Fager Family Murders

During the '70s and '80s, a shadow of terror loomed over Wichita, Kansas, as the community was rocked by a series of horrific crimes. Although the infamous BTK was responsible for many of these heinous acts, some remained unconnected to his reign of terror. Among these was a chilling case from 1987, where a father and his two daughters were brutally slain in their own home. The mystery that persists: Who was behind these murders, and what was the motive?

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Episode Transcript

(00:39):
Welcome to crime Pedia. I amyour host this week. My name is
Morgan. I apologize for my breathingwith me as always with my true crime
BFF. It is a lovely cherry. Hello Cherry. How are you?
Hello Morgan? And I'm not takingany breaths either, No breathing, no
breathing in this episode. So weso last week we talked to you.

(01:02):
We did a fun episode last weekbecause it was Halloween, we decided to
do a trick episode and a treatepisodes. You've got two different cases in
one episode, Morgan's case and mycase, and we wanted you to guess
which one was real and which onewas fake. I can say that eighty
three percent of you got it wrong. So if you guessed that Morgan's case

(01:23):
was the real case, you werewrong. It was my case that was
the real case, and Morgan's case, which was the AI generated case,
and they were very convincing. Ilistened back to that yours and it was
very very convincing. So well doneyou because you managed to fall everywhere.
Yeah, I didn't think it waslike after we recorded, I'm like,
oh man, everyone's gonna know.I was like, they happen, No,

(01:46):
they didn't know. Well, SamDutton got it right, em got
it right, and Broner got itright. Quite a few of our patrons
also got it right, but Meghanand Lisa, Kai, Paul, Samantha,
Russell, Winston and more of youall got it wrong. But thank
you so much for taking part andfor giving us your answers, because it
was fun to watch Morgan and Iboth of us watching everybody like cast their

(02:07):
votes going ah, we forled you, We for you as well. It
gave us endless entertainment last week.So thank you so much for that.
We appreciate it. Very good,Cherry, we do need to have what
do you need to say? Thankyou to a new Patreon this week.
Her name is Kelly, So Kelly, thank you for joining us. We

(02:28):
absolutely appreciate it. Yeah, andif you want to join our patreon,
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(02:49):
going on, but it's just abit of fun. People always ask us
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(03:09):
you to give us a review.If you can do five stars is always
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the show, then share us withyour friends. We are not proud,
don't mind if you share us.Absolutely so, Cherry, I have a

(03:30):
new case for us this week isa true case. I did not make
this up. This one. We'regoing to go back to nineteen eighty seven
to Kansas and we are going todiscuss the Faguer family murders. During the

(03:50):
seventies and eighties, a shadow ofterror loomed over which you're talk Kansas as
community was rocked by a series ofhorrific crimes. Although the infamous b DK
was responsible for many of these heinousacts, some remained unconnected to his reign
of terror. Among these with achilling case from nineteen eighty seven where a

(04:14):
father and his two daughters were brutallyslain in their own home. The mystery
that persists, who is behind thesemurders and what was the motive? This
is Crimepedia and this is the Fagerfamily murders, all right, Cherry.

(04:40):
On December thirty first, nineteen eightyseven, Mary Fager returned to her Wichital,
Kansas home after a three day visitwith her parents, only to be
met with a horrifying scene. Justbeyond the front entrance lay her husband,
thirty seven year old Melvin Philip Fager, fully closed and still in a winter
coat, lifeless life on his back. The house did not appear to have

(05:02):
been broken into, and it hadnot been ransacked. She would immediately run
across the street to seek help froma neighbor. The figures had two daughters,
sixteen year old Kelly, who wasa junior at Southeast High School,
in nine year old Sherry, whowas a third grader at Jefferson Elementary.
Mary was not worried about the girlswhen she arrived home because she assumed that

(05:24):
the two had gone somewhere in thegray nineteen eighty three Volkswagen Rabbit, which
Kelly would would sometimes drive. Shewasn't so she wasn't worried. I mean,
coming home and finding your husband deadand your girl's not there, I
would be worried, sick. Wherethe hell the girls? What? Oh
yeah, that'd be my first thoughtwas like, yeah, really as the
kids? Yeah okay, But sheshe indicated that she like her first first

(05:48):
thought, what didn't go to thegirls? It was like, oh,
my god, what happened to Philip? Yeah, and you know, trying
to get help. She noticed thatthe car wasn't there, and so her
assumption was, Oh, the girlsmust have went somewhere, and you know,
they have no idea what happened.Well, someone killed your husband and
stole your children. Oh no,absolutely, that would be my first Maybe
that's just because we do this job, but that would be my first thought.

(06:10):
Was it someone's hurt my husband,stolen my kids. We no,
I completely agree, Yeah, Ican't really agree with you. Now.
Once police arrived on the scene,and began to investigate. They would make
another gruesome discovery. Oh. Undera fabric covered hot tub located in a
recently completed addition to the to thefamily home, investigators discovered the buys of

(06:31):
Kelly and Sherry submerged in ninety twodegree water. Oh No. Mary would
be told of the discovery while beinginterviewed at the police station. Now,
autopsies would determine that Philip had beenshot twice in the back from close range,
with one being almost point blank.One bullet pierced his heart and passed

(06:51):
through his chest. It was believedthat the perpetrator had a thirty eight caliber
handgun that was used. Sharry waswearing light clothes, perhaps pajamas when she
was found floating in the hot tub. She had been bound with electrical tape
and placed in the water. Nowit appeared that she had also been strangled

(07:12):
with the same tape. So sowhoever, so she had been strangled,
bowed, and put into the water. You've got to be some kind of
monster to do that to a kid. No, really, I mean you
really must have to to do somethinglike that to a child. That's just
that's horrific. There's no excuse forthat, no, exactly exactly now to

(07:36):
believe that she had either been strangledto death in place in the water,
or was near death and left todrowned. The corner would note that Sherry
may have had just enough life tobreathe in some water before drowning. Oh,
that's terrible. I don't think theyneed to give these kind of details
to the family mentally, you know, what does that do to you when

(07:57):
you find out that your child hasmet that kind of end. That's horrific
for a mother to have to hear. What not only did they give this
news to the to the family thatthey actually this was reported in local newspapers,
So they went to the media andthey told the media this. I
mean, that's that's really really harsh. That's awful. For the moment,

(08:20):
I feel like there is a fineline between what information you should be presenting
to the media. Yeah, Iagree, and I don't something like this
seems yeah exactly, something like thisseems like it's gone beyond that line,
Like this a little too much?Yeah, I agree. Now, Kelly,

(08:41):
she was a sixteen year old.She was found nude floating in the
same hot tub. She too haddrowned, but it did not appear as
though she had been bound, andthere were no apparent injuries on her body.
Now, there were traits of asemen that were found in the hot
tub. So still to me,already it this is how I this is

(09:05):
what I picture. I picture thatKelly was the target of this. It
sounds like it sounds sexual, right, Yeah, it sounds like Kelly was
who the perpetrator was after. Soundslike Sherry just had to be you know,
was how to be dealt with becauseyou know she's an eyewitness. Yeah,
and it sounds like Philip just walkedin on it. So to me,

