The Assassination of Tom Wales

In October 2001, an assistant United States attorney sat in his basement floor office working late into the night. Without warning, gunshots would ring out from the backyard, breaking the window facing his desk and hitting the man. They would be fatal. More than 20 years later, people are still asking who killed the man and why.

Summary
In this episode of Crimepedia, Morgan and Cherry discuss the upcoming CrimeCon UK event and congratulate a friend on being shortlisted for an award. They then delve into the case of Tom Wales, an assistant United States attorney who was assassinated in his home. The FBI's handling of the investigation is examined, and the lack of physical evidence leads investigators to focus on motive. The episode ends with the exploration of Tom's personal and social life to determine a possible motive for his murder. Tom Wales' murder investigation explores various potential motives, including an altercation at a parking garage, his involvement with Washington Ceasefire, and his work as an assistant United States attorney. The investigation also focuses on the helicopter case that Tom had been working on, as well as the legal action and motives of James Anderson. The FBI identifies a suspicious man in the neighborhood and discovers unusual markings on the bullets used in the murder, leading to the search for a replacement gun barrel. These chapters provide a comprehensive overview of the principal themes in the conversation. This episode concludes the discussion on the unsolved murder of Tom Wales. The conversation delves into the credibility of witness recollections and the discovery of an anonymous letter claiming responsibility for the murder. The FBI's theory of a conspiracy and hired gunmen is explored, along with the ongoing investigation and increased reward for information. The hosts express their fascination with the case and share a story about a dumb criminal.



Takeaways

• The accuracy of witness recollections can be questioned, especially when details are remembered years after the event.
• An anonymous letter claiming responsibility for a crime can provide valuable information, but its credibility must be carefully evaluated.
• The FBI's theory of a conspiracy and hired gunmen suggests a complex network of individuals involved in the murder.
• The investigation into Tom Wales' murder is ongoing, with the FBI determined to solve the case and bring justice to the victim's family.

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Episode Transcript

(00:38):
Welcome to crime Pedia. I amyour host this week. My name is
Morgan. I hope you are havinga wonderful day. And with me as
always is my true crime BFF.She is my better half. It is
the very lovely Cherry. Hello Cherry, how are you? I am very
well, thank you. A bitof a sore throat so I sound more
manly than you this week. It'sgood, it's been it's been two weeks

(01:02):
now, and I know that youjust had your first real shift their jobs,
so we've got to make sure wekeep that throat in good working condition.
Yeah, that's all right, Yeah, it's all good. We're all
good. So I'm looking forward togetting back to normality and getting back to
what we do best, slowly butsurely, slowly but surely. Yeah.

(01:25):
Yeah. So besides that, howthing has been going for you? Yeah?
Really good? All good? Thankyou? This week. This year
is just flying by already. Ican't believe we're in March already. Hopefully
the spring is coming down, thesunshine's come in. I've found lots and
lots of new cases recently. Somepeople have emailed to me, but others
I've just there just seems to haveall of a sudden been like this influx

(01:48):
of cold cases that are looking forsome help. So I've got quite a
few to look through, which isquite exciting. But they just seem to
have come out of nowhere, soa bit weird. But yeah, quite
a few. So we've got somestuff to keep us busy for the next
few months. Yeah. I don'tthink we have much in a way of
news this week. No, Idon't think there is. Really We're preparing

(02:10):
for normal things like Crime Con UKthat's coming to London in September. We've
got a whole new venue. It'sgoing to be a bit different to what
we've had before. It's not ina hotel this year, so we've got
a crand new venue which is awesome. It's gorgeous. There's also a big
change, it's a big shift tothe lineup this year. There's a lot

(02:30):
more content creators, a lot moreYouTube crime because there's a lot of crime
presenters on YouTube. There is alot more YouTube, there's a lot more
there's a lot of new speakers,there's a lot of new cases that people
are talking about, a lot moreprocedural stuff this year, so it's going
to be very different to any othercrime con that you've been to. A
lot of people I've heard we weretalking earlier on when we were doing crime

(02:52):
for the extra that flights between Englandand the US are a lot cheaper to
fly from the US sometimes to Englandthan it is to fly into state in
America. And so a few peoplethat I've spoken to over the last couple
of weeks have said, we're justgoing to fly to England. We're going
to come to the UK Crime Conand see what it's all about because it's
cheaper than flying into State and doingother stuff there. So quite a few

(03:15):
people are actually coming over. We'vegot quite a lot of American podcasters,
content creators, speakers coming over forthe English Crime Con as well. So
I think it's going to be reallyexciting this year. I think this is
going to be a crime con likenever before. Yeah, it's really exciting.
Yeah, there's a good stuff goingon. We do have a congratulations

(03:39):
to give Cherry. Okay to givea big, huge congratulations to our friend
Casey in the Cult Vault podcast whohas been listed for Episodic Excellence at the
Show Truth Kern Awards. I'm soproud of her. If you don't know

(04:00):
Casey, and you don't know Case'spodcast, The Cult Volt is absolutely brilliant,
and I know how much work goesinto her podcast. It is factually
like fascinating. It is just she'sabsolutely brilliant and she thoroughly deserves it.
And I hope she wins. Ireally really hope she wins that category because
she she does deserve that win.So congratulations, and we hope, we

(04:24):
hope you take home all the awardsthis year, all the trophies. I
wanted to win, all of it, taking more, all of them,
taking more home for publishing, takeit, take it. Yeah, Best
TV Series, Colt, just takeit the whole ticket, good for you?
Or on screen Best True Crime DramaAdaptation Cultville. Ye, let's take

(04:51):
the letter, just wipe the floor. Let me take the lot. She'll
be the best dressed person there.She'll be the nicest person there. She's
lovely. She's can't speak highly enoughof Casey. If you haven't heard her
podcast, go and listen to it. It's brilliant. Then you'll be hooked.
I can't wait to see her again. No, I can't wait to
see her too. It's going tobe lovely. It'd be really nice.

(05:12):
So yeah, other than that,we're not. We didn't enter any awards
this year because we've both been sobusy away from the podcast that we just
haven't had time to do that kindof stuff this year. So maybe next
year we might dip our tone andsee whether or not we can get something.
But I'm not worried. I'm quitehappy to let the professionals do that
kind of stuff. We're not professionalat all. Oh, absolutely not absolutely

(05:34):
talking of professional stuff. Though.Is your week this week? So you
have the case for us this week? What are we looking at? We
are looking at a very interesting andpast week complex case. An assassination,

(05:55):
okay, so interesting. In theassassination of Time Wales in October two thousand
and one, an assistant United StatesAttorney sat in his basement floor office working
late into the night. Without warning, gunshots would ring out from the backyard,

(06:21):
breaking the window facing his desk andhitting the man. They would be
fatal. More than twenty years later, people are still asking who killed the
man and why this is Crimepedia andthis is the assassination of Tom Wales,

(06:49):
all right. Cherry Tom Wales wasa forty nine year old man who was
an Assistant United States Attorney in Seattle. Now he had a habit of often
working late into the night. Hisfrequent mantra to family and friends, I'm
here at my post serving my sovereignserved as both a just and a genuine
expression. It reflected his methodical nature, often characterized by deliberate, measured actions.

