The Murder of Patsy Morris

Teenage girls are full of mystery- hormones all over the place as they embark on the journey to adulthood. For one young woman, adulthood would never be a place shed reach. Her parents would never know what kind of adult life she would lead- what job shed have and if shed have a family of her own one day.

Someone took that away from them.

Music: Return Of The Hero (instrumental) by Sascha EndeFree download: https://filmmusic.io/song/451-return-of-the-hero-instrumentalLicensed under CC BY 4.0: https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

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Episode Transcript

(00:38):
Welcome to crime Pedia Podcast. Iam your host this week. I am
cheery and with me as always ismy bff. It is Morgan. Hello,
Cherry. How are you. I'mgreat, thank you. How are
you doing quite well? Thank you? And we are in well and truly
in the Christmas season. Now it'scoming up to Christmas. We've got one

(01:00):
episode left before Christmas. That's ourlast one of twenty twenty twenty thirty three.
That's crazy, that's actually quite frightening. You just started. I know,
it's come around really really quickly.So yeah, we've got one more
episode left next week that'll be Morgan'sepisode, and then we'll be taking a
break for Christmas to leave you guysto get on with family stuffs, and

(01:22):
we'll be back in the new year. Then. I think we're back.
Yeah, we're back early in thenew year, so that'll be quite nice.
Yeah. I think it's the secondweek in January. I think yeah,
I think it is. Yeah,night around January ninth, I think
it is. Yeah, I thinkthat's our Yeah, it's exciting. So
we've got a lot, a lotof cases to talk about for next year.
We've had a lot of suggestions whichI'm really pleased. Thank you so

(01:46):
much for all of your case suggestions, and we definitely do look into them.
You should always if you do suggesta case to us, you will
normally get a reply back from us, so we will reply to you and
then we'll put your case on thelist to look into. We've got quite
a few, which is really lovely. So we've had a lot of people
that have come forward with case suggestionsand if you want to do that,
you can indeed do that. Allyou need to do is just email us

(02:07):
easy Cheery at Crimepedia podcast dot comor Morgan at Crimepedia podcast dot com,
or you can catch us on oursocials. But I would say we're not
that often on Facebook. I haveto keep saying that because I keep finding
messages from people on there from weeksago and I haven't seen them. So
I'm not being rude at all.It's just us. We don't have a
team that manage our our social media, so it's just us doing Twitter and

(02:30):
Facebook and everything else or X asit's now known, and our Instagram and
stuff like that. So we tendto be most easily reached on Instagram if
you didn't want to message us.So just so that you know. Now,
this week's case is a case.It's a more recent case for me
anyway, you know how I likethe old style cases. This is a

(02:50):
case that is from nineteen sixty six, so it's quite recent for me.
I know, it is very recentfor me. And this was one that
I came across when I was researchingLondon for another project. I was researching
crimes in London and this one cameup. And I must say I had

(03:12):
never heard of this when I wasreading through it. There were so many
different there's so many different links tothis, so many different people that it
could have been, that could havebeen the perpetrator, that I really wanted
to talk about this, particularly becauseit was such a long time ago and
the family of the victim, theparents have now both since passed away.

(03:37):
And I always think that those casesare particularly sad when a parent passes on
after the death and they don't getthe resolution or they don't get the answers
that they're looking for. And soI think it's really important to keep cases
like this alive because the more wetalk about them there, the more alive
they are. If usually if noone's talking about them, they're kind of

(03:58):
shelved unless something new who comes tolight, and so in that case.
This week's case is the murder ofPatsy Morris. Teenage girls are full of

(04:30):
mystery hormones all over the place asthey embark on the journey to adulthood.
For one young woman, adulthood wouldnever be a place that she would reach.
Her parents would never know what kindof adult life she would lead,
what job she'd have, and ifshe'd even have a family of her own.
One day, someone took that awayfrom you. This is Crimepedia,

(04:53):
and this is the case of PatsyMorris. Okay Morgan. So, Patsy
was born Patricia Morris on the tenthof January nineteen sixty six. She lived
with her father, George, whoI've read different reports. Some of the
reports say he was retired, aretired chief from the army. Other reports

(05:15):
say he's retired and works still worksin the barracks. So I think I'm
going to go with what the policereport said, because again I think that's
most accurate, and will go withthe fact that he was retired, retired
from his post in the army,but he still worked within the barracks.
Her mum Marjorie and her sister andtwo brothers all lived together. She had

(05:38):
moved with her family from Birmingham toIleworth in southwest London. Now she moved
to a place called Signet Avenue andthey moved in nineteen seventy nine and she
attended Feltem Comprehensive School with all hersiblings. All went to the same school.
Now, on the sixteenth of Junenineteen eighty she was fourteen years old.

(05:59):
She was she was bubbly, Shehad lots of friends. She wasn't
as far as we know from thereports that we've got from friends and things.
She was quite an outgoing girl,but not over the top outgoing.
So people knew of her, butit wasn't like she was like the life
and soul of school, if youknow what I mean. Now. On
that day, Patsy left her schoolduring lunch break. She told her friends

(06:20):
that she had forgotten her raincoat thatmorning and she was completely soaked through.
She decided to go home at lunch, get her coat, get changed into
dry clothes, and then she wouldgo back to school for the second half
of the day. So a witnessrecalls seeing Patsy soon after noon that day

(06:41):
near her home, and I believethat this was a neighbor. There was
another witness who recalled seeing a girlwho may have been Patsy, crouching at
a bus stop on the Hounslow Heathside of Stains Road. Now this is
just west of the Hussar Public House, and they say that they saw her
there between twelve twenty and twelve forty. This would be the lunch break.
Some schools will break up for lunchbetween sort of half past twelve and half

(07:05):
past one. And both of thesewitnesses recall seeing her around noonish, between
sort of noon and one o'clock.So we've got like an hour window of
where two people think they might haveseen her. Okay, and this was
the last sightings that we have ofPatsy. Now, Patsy had double history

