Bully

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashley (00:08):
Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, the show where we
take a look at some of yourfavorite movies and the true
crime stories that inspired them.
I'm Ashley.
I'm a clinical psychologist andforensic evaluator in the state
of Oregon.

Remi (00:21):
And I'm Remy.
I spent over a decade workingin the film and television
industry in Los Angeles,California.

Ashley (00:28):
And welcome back everyone.
We hope you enjoyed the comedicreprieve from two weeks ago,
because now we are in forsomething a bit heavy, in my
opinion, probably the mostbrutal case we've discussed to
date.
What do you think, remy?

Remi (00:47):
we've discussed today.
What do you think, remy?
This is the first time I haveever had more notes for my pre
and post production than I dofor the film itself.
It is a crazy story, by the way, everyone.
This week we will be discussingLarry Clark's film Bully.
Ashley, had you heard of thefilm Bully?

Ashley (01:01):
Bully is about the murder of Bobby Kent that took
place in 1994 in Florida.
I had not heard about this casebefore.
It essentially involves seventeenagers deciding to murder
their friend, Bobby Kent, whobullied several of them.

Remi (01:21):
And you said you hadn't seen this film before, correct?

Ashley (01:25):
I have never seen this movie.
I had never even really heardabout it until we were
brainstorming episodes for thispodcast way before we even
started filming, and this is oneof the first ones you actually
mentioned, along with Death ofDick Long, so another one that
we've been sitting on for awhile.

Remi (01:43):
And I have actually seen this movie a few times.
Believe it or not, I don't knowwhat that says about me, but I
was a big fan of the movie Kidsas a Teenager, which was Larry
Clark's first film, who alsodirected Bully so I sought this
one out as soon as I heard aboutit.
Now I will be the first toadmit that I was a troubled teen

(02:05):
growing up, so a lot of thesecharacters and situations in
Kids and Bully did remind me alot of my own time as a teenager
minus the rape and murder ofcourse.

Ashley (02:18):
Well, that is good to know.

Remi (02:19):
And as far as this film's casting goes, brad Renfro.
Had you heard of Mr Renfro?
He is the main character ofthis film.
Marty Puccio.

Ashley (02:30):
I know he was in the movie Tom and Huck, but to be
honest, when I saw that as apreteen, I had eyes for one star
, and one star only, and thatwas JTT.

Remi (02:42):
I think I was probably a little bit jealous of JTT's fame
and popularity when I was alittle kid, so I was definitely
more of a Brad Renfro fan and Ihad seen him in the Client Apt
Pupil.
He had been around for a whileand he was a good child actor
and I had heard of some of hispersonal demons.

(03:04):
But until doing the researchfor this podcast I had no idea
how severe they actually were.

Ashley (03:14):
Before we get into all of that, let's start with
pre-production.
This is something I know, Remy.
You have been itching to tellme about for the past two weeks,
so now is your time to shine.

Bully (clip) (03:27):
I can't believe I'm fucking doing this right now
.
I'm fucking adrenaline Shut thefuck up, Donnie.
Wow, you know what?
You really shouldn't yell likethat.

Remi (03:34):
Bully is a 2001 film directed by Larry Clark, written
by David McKenna under thepseudonym of Zachary Long.
The film stars Brad Ranfro,bijou Phillips, rachel Miner,
michael Pitt, leo Fitzpatrick,daniel Franzese, kelly Garner
and Nick Stahl.
By the age of 16, larry Clarkbegan injecting amphetamines and

(03:58):
taking photographs of himselfand his friends while growing up
in Tulsa, oklahoma.
Clark's affinity forphotography continued into his
adult life, with his workprimarily focusing on underage
teenagers who were part of aspecific subculture, such as
surfing, punk rock orskateboarding, and who usually
engaged in illegal drug use,unprotected sex and senseless

(04:21):
violence.

Ashley (04:22):
I'm already getting such bad vibes and senseless
violence.

Remi (04:25):
I'm already getting such bad vibes.
Clark would make his featurefilmmaking debut with 1995's
Kids, which focuses on a groupof reckless teenagers navigating
through a typical day in NewYork City while unknowingly
spreading HIV to unsuspectingvirgins depicted with jarringly
shocking realism.

Ashley (04:42):
This is a movie you had me watch not too long ago.
You got my buy-in by letting meknow that it was starring Chloe
Sevigny and Rosario Dawson, andI will say it was a good film,
but certainly one that is notfor everyone.

Remi (04:57):
It is a hard watch and it is Rosario Dawson and Chloe
Sevigny's feature film debut,and they have gone on to much
bigger and better things sincethen.
But yeah, kids is a very goodfilm, but it is a very shocking,
disturbing and it's justsomething that most people
probably would not want to watchmore than one time.

(05:21):
For Clark's second film, bully,american History X screenwriter
David McKenna wrote severaldrafts of the screenplay, all of
which were turned down by Clarkin favor of scenes taken
directly from Jim Schutz's bookBully, a True Story of High
School Revenge.

Ashley (05:38):
Wow, two comments on that.
First, what a coincidence thatwe picked this to do the same
season that we have our doublefeature season finale that is
going to include AmericanHistory X.
And second, that is the book Iread for my primary research of
this true case.

Remi (05:55):
Clark said that earlier drafts of the screenplay had
removed any implication that thevictim, bobby Kent, may have
been a closeted homosexual.
But Clark insisted that thesubtext of Kent's sexuality
needed to be included in thefinal version of the film.
Up-and-coming former child starBrad Renfro had already made a

(06:16):
name for himself with such hitsas the Client Tom and Huck,
sleepers and Apt Pupil, so whenhe was brought in to play Bobby
Kent in the film, the remainingactors were cast around him.

Ashley (06:28):
Is Sleepers.
That movie we watched not toolong ago with Kevin Bacon.

Remi (06:32):
We watched it a few years ago.
But yes, kevin Bacon and BradPitt are in that film.
I think Robert De Niro is aswell.
It's been a while.
Jake Gyllenhaal and AshtonKutcher were both considered for
the role of Marty Puccio, butClark wanted to cast Nick Stahl,
who had just been offered arole in a psychological thriller

(06:52):
starring Andy Garcia called theUnsaid.
Stahl knew immediately that hewanted to do Bully, much to the
chagrin of his agent and manager, who responded You're turning
down Andy Garcia, his agent andmanager, who responded you're
turning down Andy Garcia.
Garcia even flew Stahl out toCanada to try and talk him into
doing the movie with him, butStahl still ended up sticking

(07:13):
with Bully over the latter.
At some point, brad Renfrodeclared that he would rather
play Marty instead of Bobby,claiming that it felt natural
for him and Stahl to playopposite roles.
This idea intrigued Larry Clarkalmost immediately, despite
Renfro's co-star, nick Stahl,initially believing that he

(07:34):
wasn't right for the role ofBobby, stating If you drew the
polar opposite of who I was atthat time, it probably would
have been Bobby Kent.
Who I was at that time, itprobably would have been Bobby
Kent.
Lionsgate Films additionallyvoiced their concern that the
actors would be miscast if theyswapped roles, but Clark
embraced the change as a way tosubvert audience expectations of

(07:57):
what a bully can look like.

Cousin Derek (08:01):
Well, in real life Bobby Kent was twice Marty
Puccio's size and when Nick gotdown here and he was about that
size right there, not too muchbigger than myself I was a
little worried, you know.
But I think it actually adds tosome of the psychological

(08:23):
appeal, you know, because I'mplaying Marty very, you know,
introverted and repressed, andyou can just see this repression
.
I haven't seen dailies, am Iwrong?

I haven't seen dailies.

But I think you're going to see like this
repression in Marty and Nick's,just all one way, just
misogynistic, brutal bastard.
You know you bastard, you knowjust misogynistic, brutal
bastard.
And it's like through the wholefilm you kind of slowly see a

(08:58):
transition of Marty stepping upthe bat when he does brutally
murder the guy stepping up tobat when he does brutally murder
the guy.

Remi (09:09):
For the role of Lisa Connelly, rachel Miner, was cast
after taking over a year-longbreak from acting to escape the
intrusive media attentionbrought upon her due to her
brief marriage to MacaulayCulkin when they were both just
18 years old.

Ashley (09:19):
And now he is happily married to Brenda Strong and
they are so cute on social media.
Highly recommend you all followthem.

Remi (09:27):
They are a very cute couple, but Rachel and Macaulay
would ultimately separate notlong before shooting began.
So Clark arranged for Minor tofly out to Florida early in
order to avoid the paparazzi,which was nice of him, but that
will probably be one of the lastkind things I say about Larry
Clark in this podcast andcelebrity of the season for us.

(09:52):
Jared Leto was considered forthe role of Derek Kaufman, but
Clark insisted on casting LeoFitzpatrick, whom he had
previously worked with on Kids.

Ashley (10:03):
I actually think Jared Leto would have been a good cast
choice for Derek Hoffman.
He's the oldest of the gang andhe's the one person that didn't
have any sort of priorrelationship to anyone in this
group and just kind of camealong for the ride for the fun
of it.

Remi (10:20):
I think Leto could have done a pretty good job in this
role as well.
Leo Fitzpatrick, he is not acharismatic dude.
He's a good actor, but I thinkthat someone like Leto in this
role would be someone whoyounger teens would think, hey,
this is a cool guy, this is ahit man, this is someone we
should listen to and follow hisdirections.

(10:42):
But Leo Fitzpatrick you see himright away and you're like this
guy does not know what he'stalking about and I would not
listen to him if I was a teen.
Fitzpatrick did still have toaudition for the part, however,
which consisted of Fitzpatrickgetting up in Clark's face in
order to prove that he could beintimidating, and he was also
the oldest member on set, or atleast of the main cast.

(11:06):
He was 22 when this was filmed.
Every other actor was 20 yearsold or younger.
Coincidentally, fitzpatrick andMichael Pitt, who would later be
cast as Donnie Semenik in thefilm, are both originally from
West Orange, new Jersey, wherethey had attended the same
school together.
Admittedly, west Orange, newJersey, where they had attended

(11:26):
the same school together.
Admittedly, fitzpatrick, whowas a grade or two above Pitt,
never really liked him whilethey were growing up, because he
said that Pitt was a pretty boy, but they did become friends
while shooting the film.
Kelly Garner was only 16 yearsold at the time and had just
started acting when she was castin the role of Heather Swallers
.
She is also the youngest castmember in this film.

(11:49):
Garner had recently dyed herhair blue for a short film she
had just completed, called theArchitecture of Reassurance,
which caught the eye of LarryClark, who then became obsessed
with Garner's look in the film.
I did not include this part inmy research, but there is a
quote from Clark in which he isdescribing finding Kelly Garner

(12:13):
at the age of 16, with blue hairand braces, and the way he
describes her is, let's just say, repulsive for a grown man to
be talking that way about a16-year-old.

Ashley (12:26):
Knowing that this guy's first two movies involved
working with a lot of underageminors, I'm going to be shocked
if in the pre-production youdon't say he turned out to be
some child molester or consumerof child explicit sexual
material as of this podcast.

Remi (12:43):
There are no allegations or anything of that nature
against Clark, but there areother legal things that he has
been involved in that we willget into in a bit.
Kelly Garner was originallyoffered the much smaller role of
the Pizza Hut girl namedClaudia, but Garner disagreed
with her casting, stating no, Idon't want that role.

(13:05):
I'll only do this film if I getto play Heather, and it seems
like a lot of the cast in thisfilm got their say in recasting,
for whatever reason.
While scouting locations for aclub scene one night, clark and
the film's casting directorhappened upon a talent show
where they caught DanielFranzese performing a song on

(13:25):
stage, futilely attempting towin the contest's cash prize so
that he could pay his rent thatmonth.
When Franzese was introduced toClark, he initially came on a
bit too strong for Clark'sliking, so when Franzese went
into audition later, the castingdirector pulled him aside and

(13:47):
told him point blank Larrydoesn't like you, so when you go
in, just pretend to be thecharacter, which.
I can't imagine a castingdirector saying that right
before an audition.

Ashley (13:58):
Yeah, talk about giving you nerves.

Remi (14:11):
Well, this advice must have paid off somehow, since
Franzese ended up landing therole of Derek Zvarko in his very
first on-screen performance.
Zooey Deschanel was originallyset to play Allie Willis but
ended up dropping out to filmBig Trouble.

The role of Allie would eventually go to the
daughter of the man who wrote alittle song you may have heard
of.

Remi (14:47):
Enter Bijou Phillips, daughter of American musician
John Phillips of the Mamas andthe Papas.
At the time, Bijou wasappearing in newspapers nearly
every day simply for going outto clubs, while being young,
rich and famous, with Clarkhimself describing her as Paris
Hilton before Paris Hilton.

Ashley (14:59):
That is the exact person I thought of.

Remi (15:02):
Even though she had never acted before.
Clark said that the casting ofBijou is what finally got the
film greenlit, due to the fameand notoriety she had garnered
because of her father's name Ah,nepotism.
For her character, bijoubrought all of her own clothing
and styled them herself.
It has also been reported thatupon Bijou's arrival to set, she

(15:25):
became the de facto queen beeover all of the other actors and
would often use her own socialhierarchy within the group to
manipulate and belittle othersfor her own amusement.

Ashley (15:37):
Wow, so there was an actual bully on the set of Bully
.

Remi (15:41):
Bijou is the bully of this production absolutely, and we
will get into that a lot more inthe post-production section.
Bully's musical budget was onlyaround $5,000, but Larry Clark
really wanted to use ForgotAbout Dre by Dr Dre and Eminem,
which at the time would havecost roughly a quarter of a

(16:04):
million dollars to useprominently in the film.
I also don't understand why hereally wanted this in the film.
It has nothing to do with thecharacters or situations or
anything.
It was literally just a popularsong that was released around
the time that this movie wasbeing shot.
But, lucky for Clark, Eminemwas a huge fan of kids.

(16:25):
So when Clark and Eminemcrossed paths at the MTV Movie
Awards, Clark got Eminem to signoff on licensing the track to
use in Bully.
That was only half the battle,however, since Clark also needed
to get Dr Dre to sign off aswell, which ended up taking an
additional six months.
In the end, Dr Dre approvedClark's request for less than a

(16:50):
fraction of the amount that thesong would have usually cost.

Ashley (16:54):
Persistence pays off.