(07:13):
Wales held a Wales held an idealisticdedication to his profession, finding fulfillment
and utilizing the resources of the federalgovernment to confront criminals, particularly those of
privileged status who abused their power.On the evening of October eleventh, two
thousand and one, Tom Wales foundhimself unexpectedly at home, contrary to his

(07:34):
original plans. Now Originally, hehad intended to dine and spend time with
his girlfriend, Marlus du Jong,a court reporter who lived in downtown Seattle.
However, earlier in the day,Wales informed of pending projects requiring his
attention at home. After leaving hisoffice near the Federal Courthouse that evening,

(07:56):
he returned to his home in thequiet neighborhood of Queen Anne. After returning
home around seven pm, Tom attendedto his twenty year old cat, Sam,
administering her nightly arthritis medication. Twentyyear old cat. Twenty cats live
that long. That is an oldcat. It's like half my life.

(08:20):
That is an old cat. AndI wonder it's got arthritis. Surprised it's
still move in. That's pretty cool. That is an old cat. Sam.
Are you're joking? No, Samwas saving up her nine lives.
Yeah, definitely not mess around,like I am not taking chances. No,

(08:41):
twenty year old cat, I've neverheard of that. That's brilliant.
Twenty year old. That's crazy.That's lovely. Yeah, that's lovely.
Now. He then prepared to installdrywall and a stairwell on the second floor.
By around ten o'clock. With aglass of wine in his hand,
he walked down to the basement officehe shared with his ex wife, Elizabeth,

(09:01):
who divorced in two thousand. Sothey've been divorced for release a year
now now. Despite their separation,the two would remain amicable. As per
the divorce agreement, Tom retained ownershipof the home while Elizabeth utilized the basement
space for her business during daytime hours. Now, in the evenings, Tom

(09:24):
would use a computer in the basementoffice, usually to send emails to his
children in Marlus d Jong. Thatnight, he also planned to draft a
fundraising letter for Washington Ceasefire, thestate's leading gun control advocacy group of which
he served as president. At tentwenty four pm, Wales wrote an email
to Jujong from his computer situated ona desk facing a window. Approximately fifteen

(09:50):
minutes later, someone fired three tofour shots at him from the backyard,
penetrating the window. Oh No theale word. An elderly neighbor living nearby,
heard the gunshots and promptly dialed nineto one one. Fortunately, an
off duty officer was in the vicinityand swiftly responded to the call. Upon

(10:11):
arrival, Whales seemed conscious but unableto speak. Paramedics would swiftly transport him
via ambulance to the trauma center atthe Harbor View Medical Center in Seattle for
urgent medical attention. Tom would immediatelybe taken into surgery. Friends and colleagues
would gather at the hospital awaiting wordon his condition. Just before before dawn

(10:33):
the next day, a surgeon emergedfrom the operating room to say that Tom
Wales had died. As Tom Waleswas a federal employee considered to have been
killed in the line of duty.The FBI took charge of the investigation into
his murder, assigning it the codename SEPROM short for Seattle Prosecutor Murder.

(10:54):
Ooh, I like it now.Despite this, there have been several criticisms
surrounding the handling of the case bythe FBI. Many in Seattle believe that
the bureau did not exhaust all avenuesin their investigation. Okay, but who
are these people? Like, whoare these people? They don't know what
the FBI do realistically? How muchhow much are you privy to what the

(11:18):
FBI do and know, like youprobably know twenty percent of what they do.
So it always makes me laugh whenthey say this, Oh, they
didn't exhaust all their possibilities. Youhave no idea, you have no idea
how an investigation works, and you'vegot no idea what those people are doing.
They're like one of the most right, you know, like one of

(11:39):
the biggest agencies in the whole ofthe United States. It's ridiculous to say
that there are two people just lovethey just love it and they just love
a reason to like fight about stufflike this. There are really two things
that that they would point to whichwhich made them think, oh, they're
not doing everything they can. Firstis, despite setting a reward for tips

(12:03):
leading to the prosecution in the case, it was set at twenty five thousand
dollars, which was deemed insufficient bymany in the local community. Ok So
they're like, okay, that's notenough, all right. In addition,
the FBI did not provide additional assistancefrom Washington, d C. Now,

(12:24):
this lack of additional resources from FBIheadquarters, which is common in major cases
that they prioritize, was noted byobservers and raised questions about the depths of
their commitment to solving the case.That's that's okay, I understand that,
But there's one big issue and onething that that I I have to point

(12:46):
out. Tom Wales was murdered onOctober eleventh, two thousand and one.
A month earlier were the nine toeleven terror attacks. Yeah, yeah,
the full bad timing is really badtiming. Everything at this point is going

(13:07):
into the investigation into nine to eleven. Yeah. Yeah, So the FBI
is going to provide whatever they can, that's right, I agree, but
their top priority is going to beat this point nine to eleven. Unfortunately,
for his family here, you canunderstand that. I mean, so

(13:28):
it's not like they aren't they're notnot not putting any investigators on the case.
They from the local field office.It was all hands on deck for
the case. They may not havehad the resources at that time to to
dedicate to his case because, likeyou say, the nine to eleven,
the nine to eleven situation was goingon, and quite rightly, it's all

(13:52):
hands on deck with that one becausethat's you know, affecting everybody. I
mean, I kind of understand whyfamily would feel this way. They felt
slighted as well. They felt slightedas well as since they were not there
were no significant higher ups that hadsent or had attended his his memorial in

(14:15):
his funeral, Okay, I believethey sent They sent a low level director
to as their their person there.So I think I think the family felt
slighted, like they don't care aboutand they they grieve in and they don't
you know, to the family,Tom's death is you know, world shattering
for them. They're not thinking aboutnine to eleven, as sad as it

(14:37):
is. They're not thinking about that. They're thinking about the fact that they've
just lost you know the husband,father son, so you can understand why,
you can understand why they feel slighted. I do. I do get
it, Yeah, I do getit. Now, unfortunately, very few
clues remained at the scene of thecrime, with only bullets and shell casing

(14:58):
serving as a physical evidence. Now, given this limited evidence, investigators would
then focus on motive as a potentialavenue for solving the case. Which I
mean, if that's all you have, that's that's a very, very difficult
task to do in any situation,in any case. But I think with

(15:22):
at with Tom Wells, there willbe a lot of people right to consider.
Yeah. Absolutely so. Yeah,since this wasn't apparent there was an
apparent lack of randomness randomness in thisattack, investors would delve into Tom's personal,

(15:43):
social and personal life to see ifthere's anything that would pop up.
Now, they would be able toquickly see that Tom maintained a good relationship
with his ex wife, who wasactually overseas at the time of the incident,
so that was easy for them tosay, there's no reason for Elizabeth

(16:04):
to be involved in this. Shecouldn't have done this. She was in
Germany at the time. So let'smove on. So they they looked at
the ex wife, nothing there thatthat was significant. They also looked into
Tom's social life. Tom had beenromantically involved with several women after this separation,

(16:25):
including his current girlfriend. However,upon investigation, none of these women
appeared to have any motive for harmingTom. So there was no woman that
felt scorned, felt upset, feltlike she had been yeah, portrayed by
him, whatever it might be.So it wasn't a woman's scorn situation.
So you kind of have to moveon from that. Yeah. Now.