(09:28):
Philip probably came home the murderer wasstill there with surprised and shot him
and killed him before he could react. Okay, So that's that's how I
picture it. It was estimated thatthe family had died within twenty four hours
of the discovery of their bodies,so that would put their death anywhere on

(09:50):
this between December thirtieth and the afternoonof December thirty First. I believe that
Mary at home it was about oneor thirty pm, So it could have
been the night before, it couldhave been that morning, you know,
we're not We're not one hund percentsure what time it was. Now,

(10:11):
since there was no side to forceentry, investigative believe that the perpetrator was
either known to the family or someonewho would have been able to talk their
way into the home. Yeah,okay, which I think makes the most
sense since there was no force entry, there was no It doesn't look like
there was a robbery. It hadn'tbeen ransacked, so it sounds like whoever

(10:33):
did this was able to gain entrywithout really having any issues, and you
know, it sounds like there theirhope was that they would have been able
to get out of the house withoutbeing caught. So I don't think they
expected Philip to show up, sothey probably had some sort of idea of

(10:54):
like what his work schedule was andwhen when they would have expected to see
him come home. So that's whyI kind of believe that that Philip was
shot after returning home and coming faceto face to killer. Right, so
the killer wasn't expecting Philip to bethere. He shows up and then he
has to kill Phillip as well.Now police would immediately begin to question everyone

(11:18):
who had dealings with the family,so this included friends, relatives, neighbors,
and co workers. There was oneavenue that investigators would downplay, which
was any connection between this case andBTK right, who is now known as

(11:39):
Dennis Raider. Yeah, I don'twant to say now known as we now
know him, BTK was Dennis Raider. Now, Dennis Rader actually terrorized Wichita
where this occurred, beginning in nineteenseventy four. So at the time of
the Fager murders, Dennis Rader hadbeen attributed to the killings of seven people,

(12:00):
with the last occurring in nineteen seventyseven. There had been at least
two additional murders, which occurred innineteen eighty five in nineteen eighty six,
which had not yet been linked toDennis Raider. Now he would also after
being caught, he would plead guiltyto one additional murder that occurred after the
Figer family murders, that being astrangulation death of Dolores Davis in nineteen eighty

(12:20):
one. So we know that aroundthis time he was active. Right,
so he had committed he had committedmurders just before and after the Figer family,
the Figure family was murdered. Buthe's not actually he's not actually said
anything about this, soe well listento this. A few days after the

(12:45):
murders, Mary figer repoortedly received aletter in the mail from BTK which stated
that he was a fan of themurderer's work, but he was not the
person who killed her family. He'sa fine yeah, all if you don't
know anything, and not everybody does. I don't want to take it for
granted that everybody knows about the BTKmurders. BTK was a prolific serial killer

(13:07):
in America during the seventies through tothe eighties. Was it seventies and eighties?
Yeah, mostly seventies and then alittle bit in the seventies and beginning
early nineties. He was a veryit was a very traumatic. He was
a very nasty, evil serial killerthat used to torture his victims and torture

(13:31):
the other family members in the housesas well, and it was I think
it was a reign of terror.People were terrified during that time that they
were going to be next because hewouldn't care if there were men in the
house. He would rape women infront of their husbands. He was a
seriously nasty, nasty piece of work, and it was. It was horrific.

(13:54):
If you ever read any books aboutit is and I listened to the
court case of and his Radar,it's horrific. It seems like a film.
It doesn't seem like something that areal person would do. It's it's
awful. And so for him tothen write to her and say, I
admire the work of the person thatkilled your your children and your husband,

(14:18):
that's sick. I'm surprised that thatletter was allowed to come out of jail.
Oh he wasn't in jail. Well, we didn't catch him, by
the way, and he sent it. Okay, no, no, he
was still out. He was stillfree. He was still free. But
still to send that to someone ishorridic. He was sick, isn't he?
He is horrific. I mean hewas. He subjected to people to

(14:39):
untold, untold terror. It was. It was awful. What's crazy,
as you mentioned it, like youknow, he terrorized people like people were
scared and films. Yeah, Imean families would would were were getting alarm
systems put in their house and DennisRaider BTK was one of the guys that

(15:00):
was installing. He worked for ADTthe security company, and these people that
were afraid of him, and they'regetting these alarm systems put in because of
him. He's the one that's installingthem. And if you don't know why
he's BTK, is because it washow he used to sign his letters to
the police, wasn't it was buyingtorture kill. That's what's the way the

(15:22):
BTK came from. We know howthe media likes to give people names like
serial killers, these like really scarynames, but that is what he was.
Morgan is one hundred percent right.That's exactly what he used to do.
He used to go in and fitthese security systems into houses. People
were thinking they're safe, and they'retalking to him about having this fitted because
of this nuts guy that's going aroundtorturing people and murdering and raping people,

(15:43):
and he's right there installing their equipment. It's just it's like a story,
it really is. It's unbelievable.I mean, just from what we know
about how the girls were found andthen also with Philip how he was shot,
it doesn't sound like Denis Rader tome. Yes, you know Sherry

(16:06):
was bound with duct with not ducttape but electrical tape. Yeah, but
I think that was more of likeand it was just used to strangle her.
There was no signs that anyone wastortured. No, you have Kelly
who wasn't who was not bound,was not tortured, right, Well,
she was nude and obviously she wasin the she was new, so we

(16:27):
don't know if she was to No. No, yeah, absolutely, but
it it doesn't really fit necessarily,Like no, I understand you. Yeah,
so this seems like I don't know, like he he did get transfixed

(16:51):
on people, so he normally hewould have like one a target who he
becomes transfer he became transfixed on,He would stalk, he would you know,
watch them. So yeah, yeah, maybe Kelly was was would have
fit that bill right, so hewas he was stocking her. But besides
that, it doesn't seem to beanything that it would indicate that it was
him. Yeah, And like Isaid, we know that that there was

(17:17):
no sign of forced entry there,so I don't know if he would have
been able to get in without havingwithout without breaking in. Was it the
kind of area that their doors unlocked, because back in the eighties, like
we didn't lock our front door inthe street that we lived in. Were
we people will be able to walkin and out of each other's houses.
And we didn't ever lock our frontdoor. We never locked the back door

(17:37):
unless we were going to bed andno one was in the house during the
day, we wouldn't. I wouldused to go in and out of my
friend's houses in the street and nobodywould lock their front door. So I'm
wondering if maybe it was like thatthere. It was question So it's that
it was an affluent area, ofwhich yeah, which I would say normally

(17:59):
and normal circumstances would be a placewhere you would be able to go without
locking your door without you feel abit safe. Yeah, worry, but
this is also wigital which you know, we're just you know, less than
ten years after really BTK was wasvery active. You had two murders that
occurred, you know, the oneor two years prior to it. I

(18:21):
don't know what the what the stateof things were in which it is all
at the time, if people werestill worried about PTK, if if they
were, you know, locking theirdoors and they're being vigilant, or if
this was a situation where he's kindof started to fade into memory and then
people are starting to feel more comfortablewith Okay, if I don't lock the
door, then it's not a bigdeal. Yeah, So that is a