Remi (16:56):
Bully was originally given a 40-day shooting schedule, but
upon Clark's arrival to set,Lionsgate informed him that, due
to budget constraints, he nowhad just 23 days to finish
filming.
This compressed productionschedule, along with
unpredictable weather conditionsand behind-the-scenes drama,
all inevitably contributed to achaotic experience on set for

(17:19):
the entire cast and crew.
Entire cast and crew.
Since Brad Renfro had to be 18to shoot the film.
Clark went down to pick upRenfro personally the day after
his 18th birthday from a trailerpark in Knoxville, Tennessee,
where the actor had been livingwith his grandmother.
However, when Clark finallyarrived, Renfro looked

(17:40):
shockingly terrible and wascompletely loaded on drugs, with
blood dripping down both of hisarms from shooting up cocaine.

Ashley (17:50):
Jesus and his response is Get in the car, we're going
to shoot a movie.
This kid clearly needssignificant help.

Remi (17:58):
Well, clark did stay with Renfro in Knoxville for about
three days until finally, in hiswords, kidnapping Renfro by
driving him directly to Floridato shoot the film, under the
guise of taking the actor to aStarbucks to get some coffee one
morning.
So literally like, hey, man,you want to go get a cup of joe?
Get in the car and he driveshim to Florida.

Ashley (18:21):
Probably the worst state in the United States for this
kid to go to at this point.

Remi (18:26):
I'll say Renfro was literally detoxing the entire
drive and then the second thatthey got there he was ordered to
get back in shape and go to thegym and start working out as
soon as possible to be cameraready for the shoot.
On the eve of production in thesummer of 2000, Brad Renfro

(18:46):
climbed out of the window of hisFort Lauderdale motel room to
go party with the locals andended up getting so hammered
that he stole a yacht.
While heavily intoxicated,Renfro managed to hotwire the
stolen vessel but had forgottento untie it.
So when Renfro accelerated theengine, the yacht bashed up

(19:08):
against the dock and wasseverely damaged in the process.
Renfro was arrested after theowners called the police, but
Larry Clark bailed him out ofjail and took him straight to
set to shoot his first scenes ofthe film.

Ashley (19:23):
This is all so much more tragic knowing what happens to
this kid later in life.

Remi (19:27):
Yes, the second that Larry Clark showed up and saw Renfro
in the condition he was in, heshould have been calling the
production and saying we need anew actor, while simultaneously
seeing if anyone can help thiskid.
I mean, he's literally justturning 18 years old and he's
showing up to the door and he'sgot blood dripping down his arms

(19:49):
from injecting drugs and yourfirst thought is let's sober him
up for three days and drive toFlorida.
That's so fucked up.
The cast and crew all stayed atthe same hotel throughout the
duration of the shoot, whichallowed the other actors to do
regular read-throughs togetherto prepare for the following
day's scenes.
One night, brad Renfro tried toescape his room to go out and

(20:11):
party again, but his attempt wasthwarted after being caught by
his parole officer.
When Renfro's PO escorted theyoung actor back to rehearsals,
larry Clark was so infuriated byhis insolence that he grabbed
Renfro by the neck, lifted himoff the ground and shook him
violently while yelling you'renot gonna fuck up my movie.

Ashley (20:36):
So this PO is just waiting around to catch
18-year-olds sneaking out ofhotel windows.
But is okay with a grown manlifting this person off the
ground by his neck.

Remi (20:47):
I assume he just dropped him back off at rehearsals and
left the room right after.
I don't think he was likestanding guard behind him, but
maybe he should have been.
Steve Gaynor, the film'scinematographer, later described
the experience of working onBully as the most frantic,
chaotic production of his entirecareer, stating we were all

(21:08):
young kids getting high andshowing up to work to varying
degrees of sobriety.
And with that should we getinto the actual film that all of
this chaos produced, larryClark's Bully.

Ashley (21:24):
Let's do it.
I'm as ready as I'm ever goingto be.

Remi (21:44):
Our story begins in Hollywood, Florida, with Marty
Puccio, played by Brad Renfro,having phone sex in his bedroom
while his mother calls him todinner from the other room.

Ashley (21:54):
Were you doing that as a troubled teen.

Remi (21:57):
I was never into phone sex .
As a troubled teen, just doingit on the family line in my home
Seems pretty daring.
I was not that risky.
We then cut to sometime later,where we see Lisa Connelly,
played by Rachel Miner, andAllie Willis, played by Bijou
Phillips, pulling into a grocerystore parking lot in Allie's

(22:19):
convertible.
Before finishing theircigarettes and making their way
inside, the girls head over tothe deli counter where they find
Marty and Bobby Kent, played byNick Stahl, hard at work making
sandwiches.
After provocatively orderingtheir lunch, marty introduces
himself to the girls and shylyasks if they'd like to go
surfing sometime.

(22:40):
Allie and Lisa say they'llthink about it, then take their
leave as Bobby teases Martyabout his flirting skills while
making vulgar comments about thetwo girls.
Later at the beach, marty andBobby catch some waves as Allie
and Lisa watch Awestruck fromthe shore, with Lisa in
particular seeming quite takenby Marty.

(23:03):
Afterwards they all smoke alittle weed while cruising down
to the liquor store to buy somebooze, where Marty politely asks
if Bobby wouldn't mind chippingin a few dollars for alcohol,
since Marty is currently low onfunds.
This request is met with aviolent outburst by Bobby, who
ferociously grabs Marty by theear while verbally berating him

(23:27):
until he finally submits andagrees to pay for everything
personally.
The teens then drive aroundtown drinking and getting high
as the sun goes down, until theyeventually settle into an empty
parking lot where Bobby hooksup with Allie while Lisa and
Marty have sex in the back seat.
A few nights later, marty andBobby are hanging out at a gay

(23:50):
club on Teen Amateur Night,featuring a stage full of
shirtless young boys gyratingsuggestively to heavy dance
music.
While watching the show, anolder man in the crowd offers to
give Bobby $100 if he canconvince Marty to get on stage
and dance with the other boys.
Though Marty is adamantlyagainst this, bobby still forces

(24:13):
him into involuntarilyperforming in front of the
leering audience, then keeps theentire $100 to himself, along
with any tips from the audiencethat Marty received that night.
Dollars to himself, along withany tips from the audience that
Marty received that night.
While driving home from theclub the following morning,
bobby mocks Marty relentlesslyby calling him a homosexual for

(24:34):
going along with what Bobby madehim do the other night.
Marty is momentarily distractedby Bobby's ridicule, causing
him to nearly hit a curb whiledriving Bobby's car, resulting
in Bobby repeatedly punchingMarty in the face while he is
still driving.

Motherfucker, fuck this goddamn shit, marty.

Hey, get in the car.

Fuck you, man, I'm sorry man, let's just go.
Let's go.
I'm sorry.

Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Interv (25:36):
Put your fucking hands off me,
Bobby.
I'm really sorry.

You're my best friend.

Ashley (25:49):
Okay, and from what I can tell from the book, that is
typically how these outburstswent.
Bobby would lose his temper andbeat Marty and immediately
apologize and assure Marty thathe's his best friend he's like a
brother and that was enough tomake Marty forgive him and
continue on with theirrelationship.

Remi (26:10):
And I do want to just add that Brad Renfro is doing
something with his posture inthis movie, where he has his
head forward, his shouldersforward.
It's like he has all of hisemotions curled up in a ball in
front of him that he's trying tokeep stuffed down, and it's
just very good body posturing hedid for this role.

(26:31):
Days later, Marty and Lisa arehaving sex again at Marty's
place when Bobby suddenlyemerges from the bathroom naked,
whips Lisa with a belt andsocks Marty in the face, leaving
him with a black eye.
Lisa with a belt and socksMarty in the face, leaving him
with a black eye.
Over breakfast the next morning, Marty begs his parents to
relocate the family to anothertown, but Marty's father balks

(26:53):
at his son's pleas After leavingthe table in frustration.
Lisa arrives and the two retreatback to Marty's room to smoke a
little weed and chill out for abit.
While sharing a joint, nakedlying in bed together, Marty
reveals the traumatic story ofthe first time he ever got high.
Bobby had tricked him intosmoking something that was laced

(27:15):
with another drug, possiblymethamphetamines or PCP, which
caused Marty to have a panicattack and run all the way home
to cower in fear under hisbedsheets.
Once Bobby found Marty, hecontinued to terrify him until
Marty ultimately ended upurinating in his pants out of
pure fear.

Ashley (27:36):
I left this out of my part, but this is written about
in the book.

Remi (27:41):
This is just insanely tragic how Marty was treated.

Ashley (27:45):
By his best friend.

Remi (27:47):
Supposed best friend.
Yes, lisa discovers that she ispregnant in the weeks that
follow, and though she ishopeful that the baby belongs to
Marty, there is still a hint ofdoubt, since she had also had
sex with Bobby around the sametime, though this was never
shown on screen.

Ashley (28:06):
And how it's described in the book is it was a forced
situation.

Remi (28:11):
Lisa then hitches a ride from her cousin Derek played by
Daniel friend Zazie over toMarty's place to break the news.
Once there, lisa and Marty headinto the other room to talk in
private, while Bobby takes Derekinto the bedroom to show off
some disturbing homemadepornography, prominently
featuring Marty, which Bobbyplans on selling to old perverts

(28:35):
.
Derek, of course, finds thisall really creepy and weird, so
excuses himself from thesituation as quickly as possible
, which is what you should do ifanyone ever shows you something
like this in their bedroom.
Meanwhile, marty is not takingthe news of Lisa's pregnancy

(28:55):
very well at all and begins toget physical with her while
screaming that she has to get anabortion.
Luckily, derek hears thecommotion and is able to
separate them before theiraltercation escalates any
further.

Ashley (29:10):
Derek is like the shining light in this whole
movie and story and it's a dimlight, but it's something.

Remi (29:20):
Derek is the one character that I do legitimately feel
sorry for in all of this, and itis the one actor in the end
that I do legitimately feelsorry for in all of this, and it
is the one actor in the endthat I do feel sorry for in all
of this as well.
But we will get to that.
Back at home, lisa's mother isextremely upset by the numerous
bruises covering her daughter'sbody from Marty's assault, but

(29:41):
Lisa still insists that she isin love with Marty and refuses
to allow her mother to take anyaction that would potentially
harm him.
That night Lisa calls Allie,who is in the midst of dripping
hot wax candle sex with DonnieSemenik, played by Michael Pitt.

Ashley (30:00):
This was probably an unnecessary scene for Larry
Clark to include.

Remi (30:05):
This was probably an unnecessary scene for Larry
Clark to include.
There are quite a few graphicsexual scenes in this film that
Larry Clark didn't need toinclude but chose to.
Anyway, lisa asks if Allie isinterested in hooking up with
Bobby again, since he's intosome really quote-unquote freaky

(30:26):
shit immediately piques Ali'sinterests.
Elsewhere we are shown aglimpse into Bobby Kent's home
life during a typical familydinner with his parents.
I said I haven't seen.

Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Inte (30:35):
Marty lately.

That's good.
He's probably too busy with hissurfing, a game the children
play at the beach.
It's a way of life, really.

Dr. Drew (30:51):
Your friend Marty, tell you that what kind of life
is splashing around in the wavesand saying Whee, so may we
excuse no.

Son you we excuse no, son, you are smart, you have
ambition, you have presence.
Your friend Marty is leading alife of complete aimlessness.
You know, I know what happenedto that kid.
He used to be a good kid.
He's got no ambition, no fireand he's got nothing.
I don't want you spending somuch time with him.
I will move this family faraway from here before I see you

(31:28):
waste your life away.
Is that understood?
Yes, sir, I booked a pianolesson for you.

Ali Willis (Dr. Drew I (31:35):
Thursday .

Ashley (31:37):
In the real story, this conversation about Marty's
quote-unquote bad influencehappens much sooner.
He was not really into Martybecause the dad was really into
school and ambition and that isnot something he thought Marty
embodied.

Remi (31:53):
And I also want to point out that Marty begged his
parents to move because of whatBobby was doing to him, and they
downright refused, saying we'renot gonna uproot our family
just because you're having someissues.
And in this scene we hear thatBobby's parents are more than
willing to uproot their entirefamily to get away from Marty.

(32:17):
So a little bit of irony there.
A few days later, over atBobby's place, allie and Bobby
are getting reacquainted whileMarty and Lisa watch rap videos
in the adjoining room.
Through their conversation,allie learns that Bobby is a
good student with a solid Baverage, and he has already
begun applying to colleges withplans of going into the window

(32:40):
tinting business with his fatherafter graduating.
Allie and Bobby then retreat toBobby's bedroom to fool around
a bit, but the mood quicklychanges when Bobby puts on a
tape of gay pornography and thenbrutally rapes her Afterwards.
Allie informs an unsympatheticLisa about what had just

(33:01):
occurred, then storms out of thehouse in distress just as
Bobby's father arrives home fromwork.
Bobby's father discovers his soncompulsively washing his hands
in the bathroom and says that hedoesn't want Bobby hanging out
with Marty anymore because he'sa bad influence.
I'm just going to point outthat his father walked past

(33:23):
Marty and Lisa in the livingroom watching rap videos, just
hanging out being teenagers, andI'm sure that's something he
saw and was just like ah, thesedegenerates.
Bobby reluctantly agrees to hisfather's demands, but under the
condition that he can stillhire Marty to work for them when
he and his father open abusiness together.

(33:45):
Later on, days later, marty hasan emotional breakdown in front
of Lisa about how cruelly Bobbyhas always treated him and
offhandedly opines that killingBobby may be his only means of
escape.
Saddened by her lover's torment, lisa then proposes that they

(34:05):
actually follow through withmurdering Bobby so that they can
both be rid of him once and forall.
Though Marty is initiallyapprehensive about Lisa's idea,
he is soon convinced thatkilling Bobby is their only
solution.

Ashley (34:22):
They basically like hype each other up here.
They're both talking about likewhat, if he was gone, life
would be so much better in thisway and that way and this way
and it would be so easy to getaway with it, and yada, yada,
yada.

Remi (34:36):
The film definitely makes it up like Lisa is hyping it up
more than Marty is.
Marty is on board with this,but Lisa is definitely the one
who's like this is going tosolve all of our problems.
We just need to get rid ofBobby and then our life will be
perfect.

Ashley (34:55):
That's how it's depicted in the book too, but he comes
on board pretty quickly.

Remi (35:00):
Oh, he comes on board in a matter of a minute and a half
in the movie, maybe less.
Oh, he comes on board in amatter of a minute and a half in
the movie, maybe less.
Lisa then calls Allie, whoimmediately agrees to go along
with Lisa's plan.
Allie then elicits additionalassistance from her casual sex

(35:20):
partner, Donnie, on the eve ofhis 18th birthday, Before
picking up her friend HeatherSwallers, played by Kelly Garner
, who has just fled rehab formethamphetamine addiction.