(16:48):
In July of two thousand and one, this was just three months prior to
his death, Tom found himself inan altercation at a parking garage near his
office. Now, his vehicle collidedwith a limousine, sparking a heated dispute
with the limousine driver, who requestedTom's insurance card and driver's license. Tom,
refusing to comply, left the garageand frustrate and frustration before colliding with
a truck on his way out.Now, this incident prompted the limo driver

(17:11):
to contact the police, resulting inTom being charged with a hit and run
offence. However, the charges wouldbe subsequently dropped a few weeks later.
To me, I don't think thatthis type of event would necessarily lead to
a grudge that could lead to death. I mean unless the limit driver get

(17:34):
angry at the time, aren't youYou're not angry, like you know,
a couple of days later, youcan't down from it. I mean,
are you still that angry that youcould go into someone's house and shoot them?
No? Exactly, I think ultimatelythat's what that's what investigators determined,
like, yeah, this could havebeen something, but there's there's no there,

(17:55):
there's not much to it. Somaybe at the time, yeah,
or the guy yeah, and IAnd here's the thing, we don't know,
Like okay, so while he refusedto comply and didn't give his insurance
information, that doesn't mean like lateron after he was charged, you know,

(18:18):
maybe the limit driver in the truckdriver they got it, they got
their cars fixed. Okay, done, move on right. Yeah. The
next thing investigators would do what theywould examine Tom's involvement with Washington ceasefire,
particularly his leadership and a hard hardfault statewide gun control initiative four years prior.
Okay, so this was a veryheated subject. So he was trying

(18:41):
to get some gun control laws putinto place in the state of Washington.
The NRA got heavily involved in oppositionto him. But the problem was this
was four years prior to his death. Right, So yeah, so that's

(19:02):
not I don't that's I don't thinkthat's necessarily gonna be a good motive if
someone was that upset with him.Here's the thing too, his initiative failed,
So even though he was like pushingfor gun control measures, it ultimately
failed. So would someone really holda grudge for someone who had tried to
put in gun control and ultimately didnot succeed and wait four years to commit

(19:23):
a murder? Probably not right.It's unlikely, isn't it. It is
very unlikely. So they also determinedthat tom subsequent activities after this gun control
initiative did not involve any notable controversiesor contentious issues. So even though he

(19:45):
was still involved with washing and ceasefire, he wasn't He wasn't leading any of
these initiatives. There was nothing thatwas currently going on that would get people
riled up and have people feel angertowards him. Yeah. Finally, investigators
would turn their attention to cases thatTom had been working on or what we're

(20:07):
working on as an assistant the UnitedStates Attorney there was one case in particular
that investigators would focus on. Forfive years prior to his death, Tom
had been focused on what he calledthe helicopter case. Okay, so this
is actually really interesting. So Seattle, the Seattle area is the home of

(20:29):
Boeing as well as numerous aviation suppliers. Now, this would attract aviation enthusiasts
to try to turn their passions intoentrepreneurial ventures. So people that would go
to a lot of people would goto Seattle area hope into they love aviation
and they want to work in theaviation and they want to start different businesses.

(20:49):
One such opportunity arose in the wakeof the Vietnam War. Now.
During the war, the primary workhorsehelicopter for the United States military was the
Bell UH one series, which iscommonly referred to as the Huey Okay Now.
The helicopters came in various configurations,many capable of transporting approximately a dozen

(21:12):
troops. Following the war, asurplus of around five thousand UH one helicopters
became available on the second hand marketin the United states. Seizing on this
opportunity, several local entrepreneurs opted torepurpose these surplus military models for civilian use.
All right, Now, these conversionswere legally legally permissible as long as

(21:36):
they adhere to safety regulations stipulated bythe Federal Aviation Administration. So what they
would do is they would take thesemilitary helicopters, they would do massive conversions.
They would you know, of course, you can't have military hardware in
these things, so you need tobe able to take it from a military
use to commercial use in that allthe safety measures and the commercial use are

(22:00):
there, right, So you know, at this time, I don't know
if you know what their requirements are, but I'm sure like the military use
helicopters, they don't have like thingslike seat belts, they don't have you
know, different safety mession. Soyou got to have those in if you're
going to have civilians utilizing them.Yeah, the public. Yeah, yeah.

(22:21):
Now, in the mid nineteen nineties, Tom had begun working with his
colleague Bob Westinghouse, who was aspecial agent from the FAA, in investigating
several helicopter conversions in the Seattle area, but by two thousand, investigation until
the helicopter conversions had begun to winddown with disappointing results. Their investigation had
led to only one guilty plea,which was a minor federal offense for a

(22:45):
record keeping in fraction. So bytwo thousand and two thousand and one,
there was only one case remaining okay. In nineteen ninety seven, investigators had
searched the premises of a helicopter companyowned by two local men, James Anderson
and Kim Powell. The firm thatthey own, called Intrex Helicopter, was

(23:08):
based out of Powell's home, andthey were renovating a single helicopter for civilian
use. Now, in two thousand, Tom obtained an eight count indictment against
Anderson and Powell on charges that includedconspiracies of the fraud, the United States
mail fraud, and making false statements. The government accused the men of falsifying

(23:30):
the helicopter's maintenance records and submitting themto the FAA as part of an effort
to certify the helicopter for civilian use. Now, this was quite lucrative,
right, so in case filings,the men actually stated that it was going
to cost them about six hundred thousanddollars to to actually convert these the helicopter

(23:56):
into civilian use. But after versionthey would be able to sell that converted
helicopter for roughly one point two milliondollars. So, wow, that's good
motive, big money. Yeah,that's a good motive. That's that's not
just like a smack to the sideof your limousine motive. That's a that's

(24:17):
a pretty hefty million dollar motive,that one. It is a big motive
right now. Stupid to ignore it, wouldn't you that if you put it
that way, I mean you've gotto obviously when you look at those two
as motives, which is the mostlikely somebody? I mean in America,
if you have an accident and youlike, I'm guessing it's the same as
England. So you have an accident, if the cars aren't sort of like

