Chapter 27

Episode Transcript
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Remi (00:08):
Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, the show where we
take a look at some of yourfavorite movies and the true
crime stories that inspired them.
I'm Remy.
I spent over a decade workingin the film and television
industry in Los Angeles,California.

Ashley (00:21):
And I'm Ashley.
I'm a clinical psychologist andforensic evaluator in the state
of Oregon.

Remi (00:27):
And welcome back everyone to the podcast, where we cover
such riveting topics as a manwaiting in front of a building
for three days straight in orderto murder one of the greatest
musicians of all time.
I'm Remy.
This is Ashley.
You know the podcast.
You heard the intro.
How are you doing today, ashley?

Ashley (00:45):
I'm doing great.
Thank you for asking.
I actually want to give alittle special shout out to my
mother.
It is her birthday today and ifthere's any podcast episode
someone in my family will listento, it will be this, because my
dad is a gigantic Beatles fan.
But how are you doing, remy?

Remi (01:02):
I'm doing pretty well, all things considered, still
readjusting to getting back intowork.
We're recording this early, soI believe this is coming out in
February, but we are justgetting back into the swing of
things here in January andreadjusting to life outside of
the holiday season, which isdifficult but necessary.

(01:23):
Ashley, do you want to tell theaudience what we will be
discussing today?

Ashley (01:27):
Yes, today we are discussing a movie about the
murder of John Lennon by MarkDavid Chapman, and the movie is
called Chapter 27.
Remy, I have never seen thismovie, but I know you have
obviously seen it for this and Ihad seen it before.
What is your experience with itand the Beatles?

Remi (01:48):
Me and my friend saw this way back in the day when we were
both in film school and Ibelieve we had illegally
streamed it but please don'tcome after me.
And I remember really likingmainly Jared Leto's performance.
The film was good for what itwas.
It is literally like Imentioned at the beginning, a

(02:08):
guy waiting in front of abuilding for three days, so not
a lot happens as far asstoryline goes, but Jared Leto's
performance is phenomenal inthis film and it was pretty much
looked right over because ofall the controversy surrounding
this subject matter.
Even many, many years afterthis tragedy occurred, it is

(02:31):
still a sensitive subject for alot of people and a lot of
people did not want this film tobe released and, as a result, I
don't believe it got a widerelease.
So if you did see it, it wasprobably just somewhere random
or online or something like that, because I think this might
have only opened in maybe ahandful of theaters or less, but

(02:53):
I did like it at the time.

Ashley (02:55):
And what about the Beatles?

Remi (02:57):
The Beatles I have a long history with, as I'm sure
everyone does.
They have been a part of mymusical life for many, many,
many years.
The biggest event in my lifethat was connected to the
Beatles in some way was thefirst Coachella concert I had
ever gone to.
Paul McCartney was theheadlining act for.

(03:20):
Friday.
So me and my four other friendswent out and we saw Paul
McCartney and he sang a bunch ofBeatles songs and it was like a
dream come true.
I literally never thought Iwould hear any of those songs
performed live by any of theoriginal members, and he did
tons of them.
And there was one song,specifically, which I think is

(03:41):
relevant here today, that I hadnever heard before, and it is
about Paul McCartney and hisfriendship with John.
It was a very moving song andit was one that I did not know
existed, but I want to play justa little snippet of right here,
because it really is abeautiful song and it is called
here Today.

Zola Trailer (04:01):
And if I said I really knew you well, what would
your answer be If you were heretoday?

Ashley (04:13):
ooh, here today.
Really slowing it down therefor Coachella now, didn't he?

Remi (04:25):
He did.
I remember that there werequite a few people that were
attending that year the youngergeneration, I guess and they
were very much not into PaulMcCartney at all.
But me and my friends were allabout it and had a wonderful
time.
But what about you, ashley?
What is your history with theBeatles or John Lennon or any of
it?

Ashley (04:51):
As I mentioned at the top of this episode, my dad is a
huge Beatles fan, so I reallygrew up listening to Beatles
from my dad and Elvis from mymom.
They love both of those bandsslash singers.

Remi (04:59):
There is actually an age old question that they propose
in a cutout scene from the filmPulp Fiction.
That supposedly says a lotabout the type of person you are
, and that question is are you aBeatles person or an Elvis
person?
Because those are very, verydifferent.

Ashley (05:15):
That's really funny, because I had an argument with
my dad when I was way younger.
It wasn't about the Beatles andElvis, but it was about Beatles
and Britney Spears, and myyoung, young, naive self was
convinced that Britney Spearswas going to have a longer
lasting impression on societythan the Beatles would.

(05:36):
And I must say I have beenproven wrong, even though
Britney has held her own overthe years.
That is for sure.

Remi (05:42):
Their songs are definitely about very different subject
matter.
Was this when her first albumcame out, when her Slave For you
album?
Do you remember like the timeframe or were you just in on
Britney Baby One More Time?
Better than the Beatles.

Ashley (05:55):
It was either Baby One More Time or Oops, I Did it
Again.

Remi (05:59):
They are definitely two very different genres of music
and very different lyrically,but both classics in their own
way.
I would say the Beatles andBritney.
But what about Gerard Leto?
Are you a fan of his?
Had you watched my So-CalledLife?
Do you like what he's doing now?
What's your thoughts on thisstrange cult leader of an actor?

Ashley (06:23):
He is a polarizing figure, that is for sure, mostly
because of his infamous methodacting on the set of Suicide
Squad, but I have always likedhis movies.
I think he's a very, very, very, very good actor.
I remember you had me watchwhat was that really?
Really depressing movie he's in.

Remi (06:41):
Requiem for a Dream.

Ashley (06:42):
Yes, and he is fabulous in that he's so good in Dallas
Buyers Club and the movie we'regoing to be covering soon, Gucci
even though we'll table thatfor later.
But I do like him and I am abig, big fan of Bury Me by 30
Seconds to Mars, his band.
What a banger.

Remi (07:20):
Personally, I did really used to like Jared Leto.
He was great in Lord of War.
He was great in Requiem for aDream, as you just mentioned,
and even in little bit partslike in Fight Club he was a
small character in that and, ofcourse, dallas Buyers Club.
He was phenomenal in the rolethat won him the Oscar.
But it does seem like after heplayed the Joker there was a

(07:42):
switch there and I don't know.
He seems to be not as respectedand his method acting is not
really normal.
I guess you would say itnegatively affects the people
around him and as a result, Ithink his career is kind of
taking a dip because of theJoker.
And I do still think he is agood actor.

(08:05):
But I do kind of think sincewinning the Academy Award he's
gotten a bit more full ofhimself and confident in making
some of these strange,ridiculous acting choices and no
one is reeling him back inanymore and we will go a lot
more into that when we talkHouse of Gucci.

Ashley (08:23):
I can't really remember a really good movie I've seen
him in since Dallas Buyers Club,like Suicide Squad.
Meh.
House of Gucci was okay,morbius is terrible.
And then that movie he came outwith I think it was with Denzel
Washington at the beginning of2021 when HBO started putting

(08:43):
movies on streaming directly.

Remi (08:46):
That serial killer movie with Rami Malek.
I can't remember the name of it, but we were both excited for
that.

Ashley (08:52):
We were so excited for it and it just sucked.

Remi (08:56):
Yes, it was terrible.
We can't remember the name, butif we could, we would advise
you all against watching it.
So if you ever come across amovie with Jared Leto, Denzel
Washington and Rami Malek, justturn that shit right off.
But I think we have discussedenough about Jared and his
quirky behavior and actingchoices, so let's dive into

(09:19):
chapter 27, shall we?

Ashley (09:21):
Let's do it.

I believe in Holton Caulfield and in the book
and what it was saying.

Remi (09:31):
Chapter 27 is a 2007 film written and directed by Jarrett
Schaefer, based on the 1992 bookLet Me Take you Down by Jack
Jones.

Ashley (09:41):
And, side note, that is the primary source material that
I read for this episode.

Remi (09:47):
The film stars Jared Leto, lindsay Lohan and Judah
Friedlander from 30 Rock andthis movie are the only two
things I've ever seen him in ohand a Dave Matthews Band music
video where he's huggingeverybody.
Mark David Chapman, the man whomurdered John Lennon, is
currently serving out hissentence at a correctional
facility in New York.
Throughout his imprisonment,chapman has largely remained

(10:09):
silent towards the broadcastmedia, having only granted two
interviews with Larry King andBarbara Walters back in 1992.
Likewise, journalist Jack Joneswas allowed to delve deeper
into Chapman's psyche through aseries of interviews that
revealed the chilling details ofChapman's psyche, through a
series of interviews thatrevealed the chilling details of
Chapman's mental state duringthose three fateful days in New
York City leading up to theassassination.

(10:31):
These conversations were laterpublished in Jones's 1992 book
Let Me Take you Down Inside theMind of Mark David Chapman,
which provides an unsettlingglimpse into Chapman's inner
thoughts and motivations andalso served as the inspiration
for the 2007 film, chapter 27.

