on a sentence to him.
(16:02):
We knew he had to, do somekind of time for the crime.
So we advocated for Malcolmto have lenient sentence.
Unbeknownst to us, we wereministering to his mom in the
corridor before it happened.
And then when she walked up and he camein, we had already spoken with her.
We literally stood side by sideand I tried to just comfort her
(16:23):
because she was crying for her son.
And, you know, I was like my son ain'tcoming back, but you can see yours.
Don't worry, we ain't coming inhere trying to get a life for
a life or anything like that.
And so we advocated for himto get a lenient sentence.
And in many cases in Alabama, thejury might say life and judges
(16:45):
were able to override that andgive people death penalties.
I'm pro-life around the board,so I would have never asked
for his life for Mercury's.
The judicial system brings moreharm when you ask for one thing
and they give you what they say youneed and that's not what you wanted.
The resources do you more harm whenyou come and say, I need this for my
(17:08):
grandchild that my son left and theytell you, No, you can get by with that.
Or, You're not eligible or thechild's not eligible because
they didn't work long enough.
Hell, he was 19 when he was killed.
How long was he supposed to work?
Since birth?
Everyday stuff just adds to the traumaand the hurt you're already going
through that should already be a rightfor you to have these things when you're
(17:33):
going through something like that.
So policies that are in place thatcreates more violence is where I
get the term policy violence from.
When you have policies that createmore harm or more loss than it
does in the healing or restorativeprocess, then that's a violent policy.
(17:55):
And I say to folks, let me just say this,to he who has an ear, let him hear that
if you are not in the know, you needto get in the know, join up with folks
like CSSJ and I say Alabama Appleseedbecause I'm there, that are already
in it and on top of all this stuff.
Because y'all will get usup to speed in no time.
(18:18):
And then now we are equipped and readyand trained, organized to go out and
fight for ourselves and get what weneed, which is the right to heal.
The right to heal encompasses so manyother damaged areas in your life.
A right to heal in your mind, a rightto heal in your soul, a right to heal
in your heart, a right to heal, period.
(18:41):
I want to remind folks when they join thatyou all give them resources to counseling.
And when they go through CSSJ, theycan get free counseling for a minute.
And as a black woman, I neverhad counseling, in my 64 years
never thought I needed it.
You need it.
You need it.
(19:02):
We need it.
And they have people thatspeak specifically to what
you need counseling from.
I'm speaking from the loss of loved ones.
They have counselors that speakto every violent crime imaginable
that you've experienced.
If you've experienced someform of violence, come.
(19:22):
Because somebody there has gonethis journey before you and you
can get healing from another humanbeing in a loving, caring way.
Aswad Thomas (19:33):
That's why Crime Survivors for Safety and Justice exists, to
fill a void that many of us had.
As an organization at the Alliancefor Safety and Justice, we've
surveyed over 15 to 20,000 victims.
I've personally talked to thousands ofvictims, since I got into this work.
Why do we talk to victims?
Why do we have these conversations?
(19:53):
Why survey crime victims through reports?
There's this popularassumption that victims want
punishment and long sentences.
This is a legacy of the traditionalvictims rights movement, which
excluded many of the people mostimpacted by violence, especially black
men and black women.
(20:14):
We
recently talked to another survivorin Tennessee on a previous episode
and she also forgave and advocatedfor the young man that murdered her
son, just as you have talked about.
People think that most victims just wanttough on crime, but most of us actually
want healing, support, rehabilitation,you just mentioned that again, it
(20:35):
just like resonates with all of ourresearch and findings over the years.
Cal, I wanted to talk moreabout policies, right?
And you lifted up some of thethings that you weren't able to
receive that you would have wanted.
I know in Alabama, victim compensationcontinues to be a big theme for us.
Most victims don't have a place to accesstrauma recovery services or get support
(21:00):
with housing relocation support or getsupport with taking the necessary time
out of work, after becoming a victimor losing a loved one to violence.
How do you think policy reform couldhelp reduce violence in communities
across the state of Alabama?
Callie Greer (21:16):
So when you experience violence, and you don't get some kind
of healing, even acknowledge that youneed that healing, or you become the
police, the judge, the jury yourself,
there's gonna be more violence.
Here for me, when Mercury waskilled, I didn't even know
(21:38):
anything about the victim's comp.
As it is here in Alabama and inMontgomery, I didn't know that there
was any help or resources for me.
I only found out through the publicdefender given to us for Mercury.
Just not even knowing where tostart, And at that moment that you
(22:00):
are traumatized and all that, nowyou got to get ready for a funeral.
Now you got to get all thesethings that a funeral calls for.
All of this traumatizing stuffis happening and you don't
even know there are resources.
You know I'm saying?