(24:40):
completely smashed in on the road andyou can both drive away, do you
exchange insurance details? And then soyou do so when you over there,
when you exchange insurance details, wouldyou just give a name, a telephone
number, and the registration of yourvehicle? Is that what you give each
other? Yeah? Yes, forthem? Yeah, yeah, there's no
dress you would give them your no. So there's no address. They so

(25:03):
unless these two guys followed him home, how would they know where he lived
to go back and like, I'mso mad at you for hitting my car,
I'm now going to shoot through thehouse and hit you. They would
have to follow him home to knowwhere he lives. I don't think that
an accident like that is going tocause so much anger that you then go
and research where this guy lives toturn up his house. When you look

(25:25):
at these two motives together, I'mthinking, as you're talking, I'm thinking,
as you're talking, it's got tobe something to do with his work,
because his work is so serious,it affects so many people. There's
a lot of money involved. It'sthe way I would kind of be I
would be looking if I was investigatingin this case, that would be where
I would be looking. Because hisdecisions and his his you know, his

(25:49):
court his court dealings are going toaffect a lot of people, and they
are going to cause people to losea lot of money. And these are
serious crimes. These are federal crimes. Yeah, we're not talking just like
yeah, it's not petty. Thesearen't petty crimes that people are committing.
These are major crimes. He wouldn'tbe wasting yeah, you know, five

(26:14):
six seven years of his life onthese cases if they were insignificant, exactly,
And so this, you know,if he was to suddenly go in
air quotes missing, then a lotof people would be a lot better off
because those cases aren't going to getthe attention that they're getting because he's not
around to do it. So itmakes me think we need to be looking

(26:37):
into some of the things that he'sdealing with with his work exactly exactly.
Now. Unfortunately for Tom, thiscase would would ultimately actually fall apart in
two thousand and one, right whenthe prosecutor's expert witness from the FAA decided
that he no longer supported the government'stheory. Okay, So on June twenty
ninety, two thousand one, Tomwas forced to dismiss the indictment against Anderson

(26:59):
and Powell. Okay. So whilehe had to dismiss it the indictment,
you gotta remember that doesn't mean thatthey can't come back, right, So
it can always come to this justgoes away. Yeah, it doesn't just
go away, you just stall again. It does not go away. So
that's one thing. Now there's anotherthing that occurred that would be another good
motive. Right on July twenty seventh, two thousand and one, so this

(27:23):
was a month after the dismissal ofthe indictment, James Anderson would pursue legal
action against the US Attorney's office,invoking an obscure statute known as the High
Amendment okay now enacted in nineteen ninetyseven. This law permits acquitted defendants in
federal court to sue prosecutors for reimbursementof legal expenses contingent upon demonstrating that the

(27:48):
case was pursued in a manner deemedfervolous and or in bad faith. Anderson
thought sought a reimbursement tolling one hundredand twenty eight thousand dollars from the government.
Now in response, Wales's office fileda rebuttal to Anderson's lawsuit in federal
District Court. In the brief thatthey submitted, they asserted, and I

(28:14):
quote, we are convinced that hebrings this motion in large part to discover
the identity of additional witnesses that heimagines may have contributed to his indictment.
Furthermore, he contended during the courseof the investigation, the government received information
from at least two persons inndictive ofthe defendant Anderson's violent and retributive nature,

(28:38):
so saying like he holds grudges,violent, and he goes after those that
he that he that he thinks havedone him wrong. Okay, Yeah,
so whoever slighted him, he goesafter them, like legally goes out them.
Okay. Now, Ultimately Anderson's motionwas dismissed and a decision upheld upon

(28:59):
subsequent appeace. So now James Andersonhas really two things that he's pissed off
about him. Yeah right, yeah, yeah, So now he's not getting
he's not getting his money back,he's not getting reimbursed for legal fees,
and yeah, he still has thisindictment hanging over his head. Even though
the original indicaments dismissed. It cancome back still there. That's sorry.

(29:26):
Now. James Anderson at the timewas a forty year old pilot for US
Airways, and he at the timeof the murder, he lived alone in
Beaux Arts Village, which is aSeattle suburb. On the night of Wales's
murder, Westinghouse, who was theFAA special agent working alongside Tom Wales,

(29:48):
told investigators that he thought Anderson shouldbe considered a suspect. For the next
several months, Westinghouse would receive aroundthe clock protection from US marshals, So
they took it serious. This Anderson'sthis innercent guy. Very serious. Right,
Yeah, Now it's believed that Andersonwould be the FBI's only suspect in

(30:12):
this case. Okay, well,he's pretty pissed off Anderson. I mean
really, Tom stunnhim is, youknow, he's done him some wrong over
and over. So he's it's agood motive. It's good. It's a
good motive. It is now.In two thousand and four, the Sattle
Times would disclose that the FBI conducteda search of Anderson's residence in Beaux Arts,

(30:37):
during which they seize twenty seven boxesof potential evidence. Additionally, agents
searched two properties in the neighboring cityof Bellingham, one where Anderson previously lived
in another where he would frequently visitfriends. At his former residence, investigators
extracted a bullet embedded in a wallfor forensic examination. While at his friend's

(30:59):
residence, a bullet and shellcasing wereconfiscated. Now. The Seattle Times would
also cite accounts from two neighbors ofAnderson and Bellingham who claimed to have occasionally
observed him discharging a handgun into theground near the rear deck of his home.
So this guy had a gun,he likes to shoot it. He's
obviously not very safe with it ifhe's shooting it into his walls and he's

(31:22):
just shooting into the ground. Yeah, into the ground. He's not a
big fan of gun safety. Now, Anderson's movements on the night of the
murder were traced in detail. Inthe early evening, he and a friend
had attended a showing of two thousandand one, a Space Oddity, at
a movie theater about ten minutes fromTom Wales's home in Queen Anne. After

(31:45):
the murder, someone had made telephonecalls from Anderson's home in Beaux Arts Village,
which was about twenty minutes from QueenAnne. According to a special agent
with the FBI, while the timelinebetween when the movie ended and the phone
call was made, while it wouldbe tight, it was not impossible for

(32:06):
a person to have committed a murderin between. Okay, So he's ten
minutes from Tom's home, Yeah,before the murder, and then he ends
up twenty minutes away after the murderers. Well, no, they said it.
It's the timeline is tight, butit is possible. It's doable.