Ashley (10:49):
And I will say if this is a topic or story or case or
person that you're interested in, then I would highly recommend
this book.
There are repeated spots whereit's like three, four, five
pages of just Mark DavidChapman's direct wordings.

Remi (11:09):
I also want to point out I have never seen an interview
with Mark David Chapman and Idon't really have anything to go
on as far as Leto's performanceto base it on, but from a
physical resemblance it isuncanny what Leto did to fill
that role.
Chapman had a notable obsessionwith the JD Salinger novel the
Catcher in the Rye, idolizingthe book's protagonist, holden

(11:31):
Caulfield, and was even carryinga copy of the book in his coat
pocket at the time of Lennon'smurder.
The film's title Chapter 27,serves as a reference to the
novel, which itself ends atChapter 26.
Have you ever read the Catcherin the Rye, ashley?
I haven't.
I think I was supposed to backin high school but I have not.

Ashley (11:51):
I also don't think I've ever read it.
We read a lot of those classics, literary classics, in high
school, but I don't rememberthis one at all.
As for the chapter 27, I didlook this up a bit and it sounds
like the book ends somewhatabruptly.
So people were all hopeful thatanother one would be written,

(12:12):
but it obviously never was.

Remi (12:14):
There are several parts in the film where Chapman is
comparing himself to HoldenCaulfield and specifically their
life stories kind of beingsimilar in some way.
Do you know anything about thebook or its plot?
Did it mirror Chapman's life atall?

Ashley (12:30):
I did look up the plot.
So Catcher in the Rye is like acoming of age novel.
It's actually many think it waswritten for older adolescents,
but a lot of adults are the onesthat really gravitated towards
it.
But it follows Holden Caulfield, a teenager who was expelled
from a prep school and is reallyjust wandering around New York

(12:53):
trying to figure out what he'sgoing to do in the real world.
And he I think he's like 16, 17at the time and he starts
fantasizing about being aquote-unquote catcher in the rye
and saving kids from adulthood,which he perceives to be phony
and corrupt.

Remi (13:13):
Does he end up in a mental institution at the end?
Spoilers for anyone who hasn'tread this very old novel.

Ashley (13:20):
No, I don't think Holden Caulfield does.
I have a theory about whyMark's time in New York mirrored
Holden Caulfield's in New Yorkin the book, but we'll get into
that later, once we have abetter understanding of
everything that went down duringthis three-day trip and also
another one he took a few monthsprior.

Remi (13:41):
According to Mojo magazine , the title was additionally
influenced by Robert Rosen'sbook Nowhere man the Final Days
of John Lennon, which exploresthe numerological significance
of the number 27, which JohnLennon himself reportedly found
meaningful due to hisfascination with numerology and
Cairo's book of numbers.

(14:02):
Rosen speculated that Chapmanviewed the murder as a way to
write Chapter 27 in Lenin'sblood, a theory which Rosen
described as self-evident toanyone who has read his book.
Like Chapman, screenwriterJarrett Schaeffer had a similar
passion for both the Beatles andthe Catcher in the Rye, and
would later explain that thescript had been born from his

(14:23):
desire to understand how someonecould commit such a violent act
inspired by works of art thathe personally found so deeply
uplifting throughout his ownlife.
Schaefer spent four yearscrafting the screenplay, but
once it was complete, producersAlexandra Michelin and Robert
Salerno quickly helped bring thestory to life, beginning with
the casting of Jared Leto asMark David Chapman.

(14:46):
For the role, leto underwent adramatic physical transformation
, gaining a whopping 67 poundsby consuming a nightly
concoction of microwaved icecream combined with soy sauce
and olive oil.
Yum.

Ashley (15:02):
In the ice cream.

Remi (15:03):
Yes, it was all mixed together like a smoothie and he
said in interviews he would justdrink it straight from the tub.
He would put the ice cream inthe microwave until it was
liquid and then add this soysauce and olive oil, which I
don't understand why.
What's that adding to it?

Ashley (15:16):
Fats.

Remi (15:17):
Okay, this seems incredibly unhealthy and, as we
will learn in a minute, itreally was incredibly unhealthy.
Unhealthy and, as we will learnin a minute, it really was
incredibly unhealthy.
Leto had previously lost 25pounds in order to portray a
heroin addict in the filmRequiem for a Dream back in the
year 2000, but has sincedescribed his weight gain for
Chapter 27 as a far moregrueling ordeal overall.

Ashley (15:39):
Because you're eating ice cream drizzled with olive
oil and soy sauce.
That's so disgusting.

Remi (15:46):
Well, Leto's rapid increase in weight additionally
took a toll on his body as well,causing him to develop gout and
temporarily require the use ofa wheelchair to help manage the
strain he was experiencing onset Doesn't sound worth it,
Jared.
Just do a fat suit next time.
Leto later explained in an ABCinterview promoting the film

(16:06):
that altering his physicality sosignificantly dramatically
influenced his approach to therole psychologically as well.

ABC Interview (16:14):
Dude, you got really fat for this movie.
Yes, I did, dude.
You gained 60 pounds?
Yeah, I did.
I gained about 67 pounds.
60 pounds, yeah, I did.
I gained about 67 pounds and itwas one of those, it's strange
to say opportunities, but it wasan important part of the
transformative nature of thischaracter.
It taught me a lot about whothis guy was.

(16:36):
It changed everything about howI walked, how I talked.
It even changed the way that Ilaughed in it.
It was just a real informativepart of the proper preparation.

Remi (16:47):
And I just want to applaud the interviewer on his tactful
way of asking that question toLeto.

Ashley (16:54):
Yeah, they'd probably be a little more sensitive about
it nowadays.

Remi (16:59):
Once filming had wrapped, leto adopted an extreme liquid
diet comprised of a mixture oflemon juice, cayenne pepper and
water, claiming in interviews.
I didn't eat any food for 10days straight and lost 20 pounds
in the first 10 days.
Despite this initial progress,shedding those extra pounds
proved much more challengingthan Leto had anticipated, with

(17:21):
Leto later admitting it tookabout a year to feel semi-normal
again.
I don't think I'll ever fullyget back to where I was
physically.
I'd never do it again.
It definitely caused me someproblems and a little side note
here he lost his weight while hewas on tour with 30 Seconds to
Mars.
Actor Mark Lindsay Chapman, whoplays John Lennon in the film,

(17:43):
was almost cast as the iconicBeatle 22 years earlier in the
1985 biopic John and Yoko A LoveStory.
Despite being impressed by hisaudition, yoko Ono ultimately
decided against his castingafter learning the actor's full
name and referring to it as badkarma.

Ashley (18:03):
That makes sense.

Remi (18:05):
Years later, while casting for Chapter 27, Jarrett
Schaefer reviewed countlessLennon impersonators but found
many of their portrayals of thelegendary rock star to be overly
idealized.
Mark Lindsay Chapman, on theother hand, managed to capture
Lennon's tough-town persona andsharp wit effortlessly, Schaefer
explained.

Ashley (18:42):
Lennon's murderer.

Remi (18:44):
Agreed.
What are the odds of that?
I think when I first wasreading the cast list for this,
I did a double take Like wait,there's someone with that name
in the cast playing John Lennonof all people.
Filming began in Manhattan in2006, with many scenes being
shot outside the Dakotaapartment building where John
Lennon had been murdered.
Schaefer acknowledged thechallenge of working at such a

(19:06):
sensitive location, stating Ihad to bring trucks, a crew and
a tight schedule into a placethat holds so much emotional
weight.
It wasn't easy.

Ashley (19:15):
Have you seen the Dakota ?

Remi (19:16):
I have yes, way back in the day when I was living in New
York, I walked by all thefamous hotels in New York many
times, and this one is byCentral Park, so it's
conveniently located if you wantto stroll past the front and
then continue on into the parkafterwards.
It is a cool looking building.

Ashley (19:33):
That's where I saw it too obviously, when I was at
Central Park.
One time my dad pointed it outand said that that's where John
Lennon was murdered and whereYoko Ono still lives to this day
.

Remi (19:44):
I was unaware that she still lived there.
You'd think that she wouldleave just because of the trauma
that place would bring up forher.
I mean, her husband diedliterally right in front of the
building.
It's very surprising to me thatshe stayed.

Ashley (19:57):
It's her home.

Remi (19:59):
Out of respect for the residents of the Dakota, no
scenes depicting Lennon werefilmed at the location.
Instead, those sequences werefilmed at the location.
Instead, those sequences wereshot at Steiner Studios in
Brooklyn where the team couldmaintain a controlled
environment.
Producer Robert Salernoexplained that it was important
to Jarrett that we didn'tglorify this moment, and
shooting those scenes elsewhereallowed us to be respectful

(20:21):
while still telling the story usto be respectful while still
telling the story.

Ashley (20:25):
Side note, I just googled it she actually moved to
a huge farm in 2023.
So she still lived there untilabout a year ago.
I think it looks like aboutFebruary.

Remi (20:35):
Is she still in New York?

Ashley (20:37):
Yeah, it says it's a 600 acre farm in New York.

Remi (20:41):
Wow, all right, nice, peaceful place for her to spend
her later years.
That's nice.