One thing that you all have been talkingabout, maybe in Michigan, that they had
gotten a trauma recovery center there
(22:22):
opened up, and I heard some of thestuff being done at that trauma recovery
center, all housed in one place.
I was like, if I had something likethat available to me, I probably would
have been farther along in some areasof healing, but because I had to deal
(22:43):
with so much other stuff and packthe real pain away until this other
immediate stuff was dealt with, by thetime I was ready to deal with this other
stuff, then something else had happenedalready, so it was never dealt with.
If that was available, here in Alabama,anywhere where people can get the
resources they need for from trauma, thereduction of violence would be I would
(23:11):
say at least 80 percent in a lot of areas.
So it makes me ask
policymakers and electedofficials, specific questions.
If people are bringing you thesesolutions and they make sense,
why aren't you fighting for them?
(23:32):
It makes me believe that this system,this systemic racism, all of this stuff
that is happening and continues to happen,
you are instigating it.
These are real solutions, helpingpeople traumatized every minute,
and you will not use them.
(23:53):
You know, you always got a reasonwhy, it doesn't work, it won't work,
it ain't no good, but you'll take
money from COVID recovery tobuild a billion dollar prison,
but will not expand Medicaid.
Make it make sense that my life mattersto you, that you're fighting for me.
Make it make sense.
Aswad Thomas (24:15):
And that is the failure of our justice system, right?
We've
spent billions of dollars into a systemthat doesn't stop cycles of crime and
violence and doesn't help victims.
This is why we've been organizingsurvivors across the country to
change this and we've been able to passover 100 reforms across the country,
(24:38):
being able to move three billiondollars out of the justice system into
communities for victim services andrehabilitation, re-entry programs,
being able to establish 54 traumarecovery centers across the country.
That's the work that we actuallywant to bring to Alabama.
What do you think about startinga Crime Survivors for Safety
(25:01):
and Justice chapter in Alabama?
Callie Greer (25:04):
Oh my goodness.
Every time we talk about it, Ithink of something else new to do.
If we had this well oiled piece ofmachinery that's already put together,
we got to reinvent the wheel and justimplement it in Montgomery and let it
(25:27):
spread like butter on a hot biscuitthroughout Alabama, how many lives will be
saved, how many wounds will start to heal.
How many minds and hearts will be changed?
CSSJ coming to Alabama, I'mgoing to be its biggest fan.
I'm going to be bringing people infor every kind of healing they need.
(25:53):
That's what it's about because ifyou don't ever heal or start the
process of healing or even knowthat you need it, then this cycle
is going to continue to happen.
Over and over again, wegotta be the interrupters.
And we can do some of thatinterrupting with CSSJ.
Cause folks gotta havesomething else to do.
(26:14):
People say stop the violence.
I'm like, stop the violence and do what?
Stop the violence is good,but stop the violence and
what?
Come organize with us.
Come join with us.
Come heal with us.
Stop the violence and do something else.
I don't want people tothink CSSJ has all the
answers.
Nobody has all the answers butthere are a lot of answers there.
Aswad Thomas (26:38):
Wow.
That's amazing.
Looking forward to you helping build anetwork of survivors across the state,
Birmingham, Montgomery, Salem, right?
Survivors who you've already been workingwith, and being able to build this,
chapter, across the state, but alsobeing able to help train survivors to
be organizers, to be advocates, train
them to share their stories, but alsomost importantly, helping them heal.
(27:02):
I really wanted to come backto your work in Alabama.
Working with Alabama Appleseed,you've become a bridge to
help connect marginalizedcommunities with policy makers.
And you talked about thepossibilities of bringing a trauma
recovery center to the state.
What role do you think crime survivors andcommunity based organizations should play
(27:26):
in shaping public policy to ensure safetyand dignity for all residents in Alabama?
Callie Greer (27:34):
I love community organizations.
There are too many of thosecommunity organizations working in
silos, individually doing stuff.
And we tend to jump fromone issue to another.
For me, I have found that when you areorganized around one or two specific
(27:54):
things, and gather your people andorganize them around that, those directly
affected people, then now you are strong.
You are educated, and Reverend WilliamBarber taught me once one thing you don't
ever want to do is be loud and wrong.
When you get into these communityorganizations, you must go
(28:16):
through the trainings, and that'sone of the things that CSSJ
always
is bringing up, always offering trainings and these drop in
sessions, and you can just call oremail and they're going to get right
back to you within that same day.
You know, when we went to D. C.over 2, 500 people, we didn't
(28:37):
go with a whole litany of stuff.
We had our specific thingwas a Right to Heal.
So we were focused on a Right to Heal.
And nobody there was deniedwhatever right they felt like they
needed and wasn't getting to heal.