(18:42):
good question because if it is asituation where the figures went without locking their
front door, then that kind oftakes away the oh, well, how
did the person get in the housewhile the front door is in is always
unlocked, you can just open thedoor walk in. Also, the other
thing is you know, teenagers andkids necessarily thinking about shutting and locking the
door. Mum and dad maybe,but if dad was it was out and

(19:04):
was due coming home, and thegirls are at home by themselves, they
might not necessarily have shut the frontdoor. I mean, there's so many
different scenarios the little girl could haveplayed. It could have been playing in
the front garden and the door wasopen because they were sat outside. I
mean, you just don't know.There's lots of different scenarios that could could
explain why the door was undone orwhy the door was open, and that

(19:26):
somebody could just get in and notnecessarily It might not necessarily be the front
door. It could have been thatthe girls were in the garden in the
hot tub and somebody's come around theback and the back door is open because
they're not going to lock the doorwhile they're out there in the hot tub.
You're going to leave the back dooropen. So it could be that
the girls were actually in the hottub and you know, somebody's come around
the back and that's what's happened.He's come in from that way, and

(19:49):
of course the door would then beopen. There's no need to fall century.
Now, this would have been alsoChristmas break as well, so I
believe it was. Would they bein the hot tub, it might have
been might have been a Wednesday whenthis occurred. So it sounds like from
what I what sounds like if thegirls were probably home alone at the time.
I'm guessing Philip was at work andhe was returning home from work and

(20:11):
when he maybe for lunch when heran into this. Oh no, yeah,
of course, yeah, oh yeah, luncher or after work, you
know. So so yeah, there'sa good chance that you know, the
girls were home. It was duringthe day, girls were home, Maybe
the door was unlocked. I don'tknow. But well, we know that
they were found at like around halfpast one, so we don't know obviously,

(20:32):
like you said, we don't knowwhen they were when they were killed.
So it could have been that theywere killed the evening before when Dad
came home from work and surprised them. It could have been that they were
killed before Dad went to work inthe morning. So we don't actually know
because we don't know what time itwas. I mean, they must have
a rough idea because with Dad especially, I mean maybe not the girls because
they're in hot water, so it'dbe difficult to give them a time of

(20:56):
death. But with Dad having beenshot with a gun, they should roughly
be able to know from his injuriesand from his stage of you know,
of decomposition, how long he's beenhe's been dead for. So they should
be able to at least work outfrom Dad when it was likely that he
was shot at least. Yeah,So that's one of one of the problems

(21:17):
is like, you know, wesaid, I said twenty four hours,
they were actually the timing actually kindof varied depending on when it was asked,
So the timing actually went between twentyfour and forty eight hours, which
is a huge, huge window.It is a huge Yeah, So all
they know, basically, what they'resaying is all we know is it happened

(21:38):
when when Mary was with her ather parents' house, right, so she
was gone for three days. Ithad happened within that window. Yeah,
that's worring, very worrying. Now, very quickly investigators would come across a
person interest. While questioning people closeto the Figures, police would discover that

(22:00):
a thirty three year old man namedWilliam Butterworth had disappeared and was reported as
missing by his wife around the timethat Philip and his two daughters were killed.
Okay, oh, okay. NowButterworth with an independent contractor who had
been hired by the Figures to buildthe newly completed two story solarium, which

(22:21):
included the newly installed hot tub wherethe bodies were found. Okay, so
he was actually building this addition forthe family. He actually put in,
had you know, help put inthe hot tub. Yeah, so he
would have been known to the family. He was still Yeah, he still
had access the house because he wasstill finishing up. He had not completed.
They would lock the door with himworking, said feel safe because you

(22:45):
know he's a workman outside that's beenbrought in to do that work. So
they would quite happily be at homewith the door open so he could come
in and out. Now, whatthe police did not initially know is if
this Butterworth, if he was theperpetrator, the murderer, or if he
was a victim. So they werehe was a person interest. They didn't

(23:06):
know where he was. They didn'tknow if he happened to be another person
that had been killed or had beentaken off site and killed elsewhere. But
they wanted to figure out and findout where he was. They wanted to
find him and and obviously, ifyou're still live, interview him. Okay,
yeah, Now, William Butterworth wasa father of a six months of
six months old twins in a threeyear old. Quinnan's described him as friendly

(23:30):
and devoted to his family. Now, he did own a business called Sunshine
Rooms to Witchital, which specialized inselling ad on sun rooms or homes and
businesses. But according to at leastone person, Butterworth and his business had
been dodged by financial problems. Sohe was having a lot of financial difficulties.

(23:52):
Which is interesting that that, likeI've that that was brought up in
in you know, by friends ornewspapers, because like, how does having
financial difficulties has that become a motivefor murder. You know, I don't
know. Yeah, especially, it'sjust interesting that that was brought up.
Yeah. Yeah, nothing was taken, so it wasn't like he was the
car's gone game. The car's gonecar, So the car has gone.

(24:15):
So whoever it was that killed themhas taken the car. We know they
must have done because the girl thegirls are still at home and dad's at
home. So if the car's gone, then somebody has taken that car,
most likely the perpetrator. Exactly now, in January first, nineteen eighty seven,
so this is the next day afterthe bodies were found, William Butterworth's
van was found in a parking lotof a McDonald's restaurant located at thirteenth in

(24:38):
Woodlawn, which is about seven blocksfrom the Figure home. The key to
the van was found still in theignition always a worry, okay, and
then neighbors would tell police that theysaw a similar van parked at the Figures
home on several occasions the week ofthe murders. Well, of course,
because he was working there. Hewas working there. Now, this here's

(24:59):
something that's strange, right, thisMcDonald's restaurant where the band was found.
Yeah, was also where Kelly hada part time job, right, so
Kelly worked at McDonald's. Yeah,and this is where if I found the
van, obviously, I mean Idon't believe surely if it's a local McDonald's.

(25:19):
M hmm. I think this isimportant because I think, well,
look, look, look, weknow that the their car is gone,
the Figures car is gone missing,right, yeah, and went Butterworth is
missing. But his van is foundat McDonald's. So so if he's a
suspect and he does this, howdoes how does his car get seven blocks

(25:42):
away at McDonald's and then the faircar disappear? Right, So he's not
going to be able to drive twocars at the same time. So obviously
it sounds like he was. Imean, if I was a detective,
my assumption would be he was atMcDonald's and somehow had to get to the
Figures and then left from the Figures. So is it possible that that he

(26:07):
got Kelly? Yeah? Possibly,I don't know how else to explain.
But why wouldn't he just follow herback in the in the van and leave
in his own van? I don'tknow. That seems a bit far fetched
that he would go to McDonald's geta lift back with Kelly particularly, she's

(26:29):
she must have been looking after ayounger sister that day. He's in the
holiday so there's no school, Sowas she at McDonald's. There's no evidence
that. Here's the thing, there'sno evidence that Kelly was even working that
day. That's what I'm saying.Yeah, exactly, but it's just it's
just odd that his van happened toend up at Kelly's workplace. Yes,

(26:49):
it is McDonald's, so and yeah, I mean, is that the only
local McDonald's as well in that area? If it is, then likely anybody
that fancies in McDonald's is going togo to that particular McDonald's. It's not
like there's like three different McDonald's intown and his cavan happens to be parked
at the one that she works at. It just so happens she works at
the local fast food restaurant. SoI'm not sure that that's really significant.