Ashley (20:46):
She and Lennon purchased the farm in 1978 as a retreat
and to raise dairy cows, but shestill owns her apartment in the
Dakota.

Remi (20:55):
And before we dive into the film, I just want to point
out that I did attempt to findsome information on how Lindsay
Lohan got this role and what thecasting process was for her.
But there is no information Icould find at all, and it seems
like this was filmed around thetime of Lohan's party girl phase

(21:17):
, where she was constantly lateto things and just out partying
and smoking cigarettes and doingthat thing.
So I could not find anyinterviews with her promoting
the film.
I could not find anything abouther involvement with this, but
that may be due to some personalconnections she has with the
Lennon family, which I will getto at the end.

(21:38):
But now shall we dive intoChapter 27?
.

Ashley (21:41):
Yes, let's do it.

Remi (21:50):
Our story begins with a narration from Mark David
Chapman, played by Jared Leto,comparing himself to Holden
Caulfield, the broodinganti-hero from JD Salinger's the
Catcher in the Rye.
In contrast with Chapman'svoiceover, we watch as
slow-motion waves crash againstthe beautiful shores of Hawaii,
until the serene imagery isabruptly replaced with real-life

(22:11):
news footage announcingChapman's arrest for the murder
of John Lennon.
The opening credits then rollover shots of a hauntingly red
rye field ominously swayinggently in the wind.
Through somber voiceover,chapman addresses the audience
directly, stating that hispersonal history is irrelevant
and all that matters now arethose three days he spent in New

(22:31):
York City, which culminated inthe murder of one of the most
beloved musicians of all time.
The scene then shifts toChapman's plane landing in New
York.
After hailing a cab, chapmanawkwardly attempts to conversate
with the driver by asking wherethe ducks in Central Park go
every year during the winter.
Unamused, the driver brushesoff Chapman's foolish question

(22:52):
and resumes ignoring his oddpassenger.
On first impression, chapman ispresented as a disheveled yet
calculated individual with anunsettling air of detachment and
a quiet but intense demeanorhinting at an inner turmoil that
is seething just beneath thesurface.
After arriving at his motel,Chapman checks into a bleak,

(23:14):
dimly lit room with barredwindows, amidst an atmosphere of
stagnant isolation and utterunease.
After a brief moment ofreflection by the window,
chapman hastily dresses andventures out into the cold
streets of New York City as hismind races with conflicting
thoughts of determination anddoubt regarding his dark
intentions.
Outside, christmas is in theair, with festive decorations

(23:37):
illuminating the otherwise grayurban landscape.
As Chapman wanders the city, heeventually finds himself
standing in front of the iconicDakota apartment building on
Manhattan's Upper West Side,which also happens to be the
same location where John Lennon,yoko Ono and their son Sean all
reside.

Ashley (23:55):
Mia Farrow also lived there at the time fun fact.

Remi (23:59):
And Rosemary's Baby was filmed there, but we'll get into
that a little bit later.
Surprisingly, in front of theDakota, a small group of adoring
fans are gathered in the hopesof catching a brief glimpse of
the legendary Beatle on his wayin and out of the building.
Among them is Jude, a vibrantyoung woman in a red coat being
played by Lindsay Lohan.
Chapman joins the crowd,strikes up a casual conversation

(24:22):
with Jude and at first theirshared admiration for Lennon and
the Beatles seems to havebridged the gap between them.
However, the interaction takesan awkward turn when Jude
offhandedly mentions Lennon'srecently released album Double
Fantasy, only to realize thatChapman has absolutely no idea
it even existed.
Somewhat embarrassed, chapmanexplains that he traveled all

(24:44):
the way from Hawaii to getLennon's autograph.
So Jude suggests that he buythe new album for Lennon to sign
.
Following her advice, chapmanheads down to a record shop on
Broadway where he purchasesDouble Fantasy, though he is a
bit grumbly about the price.
Chapman eagerly returns to theDakota to proudly show off his
new acquisition to Jude and herfriend.

(25:04):
While looking over the album,jude points out an intriguing
detail that the photograph onthe back features an image of
the front of the Dakota buildingwhere they are both currently
standing.
Delighted by this coincidence,chapman surreally mimics
Lennon's pose from the albumcover, standing completely still
and silent by the curb forseveral moments.

(25:25):
As the day drags on, judelightens the mood by inviting
Chapman to join her and herfriend for a movie later, but
Chapman declines, then launchesinto a rant about how movies are
too goddamn phony.
As an alternative, chapmanproposes that he take them out
to a Japanese restaurant instead, while simultaneously boasting
about his worldly travels.

(25:45):
Jude and her friend are bothclearly uncomfortable with the
suggestion, but reluctantlyagree and assure Chapman that
they'll return to the Dakotalater on to reconvene for dinner
.
Now alone, chapman waits forhours in front of the Dakota,
clutching his double fantasyalbum, as the other fans around
him gradually disperse.

(26:10):
As the night falls, the coldgrows unbearable, with still no
sign of Lennon in sight.
In time, chapman inevitablysurrenders to the freezing New
York weather and is forced toretreat back to his dingy motel
room.
And I just want to say fromexperience if you are coming
from Hawaii, new York winter isdefinitely going gonna be a
shock for you.
It is blisteringly cold,especially in December.

(26:31):
Later that night, chapman isjolted awake by muffled voices
and the unmistakable sounds ofintimacy echoing through the
paper-thin walls of his seedymotel room.
Exhausted and irritable, hecontemplates using the pistol he
brought with him to silence thenoises coming from the
adjoining room.
But he ultimately resists theurge and instead attempts to

(26:52):
calm himself by reading theBible.
Unable to sleep, chapman getsdressed and ventures out into
the eerie, deserted streets ofNew York City in the wee small
hours of the morning.
As Chapman strolls the emptycityscape, he encounters a
homeless man shoutingincoherently and behaving
erratically.
Feeling unsettled, chapmanhails a taxi cab and asks the
driver to take him to a nicehotel that isn't too expensive.

(27:15):
During the ride, chapman'sloneliness and desperation
bubble to the surface yet again,as he awkwardly invites the cab
driver to stop for a drink withhim, but the driver politely
declines.
Still seeking some sort ofvalidation from the cabbie,
chapman continues by contrivingan elaborate lie, claiming that
he had just come from arecording session with none

(27:36):
other than John Lennon and PaulMcCartney.
Chapman even brags that theiconic musicians complimented
his work that night.
And though the driver remainsprofessional, he is clearly
unimpressed by Chapman'sfabricated tale.

Ashley (27:49):
I'm pretty sure John Lennon had little to no contact
with any of the Beatles at thistime.
It was just him and Yoko takingon the world.
So if this guy knew anythingabout the Beatles, he'd be like
highly unlikely dude.

Remi (28:03):
This seems like it's Chapman just speaking aloud his
fantasy of what he wishes he wasdoing that night.
He wishes he was the engineerat a recording session where
john and paul have reunitedafter breaking up all those
years ago and them evencomplimenting him.
It's just a fantasy.
He has nothing in his life thathe seems to take pride in or

(28:27):
enjoy.
He seems very lonely andisolated, even though he does
have a family back in Hawaii.

Ashley (28:33):
He has a wife.
Yeah, I think he wants to beseen as someone who is important
and a somebody because he feelsthat he is just no one in this
world.

Remi (28:44):
Agreed, feels that he is just no one in this world Agreed
.
The cab eventually pulls up toan upscale hotel called the
Sheraton Center, with a historyof hosting prominent figures,
including former President JimmyCarter.

Ashley (28:55):
RIP.

Remi (28:56):
Chapman checks in and is visibly more at ease with the
improved accommodations as hesettles into his room, basking
the notion that the space wherehe is sleeping that evening may
have once housed an actualpresident.

Ashley (29:09):
I also can't remember if I read this in the book or if
it was in something else I read,but I read somewhere that he
actually checked in to the 27thfloor.
I don't know if the hotel goesup that high, but I just thought
that was really interesting ifit was true, and it would kind
of make sense with his obsessionof the catcher in the rye.

Remi (29:29):
This was not in the movie, but I remember hearing
somewhere it might have beenfrom my dad or urban legends,
but did he check into the hotelunder the name Holden Caulfield
or check out under the name JohnLennon, something like that, or
check?

Ashley (29:43):
out under the name John Lennon, something like that.
He did not to this hotel, butthere are other times where he
wrote down his name as boththose names.

Remi (29:53):
The following day, on December 7th 1980, chapman
resumes his vigil, patientlywaiting for John Lennon to
appear outside of the Dakotabuilding.
Desperate for some kind ofupdate on Lennon's exact
whereabouts, chapman tries tostrike up a conversation with
Steve, the Dakota building'sdoorman.
Chapman reminds Steve that theyhad actually met a month ago

(30:18):
during his previous trip to NewYork, when Chapman had first
attempted unsuccessfully to meetJohn Lennon.
Steve, however, remains coldand uninterested, by ignoring
Chapman's attempts atfamiliarity.
Chapman just keeps trying totalk to people and besides Jude,
it seems like no one wantsanything to do with this guy.