Ashley (35:27):
It was crack cocaine, but close enough.

Remi (35:30):
That night the entire group has a rendezvous at Pizza
Hut to discuss the details ofLisa's plan.

He beats me.
He's raped me before.
The worst part is the way hepicks on Marty.
He treats him like a dog or aslave or something.
Pissed me off so bad.
I can't stand it.
So what are you going to do,Lisa?
I'm going to kill him.
That's some heavy shit.
Yeah, it is.
So how are you going to?
do it.
Why are you guys so serious?

Remi (36:01):
I'm going to fix Bobby Kent's ass, cool serious, I'm
gonna fix Bobby Kent's ass CoolBack at Lisa's.
She reveals that she hasalready stolen her mother's
handgun to carry out the attack,and the group quickly devises a
plan to use Allie as bait tolure Bobby out to an isolated
spot in the Florida Evergladesunder the pretense of another

(36:23):
sexual encounter.
Marty then calls Bobby thatvery night, setting the plan in
motion, but stays behind whilethe others proceed with the plan
without him.
After picking up Bobby, thegroup drive to a secluded area
where Lisa intends on pullingthe trigger personally, but is
unable to do so when the momentarises.

(36:43):
After this failed attempt,allie calls up a wannabe hitman
she knows the following day,named Derek Kaufman, played by
Leo Fitzpatrick, who is in themidst of buying stolen stereo
equipment from a gaggle ofprepubescent teens in his
parents' garage.
Next, lisa phones her cousinDerek, asking for his help as

(37:06):
well, and he is soon picked upby Heather and Donnie, who all
drop acid together beforeheading over to the comic shop
to play a bit of Mortal Kombat.
Afterwards they are all pickedup by Allie and Lisa, who brings
them to an introductory meetingwith the supposed hitman.
And just for clarity's sake,since our story now has two

(37:29):
characters named Derek.
I will be referring to thisso-called hitman by his last
name of Kaufman.
And side note here, kaufman'sfather in this next scene is
actually portrayed by the film'sdirector, larry Clark, in a
brief cameo.
Anyway, kaufman agrees to helpplan Bobby's murder and maybe

(37:49):
even supervise, once the groupcan procure some alternative
weapons that can't be so easilylinked back to Lisa and her
mother Over a joint.
Later that night, heatherrecalls the story of how her
grandfather murdered hergrandmother to Allie and Donnie.
Heather continues by revealingthat her grandfather then spent

(38:12):
two whole days locked in theroom alone with her
grandmother's corpse, drinkinghimself into oblivion, while
Heather's 15-year-old motherremained in the house the entire
time.

Ashley (38:24):
God, that would cause some long-term psychological
damage for Heather's mom.

Remi (38:30):
And I just want to point out that this story was brought
up because the group was talkingabout how none of them had ever
met anyone who killed someonebefore, like no one knew anybody
who had murdered someone.
And Heather raises her handlike I know somebody and shared
this horribly traumatic story.
Later in life, when Heather wasjust a little girl, her mother

(38:54):
would drag her out of bed in themiddle of the night in a
drunken stupor to read aloudnewspaper clippings she had
saved regarding the incident.
Days later, the entire gangreconvenes at Marty's place to
go over the plan with Kaufmanafter Marty arranges another
outing with Bobby later thatevening.

Yo, what about this shit?
Yo, you think this shit is goodenough for him.
Like, right here, right here,what the fuck for you gonna go
play baseball?
No, well then, what the fuck?
You got a bat for man.
What are you gonna do with that?
We're the guy, what guy?
Bobby Kent, what about BobbyKent, the fucking guy we're

(39:35):
gonna kill man.
It's his bat, like good enoughto fucking ram his fucking head
in.
You know, I don't know man.
Alright, how about this knife?
This knife is good, right'ttrying to like sharpen it and
shit, but I don't know.
I don't know man, Alright fuck.
Alright, okay, what I wannaknow is like, are we just gonna
fight this guy, or like are wegonna kill him?
Look, I want this motherfuckerdead tonight and I don't want
any bullshit.
Yeah, I mean you know.

(39:55):
Look, this is the son of abitch that raped Allie.
You know he fucking raped heryeah and I mean just think about
it.
You won't even let Marty have alife.
I mean Bobby beats the shit outof him.
He does anything Bobby doesn'tlike You're shooken mind.
I mean you won't even let himsee his own family.

Ashley (40:11):
That sucks.

This guy deserves to die.
He does deserve to die, I agree.
So we're not just gonna likefight him and scare him, we're
gonna kill him.
We're gonna kill him.

This motherfucker dead.
You understand scam?
I'm gonna kill him.
Gonna kill him, thismotherfucking dead man, this
motherfucking dead.

Let's fucking kill him.
Let's fucking kill this fuckingdead.
Let's fucking kill this fuckingdead, dead, dead, dead, dead,
dead, dead, dead.
Shit, sorry, man, go ahead, I'mfucking losing.
Go ahead.

Remi (40:48):
And I just feel like I need to point out that they're
doing this conversation inMarty's driveway, which is like
in the middle of a suburbancul-de-sac, like.
This is not in the middle ofnowhere in a secluded area.
These guys are yelling thisright in front of Marty's home,

(41:10):
armed with a baseball bat, alongwith two large knives.
The group then heads over toBobby's place to pick him up.
After a long, uncomfortable carride, the group finally arrives
at the Florida Everglades,where Bobby and Allie exit their
vehicle, then walk severalyards away from the rest of the
group to start fooling aroundWhile the others ready

(41:33):
themselves.
Heather is instructed to ensurethat Bobby doesn't suspect
anything first, then signal theothers to attack by shouting Are
there any alligators in there?
When the time is right, heatherdoes as she's told, trailed by
Donnie who will attack first,while Marty waits nearby ready

(41:53):
to back him up.
Once Heather gives the signal,donnie lunges at Bobby from
behind, stabbing him in the back, while Heather retreats to the
car and huddles in a fetalposition, followed closely
behind by Allie.

Ashley (42:07):
And throughout this entire ordeal, Heather remains
huddled in the back of the car,rocking back and forth with her
hands covered over her ears.

Remi (42:17):
With Bobby still reeling from his injury, Marty moves in
from the shadows and he andDonnie take turns repeatedly
stabbing Bobby from differentangles as he begs for mercy.
Bobby tries to flee, but he canonly stagger to Allie's vehicle
and collapse before Marty slitshis throat and Kaufman bashes

(42:38):
his head in with a baseball bat.
Kaufman then orders Derek outof the car and forces him to
help throw Bobby's barelybreathing body into the canal
for the gators to finish him off.

Ashley (42:51):
I know Bobby Kent was not a good person.
He clearly had some intenseanger issues and tormented
several people in this group,but no one deserves what
happened to him.
This is brutal and horrific.

Remi (43:07):
I will be upfront and say that I do believe that Bobby
Kent deserved to have legalramifications for his actions,
but according to this film,bobby lived through basically
all of this and died a very,very slow death, and it's just
something that I couldn'timagine and I wouldn't wish upon

(43:30):
anyone.

Ashley (43:31):
While begging his best friend to help and profusely
apologizing for whatever it washe did wrong, because at this
point, he had no clue why thiswas happening to him.
He just viewed it as a typicalnight out with my friends, and
now I am being brutally,brutally murdered.

Remi (43:50):
And I don't want to seem like I'm diminishing any of the
horrible things that Bobby Kentperpetrated on this group, but
just putting myself in thesituation of someone going out
to hang out with their friendsone night your best friend and
then this coming out of nowhere,I can't imagine the amount of

(44:11):
emotions and physical pain thatwas going through him at this
time.
That went on for far too long.
Afterwards, the groupreconvenes at North Beach to get
their alibi straight, untilMarty realizes that he dropped
his knife sheath back at thecrime scene.
Afterwards, the groupreconvenes at North Beach to get
their alibis straight, untilMarty realizes that he dropped
his knife sheath back at thecrime scene.
After retrieving the sheathwith Kaufman and checking on the

(44:34):
body, they return to NorthBeach only to discover that the
others have already begun tounravel.

Where are the knives?
I threw them in the ocean.
You threw them in the ocean,you threw them where in the
ocean unravel.
So we've been talking aboutgetting caught and who did what?
Well, that's a great talk tohave.

(45:03):
I think we need to have thattalk.
By the way, what have youdecided, you doper?
What do you think?
Did you kill that motherfucker?
No, I mean, look, I stabbed thedude.
I admit that.
Alright, everyone saw mefucking do that, but I didn't.
I didn't actually kill him.
I mean, he was still aliveafter I finished sticking him.

(45:23):
I mean, you saw the fucker runand you, you know I didn't kill
him.
Oh, who helped me drown thisson of a bitch?
Then he was dead already.
Oh, he was dead.
I mean, he was so far fuckinggone, man, I just picked him up
to help you move him.
I didn't, I didn't fucking killanybody.

Ashley (45:45):
I think this is the first time that these teenagers
realize that they are way overtheir heads, but they are still
too dumb enough to realize thatthey are 100% all going to get
caught and they are 100% allculpable.

Remi (46:02):
I mean, I was an idiot as a teenager.
I would not have been able toplan out a crime or anything
like this.
And in the scene we're justwatching again, it shows in a
wide shot just how loud they'reall talking at the beach, like
someone could be walking theirdog and overhear them very
easily and me and my friendsused to joke that this film
should have just been called hownot to perpetrate a Crime,

(46:24):
because these kids did not knowwhat they were doing.
and I think in this scene thegravity of the situation is
finally setting in, but it istoo late.
Later that night, marty leavesa message on Bobby's home
answering machine.
In a half-baked attempt toavoid arousing any suspicion and

(46:45):
you and me were talking aboutthis a minute ago, ashley, just
kind of wondering what thethought process was there he
calls up basically saying hey,bobby, it's me.
You told me to call you when Igot home.
This is what I'm doing.
And his dad answers immediatelyand he just hangs up.

Ashley (47:01):
I left this out of my portion when I talk about it,
but he did do this and histhought process was after long
nights of them hanging outtogether, they usually called
each other to say that they bothgot home okay.
But Marty elects to leave amessage and identifies himself
by his first and last name,which Bobby's dad immediately

(47:22):
thinks is weird, because he'slike why is Marty introducing
himself by his full legal nameand then just hangs up when he
picks up?

Remi (47:32):
It's teenage logic.
You're thinking you're coveringyour tracks when you're just
making it look so much worse foryou.

Ashley (47:39):
It's also four in the morning and the first thing the
dad does when he gets this callis gets up and checks in his
son's room, sees he's missingand then just is like whatever,
they're probably just up toshenanigans and goes back to bed
but this call would raise somany questions like, hey, I just
left you, but I'm leaving amessage.

Remi (47:59):
Now it's several hours later.
I don't normally do this.
I'm leaving my first and lastname and Bobby isn't there.
It's immediately going to raisea ton of red flags.

Ashley (48:10):
It's a stupid decision on top of so many stupid
decisions this whole group hadmade this entire night.

Remi (48:24):
Well, in the days ahead, the weight of the group's
actions begins to weigh heavilyon several members, leading to
Derek confiding in a friendabout his minimal involvement in
what had transpired, whileelsewhere, lisa casually reveals
the entire crime to her friend,courtney, like a complete
psychopath.

Ashley (48:40):
Which is the Pizza Hut girl.

You murdered Bobby Kent.
I didn't say I murdered anybody, I mean they killed him.
I wouldn't even say theymurdered him.
I mean he was fighting back.
He was yeah, I mean he wastrying to get away and begging
Marty to you know, like sayingI'm sorry, please, I'll do
anything, just don't kill meRight, when he said that Marty

(49:07):
just walked up to him andwhacked him in the heart with
his diving knife, the wholething was just totally, totally
extreme.

Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Intervi (49:16):
Oh wait, you want somebody to take
you out there to move a body?
I don't Anybody.

That's crazy enough to do?
That is just Fine, fine, wedon't Anybody that's crazy
enough to do.
That is just Fine, fine.
We won't go move it, we'll justgo out there and we'll see if
the tire tracks are gone.

Ashley (49:31):
No way, lisa, no way.

Remi (49:34):
And I just want to say bravo to Claudia in this
situation.

Ashley (49:39):
I love her response of just Lisa.
Do you not realize what youjust did?
This is very, very, very, verybad.

Remi (49:49):
To make matters worse, Allie has also begun posing
hypothetical questions aboutreporting a murder to the police
anonymously to her mother, andwe also get a brief glimpse of
Allie tending to her baby, whomshe has been neglecting for the
entire film but has mentionedonce or twice.

Ashley (50:11):
I don't even mention that she had a baby, but yeah,
she did and she basically gavebirth and just gave it to her
parents to raise and continuedon with life as usual.
On with life as usual.

Remi (50:23):
Well, the police do in fact receive an anonymous tip
soon after, leading to thearrests of the entire gang in
the ensuing days ahead.
Surprisingly, the anonymoustipster is later revealed to
have been Heather and not Allie,as we had originally assumed.

(50:44):
And a quick side note here theofficer who apprehends Marty in
the scene where he is arrestedis Frank Ariza, the same police
detective who arrested the realMarty Puccio back in 1993.

Ashley (50:59):
I also stumbled across something that the judge in the
film is the actual judge whopresided over most of these
trials.
Did you come across that?

Remi (51:08):
They're in court very briefly, and if it is the same
judge, he does not have anylines or anything.
Just before the closing credits, we learn the fates of everyone
who had been involved withBobby's murder.
Heather Swallers received aseven-year sentence for her
involvement, while Derek Ziverkowas sentenced to 11 years and

(51:33):
Allie Willis received 40.
Donnie Semenik, Derek Kaufmanand Lisa Connolly were each
sentenced to life in prison,while Marty Puccio was sentenced
to death by electric chair, andthat was Larry Clark's Bully.
So, Ashley, do you have anyinitial thoughts after hearing

(51:57):
the rundown of the film?

Ashley (51:59):
Without saying anything that'll give away the verdict.
The primary question that Ihave in my mind is based on the
intense experience I had readingabout this crime in written
form.
It is a very graphic book thatdetails the murder in a very,
very, very long chapter withvery graphic details, and I was

(52:21):
curious, as I was reading it,how that was going to be
depicted on screen and if it wasas hard of a watch as it was to
read it.