(32:27):
Okay, it is doable. Yes, So so Anderson could have committed the
murders. He could have been thegunman, but there obviously is still not
enough evidence to prove this. Andhe's got good income, Anderson, so
he has got the means to notbe the person that did this, if

(32:47):
you get my meaning. He's gotenough, you know, he's got enough,
absolutely enough to be able to getsome help on that one. Absolutely,
you're absolutely correct. I mean,you've got to be a pretty you've
got to be pretty confident in yourshooting ability to shoot someone through a house,
you know, through a window.You've got to be quite confident in
your ability to shoot a gun likethat. Yeah, no, absolutely,

(33:13):
I mean sure you hit the rightperson, the right person. It's at
night, obviously, I don't knowwhat the lighting was inside the house.
No, I mean if it's ifif the lights are off, I mean,
how many times, like have youbeen on the computer at night and
you just it's just a computer monitor, right, you don't have any lights
on, yeah, because you don'tneed them on. So if it's just

(33:35):
a monitor light, I mean,how do you know that that's him?
Exactly interesting to see what it was, Yeah, what the actual crime scene
was like, I'd like to Iwould be really interested to see what what
situation we're looking at, what kindof because they would have done testity how
far away that gun was shot from, because you'd know from the injuries to
him how far away it was.So be really interested to see whether this

(33:57):
person is quite clearly a confident gunuser, or whether this person was just
like right up against the window makingsure it was definitely him, you know,
because obviously it's gone through the window. We know that it's not somebody
in the house. We know it'sgone through the window because of the glass
breaking, so we know that that'shappened. So it'd be really interesting to
see the actual what it looks likeoutside at that time of night, what's

(34:20):
the street area like, the whatthe lights like in the area. Is
it completely pitched back? Do youhave street lights? Has he got any
security lights and his property that comeon? It would be and I'm surprised
that he doesn't have any kind oflike security surveillance, you know, like
CCTV. I'm surprised that he hasn'tgot anything like that, considering he's got
such a high powered job and peopleare going to be pissed off with him

(34:43):
because of what he does and thedecisions that he makes throughout his job.
He makes enemies all the time becausehe makes decisions that are are huge money.
You know, it's huge money decisionsthat are effectively ruining some people's lives
and possibly putting them in prison.So I'd be really interested to actually see
I mean something that looked like somethingas simple as like a motion sensor like

(35:06):
floodlight in the backyard would have somethinglike that, right if he would have
had If he would have had that, like as soon as you know someone
you know, it picked up someonemoving the backyard lights would have come on.
He would have noticed it. Yeah, and you know he could have
taken measures to you know, getaway from the window, to get out

(35:27):
of the area. Considering he's gotsuch a high powered job, I'm very
surprised that the lack of security onhis property. Yeah, no, you're
absolutely right. Strength it is nowinvestigators would be able to determine that Tom
had been killed by a three eightycaliber bullets that came from a Macarov semi

(35:49):
automatic handgun. Okay, Ballistic expertswould notice some unusual markings on the bullets
indicating that they had been fired throughor through a replacement gun barrel. Oh
okay, this is amazing. Thisis why I love stuff. Like the
FBI investigators, they were able toactually locate the manufacturer of this replacement barrel,
and they were able to it isthey were able to learn that they

(36:12):
had sold approximately twenty six hundred ofthese barrels. So twenty six hundred of
these barrels. Wow. At thatpoint, the FBI then started a search
to find each and every one ofthese barrels. Imagine being that FBI agent
right that discovers that, and it'stells us that, yeah, we found
it's got a replacement barrel. Let'sgo and see how many of these things

(36:34):
have been sold, hoping there's goingto be like twenty thirty. And it
comes back two thousand and six hundredof them. Oh my god, that's
going to be exhaustive police work.And they're like, okay, trace,
go find them all exactly. Traceevery single one. Good luck. That's
that's crazy. Good on them,that's brilliant. I can tell you.
I can tell you they are stillthat they're still searching for all of them.

(36:58):
So I'm sure they found they foundI know, I'm you know,
they found a lot of them,but they are still searching. So that's
I mean, because once you findthat barrel, then then that's going to
open up a human Oh it's gonnablow the case. Why is absolutely so.
That's impressive that you you're able tolook at the markings on the bullets

(37:21):
and yeah, then be able todetermine, oh, this was a replacement
gun barrel. This is an originalgun barrel. Oh this is who manufactured.
That's unbelievable, it is. It'sreally is quite exciting. I can
imagine when they found that out whilstthey were doing that, I'm gonn imagine
it was quite an exciting find.And then you get there there's two thy
six hundred of them, and everybodyjust goes, oh, oh, okay,

(37:43):
okay, great. Great Now.In two thousand and four, FBI
agents would learn that shortly before Tomwas killed, one of his neighbors actually
had reported as a suspicion man inthe area. Somehow this information had fallen

(38:04):
through the cracks in the immediate aftermathof the killing, so it would take
him almost three years to learn,Hey, someone actually reported a suspicious man
and they were able to give adescription of them. So we're talking,
it's like, why, ah,how do you not know this? Frustrating?
Yeah, it would now. Investigatorswould then contact a neighbor who helped

(38:28):
them produce a sketch of the manwho he had seen pulling a black nyelon
suitcase in Tom's neighborhood just weeks beforehe was killed. The man was described
as being in his late thirties oror early forties, with a slim build,
black hair, tobacco stained teeth ina chipped left front tooth. He
got close to him then, toknow that his teeth was tobacco stained,

(38:52):
the ship in his teeth, that'squite a yeah, that's quite quite a
detailed description for somebody. Yeah,I think it would have been very helpful
if this would have come out intwo thousand and one, two thousand and
two. I mean it's helpful intwo four, right, But to have
someone who was able to say,yeah, there's a who know this person?

(39:14):
Might not have had anything to dowith it, but if it,
if it was, this person wasso suspicious that the guy called and then
three years later was able to describehim, that's something that's important. That's
significant, right it is? Yeah? I mean, seriously, if I
asked you to describe like somebody fromI don't know, six months, even

(39:36):
if I let's say I picked someonefrom crime Con, okay, somebody that
you were talking to at crime Conwhen we were both there, If I
asked you to describe what they actuallylook like, like like a proper description,
it would be difficult. It wouldbe so difficult because that was what
was last year. Okay, Solet me see if I can do this.
So there's one person who who thatwe take. I'll tell you what

(40:02):
I'll tell you. There's there's oneperson that sat opposite us the whole time,
Stuart from British Murders sat opposite usthe whole time. What does Stuart
look like? We literally sat thereall day facing him. What does he
look like? We looked at himall day? No idea? There you
go? What color hair has hegot? And you looked at him all
day like less than a year ago? Brown? There you go and this

(40:27):
guy is like, he's going backto tobacco stained teeth and and a chip
tooth what four years later. I'ma bit suspicious about that. Yeah,
A bit suspicious about that one.That's that's quite We sat in front of
Stuart British murders for more than eighthours that day. He was in the
bar with us. In the evening, we went out for dinner. He

(40:47):
was with us out for dinner.I can't describe him exactly, no,
and we looked at him for eighthours. He didn't just pull up in
a car with a suitcase and walkaway. I'm suspicious of that. I'm
really serious of that. But theywere okay, so even like there was
there was at least one person thatI found very weird there, right,

(41:09):
And I can I mean, Ican picture him. I don't know,
I don't like, Okay, thisis you know who I'm talking about.
They were always around and they werealways staring. Oh okay, yeah,
yeah, okay, So this ismy description. Let's see if if if
this is good. So he wasprobably around six foot maybe six yeah,