(27:11):
Well, I don't know. Iwould investigate that, but I don't know
if I placed too much emphasis onthat personally. So here's the thing.
So if he if he did itright, at some point, he would
have to get from his van backto the figure figure home, Yeah,

(27:33):
and then leave in the in theVolkswagon even their car. Yeah, So
it could have been. It couldhave been before the murdered, It could
have been after the murders. Butwould would you chance it? Let's say
a hypothetical he was there, hehad his van, he commits the murders,
he gets in the van, drivesMcDonald's. Would he would Would he
take the chance of walking back sevenblocks? No, just to steal a

(27:56):
car? I don't think so,I can't imagine. I can't imagine it.
But then, how long does ittake you there? How long would
it take you to walk seven blocks? Roughly? And obviously you're in a
bit of a hurry, so roughly, how long would it take you to
walk seven blocks? All your blockslike roughly the same size over there,
because obviously we don't need any thing'shere in blocks? So how how long

(28:18):
would it take you roughly to walkseven fifteen minutes? That's not a long
walk, is it. Yeah?So that's an easy quick walk. And
if you're walking quite quickly, becauseobviously you've just murdered people, then it's
going to be quicker than that.You're probably looking at maybe twelve to twelve
you know, ten to twelve minutes, right, that's not seven blocks.

(28:41):
Sounds like such a long way,but actually, when you think about it,
fifteen minutes isn't a very long walkat all. Yeah, I'll guess
fifteen minutes. That's that's my right, fifteen minutes. So we're not talking
like it's a forty five minute walkor an hour's walk. We're talking fifteen
minutes. That's nothing. He's afit guy. He instilled these kind of
things for a living, so it'sgot to be pretty physically fit. So

(29:03):
fifteen minute walk is going to benothing to him, right, No,
No, you're absolutely right. Justlooking here, like looking at at where
this happened. They said it was, would I say, thirteenth in Woodlawn
is where she were? Yeah,that's where the McDonald's was, isn't it
thirteen and Woodlong? Well this actuallysaid roughly ten Well this actually said roughly

(29:27):
like ten minutes. Yeah, sothat's quite fat a quick walk. M
hmm, yeah, interesting, itis. It is. It's weird though,
I don't know, I don't understandthe whole what's what the point of
leaving? No? Not when hisvans Yeah, and not when his van's
usually at the house anyway, soit wouldn't be out of place to see

(29:48):
the van on the drive. Ican understand it if he wasn't usually there,
if he wasn't usually working there,If all of a sudden he was
passing the drive and parked on thedrive and then they were found dead,
then you find that very suspicious.But the fact that he always works there,
neighbors have got used to seeing hisvan there, so they're not going
to find that really out of theordinary to see his van park there.
So but then who knows. Whenyou justmit something like that, you're probably

(30:11):
not thinking straight. Yeah, soI mean you imagine, so like when
I say solarium, I don't know, do you know what a hilarium is?
By yeah, I mean, okay, like a sunroom, So the
sunroom but instead of having like likea solid roof on, it actually has
like a glass. Yeah. Now, apparently this thing is was huge.

(30:33):
It was actually just two story solarium, so it was a big project.
So this isn't This project probably hadtaken quite a while, yeah, to
get installed and get built out.So yeah, so neighbors would have been
completely used to seeing this van,or people workers coming in and out of
the house. So yeah, there, it wouldn't have been strange to see

(30:56):
that van sitting in that in frontof that house, or or in the
driveway, whatever it might have been. So I don't I don't think there
was there was any need if hewas going to commit a crime, a
murder or rape or whatever, thathe would have had to hide the fact
that he was at the house.That's because it would have been expecting,
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Imean I would think at this point it

(31:17):
probably would be more surprising not tosee it than to see it. Yeah,
if he's working constantly on this house, you would expect to see it,
see it there. Yeah. Now. Two days later, on January
third, nineteen eighty seven, WilliamButterworth was arrested while at a payphone in
the parking lot of a Howard Johnsonmotel. Okay, Now, Butterworth had

(31:40):
called home to his wife, anda family member immediately reported to the police
because that's suspicious. He's just goingto so that's suspicious. Also, yeah,
he's calling up right. Yeah.Now. With the help of a
telephone company which Tall, police wereable to trace the phone call to a
payphone located in Stuart, Florida,buff roughly one hundred and eighty miles north

(32:00):
of Miami. I was just aboutto say, Florida is a long way
away from whichitar it is a longway from so which makes him look guilty
straight off now because he's left hisvan with the keys in it and just
disappeared and now he's in Florida.No exactly, and he had to the
police. When they investigated this,they could not find any reason why he

(32:22):
would be in Florida. So he'snot like he had family there, he
had no business businesses there. Hehad no reason to be there. You
know, when they looked into it. You got to fly there, right.
You wouldn't drive to Florida, wouldyou. I mean, you can
take a while. I think mostpeople these days would probably if you're going
to Florida. I don't think onvacation you'd fly. So he would he

(32:43):
would have to. I mean heprobably has driven, I'm guessing unless he's
got a plane, because surely youneed some kind of identification to get on
a plane there. I know youdon't need a passport obviously, because you're
flying sort of internally inside your country. But don't you need like an identity
card to get on a plane.Well, now you do, yeah,
but you didn't might not have doneback then. I don't know about nineteen

(33:05):
eighty seven. I don't know howstrict it was in ninety seven. You
might just have need a ticket toyou know, here's your ticket, get
on. Oh okay, right,okay. So I'm just thinking like,
how, you know, how ishe going to have done this? If
he's gone to Florida, how hashe got that far? You know,
has he hitchhiked, has he driven? Has he got on a plane.
I'm just trying to think of likelyscenarios of him getting that far away.

(33:30):
Right, Well, you'll find outhere shortly, now, officers whatever.
However, officers at the Marin CountyShriff's office were notified via teletype from which
top police saying that a homicide suspectwas on the phone at the Howard Johnson's
motel. Okay, Now, sheriffofficer happened to be directly in front of

(33:51):
the motel when the call went outover the radio. What that's crazy.
He was right there, right rightthere. So he pulled into the motel
park lot and arrested Butterworth, whowas still talking to his wife when he
pulled up. Well, the chanceis but that guy must have been thinking,
this is my day, that sheriffguy. Yeah, the police officer

(34:13):
must have been thinking, wow,wow, that was lucky. So but
what Butterworth. Apparently he didn't putup a fight, but he did appear
shocked. Well, yeah, youwould you have literally just got on the
phone. They found me already.Yeah, so so he was taken into
custody. Now, Sheriff's deputies wouldend up finding the Figures Grade nineteen eighty

(34:38):
three Volkwagon Rabbit nearby. Oh,and the keys of the car were in
William Butterworth's pocket. Now, afterdusting the car, Butterworth's fingerprints would be
found on the steering wheel, soobviously likely he had the car. He
took the car, He drove thecar right, So if his fingerprints are