Remi (52:30):
It is an extremely hard watch.
It's a lot of scared teens whokind of didn't know what they
were doing and the scene isdepicted like that.
The emotional weight of whatwas occurring was portrayed very
well.

Ashley (52:51):
One thing this case made me think about is the power of
peer pressure and groupthink.
If there was one or two peopleexcept for I would argue Heather
or Cousin Derek, I think ifthey weren't involved, this
would have still happened.
But any other participant, ifyou take out one of them, I do
not think this crime would havehappened that day.

(53:12):
They fed off each other.
Let's get into thepost-production, because you
have repeatedly teased me forseveral weeks that it is fucking
bug nuts.

Remi (53:24):
This is the craziest post-production for any film
that I have done on this podcast, and I would be shocked if this
title is ever taken from Bully.
Bully was originally slated fora wide theatrical release, but

(53:46):
these plans were derailed whenthe film received the dreaded
NC-17 rating from the MPAA.

Ashley (53:51):
That's a kiss of death right there.

Remi (53:53):
It truly is.
Larry Clark had hoped for an Rrating, since many major theater
chains refused to show NC-17films, but Clark still chose to
press forward and released theunrated version of the film on
July 13, 2001, in a total of sixtheaters.

Ashley (54:14):
So he didn't try to cut things out to drop the rating,
like directors usually do.
Nope, is this movie still ratedan NC-17?

Remi (54:23):
I believe it is unrated, so he chose to have it proceed
unrated, as opposed to havingthe NC-17 rating, which is
basically like an NC-17 rating.

Ashley (54:33):
And you said Lionsgate distributed this.
I'm surprised they didn'tdemand that some things be taken
out.

Remi (54:39):
I guess it was up to Larry Clark's discretion.
So maybe Larry Clark had enoughcontrol to be like nope, we're
just going to release it as is.
But that is like the kiss ofdeath for your movie.

Ashley (54:51):
I'm very surprised it was not re-edited.

Remi (54:55):
I do need to point out that his first film, kids, was
also rated NC-17, but it didreceive enough buzz and whatnot
to be a moderate success, atleast critically.
This one not so much.
Screenwriter David McKenna, whowe will be discussing in our

(55:17):
American History X episode, bediscussing in our American
History X episode, wasapparently unhappy with the
finished version of the film, sohe chose to have his name
removed and instead is creditedunder the pseudonym of Zachary
Long.
So he hated this movie so muchhe said take my name off of it.
Bully received a 54% approvalrating on Rotten Tomatoes, with

(55:41):
a critical consensus that reads.
With its lingering shots ofnaked teenage bodies, bully
feels more sordidly exploitivethan realistic.
Much of the film's criticismstemmed from the numerous
prolonged scenes of gratuitousnudity and graphic sex depicted

(56:03):
on screen by primarilyadolescent cast members, and I
agree with all of thosecriticisms.
All of the gratuitous sex andeverything could be removed from
this film and it would not haveaffected anything in my opinion
.

Ashley (56:17):
Probably would have dropped that rating down too.

Remi (56:20):
Yes, it could have actually gotten a wide release
if you had chosen to remove allof this unnecessary, underaged
sex bullshit.
Mr Clark Bully was nominatedfor the Golden Lion at the 58th
Annual Venice International FilmFestival, but lost out to Mira
Nahr's Monsoon Wedding.

(56:41):
I've seen that.
It's a lovely movie, verydifferent than Bully.

Ashley (56:45):
Never seen or heard of it.

Remi (56:46):
It's not a true crime.
We won't be discussing it onthis podcast, unfortunately, but
I do recommend Monsoon WeddingAttempting to up the ante even
further.
Clark's follow-up film, kenPark, was even more sexually
explicit and violent than Bullyor Kids, and includes a fully

(57:07):
uncut scene of a high schoolermasturbating to completion from
autoerotic asphyxiation.
As a result, ken Park wasbanned in Australia for its
graphic sexual content.
In 2002, clark was detained byLondon police officers and spent
several hours in a holding cellafter punching and attempting

(57:31):
to strangle Ken Park's UKdistributor, hamish McAlpin,
leading to the film beingabruptly withdrawn from the
London Film Festival.

Ashley (57:41):
This guy has a lot of unresolved issues.

Remi (57:44):
McAlpin claimed that he didn't provoke Clark and that
the altercation arose from adisagreement regarding Israel
and the Middle East.

Ashley (57:54):
Still very salient to this day.

Remi (57:58):
As of this podcast.
Ken Park is Clark's last filmto feature any professional
actors, and I have seen Ken Park.
I do not recommend Ken Park toanyone on any level, and the
scene that I discussed earlieris possibly the worst scene I've
ever seen in any film everpossibly the worst scene I've

(58:20):
ever seen in any film ever.
So good job, Larry Clark.
Brad Renfro experienceddifficulties in his private life
, including numerous arrests forpublic intoxication, driving
without a valid driver's licenseand driving under the influence
.
Unfortunately, Renfro's battlewith heroin and methadone

(58:40):
addiction inevitably led to hisdeath at the age of 25 from
acute heroin and morphineintoxication.
Rachel Miner dated Renfroduring and after the production
of Bully.
She was diagnosed with multiplesclerosis in 2010 and has since
become an advocate forrepresentation of disabled

(59:00):
characters.
In September of 2017, Miner wasnamed the executive director of
the non-profit organizationRandom Acts, which aims to
change the world one random actof kindness at a time.

Ashley (59:14):
Aw, I like that.

Remi (59:16):
Nick Stahl went on to star in two seasons of the HBO
series Carnival, starting in2003, and had a minor role as
that Yellow Bastard in the 2005film, sin City.
In the years that followed,stahl struggled with addiction
and alcoholism, which led to himspending time in rehabilitation

(59:39):
facilities in 2007 and 2009.
In May of 2012, stahl wasreported missing by his wife
after checking himself into yetanother rehab without informing
anyone.
That same year, on December27th, stahl was arrested in an
adult video store in Hollywood,california.

(01:00:00):
Stahl was arrested in an adultvideo store in Hollywood,
california, on suspicion ofcommitting a lewd act, but no
charges were filed due toinsufficient evidence.
Stahl was arrested in Hollywoodagain the following year for
allegedly possessingmethamphetamines.
In 2017, stahl stated in aninterview at the Dallas Comic
Show that he had moved to Texasand was taking a hiatus from

(01:00:22):
acting to concentrate on hisfamily and sobriety.
Stahl returned to acting withthe 2019 film, the Murder of
Nicole Brown Simpson, which wewill not be covering on our
podcast, which currently holdsan impressive 0% rating on
Rotten Tomatoes.
As of 2021, stahl hadreportedly stayed sober over the

(01:00:45):
past four years, so that is abit of good news.
In 2010, michael Pitt was castas Jimmy Darmody in the HBO
series Boardwalk Empire, but hischaracter was killed off in the
second season, allegedly due toPitt's behavior on set.
Pitt's departure from the showjust so happened to come only a

(01:01:07):
month after Pitt was fired byhis own agent because he was
quote-unquote really difficulton set and otherwise.
Pitt's career never trulyrecovered after this, and in
July of 2022, he was arrestedand charged with assault and
petty larceny for allegedlytaking another man's phone after

(01:01:28):
repeatedly punching him in thehead.
That September, pitt wasstrapped to a stretcher and
hospitalized following a publicoutburst in which Pitt
reportedly started throwingrandom items from a New York
City rooftop at unsuspectingpedestrians walking below.
Pitt was deemed emotionallydisturbed after the incident,

(01:01:50):
but no charges were ever filed.

Ashley (01:01:53):
All these cases are just illustrating so well how
Hollywood will just eat up youngactors and spit them out.

Remi (01:02:03):
Seriously, this is all just like the worst things that
could happen to child actors.
But on a more positive note,Daniel Franzese attained
widespread notoriety after beingcast as Damian Lee in the 2004
film Mean Girls, which you and Iboth love.

Ashley (01:02:23):
Does anyone not love Mean Girls?

Remi (01:02:26):
That is what I remember Daniel from.
More than Bully, he was thischaracter.
He was great in this film.
Daniel later became an officialambassador for the Elizabeth
Taylor AIDS Foundation and wasinvited by GLAAD to host their
2015 gala in San Francisco.

Ashley (01:02:44):
And we talked about this .
She founded this shortly aftershe became the mother-in-law to
a Getty.

Remi (01:02:52):
Franzese is also an ambassador for Lambda Legal,
which is an American civilrights organization impacting
litigation, social education andpublic policy work, focusing on
lesbian, gay, bisexual andtransgender communities, as well
as people living with HIV andAIDS.
Now let's talk about BijouPhillips.

(01:03:15):
In 2004, Bijou met that 70sShow actor, danny Masterson, at
a celebrity poker tournament inLas Vegas, and the two quickly
bonded over their shared beliefin Scientology.
Bijou and Masterson dated forseven years following this
initial encounter and were latermarried in October of 2011.

(01:03:37):
The couple starred in severalfilms together throughout the
years, including Made for EachOther, the Bridge to Nowhere,
wake and a 2011 episode of Fox'sRaising Hope.
How delightful.
In September of 2009, eightyears after John Phillips' death
, his eldest daughter, mackenzie, released her memoir titled

(01:04:00):
High on Arrival, alleging thather father had engaged in a
decade-long incestuousrelationship with her.
Mackenzie stated that thisrelationship began when she was
18 years old, when her fatherraped her in a motel room while
she was passed out after a drugbinge.
Mackenzie went on to marry aman named Jeff Sessler when she

(01:04:24):
was 19 years old, but continuedto use drugs and have consensual
sex with her father for yearsto come.

Ashley (01:04:32):
And we say consensual here with a big capital air
quote.

Remi (01:04:37):
The relationship only ended when Mackenzie became
pregnant and feared that thebaby may belong to her father,
leading to Phillips paying forher abortion.
Mackenzie's half-sister, Bijou,has stated that Mackenzie
informed her of the sexual abusewhen she was 13 years old,
which had a devastating effecton Bijou's teenage years, which

(01:04:59):
had a devastating effect onBijou's teenage years.
However, in 2009, after therelease of Mackenzie's memoir,
Bijou defended her fatheragainst the allegations, stating
I'm 29 now.
I've talked to everyone who wasaround during that time.
I've asked the hard questions.
I do not believe my sister.
Our father was many things.

(01:05:19):
This is not one of them.

Ashley (01:05:22):
It sounds to me, especially because she said she
was informed of this abuse whenshe was 13 years old, that this
statement denying the abuse iseither something she gave
willingly to try to circumventany sort of negative public
attention, or it's something theChurch of Scientology helped
craft.

Remi (01:05:43):
And from my research.
Mackenzie's story is backed upby several people, not from
firsthand accounts but witnesseswho saw inappropriate behavior
to some degree.

Ashley (01:05:57):
And Mackenzie Phillips.
I mean she's not like awell-known actress, but if you
see her face, like stop andGoogle her right now.
She looks familiar.
You've seen her in things.
I'm actually re-watching ERright now and she was in an
episode we watched yesterday.

Remi (01:06:12):
Five years later, on February 14th 2014, bijou gave
birth to Fianna, her and DannyMasterson's only child together.
In November of 2017, elliotPage, who was going by Ellen
Page at the time, released adamning statement accusing
director Brett Ratner ofhomophobic harassment while they

(01:06:33):
were filming X-Men the LastStand back in 2006.
Page's bravery inspired DanielFranzese to write his own post
on Facebook, revealing theharrowing harassment he faced
from Bijou Phillips while on theset of Bully.
Franzese claimed shebody-shamed me and ridiculed me

(01:06:54):
about my sexuality andphysically assaulted me.
I was scared and closeted andfeared for my job.
It started with a lot of eyerolling whenever we spoke, but
escalated when we did a castshoot for the poster.
As we were shooting, she keptloudly saying are you gay?
And laughing.

(01:07:15):
She continued to say are yougay?
Like 10 times over and overagain, making sure to be loud
enough for everyone to hear.
I reluctantly told her I was bi, which, at the time, was how I
was choosing to identify.
She cackled and said ha, he'sbi.
And then, when I showed up towork the next day in front of

(01:07:35):
the crew, she was screaming ohlook, the bi guys here.
Franzese went on to say thatsome of his co-stars, including
Michael Pitt and Brad Renfro,did defend him by telling her to
shut up, but Bijou continued toverbally berate Franzese in
spite of all of this.

Ashley (01:07:52):
This is so horrific and, you know, no one on set stood
up to her because she was likethe it girl of the movie.

Remi (01:08:00):
Exactly.
It would have been like tellingParis Hilton to shut up or Kim
Kardashian, that sort of thing.
Franzese additionally recountedfilming a scene that required
him to take off his shirt,prompting Bijou to break
character mid-scene and point toFranzese while yelling Ew Gross
.
Franzese continued by admittingthat Bijou was eventually

(01:08:25):
convinced into apologizing aftera long talk with her co-star,
nick Stahl, whom she was datingat the time.
Responding to Franzese'saccusations, bijou released an
apology through TMZ which statedI don't remember that time.

(01:08:53):
Well, those years are a blur.
Bijou released an apologythrough TMZ which stated I
thought I was to him made me sosad.
I am mortified by this behaviorand have contacted Daniel and
apologized to him privately.
I am not and have never beenhomophobic.
I have nothing but love for theLGBTQ community and Daniel.

Ashley (01:09:14):
I will say there have been way worse public statements
and apologies than this.

Remi (01:09:28):
Well, that same month, actress Heather Matarazzo
claimed that Bijou made repeatedattempts to get her to consume
drugs while they were filmingHostile Part 2, despite
Matarazzo being sober afterhaving a history of addiction.
Matarazzo also alleged thatBijou promised that she was
going to make sure that sherelapsed while making the film,
but when her attempts wereunsuccessful, Bijou responded by

(01:09:49):
holding Matarazzo against awall and choking her for around
15 seconds.

Ashley (01:09:54):
Jesus Christ, what is with this girl?

Remi (01:10:00):
In March of 2017, three women filed sexual.
Bixler Zavala tweeted thatMasterson had sexually assaulted

(01:10:23):
his wife and that the songIncurably Innocent from the 2017
album Interalia is about theincident.
Like Masterson and his wife,his accusers had all been
members of the Church ofScientology during the time of
their assaults, which strictlyforbids members from reporting

(01:10:45):
fellow Scientologists to thepolice for any reason.

Ashley (01:10:51):
Especially when they're celebrities.

