Bronson

Episode Transcript
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Ashley (00:13):
Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, the show where we
take a look at some of yourfavorite movies and the true
crime stories that inspiredthem.
I'm Ashley.
I'm a clinical psychologist andforensic evaluator in the state
of Oregon.

Remi (00:27):
And I'm Remy.
I spent over a decade workingin the film and television
industry in Los Angeles,California.

Ashley (00:33):
Hello and welcome back, everyone.
Before we get started, we wantto say Happy New Year! I hope
everyone had a great holidayseason, a splendid New Year's
Eve celebrating with those thatyou hold dear.
And let's just say 2025 was notthe best year for the family.

(00:58):
So here's to hoping that 2026is a little bit better than
2025.
Remy, how are you doing today?

Remi (01:07):
I am doing okay, all things considered.
And yes, happy new year,everybody.
We are glad you can join us foranother year of analyzing true
crime films and figuring outwhat they got right and what
they got wrong.
And today we have a interestingcharacter that we will be

(01:29):
discussing, and he is a bit of afighter that goes by the name
of Charles Bronson.
But not that Charles Bronson.
The Charles Bronson youprobably are thinking of is a
film actor who is best known forplaying rugged, tough guy roles
in action and revenge films,including Death Wish 1, 2, 3, 4,

(01:51):
and 5 from 1974 to 1994.
No, that is not who we will bediscussing.
Ashley, who are we discussingthis week?

Ashley (02:01):
We are discussing Britain's most notoriously
violent prisoner, MichaelPeterson, aka Charles Bronson,
aka Charles Salvador, which Ibelieve is his current name.
Rummy, had you heard of CharlesBronson before this podcast?

Remi (02:19):
No, I had not heard of him at all, actually, until I saw
this film.
And I have since learned thatapparently he has garnered quite
the reputation as being themost violent prisoner in all of
Britain.

Ashley (02:34):
Yeah, and everything I read, spoiler alert, this guy is
serving life behind bars, butnot because he killed someone.
It is simply because of how outof control he was in prison.
And I must say, I read hisbiography, listened to a couple
YouTube interviews with him, andhe does stress that it is

(02:54):
unfair that he is spending lifein prison despite never killing
anyone.
But it's not for lack oftrying.
I have a lot of thoughts aboutthis guy, which I'm sure we're
gonna get into throughouttoday's episode.

Remi (03:07):
Yeah, while you were doing your research for this, there
were a couple of moments whereyou would pipe up and just say,
I can't stand this guy.
But we will get into thosereasons, of course, in just a
bit.
Now, this film stars one of themost successful actors of our
modern time, Mr.

(03:29):
Tom Hardy, a man who has doneincredible work in films like
Inception, The Dark KnightRises, Fury Road, and The
Revenant.
Do you have a favorite TomHardy film offhand, Ashley?

Ashley (03:42):
I would probably have to say Mad Max Fury Road, just
because I watched that on anairplane, which it should be
watched on a much, much biggerscreen.
But I kind of threw it onthinking, like, oh, I'm probably
not gonna like this.
And I loved it.
He is so good in it.
He's also great in The DarkKnight Rises as Bane.

(04:03):
Another role where his vocalrange is really in the forefront
of that character.

Remi (04:11):
And I, of course, totally agree with you.
Fury Road is amazing.
I am a diehard Batman fan, butThe Dark Knight Rises does not
hold a candle to Fury Road.
And you're also correct in thathe basically does a different
accent in just about everysingle role that he does.

(04:32):
And we have a littlecompilation of all of Tom
Hardy's accents right here.

Tom Hardy (04:38):
You need the simplest version of the idea in order
for it to grow naturally in yoursubject's mind.
That's a very subtle art.
Yeah, you know, I'm glad youstayed.
Everything worked out for you.
We got no way you understandthis world.
We got about as much sense as abird flying in the sky.
Let's not stand on ceremonyhere.
Eddie, it's your dad.
Is uh is your mother there?

(05:01):
From some poor young lord whoyou pumped full of opium in one
of your casinos.
Further examination of thevictim's body and witness
testimony saw multiplecontrusions.
At least that way, you know, wemight be able to come across
some kind of redemption.
Why?
Was he playing with this littleboy's mama?
Huh?
He'd kill her.
When you see him next, you tellhim for me, yeah, that I say,

(05:26):
fuck Charlie, and fuck hisbrother, and fuck that fat
Georgie Cornell that hangs outwith him.

Ashley (05:31):
He is quite the eccentric character, I must say.

Remi (05:34):
It is always risky when an actor decides to take on a
elaborate accent of some sortfor a role, but Hardy does not
shy away from it at all.
He basically does a differentwacky accent with every role
that he does.
And this film is no different,which our audience will hear

(05:55):
plenty of during my portionbecause he narrates the entire
film.
Now, this film is also directedby Nicholas Wending Reffen, who
is not really mainstream, buthas done a few movies which I
loved, like Drive and NeonDemon, but most of his movies
are usually very slow andextremely stylistic, so they're

(06:20):
definitely not for everyone.
But if anyone out there hasn'tseen any of his work, you should
go check out Ryan Gosling inDrive.
But enough about all that.
Ashley, are you ready to getdown and dirty with Tom Hardy as
Bronson?

Ashley (06:38):
I sure am.
Let's fight.

Bronson (06:41):
My name's Charles Bronson.
And all my life I've wanted tobe famous.

Remi (06:48):
Bronson is a 2008 British film directed by Nicholas
Wending Reffen, based on ascript written by Reffen and
Brock Normanbrock, starring TomHardy as Michael Peterson, aka
Charles Bronson.
British screenwriter andplaywright Brock Normanbrock was
the primary writer who createdthe original script for Bronson.

Ashley (07:12):
That is a choice for a name.

Remi (07:14):
Well, he had to include his middle name, otherwise his
name would literally be BrockBrock.
So my heart goes out to BrockBrock.
That is an unfortunate name.
The Bronson Project had beenfloating around for years,
passing through variousdifferent directors, including
British photographer directorRankin, who I've never heard of,

(07:37):
but he was actually the firstperson to approach Tom Hardy
about the role.
At that point, Hardy wasn't abig name yet, but he'd been
working steadily in Britishtelevision, and had small roles
in projects like Band ofBrothers and Star Trek Nemesis,
where he played PatrickStewart's Younger Clone.

Ashley (08:01):
Did you ever watch Band of Brothers?
I did not, but it is regardedas one of the best miniseries to
ever be made.

Remi (08:08):
I did.
It was a really, really longtime ago when I first got out of
high school.
I went through like a filmbinge period where I was just
absorbing all of the mostcritically acclaimed media that
I could find.
And Band of Brothers wasamongst that.
And it was a really, reallywell-made show, but from what I

(08:31):
recall, every single episode hada million different famous
actors in it, so it would bepretty hard for me to remember
Tom Hardy's role in this.
The person that sticks out forme the most in Band of Brothers
for whatever reason is DavidSchwimmer, who is only in the
first couple episodes, but he isgreat.

(08:51):
Eventually, Danish filmmakerNicholas Wending Reffen got a
call from his UK distributorasking if he'd be interested in
directing a film called Bronson.
After reading the script,Reffen thought it was pretty
average at best, referring to itas basically a lads movie, but

(09:11):
still saw promise in thematerial.
Though initially apprehensive,the producers explained that if
Reffin didn't agree to direct,that the project would basically
be dead, which convinced Reffinto accept the job.
Once Reffin had signed on, heended up completely rewriting
the majority of BrockNormanbrock's script to better

(09:35):
fit his own uniquely stylisticvision for the story, though
Norman Brock is still creditedas co-screenwriter alongside
Reffen.
Reffin initially looked atactors like Jason Statham and
Guy Pierce for the lead role,but none of those other options
ever panned out.

Ashley (09:54):
I could kind of see Jason Statham, I could not see
Guy Pierce.
That is so weird to me.

Remi (10:01):
I totally agree.
I don't think Guy Pierce wouldhave worked in this role at all,
but I do kind of think that ifStatham bulked up a bit, he
would weirdly fit this partperfectly.

Ashley (10:14):
Guy Pierce also seems too old.

Remi (10:16):
Well, this was back in 2008, but yeah, I think Guy
Pierce was already aged out ofthis part by then, anyway.
A few months later, Reffinfinally met with Tom Hardy
again, who had remainedinterested in Bronson since the
very beginning.
Reffin said that the moment helaid eyes on Hardy, he

(10:37):
immediately thought to himself,Oh my god, you're Charlie
Bronson.
Where have you been?
Hardy explains what initiallyattracted him to the project in
the following interview.

Tom Hardy (10:51):
What attracted me to the film, um, Charlie.
Nothing else, just Charlie, youknow.
I I don't care who wrote it, Idon't care who filmed it, I
don't care whether it was aplay, I don't care whether it
was um, you know, like TV, youknow, go for Channel 4 or BBC
film, and you know, with itwouldn't matter to me.
The only thing I'm interestedin playing is Charlie and
finding out about who Charlie isand you know what Charlie wants

(11:13):
done with his piece to the manand how I can case it to Charlie
without being, you know,Charlie's puppet.

Ashley (11:20):
It kind of sounds to me like he just wanted an excuse to
meet Charles Bronson.

Remi (11:25):
He really was 100% in on playing this character no matter
what.
And I also just got to commentreally quickly that he looks
like a baby in this interview.
He is very, very young.
Reffin himself was neverallowed to meet the real Charles
Bronson, since foreignfilmmakers are rarely granted

(11:46):
access to violent high securityinmates.
However, he was permitted tophone calls with Bronson, with
the line, It was absolutemadness at its very best, being
taken directly from the manhimself during one of those
calls.
Tom Hardy, on the other hand,was allowed much more direct

(12:07):
contact with the man he would beportraying, since Hardy is a
British-born citizen who had adocumented professional reason
to speak with Bronsonpersonally.
After being cleared, Hardyspent a lot of time speaking
with Bronson over the phone andearning his trust, before later
meeting him in prison to studyhis mannerisms.

(12:29):
During their first face-to-faceencounter, Bronson said that he
wasn't fully sold on the ideaof Hardy portraying him at
first.
But Hardy reassured Bronsonthat he would fix it.

Ashley (12:43):
I actually listened to a recording that Bronson made
about meeting Tom Hardy and justkind of his reaction to the
whole movie in general, and hetalks about this in it.
He says the reason he wasn'tfully sold at first is because
Tom Hardy was small when theyfirst met.
And Bronson was like, Look atme, I'm the strongest man alive.

(13:05):
You're a pipsqueak.
Yes, exactly.
And there wasn't a lot of timebefore filming was set to start,
so he just doubted whetherHardy could bulk up in time.
But during the second visit,apparently all of Bronson's
reservations were squashed.

Remi (13:25):
And you are 100% correct.
Hardy only had five weeksbefore filming began.
So he basically ate non-stop inorder to put on as much weight
as quickly as possible.

Ashley (13:38):
Bronson actually said in that recording that by the time
they met for the second time,Hardy had gotten more muscular
than Bronson was, which isinsanely impressive and kind of
scary that he was able to put onthat much weight so quickly.