(07:25):
that afternoon, and there have beensuggestions from friends of hers that she hated
that class and would regularly bunk off. So she would regularly skip that class
and go somewhere else. And therewas suggestions that perhaps that day, the
wet coat and that kind of thingwas just like a ruse to be an
excuse for her to leave school.And I can understand that, you know,

(07:46):
when you score, and you're ateenager and you get a double class
in the afternoon that you absolutely hate. You can kind of use that excuse
that I'm soaking wet through I needto go home and change and something happened
and I couldn't get back to school. Yeah, right, right, right.
So the two sightings of Patsy nearher home and crouching by the bus

(08:07):
stop are the last sightings that anyonehad seen because she failed to read her
home from school that day. Now, her siblings obviously all in the same
school. She didn't meet them towalk home. They didn't know where she
were where she was sorry, andher parents then began to get worried,
so they called the police and reportedher missing. Now, after she was
reported missing, police launched actually quitea large operation to find her. This

(08:31):
involved hundreds of police officers. Theytook this quite seriously. Right from the
beginning. They had helicopters out tolook for her. They had members of
the public who volunteered to help lookfor her. Because she was at the
time only fourteen. This is innineteen eighty, so she was you know,
she's a young girl. She missingfrom her home. It's not her
usual thing. She wasn't the sortof kid that would like true and not

(08:52):
come home. She was quite adependable girl. She did what she was
told. Her parents have said shewas you know, she was one of
those kids that broke the rules thatthey knew of. But who really knows
what their fourteen year old kids areup to? Realistically? Right? You
know? Right you are when you'rea teenager, you are one thing in

(09:13):
front of parents and completely different withyour friends, aren't you. We all
know that we've done it, youknow, we've been at that age you
are. You're testing the waters alittle bit, right, to see what
can I get away with? Whatwhat can't I get away with? Yeah?
Definitely my parents will never know.Yeah, exactly, there's some water

(09:33):
testing. They're the scene. They'rejust they're putting their toe in to see
how much independence they really really have. Yeah. And it's a weird age,
isn't it, fourteen Because it's thatage where you're not you're not an
adult, you're not quite an olderteen you just come out of like preteen,
so you're kind of like you justyou're just learning. You're learning the
way of the world, aren't you. And it's difficult because fourteen year olds

(09:56):
don't always make the best decisions exactly. Yeah, especially here, it's a
weird time because usually like thirteen fourteen, with how our school system set up,
that's usually like you're when you're thirteenfourteen, you're in eighth grade,
so middle right, Yeah, eighthgrade the last the last year of middle

(10:16):
school, so you're at the topof the food chain, right hierarchy.
Yeah, then you quickly move onto high school where you're right back to
the bottom. So yeah. Soso for a very short period of time
there being a fourteen Yeah, yourtop of the tree. You feel like,
you know here I am, Ifinally made it, and you're about

(10:37):
to hit the ceiling. I knoweverything and I've grown up. Yeah.
So here in England, fourteen yearolds are in sort of year eight,
year nine, that's eleventh. Yeah, so about year eight, year nine.
Now, as as the parent ofa teenage girl, year nine I

(10:58):
must say is the most testing yearas a parent of a teenage girl.
It's the year where they're not quitebecause obviously we start our secondary school in
year seven, so you finish,you'd finished primary school, you start secondary
school in year year seven, whichis about eleven years old. So when
you get into year nine, you'vebeen in school a couple of years.

(11:18):
You kind of know everybody, youknow everything. You're not quite top of
the tree, but you're not thatnew kid anymore. You're not You're not
the like the green kids, thefirst year kids. You've had a couple
of years to settle in. SoI found, and a lot of my
friends with teenagers at the time foundthat year nine was the backchating year,
the testing of the smoking year,the staying out late and not coming back

(11:41):
when you're supposed to year. Itwas the worst year of the whole of
a secondary school, I think personally. So she's well and truly, she's
well and truly in that, inthat in that years. Now, two
days later, on the evening ofthe eighteenth of June, a police dog
handler was searching the edge of HowslowHeath. Now you might Houslow Heath is

(12:03):
in London and there are a lotof crimes that have happened on Hounslow Heath.
Later on we'll talk about a potentialsuspect in this that you will recognize
the name of. And it's notthe sort of place that you really want
to be walking by yourself. Now, he was on the edge of Houslow
Heath and unfortunately he made a grimdiscovery. He discovered the body of a

(12:24):
young woman who was faced down ina copse by a pathway. Now,
the location of her body was aquarter of a mile from where she lived
and where Patsy lived. It wasa five minute walk from where she lived,
and it was on the route betweenher home and her father's workplace,
which is at Calvary Barracks, whichis next to like a golf course.

(12:46):
Now, there are conflicting reports onhow Patsy was found, and this is
very if you look this up onthe internet, if you have a look
around the different articles and the differentreports and the police reports that I've read.
I've read that she's been found halfnaked. I've read that she was
found fully closed. I'd read thatshe had been raped, and then i
read that police had found no signof sexual assault. So it's very hard

(13:07):
to determine true facts in what happenswhen there's so many conflicting accounts of what
was found. So again I'm goingto go with the initial police reports that
I read, because I think thatthat's going to be the most chance of
being correct, because a lot ofthe articles and things are obviously people's interpretations
of what happened. So I'm goingwith the initial police reports and the official

(13:30):
reports and the official requests that wereput out by police at the time the
appeals. So the police reports saythat Patsy had been strangled with a ligature
believed to have been her tights.It was also reported, and this is
very widely reported, that she waswearing two pairs of underwear. Then this
was initially quite a puzzle for thepolice. But as a female, this

(13:52):
isn't something that I find puzzling atall, and especially being a teenager at
school. This was commonplace when Iwas a teenager. So at that age,
you're fourteen, you're new to likebody changes, you're new to periods
and that kind of thing, andhaving to do lessons like pe can be
very embarrassing at that age because youhaven't quite got to grips with the cycles