Remi (01:10:54):
On June 17th 2020, masterson was officially charged
with three counts of rape aftera three-year investigation,
which began in 2017.
On May 31st 2023, masterson wasconvicted of raping two women
in 2003, with the charges from athird woman resulting in a hung

(01:11:16):
jury.
Masterson was sentenced to 30years to life on September 7th
2023, with his wife, bijouPhillips, filing for divorce
less than two weeks later.
And that was the full story ofLarry Clark's bully.

Ashley (01:11:33):
Woof, let's all take a big deep breath.
Somehow, this aftermath was waymore intense than anything you
talked about in the movie I knowright, this has literally never
happened with any film we'vedone before.

Remi (01:11:48):
All of the stuff with this cast and crew before and after
and during this film is fuckinginsanity.
But the story itself I amcurious about the accuracy there
and I think, ashley, that mightbe where you come in to help me
with that area.

Ashley (01:12:04):
All right, let's get into it.
Bobby Kent was in the thirdgrade when his Iranian immigrant

(01:12:25):
parents, fred and Farah, movedhim and his older sister, layla,
to Hollywood, florida, insearch of a better life.
Fred was a stockbroker, valuedhard work and education and
encouraged his children to playinstruments and sports.
Bobby quickly developed afriendship with Marty Puccio,

(01:12:48):
another third grader in theneighborhood.
Marty was the middle child bornto Martin Sr, a salesman for a
production company in Miami, andVeronica, a part-time
receptionist at a doctor'soffice.
When not at work, veronica madesure her sons were actively
involved in sports, karate andchurch.
Bobby came across as arespectful, well-behaved boy,
but Marty began to see adifferent side of him as their

(01:13:10):
friendship progressed.
In middle school he startedhating Marty and calling him a
queer whenever he wore hisfavorite cape while they played.
As he aged, his internal angerescalated to explosive rages,
often directed at Marty.
Each time he assaulted hisfriend, he quickly apologized
and assured him they were asclose as brothers.

(01:13:32):
The time between these attacksdiminished once Marty's natural
talent for surfing emerged.

Remi (01:13:39):
According to the film, he almost could have gone pro.

Ashley (01:13:43):
He was very, very good, which actually caused Bobby to
resent him because he wasn't asskilled on the waves.
But he still tagged along inhopes of impressing the older
teens that Marty wasestablishing friendships with
Whenever they noticed Bobby'sanger towards Marty.
For example, there was one timewhen Bobby was like go get me a

(01:14:03):
snack.
And Marty asked for money andBobby responded by just punching
him in the face until Martyjust used his own cash to go get
whatever food Bobby wanted.
The older server kids askedMarty, why are you putting up
with this?
And each time Marty justshrugged it off and said well,
they've been friends since theywere little kids.

(01:14:26):
Marty grew moodier.
Into adolescence.
He started to beg his parentsto move, but wouldn't ever tell
them why, likely because he wasembarrassed that he was being
bullied by his best friend.
By the start of the eighthgrade, both boys' parents were
just ready for them to spendless time together.
Marty's parents actuallytransferred him to a different

(01:14:46):
school, which did seem tobenefit both of them.
Marty was less sullen, whileBobby was more focused on his
studies.
Unfortunately, the separationdidn't last long.
Come high school, marty optedto transfer to South Broward
High, since classes started twohours later, which left him free
of academic commitments, comeprime surf hour.

(01:15:08):
Following their reunion, bobbyintroduced him to weightlifting
and shared his secret to bulkingup steroids.

Remi (01:15:16):
Now, according to my research, it said that Bobby was
bigger than Marty.
I've never seen a picture ofthe real people?
Was Bobby like a biggerathletic steroids type guy and
Marty was more of like a scrawnylittle guy, or what was the
dynamic here?

Ashley (01:15:34):
I think, at least initially, these are ninth grade
boys that are spending alltheir free time in the gym
lifting weights using steroids.
So it wasn't long before Martyalso started to bulk up.
But the extra weight caused himto be less agile on the waves
and he started to lose thoserelationships with his surfer

(01:15:56):
friends, which meant his onlysource of connection was Bobby.

Remi (01:16:01):
You don't see bulky surfers out there.
You kind of gotta have a nimbleslim build to you to get
through the waves.

Ashley (01:16:11):
Unsurprisingly, Bobby's steroid use further fueled his
violent tendencies.
Once Marty started coming homewith visible bruises, his
parents actually agreed to sendhim to live with his aunt in
upstate New York.
They still weren't aware of thedynamic between the two boys,
but they could tell somethingwas wrong.
Despite the plan being forMarty to finish school in New

(01:16:34):
York, he asked to come home fourmonths later.

Remi (01:16:37):
Why.

Ashley (01:16:38):
It's not really clearly explained in the book, but if
you put yourself in his shoeshe's a 16 year old kid.
That's like the time in yourlife when all that matters to
you is friends.
So I imagine he went to thisbrand new school, not to mention
this brand new environment.
You're taken out of Florida,where you've lived your whole
life, and you're dropped inupstate New York.

(01:17:00):
He just probably had a reallyhard time adjusting.

Remi (01:17:03):
As someone who grew up with parents in both New York
and Florida, I can say it is apretty drastic difference
between the two.

Ashley (01:17:13):
And I do know he went during the winter months, so I
bet the weather was just fuckinghorrendous.

Remi (01:17:18):
That is the worst time to possibly be living in upstate
New York.

Ashley (01:17:24):
Well, whenever Bobby wasn't using Marty as his
personal punching bag, the twohappily mistreated other
innocent victims.
Their favorite targets werekids with intellectual
disabilities.
They could frequently be foundtaunting other students outside
the special education room.
When one got mad, they wouldslap him until he ran away

(01:17:45):
crying.
But their favorite game waseven worse.
When they spotted a kid walkinghome or waiting for the bus
alone, they invited him to playa game of catch, which consisted
of them taking turns chucking afootball as hard as they could

(01:18:08):
at the victim's head, while theother tried to catch it as it
bounced off their punishments.
So they were both bullies whenthey both fed off each other and
horrifically treated other kidsand sometimes adults with known
intellectual disabilities thatthey viewed as weak.
Bobby developed a bit of apenchalance for pornography come

(01:18:33):
mid-adolescence, but not justany kind.
For Bobby, the more violent thebetter.
When Marty tried to look away,at least initially, bobby
grabbed him by the hair, yankedhis head up and forced him to
watch.
As Bobby's fascination withpornography grew, he decided he
wanted to make his own movie.
Even though he continued tofrequently call Marty homophobic

(01:18:58):
slurs, he was only interestedin making a gay porno.
In search of potential stars,the duo started frequenting a
gay cabaret and disco where theypretended to be a couple.
Bobby even convinced Marty toperform on stage and, to his
surprise, he loved it.
One day, while working out atthe YMCA, marty met 42-year-old

(01:19:18):
Harry Suter and invited him tothe cabaret that night.
While there, harry wasintroduced to Bobby and agreed
to think about starring in thefilm.
When the idea was floated byhim, harry grew quite fond of
Marty the more they talked andof course his kindness was
exploited.
Marty claimed his parentsdidn't support his lifestyle and

(01:19:39):
charged him an arm and a legfor even the most basic of
necessities.

Remi (01:19:44):
How old are they at this point in time?

Ashley (01:19:47):
I believe Marty and Bobby are about 17.
It's crazy that the parents ofall of these kids have no idea
what their children are up to noidea what their children are up
to.

Remi (01:20:04):
In the film, the only parent that is portrayed as
being semi-worried about what'sgoing on is Lisa's mother.

Ashley (01:20:08):
Well, to try to help the young kid, Harry loaned Marty
$300 and agreed to have phonesex with him three times a week
for $25.
So I'm assuming this is whoMarty was supposed to be on the
phone having phone sex with atthat opening credit scene of

(01:20:35):
this movie Each time Bobby andMarty came to collect their
weekly fees, appliancesmysteriously disappeared from
Harry's apartment.
When he finally got up the nerveto confront the teens, bobby
flew into a rage and repeatedlypunched him in the face.
Harry did call the cops a fewtimes, but never filed a formal

(01:20:56):
complaint.
Eventually, finding himselfshort on funds, Harry agreed to
star in Rough Boys, bobby andMarty's homemade pornographic
movie.

Remi (01:21:07):
They even had a title.

Ashley (01:21:09):
And they actually rented a studio space and bought some
film equipment for the shoot,but they didn't bother to write
a script or really even thinkabout any type of storyline, or
really even think about any typeof storyline.

Remi (01:21:20):
I mean, the fact that they're 17 and they even rented
a space to do this in is kind ofastonishing.

Ashley (01:21:28):
Well, they also failed to tell Harry that he was going
to be the film's sole star.
The timid Harry showed up onset and did everything the boys
asked of him, even as the actsbecame increasingly degrading,
so much so that I am not goingto repeat here what they made
this man do.

Remi (01:21:47):
This had to have been the pornography that Bobby was
making Allie watch before hesexually assaulted her.

Ashley (01:21:56):
Oh it was.
He turns out to be very proudof this movie.
To probably no one's surprise,harry wasn't paid a dime for his
participation.
Bobby did try to sell Ruff Boysto some local porno shops
around South Florida, but no onewas interested given the poor
video quality and generalcontent of what was filmed

(01:22:20):
quality and general content ofwhat was filmed.

Remi (01:22:27):
Okay, a 17-year-old kid that has produced his own
bootleg gay pornography and istrying to sell it to local porn
shops that's pretty depraved.

Ashley (01:22:33):
The relationship with Harry finally came to an end
after the boys purposefullybotched some yard work that he
hired them to do.
He never saw or spoke to themagain.
Marty dropped out of highschool midway through his junior
year, which was a big red flagto Bobby's parents.
Bobby promised to spend lesstime with Marty and got a job at

(01:22:56):
a deli.
Within two weeks he convincedthe manager to hire Marty and
schedule all their shiftstogether.
This is where the 19-year-oldswere working when they met
18-year-old Lisa Connelly and17-year-old Allie Willis in
December 1992.
Lisa and Allie met at Catholicschool when they were five.

(01:23:17):
Lisa's dad divorced her mom notlong after.
He stayed in touch with hisdaughter for a while, but
contact gradually decreasedafter he remarried and started a
new family.
While Lisa's mom struggled tofinancially support her daughter
, allie's parents wereincredibly well off.
The girls remained best friendseven after their personality

(01:23:39):
differences became increasinglyapparent.

Remi (01:23:42):
They did seem like total opposites, personality-wise, in
the movie.

Ashley (01:23:49):
Allie was pretty popular and rich.
While Lisa was overweight,self-conscious and shy, allie
was also a bit of a wild child.
She ran away from home when shewas 14, and during this time
she was actually briefly luredinto a high-end sex trafficking
ring.
In October 1989, her and afriend were repeatedly raped at

(01:24:12):
knife point by their oldergangbanger boyfriends.
After the men were sentenced to12 and 18 years in prison, she
became terrified that they wouldescape or send someone after
her.
She began covering her windowswith blankets, had a constant
rotating group of friends, spendthe night and dropped out of
school, thinking all she neededwas a change of scenery.

(01:24:36):
Her stepdad sold his electricalcontracting business and moved
his wife and daughter to PalmBay, florida, in 1991.
Allie kept in touch with Lisaand her other friends through
weekend visits back to Hollywood.
Despite always doing well inschool, lisa also dropped out in
11th grade and got a job at adry cleaning business.

(01:24:56):
She always did have a lot offriends, but never the one thing
she longed for A boyfriend, oreven a date for that matter.
After spending a long lazyafternoon trying on swimsuits at
the mall in December 1992,allie and Lisa grabbed some
lunch at the deli where Martyand Bobby worked.

(01:25:18):
Bobby was instantly attractedto Allie and asked if the girls
wanted to party with them whentheir shift ended.
Even though they thought Bobbywas a bit of a jackass, based on
a comment he made about Martybeing into bigger girls, they
agreed to meet them at the beachin three hours.
After ignoring the girls whileserving for a bit, marty

(01:25:42):
announced it was time to party.
The foursome hopped intoBobby's car and drove around
getting liquored up and stoned.
The night ended with bothcouples having sex in the car.
From that moment on, lisa knewshe was in love and told her mom
all about her new boyfriend thenext morning.

Remi (01:26:05):
That is in the film as well.
She literally tells her mom shehas a new boyfriend the
following morning and from howthe film depicted it, none of
that had really been discussed.
They just kind of hooked up atthe time.

Ashley (01:26:19):
The book opens with a description of Lisa's teenage
bedroom wall, and it's basicallyjust like centerfolds of early
90s Tiger Beat teenageheartthrobs like plastered
against every open space, whileshe just stares at them and
wishes she had a boyfriend.

(01:26:39):
So she was just really, reallylooking for love and Marty came
around at just the right time.
Lisa immediately startedspending all of her free time
with Marty.
She even purchased a pager soshe could respond to his every
beck and call.
After about a month of dating,her mom overheard a phone call

(01:27:02):
involving Lisa instructing Martyto never hit her again.
Her mom flipped when she sawher daughter's bruised and
swollen face and screamed atMarty over the phone.
He responded by calling themboth fat pigs and hanging up
Furious at her mom forintervening.
Lisa packed a bag and went tostay at Marty's for the weekend
while his parents were out oftown.

(01:27:22):
To her surprise, bobby wasalready there when she arrived
with a friend.
Over the next 48 hours, bobbydid everything he could to
facilitate an orgy.
He prevented Lisa's friend fromleaving, fed them a constant
stream of weed and alcohol andproudly debuted Rough Boys.
Lisa's friend finally found anopportunity to exit, while Bobby

(01:27:47):
pummeled Marty's face becausehe left a loaf of bread on the
counter, causing it to go stale.
Lisa had been dating Marty forsix months, come late June 1993,
but the relationship wasobviously far from a happy one.
Marty treated her horribly,often calling her fat and
forcing her to strip naked whileBobby laughed and egged him on.

(01:28:10):
On several occasions he beather with a leather weightlifting
belt and forced her to have athreesome with him and his best
friend.
The boys even threatened tobeat and possibly rape two of
her friends when one got sick inBobby's car one drunken night.
Despite the mistreatment, lisawas blinded by love and

(01:28:30):
convinced Marty only treated herso cruelly because of Bobby's
influence.

Remi (01:28:36):
What you're saying is filling in a lot of the random
scenes that I didn't reallyunderstand.
What was going on, like whenBobby came out, when Marty and
Lisa were having sex and hestarts hitting her with a belt
out of nowhere.
I did not understand what washappening in that scene, but
these details are explaining alot.