(35:00):
on the steering wheel, he drovethat car. Busted. Now he would
initially be arrested on charges of stealingthe Figures car and would be held without
bond. Yeah. Now, whilebeing questioned, he told officers that he
had entered the Figures home on theday of the murders, discovered the body

(35:23):
of Philip. He then heard noisesin the house and ran away terrified.
He claimed to have entered some kindof unconscious state, not returning to awareness
until right before he called his wife. So he's stating that he didn't know
how he end up in Florida,and all of a sudden he just came

(35:44):
to in the first thing he didwas call his wife. No, I
don't believe that. It's crazy,right, I get that he might have
entered the house, found Philip apanic to ran, But then you panic,
you run on your phone nine oneone. You don't. You don't
grab the keys to his car,jump into his car and then drive all

(36:06):
the way to Florida, Florida.Exactly, you know, that's exactly.
I would be really interested to knowwhat he was saying to his wife on
that phone call as well. Yeah, right, is he telling his wife
like, I don't know how Iend up here, I don't know what's
going on, and or is hetelling her you know what, I screwed

(36:28):
up. I'm in Florida, Idon't know what to do. I need
help. It'd be interesting to knowwhat he said on that phone. Definitely.
Now while in custody, in Florida. Sedgwick County District Court in Kansas
would charge William Butterworth with three countsof first degree murder as well as fellingy
theft of the fakers Volkswagen rabbit.After being charged, William Butterworth's public defender

(36:52):
would tell the media that his clientmaintained its innocence and that he has no
recollection of any of the any ofthe incidents. Once again, he saying,
I don't know what happened. Imight have killed them, but I
don't know pretty much, is whathe's saying. Well, what about the
semen. Did they test the semenwell in nineteen eighty seven, No,

(37:14):
I know you can't do it forDNA, But did they test the semen
for a blood group because they hadblood grouping back then? The semen did
not match William Butterworth. I wonderif it matched the dad though, because
the mom and the dad could havebeen you know, in the in the
hot time. Yeah, you know, because they are adults. It's their
hot tub, and you know peoplealways get like horny in a hot tub.

(37:37):
So it could be that that couldmatch dad. It could match the
daughter's boyfriend. So I'd be veryinterested to see who they actually tested for
that I don't know if you getI don't know if they could get blood
group. I wonder if they couldget blood group. I'm sure they could.
I'm sure they could get blood groupin so you know what blood type
it was, but you wouldn't knowanything much more than that. I think

(37:58):
in the eighties, definitely get bloodgroup in the other interesting fact is that
apparently there were no fingerprints anywhere onthe hot tub that matched Way and Butterworth
fingerprints. Okay, but then sothat doesn't mean anything, Well it shouldn't,
but might be work in the house, is it? Well, why

(38:21):
would you touch the hot tub?You know, why would you touch the
hot tub if you work a house. He's installing it for the family.
Yeah, obviously if he installed it, but he might not have done.
And if he did, he mighthave been wearing gloves. Those it said
bloody heavy hot tubs. They're soheavy, so I mean, he you
know it could be. And alsoaren't they full of chlorine anyway? So
wouldn't that that would that would alsoyou know, wash away things like that,

(38:44):
because I think chlorine's not good forfingerprints, is it? Because of
the oils. No, it wouldnot, so that's interesting. Now.
Over the span of four months afterhis rest, William Butterworth's defense attorney arranged
for him to undergo twenty sessions witha clinical psychologist named doctor Robert pace Now.

(39:05):
Ten of these sessions would be completedunder hypnosis in an effort to extract
a more comprehensive account of the events. Okay, now, under the influence
of hypnosis, Butterworth recounted a narrativesimilar to his initial one, albeit with
greater detail. Now during hypnosis,he stated that he had been constructing the
sun room for the figure family andhad paused to take a lunch break.

(39:29):
When he returned, Kelly and aman that he believed to be her boyfriend
were using the hot tub. Thoughhe could not see them directly, he
was there maybe Yeah. While hecould not see them directly, he did
see movement behind condensation on the glass. Yeah. He decided to leave again.

(39:50):
In return, Once they left thehot tub, after purchasing some shirts,
William Butterworth met with a retired policecaptain by the name of William Dotts,
who did confirm their meeting and it'stiming. That's also noted that Butterworth
appeared neither disturbed nor anxious at thetime. Now. William Butterworth then returns

(40:12):
the house at approximately four thirty pm, where he found all the lights off
in the home. When he enteredthe solarium, he found Sherry face down
in the hot tub. He thensaw Philip dead in the hallway and picked
up Phillip's car keys, to whichhad fallen on the floor. So did
he walk? He was is hisvan? At what point? Did he

(40:34):
drop his van off at McDonald's.How did he get back to the house?
Did he walk back to the housefrom McDonald's. Why would you do
that? Does it? Did notcome up? Don't know? Fail idea?
No, that doesn't fit. Iget it. I mean the rest
of it. I understand how thatcould happen. I completely agree that it's
very possible. But this whole carbusiness doesn't make sense. Yeah, it

(40:55):
doesn't at all. He then saidhe heard a noise pot possibly like a
soft scream, which led him tothe basement of the selarium. There he
realized that the murderer was still thereand fry and he ran and actually used
the fager's key to try to startthis. Here you go, so he
says he accidentally tried to use thefager's key to start his van. Okay,

(41:17):
So now he's fans at the property, Okay, okay. So when
he realized he didn't he had thewrong keys, he said, he grabbed
the stuff from his van and tookoff in the fair car. The next
thing he remembered was hearing a newsreport about the murders before calling his wife
from Florida. So then the murderertook his van and parked it at McDonald's.

(41:40):
Yes, and left the keys inthe admission. Okay, that okay,
maybe that is Maybe that is thecase. That sounds quite bad if
you've stolen a van and just leaveit and leave the keys in it.
If he's left the keys in hisignition when he's got to the faga's house
anyway, and then he could youknow, he's got the wrong keys to
start, then his keys aren't inthe ignition of his van. So this

(42:00):
murderer then has got to find hisvan keys. He's already said, yeah,
he's already said that he used thewrong keys. He used the fagas
keys to try and start his vanand then realized jumped in the van and
left, fair enough, I getthat, jumped in the car and left.
Sorry, But then where does themurderer get the keys for the van
from? Here's the thing. Soif he's saying that he used the figures

(42:24):
keys on his van, that tome tells me that he's reaching into his
pocket to pull out keys and putit in the indition, right, yeah,
which means that he didn't leave hiskeys in the game behind Yeah,
yeah, behind, that's right,right, So that how does his keys
end up in the murderer's hands?Yeah? Has the murder and then the

(42:45):
murders taking his van, and howdoes he get the Fagas keys? Why
has he got the fagus car keys? I can understand him having keys for
the property to let himself in andout, but why would he have the
keys to the car, So he'sgoing to have had to run back in
and grab keys. Well, no, he he said that when he found
Philip on the ground or on theground, so then he's gonna go and