(14:13):
of things going on in your life. Okay, So to save embarrassment,
a lot of girls would wear twopairs of pants, like two pairs of
underwear. Another reason girls might weartwo pairs of underwear, and this is
for me, is what we usedto do. If it was winter time
where it was cold and you werewearing tights, your tights always fall down,
no matter what size you get,they always fall down. So what

(14:35):
we would do is you'd have yournormal underwear on, then you'd have your
tights on, and then you'd youcall those panty hose over there, don't
you tights, yeah, panty hoseyeah, Okay, So then you'd have
those on, and then to keepthem up, you'd put another pair of
underwear over the top, so thatwould like make sure it didn't they didn't
fall down. Basically, so twopairs of underwear didn't really shock me or
like make me think that was initiallya puzzle, but apparently police were confused

(15:00):
as to why she would be wearingtwo pairs of underwear. That makes perfectly
good sense to me. Yeah,and another reason, see another reason why
you might wear two pairs is becauseif you had pe and you wouldn't like
you're getting changed and you have togo and do pee in front of like
boys. In our school, wehad to wear pee skirts at the time,
So we're talking about roughly the samesort of time. When I was
a kid, we had to wearpee skirts, and so it was always

(15:24):
embarrassing if you were playing something likenetball and if you jump up in the
air or something, then everybody cansee your underwear. So what we would
do would be you would wear yournormal underwear and then you'd have like pee
underwear, which is that would bedark to match your pee skirt, so
then you wouldn't really notice so much, if that makes sense. That makes

(15:45):
sense, Okay, Yeah, sothat was like another reason. So that's
possibly why I personally think she couldhave been wearing two pairs of underwear.
Now, they said that the postmortem found no signs of sexual assault or
actually other injuries other than this ligaturestrangule around her neck. Now police released
a public statement after finding Patsy warningparents not to let their children around West

(16:07):
London cross Hounslow Heath alone. Now, this is something that I think parents
would tell their children anyway, youknow, don't cross the heath by yourself,
because it's even back then, therewas still there were still reports of
rapes. There were still reports ofattacks on Hounslow Heath even back then,
So I think realistically most parents livingin the area would, particularly teenage girls,

(16:33):
would tell them not to cross theHeath by themselves. I mean,
you think now, in your areathat you live in, there's going to
be areas that you're going to sayto your teenage daughter, don't walk that
way alone. It may be quicker, but don't walk that way on your
own, you know. So Ithink it's only any reasonable to think that.
So, okay, I'm trying tofigure this out. So she was
last seen by this public house,by the pub, Yeah, by the

(16:57):
pub, Yeah, the one witnessby one okay, which is on the
I would say, the northern edgeof this Houndslow Heath, that's right,
yep, and then signet would beall the way across hound Low Heath to
yes, southwest. Now I'm assumingwas this a I'm I'm assuming it was

(17:21):
a public a public bus stop whereshe was seen. Yeah, So would
she have been was she walking ordid she take the or did she actually
take the bus? Well, theydidn't say. All they saw was that
she was crouching down by the busstop. That's that's all they saw was
a girl that matched her description,crouching down by the bus stop by the

(17:44):
heath. So whether she was theregoing to catch a bus, or whether
she was there and she missed thebus and then decided to walk across the
heath because again, like we've said, fourteen year olds don't always make sensible
decisions. They cut through alley's insteadof walk in the long way round because
they think nothing's going to happen tome. It's just an alley. I'll
just walk quickly through it. I'vedone it, you know, I've been

(18:06):
fourteen. I've done that. I'vewalked through places I shouldn't have walked through
when my mum has told me donot walk that way. And I think,
well, I can run through thatin like five minutes, or I
can walk all the way around,which is going to take me at least
half an hour. What are yougoing to do? You cut through?
I'm just I'm curious because I wouldassume that if let's say that she had

(18:27):
taken a bus, that there wouldbe yeah, closer bus stops to wear
her houses. I mean because ifyou, if you like looking at looking
at where she is, like shewould be closer to like the center part
of Feltum than where she supposedly waslast seen. Yeah, I'm not Yeah,

(18:48):
I'm not sure why it might nothave even been her might isn't it.
That's the thing that's true. Yeah, So so if it wasn't her,
then it's not a big deal.If it was her, what is
she doing there when? Yeah?Why that bust Why that bus stop?
Because obviously there's gonna be bustops thatare closer to her than where she was

(19:10):
seen. So well, the perhapsy'sparents did say that she had no reason
to be on House o'heath at all, and they said that they couldn't understand
what she was doing on the heath. She was always told not to go
there, and she never disobeyed ourorders. I get that from a parent's
point of view, you like tothink that your kid is never going to
do what you've asked them not todo. But you know, we've all

(19:32):
been teenagers and we've all gone,oh what a mum and dad know they'll
never know. Let's just you know, so I can see that now.
The thing that made me think aboutthat was I thought, normally, if
you're going to skip school, okay, you don't usually skip school on your
own, if you're going to skipa class, you wouldn't. I don't

(19:52):
think you would. You would,there'd be a reason for you go into
that heath. Okay, you wouldn'tjust go and walk on the heath for
no reason. Like I can understandcutting through it to get somewhere else because
it was quicker, but there wouldbe no reason for her to just go
and oh, I'll just go andwalk across the heath because I've got nothing
to do. I don't think thatthat would be the case, particularly as
she probably had her house key andmom and dad were both at work,

(20:15):
so she could have gone home andnobody would have known. Now, the
neighbor said she had returned home thatlunchtime and had believed that maybe Patsy had
forgotten her key and was crossing theheath to go to her father's work to
get the key so that she couldgo back to the house and get changed.
Now that makes sense, that's plausibleenough. Instead of she's thinking,