Ashley (01:28:56):
How it's described in the book is that Marty was
always pretty cold to Lisa.
How it's described in the bookis that Marty was always pretty
cold to Lisa, but the physicaland verbal abuse was out of this
world when Bobby was in theroom.
So that leads Lisa to believethat it's Bobby's fault that
Marty's treating her this way.
He really really does love her,but he feels pressured to treat

(01:29:17):
her like shit because of Bobby.

Remi (01:29:20):
That aspect of the relationship is not shown in the
film.
It does not show Marty beingmeaner to Lisa whenever Bobby is
around.

Ashley (01:29:30):
Well, lisa actually decided to test this theory and
came up with a plan to get Bobbyout of her hair for a bit.
One day she decided toorchestrate a reunion between
him and Allie.

Remi (01:29:42):
I was wondering why she called Bobby up to hang out with
Allie in the film.
Again, it kind of is notexplained.

Ashley (01:29:50):
Lisa basically calls Allie down and is like oh, do
you remember Bobby?
He really, really, really wantsto see you again.
Why don't you come down for aweekend and let's all hang out?
And Allie thinks it sounds fine.
She didn't really like Bobby,even though later, as she's an
adult, she tries to claim thather and Bobby were in this like

(01:30:11):
serious relationship and he wasso abusive to her which he did
end up doing something horrificto Allie.
But their relationship it wasjust a couple hookups at best.
But regardless, lisa callsAllie and says come hang out for
the weekend, it'll be fun.
And Allie drives down.

Remi (01:30:29):
In the film.
All the motivation behind whyshe's doing it is not there, so
this is again filling in gapsfor me.

Ashley (01:30:39):
The first night of this weekend reunion was actually
pretty uneventful.
Bobby seemed to be on his bestbehavior and was trying to win
Allie's affection.
Things took a turn on thesecond night when he forced
Allie to watch Rough Boys andraped her afterwards.
Instead of being shocked,concerned or even the least bit

(01:30:59):
bothered by the news, lisa justshrugged and said she warned
Allie that Bobby was into somekinky stuff.

Remi (01:31:06):
That is exactly what she says in the film.

Ashley (01:31:10):
If I were Allie, I would never speak to this person ever
again.

Remi (01:31:15):
She just runs out of the house.
After that.
She's an emotional wreck,understandably.

Ashley (01:31:21):
After Allie left the next morning, lisa discovered
she was pregnant.
Even though she had sex withboth Bobby and Marty, there was
no doubt in her mind that thebaby was Marty's.
That afternoon she walked to alocal arcade and asked her
20-year-old cousin, derekZiverko, for a ride.
And asked her 20-year-oldcousin, derek Ziverko, for a
ride.
Derek was a respectful andwell-behaved young man who loved

(01:31:44):
Mortal Kombat and DungeonsDragons.
His gaming abilities attractedthe admiring eyes of younger
kids, which didn't really bothertheir parents because he seemed
to be a wholesome influence.

Remi (01:31:57):
This is shown in the film as well.
Every time he's at the arcadeplaying Mortal Kombat, he's got
a bunch of little like 10 yearolds around him watching
everything he does.

Ashley (01:32:13):
Although school was always tough for him, he worked
really hard to graduate andplanned to join the military
until an aggravated elbow injurymade him ineligible.
Instead he got a part-time jobdelivering pizza and spent hours
upon hours mastering MortalKombat at the arcade.
Derek agreed to drive Lisa toMarty's and was horrified at
what unfolded.
Not only did Bobby insist onshowing him rough boys, but he

(01:32:37):
had to break up a scufflebetween Marty and Lisa.
That happened as soon as sheannounced her pregnancy.
Lisa spent the next severalhours wandering around the mall
asking anyone she knew for moneyfor an abortion.
She called it a night around 10pm and walked home with a
measly $10 in her pocket.

(01:32:58):
Lisa and Marty met at the beachto talk the next morning.
She expressed concern about howBobby treated him, which caused
Marty to open up to her for thefirst time.
He told her all about how Bobbybullied him for years, but he
didn't know how to escape hisfriends After he made an
offhanded comment about murderbeing the only way out.

(01:33:19):
Lisa said that was exactly whatshe had in mind.
Marty laughed at first, butsoon realized she was serious.
The more they talked aboutBobby being the source of all of
their problems, the moreexcited they became.
Lisa called Allie and blurtedout the plan as soon as she got
home that night.
She wanted Allie's help andAllie seemed excited to make the

(01:33:42):
trip, although at this pointshe didn't think Lisa was
actually serious about killinganyone.
She was in as long as she couldbring her new boyfriend,
17-year-old Donnie Semenik, andfriend Heather Swalers.
Donnie's mom moved to Florida in1992 seeking a better life for
her two sons.
Although he was expelled fromschool for skipping shortly

(01:34:05):
after the move, he was describedas sweet and a pretty
well-behaved kid.
He was obsessed with Allie andstarted spending all of his free
time at her house.
But Donnie wasn't Allie's onlyhouse guest during that time.
In early 1993, she met17-year-old Heather Swallers at
the house.
But Donnie wasn't Allie's onlyhouse guest during that time.
In early 1993, she met17-year-old Heather Swallers at

(01:34:30):
the mall.
Unlike Allie, heather came froma poor family and lived with
her aunt in a cheap motel.
Heather's mom was just 15 yearsold when her dad brutally beat
her mother to death with ahammer in a drunken rage.
Throughout Heather's childhoodher mom had a severe alcohol
addiction and treated her andher brother more like nuisances
than innocent kids.
Instead of bedtime stories.
At night they would readtranscripts from their

(01:34:52):
grandfather's murder trial withno gory detail being spared.
During that chance meeting atthe mall, many years later,
allie bought Heather $500 worthof new clothes and invited her
to stay with her for a while.
Allie, heather and Donniearrived in Hollywood around 5pm

(01:35:12):
on July 13, 1993.
Over dinner at Pizza Hut, lisadrilled home all the reasons
Bobby Kent deserved to die.
He beat and raped Allie andLisa.
He routinely assaulted peoplewith intellectual disabilities
and, worst of all, he treatedMarty like shit.
Although Donnie brought aserrated knife with him, the

(01:35:35):
group decided the best way tokill Bobby would be with Lisa's
mom's gun.
On the way out of dinner, lisatold her friend, claudia, who
worked at Pizza Hut, that thegroup was going to kill Bobby
Kent.
The murder plot began to unfoldback at Lisa's mom's house.
The group settled on a remotelocation near a body of water in

(01:35:58):
Weston that was slowly beingdeveloped into a golf course
community.
Allie agreed to lure Bobbythere under the pretenses that
they would race her car and havesex Come nightfall.
Lisa, marty, allie and Bobbyrode in two separate cars to the
abandoned site.
As soon as they arrived, bobbymade it clear that sex came

(01:36:21):
first.
Allie was too worried to takethe gun with her out of fear
that he might find it, so Lisadecided she would sneak up on
them while Allie was giving hima blowjob down by the water.
After tiptoeing down there, shegot cold feet and everyone made
it home unscathed.
The next day, a mutual friendconnected Lisa and Allie to

(01:36:42):
20-year-old Derek Kaufman, theleader of a gang called Crazy
Motherfuckers, mostly made up ofyoung teenagers, whose crime
spree is primarily involvedbreaking into houses and cars.

Remi (01:36:56):
And when we say young teenagers, we're talking like 12
, 13.

Ashley (01:36:59):
And when we say young teenagers, we're talking like 12
, 13.
The ages ranged from 10 to 17,with the average age being 14.

Remi (01:37:06):
Yeah, that's not a gang.

Ashley (01:37:09):
Well to gain admiration from his adolescent followers,
derek told tall tales about allthe murders he committed and how
he was a mafia hitman, allwhile somehow still living with
his parents.
Derek was surprised when Lisatold him that she wanted a guy
killed, since he was under theimpression that he was just

(01:37:29):
needed for a simple assault.
Nonetheless, he promised tocall her back later.
While eagerly waiting hisresponse, lisa instructed Allie
and Donnie to pick up CousinDerek for extra backup.
He was quickly found in thearcade, but instead of leaving
to meet up with Lisa and theothers, he spent the afternoon

(01:37:49):
with Donnie playing MortalKombat.

Remi (01:37:51):
They are tripping on acid, playing mortal combat, and
having very deep discussionsabout what a fatality means and
whatnot what the fuck is fetaldeath dude?

Cousin Derek (01:38:14):
it's like worse, dude.

Bully (clip) (01:38:15):
It's like way worse because, like you have to
live, man, you have to fuckinglive and you're like a fucking
baby, and that was exactly howit was depicted in the book.

Ashley (01:38:28):
While this was going down, marty and Bobby followed
their typical daily routine ofweightlifting and sandwich
making.
With her patience waning, lisapicked up the friend who told
her about Derek Kay and demandedshe take her to his house to
discuss the nighttime plans inperson.
The friend ran ahead to try toconvince Derek to decline Lisa's

(01:38:51):
murder proposal, but herwarnings fell on deaf ears.
Instead, he promised to contacthis mob associates to get a gun
and instructed Lisa to pick himup come nightfall by throwing
little pebbles at his window,because of course, he lived with
mommy and daddy and couldn'thave them being woken up.

Remi (01:39:10):
How many days is this after the first attempt?

Ashley (01:39:14):
This is the next day.

Remi (01:39:20):
Then my description may have been inaccurate.
When I said a couple of dayslater, I was assuming it was a
few days later, but the filmvery much portrays it like it
could have been the very nextday.
I just assume they took a dayor two to think about it.
But that was my bad.
I gave them more credit thanthey deserved.

Ashley (01:39:37):
Everyone reconvened at Marty's house around 10 o'clock
on July 14, 1993.
Their weapon arsenal consistedof a serrated knife Danny
brought with him from home abaseball bat, Cousin Derek
borrowed from a friend, and ascuba diving knife and lead pipe
gathered by Marty.

Remi (01:39:56):
They had the lead pipe in the movie as well, but I
couldn't really tell that theyhad it.
They didn't really seem to useit.

Ashley (01:40:06):
It's the one thing that's not used.
Derek Kay reluctantly told thegroup that his mob boss wouldn't
loan him a gun because itwasn't a sanctioned hit, but he
graciously offered to come alonganyway in case they needed his
professional assistance oradvice.
After some bickering about whowould do the actual killing,

(01:40:29):
Donnie agreed to be the one todeliver the fatal blow.
Marty picked up Bobby and thetwo cars headed to the same
swampy wetland.
They went to the night before.
Although the plan was clearlyset in motion, many of the teens
later claimed they didn'tactually think the night would
end in murder, especially notCousin Derek.

Remi (01:40:51):
Nobody was thinking about jail.

I guess everybody was in their, you know, in their
own subconscious or whatevertrying to put it together and
you know, like I said, for me itwas just like you know where
during all this conversation wasit really serious?
And I didn't catch it.
Worst case scenario, they werejust going to jump him.
You know, it was just going tobe a three on one, they were
just going to beat the out ofhim.

Bully (clip) (01:41:13):
So, but like I said it just.
It didn't happen that way.

Ashley (01:41:21):
You know, I wish it would have happened that way.
After the group arrived, bobbystarted following Allie down to
the water, just like he did thenight before.
Heather was instructed tofollow them and loudly ask if
there were any alligators in thewater, which would be the
signal for Donnie, marty andDerek K to follow.
Everyone was brieflyimmobilized after Heather yelled
the signal twice until Donniesnapped into action.

(01:41:43):
He ran down the hill like amadman and nicked Bobby in the
base of the neck with theserrated knife.
Bobby's face filled with ragewhen he touched his neck and
realized he was bleeding.
He probably felt reassured whenhe saw Marty standing nearby.
But instead of being offeredhelp, he received a violent stab
in the gut with the sharp scubaknife.

(01:42:05):
Bobby was shocked.
Begged Marty to stop andrepeatedly apologized to his
friend for whatever it was hedid wrong.
But his pleas were only metwith more stabbings from both
Marty and Donnie.
A stunned Heather and Allie ranback to Allie's car where they
remained for the rest of themurder.
Bobby followed up the hill andcollapsed in front of the

(01:42:28):
vehicles.
Marty then jumped on top of hischest, wielded more stab wounds
so deep that they pierced andpulled out his internal organs
and then started slammingBobby's head against the
concrete.
The attack finally stoppedafter Derek Kay stepped up and
hit him in the head with abaseball bat.

(01:42:49):
Cousin Derek was frozen in placewhile all this unfolded.
Although he was terrified, hefollowed Derek Kay's
instructions and helped himcarry Bobby to the end of the
canal.
Derek Kay's instructions andhelped him carry Bobby to the
end of the canal.
Although they realized thatBobby somehow wasn't dead yet on
the way down, they threw him inanyway and left around 1.30 in
the morning.

(01:43:10):
Although everyone was eager togo home, they agreed to meet at
South Beach to iron out theiralibis and toss the weapons.
Once there, marty realized heleft his ninth sheath at the
murder site, which meant Allieneeded to drive him and Derek K
back to retrieve it.
While there they checked onBobby and were unsure if he was

(01:43:32):
actually dead, but they didnothing to help or even end his
suffering.
Back at the beach, the grouptossed the weapons into the
water, except for the baseballbat that cousin Derek promised
his friend he would return.

Remi (01:43:46):
I was wondering about that because he was saying he had to
return the baseball bat.
But that makes more sense.

Ashley (01:43:54):
They talked about their alibi and decided to say that
they all spent the eveningwalking along the South Beach
Boardwalk.
If asked about Bobby, martymade up a story about him
agreeing to meet up with ahillbilly girl.
They met at the sandwich shopthat day and then Marty was
going to stress that he wasworried that the girl had gang
ties because she was from arough part of the state.

Remi (01:44:17):
Solid story.

Ashley (01:44:19):
Throughout this planning process, derek K K stressed
that if he was caught he waseither going to take everyone
down with him or kill them all.
The group finally disbandedbetween 3.30 and 4.
Bobby's dad noticed his sonwasn't home right away thanks to
that call we already discussedfrom Marty.
But he didn't start to worryuntil come lunchtime.

(01:44:40):
He went to Marty's house around11 and knew something was wrong
as soon as he saw theteenager's face.
Despite trying to soundconcerned while he told Bobby's
dad the story about thehillbilly date lie, he also
tried to convince Fred to justwait a couple days before
alerting the authorities.

Remi (01:45:01):
That's not suspicious at all.

Ashley (01:45:04):
Right.
Obviously, fred called policeas soon as he got home and then
called Marty and said you needto get yourself over here and
talk to the authorities.