Remi (13:54):
Hardy also worked hard to get Bronson's voice, body
language, and intensity right,so that his performance felt
like an honest portrayal insteadof an exaggerated caricature,
which I think would be very easyto do with this type of person.
Despite Hardy choosing not toadopt Bronson's habit of doing

(14:17):
2,500 push-ups a day into histraining regime, Hardy still
somehow managed to pack onenough pounds to win over
Bronson's approval.
In fact, Bronson was soimpressed by Hardy's
transformation that he literallyshaved off his own trademark
mustache and sent it to Hardy towear in the film.

(14:40):
Bronson later stated, Ihonestly believe nobody on the
planet could play me as Tom did.

Ashley (15:10):
What a mad respect.

Remi (15:14):
It is pretty impressive that Tom Hardy earned this
particular man's respect.

Ashley (15:28):
But this clip was taken before he even saw it.
It was like right after it cameout.

Remi (15:33):
Filming took place in and around St.
Anne's and Sherwood districtsof Nottingham, as well as
Worksop and Wellbeck Abbey inthe North Nottinghamshire.
All of those places soundextremely UK to me.
The entire film was also shotchronologically, which is rare,

(15:55):
though Hardy later said thatshooting everything in order
helped his performance evolvenaturally as the story unfolded.
Now, are you ready to get downto business and discuss Nicholas
Wending Reffens Bronson?

Ashley (16:13):
Yes, I'm ready for what I'm sure is gonna feel like a
fever dream of a movie.

Remi (16:19):
Them's foint words.
The film opens with Bronson,played by Tom Hardy, standing in

(16:39):
a spotlight on a stage,introducing himself to a full
theater, looking like aturn-of-the-century strongman,
bald, heavily built, andbarrel-chested, sporting a
classic curled handlebarmustache.
The scene then cuts to Bronsonnaked in a small grated cell

(17:00):
covered in black grease, pacingin circles like a boxer warming
up before a fight.

Ashley (17:06):
It was boot polish.

Remi (17:08):
That's what it was?
I had absolutely no idea whathe was supposed to be covered
in.

Ashley (17:13):
I only mention it one time, but he covers himself in
boot polish so many times.
I'm assuming to make him lookjust crazy and also more
difficult to get your hands onhim.
But each time he talked aboutrubbing boot polish on himself
in his memoir, I was just like,why is prison staff still giving

(17:33):
him this stuff?
Just make him wear dirty shoes.

Remi (17:36):
Yeah, do prisoners need boot polish?
It seems like Bronson wouldhave had that taken away at some
point.
But at least in the movie, hecovers himself in all sorts of
crazy grease and paint andthings like that.

Ashley (17:50):
Well, as we'll get to later, he does eventually get
that and pretty much everythingtaken away, but it takes a very
long time for that to happen.

Remi (18:00):
Well, seconds later, a team of guards in full riot gear
enter, launching Bronson intoan all-out attack taking on all
comers single-handedly, beforeinevitably succumbing to the
guard's brutal baton beatingsand sheer numbers.
As Bronson falls to the floor,we see a gleefully blood-soaked

(18:22):
smile etched across his face,seemingly reveling in the chaos
he's caused and positivelyloving every moment of it.
The film then flashes back toBronson's childhood, where we're
told through Bronson's ownnarration that he grew up in a
normal home with parents whowere perfectly ordinary.

(18:44):
At this point, he was stillusing his birth name of Michael
Peterson, though these days he,of course, is much more widely
known by his preferred fightingname of Charles Bronson, which I
will continue to refer to himas for the rest of my section
here.
As a teenager, Bronson beganregularly getting into

(19:07):
increasingly violent physicalaltercations with other students
and occasionally the teachersas well.
He eventually lands his firstjob working at a deli, which he
promptly robs before kissing aco-worker as soon as the boss
steps out.
Model employee here.
When the police come toBronson's home to confront him

(19:30):
about the theft, he responds byattacking both officers and
viciously biting them.
By 1974, he's gotten married toa woman named Irene living in a
small apartment with theirnewborn baby.
One day, Bronson robs a postoffice with a saw-off shotgun,
stealing roughly 41 pounds andsome change, resulting in a

(19:53):
seven year prison sentence.

Bronson (20:07):
I've always fancy Mons and always be a comedian.
Seven years.

Ashley (20:21):
What do you make of the director's choice of having him
in clown makeup at the beginningof this scene?

Remi (20:27):
He is wearing different styles of makeup throughout the
film.
There is a framing device inBronson, where Tom Hardy as
Bronson is sort of presentinghis story as a one-man show in a
theater in front of a audience.
And during various scenes, hewill be wearing clown makeup or

(20:49):
dressed in drag or even singing.
And honestly, I think it makesthe story way more visually
interesting and just morecreative.
I really, really, really digthe style of this film.
This director didn't have a lotof money to work with, and he

(21:09):
did a lot with a very, very lowbudget.

Ashley (21:13):
And just how this guy talks and presents himself, it
makes sense that it wasportrayed as a one-man circus,
really.

Remi (21:22):
He is a very unique character, and I think that
Reffin translated that visuallyonto the screen very
successfully, in my opinion.
During his prison stay, Bronsonrefuses to participate in
vocational training, and insteadtakes on five prison guards for
his insubordination, earninghim a stint in solitary

(21:46):
confinement.
This is not the last timeBronson will be in solitary
confinement.
Sometime later, while servingup a spot of Earl Grey during
prison tea time, Bronson meetsanother inmate named Paul
Daniels, played by MattSuperhans King, who casually
comments on Bronson's brutishphysique while giving off some

(22:09):
serious Andy Warhol factoryvibes in the process.
Inevitably, Bronson loses hischance at an early parole due to
him repeatedly assaulting theother inmates and officers, but
claims that he didn't mind sincehe found prison to be quite
quote unquote!

Bronson (22:30):
I liked it personally.
I thought that I loved it.
It was exciting, it was on theedge, it was madness at its very
best.
Problem is, once you getcomfortable, or sometimes even
before, they ghost you again andagain, moving you from prison
to prison.
And I fucking hate that.

(22:53):
Parkhurst, God bless thatplace.
The accommodation was more thanworthy of my royal self.
Yes, Parkhurst was cool cut.
Strouse?
Not my favorite place to visit,but the staff are ready to make
your stay as memorable aspossible.
Let alone how we love.

Ashley (23:20):
So fun fact, he mentions ghosting in there.
Remy, do you know what that is?

Remi (23:25):
It's not when you don't call someone back after a date.

Ashley (23:30):
Well, it is, but when it refers to prison transfers, it
is talking about when high-riskinmates are moved with no notice
to prevent them from settling,organizing, or retaliating.
So it's basically transferringthem from prison to prison so
they don't get too comfortable.

Remi (23:51):
Oh, so it wasn't due to his violent behavior?

Ashley (23:56):
I think for him it was a mix of things.
They didn't want him to get toocomfortable to risk riling up
other inmates, and it justbecame quickly apparent that no
facility could or wanted tocontain him.
He was out of control.

Remi (24:13):
Well, because prison authorities couldn't safely keep
Bronson in one place withoutendangering those around him,
prison authorities determinedthat his behavior could not be
managed within the normal prisonsystem, resulting in Bronson's
eventual transfer to RamptonPsychiatric Hospital, where he

(24:34):
is drugged and sedated intooblivion, rendering him as
harmless as marshmallow fruitsalad.

Ashley (24:41):
Yum.

Remi (24:42):
I was looking at her, like, you're not gonna say
anything?
I said marshmallow fruit salad.
That's like the weirdest food Icould reference here.
Despite being heavilytranquilized throughout his
stay, Bronson still somehowmanages to muster up enough
strength to strangle anotherpatient with a necktie, earning
him a one-way ticket toBroadmoor Asylum for the

(25:05):
criminally insane.

Ashley (25:07):
So he was transferred to Broadmoor in late 1979.
Remy, we have discussed in thispodcast another movie and
person who was at Broadmoor.
Do you remember who that was?

Remi (25:21):
I'm trying to think of another person in the UK that we
discussed, and I'm just comingup blank.
Who is it?

Ashley (25:28):
Anthony Blakeland from Savage Grace.

Remi (25:32):
That's why I couldn't remember it.
I blocked that movie out of mymind.
That's the worst movie we'veever discussed on this podcast.

Ashley (25:40):
He was actually at Broadmoor until June 1980, so
they overlapped by about sixmonths.

Remi (25:46):
One can only imagine if they happened to cross paths
during their stays there.

Ashley (25:52):
Bronson mentions a lot of people he met during his
incarceration in his memoir, butAnthony Blakeland is not one of
them.

Remi (26:02):
Well, we then cut to a musical performance from Bronson
wearing Ziggy Stardust stylemakeup, singing David Cassidy's
When I'm a Rock and Roll Star,while actual archival footage of
the real Bronson during theBroadmoor rooftop protests is
projected onto a screen directlybehind him.

(26:24):
Now I'm just gonna personallycomment on this.
I believe that this was filmedthis way due to financial
restraints, and honestly, thefirst time I saw this movie, I
had absolutely no idea what washappening, and I just thought it
was a weird artistic flourishthat they added to the film.

(26:45):
I did not understand that thefootage playing behind him was
of a real life incident.
Bronson later boasts that theincident caused tens of millions
of pounds in damages to thehospital's roof due to fire set
during the standoff, earning hima reputation as Britain's most

(27:07):
expensive prisoner.

Ashley (27:09):
In the book, he said the damage was 100k.

Remi (27:13):
According to Bronson, the system basically just got tired
of dealing with him at thispoint, so declared him legally
sane and released him after morethan a decade behind bars.
Now a free man again, Bronsonmoves back in with his parents,
but soon takes a train to Luttonto stay with his uncle Jack and

(27:36):
try to make a name for himself.
As it turns out, Bronson's oldprison pal, Paul Daniels, also
lives in Lutton, leading to apotentially lucrative business
partnership between the two men.
What sort of business, you ask?
Why, fighting business, ofcourse! But Mickey Peterson
ain't no name for a fighter, no,sir.

(27:58):
So old Mickey's gotta pick outa brand new name that sounds a
bit more intimidating.
Something like, oh I don'tknow, Charlton Heston.
Or better yet, Charles fuckingBronson.
Thus began Bronson's back alleybare-knuckle boxing career,

(28:19):
kicking things off with a bangin his very first fight by
beating his opponent senseless,then urinating on the poor
schlub as he lies incapacitated.
Though Bronson only earnsroughly 20 quid for his efforts,
he is reassured by Paul thatthere will be more to come as
his reputation continues togrow.

(28:40):
So Paul is basically hismanager slash booking agent
during all of this.

Ashley (28:47):
That's exactly who he was.
He was a promoter.

Remi (28:50):
For Bronson's next tussle, Paul arranges a two-on-one
fight, which Bronson winssingle-handedly.
He is later pitted against arabid Rottweiler at one point,
which Bronson also easilydecimates.

Ashley (29:06):
He said in his book this is one of the things he regrets
the most because he lovesanimals, but he got like 10k for
it.

Remi (29:14):
During this period, Bronson begins a sexual
relationship with a woman namedAlison, played by Juliet
Oldfield.
But he is disappointed when shetells him that she already has
a boyfriend named Brian whorides a motorbike.
Bronson responds by going to ajewelry store, assaulting the

(29:34):
manager, threatening the clerk,and stealing a $1,300 wedding
ring.
He then returns to Allison'sand proposes, which ultimately
ends in heartbreak when shedeclines by bluntly stating that
he has no ambition.
Plus, she and Brian are alreadyengaged.