(20:36):
oh God, i'm soaking were I'mfreezing cold, I've got to go back
to school or not. But Ican't get into the house because I've forgotten
my key, So I would justcross over the heath rather than go all
the way around. She could havegone to the bus stop and then you
know, to catch the bus towhere her dad worked. Maybe that was
the only bus that went from thatstop, so she could have gone there
stopped at that bus, but thenthe bus was too late, so she's

(20:57):
thought, oh, do you knowwhat, I'll just walk across the heath.
It will only take me however long. So that sounds like applausible enough
reason for her to be on theheath, But that's if she was going
home to get changed. If shewas going home to bunk off of school.
I wonder if she was meeting somebody. Yeah, and if that person

(21:23):
doesn't have great intentions, the heathwould be a good place to meet her,
you know, because even if itwas a teenage boy, if it's
going to be somebody who's a littlebit edgy or a little bit out there,
somebody she's not supposed to be seeing, or you know, she's not
supposed to be being seen with,probably the heath would be a good place

(21:45):
to go because people aren't going tobe just randomly walking across the heath,
so there's less chance that she's goingto get caught meet in that person because
they're out the way, you know. Yeah, And I only think this
because of my own experiences when Iwas a teenager to walk to school I
had to walk across a massive heathto get to school, and if I

(22:07):
walked the long way around, itwould take me almost an hour to get
to school. But if I cutacross the heath that which my mum would
say, you only do it withyour brother or if you're walking with somebody
else, it would take me fifteenminutes. And I will admit the amount
of times I've walked across that heathon my own because it would only take
fifteen minutes, and I didn't wantto walk the four forty five minutes all
the way round, and I didit loads of times. And I've also

(22:32):
met people I shouldn't have been meetingon the heath. You know, Cherry,
I know she bad teenage me,but that's what makes me think.
I wonder if she was meeting somebody, you know, because that would also
make sense. Okay, so justthinking about this, Yeah, let's say
that. Okay, let's say that. Yeah, either one. Let's say

(22:53):
that either she's meeting someone and she'dgone across the heath, or she's walking
to the barracks. Should have akey. Yeah, let's say the siding
of her across the street from fromthe Hussar is valid, which for some
reason I kind of feel like itwould be because you think about this,

(23:14):
how many how many fourteen year oldgirls are you going to be seen in
that area at this time when school'sin session? Right, Yeah, she's
not gonna be seeing a whole lot, right, So if someone I just
have this feeling, Okay, ifsomeone saw saw a fourteen year old girl
right there, chances are it probablywas pasty. That's that's what I'm kind
of feeling feeling like. But here'sthe thing. Let's say that that that

(23:37):
siding is valid, and that wouldindicate that she's already crossed the heath once.
So if she was gonna go toher dad's you know, work to
get to to get a key,yeah, that wouldn't mean that the dad
would would have seen her. Yeah, and then she would have then something

(23:57):
would have happened to her on theway back. Yeah, I get what
you're saying. So we know,for we know that dad didn't see her,
she didn't go to retuever key,No, she didn't feel she made
it for a heath. Then thenwhat happened did someone you know, did
someone get her on her way down, you know, walking out street and

(24:18):
take her back into the heath,yeah, or like you said, was
she going to meet someone? Mmm? Well, the police questioned all of
Patsy's friends and her classmates and theytried to find out what her movements had
been, and to be honest,most of the kids didn't or other than

(24:41):
saying she didn't really like history,so she would usually bunk off of history
and she you know, she wouldn'tbe in school for that. There wasn't
really anything that anybody you know,dabbed her in about. There. There
was no kind of like friends thattalked about a secret boyfriend or the fact
that she talked about a boyfriend oranything like that. So talking to the
friends kind of drew a blank.Really, they didn't really have much to

(25:04):
offer. Now. On the twentysecond of June, which was four days
sorry after she was found dead,a detective on the investigative team told the
press that they felt that another youngsterplaying truem could hold key information on the
murder. Now, there's not alot of information on this youngster that they're
talking about, other than the factthat they are saying that they believe that

(25:26):
one of her friends may have alot more to say than they actually are.
In December of nineteen eighty, thepolice had some information come forward and
they publicly appealed for a driver ofa blue van with a telephone in it
to come forward. Now, backin the eighties, the only vehicle telephone

(25:47):
that you could get was kind oflike a big box telephone and it was
I mean in England, if you'veever seen Del Boy and his telephone,
it's this huge box that massive AntiKennor on it, and it's like,
is Ferris Bueller's day off? Doesn'the have one in there? In the
car? He's got this huge likecar phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

(26:08):
it's like a satellite phone. Sothere's not very many of these.
We know that there wasn't a lotof cars or vans that had a phone
a satellite phone in it. Nowthey appealed for this driver because the guy
was seen using the telephone handset inhis van near to Patsy's home around the
time of her murder, and thedetectives said that he could have seen something

(26:29):
that would help the investigation. Sonot that he was be a suspect as
such, but he might have seenher. But as as such nothing nobody
came forward. And nothing happened withthat information. By this point, police
had only managed to trace nine outof the twenty two people who were playing
golf that day on the course nextto where Patsy was found. The detectives

(26:52):
also appealed for their help to tracea five foot ten inch man who had
dark gray in hair and who waswearing a dark suit. There's again not
a lot said about him either.So again, because we've done cases before
where you have a golf course involved, where there's a lot of people that
aren't always accounted for. I'll giveyou a golf for such a bad name,

(27:14):
but you know it's people do goon golf courses that aren't playing golf.
You know. Those sort of areasare places where you do tend to
find some not so great things happen, you know. But as they only
managed to trace a nine out ofthe twenty two people playing, so they
didn't even get all of the peoplethat were playing golf that day that were
scheduled in. So the police investigationsat the time drew a complete blank,

(27:37):
and the murder wasn't murderer wasn't apprehended, and basically it just all went quiet.
Now it's It's been over forty yearssince Patsy was found. Both of
her parents, like I said,had passed away, never found out what
happened to their daughter, and theinvestigation into her murder found that there were

(27:59):
no suspects that to light, noother witnesses than those we've already talked about.
Following her murder, Patsy's dad reportedto police that he had received a
call which was a death threat thatthe caller sounded to be like a young
man, possibly a teenage boy.So the police put this down to some
sort of hoax because unfortunately, thishappens, doesn't it in cases, There

(28:22):
are people that do that sort ofstupid thing, and nothing, nothing came
of that one either, So theyjust just said I was a hoox.
I mean, I would assume orhope that they would at least investigate to

(28:42):
confirm that it was in fact ahoax. But there's nineteen eighty, isn't
it, So they don't have thelike the telephone tracing equipment and that kind
of thing that we have nowadays,unfortunately, So that was just put down
to it being kids, you know, being stupid, and there wasn't any
other calls, you know, therewasn't any other calls that were actually recorded.