Ashley (30:35):
These doormen put up with fans standing outside this
building all day, every day.
I'm sure they just are soannoyed all the time.

Remi (30:44):
There is one doorman who is nice to him and it is stated
that he is new, so he has notbeen going through this for as
long as the others have.
But yeah, I think that woulddefinitely wear you down after
dealing with all these fansevery day.
Is he in?
Is he in today?
Is he coming out?
He was like dude.
Let me just stand here and openthe door and do my job.

Ashley (31:04):
Well, and it wasn't just John Lennon and Yoko, although
they were clearly the biggestdraw, but there was a lot of
celebrities living in there atthe time, so all the doormen
were always supposed to say thisrepeated line about how they
didn't even know if insert namehere was in town and they had no
further information about theirwhereabouts, which makes sense
for safety reasons about theirwhereabouts, which makes sense

(31:25):
for safety reasons.

Remi (31:27):
I think that's standard protocol for any celebrities.
If they're in a building, ifthey're at a restaurant, if
they're anywhere, the peopleworking there are not allowed to
give out the information thatthey saw them or they know
they're there or they knowthey're coming at a certain time
.
And if they do and they're foundout, obviously they would lose
their job.
Growing restless, chapmandecides to take a break and walk
over to a nearby bookstore justoff Broadway.

(31:49):
There he purchases a postcardfeaturing characters from the
Wizard of Oz, along with anissue of Savoy Fantasy magazine
which includes an interview withJohn Lennon and, lastly, a pen
for the autograph he so eagerlyhoped to secure.
And lastly, a pen for theautograph he so eagerly hoped to
secure.
Later, while eating lunch,chapman eagerly reads the Lennon

(32:11):
interview in the magazine hehad acquired.
But his admiration andenthusiasm quickly curdles into
abject rage as he begins tofixate on what he perceives.
That Lennon preaches all ofthis stuff about being together
and not having possessions and,you know, living that hippie

(32:32):
lifestyle.
But Chapman perceives him as arich person saying these things,
so he feels like it is phony.

Ashley (32:40):
That is spot on.

Remi (32:41):
That is spot on.
Returning to his hotel, chapmanhires an escort under the
caveat that she will be tippedgenerously as long as she
doesn't speak during theirencounter.
Though clearly unsettled, thewoman complies with his
instructions and they proceedwith their cringeworthy
transaction.
After she leaves, chapman isleft alone yet again with his

(33:01):
spiraling thoughts andmomentarily contemplates suicide
.
Desperate for words ofencouragement, chapman makes a
collect phone call to his wife,gloria, back in Hawaii.
Under the alias HoldenCaulfield, he confesses his
struggles adjusting to thecity's oppressive environment.
So Gloria advises him to seeksolace through the words of
Christ by reading the Bible.

(33:23):
After the phone call has ended,chapman ominously whispers into
the receiver I'm going to killJohn Lennon.
Just as the line goes dead.
The following morning, chapmanawakens with a renewed sense of
purpose as he meticulously laysout a collection of his personal
items on the nightstand to bediscovered after his arrest.
These include a letter ofcommendation for his work with

(33:46):
Vietnamese children, a Bible,the Wizard of Oz postcard, his
passport and photographs fromhis travels around the world.
It seems like he was layingthese things out as a
representation of who he wasLike, if someone walked into the
room and wanted to know whatkind of person he was just by
looking at the desk.
That is the type of person hewanted represented to the world

(34:08):
and that's why he left thisstuff out.
Dressing carefully, chapmanconceals his handgun in his
right coat pocket, tucked behinda slim notebook, before
grabbing his double fantasyalbum and leaving the hotel.
On his way back to the Dakota,chapman stops at the bookstore
once more to purchase a copy ofthe Catcher in the Rye.
On the inside cover he writesTo Holden Caulfield.

(34:29):
From Holden Caulfield this ismy statement.
Back at the Dakota, chapmanlearns from a different doorman
that Lennon had actually justleft earlier that morning but is
expected to return later in theday.
This is the doorman I told youwas new.
To return later in the day.
This is the doorman I told youwas new.
Killing some time.
Chapman takes a walk throughCentral Park where he begins
re-reading his copy of theCatcher in the Rye as the lines

(34:51):
between his identity and HoldenCaulfield become increasingly
blurred.
Returning to the Dakota,chapman briefly dozes off and
misses his initial opportunityto meet John Lennon.
Frustrated but undeterred,chapman continues to wait for
several more hours whilemaintaining his steadfast
position there on the sidewalk.
Later on, chapman happens uponJude, the red-coated fan he had

(35:14):
met the day before, and the twodecide to head across the street
to grab some lunch together.
Jude apologizes for missingtheir rendezvous the previous
evening, but explains that sheand her friend had unexpectedly
run into John Lennon exiting ataxi cab while they were on
their way.
Jude continues her doting bymentioning that Lennon had
actually stopped to chat withthem for a moment and her friend

(35:36):
had even managed to bump acigarette off of him during the
encounter, which only furtherfuels Chapman's jealousy.
Over lunch, the two discuss thestark contrasts between New
York and Hawaii, leading toChapman growing increasingly
animated, while passionatelyurging Jude to visit the islands
as soon as possible.
When they return to the Dakota,they run into a photographer

(35:59):
named Paul Gorsch, played byJudah Friedlander, who has also
joined the crowd.
While making small talk, gorshreveals that the satanic classic
Rosemary's Baby had been filmedright there at the Dakota,
sending Chapman into adelusional rant regarding his
perceived connections betweenCharles Manson, helter Skelter,

(36:20):
john Lennon and the Sharon Tatemurders.
I didn't like that movie why?

Because it says everyone who lives in the Dakota
worships Satan.

Mark David Chapman (36:28):
Well, yes, also because it's a very slow
movie.
Nothing happens until the end.

ABC Interview (36:33):
Yeah, but Jude, that's Polanski.
Well then, I don't like heywait, wait, wait.

That's the guy.
Charles Manson killed his wifeRight, is she on tape?
Yeah, she was pregnant, though.
Pretty beautiful Hell to scaleto John Lennon.
John Lennon lives in a buildingwhere a film about satan coming

(37:05):
to earth, that the director,his wife and child were killed
because of a song.
That john, oh my god, this isnot a coincidence.
Today's the day.
Today is the day.
Today is the day.

Ashley (37:26):
I would be like bye Mark .

Remi (37:28):
He is a very socially awkward man, that is for sure.
The discussion soon escalatesinto a minor physical
altercation between Chapman andGorsh after Gorsh questions the
legitimacy of Chapman's Hawaiianorigins.
Alarmed by Chapman's erraticbehavior, Jude excuses herself
and hurries across the streetinto Central Park, clearly

(37:51):
seeking some distance fromChapman's increasingly intense
demeanor.
Despite her attempt to escapethe situation, Chapman follows
Jude into the park, trailing herbriskly from behind.
While walking, Jude stops for amoment to exchange pleasantries
with a nanny playfullystrolling through the park with
a small boy.
After inserting himself intothe conversation, Chapman soon

(38:15):
realizes that the child beforehim is none other than John
Lennon's youngest son, Sean.
Chapman chillingly introduceshimself to Sean and continues by
disturbingly emphasizing justhow far he's come to meet the
boy's father.
Sensing the growing unease, thegroup soon parts ways and Jude
wishes Chapman luck in his questto obtain John's autograph.

(38:36):
However, still desperate forcompanionship, Chapman chases
after Jude, pleading with her tostay and wait with him just a
little while longer.
With her discomfort mounting,she repeatedly refuses until she
is finally able to escape,leaving Chapman alone once again

(38:57):
.
As the sun begins to set, slowlydarkening the city's skyline,
Chapman returns to his postoutside of the Dakota, where the
usual crowd of fans have allmostly dispersed for the
remainder of the evening.
Besides Chapman, the only otherholdout is Paul Gorsch, the
photographer, who is still saltyabout Chapman's earlier
outburst.
Chapman timidly apologizes forhis actions and Gorsch
begrudgingly accepts, butremains uneasy in Chapman's

(39:17):
presence.
A short while later, activitystirs at the Dakota's entrance
as a group exits the building.
Then, moments later, JohnLennon himself finally appears.
For several long secondsChapman stands there frozen,
staring in awe at the man he hasequally idolized and resented
so severely.
After regaining his composure,Chapman steps forward clutching

(39:40):
the double fantasy album alongwith the pen he had carefully
selected for this very moment.
Summoning all of his courage,Chapman hands the album to
Lennon and the musiciangraciously signs it as Gorsh
feverishly snaps severalphotographs of the encounter

(40:02):
from the sidelines.

Thanks, is that all you want?
Yeah, thanks, you sure that'sall.
Yeah, that's all.
Thanks, john, you're welcome.

Ashley (40:36):
It is crazy, with how famous John Lennon was at this
time, how accessible he was tofans.
From what I read, the reasonwhy people flocked out of the
Dakota is because they knew ifthey caught him when he was
going in and out of the buildinghe would stop to shake people's
hands and sign autographs forthem every single time.