(29:55):
Bronson is soon arrested andreincarcerated for the whole
jewelry store incident just 69days after his initial release.
Back behind bars, Bronson takesa prison librarian hostage in
his cell for seemingly noapparent reason, leading to the

(30:16):
following conversation betweenBronson and the prison governor
played by Johnny Phillips.

Ashley (30:22):
And quickly, prison governor is basically like a
warden, the person in charge ofeach prison.

Tom Hardy (30:38):
There's nothing wrong with my hearing, you can't.
What is it, Charlie?

Bronson (30:44):
What is it, Charlie?
Well, Andy.
What do you want?

(31:18):
What have you got?

Ashley (31:24):
And Andy Love is the real name of this first prison
hostage.
And I say first because poor,poor Mr.
Love is not the last.

Remi (31:33):
And I just love the actor's reaction on his face
after Bronson hangs up with thewarden.
He has a look just like, oh no,now I'm stuck alone in a cell
with this crazy man.

Ashley (31:49):
Also, just like an interesting side note,
throughout this hostagesituation and the several others
that happened throughoutBronson's incarceration, the
authorities are more thanwilling to negotiate with him.
When I was applying for aninternship with the federal
prison system, there was a wholetraining.
When I was applying, thishappened.

(32:11):
There was a whole onlinetraining that was all about if
you're taking hostage, sucks tobe you.
We ain't doing nothing.

Remi (32:19):
So they will not negotiate with inmates.

Ashley (32:23):
No, they sure will not.

Remi (32:25):
After waiting for the guards to arrive, Bronson strips
naked, lathers himself up inGreece, and proceeds to take on
any and all officers who enterhis cell.
He is, of course, eventuallyrestrained and ends up bloodied,
gagged, and in a straitjacket,locked away in solitary

(32:45):
confinement yet again.
Later, Bronson takes part in aprison art therapy class and
begins drawing violent cartoonsas an alternative outlet for his
aggression, eventually gaininghim a small reputation as a bit
of an artist.
His cousin Lorraine even sendshim art supplies as a sign of

(33:07):
encouragement, and for a shortwhile things actually seem to be
improving.
This all changes, however, whenBronson offers one of his
paintings to the prison governoras a sort of peace offering,
only for the governor tocompletely disregard Bronson's
work directly in front of him.

(33:29):
In response, the next timeBronson is alone with his art
instructor, he attacks him,renders him unconscious, and
ties him to a pillar gagged witha Granny Smith apple.
He then paints the instructor'sface to resemble his own, and
demands that music be playedthroughout the standoff.

(33:50):
Bronson is naturally totallynaked and covered head to toe in
black body paint throughoutthis entire ordeal, wearing
nothing but a derby hat and apair of circular sunglasses.
After placing the hat andsunglasses on the instructor,
Bronson yells for the officersoutside to come on in, leading

(34:13):
to another all-out brawl betweenBronson and multiple prison
guards, as the classical musiccrescendos, and he is inevitably
subdued.
The film ends with a title cardreading.
He has spent 34 years in jail,30 of them in solitary
confinement.

(34:33):
He has not yet been granted arelease date.
The final chilling image is ofBronson beaten to a bloody pulp,
babbling incoherently,restrained inside a solitary
cage so claustrophobically smallthat he is unable to even sit
or move, as he desperately gaspsfor breath in total isolation.

(34:56):
And that was Nicholas WendingReffens Bronson.
Any initial reactions, Ashley?

Ashley (35:05):
So the cage he ends up being put in is 12 by 6.
So he can sit, he can move, hecan lay.
It is total isolation, but it'snot as suffocating as this
scene would lead you to believe.

Remi (35:20):
This image is like burned into my brain.
Just this bloody beaten mantrapped inside the smallest cage
imaginable.
It's just really, really animpactful image.
So it's not surprising that hewas kept in a realistic cage as
opposed to one you're not ableto sit down in and has

(35:43):
absolutely no amenities.

Ashley (35:46):
I think it's probably more of a metaphor to what years
of isolation and segregationcan result in.
There is ample research outthere in the mental health field
about how prolonged segregationhas disastrous effects on
people's physical health, butalso their mental health and

(36:08):
emotional stability.
It is something that can breakeven the strongest person, much
less any sort of individual whohas any sort of mental health
struggles already.
People are not meant to be keptalone in the dark without any
sort of human contact.
It will damage you.

(36:29):
So, Remy, you had said you'dseen this movie before.
Did you have any sort ofreaction to it or thoughts
during the rewatch?

Remi (36:37):
I still really like this film, and I think Tom Hardy's
performance is amazing, and Ireally dig the ultra-stylistic
vibe that the director broughtto it.
And honestly, it's not really avery interesting story.
It's a guy who's in prison forfighting.

(36:58):
But I think that Hardy andReffin managed to turn the story
into something much moreartistic, and as a result, much
more interesting than the sourcematerial.

Ashley (37:12):
And Hardy does resemble this man the closest he can,
with his build, bald head,mustache, and the glasses he
wears.
That's all physical aspects ofCharles Bronson that really set
him apart from all others.

Remi (37:28):
Well, let's dive into the release of Bronson.
Bronson took about four yearsfrom its initial conception
before the cameras finallyrolled.
But once principal photographybegan in February of 2008,
things moved fairly quickly,with the film having its

(37:48):
official premiere at the LondonFilm Festival just eight months
later.

Ashley (37:55):
It does seem from the scenes you showed me that much
of this, I'm assuming, was shoton lots.
There isn't a lot going on inthe background.

Remi (38:06):
No, it's all in the visuals.
There's not a lot of storygoing on here, but the visuals
are so captivating, it keeps youinterested the entire time.
And it's only a 90-minute filmas well, which p helps.
The premiere of Bronson openedwith a recorded message from
Bronson himself, taped insideHMP Wakefield, stating, I'm

(38:32):
proud of this film, because if Idrop dead tonight, then I live
on.
I really was a horrible,violent, nasty man.
I'm not proud of it, but I'mnot ashamed either.
See you all at the Oscars.

Ashley (38:48):
That's some wishful thinking, dude.

Remi (38:50):
Well, the problem is that it's illegal in the UK to make
unauthorized recordings ofprison inmates, which led to the
British Prison OfficersAssociation filing a complaint
against the film, which had thissection removed, though
Bronson's message was stillincluded on some very early DVD

(39:11):
editions.
I was not able to locate it,unfortunately.
Bronson went on to have alimited release in the UK on
March 13, 2009, and later in theUS on October 9th of that same
year.
The film currently has a 75%approval rating on Rotten

(39:32):
Tomatoes based on 79 reviewswith a critical consensus that
reads, undeniably gripping,Bronson forces the viewer to
make some hard decisions aboutwhere the line between art and
exploitation lies.

Ashley (39:48):
So I actually have a question.

Remi (39:56):
Without a doubt, this film deserved a cinematography
nomination at the very least.
But I also think that Hardy'sperformance.
Was deserving.
He is incredible in this role.
But the style of this film isreally what stands out the most.
So if it was gonna be awardedwith anything, I think that is

(40:20):
the category that it would bebest in.

Ashley (40:23):
Okay, well, for best cinematography, the nominations
were Harry Potter and theHalf-Blood Prince, The Hurt
Locker, and Glorious Bastards,White Ribbon, and Avatar won.
So I can definitely see Bronsonin there.
Maybe like the Hurt Locker.
I don't remember that beingextra beautiful.
I know it won Best Picture thatyear.

(40:45):
But Avatar, that's kind of aunbeatable cinematography.

Remi (40:49):
No offense, but Ditch White Ribbon.
Has anyone heard of WhiteRibbon?
Bronson should be in that spot.

Ashley (40:56):
And for Best Actor, the nominees are George Clooney, Up
in the Air, Colin Firth, asingle man, never seen, Morgan
Freeman Invictus, and JeremyRenner, The Hurt Locker.
The winner was Jeff BridgesCrazy Heart.

Remi (41:12):
Personally speaking, I think Tom Hardy's performance is
better than Jeff Bridges'performance in Crazy Heart.
Jeff Bridges is amazing inCrazy Heart, but he's kind of
playing a similar character thathe's played a few other times,
just more realistically.
I think Hardy was able to crafta really, really unique

(41:35):
character here from meetingBronson in person, and he nailed
the depiction when he was onscreen.
In my opinion, of course.

Ashley (41:46):
Well, that was a fun little exercise.
I think in future episodesmoving forward, time permitting
in a movie like this, where itwasn't really nominated for
anything, it's just kind of funto think what could have or
should have been.

Remi (41:58):
Have you ever heard of Elijandro Jordowski?

Ashley (42:02):
Definitely not.

Remi (42:04):
He is a very surreal filmmaker who almost directed
Dune several years ago, andthere is a documentary called
Jordowski's Dune, which I highlyrecommend.
And it would have been crazy,it almost had Salvador Dolly,
Mick Jagger.
It was gonna be a crazy film,but he wanted it to be like nine

(42:27):
hours long.
But him and Nicholas Reffen areclose friends, and he often
dedicates his films to him.
And for Bronson, Jordowski saidthat he had a spiritual orgasm
when he first watched it andcalled it incredibly artistic.

Ashley (42:47):
Based on the scenes you showed me, it is an artistic
movie.
I don't think I had a spiritualorgasm from them, though.
But to each their own.

Remi (42:57):
Reffen and Jordowski actually met by chance in a
bookstore where Jordowski saw aposter for Bronson and asked
Reffen what it was about.
The two became friends, andJordowski eventually presented
Valhalla Ryzen, which wasReffin's follow-up film, on
Reffen's behalf.

(43:18):
So, alright, I have a questionfor you, Ashley.
If you were to just guess, shotin the dark here, how much
would you think that this filmcost to make?

Ashley (43:30):
Based on the fact that Tom Hardy was a relative unknown
at the time.
There wasn't a lot of set thatneeded to be produced.
It was really just Tom Hardytaking the screen by storm.
I would have guessed in 2008,at least half a mil, maybe up to
one.

Remi (43:50):
I would have guessed around five million because
usually movies cost a fewmillion to make in general.
But this one only cost 230,000to make, which is insanely cheap
for a movie that looks thisgood.
Well, on this modest budget,the film went on to earn more

(44:12):
than $2.2 million in theatersduring its extremely limited
release.
The real Charlie Bronson wasn'tallowed to see the film at
first, but said that as long ashis mother liked it, he was
certain that he would too.
And according to Reffin's DVDcommentary, Bronson's mother

(44:34):
absolutely loved it.

Ashley (44:36):
Through all of this, it really is heartbreaking how
supportive his family is of him.
They try to write letters andreally be his grounding force
throughout his entire life,despite him doing things that
are not only sabotaging hischance at freedom, but it's
harming your family becausewhenever someone acts out in

(44:58):
prison, their privileges arerestricted.
So there are several timeswhere his family are showing up
in visits, but they can't seehim because he's in segregation
for punching someone earlier, orhis calls are restricted, or
he's doing things and it istearing his family apart.

Remi (45:16):
And if I were to add something to this film, it would
be more of that family aspect.
The mom and dad are kind ofintroduced at the very beginning
through montage, and thenthey're just kind of pushed to
the side and we don't see themagain.
And I think something like thatwould be very valuable in

(45:37):
presenting that other peoplecare about him on the outside
and what he is doing is actuallyaffecting more than himself.