(29:03):
Now, in nineteen ninety six,the case reopened because the police had
received information about a man from Hounslow. Now they arrested this guy and they
raided this suspect's house at dawn onthe eighth of July. It was a
thirty three year old man, andthat meant that at the time of her

(29:23):
murder, he would have been seventeen, and that kind of like fourteen to
seventeen. That's interesting. Now,he was released on bail, but was
reinterviewed later that year in the August. Now in October he was released from
police custody on bail and it wasreported that the police had applied for permission
to charge the suspects from the CrownProsecution Service. However, the CPS had

(29:48):
decided not to prosecute the man.Oh so then maybe that it wasn't strong
enough evidence. Although they've got evidence. It might not have been strong enough,
but it did didn't it didn't,you know, it didn't justify for
the CPS good enough evidence to chargehim. Now, this man has never
been named publicly, so we don'tknow who this guy is because he's not

(30:10):
actually been named okay, so hewas seventeen she was at the time.
Yeah, okay, so that's interesting. You know, we're talking about perhaps
meeting somebody that is quite interesting.It's a good agean yeah, possibly,
yeah, Okay. Now, intwo thousand and seven, Perhaps's murder was

(30:33):
considered to be linked to the serialkiller Peter Tobin. Now we know that
he was found to have killed threewomen between nineteen ninety one and two thousand
and six. We know Peter Tobin'sm O, we know how he used
to work. We know that therewas you know, strangulation and sexual assaults
with him. Now police that workedon the Tobin murders believe, yeah,

(30:55):
well, the time for it isoff because obviously, but we do know
that police believe that Peter Tobin hashas been responsible for a lot more murders
than he's actually been connected to,like a lot more murders. If you
ever go to David Swindle's show thathe does, you'll realize just how many

(31:15):
people they think he's responsible for hurtingin one way or another. Because he
does have victims that didn't die.He does have victims that he has assaulted
and raped and sexually assaulted that haven'tcome forward because they're too embarrassed. Was
he was he ever active in thisarea? Well, he's not far mean,

(31:38):
Peter Tobin was throughout the whole ofthe country. So I think the
police police just looked at this becausehe went from like Scotland all the way
down to like Margate. Folks inthat kind of area, so it would
be it would be kind of onthe way down the country. It's it's
possible that he was in London.London's very central to do you know,

(32:00):
to everything, and he I thinkhe did have I think he was living
in London at some point if Iremember rightly. I think he was living
in London at some point. Butit was reviewed as part of the investigation
into other potential victims of Tobin,which was Operation Anagram. We know that,
and the investigation was wound down Ithink in twenty eleven, and they

(32:22):
found no evidence that conclusively linked himto Patsy. So I think it was
just one of those things that theywere just looking at it. And obviously
they have to consider that she mighthave been because of the you know,
because of the fact that he wasactive in that time. Now a new
suspect was arrested in Patsy Morris's case. Later in two thousand and eight,

(32:43):
Now this is nearly twenty eight yearsafter she was strangled on Howslow Heath.
This was a forty two year oldman who walked into a police station in
Norfolk and told officers that he hadkilled her back in nineteen eighty. So
Detective Chief Inspector Howard Groves of theBarnes Murder Team said, this individual claimed
to be responsible of the murder ofsomeone in nineteen eighty on Hounslow Heath.

(33:07):
So as a result of our inquirieswe came across the murder of Patricia Joyce
Morris. He was therefore arrested forthat murder, brought to a police station
in London and then investigated. Nowhe was released on bail and the charges
were dropped because according to local media, their reports say that he was believed
to have mental health issues and hedidn't actually have anything other than what was

(33:30):
read in the paper. Okay,So I think quite conclusively we can discount
him because he didn't know anything aboutthe crime scene other than what was released
in the press. Okay, Iagree with that, yep, So here
we go again. In February twothousand and eight, police were alerted that
serial killer Levi Bellfield had confessed toa cellmate whilst on remand in prison,

(33:52):
that he had killed a young girlwhen he was just twelve years old.
He had been convicted of two murdersand attempted murder at the time he was
on Romont. The attacks had beencommitted between two thousand and three and two
thousand and four in the vicinity ofwhere Patsy was found, So we know
that he was a prolific user ofthe heath. Okay, he was said

(34:14):
to have been obsessed with the murderwhen it was when it occurred, and
he remained fascinated by this unsolved killing. Now friends of his have said he
talked about this killing because it wasrevealed that he had attended Felton Contrehensive School
at the same time as Patsy andthat they were known to each other.

(34:35):
Now some reports will say that hewas her childhood boyfriend. However, Patsy's
family told the press that they hadnot known that they had even known each
other. They her sister Nichola,said, we didn't know him. It
was a bit of a shock tous when we found out that they knew
each other and friends of hers toldus about it. This is horrendous,

(34:57):
obviously, that's what she's thinking.Now intoenty eleven, Bellfield was convicted of
the murder of another schoolgirl, MillieDowler. Now he had abducted and raped
her in two thousand and two.Bellfield would have been twelve years old at
the time of Patsy's murder, whichoccurred a year before. He received his
first conviction, which was burglary agedthirteen, So his first police conviction.