That one Right To Heal billcovered all of us from all the
(29:02):
many different crimes and hurts andviolence that we had experienced.
And all of that's covered.
So nobody felt likethey wasn't being heard.
Nobody felt like their hurt wasn'tseen, that their need wasn't
being thought of or cared for.
So that's what organizingto me looks like.
(29:25):
That's what power to me looks like.
That March on Washington, D. C. Allof these different people from every
walk of life, saying, we're herebecause we have a right to heal.
And yeah, if communityorganizing was like that.
Man, stuff get moved.
Stuff get moved.
(29:45):
That's why I'm so glad to get CSSJhere to show that, type of organizing.
All of these issues comeup under this one heading.
So our call, our battlecry is a Right to Heal.
And all of us are behind itbecause we also are advocating for
(30:07):
a right to heal from something.
But whatever it is, it's covered.
You see what I'm saying?
Aswad Thomas (30:13):
It's an honor for me to do this work, to meet individuals
like you from across the countryand it makes it so easy, right?
I feel like I've knownyou for years, right?
And
it's only been a
few months
because what we've been through andour passion and commitment for
(30:35):
our families,
our communities, and this nation, right?
Around this right to heal and thisnew approach to public safety,
it resonates with anyone, right?
That's what I learned beforethe March on Washington.
I went across the country on thismulti-city tour talking about this
policy platform and it resonates witheveryone and I just received a call from
(31:00):
a survivor here in Atlanta, Georgia, a momthat lost her son to gun violence a few
years ago and, what she's facing rightnow is connected to our policy, right?
It's the victimization debtthat she's experienced after
losing her son to gun violence.
(31:22):
She's also facing not gettingaccess to victim compensation.
Don't have a place to go to get any
support to heal from that trauma.
She's been a witness of severalshootings in her apartment complex
and, out of fear of her safety,now she's living in a shelter.
And this mother, she's going throughall of that, and she's also battling
(31:44):
cancer, and to receive that calltoday just seeking out some support
and help and the one thing that shewanted help with is safe housing,
And so for me, this work and what youjust shared about the importance of
organizing, the importance of trainingsurvivors to be advocating, but really
(32:08):
pushing for this Right to Heal policy
platform.
I'm excited about this work we'regoing to do with you all in Alabama.
I see how powerful our movementwill be there, and the leaders that
we're going train, and I knowwe're going to change the victim
compensation program in Alabama.
I know we're going to
bring a trauma recovery center,hopefully multiple across
(32:29):
state and also change a lot ofcriminal justice policies in the state.
So I'm excited about thatwork with you, Callie.
I just want to thank you andappreciate you for your decades
of commitment to this work.
So if you are out there and you areinterested in learning more about CSSJ,
please go to our website at www.cssj.org.
(32:52):
If you are in Alabama, we will bedeveloping chapter of Crime Survivors for
Safety and Justice in Alabama in 2025.
So Callie, thank youso much for joining us.
Thank you, Aswad.
Thank you, Y'all guys are amazing.
Y'all about to work and I'm about y'all.
Just know that, you arepart of a community.
We're here for you.
We'll continue to support you and wejust want to thank you for being, a true
(33:14):
definition of a crime survivor that'sadvocating for safety and justice.
So thank you so much to all of our
listeners today.
And also remember to stay tuned toall podcast episodes on YouTube,
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, andother streaming platforms as well.
We are healing through action andCallie, I'm going to test you out.
When survivors speak,
Callie Greer (33:35):
Change
happens.
Aswad Thomas (33:36):
Change happens.
Thank you all so much.
We'll talk to y'all in the next episode.
Welcome to the Crime Survivors Speak podcast.
My name is Aswad Thomas.
I'm the National Director of CrimeSurvivors for Safety and Justice.
We are a national network, over 200,000victims of crime from across the country.
If you haven't subscribed, you can dothat on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
and other services by clicking thelink or going to www.cssj.org/podcast.
(00:27):
I'm excited to talk to anotheramazing survivor leader.
Our guest today is Callie Greer, a longtime grassroots community organizer who
currently serve as the community navigatorfor Alabama Appleseed, an organization
that helps marginalized communitieshave a bigger voice in policymaking.
(00:49):
Callie has experienced deep personalloss as a result of gun violence,
as well as medical neglect.
She now passionately advocatesfor Medicaid expansion and
reducing gun violence as apowerful legacy for her children.
She's also one of our newestmembers of the CSSJ family.
Callie is committed to building asafer, healthier future in Alabama.
(01:13):
Welcome to the podcast, Callie.
Callie Greer (01:16):
Thank you, Aswad.
I tell you, I'm honored.
It is a pleasure.
I'm excited.
I've been looking forward to this.