Ashley (45:45):
Yeah, there were his parents, his cousin Lorraine,
which he described as really hisbest friend, several aunts and
uncles, grandparents, even closefriends that really tried to
stay in touch with him.
This guy was being moved at amoment's notice all across the
UK, and no matter where he was,people still tried to visit him,

(46:07):
which is remarkable.

Remi (46:10):
Well, the real Bronson was finally granted permission to
view the film on November 15th,2011.
After the screening, Bronsonpraised the film as theatrical,
creative, and brilliant, thoughhe did disagree with a few
aspects, such as the distanceshown between him and his

(46:33):
father, and the portrayal offormer prisoner Paul Edmonds.
Bronson also pushed backagainst the idea that he enjoyed
prison life, saying that heactually despises it and has
suffered serious physical andmental trauma from being
incarcerated.

Ashley (46:52):
I was actually surprised from that scene because
throughout his book, from thebeginning, he is basically
saying, I am acting this waybecause I am retaliating against
the system.
I don't think there was at anypoint based on his
autobiography, so again, it'scoming from Bronson's words, but
what I will say is this mandoesn't shy away from

(47:15):
highlighting moments in his lifethat most people would be
incredibly ashamed to admit theydid.
So I do think he portrays thegood and bad aspects of himself.
But again, at no point did hesay, I'm enjoying prison, I'm
enjoying how I'm acting.
It really comes across assomething that he's like, I

(47:38):
don't know why I'm doing this,I'm just so angry.

Remi (47:43):
Well, despite these critiques, Bronson was extremely
impressed with Hardy'sperformance, stating, If I were
to die in jail, at least I liveon through Britain's number one
actor.
As it turned out, Bronson wasspot-on in his assessment of
Hardy's acting chops, becauseafter Bronson, Tom Hardy's

(48:06):
career blew up, with hisperformance putting him squarely
on Hollywood's radar andplaying a big part in
Christopher Nolan casting him inInception, which eventually led
to him playing Bain in The DarkKnight Rises, firmly
establishing Hardy as one of themost versatile actors of his

(48:27):
generation.
Nicholas Wending Reffen went onto direct Valhalla Rising in
2009, a highly stylizedViking-era film starring Mads
Mikkelsen as a mute enslavedwarrior named One Eye, traveling
with a young boy through aviolent mythical landscape.

(48:47):
Though the film went on to earncritical acclaim for its
starkly bold visuals, it wasn'ta commercial excess, grossing
only around $731,000 worldwide,against a production budget of
$5.7 million.
Despite Valhalla Rising'slackluster performance, Reffen's

(49:11):
reputation for uniquely visualstorytelling continued to grow,
leading to, I'm just Ken's RyanGosling personally approaching
Reffen to direct his next film,Drive.
Reffen accepted the job becauseit gave him a chance to bring
his own aesthetic to a moremainstream story.

(49:31):
Drive went on to becomeReffen's most successful film to
date, earning over $81 millionworldwide on a $15 million
budget.

Ashley (49:43):
I love Ryan Gosling, but I did not like Drive.

Remi (49:46):
I did not like it the first time I saw it.
I've grown to appreciate it.
I think the opening scene isphenomenal, but it is a slow
burn, just like most of thisdirector's other material.

Ashley (50:03):
I just like Baby Driver so much better.

Remi (50:06):
Gosling and Reffen continued working together for
their follow-up film, Only GodForgives, about a drug-smuggling
American in Bangkok who'sforced into a violent showdown
when his ruthless mother demandshe avenge his brother's death.
A behind-the-scenes documentarytitled My Life, directed by

(50:27):
Nicholas Wending Reffen, made byReffin's wife, Liv Corfixon,
follows their family during theproduction of Only God Forgives
in Bangkok, and shows Reffinwrestling with the creative
pressure, anxiety, andself-doubt following the massive
success of Drive, and is abrilliant glimpse inside the

(50:48):
challenges and turmoil of Autourfilmmaking.
And I highly recommend it toany film students out there.

Ashley (50:57):
I'm kind of surprised that Gosling and Ruffin did
these two movies and then neverworked together again.
You think they could have goneon to become a dynamic duo of
sorts.

Remi (51:10):
Only God Forgives was a massive failure.
So I think that's what put astop to their working
relationship.
I'm pretty sure Gosling's agentor manager said, no more refin
films.
I personally really like OnlyGod Forgives, but again, I will
say it is definitely not foreveryone.

Ashley (51:32):
Well, and I think this is a time in Ryan Gosling's
career when he was trying toplay these really deep, dark,
gritty roles.
And then after this, I mean hestill does it with Blue
Valentine and the place beyondthe pines, but then he does kind
of start branching out intomore comedic chops.

Remi (51:50):
And I also just have to comment that his character in
Drive and Only God Forgivesprobably has about maybe 50
words of dialogue total.

Ashley (52:03):
And zero personality.

Remi (52:05):
Gosling is good in these films, but it's not really
showcasing any of his actingabilities.
He's basically a visual prop inthese films.
But that is Nicholas WendingReffin's Bronson, a tale of a
burly, brutish prisoner?
But that is just the cinematicversion.

(52:27):
Ashley, do you want to tell meand our audience the gritty,
graphic, real story of Bronson?

Ashley (52:36):
I would try to do an accent, but I'm so bad at them,
so I'm not even gonna try.
Let's do it.
He was a quiet, introverted,well-mannered boy who grew up in

(53:19):
a close-knit working-classfamily.

Remi (53:22):
Introverted, you say?
That is not what I would haveused to describe this man having
watched the film.

Ashley (53:29):
He was the middle of three sons, raised by Ira and
John Peterson.
His older brother, also namedJohn, was 19 months ahead of
him, and his younger brotherMark arrived seven years later.
As a child, Peterson had a deepfondness for animals.
Alongside the family's boxersand birds, he kept frogs and

(53:51):
mice in the garden shed,charging neighborhood kids a few
pennies to peek at hismakeshift zoo.
By all accounts, his childhoodwas happy and stable.
His parents worked hard andmade sure their boys always had
something to look forward to.
Sunday outings, holidays at thecoast, and a week at grandma's
every summer.
His favorite hobbies weresimple and wholesome.

(54:13):
Fishing and playing chess orcards with his dad and grandpa.
Despite all this structure andsupport, Michael Peterson
started to change when hisfamily moved to Ellesmere Port
in Cheshire.
By the age of 13, he fell inwith a group of boys who spent
their days skipping school andweekends stealing from local

(54:34):
shops.
Their crimes weren'tsophisticated, mostly petty
theft from kids who were bored,restless, and hungry for
excitement, but they were enoughto land him in juvenile court
once or twice.
Peterson later claimed thataround this time he experienced
his first urge to kill.
Not aimed at anyone inparticular, just the idea of it.

(54:57):
One day, this impulse becametoo great to ignore.
He recalled standing by a treenear his house while holding a
milk bottle and waiting for astranger to walk by.
When no one appeared, hesmashed the bottle over his head
in frustration.
At school, his growing violenceresulted in repeated expulsions

(55:17):
for fighting.
He dropped out at age 15 andgot his first job at a
supermarket.
He only lasted two weeks beforehe was fired for assaulting a
manager who chastised him infront of customers.

Remi (55:30):
So, Ashley, I have to ask, you are a psychologist.
What would you attribute thisdrastic change in his behavior
to?
Because it seems like he wasjust a normal kid who was
enjoying fishing and had twoordinary parents, but he fell
into the wrong group and thensuddenly wanted to kill so badly

(55:54):
that he smashed a milk bottleover his head because he was mad
that he couldn't?

Ashley (56:00):
You know, I really don't know.
From what I read in the book,there is nothing that has
happened in his childhood thatwould make him be so angry.
The only thing he kind of citesaround this time is that his
brother actually went away tothe military at this time to
finish up his schooling inmilitary school, and he didn't

(56:21):
realize how close he was to hisbrother until he was gone, and
he just kind of felt alone.
So I don't know if it's amixture of that.
He's torn out of an environmenthe knew and is forced to make
new friends, and it was hard forhim.
It's really kind of bizarre.

Remi (56:38):
I can understand being a teenager and getting into fights
and things like that, but hislevel of just aggression and
violence is kind of out of leftfield.

Ashley (56:51):
A lot of times when things like this happen, it's
because when you're a kid or anadolescent, you don't have the
words to verbally express yourpain.
And so it is presented in moreexternal ways.
So that's really the onlyexplanation I can think of.
He didn't know what to say todescribe how he was feeling.

(57:14):
He didn't even know what he wasfeeling, and so he was just
acting out to get out hisfrustration.

Remi (57:21):
So you're saying he was having temper tantrums?

Ashley (57:24):
It's a little more than temper tantrums because he
literally was waiting by a treeto try to severely hurt someone.
In the years that followed,Peterson drifted through a
series of odd jobs, mostly atfactories or bricklaying.
The wages were decent, but histemper meant nothing lasted
long.
By age 16, his free timerevolved around fighting,

(57:48):
drinking, and experimenting withprescription pills.
He was repeatedly arrested forlow-level crimes, criminal
mischief, theft, drivingviolations.
But each time he escaped withfines, probation, or suspended
sentences.

Remi (58:03):
I mean, these are like minor infractions.

Ashley (58:06):
The only big one was a hit and run where the other
driver was in critical conditionfor a while.
He did end up surviving, andPeterson had his license
suspended and had to pay finesfor the rest of his life to
handle the man's hospital finesand psychological damages.
Peterson made a brief attemptat straightening his life out in

(58:29):
1971 when he met Irene Kelsey.
The relationship moved quickly.
Within a year, they weremarried and welcomed a baby boy,
also named Michael Peterson.
He took a job working at hisfather's painting company, but
secretly continued his life ofpetty crime and clubbing.
This was his life for the nexttwo years.

(58:51):
Shortly after the death of hisgrandfather, 21-year-old
Peterson, armed with a replicapistol and sawed-off shotgun,
robbed a post office, garage,and tutor mansion all in one
week.
In 1974, he pled guilty toarmed robbery and was sentenced
to seven years in prison.

Remi (59:11):
So he was like on a crime spree for a week, basically.

Ashley (59:15):
Peterson's first major stretch behind bars began at
Walton Jail, where it quicklybecame clear he was incapable of
coping with the structure ofcustody.
Violence became his releasevalve.
Six months in, after whatshould have been a grounding
visit from his wife and son, hesnapped and attacked another
inmate out of pure frustrationand immediately felt better

(59:39):
after.
In this windowless, barrencell, his rage only grew.
His behavioral patternsolidified with each passing
transfer.
Whether it be a small slight ora mundane order, anything could

(01:00:01):
trigger an explosive assault orproperty destruction.
He was routinely stripped,bound in body belts, drugged,
and left for weeks in isolation.
Each outburst or escape attemptadded months to a sentence.
His behavior snowballed intosomething no jail could or
wanted to manage.

(01:00:23):
Meanwhile, his family life alsocrumbled.
Visits from his wife and songrew infrequent and eventually
stopped altogether when he wasserved divorce papers in 1976.
At Armley Jail, Peterson beganthe intense fitness regimen he
would later become known for.
Endless press-ups, sit-ups,squats, and shadow boxing.

(01:00:46):
But physical discipline didnothing to temper his
aggression.