Remi (40:55):
And even in the clip we just heard he is very nice to
Chapman.
He asks him if there's anythingelse he needs.
He says you're welcome, he isbeing very kind.
And it just makes everything 10times more tragic knowing he
was so accessible because heliked connecting with his fans
and it ended up being hisdownfall.
Chapman's brief interactionwith John Lennon leaves him

(41:19):
utterly starstruck and giddywith excitement as he clutches
his double fantasy album closelyto his chest, seemingly elated
to have finally achieved thegoal he had pursued so
relentlessly.
Turning his attention to Gorsh,chapman eagerly offers him $50
for one of the photographs hehad captured during their
interaction.
Visibly uneasy but remainingpolite, gorsh promises to return

(41:43):
the following morning with thephotograph, after he gets the
film developed, but Chapmanpleads for him not to leave just
yet.
Gorsh still declines and leavesChapman alone in the cold, dark
silence outside of the Dakotabuilding, with only his
spiraling thoughts left to keephim company.

Nobody, nothing.
He wasn't phony.
He's getting a taxi, you coward, you, phony, you got your
autograph.
Go home, frame it, put it onthe wall.
Put it on the wall.
Don't listen to them, don'tmake a door.
There's no place like home.

Ashley (42:27):
Come on, come on this internal struggle is described
in the book.
He kept fluctuating betweentrying to convince himself to
leave and get himself to stay,and that's why he said he tried
so hard to get jude and thephotographer to stay.
He claims if either of themwould have been with him he

(42:48):
wouldn't have done what he did,which is kind of shitty.
So blame it on these twoinnocent people that had no idea
what his intentions were and,you know, maybe if they would
have stayed he wouldn't havedone it that night, but he had
endless nights that he couldhave and would have done this.

Remi (43:05):
As the hours pass, chapman's internal struggle
persists, but ultimately hechooses to stay and wait for
Lennon's return.
Eventually, a white limousinepulls up to the front of the
Dakota building as Chapman lookson nervously waiting in
anticipation.
Yoko Ono exits the limo firstand makes her way towards the
building's entrance, followedclosely by her husband, john

(43:28):
Lennon, walking just a few stepsbehind her.
Emerging from the shadows,chapman calls out Mr Lennon as
he draws his handgun and firesoff five shots into the back of
John Lennon.
After a moment of shockedsilence, yoko Ono's anguished
cries are all that can be heard,shattering through the
stillness as Chapman standsthere, paralyzed by the

(43:48):
realization of having finallycarried out his twisted fantasy.
Chapman makes no attempt toflee the scene and is quickly
arrested by the police andtransported to Bellevue Hospital
, where he is placed under closesuicide watch.
The film's final moments featurereal-life news footage mourning
the tragic loss of John Lennon.
As the closing title card readsFor several years, john

(44:11):
Lennon's killer alternatedbetween the belief that he was
the embodiment of HoldenCaulfield and a renewed faith in
the Bible.
Today he is a born-againChristian.
In 2001, he became eligible forparole as of 2006,.
He has had four hearings andbeen denied each time, and that
was Jarrett Schaefer's Chapter27.

(44:32):
What do you think, ashley?

Ashley (44:34):
I'm curious so how you open this episode?
And obviously the whole movieis just about these three days
that he spent in New York, where90% of what he did was just
stand around the building.
Did that make the movie boring?
Do you wish they would haveexpanded the timeline of it a
bit to feature more of his lifeand descent to madness?

Remi (44:56):
I do.
Actually, I remember when Ifirst saw this film none of that
really bothered me and I was alot more into movies where not
much of a plot or story happens.
But upon this rewatch, thebiggest draw to this film is
Leto's performance and the filmitself is kind of like Jude's

(45:17):
review of Rosemary's Baby.
Nothing really happens untilthe very end of the film.
It is three days of a manwaiting in front of a building
and it was interesting to havecertain parts revealed within
the story.
Like I didn't know he had awife and the scene where he
calls his wife was kind of asurprise to me.
I had no idea this guy actuallyhad attachments, yet still felt

(45:38):
so alone and isolated.
So it was a neat reveal.
But I think it would be strongerto see his life in Hawaii.
I think it would have beenstronger to even see that first
visit to New York where nothinghappened and he was unsuccessful
, and that month where he wasprobably going through a lot of
internal struggle of going back.
Was this the right move?
Was that a sign?

(45:58):
I just think that there wasmore to his story than just
those three days, despite whatthe character says at the
beginning of the film when hesays that the only thing that
matters are those three days.
I think that to know thischaracter fully, it would have
helped a lot more to get more ofhis backstory.

Ashley (46:17):
I also think it would have helped understand a little
bit more about why he was soobsessed with the Catcher in the
Rye and why he hated JohnLennon so deeply, even though as
a child he idolized this man.

Remi (46:28):
I think it would be interesting to see that turn.
I think it would have beenfascinating to see someone going
from love and devotion todespising someone.
It would have been aninteresting character arc, I
guess you could say for Chapman.

Ashley (46:46):
What I will say.
From those clips you've shownme and I've also obviously seen
the poster for this movie JaredLeto looks almost completely
unrecognizable.
The transformation is wild andthe voice he's doing is nothing
like how he actually sounds.
And he was right in thatinterview he gave.
He does walk and carry himselfdifferently.
I think it's not only theweight that is doing that, but I

(47:09):
think when he walks it lookslike his shoulders are kind of
hunched in and his head and neckare sunken down.
So he's trying to embody how heimagines that Mark David
Chapman felt.

Remi (47:22):
As dangerous as it was gaining 60 plus pounds for this
role.
I do think that it helped hisperformance.
Like you said, it affected hisbody language.
Even something like hisconfidence was probably affected
by the weight gain, and thatwas coming out as well in his
performance.
Just little things like thatreally went a long way with

(47:44):
Leto's performance in this and Ireally think he does a
phenomenal job.
It did go under the radar, likeI said, but this was a
performance I felt should havebeen nominated for an Academy
Award.
He is unrecognizable, asidefrom you can still see his face
in there, but other than that,his voice, his posture,
everything else is completelydifferent and he is the reason

(48:06):
to see this movie, if you'regoing to watch this movie.
So let's get intopost-production now.
Chapter 27 had its worldpremiere at the Sundance Film
Festival in January of 2007 andhad a limited release in the
United States on March 28, 2008in just one theater.

Ashley (48:26):
Do you know where that one theater was?

Remi (48:28):
I'm assuming it was Los Angeles, but I don't know for
sure.
If there was going to be onetheater that shows it, it would
probably be LA.
In that one theater, the filmmanaged to earn just shy of
$14,000 in its debut weekend.
Surprisingly, its revenue grewby 11 percent during its second
weekend, pulling in another 15thousand dollars from five more

(48:51):
theaters.
By the end of its run, chapter27 had grossed over 56 thousand
dollars domestically and anadditional 131 thousand dollars
internationally, bringing itstotal worldwide earnings to
roughly one hundred and eightyseven thousand dollars, and for
a film that is very, very, very,very bad.

Ashley (49:10):
But it didn't even really have a chance.
It's in five, six theaters.

Remi (49:15):
It seems like this movie was gaining some momentum.
They released it in one theater.
It did surprisingly well.
They expanded it, it did better, but then from there.
I don't know if thedistribution company began
getting cold feet because ofsome of the negative press that
was coming out, but they neverexpanded it beyond that and as a
result it made nothing at thebox office and I'm assuming not

(49:39):
a lot of people went out andbought this on DVD afterwards.
So financially speaking, thisfilm was a complete failure and
the director has not had anotherfilm since.

Ashley (49:49):
That kind of sucks for the director, because it sounds
like it wasn't his fault that itdidn't do well.
It sounds like it was theproduction companies being
unwilling to take a chance andstand behind this movie.
From the scenes you show me, itlooks like it's shot well and
directed well.

Remi (50:05):
Well, on Rotten Tomatoes, the film currently holds an 18%
approval rating, with a criticalconsensus.
That reads despite Jared Leto'scommitted performance, chapter
27 fails to penetrate the mindof Mark David Chapman, john
Lennon's killer, and I just haveto say 18% is bullshit.
That is crazy.

(50:26):
I've seen much worse films thathave higher ratings than this
18%.
Like come on guys 18% isinsanely low.

Ashley (50:36):
I just looked up one of the other movies that we watched
that I know you hated Lucy inthe Sky.
That has 21.
So I think this movie is thelowest rated Rotten Tomatoes
movie that we have reviewed.

Remi (50:49):
Lucy in the Sky has zero redeeming qualities.
The movie is bad, theperformances are bad, the plot
is bad.
Everything about it is bad.
This one has a redeemingquality.
Leto's performance is theredeeming quality and I think
that in and of itself should getthe film a slightly better
rating than 18%.
And I think the film was donerealistically as well.

(51:10):
I don't think it was badlydirected or badly written or any
of that.
So it's kind of a shame thatthis film just died.

Ashley (51:17):
If you would have to rate it, what would you rate it?
I think 60 is when it gets thatlittle tomato.