Aswad Thomas (01:21):
Awesome.
So let's dive right into it.
So to begin, we have to startwith the Crime Survivors Speak
March on Washington in September.
What was it like for you to travel toDC other survivors from Alabama, to be
in community with survivors from acrossthe country, advocating for a right to
heal and a new approach to public safety.
Callie Greer (01:42):
I'm gonna give you as much of the emotions and feelings and
experiences I can about that March on DC.
Because of the way I look at life, it'swhat I term as a terribly beautiful thing.
Thousands of us gathered together.
There were men and there were women.
There were young and older people,babies, famous people, musical artists,
(02:04):
politicians, doctors, lawyers, areal representation of America.
That's a beautiful thing, right?
And we were gathered togetherbecause we or someone we love
are survivors of a terribleviolent crime that happened to us.
So we were mourning , smiling,crying and celebrating our survival,
(02:25):
our loss, and our healing process.
Advocating for a more justpolicy for our communities.
Which is America, that's our community.
So we came advocating peacefully andwe embraced familiar strangers that
was fighting for me and I was fightingfor them and we were fighting for us.
(02:47):
It was a terribly beautiful thing, andI just need to say for me, CSSJ has
made advocating a terribly beautifulthing and it continues to help me not to
waste my pain, you know, cause so manythings happen in that small space of time
that I'm still savoring and recoveringthoughts and scenes and actions and,
(03:12):
seeing people hugging each other thatdidn't even know each other and were
supporting each other, even in the rain.
I've gone to numerous marches and rallies.
Been to DC many times, but evenif we did it again, I don't know
if it would even compare to howyou brought all of us thousands
healing, grieving, celebrating,mourning, crying survivors together
(03:38):
to make change for ourselves.
It was amazing.
Aswad Thomas (03:41):
Yes, it was truly amazing.
The community thatwe've been able to build
with each other across the country,and you played a key role in that
for months leading up to that Marchon Washington, being on a lot of our
partner organization calls and helpingto organize people from your community
to take that long bus ride to Washington,
DC.
So I appreciate you all participatingin that event to really be unified as a
(04:05):
survivor network especially for survivorsfrom underserved communities of color.
And at times we don't havea voice in public policy,
especially at the local, state
and at the federal level.
So, we're excited about all of thefederal advocacy we'll continue to
do as it relates to the March onWashington and our policy platform,
the Right to Heal Bill willpotentially be released early in 2025.
(04:27):
I want to ask you anotherquestion just related to CSSJ.
So you've been very active with us forthe past few months planning for the
March on Washington event, but you'vejoined trainings, you've been an active
participant in the monthly WellnessWednesday event in the Drop in Healing
Spaces call.
(04:47):
Can you talk about, how thathelped you and your healing?
Callie Greer (04:51):
My pleasure.
it's become like a prescription forme for experiences that I continue to
have for this loss of our children,that no doctor could have prescribed.
It's been 25 years since we lost Mercuryand 13 since we lost Venus and that
length of time even myself and otherpeople would think that all of those
(05:12):
areas had been attended to but some ofthe thoughts and words that are spoken
at these gatherings have shown me thatI've, in a way, just started my healing
journey because some of the things thatI have not been given access to, to
be able to express my trauma, and forreal though, just to be honest, I never
(05:38):
thought of myself as a trauma victim.
I've lost two children to differentforms of violence and had other violent
experiences in my life, because of theway I was raised, because I'm older black
woman, I wasn't raised in a way thattrauma was a word that was used in our
vocabulary, that we knew anything about.
(06:00):
Survival has alwaysbeen the code to live.
All these terms and what they meantjust opened up places that I thought
were alright, and helped me to bealright with them, and hear from
other women and men that had alreadybecome aware of those places and what
(06:22):
they did to come through it and whatthey're doing now to hold on to it.
It's such a wealth of healingbalm and ointments in these
gatherings, that have nurtured mein ways I didn't know I needed.
I turn off my camera a lot becauseI'm just sitting here crying.
I have questions that I feel shouldhave been answered in 1999 or later
(06:45):
that had not been answered so yesI mean you just people just got to
come for themselves because everybodyexperienced a different thing and I've
been sharing it on my Facebook page.
I've been sharing in the conversations.
I've been sharing it at staff meetings.
I can't tell y'all what you'regonna experience but you need
to come, you need to sit in.
I mean you owe it to yourself to doa Wellness Wednesday and do a Healing
(07:07):
Thursday event and a few people havejoined and they say they're coming
back and bringing other people.
Healing with other humans that arehealing, and I say humans because a
lot of times for me and a lot of otherpeople, mostly black women that I share
(07:28):
with, that I do my work with, havebeen so dehumanized and so discounted,
even at the death of our children.