(41:34):
skinny, yeah, he had shortbrown hair, brown yea dead eyes.
I don't mean that, I don'tknow, yeah, yeah, yeah,
but what does teeth look like?No idea? And he came over and
spoke with us, Yeah, andwhat what does the teeth like? I

(41:58):
can't remember. I didn't remember whatthey look like. They're probably fine,
right, And that's what I'm saying. That's why I find that was less
than a year ago. There's twoof us less than a year ago later,
three years later, and you're rememberingdetails such as his teacher tobacco stained
and they were and they were likechipped. I'm just not sure. I'm

(42:20):
not sure that somebody has that muchof a to not report it for three
years and then to have that kindof like recollection, right, just seems
fishy to me. But you knowwhat, the biggest problem too, I
think with that is is that aif this person has nothing to do with
it, or be this person's recollectionis completely wrong. It completely throws off
the case because now people, youknow, you put out this, this

(42:44):
sketch of this, you know thisperson of interest, and now this becomes
oh, this is the person whodid it, and so this is who
we're looking for. Yeah, that'sright. And so if you've got if
you've got thoughts of somebody else,and then you see that your thoughts of
somebody else, you think it can'tbe him. It must be got Yeah,
it doesn't look like that, soit can't be them. No,

(43:05):
so you forget about that person becausethat's not what they've put in out.
So I agree, it seems itseems strange to me. I just find
that really strange that the recollection isso pinpoint three. I would have felt
better about it if it would havebeen immediately after the same year. I
agree, Yeah, definitely. Butthe fact that it was three years after
it was so detailed, I findthat strange. It is very strange.

(43:30):
Is very strange. Now, anotherthing, very strange thing happened in January
two thousand and six when a typeletter postmarked from Las Vegas arrived at the
FBI Field offices in Seattle, whichwas in regards to Tom C. Wales.

(43:51):
Okay, right now this letter,and I'm gonna I'm gonna read this
letter with what I have. Itsays, Okay, so I was broke
in between jobs. I got ananonymous call offering a certain amount of money
to shoot the guy. So Idrove to Seattle to do the job.
I did not even know his name. I just got laid off from a

(44:14):
job. Nice talking lady. Ididn't know her name. She called me,
talked to me by name, andasked if I needed some money.
I agreed to pursue the matter.Hell I was going bankrupt. I drove
to the address and then I parkedsome distance away north of downtown. I
kind of camped out in the yardof his house and waited for the guy
to settle in at his computer.Once he was there, I took careful

(44:38):
aim. I shot two or possiblymore times and watched him collapse. I
absurdly waited a few minutes, andthen I left. I was sure he
was dead. Retracing my steps,I dropped off the gun, found my
money, and I returned to Vegas. I feel bad about it, but
I needed the money. There wereno witnesses. Now. The envelope identified

(45:01):
the center as Gidget and gave areturn address to UH. Gave a return
address to a business in Las Vegaswith no apparent connection to the crime.
Investigators believe that the letter may Theletter may have been typed at a Kinko's
or somewhere similar, so Kinko's wouldbe it was a place that you would

(45:22):
go to like get things printed,or usually you could like take like like
fed X boxes to Kinkos for tobe picked up and delivered. You could
you you'd go there back when theyactually fax machines. If you need something
faxed, you go to Kinkos andthere fax it for you. Okay.
So very similar to like like aUPS or a fed X. I mean

(45:45):
doesn't have like the the it's notlike a it's not as shipping company.
But you could do stuff like thatthere. Yeah, Okay. Now,
there are no traces of the DNAanywhere on the letter or on the envelope,
so they weren't able to find anyDNA on it. Now. While
investigators believe that the account described inthe letter was a fabrication, it's also

(46:08):
believed that whoever wrote the letter hada fairly sophisticated knowledge of the murder.
That's what I was gonna ask.I wonder if they've I mean, I
don't know if they've given us thewhole letter, or if there's something in
that letter that the general public weren'taware of. Because if that's the case,
you kind of got you kind ofgot a good confession there. They

(46:28):
so they stated that there was informationin the letter which they estimated ninety percent
of the people of Seattle would haveno knowledge of, no idea of.
Yeah right, that's pretty clever.Yeah. An analysis of the letter by
the Behavioral Sciences Unions of the FBIsuggested that the author could have been connected

(46:49):
to the crime. Investigators were alsoable to determine that James Anderson was in
Las Vegas at the time the letterwas sent. Okay, so so interesting.
So I don't know what the pointof sending this letter would be though,

(47:09):
That's that's what I'm thinking. Imean, the only reason you would
send a letter like that is toease your own guilt, is to explain
what happened and what But i'd beyou know, they've explained why why he
was killed because someone's paid them todo it and they needed the money.
So they've kind of justified why theydid what they did without handing themselves in.
So you can't be that strang tome, which tells me that even

(47:31):
though Anderson wasn't biggest at the time, he he wouldn't have he wouldn't have
sent that letter. I don't thinkAnderson would have No, No, I
don't think so No, I don'tthink it's him. Yeah, if Anderson,
if Anderson committed the crime, andyeah, I don't think he did.
I don't think Anderson would feel badabout it at all. I also

(47:51):
don't think. I also think itmakes more sense to pay someone else to
do it, someone who's desperate,someone who doesn't know who you are.
That they are just the collateral damage. If they go to prison, they
go to prison, it's not yourproblem. You've paid them. If they
get themselves caught, they don't knowwho you are, so they're not gonna
You're not gonna get caught anyway becausethey don't know you. So I think

(48:15):
that what the letter is saying.I mean, he didn't meet with anyone,
he didn't see anyone, So Imean, who's gonna get it?
But is that that part true though? Right? Is it true? Is
it true that he's met with awoman. Is it true that he didn't
know the person who hired him?I mean, I say, these things
happen. You can do this oncraigslist, yes, you know. I

(48:37):
mean, look at the cases we'vecovered before where people hire other people,
people put themselves up for you know. I'm happy to go and shoot people
for you. I'm happy to beyou know, hired hitman for hire.
You don't know the person you're meeting. If this, then this person who
is say like an average Joe whois down on his luck, got no
money, and then goes and killssomeone and has remorse for it because he

(49:00):
was he was down on his luckand he's got no money, and that's
his that's his resolute that's his kindof reasoning why he did it. But
he's sorry, not sorry enough tohand himself in, but he's sorry for
doing it. And he kind ofgets that weight off of his chest by
writing this letter. But he doesn'timplicate anyone because he doesn't know anything.
So say that James did hire himthrough somebody else. Yep, no one's

(49:22):
gonna no one's gonna get get backto James with it because he doesn't know
that it was James that hired him. So I mean, to me,
this makes perfect sense to me,It makes it he's got he's got the
means, he's got the money.It makes perfect sense that this was a
murder for hire, whether it wasJames or not. You know, I'm
just I'm not saying it was himbecause I don't think I've got enough evidence