(35:24):
He was thirteen years old when hewas carrying out his first crime that he
got caught for. So it's notnecessarily the first crime he's ever committed,
but this was the first crime thathe got caught for, okay, and
he was thirteen years old. Nowwe also know that he repeatedly played truant
from school and was often known tofrequent Hounslow Heath when he should have been

(35:46):
at school, so we know thatit's his stomping ground. We know that
he had also committed murders, youknow, on hous O'heath. We know
that because he's been convicted of thoseand he's now in prison for the murders,
so we know that he knows thatarea very well. Former partners of
Levi Bellfield have said that he hada hatred of blonde women women, sorry,

(36:09):
and he targeted blonde women for hisattacks, which we also know to
be true. There has been speculationthat Patsy's death was the beginning of Bellfield's
violent obsession with blonde women. Okay, wow, so that's that's interesting.

(36:31):
M hmm. Okay. Now,the thing is with Levi Bellfield, okay,
is that he is one of thosepeople that loves to be in the
limelight. He is very egotistical,he's very arrogant, and we know already
that he has also he's also admittedto other crimes, and we talked to

(36:53):
Colin Sutton about it and he'll tellyou. Levi Belford has also said that
he's done other crimes that other peoplehave been arrested for. So after it
was revealed that Bellfield was being investigatedby police for George's daughter's murder, he
said he was certain that it wasa teenage boy who phoned him that time
and gave him the death threat.And he said it was a local man

(37:15):
because it was a local accent.Levi Bellfield is a local man. He
had a local accent. It's terrifyingto think that somebody of twelve or thirteen
could have done that. Now,Leva Bellford is a big man. If
you've ever seen him, he's Ithink he's like I think he's like six
foot odd. He's a big man. He's a broad man. He's a
very strong man. Now, Iwonder at the age of twelve. I

(37:37):
know some like fourteen and fifteen yearolds that are almost six foot tall,
that are big, that don't looklike they're early teens, you know,
So I wonder what was he likeas a teenager? Could this possibly be
that he did know her? Couldit possibly be that they did know each
other and that she was going tobe walking across the heath when he came

(37:59):
across her, which is his moo. We know that because we know
he's been put in prison for thatbefore. But I'm going to however,
you now like you do. Policelater established it at the time of the
incident, Levi Belfield was actually atthe Rectory in Hampton, and that he
had not moved to Felton Comprehensive untilafter Patsy's death. So they believe this

(38:21):
was another case of lee by LeviBelfield trying to attack attention to himself and
trying to take credit for more crimes. But just because he was in a
different school doesn't mean to say thathe wasn't on the on the heath at
that time playing truant because he wasstill living in that area, right,
Yeah, still in the area WestLondon. Yes, just at a different

(38:43):
school. So it's possible. SoI don't think that you can discount him
one hundred percent from this just becausehe went to a different school. We
know he plays truant from school.We know he's not he's not. He
doesn't abide by laws and rules atschool, so he knows the area.
This area has become a huge it'sa huge poll for him because of his

(39:04):
later you know, his later victims. And I one hundred percent believe that
there are more victims than what levthan what we know about, than the
than the girls we know about.Am I wrong in thinking that Levi Bellfield?
He I don't want to say huntedbust off, But there were victims,
yes, oh yeah, school girlsat bus stops. Yeah, yeah,

(39:27):
there's videos, there's like yeah,that's right, yeah, in his
white van. Okay, So againit's funny that you've got bus stop,
and it's funny that you've got LeviBellfield in with this as well. I
just think it's one of those thingsthat probably I think would be good to
re look at now with the fresheyes. Now, you know, knowing

(39:47):
what we know about him and knowingwhat we know about his m O,
I think it'll be interesting to followthat up. Hmmm. I mean,
I mean it it doesn't hurt,right, no, right. If you
prove wrong, then that's that's great, You've ruled another person out. But
I just just a nagging feeling.I think it would be good to look

(40:09):
into that with fresh eyes. Now. Yeah, I mean, it's scary
to think that someone twelve years ofage would be capable of doing that,
but there are people, There aredefinitely people out there that are right,
and I think Levy Bellfield is oneof those people that could be capable of

(40:30):
community young age. I mean,he's burgling places when he's thirteen. It's
a year before he's thirteen, youknow, so he's already got that criminal
like criminality in him. So isit beyond the realms of possibility that he
could have tried it on with thisgirl? She said no, and he's

(40:50):
lost his temper or she's kind ofstarted something started between them and then she
said no, and he's just,you know, lost it. We know
what kind of temporaries got. Weknow how cruel he is, We know
how vicious he is from the crimesthat he subsequently committed in later years.
So could this be that this wasone of the first times that he's Every

(41:15):
serial offender has to start somewhere,you know, there has to be the
first, the first case. Thefirst case might not necessarily be a murder,
but you know how things escalate upinto that. Could it be that
this unfortunately, could she have beenone of his first victims? That?
And why would he talk about atwelve year old girl on Hanslow Heath dyeing.

(41:38):
Why would he talk to a salemate about that? I mean,
this is a nineteen eighty murder.Why would he be bringing that up at
the time he was incarcerated on Remandwhy would you bring up something from nineteen
eighty if you didn't know anything aboutit, you know, why would you
admit to that? I mean,how would you know about that? You're
twelve years old? How would youknow that there was a girl that was

(41:59):
murdered there that you were talking aboutLuby Bellfield, who's a completely different,
different person. He's different from us, right, this could he could have
seen something in the newspaper about itand became and then or saw something on
the news and has been obsessed withit ever since. Like that might have
been It might not have been him, but that might have been the catolics.