Remi (51:22):
I think I would probably rate it around a 60%.
Personally, I don't think it'sthe best thing out there, but I
do think that Leto's performanceis something to see and I think
that the story.
you will correct me if I'm wrongin just a bit, but it seems
very accurate, it seems veryrealistic and for a movie where
someone's waiting in front of abuilding for three days, there

(51:42):
was never a point wheresomeone's waiting in front of a
building for three days.
There was never a point where Ifelt bored, like I didn't feel
like I was waiting doing nothing.
They fill the time with littlethings that give you glimpses of
who Chapman is.
But overall, yeah, I'm justsurprised that this film did so
poorly and was so poorlyreviewed, because it's not a bad

(52:02):
film, believe it or not.
Leto himself has admittedlynever seen the film and gave the
following statement onMovieMakercom I generally don't
watch myself.
It's a strange point of view tolook at your acting that way.
As an actor, my work is prettymuch done when I finish shooting
the film.
It's really a director's movie.

(52:23):
I'm not involved with any ofthe elements once the film is
finished, except to support themovie.

Ashley (52:29):
I feel like there's a lot of actors that don't watch
their movies for that similarreason.

Remi (52:34):
It's weird to watch yourself I've acted in things
back in the day and, yeah, it'sstrange.
It's a weird thing to do Actand watch yourself do it Because
in your head it is verydifferent than what you're
seeing on screen and I feel likeif you are a professional actor
, it may even, like, negativelyaffect your other performances
or make you insecure, like youstart noticing all the things

(52:55):
that you don't like aboutyourself or something you did
wrong.
Like when we were listening tothe autofocus DVD commentary
with the actors and all thelittle things that they were
pointing out in the scenes thatregular people never notice.
But the actors who are soobsessive about their
performance and their appearance, they nitpick all of these
little things about themselves.
And I think Leto though heseems like a pretty confident

(53:18):
dude I think he has maybe someinsecurities and I think
watching himself doing it mightbring those out and negatively
affect future performances.
So I can understand why someactors don't do this.
John Lennon's son, sean Lennon,has gone on record calling the
project tacky and specificallysingled out Lindsay Lohan's

(53:39):
involvement.
Lennon stated that Lohanunderstood his feelings and,
despite his criticisms, theywere still friends and he had no
intention of hurting herfeelings.
So it seems like they werefriends and she said she was
going to do this movie and fromwhat I read, he didn't really
tell her not to do it.
But it was kind of like whatthe fuck, dude, seriously,

(54:00):
you're going to tell me you'restarring in a movie about the
guy who murdered my father.
It is pretty disrespectful anduntasteful on her part, father.
It is pretty disrespectful anduntasteful on her part.
In April of 2006, a groupcalled BoycottChapter27.org
launched an online petitionurging theaters not to screen
the film, arguing that itglorified a murderer.

(54:20):
The group's message echoed arequest from Yoko Ono, paul
McCartney and other Lennonfamily members to never repeat
the name of Lennon's killer.
Doing so would only this mightbe a primary reason why the
producers did not want to pushto put it in more theaters.

(54:44):
This was a man who felt like hewas a nobody and thought he
could become a somebody bymurdering someone who was a
somebody, and I do think a filmabout him is something that he
would really like.
John Lennon's widow, yoko Ono,expressed her own personal
discomfort with the project inthe following statement this is
another thing which will hurt me, I'm sure.

(55:06):
I would rather not make a storyout of Mr Chapman at all,
although I sympathize with theactors.
It's not just films, though.
Everyone's always still talkingabout it, and that was Jarrett
Schaefer's Chapter 27.
Ending on a very sad note fromYoko Ono saying, basically, she
will never not hear about herhusband's death for the rest of

(55:28):
her life, because it is part ofhistory and it's very sad.
I am not a Yoko Ono fan of herart and performance work, but
you cannot help but sympathizewith what this woman went
through.
She saw her husband murdered infront of her and making a movie
about it.
She seems almost to like throwher hands up, like they're going
to do it, whether or not I wantthem to, and it's kind of sad.

(55:48):
What are your thoughts, ashley,on Chapter 27?

Ashley (55:51):
Well, she won't ever escape it.
Every two years, when MarkChapman's up for parole, she
will get a notification from theparole board because she is a
victim of his crime.

Remi (56:03):
Well, it is definitely a haunting and chilling story
about the murder of one of thegreatest musicians of all time,
and now let's find out howaccurate this story was and
hopefully find out some morebackground on Mark David Chapman
, because the movie didn't fillus in on any of that.
So, ashley, do you want to takeit away from here?

Ashley (56:40):
Mark David Chapman was born in Fort Worth, texas, on
May 10, 1955.
Shortly after his father, davidwas discharged from the Air
Force and moved the family ofthree to Indiana.
He enrolled in an engineeringprogram at Purdue University and
worked at the American OilCompany.
Mark's mom, diane, also workedpart-time as a nurse to help put

(57:00):
her husband through college.
Mark was a well-behaved kid.
His fondest memories were ofhis mother, who was incredibly
supportive and nurturing, astark contrast to his workaholic
, emotionally distant father.
Although he didn't drink andalways came home after work, he
often became enraged and tookhis anger out on Diane.
It wasn't unusual for Mark toinsert himself between his

(57:21):
parents when their argumentsbecame vicious, or wake up to
his bruised mom in his bed themorning after a particularly
violent altercation.
David moved the family toDecatur, georgia, for a new work
opportunity with the samecompany after he graduated.
Two years later, they moved toRoanoke, virginia, where Susan
was born.
When Susan was three and Markwas ten, the family relocated

(57:44):
once more and settled in Atlanta, georgia.
It was here where Mark startedto be teased and feel alienated
by his peers.
This caused him to retreat intohimself and create an elaborate
kingdom inside his head ofcitizens who respected him, the
Little People.

Remi (58:01):
The Little People.

Ashley (58:02):
Mark declared himself king of the Little People and he
ruled with an iron fist.
When someone hurt him at schoolor he was mad at his dad, he
punched an imaginary red buttonon the couch and blew up the
homes of his only friends, onlyto apologize later when he
calmed down.

Remi (58:18):
Did it specify how little these people were supposed to be
Like?
Are they action figure sized,or are they like dwarf sized?

Ashley (58:25):
I think they're like tiny little action figure sized
people that he imagined in hishead as millions of people that
he ruled over.

Remi (58:34):
That he would just kill indiscriminately whenever he
felt like he was having a badday.
It made him feel better.

Ashley (58:40):
Yeah, and then he apologized later.

Remi (58:42):
He apologized to the little people.

Ashley (58:44):
Yes, when he calmed down .

Remi (58:45):
Okay.

Ashley (58:47):
Mark was a huge fan of John Lennon and the Beatles
throughout his childhood.
He became curious about drugsafter listening to the Magic
Mystery Tour, got some acid froma neighbor and tripped alone in
his room for the first time atage 14.

Remi (59:00):
And I just want to point out here that it is usually a
pretty bad choice for peoplewith mental disorders to take
hallucinogenics like LSD.
It can make it worse or evenstart it.

Ashley (59:13):
It seems like at this point the little people were a
part of childhood imagination,although blowing them up when he
got mad at his dad obviously isa sign of some unresolved anger
issues.
That's for sure, mark wascompletely hooked after his
first acid trip.
He abandoned his little peopleand vowed to transform himself

(59:33):
from loner nerd to completehippie.

Remi (59:36):
You'd think he'd want to take the little people along
with him.

Ashley (59:39):
When he returned to school in the ninth grade, the
aloof clean-cut Mark was gone.
He found a group of like-mindedfriends, smoked marijuana and
sniffed glue or lighter fluid onthe way to school, shared doses
of blotter acid in the hallwaysand meditated through exams,
often turning in nothing but ablank sheet of paper with his
name on top.

Remi (59:59):
So he was just tripping balls in school and shutting his
eyes and not doing anything.

Ashley (01:00:04):
Pretty much, yeah.
That spring he decided to runaway to join the circus.
He spent two weeks settingaside his lunch money to save up
for a plane ticket and costumes.
Pretty much, yeah.
That spring he decided to runaway to join the circus.
He spent two weeks settingaside his lunch money to save up
for a plane ticket and costumesbought a one-way ticket to
Miami and snuck out beforeanyone was awake.

Remi (01:00:20):
Why was this such a common runaway thing back in the day
Run away and join the circus Didcircuses just accept runaway
kids Like it was a thing?

Ashley (01:00:28):
I have no idea, and I always thought the whole runaway
to join the circus was kind oflike something that was done in
the early 1900s when they hadall those traveling circuses
like Barnum and Bailey's and allof that.
But Mark did this and what.
This would have been the 60s.

Remi (01:00:43):
That's ridiculous.
That is not a good plan.

Ashley (01:00:49):
He spent the first half of his trip following around two
older teens who taught him howto steal and panhandle.
Their goal was to earn enoughmoney to attend the Miami Pop
Festival near the Everglades.
After about a week they ditchedMark, but he decided to walk
the 20 miles to the festivalanyway.
As he approached, he found whathe originally came for a
low-budget carnival on thefringe of the festival.

(01:01:10):
He was actually tasked withguarding the food and drinks in
exchange for lodging for a fewdays.
He ditched his post after hemet Carlos, a young Cuban
immigrant working for his dad'srestaurant equipment repair
business.