(49:44):
to say that. But for me, this seems like a perfect murder for
higher because no one, you know, no one's going to get back to
the person. This is all done. Here's your money hidden under this bush.
Get the job done. You canhave the money, you know.
So I don't exactly that's what itseems like to me. No, Yeah,
you're right, they're right now.In June two thousand and seven,

(50:06):
the number of agents assigned to thiscase would be reduced to just two.
So by two thousand and seven,I mean, they're moving resources. It
seems like the case is kind ofthe active case is kind of winding down
at that point, especially if you'resaying, Okay, you know, we
just need two people to continue towork in this case. So for the
next eleven years, not much wouldcome out in regards to the investigation into

(50:29):
the murder. Then, in twentyeighteen, FBI officials announced that they now
believed that the killing of Tom Walesinvolved a conspiracy and a hired gunman.
Yeah, a job to cherry.They should hire me in the FBI,
sign me up. Yeah. Now. At this point, their investigation was

(50:54):
focusing on James Anderson as well asa small circle people who agents is were
involved in the killing. Okay,Now, on the twentieth anniversary of Tom
Whale's death, so this was intwenty twenty one, the reward for information
leading to inurest in the murder ofTom Wales was increased to two point five
million dollars. Wow, that's abit different to the very first twenty five

(51:17):
thousand or whatever, Very very different. I know that previously they did they
did raise it to one point fiveat some point, but it's now up
to two point five million dollars now, Also reason to get people to come
forward. Two point five million dollarsdollars is a real pull on your on
your strings, isn't it really?I mean, twenty five thousand, could

(51:39):
you start over with a new life? No, two million, you could
start over a new life right now. Also, at the time, additional
details about the FBI's theory would beginto emerge. Now, I I'm not
going to go into the whole theorybecause this could be a whole other episode
and it's extremely detailed. So I'mjust going to give you just a brief

(52:01):
brief overview of what their theory is. Okay, Okay, So The current
theory is the FBI believe that Andersonis suspected of having connections to the Sinaloa,
Mexican drug cartel. Okay, okay, yeah, which could possibly link
them to the man that they believepulled the trigger. So at this point,

(52:22):
the FBI believe they know who killedTom Waits right, Yeah, they
are trying to link this man backto James Anderson. Okay, right,
so so so the theory goes onto state that they believe that Anderson had
been smuggling for smuggling drugs for theircartel and ultimately sought its help in finding

(52:49):
someone to kill Tom Wales for him. Okay, yeah, this would lead
to a low level career criminal fromshohamush. If I pronounced this wrong,
I'm sorry, but I'll try mybest. So Homuch County, Washington to
be recruited in order to pay offa drug debt. Yeah, the FBI
believe that this man did not knowwho ordered the hit, who he killed,

(53:13):
or why why? Yeah, I'mliking the FBI is thinking. So
I think the person who wrote theletter back in two thousand and six was
the gunman. Yeah, I agree, I think it's I think it's someone
trying to get it, someone whofeels bad trying to get it off their
chest. I mean, I'm notsaying I'm not. This is just purely

(53:36):
opinion, and I'm not we knowwe're not we're not investigators, but this
is purely opinion in that I thinkthat James not James, sorry, Tom
had so many enemies throughout his workthat you could pick. I mean,
we're talking about big money, andthat's the thing that I think is a
motivated We know through murder it's usuallysomething to have. Money is usually par
crime of passion. That there's thesefactors in murder, whether it's you,

(54:00):
usually they fall into a category.This is quite clearly a money category.
This isn't this isn't a relationship thing. This isn't somebody pissed off that he's
been sleeping with his wife. Thisis purely a money and a business this.
This is a guy that's getting inthe way of people doing the jobs
they're doing and making the money they'remaking. So I would say, hiring
some low level drug dealer who isdesperate because he's got no money and he's

(54:23):
got a debt to pay off becausehe owes these people he's going to do
it. It's the fight or flightmethod for a human. This guy's life
is at stake. He is goingto take the life of that guy to
save his own. He then feelsreally bad about it, and so he
writes in and says, this iswhat happened, this is what I did.
He's not giving up any names.I mean, I'd be very interested

(54:45):
to see whether the guy that theFBI think it is is actually still alive
right now, because if they thinkthat it was him and then all of
a sudden, this guy disappears offthe face of the earth. But they're
going to be pretty annoyed that he'swritten a letter in to say that,
and if they hear about it,he's not going to be the most popular
person in the world because they're goingto be worried that they are going to
pin it back to them, andthey are. They are kind of you

(55:07):
know, they're working their way backto now a drug cartel. I mean
that serious business. That that's notthat's not like a small town thing.
That's serious business. So I cansee it. It works, it's understandable.
That's a good that's a good wayto I think it's a really good
sort of line of inquiry. Imean, the amount of information that that

(55:29):
they have released on this is unbelievable. So what more have they got,
Morgan, That's the thing, theamount of information that they've they've released,
They've got a shit more. They'vegot so much more that they're not releasing.
My thought on this is that theycould. They could. I think
that they could go after who theybelieved the gunmen was. But yeah,

(55:53):
but yeah, they need they wantthe whole case. So they are going
after Anderson. So they are notgoing they're not gonna They're not going to
show their hand until they're able tomake the connection between Anderson and this gunman.
Yeah, so they're they're making theconnections. They just they're just waiting

(56:15):
for that. They're waiting for thatone hundred. Yeah, you're right.
I think I honestly think you're right. I agree with you. I mean,
this case is absolutely fascinating because what'san exciting case to work on this
as a Hollywood movie, right,Yeah, yeah, it is. I
mean you're talking about a federal agentmurdered, You're talking about conspiracy, you're

(56:38):
talking about drug cartels, you're talkingabout revenge retribution. This is absolutely fascinating.
I mean we obviously we're not forgettingthat at the heart of this is
the murder of a human being.I mean, that's that's the crux of
it. I mean Tom's family andthey've lost they've lost their family men.
But regardless of what Jobby does insteadof human but yes, working on this

(57:01):
case as an FBI agent or asa as a professional, this would be
a really really exciting case because there'sso much in it. I mean,
who would have thought, who wouldhave thought that it would come this far.
Yeah, it's just amazing because yeah, it's the case much. It
went seventeen years with like not reallynot a whole lot going on or not.

(57:23):
You know, it's like what arethey doing? How are they you
know, where's the case? Andthen all of a sudden in the past
well now it's been you know,six years, just so much wealth of
information has come out. We kindof we know where their FBI stands on
this, and I think more thanever they are determined to get this solved.