Remi (01:00:50):
I actually just watched a video this morning on Mike Tyson
and his training regime whilehe was incarcerated.
And it is astonishing what aperson can do physically with
nothing but endless time ontheir hands.

Ashley (01:01:08):
And unfortunately, physical discipline did nothing
to temper Peterson's aggression.
He was confined to thepunishment block for his entire
stay because he was consideredtoo dangerous.

Remi (01:01:19):
Is the punishment block like solitary confinement or is
it just a more secure area ofthe prison?

Ashley (01:01:25):
This guy spends most of his time in solitary.
He was allowed one shower aweek and one letter home.
Yet he still foundopportunities to assault others
and concoct escape plots, whichinevitably led to more transfers
and time behind bars.
Over the next two years,Peterson was shuffled endlessly

(01:01:48):
between prisons.
During each move, he wastransported in body belts and
cuffs, sometimes naked,sometimes strapped in
wheelchairs, and always in thepresence of many, many officers.

Remi (01:02:10):
He did like to be naked a lot.

Ashley (01:02:12):
Wherever he landed, he typically remained in
disciplinary units due tononstop defiance, refusing
orders, assaulting inmates andstaff, destroying property.
Even when he briefly managed toavoid physical confrontations,
he still found ways to inflictharm.
For example, after clashingwith another inmate, he crushed

(01:02:36):
glass into dust and mixed itinto the man's sugar.
Days later, the inmate beganpissing blood.
This is one example when hesays, I never killed anyone.
I shouldn't be in prison forlife.
True, but like you tried, dude.
You tried real hard several,several, several times.
And the psychological damagethat this man inflicted upon so,

(01:03:00):
so, so many people can be justas damaging.

Remi (01:03:05):
Yeah, it's kind of hard for me to buy that he wasn't
trying to kill this man, whom hewas putting crushed glass in
his sugar.

Ashley (01:03:15):
He did that because he wanted to poison the guy and
couldn't, so this was his planB.

Remi (01:03:20):
That is so much worse.

Ashley (01:03:22):
In 1976, Peterson was sent to Parkhurst, one of
Britain's most notoriousprisons.
For a short time, he managed tostay out of trouble, until a
confrontation with a guard endedwith him spitting in the
officer's eyes and threateningto kill him.
After being transferred yetagain, he was caught preparing
an elaborate escape attempt,complete with a rope and

(01:03:45):
makeshift grappling hook.
He also attacked anotherinmate, leaving him permanently
disfigured.
More time added to hissentence.
After his grandparent died,grief was layered over years of

(01:04:08):
isolation, depression,irritability, and paranoia.
By the late 1970s, followingbrief stints back at Walton and
Parkhurst, the only placeswilling to house him at the
time, neurologists diagnosed himwith epilepsy and hysteria,
while a forensic psychiatristlabeled him a psychopath.

Remi (01:04:28):
Do you think Bronson is a psychopath?

Ashley (01:04:31):
So that's kind of a loaded question because
psychopathy isn't actually adiagnosable mental illness in
the DSM, which is the bookpsychiatrists and psychologists,
at least in the United States,use, but he definitely has
antisocial personality disorder.
This man shows a recklessdisregard for the rules, the

(01:04:54):
laws, the rights of himself andothers.

Remi (01:04:58):
But he does seem to know that what he is doing is wrong.

Ashley (01:05:03):
Something that annoyed me as I was reading the book is
he would do these things and sayhe knows they're wrong while
also saying, like, I don't knowwhy I'm doing this.
And from my reading of it, he'strying to garnish some sympathy
from the reader, but at thesame time, I'm like, dude, you

(01:05:23):
had ample opportunities to dosome serious, serious
self-reflection and insightbuilding.
And it just seems that hedidn't.
And in 1978, the violencesurged yet again.
At Parkhurst, he committedback-to-back assaults, first
smashing an inmate with a jamjar, then slashing another weeks

(01:05:46):
later.
The court tried a new methodwhen he was seen for yet another
violent charge.
Under the Mental Health Act, hewas certified insane and
ordered to Rampton SecureHospital until doctors deemed
him no longer a danger.

Remi (01:06:03):
I mean, he was being a danger to himself and others at
this point.
So do you think he fits thiscriteria?

Ashley (01:06:12):
So it depends.
He clearly is a danger tohimself and others, but from
what I've seen and read, it'snot due to a serious and
persistent mental illness.
It's due to personalitypathology.

Remi (01:06:26):
Like a severe antisocial personality disorder.

Ashley (01:06:30):
Exactly.
Which lay people do see that asinsane because a person's
behavior doesn't make sense.
But in the end, these arevolitional choices he's making.

Remi (01:06:43):
He knows the difference between right and wrong.
That is the difference betweensane and insane.

Ashley (01:06:50):
Peterson's transfer to Rampton in December 1978 was
supposed to mark the beginningof treatment, but instead it
became another environment hetore apart.
He arrived fighting and wasstripped, plunged into a cold
bath, and left naked in a cell.
Even forced medicationscouldn't stop the violence

(01:07:11):
directed towards staff and otherpatients.
By late 1979, Rampton hadenough.
Peterson was transferred toBroadmoor, where he remained for
the next five years.
Broadmore housed some ofBritain's most dangerous and
acutely ill offenders.
Despite a strong chemicalcocktail, he mustered up the

(01:07:33):
strength to stab a patient inthe eye with a lit cigarette and
tried to get his hands on aknife.
When staff eventually took himoff the drugs, he quickly
returned to physical trainingand escape planning.

Remi (01:07:46):
Why did they take him off the drugs?

Ashley (01:07:49):
The drugs they were giving him were just to subdue
his behavior.
He didn't have psychosis.
He didn't have depression.
So it's just kind of like,what's the point of giving this
guy things other than chemicalsedation?

Remi (01:08:03):
And he was still able to fight his way through that and
keep hurting people.

Ashley (01:08:09):
Bradmore is also where his fixation with rooftops
began.
He spent months examining theexercise yard before he made his
move.
Once on the roof, he tore outpipes, windows, and wiring,
causing the facility to shut offthe electricity and water.
Staff eventually coaxed himdown, but his mind was set.

(01:08:31):
When he got back onto the roof,he stayed there for three days,
surviving on pigeons, eggs andmoss from the gutter.

Remi (01:08:40):
Pigeons, eggs, and moss?
That might be the craziest dietI've ever heard.

Ashley (01:08:47):
His father and brother were finally able to get him
down after they told him theordeal was making his mother
ill.
Oddly, Broadmore also sparkedanother side of Peterson.
Poetry writing.

Remi (01:09:06):
Out of curiosity, as you were talking, I looked up some
of Charlie Bronson's poetry.
And I just want to read alittle excerpt from his poem
entitled Mr.
Nobody.

Ashley (01:09:21):
And for this reading, Remy, I request that you try to
do it in your best CharlesBronson accent.

Remi (01:09:28):
Knocking knocking in my head.
Not a word is ever said.
All that noise in my spaceAround your neck and old boot
lace.
Knock knock all the time.
Go away, I'm feeling fine.

(01:09:49):
Can't you see what I am?
You can call me son of Sam.
Fear the horns upon my head.
Call me once, and you'll end updead.
Thank you, thank you.

Ashley (01:10:07):
Yet every year his mental health tribunal hearings
came and went, with no progress.
Doctors couldn't agree on whatexactly was wrong with him or if
anything could be done.
In 1984, after years ofpetitions and confrontations,
Peterson was moved to Park LaneHospital, a more modern and

(01:10:30):
humane facility.
His room was furnished, he hadaccess to a gym, classes, and
even a swimming pool.
He seemed calmer, morecontrolled, hopefully.
But stability never lastedlong.
After months of good behavior,he was drawn into yet another
violent incident, this timeattacking a patient who

(01:10:52):
allegedly sent him sexualletters.
Soon after, he took a differentpatient hostage until he was
allowed to call his cousinLorraine.
Two psychiatric reportsfollowed, both concluding he had
no treatable mental illness anddidn't belong in a hospital at
all.
Michael Peterson was simply apsychopath.

(01:11:13):
Within days of being sent backto the prison system in 1985,
Peterson assaulted at leastthree other inmates, resulting
in another three-year sentence.
After yet another transfer, hesmeared feces on his cell walls,
climbed onto the roof, anddestroyed it.

Remi (01:11:33):
I can't imagine that he was getting a lot of friends
while he was locked up duringthis time.
I mean, this guy's a menace.

Ashley (01:11:41):
Oh, there are so many inmates he met during his time
in prison that he just quicklyname drops in his book.
It's wild.
At first, as I was goingthrough his biography, I was
highlighting them in case any ofthem showed up in the film.
And then there's just so manypeople listed that I just said,
fuck it.
This is a movie about CharlesBronson.

(01:12:03):
Any person he met is gonna benothing but a blip in the story.

Remi (01:12:08):
Yeah, there's really only one prisoner that becomes a
factor later in the film.

Ashley (01:12:14):
Well, negotiators eventually coaxed him off the
roof with a series of promises.
A visit from his lawyer,protection from beatings, a set
mental health tribunal date, andfish and chips.
The following year was a blurof transfers.
Some moves were because heattacked officers or inmates,
others were simply because nofacility could manage him for

(01:12:37):
long.
By 1986, prison authoritiesconcluded Peterson should remain
in segregation indefinitely.
He was occasionally granted gymtime or small privileges if he
behaved, but any calm wasfleeting.
Then finally, in 1987, heshowed a stretch of consistent

(01:12:58):
good behavior, and his releasedate was moved forward.
His parents continued to visitwhen they could, and a warden
allowed him to attend artclasses.
Around this time, he startedwriting to a woman named Kelly
Ann who read one of his lettersat his Uncle Jack's house.
Her life was turbulent.
Abused, pregnant, children andfoster care, but something in

(01:13:22):
their correspondence touched himdeeply.

Remi (01:13:25):
They do meet at Uncle Jack's house in the film as
well.

Ashley (01:13:30):
Finally, at the age of 35, after more than 13 years
behind bars, remember he wasonly sentenced to seven, most of
which was spent in solitary,seclusion, or high security
psychiatric units.
Peterson was finally released.
After leaving his parents'place in Wales, embarrassed,

(01:13:51):
confused, and unsure of where togo, he drifted back to London.
On impulse, he bought a plasticwater pistol from a toy shop
and altered it to resemble areal gun.
With no clear plan, he followeda man to his Mercedes, forced
him to drive to Lutton, andwalked the rest of the way to

(01:14:12):
Uncle Jack's house.
Kellyanne, seven monthspregnant at the time, became one
of the few steadying influencesin his life.
When she was sober at least.
Trying to channel hisaggression into something
productive, Peterson trainedobsessively at local gyms.
But it was the raw, undergroundworld of unlicensed fighting

(01:14:33):
where he finally felt a sense ofpower.

Remi (01:14:36):
Back alley bare knuckle boxing.

Ashley (01:14:39):
Through connections he made in prison, he teamed up
with top promoter Paul Edmonds,who helped craft his new
persona.
Edmonds even suggested the nameCharles Bronson, which Peterson
adopted long before he ever sawone of the actors' films.

Remi (01:14:55):
So he had never even seen a Charlie Bronson movie and he
started going by that nameanyway.