Remi (01:01:23):
I want to hop in really quick and just say all of this
should have been in the moviereally quick and just say all of
this should have been in themovie.

Ashley (01:01:30):
After staying with the family for about a week,
Carlos's dad bought him aGreyhound bus ticket to Atlanta
and told him it was time for himto go home.
Mark continued to embrace hishippie persona until the 11th
grade, when he once againstarted the year as a completely
different person.
There were two events that ledto this transformation.
First, he was secretlypickpocketed by some random
teens he met while visiting hisgrandmother, which left him

(01:01:51):
feeling deeply betrayed.
Second, he reunited withchildhood friend and neighbor,
Jessica Blankenship, who invitedhim on several church retreats
and introduced him to herreligious friends.
Like drug culture, Mark threwhimself into religion, vowing to
be the best Christian to everlive.
He handed out pamphletswherever he went, immersed

(01:02:12):
himself in the Bible and spentmost of his free time at
religious meetings.
He also swore a vendettaagainst John Lennon and the
Beatles.
Why would he scorn his formeridols?
Well, he despised a commentLennon gave in which he said the
Beatles were more popular thanJesus.
He also viewed the song Imagineas blasphemous because of the

(01:02:33):
infamous opening line.

Zola Trailer (01:02:41):
It's easy if you try.
No hell below us, above us,only sky.

(01:03:03):
Imagine all the.

Remi (01:03:09):
Personally, I believe that those lines are referring to
the fact that there has been alot of war fought in the name of
religion, and he is imagining aworld where those wars are not
happening anymore.
It's not atheism or anythinglike that, it's the things that
we fight about is what he'sreferring to, I believe.

Ashley (01:03:31):
I agree, and I think Mark really wasn't one to do a
lot of introspection on thingslike that.
I think he just said imaginethere's no heaven.
You're saying there's no God,you are violating one of the Ten
Commandments and speaking badlyabout the creator one of the
Ten Commandments and speakingbadly about the creator.

(01:03:51):
He was taking it very literallyand not looking into the deeper
meaning behind the lyrics.
Mark so despised this song thathe created his own line to sing
at prayer meetings andreligious rallies.
Imagine John Lennon is dead.

Remi (01:04:05):
He just sang that at prayer meetings.
Like didn't anyone like lookover at him and say dude.

Ashley (01:04:11):
Mark's newfound spirituality didn't last too
long.
After about a year he got madthat a meeting went long and
ended before he had a chance toplay a song on the guitar.
He returned to rock and roll,but this time it wasn't the
Beatles who caught his eye, itwas singer-songwriter Todd
Rundgren.
Do you know who this is?

Remi (01:04:30):
Never heard of him before in my life.

Ashley (01:04:32):
I hadn't heard of this guy either, but Mark probably
chose this artist because of ashort press feud he and Lennon
had in the early 70s, where theybasically just bad-mouthed each
other to the press for a bit.

Remi (01:04:44):
So he liked him because he hated John Lennon too.

Ashley (01:04:48):
He doesn't say that's the reason why, but that's my
theory.
Regardless of the reason, heimmersed himself in this guy's
music with the same intensity heapproached Christianity.
So what we're seeing at thispoint is Mark Chapman has no
idea who he is.
He doesn't even know what helikes, he doesn't have a core
group of people that he feelsconnected to, and his sense of

(01:05:12):
identity is non-existent.
He's willing to throw himselfin these interests or hobbies so
fully but then abandon themjust as quickly as he picked
them up.
Mark graduated high school sixmonths early and moved to
Chicago for a few months whilehe and a friend tried to make a
name for themselves as a musicalcomedy sketch group.

(01:05:32):
After returning home, he got ajob at the YMCA, where he also
worked as a summer campcounselor during his teenage
years.
Mark threw himself into his joband was quickly promoted to
assistant program director.
He was a hit with the kids andstaff and genuinely loved his
work.
He worked for the Y for five orsix years and was assigned to

(01:05:52):
multiple intense projects.
For example, he was sent toLebanon for a summer work
program, but the gig was cutshort since the country was in
civil war Before he and his teamwere evacuated, they spent
several weeks huddled underfurniture while bombs, rockets
and gunfire erupted around them.
When he returned to the States,he was sent to a resettlement

(01:06:14):
camp in Arkansas, set up forprocessing the tens and
thousands of refugees displacedby the Vietnam War.
While here, he was promoted toarea coordinator and
re-established his friendshipwith Jessica.
The couple were engaged by thespring of 1976, when Mark moved
to Tennessee to be with her.
He enrolled in the same collegebut dropped out after a

(01:06:35):
semester as he was unable tokeep up with the coursework.
This also marked the end of hisengagement.
Feeling like a complete failure,mark moved back to Georgia and
got a job as night security atthe airport, a hospital and
condos.
This line of work wasdrastically different from his
positions at the Y.
Instead of being around andinteracting with people, which

(01:06:56):
he genuinely loved to do and wasgood at, he patrolled empty
corridors alone at night.
Over time, he becameincreasingly despondent and
convinced himself he was apowerless nobody.
As his depression grew, hedecided he wanted to end his
life in Hawaii, a place hethought he would enjoy his final
days.
After months of planning andsaving, he booked a one-way

(01:07:17):
ticket to Honolulu, although hestayed at a fancy hotel for a
few days, he was forced torelocate to a much smaller and
cheaper room at a YMCA hostel.
Discouraged, he called Jessicaone night and told her why he
was there.
Although she had no intentionof resuming their engagement.
She begged Mark to come home,hoping his depression would

(01:07:38):
improve once he was aroundfriends and family.
The hope of a reconciliationwas enough for him to book a
flight back.
He spent the next few weeksstaying at his parents', with
friends or in cheap hotels.
The one thing that kept hishopes up were memories of those
first few days in Hawaii.
He dreamed of getting a job ata luxury hotel and living on the
island for the rest of his life.

(01:07:59):
In May 1997, he spent the restof his savings and booked his
third one-way ticket betweenGeorgia and Honolulu.

Remi (01:08:07):
Third one-way ticket.

Ashley (01:08:09):
He does this too when he goes back and forth from New
York.
He only buys these one-waytickets, so he is just not a
savvy traveler.
He's spending a lot of extramoney on these flights.
Island living was a bit harderthan expected.
Mark took a series of temporarylow-paying jobs and used any
money he earned for lodging atthe Y.

(01:08:29):
Between paychecks he slept onthe streets and spent hours
talking to a woman on thesuicide hotline.
These calls were so frequentthat she got to know him by name
.
On June 20, 1977, he rented asmall car, bought a vacuum
cleaner hose and drove to adeserted beach.
He hooked the hose to theexhaust, turned on the engine,

(01:08:50):
drifted to sleep and awoke to anelderly man tapping on his
window who disappeared asquickly as he arrived.
Lucky for Mark, the vacuum hosehad melted, which he took as a
sign from God that he wassupposed to live.
The next day he checked himselfinto the mental health unit at
Castle Memorial Hospital, wherehe was diagnosed with acute
depressive disorder, sobasically a form of depression

(01:09:12):
that was caused by socialstressors that came on really
quickly.
Within two weeks he wascheerful and optimistic about
life again.
With the help of hispsychiatrist, he found a place
to live near the hospital andgot a job as a gas station
attendant.
Within days of his July 5thdischarge he returned to the
hospital to work as a volunteerand was actually hired in the

(01:09:34):
janitorial department about amonth later.
While this arrangement iscertainly unconventional, the
staff viewed Mark as one oftheir own and not a former admit
.
He showed true compassion forthe patients, even learning
Japanese so he could speak tothe elderly patients there.
He also had a great sense ofhumor and worked really hard.
They liked him so much thatthey invited him on nearly all

(01:09:56):
staff outings after work.
This changed, however, when anemployee introduced him to a
minister.
After he moved in with the manand his wife, mark started
distancing himself from his newfriends and returned to his
religious obsessions.
Reminiscing on his YMCA days,mark got the travel itch in
early 1978.
Partially inspired by the bookand film Around the World in 80

(01:10:19):
Days, and thanks to thehospital's generous credit
program, he started working witha travel agent to plan a
six-week cross-continentalventure.
A few weeks before hisscheduled departure he started
visiting and calling his travelagent, japanese-american Gloria
Abe, several times a week.
He won her heart by routinelyshowing up with coffee and

(01:10:39):
pastries and sending herflattering thank you notes and
gifts like a teddy bear or adozen roses.
Glorious showed up at hisresidence just as he was loading
his luggage on July 6, 1978.
After a long-awaited smooch, hevowed to send her a postcard
every day, and that's exactlywhat he did, staying primarily
at YMCA hostels thanks to thefree or severely discounted

(01:11:03):
accommodations.
Based on his superior workrecord, mark traveled to Japan,
Korea, china, thailand,singapore, india, nepal, iran,
israel, switzerland, england,ireland and France.
The trip exposed him to thebeauties of the world, but also
to extreme poverty and pain.
Gloria was waiting for Mark atthe gate when he returned to