(57:43):
It's never too late. I mean, people don't give up on cases
like this where it's been years andnothing's happening. It may feel like nothing's
happening. But they work so hard, these agents, they work so hard
behind the scenes, and they there'sloads going on that no one knows about,
even the fam I've listened to podcastswhere you speaking to detectives and they
say, we couldn't tell the family, We couldn't let them know because if

(58:07):
they do, the family reacts acertain way. Things get leaked, things
get said, and then it canjeopardize the case. So they keep the
family in the dark. However wrongthat feels to the family. But the
end goal is to get these peopleand to get justice. Yeah, it's
absolutely insane. And I mean,just real quick going back to the sketch

(58:27):
that we talked about, like howwe don't trust it. Yeah, there's
actually a person who's involved with oneof these drug rings brings who's kind of
a he's not a person interest inthe actual murder, but he is almost
like, ah, he's an informant. I would basically call him an informant,
so he has a lot of knowledgeof how it wor. Yeah,

(58:49):
he states that he he knows theman, the man that is in a
sketch, and he knows at thetime this guy was in desperate, desperate
trouble, and so he met himoriginally in prison. He was a low
level criminal. He was involved indrug smuggling and drug distribution. Before the

(59:09):
murders, he had stolen nearly fifteenthousand dollars. He was in desperate need
of money. Yeah, and hehis description matches that of the sketch that
was put out in two thousand andfour. See, there's always something,

(59:29):
isn't it In these cases that seemimpossible at some point, there's always something.
There's always a set of loose lips, or there's a piece of evidence
that is just waiting to be found. It's just about finding them and putting
the pieces together. It's there,It's always there. It's just a matter
of finding it or the right personsaying the right thing at them, you

(59:50):
know, to the other right person. It's just is always there. It's
so crazy, amazing. It's stillactive investigation. Now, still active investigation.
Okay, they're just they're trying tomake all the links and they're trying
to put their case together. Itseems like frustrating, very frustrating, But
there's a lot of hope in thisone, and the family deserves real hope.

(01:00:15):
So yeah, Tom Wales didn't deserveto be shot and killed like that.
He was doing his job, andyeah, it's his job, you
know. Yeah, And if you'regoing to do bad things, if you're
going to do bad things, thenyou need to be prepared to be caught
for doing those bad things so youdon't have to do them. If you've

(01:00:37):
if you've got the balls to goand you know, be within a in
a situation like that, then you'vegot to have the balls to stand up
and get get counted when it's time. So, oh, have no sympathy
of them. So yeah, soso active. Hopefully they're able to finish
their case. Definitely need to keepan eye on this one, get indictments.

(01:00:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. It's really interesting and you can
find information out this online. Soif you're listening now and you and you
want to find out more about thiscase, you can just like Google Google
and have a look. Yeah,Tom Wales, I mean there's a lot
of information. Seattle Times has awealth of information. Okay, So yeah,

(01:01:19):
yeah, it's so fascinating because itcould because we can't cover the whole,
you know, the whole investing.You know, you said, we
haven't got time to cover the wholeof what the FBI was saying, be
interesting to go and have a lookat that. So if you've got five
minutes and this has really interested youtoo, like it obviously has Morgan,
he's there on the case, youcan go check it out. So,
yeah, check it out. I'msure he would love to talk to you

(01:01:40):
about it. You can send him, send him Instagram messages because he would
love that. He loves it.He's when a case captivates you, it
properly captivates you, doesn't it.So absolutely yeah, this one just had
this one fell into my lap andI started I was I was like,
okay, that's interesting. You know, assassination, federal, you know,

(01:02:00):
feral employee. And then it justgets worse and worse. I was like,
wow, this is you start talkingabout the CINELM a drug cartel,
like this is unbelievable. It does. It sounds like a film, it
does. It's crazy. In fact, probably one day it probably will be
a film or Netflix series or something. I'd give it to me, I

(01:02:22):
would take it. I would loveit. Well, thank you. It
was It was a very vera Ihave to go look that up now.
That was very interesting and like Isaid, if you found that interesting and
you want to chat to Morgan aboutit, I'm sure he will give you
all the facts that he can.He loves that kind of thing, so
I do so. At the endof our show, as we always do,

(01:02:45):
it's time to have a look atsome of the world's dumbest criminals.
He keptain stupid poopy pants, usea dummy. Now, this person really
is a dummy, Morgan. Sothis thief obviously watched too much television and
how to carry out his crimes.Okay, as a twenty nine year old
tried to break into his neighbour's flatusing his bank card. Now, as

(01:03:07):
he was doing this, he wokethe owner up and obviously, in his
haste to get away, the cardsnapped in half. Okay, leave him
behind his name and account details inthe door. So the victim opened the
door and outfalls half of this guy'sbank card. So he calls the police.

(01:03:28):
The police turn up, see it, speak to the bank, and
the guy lives like next door.So when they went in to speak to
this is even worse. When theygo in to speak to this guy,
the other half of the bank cardis on his kitchen tablefall it's just sat
there. He didn't even have likethe he didn't even have the brains to

(01:03:50):
like throw it away or hide it. He just like he just left it
on the table. So the policehave gone, oh yeah, thanks very
much. Those two together, offyou come with us? Son? Did
he did he think his neighbor wasgone or something like why would you?
Why would you do that if youknew your neighbor in there? Okay,

(01:04:11):
I can understand if he's like,oh, you know, Fred is on
holiday somewhere, so I have youknow, I can get in right and
then maybe then it breaks and thenyeah he oh, shoot, friend's friends
here, I gotta take off inyour you know, come on, A
is your neighbor you should know whenhe's there or not for the most part.
Yeah, b if if your creditcard breaks, and make sure you

(01:04:33):
take the whole thing with you guy, yeah, or like why didn't you
like pretend to be drunk and sayyou thought it was your flat you live
next door? You could be like, oh, I'm sorry, I had
too much to drink. I wastrying to again, and that's my key.
I didn't know what I was doing, Like why would he probably saw

(01:04:58):
that on YouTube? Like how tohow to get into a place with a
credit card? I know, Imean realistically, nowadays, how many places
can you actually get into with acredit card anymore? Like lots have changed
a bit since the fifties. Youcan't really do anymore. So stupid.
So yeah, so off he wentarrested then for attempted burglary and in trouble.

(01:05:19):
Criminal record for you. Now nowhe has to get too because you
can't go back to your home.How embarrassing, Like, hey, hey
Fred, sorry about famed like ahead injury. Yeah exactly, I would
like, can you take a parcelfor friend next door? No? Sorry,
I can't take anything for next Idon't want to see him ever again.

(01:05:44):
Wow. If you want to submita dumb criminal to us, you
can do. You can just emailus. Email addresses are so easy.
It's just contact at crimepedia dot com. No, crimepedia podcast dot com.
Yep, that's it. And oryou can just send us it on Instagram.
That's probably the best place. Don'tsend it to us on Facebook because
we're both useless with Facebook, sodon't be horrible. Don't do that.

(01:06:08):
Won't see it till next year.We are terrible with Facebook, so Thank
you for joining us this week.It's lovely to be back with you.
We will be back in two weekstime with another case, and that would
be my case, so for nowit would be nice and bye.