(43:07):
just grab them. Why would ifyou found he's the next one, why
would you pick him up? There'sno no purpose picking up the car keys
and you've just pulled in in yourcar and your van, So therefore you
should have the van keys on you. You didn't leave him in the ignition
because when you went back there,you put the wrong keys in the ignition.
So that doesn't make sense. Thatdoesn't make sense at all. It

(43:28):
doesn't. It doesn't now. WilliamButterworth claimed that he did feel shame for
running and believed that he may havebeen able to save Kelly if he had
not, well, yeah, getout of here. Well possibly he could
hear him moaning, so yeah ifhe if if that was the case and
he got there, I mean,what do you do? You drive a
few streets away and you call nineone one. You don't you don't like

(43:51):
go to Florida? I mean,why don't you just drive? For you?
What Mary does his house? Yeah? You do? What Mary does?
You run across the street and youask you tell a neighbor like we
need help, We'll call nine oneone. Yeah, anything? Well,
I mean, if you're that frightenedand you don't want to you don't want
someone to catch you, like thekiller to find you. If you're running

(44:12):
around the neighborhood, you drive home. The killer doesn't know where you live.
You just drive home and use yourhome phone to phone police and tell
your wife, oh my god,exactly. So this doesn't make sense.
I don't, I don't. Itdoesn't make sense. Now, the psychologists
would make extensive notes of each session, but none of the sessions were tape

(44:34):
recorded or videotaped. Really, yeah, twenty sessions, they were all He
took notes on all twenty sessions.None of them were recorded in any way.
Was its standard practice back then torecord things? I think it was
with the cassette players, so obviouslywouldn't have you I'm sure. Well,

(44:57):
when you think about the Man Manhunter, they had a cassette player. We
had cassette players because we used touse them for computer so you had there
were cassett players in the eighties.So you're telling me that therapists didn't use
that as a way. They usedto dictate into the little you know,
remember the U say you have alittle tape inside the machine, a miniature
tape, and then used to putthat inside a big tape and then put

(45:21):
that into your things so you couldplay it. Because I remember when I
used to dictate things. My bosshad a really old dictation set and that's
how I used to do it.It was here we used to dictate with
this tiny little cassette and then he'dcome back to the office. I would
then put the tiny cassette into mybig cassette that would go into the player,
and then I would type up everythingthat he'd dictated. So they did

(45:45):
have They definitely did have tapes backthen. So I find that very strange
that none of it was dictated.That one or two sessions I get,
but not the whole lot. That'sweird. Yeah, why wouldn't you do
any of them? I mean,yeah, that's okay. So at some
point, you know, if you'rethe defense attorney, and you know you're

(46:07):
your client's saying in the good case, why don't you be like, hey,
can you please record this so thatwe can put you know, put
this on record. You're taking achance, You're taking a big chance.
Yeah, with not having any sortof recorded record of this, I would
be asking for that if that wasmy client, I would be asking for

(46:27):
it to be documented. Mm hmm. Wow. No. Absolutely. Now,
after being extra writed back to Kansasfrom Florida, William Butterworth would be
placed on trial. The trial wouldbegin on May ninth, nineteen eighty eight,
which is crazy because this is we'retalking what just over four months later.

(46:47):
This is a quick trial, veryI mean, how many times you
don't hear it? You know thingslike this where it's like murder happens basically
you know, end of December andthen you know four months later, five
months later to the trial. Sothis was really really fast. The jury
was consisted of seven women and fivemen, along with two alternates, and

(47:13):
it would last for fourteen days.Now. The defense team indicated that they
wished to present Michael or I thinkMichael where his name is Michael Barrymore.
Barrymore did it again? The defenseteam indicated that they wished to present William
Butterworth's testimony based in part on hispost hypnotic recall. But this obviously led

(47:40):
to many objections by the prosecutors.Right, so they're trying to say,
well, we want him to testify, but we want him to be able
to use what he can recall afterbeing you know, questioned under hypnosis.
So not his actual I don't wantto say not his actual recall, but

(48:02):
it so it's I don't know howI feel about this. I understand why
they want the White defense team wouldwant want to have this post hypnotic recall.
That's why. Yeah, so thisactually did go to it admissibility hearing,
where both the the state and thedefense team put forth their their you

(48:30):
know why it should or should notbe allowed. The judge ultimately decided that
he was going to allow William Butterworthto provide testimony using this post hypnotic recall.
Right, so he they decided,yeah, it is viable. He
can. He can get on thestand and he can tell his story in

(48:50):
part with what he recalled from hishypnosis sessions. Yeah. Yeah. Now,
the state's case focused on witnesses whohad seen Butterworth's van at the Figure
home on the day of the killings, as well as the fact that Butterworth
drove to Florida in the Figures car. Prosecutors hit on inconsistencies inet Butterworth's account

(49:12):
and pointed to items missing when hewas arrested in Florida, which included his
watch, wallet, wedding ring,and parking stickers from the Figure vehicle as
evidence of an attempt to cover upthe crimes. After the state presented its
case, the defense team put WilliamButterworth on stand to testify on his own
behalf he would recall the events ofthe day as he recalled under hypnosis.

(49:35):
Now. Doctor Pace would then takethe stand to testify about Butterworth's recollection under
hypnosis, in which he stated thathe believed that no outside factors influenced Butterworth's
hypnotic memory. Ah, this iscrazy, It is very crazy. Now.
On May twenty third, nineteen eightyeight, the case would be handed

(49:57):
over to the jury. The followingday, after five hours of deliberation,
the jury would return to the courtroomwith a decision. The jury would find
William Butterworth not guilty a first degreemurder in grand theft otto. Well,
No, he is guilty of grandtheft auto because he took the car,

(50:17):
So one hundred percent he's guilty ofgrand thought a grand theft auto. Now,
can you say one hundred percent withoutany doubt whatsoever that he's guilty of
murder? No, because is helikely to have done it? Yes?
Why, I don't know, butI reckon it's probably got something to do

(50:37):
with the daughter. It's probably gotsomething to have Kelly. But I you
can't say that one hundred percent.There is no like smoking gun here that
gives you the I mean he actedpretty shady if he hasn't done it,
you mean, it doesn't make anysense his actions. But did Can you
do him for triple murder? No, because there isn't enough evidence for that's

(51:00):
the mud weapon? Where's the gun? Where's his you know, I don't
know, mm hmm. Now,after the trial was concluded, it was
learned that when the jury took itsinitial vote on the twenty third, Yeah,
that vote came back with seven votesto acquit, three undersided votes,
and two votes two convicts. Solike almost immediately, I mean most people

(51:22):
were like, oh, yeah,you know, not guilty from the get
go. Yeah. The jury foremanwould state that the circumstantial evidence for him
being not guilty, Yeah, outweighedthe circumstantial evidence for him being guilty.
Yeah. The foreman would would latergo on to say that he believed that

(51:46):
the profgears responsibility to prove beyond areasonable doubt with evidence and witnesses was not
there. Well, I do agree, I do agree with it. You
realistically, what evidence have they gotthat he did it? Other than the
fact that he took the car.They haven't really got any evidence that he