Ashley (01:15:02):
Precisely.
Bronson's early fights were amix of spectacle and brutality.
He competed in a charity boutfor a kid with leukemia and
donated half his winnings beforecrossing a darker line when he
killed a Rottweiler in a 10,000quid underground match.

Remi (01:15:22):
There's charity back alley boxing matches?
I had no idea.

Ashley (01:15:28):
Around this time, he met Alison, a young woman he became
smitten with despite herexisting relationship.
Possibly in an attempt to wooand impress her, he robbed a
jewelry store on New Year's Day1988.
He kept one ring as a gift forAllison and pawned the rest.

(01:15:48):
69 days into his latest stretchof freedom, he was arrested
during a morning jog on January7, 1988.
At first, his defense lookedpromising.
There was almost no physicalevidence, and the eyewitnesses
were too terrified to testify.
But everything collapsed whenAllison, who originally gave him

(01:16:11):
an alibi, withdrew herstatement.
She admitted Bronson confessedto the robbery, described the
ring he'd given her, and eventold prosecutors what he'd been
wearing that day.

Remi (01:16:24):
Wow, Allison sold him out.

Ashley (01:16:27):
Allison was also 18 years old and he was 35, so
poo-poo on him.

Remi (01:16:33):
Well, okay, then go, Allison.

Ashley (01:16:36):
Back inside, he spiraled once more.
During exercise one day, heclimbed onto a razor wire-lined
roof ledge in a reckless burstof defiance, only to climb down
later that night.
The next morning, he strippednaked and covered himself in
boot polish, a bizarre act ofprotest that resulted in him

(01:16:59):
being moved once again.

Remi (01:17:01):
So do you think he just would strip naked and cover
himself in boot polish becauseit would make the guards more
uncomfortable fighting him?
Or it made him harder to tacklebecause he was slippery?
What's the logic here?

Ashley (01:17:18):
I think both.
I think it would make himharder to grab because he'd be
slippery.
And if you were a guard thatwould open someone's door and
you just see this huge, bald,naked man covered in black
polish from head to toe, juststaring at you with rage in his
eyes, like that would cause youto pause for a second or two.

Remi (01:17:38):
I would not want to walk into the room and see that sight
before me.

Ashley (01:17:44):
In March 1988, he arrived at Brixton Prison, where
he was kept behind a cage doorwith an additional iron mesh
barrier.
The claustrophobia and tensionwore him down.
One morning, he snapped, lifteda scalding hot tea urn, and
struck another inmate with it.
Amid the chaos, Uncle Jack andKellyanne still visited,

(01:18:09):
offering the only real humanconnection he had left.
On June 17th, 1988, he pledguilty to armed robbery and was
sentenced to seven years.
In court, he declared, Today isthe last day of my criminal
ways.
Sorry you all, my accents areatrocious.
But privately he feltmisunderstood, convinced he

(01:18:31):
didn't belong in prison andneeded help rather than
confinement.
Once Bronson began hisseven-year sentence, the cycle
that would define his life fordecades set in.
A constant loop of transfers,isolation, violence, and
impossible to containvolatility.
By late 1989, he had beentransferred nearly 20 times in

(01:18:55):
just over a year.
A record even seasoned officerscouldn't believe.

Remi (01:18:59):
If he was just acting like a normal prisoner, they
wouldn't have transferred himanywhere, right?

Ashley (01:19:06):
Yeah, he probably would have stayed put.

Remi (01:19:07):
And gotten out in seven years.

Ashley (01:19:09):
Or if he would have transferred, he would have been
transferred to less secureinstitutions.
And no, if he wouldn't haveacted violently, he was up for
parole after 4.5 years.

Remi (01:19:21):
So all he had to do was behave, and he just couldn't
stop fighting.

Bronson (01:19:33):
There's two things he loves, it's fighting and
fighting round the world.

Ashley (01:19:39):
And his behavior allerged between theatrics and
genuine danger.
He would smear himself in bootpolish, stage bizarre standoffs,
destroy entire units, orbarricade himself in offices.
He fashioned a broken bottleonto a makeshift spear, stripped

(01:20:01):
naked, and waited for morningwith no real plan except
confrontation.
Another time, he stormedthrough the dining hall,
overturned tables, and brokeinto an administrative office
simply because he could.
Certain incidents becameinfamous inside the system.
The time he climbed onto aprison roof and belted out,

(01:20:25):
Please release me, untilsecurity relented and let him
speak to a friend.
The time he took a randomadministrator in the yard that
he didn't even know andthreatened to rip out his spine
if anyone approached.
The time he attacked a guardbecause a group of visitors
looked at him, quote, the wrongway.

(01:20:46):
Or how about when he ran nakedthrough Parker's after staff
misplaced a letter, wrecked anoffice, and refused to come out
until they let him callKellyanne?

Remi (01:20:58):
It seems like anyone who was around him at any time was
in danger of being beaten, heldhostage, or potentially
physically or mentally scarredfor life.

Ashley (01:21:11):
I would quit my job if this is someone I had to deal
with every day.
After Uncle Jack died onSeptember 6th, 1991, Bronson
made his way to the roof yetagain and briefly contemplated
ending his life.
While at Parkhurst in 1992, heconvinced staff to let him build
a small fish pond in theexercise yard.

(01:21:33):
Unfortunately, his efforts cameto a standstill when he was
stabbed three days later.
But this is a setback heactually managed.
After getting 120 days of goodtime restored, he finally had a
release date, November 9th,1992.

Remi (01:21:50):
This is just because he was recovering from a stab
wound.
It actually allowed him to haveenough good behavior time to
get a release date finally.

Ashley (01:22:02):
I think he had about a year or so of not atrocious
behavior, so he got some goodtime back.

Remi (01:22:10):
Because he was incapacitated and recovering
from a horrific injury.

Ashley (01:22:16):
For three months.
Upon release, Bronson tried tocarve out a fresh start in New
Brighton and secured a place tolive with the help of two
friends.
He trained daily in the gym andappeared to be doing well until
he noticed two police cruiserswatching him from outside his
apartment.
He panicked, packed up histhings, and left town.

(01:22:38):
He moved between cities overthe next few months, attending
his aunt's funeral in London,spending time with Kellyanne,
visiting London, and celebratingChristmas in Wales with his
parents.
Everything seemed to be goingokay until he found a man at
Kellyanne's apartment and brokehis nose.
When he was arrested a few dayslater, police questioned him

(01:23:02):
about a wig, a gun, and a bankrobbery.
He was charged with conspiracyto rob a bank, possession of a
firearm, and grievous bodilyharm.
The case stemmed fromKellyanne's statements claiming
he shot a gun from her window.
Another witness alleged heasked her to drive a getaway
car.

(01:23:22):
Bronson maintained he had noknowledge of such a plot, and
Kellyanne did retract herstatement a week later.
After 55 days in custody, therobbery charges were dismissed,
and he was fined for theassault.
He went to Kellyanne's foranswers, only to find she fled
town after she learned about hisrelease, which I do not blame

(01:23:45):
her.

Remi (01:23:46):
Yeah, if I was her, I would get as far away from this
man as physically possible.

Ashley (01:23:55):
Barely a month later, on February 25th, 1993, one day
after my fourth birthday,Bronson was arrested again while
in a car with another man.
This time charged withconspiracy to rob a bank and
possession of a sawed-offshotgun.
While in custody awaitingtrial, he took a library worker

(01:24:16):
hostage.
This is Andy Love.
Though he liked Mr.
Love, Bronson carried him intoa room, covered the window with
a blanket, and threatened tosnap his neck.
During the standoff, he madeoutrageous demands.
A blow-up doll, a machine gunwith 10,000 rounds, and a

(01:24:38):
helicopter.
He finally released Mr.
Love after 14 hours, simplybecause he was disgusted by the
man's flatulence.

Remi (01:24:48):
He thought he was farting too much?

Ashley (01:24:50):
He farted once, and Bronson was like, You're
disgusting, this is my home, getthe fuck out of here.

Remi (01:24:57):
That is the most absurd reason I have ever heard of in
my entire life for a hostage tobe released.

Ashley (01:25:05):
After being charged with false imprisonment, it was
decided Bronson would be held insegregation indefinitely,
stripped of nearly allprivileges.
No books, radio, bed, orpersonal visits.

Remi (01:25:20):
I mean he brought it on himself.

Ashley (01:25:23):
In September, he pled guilty to the shotgun charge,
but not to the others.
During his testimony, heclaimed he wasn't planning on
robbing a bank.
He was just casing outKellyanne's hairdresser, which
happened to be a block from thebank, and his plan was to shoe
himself in front of her.

(01:25:44):
On September 14th, 1993, he wasfound guilty of intent to rob
and sentenced to eight years.
He began his prison sentence inwhat is referred to as the
Hannibal Cage, a cell designedto eliminate almost all human
contact.
It had its own toilet andshower, meals were placed ten

(01:26:07):
feet away on a table, and onlylegal visits were allowed at the
cell door.
Guards rarely entered, but whenthey did, a minimum of twelve
were present.
The cell was made of reinforcedsteel and concrete, with
bulletproof glass on one side,and furniture was reduced to
compressed cardboard.

Remi (01:26:26):
So this is where he was being held at the end of the
film, I'm assuming, in a muchmore stylistic, dramatic
fashion.

Ashley (01:26:36):
Yeah, this is where he spends a lot of his time, and it
is kind of like how it is inSilence of the Lamps.
It is underground.
There is no light at all.
And it is just a barren cellthat is impossible to break out
of, and there is nothing inthere to distract you or quell
your boredom.

(01:26:56):
And yet, Bronson made his wayout of the cage in November 1993
and did develop a bit of aroutine.
He cooked for himself, madephone calls, and began taking
English and carpentry lessonsfrom outside instructors.
He painted and met regularlywith a psychologist, as well as
a hypnotherapist brought in tohelp inmates relax.

(01:27:20):
This went on until EasterMonday when he grabbed the
warden, threatened to snap hisneck, and dragged him into a TV
room.
He barricaded the room withtables and chairs, tied the
warden's hands with the necktie,and demanded food, tea, and a
blow doll while singing Ibelieve at the top of his lungs

(01:27:40):
until officers overpowered him.

Frankie Laine (01:27:43):
I believe for every drop of rain that falls, a
flower grows.

Remi (01:28:07):
And he was screaming this at the top of his lungs during a
hostage situation.

Ashley (01:28:14):
Yes, because he said this is the song he wants
playing at his funeral.
Well, he was sent back to thecage and charged for his attack
on the warden.
Amid the relentlessness,confinement, and isolation, some
prison staff and a visiting nunwent out of their way to see
him daily, offeringencouragement while he trained

(01:28:35):
alone.
One day, an officer encouragedhim to channel his energy into
poetry, art, and writing.

Charles Bronson (01:29:27):
You could do something in there.
I'll start with Windows doing abit of uh bit of poetry, a bit
of writing.
And from that moment, I've nowgot 19 books published.

Ashley (01:29:40):
Even in that clip when it's supposed to be him
describing this life-changingevent, he can't help but throw
in, oh yeah, I barricaded andtook the warden hostage, but I
was alone in this cage, bruisedand beaten and alone and just
poor me.
And then someone came in andsaved me.

(01:30:02):
I don't want to sound like it'snot terrible that he was held
in such isolation for so manyyears, but I don't know how else
any place could control someonelike this man.
He brought on a lot of thisbecause of his behavior, and in
my opinion, he does not takefull responsibility for it.