Just love them as a human, asa mother, that has lost in such
a way, that you are allowed toweep, that's your right to heal.
(07:50):
And when you all said that, I was like,damn, I gotta have a right to heal?
Yes!
For a long time, I did not have thatright in unspoken words, ways, and deeds
that right was denied to me to heal.
Aswad Thomas (08:06):
Yep.
Callie Greer (08:07):
When I would ask for stuff that I would need.
I was denied it.
it's crazy, to connect those dotsthat I did not and still do not have a
complete right to heal from my lossesas a mother, as a woman, as a black
(08:28):
woman, as a recovered drug user, asa recovered woman that was formerly
incarcerated with all those labels thatpeople put on you that dehumanize you.
I have a right to heal and I haveto fight for that right to heal.
(08:51):
I'm still struggling with that.
Let me just be honest, whitewomen when something happens, the
world runs to their rescue, andI'm like Hey, did you not hear?
This is a everyday thing in my community.
Have you just not heard?
It's not valued.
It's discounted.
It's, supposed to be thenorm for us and it's not.
(09:14):
It's not humane and I am human.
We are human.
Aswad Thomas (09:18):
I could listen to you all day.
Really uplifting that last pointof the racial disparities that
exists in victim services about whoget help and who don't get help.
For our listeners out there, CrimeSurvivors for Safety and Justice,
we organize survivors, train themto be leaders, to change policies
and host events like SurvivorsSpeak and town halls, most
(09:39):
importantly through our member supportprogram, we're helping survivors on
that healing journey, getting accessto counseling via our partnership
with BetterHelp, peer to peer support.
For our survivors and our
members online and also in communities, we host every month these drop in calls
that Callie was just describing, that isa space for survivors, led by survivors.
(10:03):
We're excited to continue to grow ourmember support program because helping
survivors get access to the support andhealing that helps them and helps all
of us want to get involved in organizingadvocacy and also changing policy.
You have to help peopleheal first as well.
So you've had your own interactionswith the justice system, have
(10:25):
several family members impactedby violence in the past, right?
And now, you work as acommunity leader in policy.
What does it mean to you to have gonefrom those experiences, and you being
a survivor yourself and having lovedones who have been impacted by violence,
to being a powerful leader working tomake your community in Alabama safer?
Callie Greer (10:47):
I sit with this question for a minute.
People see power in different ways, andpeople see leaders in different ways.
To me, to be powerful, you gottasit, stand, and walk in that power.
Being those things in my communityis different from being those
things outside my community.
(11:08):
In my community, folks saw me, some evenlived some experiences with me from drug
abuse, being incarcerated, and beingdelivered from drugs, and then the loss
of two children, and being on that side ofthe justice system, and now being on this
side of the justice system and been doingthis work for 25 years, trying to make
(11:34):
life more humane, make it just and fair.
I want to make it just as fair,just as safe as it is for everyone
else that are living in America.
Having had my community beingmy witnesses, I don't have to
(11:59):
make believers out of them.
They know that I'm for real aboutwhat I'm doing, because they've seen
the transformations for themselves.
So that makes me a crediblemessenger, I don't have to do a
song and dance in my community.
With any information that I'mbringing, they know every fight I
(12:22):
am fighting, I literally havebeen directly affected by it.
So if I'm coming to tellyou something, it's true.
If I say it's good.
If I say it's bad.
I don't have to go through all theother motions and all that other
stuff because I come from there.
I'm still here, and I'm stilldoing the work, 25 years later.
(12:45):
That for me, just that, that'ssomething that is earned, and
it's not bought, it's earned.
And that credibility in mycommunity makes me powerful,
because I've lived the experiences.
I'm still living them.
To do community work you've gotto be a part of the community.
(13:07):
You can't be working on a communitythat you have no connections with.
You don't know folks in it.
Now you want to tell folks whatthey need in their community.
And you don't even knowthat my lights are off.
You don't even know that my son wasshot last week, because I'm living
right here in this community doingthis work for myself and the people
(13:28):
in my community.
Aswad Thomas (13:29):
Yeah.
Callie Greer (13:30):
And to make it a safer community.
You have people that want to comein your community and they'll call
you and ask you to introduce them.
No, I got to vet
you first.
I gotta know who you are, and whoI might be introducing to my folks.
Yeah, to me, that's power, earned.
Aswad Thomas (13:52):
This concept around safety, we all want to be safe and
safety to us is more jobs, betterschools, more youth programs.
It's Investing in things likecommunity violence intervention,
victim services and trauma recoverycenters and helping people heal.
Those is what safety looks like to us.
(14:13):
This is why we are advocating acrossstates, across the country for
this new approach to public safety.