(52:08):
committed those murders. We know thathe was in the house regularly, so
his fingerprints are going to be inthe house on quite a lot of stuff
because he's there, you know.So there isn't actually they didn't find any
blood on him. They haven't foundI mean, when somebody does something,
they're very traumatic. The brain isa very clever thing. Even though he

(52:28):
was hypnotized, you kind of thinkthat hypnotizing somebody's going to get you them
to tell you the whole truth.But that's not the case. There have
been cases where people that have murderedpeople have been hypnotized and still haven't They
still haven't confessed to what they've done. So I don't trust the hypnosis side
of things, to be honest,I don't trust that is there is there,

(52:51):
you know, evidence to convict him, one hundred percent, absolutely not.
So although all this is circumstantial evidencethat points towards him, there isn't
actually anything concrete. And you've gotto think about this. If this was
your family member, if he wasyour son, or your brother or your
husband, how would you look atthis? You would argue it that,
yes, it looks dodgy what he'sdone, Yes his behavior is a bit

(53:14):
shady, but have the prosecution provedone hundred percent that he did it.
No, they haven't. No.I think this is a case where the
prosecution, the state moved too fast. Fast, they got to child too
quick. Yeah, I understand you. You know, you do have a

(53:35):
A person has a right to ato a speed trial. Yeah. Yeah,
so it is it was Burdleworth,you know that was Yeah, maybe
that was trial. Yeah, thatwas his way of doing it. Maybe
because they have evidence. Here's thething, if we see there's a lot
of time. How many times havewe have we talked about cases where someone

(53:57):
has been brought in for questioning andthen relieve without charge, Right, it
happens all the time. Yeah,So what happens? I mean, if
you don't have the evidence and youcan't you don't have the evidence to charge,
Yeah, then you continue to investigate, you find more mm hmm.

(54:17):
I mean, is is there goingto be Is there a smoking gun out
there that that they missed? Possibly, we don't know. But here's the
thing. I mean, even ifthey're the smoking gun which proves that Butterworth
is guilty, there's nothing you cando about it. You can't you can't
recharge him. He's too late.So I guess. I mean, there's

(54:37):
really here's the thing, so Ithink there's there's a few few things,
right, so we can look ata did Butterworth do it? I think
that he is the most likely suspect, based on his proximity, based on
his actions after the fact. SoI would say that's probably the most likely.

(55:02):
But is it possible that Butterworth hadsomeone else with him? Was there
someone else that was working with Butterworththat could have yeah, that he distubbed?
Yeah, and you know, maybehe maybe this whole I don't know

(55:22):
what happened. I don't remember whathappened him being conscious of it. Yeah,
what if that? What if thatreally happened? What if he he
did you know, he does nothave a conscious recollection of what actually occurred.
And he's telling the truth and itwas actually someone else that did it,

(55:42):
There's always going to be the questionon did Dennis Raider do it?
I mean, even though he saidno, I didn't, we know for
a fact that he sent that letter. So when he was arrested and what
was it two thousand and five,police found a copy of the letter that
was sent to Mary Faker, Sowe know for a fact that BTK.
Dennis Raider did write and send thisletter off to Mary, So I don't

(56:07):
know it's I don't think it wasa BTK thing. I don't think that
was the case. I think Idon't think either. I think strange.
I think it's strange that he behavedthe way he did. Is it beyond
the realms of possibility? No,it isn't. I mean, if he

(56:28):
had nothing to hide, why wouldhe go so far for so long.
I don't understand that unless he knewthe person that was in there and he's
frightened for his life. Is thatthe possibility? I don't know. Strange
one. I'd be curious to seewhat they did in investigating Butterworth van.
Right, did they did they lookfor fingerprints? Did they you know,

(56:52):
did they do any sort of testingin it? Was any blood found in
it? Because could we know oneof the gunshots wounds was point blank point
blank? Yes that Yeah, there'sgoing to be blood evidence, It's going
to be blood splatter, right,So was there any blood evidence in the
van? If there's not, howdo you explain that away? Yeah,

(57:17):
it's it's it's a frustrating case becauseI think with more, with more,
investigation, This could have been solved. I think I think that they've gone
too quick and put everything on himstraight away, and they haven't gathered enough
evidence to put him away for this. And if it wasn't him, they

(57:37):
haven't done enough. Although they've donetheir job in that they've he's been acquitted
if it wasn't him, but thenthey've got nobody else, So they're kind
of dead in the water now becausenow their main suspect and only suspect,
has been let go on this,So now they've got nothing. I think.
You know, I'm not I'm notan investigator. I'm not a police
officer. I could I can onlygo by what I'm looking at, looking

(58:00):
at this case and sort of myown personal opinion, And I think maybe
that it was just the speedy trialwas a bit too quick. Perhaps I
think so too. I think sotoo. It's absolutely unfortunate, very frustrating.

(58:20):
I reckon did he go back tohis wife afterwards after the trial and
everything? Yeah, I believe,well, I believe so. I don't
have any any specific information. Ido know that his wife and family supported
him to the whole trial. Wow, so they didn't believe that he was

(58:44):
involved so you's that's very that's veryinteresting that his wife stuck by him when
faced with all of those uncertainties,like the fact that he literally had no
recollection of anything and ended up inFlorida. I would be listening to what

(59:04):
he's saying, going doesn't make sense. There's been something niggling in my mind,
going, this just doesn't make sense. Something's not right with this case.
I think there's gonna there's one piece. There's one puzzle piece missing,
and I think that one puzzle piecewould then blow this open and you'd get
all the answers that you need.It seems to me that there's just some

(59:27):
there's just one bit that's missing outof this story, and I think with
that one piece it would be itwould be solved. I think it's as
simple as that. I think thiscase could have been solved. I think
so too. And now, Imean the technology we've got now test that
semen test, the blood test,the blood test, you know, find

(59:50):
out. But I doubt they were. They weren't forensically aware in nineteen eighty,
so I doubt they would have.Well, they weren't. No,
that's not fair, because they wereforensically aware. They were, but they
not to the obviously, not tothe extent that we are now. But
they did keep evidence. They didkeep clothing. They knew that they were
seeming in the hot tub. Theywould have kept stuff like that because they

(01:00:13):
tested the blood grouping on it,So they are forensically aware enough. It's
just did they keep that evidence?Has their evidence been kept or was it
lost enough blood? That's a goodquestion. I don't Yeah, I don't
know. I'd like to see Iwould like to see a twenty twenty three

(01:00:34):
detective team look over this case.I'd like to see them re examine all
of the evidence. Because not thatthere's anything wrong with the offices in nineteen
in the nineteen eighties, but we'reso much much more advanced now that I
think going back with our eyes now, knowing what we know about things and
procedures and even even just down tothe tools that they use that Scene of

(01:00:59):
Crime's office so uses at a crimescene, I honestly think that we could
go back and we could look atthis and we could do we could we
could, we could do more.I really think we could. Yeah,
it all depends on what evidence wasgathered, right, Is there is there
evidence still out there that you coulddo more testing on is can you do?