(01:30:25):
Ever.
And I'm not just picking andchoosing clips.
There's one where he talksabout how he is just an
upstanding citizen and should bereleased.

Remi (01:30:35):
This guy is a menace who literally seems to attack
anybody that's around him at anymoment in severely violent and
traumatic ways.
So I don't know how he isdiscounting all of that.
This guy has done so manyhorrific things to so many

(01:31:00):
people without any provocation.
What else were they supposed todo with him if not keep
restraining him and putting himin more severe confinement?

Ashley (01:31:11):
And when you think about it, sure, he hasn't killed
someone and he says, I'm not adanger to society, yet the
longest time he's lasted, notbehind bars since he was 21
years old, was 69 days.
And he committed severe crimes.
He took a man hostage and madehim drive to a different

(01:31:32):
location.
That's kidnapping.

Remi (01:31:34):
You know that little voice that you have inside of your
brain when something crazy popsup, but that voice prevents you
from actually acting upon that.

Ashley (01:31:43):
He does not have that voice.

Remi (01:31:45):
Exactly.
He has zero self-control, andhe takes zero accountability for
his actions.

Ashley (01:31:54):
Well, after Bronson was introduced to art, he taught
himself to draw and slowly founda constructive outlet for his
intensity.
Over time, his dedication paidoff.
He published 19 books and won11 Koesler Awards, an arts
program established by authorArthur Koesler in 1961 to

(01:32:16):
support creativity amongprisoners and secure patients.
In August 1994, he was alloweda personal visit with his father
and brother.
His dad was diagnosed withterminal cancer a year prior, so
both knew it would be the lasttime they saw each other.
In February 1995, he went on an18-day hunger strike and then

(01:32:39):
tried to stab the warden in theeye with a toothbrush.
Even when given positiveencouragement, such as
participating in an athleticprogram for special needs
children in April 1995, hisaggression wasn't kept at bay
for long.
By 1996, the sheer number ofmoves, well over a hundred at

(01:33:00):
this point, and years insolitary confinement, had
clearly taken a toll.
He was chronically paranoid,sensitive to light and sound,
and struggled to tolerate humancontact.
He wore shaded glasses, even toread, and suffered headaches
and distorted hearing, evidenceof the psychological and

(01:33:21):
physical strain of long-termisolation.
In September 1996, threeinmates in prison for hijacking
a plane were his next hostagesafter one of them bumped into
him and didn't apologize.
During the debacle, he madeabsurd demands like a helicopter
to Cuba and a jet to Liberia.

(01:33:42):
He laughed and sang, cut hisown shoulder with the safety
razor, and surrendered afterseven hours.
This is what he had to sayabout it during a subsequent
interview.

It was so funny.
I was squatting him.
I was sitting with back theimpress.
It was fucking mental, mate.
I've got seven years for that,and I fucking laughed every day
since.

Ashley (01:34:08):
This clip highlights my main takeaway about Charles
Bronson.
He says he has remorse for thethings he's done and the people
he's hurt, but when he'sdescribing this incident, he
just describes it as funny.
These people were clearlyterrified, and he just thinks
it's hilarious.

Remi (01:34:28):
Yeah, he has absolutely no remorse for his actions, and
then laughing about it on aradio show.

Ashley (01:34:38):
And just a month later, he took a legal representative
hostage for 30 minutes, thistime out of paranoia.
No charges were filed becausethe attorney refused to press
them or make a statement.
In September 1997, whileawaiting trial for the prisoner
hostage incident, he reconnectedwith his 26-year-old son for

(01:35:01):
the first time in 23 years.
The next month he pled guilty,returned to the Wakefield cage,
and was sentenced to sevenyears, later reduced to five on
appeal.
A slow shift began in February1998 after another prison
transfer.
Bronson started playing chess,training with a fellow inmate,

(01:35:23):
and focused on art.
By August 1998, he was showingsigns of stability.
He worked a cleaning job,engaged in art, and maintained a
comparatively peaceful routine.
This lasted until January 1999,when he received news that the
specialized unit he'd beenthriving in was being shut down.

(01:35:44):
He took this closure as apersonal slight.
Around the same time, hisgrandmother died, and a teacher
made an offhand criticism aboutone of his cartoons.
He attacked the teacher,barricaded a classroom, and
prepared for another siege.
He wrapped wires around hishands and feet, smashed light

(01:36:08):
bulbs, and armed himself withmakeshift weapons.
At one point, fashioning aknife to a pool cue to make a
spear.
The standoff lasted 44 hours.
His behavior swung betweenmenacing and bizarre politeness.
He asked for cups of tea,stared silently while holding a

(01:36:32):
broken bottle to his throat, andcut his own head with it.
He also made strange requests,like asking the teacher if he
would cut off his ear so hecould bury it with his grandma.
He tore apart equipment in theroom.
At one point, he electrocutedhimself while ripping out a
machine from the wall.
He repeatedly tied and retiedhis hostage, ordered him to

(01:36:57):
dance, and praised him as one ofthe best hostages because,
unlike others, he didn't panicor shit himself.
In February 2000, Bronsonfinally stood trial for the
longest and most infamousstandoff of his prison career.
Because the hostage testifiedthat Bronson showed moments of

(01:37:17):
compassion during the ordeal,like offering him blankets and
making him tea, he was actuallyfound not guilty of causing
bodily harm or threatening tokill.
A few days later, despitearguments that years of near
total isolation drove him to thebreaking point, creating a kind
of psychological distress thatno one could reasonably endure,

(01:37:40):
the court found him guilty ofdamaging prison property and
false imprisonment and sentencedhim to life in prison with the
possibility of parole in 2010.
As guards led him away, helooked back and asked, Why don't
you just shoot me?
So this is why Bronson is inprison for life.

Remi (01:38:02):
Yeah, but every single time before this, he was
sentenced to less than 10 yearsbehind bars, and he just kept
exacerbating it every singletime.
So it's not really surprisingthat they finally just threw the
book at him.

Ashley (01:38:22):
No, I agree.
I'm not saying it's surprisingat all, but what I'm saying in
the movie, they kind of skippedover about how and why he got
life in prison.
Bronson changed his name toCharles Ali Ahmed and married
Sarah Ali Ahmed in 2001, but theunion ended in divorce in 2005.
His connection to his familyalso deteriorated.

(01:38:46):
His brother John immigrated toAustralia and died in 2007 from
brain cancer.
His younger brother Markdrifted out of contact
altogether.
Cut off from nearly everyonehe'd known, Bronson turned
inward, channeling his energyinto the one thing he could
still control, his physical andmental discipline.

(01:39:08):
In solitary, he developed abrutally efficient workout
regimen, which he published in a2002 book titled Solitary
Fitness.

I've been training all my life.
I can do 172 press apps in oneminute.
I can do 94 press apps.
In 30 seconds.
I'm the king of press apps.
I'm the strongest, fittest,56-year-old man on the planet.

Remi (01:39:43):
Okay, so by this man's logic, he can do three pushups
per second.
I am calling bullshit on that.
I've seen some extremely fitpeople in my life, and I don't
know anyone who can bust outthree per second, especially not
for any sort of prolongedperiod of time.

(01:40:05):
I don't Care how much time youhave to do them in your cell,
that is just not possible.

Ashley (01:40:12):
I kind of do believe him.
I don't think he can do thatnow because he's in his 70s.

Remi (01:40:17):
One 1000.
That was three.
Do you think he could do threein that amount of time?

Ashley (01:40:24):
In his book, there are copies of certificates that do
look like prison certificates,because I've seen them that
quantify how many push-ups andsit-ups he did.
Granted, these were in the 80s,which is almost 20 years before
he published this book, but Imean this guy was just alone in
a cell forever.
I truly do believe that hewasn't doing much other than

(01:40:48):
physical activity.

Remi (01:40:50):
I'm not denying that he was definitely doing a ton of
push-ups while he was alone inhis cell.
I'm just calling bullshit onthe three per second claim that
he stated in that clip.

Ashley (01:41:03):
Bronson's first bid for parole was denied in March 2009.
By August 2013, 10,000 peoplesigned a petition advocating for
his release.
He once again attacked a wardenin February 2014 over a dispute
about withheld mail, earninghim another two years.

(01:41:24):
Later that year, he changed hisname once again, this time to
Charles Salvador, after SalvadorDolly.

People think I was uh uh a Salvador fan, uh
Salvador Dolly fan.
But I'm not really respectinghis work, but uh people don't
realize Salvador actually meansman of peace.

Ashley (01:41:50):
And I can't think of much better of a way to describe
Charles Bronson other than aman of peace.
Bronson began producing adistinctive body of artwork he
described as fantasy reality.
And Remy, for the past fewminutes I've shown you excerpts
from his book and are justcartoons he drew.

(01:42:12):
Would you describe his style ofart as fantasy reality?

Remi (01:42:17):
I would describe his style of art as anti-social high
schooler.
I mean, it's not bad.
My favorite one is this one ofCharlie Bronson bursting through
a prison door, and there is abowl of clearly marked porridge

(01:42:40):
in front of him, and he isscreaming, Oi, anyone for
scrabble.
But this is the type of stuffthat I remember seeing kids
doodling on the back of theirassignments when I was in like
10th grade.
There's really not a lot moreto it than that, in my opinion.

Ashley (01:43:03):
And head over to our Instagram at criminal
adaptations to view the postfrom this episode, which will of
course contain some of CharlesSalvador's art.
Well, Bronson actually didauction off his collection and
founded the Charles Salvador ArtFoundation to promote his work

(01:43:23):
and support other incarceratedartists.
He continued to make headlinesin February 2017 when he
proposed to small-time actressPaula Williamson during a visit
after just five months ofcorrespondence.
They married in the prisonchapel on November 14th, 2017.

Remi (01:43:43):
They actually did get married.
She's just as wacky as he is.

Ashley (01:43:49):
Well, in July 2018, he requested divorce following a
scandal involving leaked photosof her, but they were still
married at the time of hersurprise death in January 2019.
And yet anotherattention-grabbing stunt
occurred in 2017.
This time, Bronson claimed heidentified a previously unknown

(01:44:13):
son, a photographer named GeorgeBambi.
Bronson claimed that DNAtesting showed that there was a
99.8% chance that he was Bambi'sfather.
I actually found a YouTubevideo of who I assume is George
Bambi interviewing Bronson andthey call each other son and

(01:44:35):
dad.
And yet in March 2023, Bambialleged that the entire story
was nothing but a fabricatedpublicity stunt.
Flashing back in time a fewmoments, in June 2020, Bronson
petitioned successfully to havehis parole hearing be public,

(01:44:55):
citing his right to a fairtrial.
Not long after, he sent thefollowing plea for help to Sky
News.

That's all I've done for the last ten years.

Ashley (01:45:55):
Wow, that was a lot.
Remy, what do you have to thinkabout Bronson's pleas for
release?

Remi (01:46:02):
He said he was not a danger to anybody in that clip.
And I beg to differ.
This man is a danger to anyoneand everyone in his immediate
vicinity at all times for noreason whatsoever.
And this has been the case for50 years at this point, dude.

(01:46:26):
I don't know how he can evensay any of this shit with a
straight face.

Ashley (01:46:32):
He does say that he's 74, which granted, research does
show that violence goes down assomeone ages, but the reason
violence goes down is becausepeople don't have the physical
capability to elicit violence.
This man, I do think he stillhas the physical capability to
inflict violence upon otherpeople.