Remi (01:45:14):
Anytime anyone says specifically wait to call the
police for a while, I would besuspicious.
Specifically wait to call thepolice.

Ashley (01:45:21):
for a while, I would be suspicious.
Marty reiterated his story butsomehow couldn't give a single
detail about how the mysterywoman looked, despite claiming
he saw her less than 24 hoursago.
Allie, heather and Donnie gotback to Allie's house around 3

(01:45:45):
o'clock that day, which was July15th.
They emerged from her roomthree hours later when Allie
asked her mom a hypotheticalquestion Was it a crime to not
report a murder?
If you saw it happen?
The police spoke to Marty againthe next morning.
He handled himself a bit bettercompared to the day prior and
accused the officers of notsearching hard enough for his
friend.
Meanwhile, cousin Derek wastrying to distract himself with

(01:46:07):
his beloved Mortal Kombat, butcracked under the pressure of it
all and confided in not justone but two random acquaintances
.
They urged him to tell thepolice, or at least his parents.

Remi (01:46:29):
They urged him to tell the police, or at least his parents
, but he was too afraid aboutpotential retaliation from Derek
Kay, since he fully believed hewas a contract killer After
seeing three people brutallykill somebody and hunt him down.

Ashley (01:46:39):
How could I not believe him?
It scared me to death.
Allie and her friends asked hermom more hypothetical witness
murder questions on July 17th.
Her mom started to suspect thatsomething was up but didn't
press her out of fear ofprovoking one of her daughter's
unmanageable temper tantrums.
Allie finally came clean laterthat day, but her mom assumed
her daughter was just once againtrying to get her parents to

(01:47:03):
pay for her apartment becauseshe mentioned needing a safe
place to stay to avoid mafiaretaliation.
That same day Lisa went to PizzaHut and confessed to her friend
Claudia, while also asking fora ride to the crime scene to
check on the body.
Instead, claudia called aspecial hotline for teenage

(01:47:26):
runaways and said she hadinformation about the murder of
Bobby Kent.
30 minutes later she told twoofficers all about her friend's
confession, including the namesof everyone involved.
These officers spoke to Lisaand Marty separately around 11
o'clock.
Lisa insisted she knew nothingabout the anonymous tip, while

(01:47:49):
Marty just relayed the samestory he had already told, but
this time the officers were surehe was lying.
Lisa called Allie the nextmorning to update her on
everything that had transpired.
Allie forbid her and Marty fromdriving up there.
Right that second andsuccessfully begged her mom into

(01:48:09):
getting her a hotel room for afew days.
That evening Lisa actually didconfess to her mom and
accompanied her to cousinDerek's house where they told
his parents everything.
Derek's parents wanted to callthe cops ASAP, but Lisa's mom
thought it was best to just waituntil the morning.

(01:48:29):
An hour or so later, derek'sparents called an uncle with law
enforcement ties who convincedthem to alert the authorities.
While sobbing, derek confessedto everything and agreed to take
the skeptical detective, whohadn't yet heard about the
missing teen, to the body.
Immediately after getting outof the car, the detective heard

(01:48:51):
the high-pitched buzzing offlies and smelled.
What I hear is the unmistakablescent of decomposition.

Remi (01:49:00):
It was never actually thrown in the water, right Like
it was kind of on the edge ofthe water.

Ashley (01:49:07):
This is terrible.
I left this part out for areason, but yes, they chucked
Bobby Kent's body into the waterand, because he wasn't dead, he
made an audible groan as helanded, half in half out, which
resulted in Derek Hoffman wadingin and pulling the body in, but

(01:49:28):
not very deep, so he was stillkind of just floating around the
shoreline, of just floatingaround the shoreline.
Starting around 4 am on July19th, the Bowerd Seven, as they
were dubbed by the media, werearrested one by one Of the seven
defendants.
Everyone except Marty andHeather gave full taped

(01:49:48):
confessions, with eachdownplaying their own
involvement.
Most of the teen's parents hiredexpensive and experienced
defense attorneys, whileinsisting that their child was a
good kid who fell in with a badcrowd and was just in the wrong
place at the wrong time.
Although the lawyers weresuccessful in arguing that each

(01:50:10):
case should be tried separately,the entire legal team
frequently met as a group to tryto come up with some sort of
viable defense strategy, sincethe DA seemed hesitant to offer
any deals quite yet.
This posed a challenge, sincenone of their clients, with the
exception of Heather and cousinDerek, showed any sign of

(01:50:33):
remorse, asserted that they didnothing wrong and just didn't
understand why the case wasturning into such a big ordeal.

Remi (01:50:42):
In the film.
It has a scene where all ofthem are in a courtroom together
, I'm assuming, waiting forhearing or something or other.

Ashley (01:50:51):
They were all in the room together at their
arraignment, which is when thegrand jury says that they're
being charged with a crime.
But that's the only time theyare all in the room together at
their arraignment, which is whenthe grand jury says that
they're being charged with acrime.
But that's the only time theyare all in a room together.

Remi (01:51:01):
In that scene they all begin bickering amongst each
other like teens would do on abus ride home or something like
that, to the point where thejudge, the lawyer and everyone
in the courtroom is just staringat them in disbelief.

Ashley (01:51:18):
The main strategy seemed to become to just delay the
case as long as possible, inhopes that the passage of time
would decay memories, makewitnesses harder to find or
result in misplaced evidence.
They also tried to do thisthing where they tried to argue
a theory called urban psychosis,where they basically said that

(01:51:42):
these middle class teens werejust in this environment where,
because they were all highschool dropouts, or most of them
were high school dropouts theircommunity shunned them and they
had no other option but to justbecome juvenile delinquents.
They announced this strategy.
The media was like what thefuck is this joke?

(01:52:03):
And they quickly abandoned itand never talked about it again.

Remi (01:52:08):
I would put that in a similar category to the Twinkie
defense which we'll get to insome podcasts, I'm sure.

Ashley (01:52:18):
By the summer of 1994, Heather and cousin Derek agreed
to cooperate in exchange forlighter sentences.
Lisa's attorney actuallyencouraged her to also plead
guilty in exchange for a 12 to17 year sentence, but her
parents refused.
Instead they fired him andhired a lawyer that they
recently saw featured on CourtTV, who told them exactly what

(01:52:42):
they wanted to hear that theirdaughter was innocent.
Marty's trial kicked everythingoff on September 12, 1994, with
the prosecution presenting arock-solid case.
Heather, Cousin Derek and ajailhouse snitch who said Marty
boasted about the crime, alltestified against him.

(01:53:03):
They also played Derek Kaye'staped confession in its entirety
, but perhaps the most damningevidence came from the medical
examiner.
While he spoke, the DAdistributed gruesome photos of
Bobby's body and stuck knittingneedles into a large doll each
time a stab wound was pointedout.

Remi (01:53:25):
I know this is kind of morbid to ask, but did the book
reveal, when Bobby died from hisinjuries, how long he had been
alive in the Everglades for?

Ashley (01:53:38):
I don't think they were able to determine the exact
cause of death, which is whatMarty's defense team really
relies upon.
They try to say that not onlywere the teenage convicts who
were testifying were just tryingto save their own asses, but
they tried to argue that there'sno way to know that Marty's

(01:54:00):
wounds he delivered were theones that actually directly
caused the death.

Remi (01:54:06):
So they didn't have a specific time of death for Bobby
.

Ashley (01:54:11):
I don't think they knew exactly when it was he died.
Usually if he, for example, hadbeen thrown in face down and
there was water in his lungs,then they could argue that he
drowned.
But because he was face up,they just couldn't tell.
He was so badly beaten andstabbed that there was no way to
determine exactly when he died.

(01:54:33):
But it sounded like in the book.
The consensus was that it wasafter he was thrown in the water
.
But again, it wasn't like aspecific injury that caused his
death.
It was just the culmination ofit all.
Marty was actually the lastwitness to take the stand.
He testified about Bobby'smistreatment, tried to argue

(01:54:55):
self-defense and claimed hedidn't report the murder because
he truly believed Derek Kayewould kill him.

Remi (01:55:02):
Self-defense is a pretty far reach, Marty.

Ashley (01:55:06):
How it was described was that after he got nicked in the
back of the neck by Donnie, helike turned around and was like
filled with rage and just lungedat everyone who was there.
So they said that all of thiswas in self-defense.

Remi (01:55:22):
He was unarmed, though.

Ashley (01:55:25):
And this is clearly beyond what would be required to
subdue your assailant.
Well, after eight days of trialtestimony, the jury agreed with
you.
They convicted Marty offirst-degree murder and
conspiracy to commit murder andrecommended a death sentence.

(01:55:45):
But the judge elected towithhold sentencing until all
the trials were over.
He was sentenced to death byelectrocution the following year
.
Derek K and Donnie wereconvicted of the same charges
but received the lesser sentenceof life without the possibility
of parole.
Lisa gave birth while awaitingtrial, saw her daughter for 30

(01:56:09):
minutes once a month and signedover parental rights to her
maternal grandparents.
She was convicted ofsecond-degree murder and
conspiracy to commit aggravatedbattery and sentenced to life
without the possibility ofparole.
Allie was convicted ofsecond-degree murder and
conspiracy to commit murder andsentenced to 40 years in prison.

(01:56:32):
Of the seven defendants,heather and C and cousin Derek
were the only ones to acceptplea bargains for second-degree
murder and conspiracy to commitmurder.
Heather was sentenced to sevenyears and Derek to 11 because he
tried to downplay Marty'sinvolvement.
While testifying against him,he basically said he wasn't sure

(01:56:55):
if he saw Marty stab Bobby ornot and was easily caught in the
lie.
So, because it was obvious, hetried to save Marty.
Even though he had alreadyagreed to fully cooperate, he
got a couple of years added onto his plea bargain.

Remi (01:57:11):
Bad move.
There was no saving Marty atthis point.

Ashley (01:57:15):
Several of the teen's lawyers appealed their client's
convictions.
In 1997, the Florida SupremeCourt ruled that Marty shouldn't
be executed due to mitigatingfactors.
His death sentence was vacatedto life with the possibility of
parole after 25 years.

Remi (01:57:34):
How old was Marty when he was sentenced to death by
electric chair?

Ashley (01:57:39):
If he was 19 at the time of the crime, he would have
been about 21.
And when they say mitigatingfactors, I'm not exactly sure
what these are, but based oneverything we've talked about
about the case, I'm assumingit's his age and the
mistreatment from Bobby thatwere the primary two factors.
Lisa's sentence was alsodetermined to be unduly harsh

(01:58:02):
and overturned on appeal.
She was resentenced to 22 yearsin 1998, while Allie's sentence
was also reduced to 17 years.

Remi (01:58:14):
So they're all out of prison currently.

Ashley (01:58:18):
Well, where is everyone now?
Heather Swalers was releasedfrom prison in February 1998
after serving less than threeyears.
As of 2018, she lived inGeorgia with her kids.
Cousin Derek was released inOctober 1999 after serving four
years of his 11-year sentence ata minimum security prison.

(01:58:39):
He participated in a 2001episode of Forensic Files, which
is where those two audio clipsthat I already played came from.
He got a job as a long-haultruck driver and settled in
Missouri to raise his daughteras a single parent in 2009.
Although she was resentenced to17 years, allie Willis was

(01:59:02):
released in September 2001 afterserving just six years.
During a 2001 interview withNBC Miami, she said she did feel
sorry for Bobby's parents, butnot necessarily about her role
in his death because quote howcan you feel remorse for

(01:59:23):
something you didn't do?
End quote.

Remi (01:59:27):
To be fair, he did rape her.

Ashley (01:59:30):
Well, she also appeared on the Dr Drew show in 2012,
where she told her new bestfriend, Shannon, about the
murder for the first time.

Dr. Drew (01:59:41):
This is a stay-at-home mother of four struggling with
the decision to reveal ashocking secret to her friend,
Shannon.
She fears that revealing thiswill end their friendship and
she's also set this up to helpyou understand that, if this
does end the friendship, itwould be very shattering to her.
Okay, so are you prepared tohear what she has to say?

Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Interv (02:00:00):
Yes .
You prepared to say it?
Yes, okay.
Alex, you're on.
When I was in high school, I wasfriends with several people.
I had a boyfriend that abusedme extremely bad.
Well, he was supposed to, therewas supposed to be a fight and

(02:00:22):
he was supposed to get beat up.
He ultimately got murderedright in front of me.
Um, everybody went to prison.
I went for eight years on a 40year prison sentence.
Okay, did you have anything todo with him being murdered, or
it was just because you werethere?
Um, the majority, because I wasthere to watch a fight, and it
turned into a murder.

Dr. Drew (02:00:34):
That's, that's a little clearer.
Um the majority, because I wasthere to watch a fight and it
turned into a murder.

Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Inte (02:00:37):
Let's be a little clearer, Alice Um,
because of the abuse I hadsuffered from him.
Physically.
Yes, okay, the boys weresupposed to beat him up and it
turned into more than justbeating him up, did you?
Hire the boys to have them beatup.
No One was his best friend of15 years.
There was actually more to thatthat I didn't even know have
happened between the two of themuntil after I was arrested, to
why they did what they did.
That ultimately had nothing todo with me.

(02:00:59):
That part.

Dr. Drew (02:01:00):
There are two parts I think that are important, though
you helped get him to thatlocation.

Yes , let's be fair, you got him
there.
Yes, I've always taken thatresponsibility.

Dr. Drew (02:01:07):
People say you lured him there.
I've always been there, yes,and then, once it happened, then
she was threatened with herlife if she were to say anything
to anybody so before I tell youwhat she says during the rest
of this brief segment, remy,what are your thoughts on alice?

Remi (02:01:24):
how would you ever like process that as the friend being
just brought on there?

Ashley (02:01:30):
my favorite part is just how she, like word, vomits it
all out like I was involved inthis and everyone went to prison
and I went to prison for thisamount of time.
It's just the bare bones factsof what happened and throughout
the rest of the brief segment,that we didn't play.
Things get worse.
Ali egregiouslymischaracterizes her involvement

(02:01:53):
.
She claims, claimed she knewnothing about Bobby's
mistreatment of anyone else andthe whole time thought the plan
was for three guys to beat himup because he physically abused
her because they were dating.
She also claimed that she wasthe one to go to police and
quote get the investigationrolling, even though police

(02:02:16):
reports clearly say it was Derekwho alerted the authorities.

Remi (02:02:21):
I truly do wonder if this friend ever did happen upon the
film Bully to just watch theadaptation of the crime.