(01:01:22):
Can you look for DNA on thefabric cover of the hot tub?
Is there? Can you find DNAon like the electrical tape? Electrical tape?
Even CCTV? There was CCTV inthe nineteen eighties, right, albeit
it wasn't as clear as we've gotnow, but there was CCTV. So

(01:01:43):
how much did they look? Didthey look for CCTV? What about the
McDonald's. What about the area that? Was there any roads CCC If they
had CCTV at on that McDonald's parkinglot, they should be able to see
who got in and out of thatcar or the band? Who who left
it there? You know? Sowas it Butterworth? Was it Butterworth?

(01:02:05):
And accomplice? Was it an accomplished? What was it? It's interesting,
It's awful. I feel sorry.I feel sorry for I feel sorry for
is it Mary? Did you sayit was married? The mom? I
feel so sorry for it. Ifeel so bad for coming home and finding
that must be horrific. No,your whole family, you know, gone

(01:02:25):
all at the same time, you'vegot just yourself. It's just it's just
awful. That was a really reallyinteresting case. I've never heard of this
one before, so thank you.It was really interesting. No, it
isn't frustrating, very frustrating. Itmakes you want to just grab a team
of people and go and do somesome like looking into this one. I

(01:02:45):
do think it could be so much, I really do. I still can't
believe that, you know, bodiesfound of December thirty first, nineteen eighty
seven. Yeah, trial may maybeeighty eight. Unbelievable. How for Yeah,
that's very quick. I mean justthink of like not even six months
later, it's fast. Yeah,I mean think of like the Idaho murders,

(01:03:09):
right, happened a year, youknow, a year ago, still
nowhere near trial. Think of Belphimurders, right, yeah, so Allen
was which Allen was arrested? Howlong ago? I mean it seems like
it's been forever now, two years. Yeah, it does seem I've done
crazy, Right, that's nowhere neargoing to trial. That's going to be

(01:03:34):
it's not even going to be likethey were saying January time. But I've
heard from different people saying that thatcase they reckon, it's going to be
the end of the summer, nowherenear January it's not going to be it's
not going to be anywhere near.So to take a triple murder to trial
within six five months, yeah,it's absolutely unheard of. Now for him
too, not just not just forthe victims. If he is innocent,

(01:03:55):
I mean, everybody is entitled toa fair trial. You've got to do
things fairly, whether or not thatperson you hate them. It has to
be fair because you have to getit right because if you're wrong and this
guy goes to prison for a triplemurder for the rest of his life,
it's a huge injustice, you know. So you have to get things right

(01:04:17):
and everything has to be done fairly. It's the same as Richard Allen that
all has to be done fairly.As much as we all want to get
things in the papers and we wantto read about it now, it's not
fair to do that. It's notgiven the guy a fair trial whether or
not he is the murderer, becausewe don't know. He's presumed innocent until
he's found guilty. So yeah,and he would found he would found not

(01:04:38):
guilty, he had found innocent,so he's an innocent man. But here's
the thing. Because of how thetrial, how the trial afforded, he's
never going to be looked at asa innocent man regardless of what the jury
said, because the jury even cameout like, well, this circumstance or
evidence wasn't enough to it wasn't youknow, yeah, wasn't more, it

(01:04:58):
wasn't enough to prove this other circumsacial evidence. What they're saying was like,
there's really no evidence on either eitherside that says he's guilty, you
know, guilty or innocent? Yeah, or innocent. That's definitely guilt festal
though, Oh he did take thecar, so he did take the car
without permission regardless, So he shouldhave been done for that at least.
I don't want to say that's thecraziest part of this, this whole thing,

(01:05:20):
but it's crazy that they were like, oh, not guilty of grand
theft auto. But in the grandscheme things doesn't really matter. No,
I mean, he took a carbecause he was in a panic. I
mean, does it doesn't matter?Well, I they would have found him
gilty. They if they could theyfound him guilty, it would have done
him for grand theft or would they? Yeah, he would have got max
grand theft auto. So I don'tknow what it was in nineteen o seven,

(01:05:43):
but if it was like you know, max twenty five year sentence,
I'm g I guarantee you he wouldhave been sentenced to the max. Yeah,
definitely. So was that a wayfor the for the jury to say,
well, I don't think he's guiltyof the murder. We don't want
him to to get overly punished becauseof a car theft, say not guilty
and the car theft. I don'tknow, I don't know. Crazy.

(01:06:04):
That's a crazy case. Frustrating againlike usual, yep, every week,
Well thank you for that. Wehave something that we do at the end
of every episode which we try andgive you something to smile about after Obviously
quite a lot of our cases arequite dark and quite horrific. This one
just as bad. But we aregoing to do something we like to call

(01:06:27):
dumb criminal. Hey, dumb dumbhere use a real jackass. Okay,
So this week, Morgan, Idon't know if I've done this one before
because I've read so many of them, so I'm hoping you haven't already heard
this one. This one was.It was very funny. Two aspiring criminals
attempted to open an ATM machine witha blowtorch, which I don't know if

(01:06:48):
I think that's a good idea inthe first place. To be honest,
I wouldn't have thought blow torch isthe ideal kind of You know, if
somebody sees you with a blow torch, you're gonna look suspicious. They then
successfully melted through the heavy metal framethat surrounded the cash machine. Okay,
they were inches away from getting inside. They got through right the way,

(01:07:11):
through the metal, through the plasticthat was there. They reached the pile
of notes that was inside the cashmachine, but mistakenly set fire to the
entire pile of money. So allthat time they had spent with the blowtorch
melting their way through the cash machineto get in, only to finally get

(01:07:31):
in and then set fire to allthe money. And they got away with
nothing, no no dollars whatsoever.All they got. All they got was
a criminal record because they got caughtquite clearly, because you don't usually use
an ATM, you don't usually usea blowtorch take your money out of the
atm. What a terrible Oceans eleven. I wonder if they were drunk,

(01:07:56):
Like were they drunk? Because howis any of that a good idea.
I don't know. You know,you've got to be fire plus you know,
money paper, but even you wouldyou think of using a blow torch

(01:08:17):
on a cash machine? Like no, even if this was England, you
would end up with like just apile of like plastic melted plastic. Yes,
yeah, but someone's going to seeyou blow torch in an ATM machine
surely. Yeah. Well, Idon't know. Maybe you can put on

(01:08:39):
like one of those like workerd festsand a hard hab like just just doing
some work, just cleaning it up, you know, just cleaning up the
cash machine. But yeah, sothat is this week's dumb criminal. If
you want to suggest it's a dumbcriminal, please do. We love We
love reading your dumb criminals. Andnow, to be honest, we are
looking through lists going have we donethis one before? Or have we just

(01:09:00):
read this one before? So withoutgoing through all of our how many hundreds
of episodes that we've done and recheckin by all means, send us over
your dumb criminals. We would loveto read them. You can send them
over via Instagram, or you cansend them over via email if you want
to. Email addresses are so easy. Just Cherry at crimepedia podcast dot com
or Morgan at crimepedia podcast dot com. Nice and easy, just like that,

(01:09:24):
Or you could join our Patreon anddo us on You're forever the salesman.
You should sell cars for a living, I swear. Oh no,
no, Well that's it for usthis week. We'll be back next week
with another new episode for you.Be my episode next week, and for
now, be nice and buy