And that's what we're excited to workwith you all in Alabama to build a
movement of survivors, around a differentvision of what safety looks like.
In your, journey, you facedsome painful consequences of
what you call policy violence.
(14:36):
Can you explain, this concept topeople who may not understand it
and share how this type of systemicneglect has shown up in your life
and the lives of those around you?
Callie Greer (14:48):
So for me, constitutional laws, human laws, civil rights issues,
policies and laws, that was a whitefolk thing to me for a long time.
Of course I voted.
I was somewhat engaged.
I knew a little something, but untilmy journey was halted by the death
of my son, and these things becamepriority to me, I had to personally
(15:16):
experience the fact that I neededcertain things that I saw other folks
getting and that I couldn't get them.
I never got everything I needed,didn't know the importance
of policies being in place.
Until that happened to me with Mercury.
He was shot and there werelimited resources for me.
(15:40):
And if I may just share a littlebit about that experience, going
to court for his murder trial.
We advocated for the youngman that shot Mercury.
His name is Malcolm.
And we didn't want himto get a death sentence.
We didn't want him to get a long sentence.
We didn't want anything with lifeattached to it on a sentence to him.
(16:02):
We knew he had to, do somekind of time for the crime.
So we advocated for Malcolmto have lenient sentence.
Unbeknownst to us, we wereministering to his mom in the
corridor before it happened.
And then when she walked up and he camein, we had already spoken with her.
We literally stood side by sideand I tried to just comfort her
(16:23):
because she was crying for her son.
And, you know, I was like my son ain'tcoming back, but you can see yours.
Don't worry, we ain't coming inhere trying to get a life for
a life or anything like that.
And so we advocated for himto get a lenient sentence.
And in many cases in Alabama, thejury might say life and judges
(16:45):
were able to override that andgive people death penalties.
I'm pro-life around the board,so I would have never asked
for his life for Mercury's.
The judicial system brings moreharm when you ask for one thing
and they give you what they say youneed and that's not what you wanted.
The resources do you more harm whenyou come and say, I need this for my
(17:08):
grandchild that my son left and theytell you, No, you can get by with that.
Or, You're not eligible or thechild's not eligible because
they didn't work long enough.
Hell, he was 19 when he was killed.
How long was he supposed to work?
Since birth?
Everyday stuff just adds to the traumaand the hurt you're already going
through that should already be a rightfor you to have these things when you're
(17:33):
going through something like that.
So policies that are in place thatcreates more violence is where I
get the term policy violence from.
When you have policies that createmore harm or more loss than it
does in the healing or restorativeprocess, then that's a violent policy.
(17:55):
And I say to folks, let me just say this,to he who has an ear, let him hear that
if you are not in the know, you needto get in the know, join up with folks
like CSSJ and I say Alabama Appleseedbecause I'm there, that are already
in it and on top of all this stuff.
Because y'all will get usup to speed in no time.
(18:18):
And then now we are equipped and readyand trained, organized to go out and
fight for ourselves and get what weneed, which is the right to heal.
The right to heal encompasses so manyother damaged areas in your life.
A right to heal in your mind, a rightto heal in your soul, a right to heal
in your heart, a right to heal, period.
(18:41):
I want to remind folks when they join thatyou all give them resources to counseling.
And when they go through CSSJ, theycan get free counseling for a minute.
And as a black woman, I neverhad counseling, in my 64 years
never thought I needed it.
You need it.
You need it.
(19:02):
We need it.
And they have people thatspeak specifically to what
you need counseling from.
I'm speaking from the loss of loved ones.
They have counselors that speakto every violent crime imaginable
that you've experienced.
If you've experienced someform of violence, come.
(19:22):
Because somebody there has gonethis journey before you and you
can get healing from another humanbeing in a loving, caring way.
Aswad Thomas (19:33):
That's why Crime Survivors for Safety and Justice exists, to
fill a void that many of us had.
As an organization at the Alliancefor Safety and Justice, we've
surveyed over 15 to 20,000 victims.
I've personally talked to thousands ofvictims, since I got into this work.
Why do we talk to victims?
Why do we have these conversations?
(19:53):
Why survey crime victims through reports?
There's this popularassumption that victims want
punishment and long sentences.
This is a legacy of the traditionalvictims rights movement, which
excluded many of the people mostimpacted by violence, especially black
men and black women.
(20:14):
We
recently talked to another survivorin Tennessee on a previous episode
and she also forgave and advocatedfor the young man that murdered her
son, just as you have talked about.
People think that most victims just wanttough on crime, but most of us actually
want healing, support, rehabilitation,you just mentioned that again, it
(20:35):
just like resonates with all of ourresearch and findings over the years.
Cal, I wanted to talk moreabout policies, right?