(42:20):
Yeah, of course something the callous, Right, so he gets obsessed
with it and he's like, oh, I wonder what that's like, and
then yes, yeah, very true, snowballs from there. Very true.
I mean friends of his from schoolhave said that he was he was obsessed
with that murder, So you're veryright. He could have read about that,
and that could have been what sparkedhis you know, that could be
what sparked his interest in blondes.It could be he could have known that

(42:44):
girl, because I mean, you'renever going to forget if you go into
school with somebody who was brutally murderedwhen you were at school, You're not
going to forget that. As anadult, You're not going to forget that
story, are you. So couldit be that he's you know, he's
he's heard about it, and thenhe's just bragging that he was responsible.
Possibly I did that too. Yeah, look how evil I am. Yeah,

(43:07):
Look how bad ass I am.My first murder was at like twelve
years old, and he is likethat. He is a very arrogant,
very obnoxious person. So that alsowouldn't surprise me either. I mean,
sadly, the met Police had nofurther lines of investigation, and so they're
no longer actively investigating Pats's death andhaven't been for some time, and they

(43:28):
have said that unless new information comesto light, which of course they will
then reopen it, they won't now. I looked into which serial killers were
active because I wanted to see ifthere were any. I mean, obviously
we've got the Levi Bellfield connection,which I thought was the strongest out of
all the ones that they actually Imean they even there even was a point
where somebody tried to say that itcould have been Dennis Nilsen. But when

(43:51):
we don't, we know that itdoesn't fit Dennis Nilsen's mom at all,
and he was just active at thattime, you know, in London.
It wasn't as if he was inthe area. It wasn't as if she
you know, she's a teenage boyor something. We know that Dennis Nielsen,
it's not his m O and Idon't think he's got anything to do
with this whatsoever. But I didlook in to see if there was anybody
that was active at this time thatpossibly had some kind of similarity to this,

(44:15):
and the only one I could findwas the murders of Eve Stratford and
Lynn Weedon. Now, Eve Stratfordwas in March nineteen seventy five and Lynn
Whedon was September nineteen seventy five.Okay, so I think Eve was March
nineteen seventy five and Lynn was Septemberof nineteen seventy five. There were two

(44:37):
young women murdered in separate areas,but they were sexually motivated. They were
in London. Eve Stratford was abunny girl on a model and Lynn Wheden
was a schoolgirl and she was killedon the other side of London. Now,
Lynn Wheden's case was reopened in twothousand and four because new DNA techniques

(45:00):
feel that she and Eve had beenmurdered by the same person. Okay this.
Eve Stratford's case was then reopened intwo thousand and seven, but neither
case has been solved. But theyare very similar in m O to Patsy's
strangulation deaths, but those are sexuallyassaulted, which made me think, it's

(45:22):
only five years before Patsy's murder,okay, that this happened, that these
two ladies were successfully murdered. Okay, what if this was the murderer testing
out their technique and they were disturbedbefore they could sexually assault her because she

(45:43):
was on a heath Could it bethat this person attacked her, strangled her,
was going to sexually assault her,but was disturbed because there's a golf
course there, there's people playing golf. Could it be that that person was
actually disturbed before he had the chanceto do to her what he did to
lean An Evey's true. That's theonly other deaths of similar like a very

(46:09):
similar like mo O that I couldplace in the area within sort of like
a you know, a five toten year period. The only two I
could find that were very similar,and if hopefully I've done my research well
enough, but that was the onlytwo that I could find that were remotely
similar. I don't know, Ijust I just thinking about all of this.

(46:35):
I mean, I think Levi Bellfieldis interesting. Yeah, I do
too. I think the fact,I think the fact that he wasn't classmates
with her, that he went thereout that kind of you kind of have
to take a step back from thata little bit, like if it was
like, yeah, they were inthe same school together, they knew each
other, they hung out together,they were a girlfriend bought Okay, obviously

(47:00):
if that's the case. Yeah,yeah, I think you need to take
that very seriously. Yeah, Iagree. There something about this just to
me seems like a it was astranger attack, so someone that she didn't
know. Yeah, I keep Ikeep thinking about the description at the the

(47:23):
bus stop. Yeah. And Ithink you you said that that she was
seeing crouching, yes, right,Yeah, And so when I when I
picture crouching, I immediately think hiding, Like you're hiding from someone, right,
someone, There's someone that is followingyou, there's someone that you're you're

(47:44):
afraid of, that you are,you know, trying to make yourself small
so they don't see you. Yeah. So is it that she crossed the
heath, she came across someone whomade her uneasy. She tended to make
herself small and hide at the stationbus stop. Yeah, but they ended

(48:07):
up finding her. That's what itkind of sounds like to me. I
mean, I can obviously completely wrong, but there's just something about that which
is just I think I think thateyewitnessed is I think that's a that's a
very important piece of this way.I would like to speak. I'd like

(48:29):
to speak to that witness because andI'd like to see what the bus stop
look like, because back then itcould have been just literally like a lamppost
with the bus stop sign on it. So it could have been like that,
or it could have been one ofthose bus stops that have got a
roof on it, so it dependson It would be interesting to know what
the bus stop looked like that thatshe was allegedly seen at. And it
would also because sometimes some bus stopsback then didn't have like seats on them.

(48:53):
Nowadays, quite a lot of themhave like a rail that you can
sit down and wait for the bus. So I'm wondering, was she crouching
down because legs were tired and becauseshe was waiting for the bus and there's
nowhere to sit, So she's crouchingdown because she is waiting for a bus.
She means she's fourteen, So anadult wouldn't do that, but a
child probably would. So I'm wonderingwhether that was the case for me.