Ashley (02:02:31):
It is just mind-boggling to me after a movie was made
about this story, a book waswritten about this story, there
were five trials about thismurder that so many of these
people that were so involved inthis crime continue which I'll
get into it when we talk aboutLisa and Marty continue to this

(02:02:53):
day to try to minimize theirinvolvement.
It is so gross to me.
But anyway, as of 2018, Allie,or Alice, lived in Melbourne,
Florida, with her husband andfour kids.
Donnie Semenik and DerekKaufman were actually both
incarcerated together at theGulf Correctional Institute by

(02:03:13):
2018.
Neither have been modelprisoners, as they've received
about 20 disciplinaryinfractions each for weapon
possession, drug and alcohol useand disobeying orders.
As of April 2024, Donnie is atthe Okeechobee Correctional
Institution and Derek is at theMarion Correctional Institution.

(02:03:34):
And that leads us to ourstar-crossed lovers.
Lisa Connelly, who remember wasrescinded to about 20 years,
was released from prison inFebruary 2004 after serving less
than nine by 2013,.
She worked at an optometrist'soffice, ran a cleaning business
and lived in Pennsylvania withher husband and six-month-old

(02:03:57):
child, Along with Allie.
She agreed to be interviewedfor an episode of American
Justice in 2001.
Like her former best friend,she also downplayed her
involvement in Bobby's murder.
She described herself as scaredand surprised the whole time,
adding that she never, everwanted him to die and played no

(02:04:20):
part in it other than drivingone of the cars.
Marty Puccio is serving his timeat the Everglades Correctional
Institution, With the exceptionof one 30-minute visit shortly
after his daughter was born.
He first met Megan when she was10.
Marty and Megan wereinterviewed in a 2021 episode of

(02:04:41):
the since abandoned Crime JuicyCocktail Hour podcast.
I actually did find atranscript of the episode, which
is linked in the show notes incase anyone is interested, but
before you hop to it, I will sayit is pretty cringey.
Like his co-defendants, hecontinues to minimize his

(02:05:03):
involvement.
He had a rather self-pittingattitude while he talked about
how he was suicidal and livingin a quote horror movie because
of how obsessed Bobby and Lisawere with him at the time of the
murder.
He also tried to argue that allof his other co-defendants were
more culpable.

(02:05:24):
He called his trial a sham andaccused his lawyer of repeatedly
coming to court drunk.
As for his daughter Megan, shefound out who her parents were
when she was five.
As for his daughter Megan, shefound out who her parents were
when she was five.
One year before the movie cameout, she claimed Lisa and Allie
were still best friends, eventhough both repeatedly denied
having any contact with any oftheir co-defendants since they

(02:05:47):
were released.
She also blatantly said thatshe did not like her mom or have
much contact with anyone fromthat side of the family.
She has several petitions andsocial media accounts solely
devoted to advocating for herfather's freedom, and that is
the true story of Larry Clark'sbully.

(02:06:08):
Wow, there's no question thatthis was a really brutal crime
that shouldn't have happened.
But I think what reallysurprised me was the fact that
three of the five people whowere clearly the most culpable
throughout this crime tried tominimize their involvement so
significantly for decades bysaying they didn't know what was

(02:06:31):
happening, by blaming otherpeople, saying that they
shouldn't have gotten thesentence they deserved.
It is just so gross to me.
I know that it's not uncommonfor people who are accused of
crimes or convicted of crimes totry to say they didn't do it or
anything like that, but in acase like this, when there were
five trials and there was a lotof evidence not just from five

(02:06:55):
tape confessions but fromfriends turning on each other
and from random witnesses comingout of the woodwork saying
so-and-so, told me everythingthey did.
There's no way that Lisa canclaim that she didn't think or
want Bobby dead, or that Alliehad no idea that they weren't
all just beating him up becauseshe dated him which is a lie and

(02:07:19):
wanted to retaliate.
It's insane.

Remi (02:07:22):
The only people in this entire situation that I feel may
not have known how far this wasgoing to go was Cousin Derek
and Heather.
I do believe that they did notreally know what was going to go
down, heather.
I do believe that they did notreally know what was going to go
down.
But everybody else, I think,had motive, except for Donnie
Donnie's, like the weird one outhere where he just kind of like

(02:07:44):
tagged along and was like I'mdown for whatever.
But everyone else had a motivein this.

Ashley (02:07:50):
He had a motive he was obsessed with Allie so he didn't
like Bobby, because Bobby rapedhis girlfriend.
Derek is the one that camealong for shits and gigs.

Remi (02:08:00):
And I guess Kaufman had no real reason to be doing this
other than the fact that he waspretending to be a hitman during
all of this.
But it is a crazy, crazy storyon the film level.
On the reality level, I'mspeechless at everything that

(02:08:21):
I've just heard.
Honestly, I'm really glad thatyour side of the story filled in
a lot of gaps and a lot ofquestions that I had about the
film.
And, yeah, I am just astonishedbut not surprised at everyone's
lack of admission to any sortof guilt later on in life.

(02:08:44):
It does seem like everyone inthis case has a bit more of a.
They did more than I did.
They did more than I did and noone is really admitting to be
the one who actually did it.

Ashley (02:08:56):
Or acknowledging that if they were the one that would
have said no or walked away,this wouldn't have happened.

Remi (02:09:03):
It was all of them in the end.

Ashley (02:09:05):
Something else that was said in the Cram Juicy podcast
that came off so badly to me.
I get that Megan loves her dadand doesn't believe that her dad
, who obviously made a horribledecision when he was 19 years
old.
She doesn't think he deserves tobe in prison for the rest of

(02:09:26):
his life.
She loves her dad and in hisdefense he has actually, unlike
his counterparts, been a modelprisoner throughout his
incarceration.
But she said one thing thatwhen I read it I almost closed
the article and just didn'tcontinue reading because it's
obviously so not true.
But she was talking about themovie and she in an offhanded

(02:09:46):
comment, said well, Bobby Ken'sparents are millionaires because
of this movie.
And that was so disgusting tome, not only because it's
obviously not true, but it justshows a complete disregard that
these parents lost their son ina brutal way and have clearly
been suffering ever since andwill for the rest of their lives

(02:10:11):
jarred by it.
I just couldn't believe theaudacity of throwing that out
there, Trying to convince peoplethat this low-budget-ass movie
that no one has ever heard aboutmade these parents, whose kid
was disemboweled and fed to sandcrabs, were benefiting from the
film's production.

Remi (02:10:29):
Yeah, this movie that was released in six theaters.
I'm gonna reiterate nobody mademillions of dollars off this
movie.
Nobody, especially the Kentfamily.
As far as my research goes,they were not involved at all,
so I don't think they got a dime.
And why would they?

(02:10:50):
Their son is not portrayed in apositive light, nor are they.
So, yeah, this woman does notknow what she is talking about
and she is clearly justdefending her father for a crime
that happened before she wasever even born.

Ashley (02:11:04):
And on that heavy note, let's lighten things up a bit
with some words of wisdom fromJim Carrey for our objection of
the week your honor, I object.

Remi (02:11:16):
And why is that, mr reed?
because it's devastating to mycase overrule good call our
objection of the week is, forour new listeners, the most
superfluous, unnecessary changemade from adaptation from the
real story to the silver screen.
I had a few on this one, but Ididn't have anything that was

(02:11:38):
really major.
All of the stuff I had withthis movie was very minor.
A lot of my grievances had todo with locations, like a
certain thing happened in acertain area rather than another
area.
However, the one objection Ihave on here that doesn't have
to do with that is the fact thatMarty did not come along on the

(02:12:00):
first attempt on Bobby's life.
In the film Marty very clearlystays behind.
However, in reality you saidthat Marty was there on that
first attempt when Lisa wasgoing to try and kill him but
didn't.
At the last minute In the filmhe states very clearly I'm
staying behind on this one andhe's not there.

(02:12:21):
So that is my objection of theweek.

Ashley (02:12:25):
Which doesn't make any sense, if you think about it.
Why would Bobby be like okay,I'll go out to this abandoned
area and have sex with Allie,while your girlfriend Marty
stays behind in the car and youdon't come?
That was a dumb omission fromthe director's part.

Remi (02:12:42):
Agreed, there was zero reason for Lisa to be going
along on this venture withoutMarty.
But for whatever reason, martydid not come along on this
specific ride.

Ashley (02:12:57):
I had yours written down also, but I think I have one
better.
And that is because earlier yousaid Heather went to rehab for
meth.
In reality she was in rehab forcrack cocaine.
Why change that?
Does literally nothing by justchanging the drug from one
stimulant to the next.

Remi (02:13:18):
Okay, I got to give it to you on this one.
That is a very unnecessarychange.

Ashley (02:13:24):
It's just such a really small, minor change.

Remi (02:13:28):
And it fits perfectly into the criteria of our objection
of the week.
But what about the main eventof our podcast, our verdict.

At the conclusion of each episode, our hosts will
deliver a verdict based on thefilm's accuracy.
If the film is an honestportrayal of the events, then it
will earn a not guilty verdict.
If the adaptation is mostlyfactual but creative liberties
were taken for the sake ofentertainment, the film will be
declared a mistrial.
But if the film ultimatelystrays too far from the truth,

(02:14:05):
then it will be condemned asguilty and sentenced to a life
behind bars.

Remi (02:14:10):
Ashley, I will let you start things, because I started
things last time.

Ashley (02:14:16):
When you introduced your objection you took the words
right out of my mouth.
I have seven things writtendown here, four of them listed
as very minor changes, and thethree that are listed as more
major are still really freakingminor, like how Marty was in the
porno instead of the 42 yearold man.

(02:14:36):
I think the biggest change thatthe film took was how the
anonymous tip came from Heatherrather than pizza parlor worker
Claudia.
But all in all, I am verysurprised to say that this movie
obviously gets a not guiltyverdict.
I knew it was going to get anot guilty verdict after 30

(02:14:58):
minutes of you talking, if thatthe director, whether you agree
with the stylistic direction hetook with this film and the
decisions he made.
He stuck to the source materialvery, very closely.
A lot of the changes that weremade were to just tighten up the
timeline.
So in my opinion, this movie isa not guilty verdict, no

(02:15:22):
questions asked.

Remi (02:15:24):
And I wholeheartedly agree with everything you just said.
This has been one of ourcrazier episodes from the true
story to the true productionstories and, as you were telling
your true side of things, itwas literally filling in gaps

(02:15:45):
that I saw in the film.
There were scenes that wereshown that were depicting
exactly what you had said, butwithout the minor backstory to
kind of let you understand whatwas happening.
But it was still shown, as wellas random characters mentioning
their backstories or where theywere from.
So many little details werekept in this film and Larry

(02:16:09):
Clark, I will say, is probablynot a very good human being
overall, but he did adapt thisstory remarkably well.
Like this is probably one of themost accurate ones that I have
seen and definitely one of theones that had the craziest
production stories as well asthe craziest after-the-crime

(02:16:31):
stories.
Like this entire tale has blownmy mind and'm honestly
speechless.
It was done very, very well.
The true story is insane, theproduction stories are insane
and the movie is a plus 100accurate.
Besides minor minor changeshere and there, I do think there

(02:16:53):
is some gratuitous stuff thatdoes not need to be in the film
at all, and if you were toremove some of those scenes here
and there, it would be astronger film.
But overall, yes, this is a notguilty through and through.

Ashley (02:17:07):
Well, I guess we got to thank Larry Clark because he has
pulled us out of our guilty rutfor season four of Criminal
Adaptations with, I agree,probably the strongest not
guilty verdict to date.

Remi (02:17:22):
Which is crazy.
We were going over it.
It's been a while since we bothhad a unanimous not guilty
verdict.
A lot of these stories havebeen going into the mistrial
area, so it is very nice to getone that is a not guilty verdict
.

Ashley (02:17:39):
Well, you know, I have high hopes for our next episode
coming in two weeks.
Remy, what are we going to betalking about?
I'm sure it's going to be notguilty.

Remi (02:17:48):
I almost can't say it without laughing.
Two weeks from now we will bediscussing the film Orphan.
It is a horror movie and allthe clips I have looked up for
it so far have been murderscenes from the movie.
So it is a 100% horror moviewhich I can't imagine will be
true to the real story.

Ashley (02:18:09):
But hey man you never know.
Yeah, we always watch someYouTube videos before bed, and
last night, as we were scrollingthrough, one randomly came up,
probably because our phoneslistened to us talk.
But the video that came up wasa composite of all the kills in
the Orphan movies and we weregoing to watch it and then we

(02:18:31):
saw that it was something crazy,like 35 minutes long.

Remi (02:18:36):
It was about 29 minutes and 30 seconds or something like
that.
I cannot imagine that the realstory is similar to this, but I
am very anxious to see thedifference between this
ridiculous, crazy story and thetrue tale.

Ashley (02:18:54):
And for anyone who is up to date on their true crime
shows.
I will be very briefly touchingon Natalia Grace, which is a
case that happened after thismovie came out, and to tide you
over in the meantime, here isthe trailer of the movie Orphan.

And until next time everybody court
is adjournedned we're seeingkids for the first time this
weekend.
I'm ready to adopt.
Adopting an older child is notan easy decision my name is
esther.

Bully (clip) (02:19:27):
Why aren't you down at the party?
I've never really seen thepoint of it.

Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Intervie (02:19:31):
I guess I'm different there's
nothing wrong with beingdifferent, you know this.

This is an extraordinary little girl.
She's very mature for her age.

You seem to have made quite a
connection.
Is this your house?

It's your home too .
You're just as much part ofthis family as Danny and Max.

Bully (clip) (02:19:46):
It's a pleasure to meet you.
This is our new student.
I'd like you all to make herfeel very welcome today.
Oh look.

Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Int (02:20:02):
Little Bo Peep text me she wants her
outfit back Esther.

Bully (clip) (02:20:04):
What are you doing ?
Something's happening to causeEsther to feel this way.
I.

Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Inte (02:20:13):
Think there's something wrong with
Esther.
We need to know what we'redealing with.

Ashley (02:20:18):
Trouble does have a way of finding her.

My name is Dr Varava.
I'm calling from the SarnInstitute.

Ali Willis (Dr. Drew Intervie (02:20:24):
I don't understand how can they
have no record of her being?

there.
There has to be someexplanation.

The orphanage has never heard of
her.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC

The Breakfast Club

Crime Junkie

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Bully

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Dateline NBC

The Breakfast Club

Crime Junkie

All Episodes

Bully

Dateline NBC