And you lifted up some of thethings that you weren't able to
receive that you would have wanted.
I know in Alabama, victim compensationcontinues to be a big theme for us.
Most victims don't have a place to accesstrauma recovery services or get support
(21:00):
with housing relocation support or getsupport with taking the necessary time
out of work, after becoming a victimor losing a loved one to violence.
How do you think policy reform couldhelp reduce violence in communities
across the state of Alabama?
Callie Greer (21:16):
So when you experience violence, and you don't get some kind
of healing, even acknowledge that youneed that healing, or you become the
police, the judge, the jury yourself,
there's gonna be more violence.
Here for me, when Mercury waskilled, I didn't even know
(21:38):
anything about the victim's comp.
As it is here in Alabama and inMontgomery, I didn't know that there
was any help or resources for me.
I only found out through the publicdefender given to us for Mercury.
Just not even knowing where tostart, And at that moment that you
(22:00):
are traumatized and all that, nowyou got to get ready for a funeral.
Now you got to get all thesethings that a funeral calls for.
All of this traumatizing stuffis happening and you don't
even know there are resources.
You know I'm saying?
One thing that you all have been talkingabout, maybe in Michigan, that they had
gotten a trauma recovery center there
(22:22):
opened up, and I heard some of thestuff being done at that trauma recovery
center, all housed in one place.
I was like, if I had something likethat available to me, I probably would
have been farther along in some areasof healing, but because I had to deal
(22:43):
with so much other stuff and packthe real pain away until this other
immediate stuff was dealt with, by thetime I was ready to deal with this other
stuff, then something else had happenedalready, so it was never dealt with.
If that was available, here in Alabama,anywhere where people can get the
resources they need for from trauma, thereduction of violence would be I would
(23:11):
say at least 80 percent in a lot of areas.
So it makes me ask
policymakers and electedofficials, specific questions.
If people are bringing you thesesolutions and they make sense,
why aren't you fighting for them?
(23:32):
It makes me believe that this system,this systemic racism, all of this stuff
that is happening and continues to happen,
you are instigating it.
These are real solutions, helpingpeople traumatized every minute,
and you will not use them.
(23:53):
You know, you always got a reasonwhy, it doesn't work, it won't work,
it ain't no good, but you'll take
money from COVID recovery tobuild a billion dollar prison,
but will not expand Medicaid.
Make it make sense that my life mattersto you, that you're fighting for me.
Make it make sense.
Aswad Thomas (24:15):
And that is the failure of our justice system, right?
We've
spent billions of dollars into a systemthat doesn't stop cycles of crime and
violence and doesn't help victims.
This is why we've been organizingsurvivors across the country to
change this and we've been able to passover 100 reforms across the country,
(24:38):
being able to move three billiondollars out of the justice system into
communities for victim services andrehabilitation, re-entry programs,
being able to establish 54 traumarecovery centers across the country.
That's the work that we actuallywant to bring to Alabama.
What do you think about startinga Crime Survivors for Safety
(25:01):
and Justice chapter in Alabama?
Callie Greer (25:04):
Oh my goodness.
Every time we talk about it, Ithink of something else new to do.
If we had this well oiled piece ofmachinery that's already put together,
we got to reinvent the wheel and justimplement it in Montgomery and let it
(25:27):
spread like butter on a hot biscuitthroughout Alabama, how many lives will be
saved, how many wounds will start to heal.
How many minds and hearts will be changed?
CSSJ coming to Alabama, I'mgoing to be its biggest fan.
I'm going to be bringing people infor every kind of healing they need.
(25:53):
That's what it's about because ifyou don't ever heal or start the
process of healing or even knowthat you need it, then this cycle
is going to continue to happen.
Over and over again, wegotta be the interrupters.
And we can do some of thatinterrupting with CSSJ.
Cause folks gotta havesomething else to do.
(26:14):
People say stop the violence.
I'm like, stop the violence and do what?
Stop the violence is good,but stop the violence and
what?
Come organize with us.
Come join with us.
Come heal with us.
Stop the violence and do something else.
I don't want people tothink CSSJ has all the
answers.
Nobody has all the answers butthere are a lot of answers there.
Aswad Thomas (26:38):
Wow.
That's amazing.
Looking forward to you helping build anetwork of survivors across the state,
Birmingham, Montgomery, Salem, right?
Survivors who you've already been workingwith, and being able to build this,
chapter, across the state, but alsobeing able to help train survivors to
be organizers, to be advocates, train
them to share their stories, but alsomost importantly, helping them heal.
(27:02):
I really wanted to come backto your work in Alabama.
Working with Alabama Appleseed,you've become a bridge to
help connect marginalizedcommunities with policy makers.