(49:16):
I I just have this feeling lookingat what we're looking at, I've got
a feeling she's left school with theroosts of I'm going to change my clothes
and possibly is then meeting someone,whether it's like a love interest or just
someone I think, and I thinkthings have gone a bit strange from there,

(49:37):
and either they've met on the heath, they say goodbye to each other.
On her way back, she's beenattacked by somebody, not necessarily the
person she was meeting. But I'vegot a feeling that there's a reason she
went on the heath. She knowsshe's not allowed to be there, she
knows that. I've got a feelingthat there's a reason she went to the
heath. I don't think this personhas like accosted her from the street and
dragged her onto the heath, becauseshe's quite a ways in. So there's

(49:59):
a reason she was on that heathfor whatever reason, you know. And
I just think someone's gonna I don'tthink someone's going to take the chance of
grabbing her and pulling. No,I don't would have happened. I think
where it happened is probably where shewas grabbed. Yeah, yeah, I

(50:20):
agree. I think I think therewas a reason she went on to the
heath. There's got to be areason she was up there. She knows
she's not allowed to be there.Everybody knows young girls shouldn't be walking across
the heath on their own. SoI think that she there's a reason that
she was on that heath, whetherthat's meeting somebody or whether that's just trying
to cross over to get to herdad quicker, whatever reason that is,

(50:43):
something has happened there and that's what'sthat's what's happened. But that's all we
know. So I would really likefor this case to be talked about more,
and I would really like the Iwould really like the connections between Levi
Bellfield severed or joined if we coulddo that, because I think that this
girl has still got family that youknow, she's still got siblings that I

(51:05):
wonder what happened to their sister,And that's a horrible thing to have to
deal with, to not know whereyour sister is, but also to know
that she met such a gruesome andawful end, And I really think that
they need people talking about this caseto get fresh ideas, fresh eyes on
it, because I think it's asolvable case. No, it's solvable depending

(51:29):
on what evidence has been kept kept, yes, and what can be tested.
I mean, I think this isone of the cases where it comes
down to is there any testable DNAavailable? Is there anything? Wouldn't that
be amazing if there is? Yeah, would be amazed. That's what one
of these cases are. I thinkit'd be very difficult to convict anyone without

(51:52):
DNA at this point. Oh,I agree, Yeah, I agree.
But even if the even if thefamily had a it's most likely that this
has happened, even though I understand, you know, you're not going to
get a conviction unless somebody confesses andthey can give you stuff that was at
the crime scene that you nobody else. Yeah. Yeah, that's the only
way that you're going to Yeah.And I think that it would be good

(52:15):
for the family at least to havesome kind of idea what happened to her,
because it's a horrible feeling to haveto agree for that person and have
that unanswered all this time. Butthat's this week's case for you. Well,
thank you very much. Hopefully peopleout there start talking about it,
and yeah, hopefully you can getsolved sometime soon. I think it's been

(52:37):
long enough. Yeah, definitely.So at the end of every show,
as you know, regulars listening in, we like to lighten the mood a
little bit and we like to dosomething that we call effectively effective effectively no
affectionately dumb criminal, Hey criminal,use a drummy, all right, Sherry,

(52:58):
So this week we definitely have adummy. Okay. There are people
out there that I think take McDonald'sHappy Meal toys a little too seriously.
Okay, this is one of thosecases. So a man at a McDonald's
Nova Scotia was quite unhappy recently whenhe was given a donkey in his Happy

(53:22):
Meal instead of a pack of PokemonMen cars as expecting. Oh okay,
so he was not happy about gettingdonkey, especially since this was the second
time in a row that he gota donkey and not the Pokemon cards.
Okay. So the man believed thatthe store has still had a whole rack

(53:44):
of Pokemon cars that they were hiding, and he pointed to a display that
was used for the promotion, demandingthat he'd be given some of the cards
or a refund for the happy meal. Oh come on. After claiming that
he had been given a donkey toytwo times in a row, the man
dressed like he was he's ready forhike. He threatened legal action against the

(54:06):
fast food restaurant. What now,obviously he's uh, it doesn't sound like
he's a bright bright ball, SoI don't know what legal action he would
have to uh to So when theyrefuse to give him Pokemon cards, he
started yelling that he wanted to presscharges on McDonald's. At that point,

(54:28):
a manager insisted that the customer leaveand that the that their location was simply
out of Pokemon cards. This mandecided to start using fists to show his
own happiness, and he began punchingthe manager in the face because the Pokemon

(54:49):
gods, he did not get Pokemoncards. Oh that's terrible, that's really
bad. So so while the sowhile this was happening, another customer or
happened to step up and he hehe basically went toe to toe with the
other customer and they had a fewrounds of fisticuffs. Over ridiculous Yeah.

(55:15):
So so this guy I wish Iknew his name, We don't. Unfortunately
we don't have his name. Butyeah, so Pokemon cards are not that
important, bro, No, they'rereally And why are you buying anyway?
You're an adult exactly. Especially youthink you're gonna get like a million dollar

(55:35):
Pokemon cards from McDonald's. No,man, no, it's not that big
a deal. So, yeah,going going to jail over a package Pokemon
cards, Garrison, it's not thesmartest thing. What did you do on
drobbery? What did you do onfine McDonald's over a Pokemon card? Pokemon
card? Oh, thank you verymuch. I don't think that. I

(55:59):
don't think there has been a McDonald'stoy in a happy meal that I've been
like excited about since I was abouteight years old. No, I don't.
I to be honest, I can'teven remember what the most exciting McDonald's
having meal toys I've ever got tobe honest, I don't. I can't
remember. None of them have beenthat special that I've been really that excited.

(56:19):
It's a bit crazy. You needto do like adult adult McDonald's once
where you get like little shots oflike alcohol or something. Something a bit
fun at least when you're an adult, you know, like an extra yeah,
the day off work or something youcan win, like we'll pay for
you to have the day off workor something like that. I mean we're
fighting over, you know, buta Pokemon card. Like you say,

(56:40):
you're not going to get million dollarsPokemon cards in a happy meal, So
why are you even trying, Likeseriously, that's crazy Pokemon cards. Thank
you. Oh well, that's itfor us for this week. We'll be
back next week with another episode fourYear. It's the last episode of the
year and it'll be Morgan's episode andwe will then see you in the new

(57:02):
year after that, So for now, be nice and bye.