(01:46:52):
And the UK Parole Board agreedhis parole was last denied in
early 2023.
And that is the true story ofNicholas Reffens Bronson.
I would ask you what you think,Rummy, but we've been very
vocal with what we think aboutCharles Bronson throughout my

(01:47:13):
entire piece.

Remi (01:47:14):
Yeah, we haven't really held back during any of this.

Ashley (01:47:18):
It's really crazy because as I was looking up
videos on YouTube about thisman, all of the comments on the
podcast posts are like, he's alegend, he's an inspiration,
free Bronson, free Bronson.
And as I was reading hisbiography, I do have some
sympathy for him because I can'timagine the psychological

(01:47:40):
damage that has been inflictedupon him because of the amount
of time he has spent onsegregation.
And yet, he was given so manyopportunities by so many prison
officials.
Just stop punching people forno reason.
And throughout his biography,he will say, like, I'm doing
good, life is good, and Iassaulted this cop.

(01:48:02):
I don't know why I actuallylike the guy.
If you really wanted to, youcould search out efforts, even
in prison, to do some intensesoul searching and insight
building.
And I don't think he has triedor he hasn't tried hard enough.
I mean, a prison wardenliterally gave him a chance to

(01:48:23):
run a group with special needschildren, and he loved it.
And then during that time, hejust randomly assaulted someone
else for no reason.
It's like, no, you lost itbecause of your choices, dude.

Remi (01:48:37):
But from a psychological standpoint, there must be
something wrong with thisperson's impulse control,
because, like you said, heseemingly says time after time
that he was doing good.
He liked these people, and thenhe just ends up breaking
someone's nose and holding themhostage.

Ashley (01:49:00):
I think it could be a combination of antisocial
personality disorder, severeADHD, and there's something
called intermittent explosivedisorder, where basically just
the slightest transgression cancause someone to just blow up.
So it could be one of thosethings, all of those things,

(01:49:20):
most likely a combination of allthree.
It's rare that mental illnessis in a vacuum.
So it honestly probably is amixture of both.
And I'm not gonna lie, being insolitary confinement for this
long, he probably is veryparanoid.
So any sort of minor slight tohim, he might perceive as a

(01:49:41):
severe threat on his life, whichcould trigger these explosive
reactions.

Remi (01:49:47):
Speaking of explosive reactions, let's cut to the
opposite of explosive reactionswith our objection of the week,
where we focus on the smallest,most meaningless change between
real life and adaptation.

Objection of the Week (01:50:06):
Your Honor, I object! And why is
that, Mr.
Reed?
Because it's devastating to mycase! Overrule.
Good call!

Ashley (01:50:14):
I'll kick us off with the objection because I'm pretty
confident in mine.
In your part, you saidBronson's first job was at a
deli.
In reality, it was at a grocerystore.

Remi (01:50:24):
And I will just chime in and say I'm not super familiar
with UK grocery stores, so itcould have been, but from the
layout in the film, it reallylooked like it was a meat
counter deli place.

Ashley (01:50:41):
Even with that being said, you said he was fired
because he robbed the place.
In reality, he punched his bossbecause his boss told him he
didn't have the eggs stocked.

Remi (01:50:51):
Okay, he definitely did not do that in the movie.
Did he steal a kiss from acoworker before walking out?

Ashley (01:50:58):
Not from what I saw.
He did mention having a crushon a coworker, but there was
nothing about him stealing alast-minute smooch.

Remi (01:51:06):
Well, okay.
I will follow that up withmine, which is honestly not very
strong, but in the film, hereally has no demands every time
he holds somebody hostage.
While in real life, herepeatedly asked for a blow-up
doll and a helicopter onmultiple occasions.

Ashley (01:51:30):
He twice asked for a blow-up doll.
And during the first time, theywere like, Charlie, why do you
want a blowup doll?
And he's like, So I can marryit.
And they're like, What is gonnahappen if you like get mad at
her?
And he's like, I don't know, Iguess I'll deal with that when I
get to it.

Remi (01:51:46):
And I just have to say, I am super surprised that that was
not incorporated into the filmin any way.
You could have done a lot ofvery interesting visuals with
Bronson and that blowup doll onstage.

Ashley (01:52:03):
I am too.
He could have had a blowup dollwith him in his arm doing one
of his monologues.
I am very surprised that itwasn't written in.

Remi (01:52:12):
That is exactly what I was picturing in my head, or him
having like a seriousconversation with a blowup doll
and him doing the voice of thedoll.
But yeah, that should havedefinitely been included, but
was not.

Ashley (01:52:26):
Well, he never got it, so maybe that's why.

Remi (01:52:29):
I'm gonna give it to you.
Mine was pretty half-hearted.
It was kind of hard for me tofind one in this movie.
So you got this one.
First of the new year,objection of the week is all
yours, Ashley.

Ashley (01:52:43):
Ugh, it's such a sigh because I feel like I've been
losing these for so long.
But let's get into our verdict.

Objection of the Week (01:52:49):
At the conclusion of each episode, our
hosts will deliver a verdictbased on the film's accuracy.
If the film is an honestportrayal of the events, then it
will earn a not guilty verdict.
If the adaptation is mostlyfactual, but creative liberties
were taken for the sake ofentertainment, the film will be
declared a mistrial.
But if the film ultimatelystrays too far from the truth,

(01:53:11):
then it will be condemned asguilty and sentenced to a life
behind bars.

Ashley (01:53:17):
Remy, since I took the lead on the objection, why don't
you kick us off here for ourverdict?
I am just buzzing withanticipation.

Remi (01:53:26):
Alright, bruv.
I'm giving this movie amistrial.
Simply because the filmadaptation, it did get a lot
right.
A lot of the details werethere, but the movie is almost
like if you passed out and had afever dream about Bronson's

(01:53:47):
life.
It's really weird and jumbledtogether, and time kind of
passes without any real meaning,and characters come in and out,
and it's all just sort ofinteresting to look at, but when
you wake up in the morning, itdoesn't really make a lot of
sense.
And that's what I think thismovie is.

(01:54:08):
There is a lot from the Bronsontrue story that was left out,
but I honestly don't know if allof it was worth mentioning.
And I do enjoy the artisticinterpretation that Reffen did
with this story, because it'sreally not the most interesting
story in the world, but he didsomething very creative and

(01:54:29):
unique with it.
However, I don't think in thattransition he fully captured the
real story of the true CharlieBronson in that process.
I'm not sure we were missingout on a ton.
I do think that the rooftopstandoffs were lacking in the

(01:54:51):
film.
However, I think that the moviedoes a good job of capturing
is, the personality, thecharacter of this person, but it
doesn't do a good job oftelling his story as it truly
occurred.
So that is my verdict.
Mistrial, but not for lack oftrying.

(01:55:14):
Ashley, what do you think onMr.
Bronson?

Ashley (01:55:19):
So I actually agree.
I'm gonna go with a mistrial.
There is a lot about this man'slife that is condensed, some of
which I actually kind of envythe director for being able to
do that.
As I was taking notes on thisguy's autobiography, it was
literally like name of prison,here for two weeks, assaulted

(01:55:41):
someone.
Next note, name of prison, herefor three days, assaulted
someone, name of prison, yada,yada, yada, for so many pages.
And I do think that thedirector did a really good job
in a very short amount of timethrough imagery and storytelling
to just show like this is whatis happening throughout this

(01:56:03):
guy's entire incarceration, andhe's unmanageable.
And the little details thatthey kept consistent were very
surprising to me.
The Rottweiler, Allison, theone who he stole the ring for,
Andy Love, the name of thehostage, cousin Lorraine.
They did kind of combine hisfirst and second release and

(01:56:25):
just smushed it into two, whichhonestly he was released for
like 55 days, so who fuckingcares?
And I think that the mainreason this movie gets a
mistrial is from reading this200 and something page
autobiography in very tiny fontand paperback form, and the
scenes you showed me of TomHardy, that is how I picture

(01:56:48):
Charles Bronson.
So for all those reasons, I'malso going with mistrial.

Remi (01:56:53):
This film is basically the poem version of Bronson's life.

Ashley (01:56:59):
One other thing you had mentioned is as you were
watching it, you felt like youwere watching a fever dream.
And I imagine that if you askBronson to reflect on his life,
a lot of it probably does feellike a fever dream.
He's in isolation, he's beingmoved from place to place, he's
being injected with drugs.
A lot of his life is out of hiscontrol and just a whirlwind.

(01:57:24):
So a surprising consensusbetween us.
I think it's been a while sincewe had a consensus.
We've been kind of battlingback and forth, I could be
wrong.
But what do we have on thedocket for next week?

Remi (01:57:37):
Well, it's super appropriate that we discussed a
person named Andy Love duringthis episode, because two weeks
from now, we will be discussingthe film Loving, which is
basically the complete oppositeof Bronson.

Ashley (01:57:56):
And fun fact, this was actually Remy's pick to do our
switch of role, but this is aSupreme Court case, so I think
it's kind of more in mywheelhouse than yours.

Remi (01:58:08):
Totally agreed.
Supreme Court stuff isdefinitely your jurisdiction.

Ashley (01:58:15):
Loving is a 2016 biographical romantic drama
about Richard and MildredLoving, who are actually the
couple that are behind theSupreme Court decision, Loving
v.
Virginia, that made interracialmarriage legal.

Remi (01:58:32):
I am looking forward to discussing this.
I wish we were chatting aboutit on Valentine's Day, but it's
not really working out that wayschedule-wise.
But it will be a welcome changeof pace to discuss two people
that are in love for once in ourpodcast.

Ashley (01:58:54):
We are covering it because both people were
arrested for being married andjust being in love and took it
all the way up to the SupremeCourt, not really because they
wanted to make change, justbecause they wanted to be able
to love each other and be neartheir families.
So I'm very excited for it.
I've never seen this movie.

(01:59:15):
It was actually on my list oftwo watch movies for a long
time.
I'm pretty sure one or both ofthe main leads are nominated for
Academy Award for theirperformance.
I'm reading here that NickKrull and Michael Shannon are
both in it.
And I love Joel Edgerton, soI'm just super stoked to talk

(01:59:35):
about this.
It's gonna be a nice change totalk about a true crime story
that the main takeaway is love.

Remi (01:59:41):
So thank you again, everybody, for joining us and
happy 2026.
We will continue to be herewell into the new year and many
years to come, hopefully.
Now stay tuned for a clip fromthe trailer of Loving.
And until next time, everybody,happy new year and court is

(02:00:06):
Adjourned.

Bronson (02:00:09):
In here.

Tom Hardy (02:00:10):
Richard.
What you doing in bed with thatwoman?
I'm his wife.
That's no good here.

Loving Trailer (02:00:18):
Richard Perry loving being a white person, and
Mildred Jeter, being a coloredperson, did unlawfully
cohabitate as man and wife.

Bronson (02:00:28):
Richard?

Tom Hardy (02:00:31):
I believe this is a battle that could go all the way
to the Supreme Court.
We ain't hurting anybody.
The state of Virginia willargue that it is unfair to bring
children of mixed race into theworld.

Bronson (02:00:55):
I can take care of you.

Loving Trailer (02:00:59):
I know that.

Bronson (02:01:02):
I can take care of you.

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