And you talked about thepossibilities of bringing a trauma
recovery center to the state.
What role do you think crime survivors andcommunity based organizations should play
(27:26):
in shaping public policy to ensure safetyand dignity for all residents in Alabama?
Callie Greer (27:34):
I love community organizations.
There are too many of thosecommunity organizations working in
silos, individually doing stuff.
And we tend to jump fromone issue to another.
For me, I have found that when you areorganized around one or two specific
(27:54):
things, and gather your people andorganize them around that, those directly
affected people, then now you are strong.
You are educated, and Reverend WilliamBarber taught me once one thing you don't
ever want to do is be loud and wrong.
When you get into these communityorganizations, you must go
(28:16):
through the trainings, and that'sone of the things that CSSJ
always
is bringing up, always offering trainings and these drop in
sessions, and you can just call oremail and they're going to get right
back to you within that same day.
You know, when we went to D. C.over 2, 500 people, we didn't
(28:37):
go with a whole litany of stuff.
We had our specific thingwas a Right to Heal.
So we were focused on a Right to Heal.
And nobody there was deniedwhatever right they felt like they
needed and wasn't getting to heal.
That one Right To Heal billcovered all of us from all the
(29:02):
many different crimes and hurts andviolence that we had experienced.
And all of that's covered.
So nobody felt likethey wasn't being heard.
Nobody felt like their hurt wasn'tseen, that their need wasn't
being thought of or cared for.
So that's what organizingto me looks like.
(29:25):
That's what power to me looks like.
That March on Washington, D. C. Allof these different people from every
walk of life, saying, we're herebecause we have a right to heal.
And yeah, if communityorganizing was like that.
Man, stuff get moved.
Stuff get moved.
(29:45):
That's why I'm so glad to get CSSJhere to show that, type of organizing.
All of these issues comeup under this one heading.
So our call, our battlecry is a Right to Heal.
And all of us are behind itbecause we also are advocating for
(30:07):
a right to heal from something.
But whatever it is, it's covered.
You see what I'm saying?
Aswad Thomas (30:13):
It's an honor for me to do this work, to meet individuals
like you from across the countryand it makes it so easy, right?
I feel like I've knownyou for years, right?
And
it's only been a
few months
because what we've been through andour passion and commitment for
(30:35):
our families,
our communities, and this nation, right?
Around this right to heal and thisnew approach to public safety,
it resonates with anyone, right?
That's what I learned beforethe March on Washington.
I went across the country on thismulti-city tour talking about this
policy platform and it resonates witheveryone and I just received a call from
(31:00):
a survivor here in Atlanta, Georgia, a momthat lost her son to gun violence a few
years ago and, what she's facing rightnow is connected to our policy, right?
It's the victimization debtthat she's experienced after
losing her son to gun violence.
(31:22):
She's also facing not gettingaccess to victim compensation.
Don't have a place to go to get any
support to heal from that trauma.
She's been a witness of severalshootings in her apartment complex
and, out of fear of her safety,now she's living in a shelter.
And this mother, she's going throughall of that, and she's also battling
(31:44):
cancer, and to receive that calltoday just seeking out some support
and help and the one thing that shewanted help with is safe housing,
And so for me, this work and what youjust shared about the importance of
organizing, the importance of trainingsurvivors to be advocating, but really
(32:08):
pushing for this Right to Heal policy
platform.
I'm excited about this work we'regoing to do with you all in Alabama.
I see how powerful our movementwill be there, and the leaders that
we're going train, and I knowwe're going to change the victim
compensation program in Alabama.
I know we're going to
bring a trauma recovery center,hopefully multiple across
(32:29):
state and also change a lot ofcriminal justice policies in the state.
So I'm excited about thatwork with you, Callie.
I just want to thank you andappreciate you for your decades
of commitment to this work.
So if you are out there and you areinterested in learning more about CSSJ,
please go to our website at www.cssj.org.
(32:52):
If you are in Alabama, we will bedeveloping chapter of Crime Survivors for
Safety and Justice in Alabama in 2025.
So Callie, thank youso much for joining us.
Thank you, Aswad.
Thank you, Y'all guys are amazing.
Y'all about to work and I'm about y'all.
Just know that, you arepart of a community.
We're here for you.
We'll continue to support you and wejust want to thank you for being, a true
(33:14):
definition of a crime survivor that'sadvocating for safety and justice.
So thank you so much to all of our
listeners today.
And also remember to stay tuned toall podcast episodes on YouTube,
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, andother streaming platforms as well.
We are healing through action andCallie, I'm going to test you out.
When survivors speak,
Callie Greer (33:35):
Change
happens.
Aswad Thomas (33:36):
Change happens.
Thank you all so much.
We'll talk to y'all in the next episode.
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