(01:11:25):
Hawaii on August 20th 1978.
They became virtuallyinseparable and married on June
2nd 1979.
Almost immediately after theytied the knot, mark's parents
began divorce proceedings.
Diane moved to Honolulu tostart a new life, leaving Mark's
17-year-old sister behind.
He became enraged when helearned his dad left his mom

(01:11:47):
with virtually no financialresources.
He felt responsible for her andassumed a parent-like role.
He hired her lawyer, helped herget a job at Sears and allowed
her to accompany him and his newwife on dinner dates, cruises
and other romantic excursions.
Despite Gloria's protests,other than his mom's midlife
crisis, the newlyweds were happy, at least during the first six

(01:12:10):
months, before the credit cardbills started piling up.
You see, mark always liked tospend money on things he
couldn't afford.
It made him feel important,like he was a somebody.
Things got real bad when hestarted spending thousands upon
thousands of dollars on art.
Towards the end of 1979, heaccepted a promotion as the

(01:12:31):
printer and public relationsrepresentative for the hospital.
Although it came with asubstantial pay increase, Mark
said it was one of the worstdecisions he ever made.
Not only was it a moredemanding job, but he spent most
of his time alone sitting inthe printing studio rather than
interacting with the patientsand staff he loved.
While waiting for largeprinting jobs to finish, he

(01:12:51):
often found himself in theprinting studio rather than
interacting with the patientsand staff he loved.
While waiting for largeprinting jobs to finish, he
often found himself in thekitchen stuffing his face with
sweets.
It wasn't long before hisdepression returned, this time
with a dash of paranoia andanger.
His increasing hostilityresulted in him being fired from
his job after a confrontationwith a female nurse, although he
was quickly hired back so hecould resign instead.
Desperate for cash, markreturned to another job.

(01:13:14):
He hated security work.
In March 1980, he abandoned hisobsession with art and decided
it was time to get his financesin order.
He got up early and spent allday at the kitchen table
churning the numbers.
He got up early and spent allday at the kitchen table
churning the numbers, realizinghe needed help.
He summoned his little peoplefor the first time in nearly 10
years, but this time they hadevolved into a more mature,

(01:13:38):
democratic form of governmentwith Mark being named the
president.
He explained the little peopleto Gloria after she found him
sitting at the kitchen tablestaring into space and talking
to someone With the help of thecitizens in his head.
He actually got all of his debtpaid off several months ahead
of the deadline.

Remi (01:13:56):
By September 1980, three months before the murder of John
Lennon.

Ashley (01:14:06):
Mark was spending most of his free time at the public
library talking to his littlepeople and wandering the streets
of Honolulu with a drink inhand.
One day at the library hestumbled upon Anthony Fawcett's
book John Lennon One Day at aTime.
It followed the life of Lennonand Yoko through the 70s and
detailed their lavish lifestylein New York as residents of the

(01:14:29):
Dakota.
Mark believed he discovered thereal John Lennon in this book.
He wasn't someone who caredabout peace and love.
He was just another corruptphony obsessed with wealth and
power.
Mark loves the word phony.

Remi (01:14:42):
It's kind of a silly word, so it's funny to hear someone
be so adamantly against.

Ashley (01:14:52):
He also started to believe the Beatles generation
was all a sham orchestrated byLennon to gain worldwide
notoriety.
He flashed back to the priorblasphemous statements his
former idol made about heaven,now made worse by another quote
in which Lennon said he didn'tbelieve in God, just in him and
Yoko.
In summarizing his thoughtsabout Lennon at the time, mark

(01:15:14):
had this to say I rememberthinking that there was a
successful man who had the worldon a chain and there I was not
even a link on that chain.
He used his music to mislead ageneration of people who
desperately needed to believe inlove and a world at war that
desperately needed to believe inpeace.
He told us to imagine nopossessions, and there he was

(01:15:36):
with millions of dollars andyachts.
He had all these things and Iwas in such turmoil.
Shortly before he found the JohnLennon book, mark also
rediscovered the Catcher in theRye, a novel one of his former
church friends introduced him towhen he was 18.
Mark became more enmeshed withthe novel as the weeks passed.
Once his hatred of John Lennonre-emerged, he convinced himself

(01:16:00):
he would actually become HoldenCaulfield if he killed the
musician.
Only then would he find hismeaning and purpose and become
whole, I think the biggest thingthat drew him to Holden
Caulfield, which, it sounds like, is why other people have
connected with this character aswell.
It was because of this HoldenCaulfield like being in this
transitional stage in life beinga teenager but having the

(01:16:24):
responsibilities of an adult,not knowing how to handle it and
viewing the adult world ascorrupt and something that
should be avoided.

Remi (01:16:32):
And then quote unquote phony and how old was Chapman
here?

Ashley (01:16:36):
25.

Remi (01:16:38):
And still experiencing teenage angst from the sounds of
it.

Ashley (01:16:43):
He never figured out who he was or where he fit in.

Remi (01:16:47):
I think at that age a lot of people are still trying to
figure out where they fit in inlife, what they're going to do,
who they're going to become, andhis story is not that unusual.
There's a lot of people thathaven't figured things out, but
I don't know.
It's very strange to sympathizewith this teenage rebel
character when you're a decadeolder.

Ashley (01:17:08):
I agree.
I think that the lack ofidentity and uncertainty about
his future is certainly notanything that is unheard of or
an isolated incident.
I also think Mark has someclear characteristics of
personality disorders here thatimpact a lot of his choices and

(01:17:29):
just ways of viewing andinteracting with the world.

Remi (01:17:33):
But his story is not an uncommon one.
He traveled the world trying tofind himself.
He became like a hippie for abit.
He got into religion for a bit.
He's worked a lot of jobs thatkind of end up going nowhere and
not really supporting himself.
And it's not an uncommon storythat his life is telling right

(01:17:53):
now, besides the little people,of course.

Ashley (01:17:56):
Per Mark.
Once he decided to kill JohnLennon, there was no turning
back.
On October 23rd 1980, he quithis janitorial job at a luxury
apartment complex and signed outfor the last time, but not
under the name Mark DavidChapman.
This time he signed out as JohnLennon.
He then spent the next weekmaking elaborate assassination

(01:18:18):
plans.
He tried to enlist the help ofhis little people to help iron
out the details, but theyrefused.
One by one they rose from theircongressional seats and left
him for the last time.

Remi (01:18:29):
So even the little people were against him doing this.
They were like too far, dude,You're on your own.

Ashley (01:18:35):
That's exactly what he described their reaction being
what the fuck?

Remi (01:18:39):
man Like your people are even telling you this is an
awful idea and he's still goingwith it.
Those are the voices in hishead telling him bad idea.

Ashley (01:18:48):
Yeah, exactly.
Instead of being discouraged,he just carried on alone.
By night, he stayed uplistening to Beatles records,
speeding them up or slowing themdown, while injecting his own
lyrics.

Remi (01:19:00):
Didn't they used to have some sort of theory about like
playing the Beatles recordsbackwards and secret messages or
something like that?
Now that you mention and secretmessages or something like that
?

Ashley (01:19:10):
Now that you mention it, I do remember hearing that, so
maybe that's why he was doingthis.

Remi (01:19:14):
Searching for hidden messages within, playing it
backwards or slowing it down.

Ashley (01:19:19):
He also said there were times he stripped naked and
summoned the devil asking for anopportunity to kill John Lennon
on his upcoming trip to NewYork.
This claim was supported byGloria's recollection of at
least once waking up in themiddle of the night and hearing
her husband from the next roommuttering to himself in a
zombie-like tone.
Quote I want, you must die.

(01:19:41):
That phony bastard must die,says the catcher in the rye.
The catcher in the rye iscoming for you.
Don't believe in John Lennon,that goddamn phony fool.
He doesn't even realize thatsoon he's going to be dead.

Remi (01:19:55):
Gloria was shrugging off a lot of very bizarre behavior
from her husband.

Ashley (01:20:01):
She really was, and it gets worse and, remarkably, she
never even considered leavinghim.

Remi (01:20:07):
Didn't you say they are still together to this day.

Ashley (01:20:10):
Yeah.

Remi (01:20:11):
Wow, that is a very, very loyal woman.

Ashley (01:20:14):
On October 27th 1980, gloria witnessed a drastic
improvement in her husband'smood.
With all his travel plansfinalized, he went out to buy a
gun, claiming he was a securityguard and needed it for
protection.
He went out to buy a gunclaiming he was a security guard
and needed it for protection.
On the gun permit applicationhe ticked the no box on the

(01:20:35):
question about a history ofpsychiatric hospitalization.
He also bought a new outfit forthe trip a Russian-style
brimless hat, suit and long peacoat.
I'm kind of disappointed he'snot wearing the hat.
In the movie he is wearing thepea coat, but I didn't see the
hat.

Remi (01:20:48):
He never is wearing a hat in the movie.
He is wearing the picot, but Ididn't see the hat.
He never is wearing a hat inthe film and I am disappointed
as well.

Ashley (01:20:55):
Do you have a photo of the hat by chance?
Yes, here's what Google tellsme.
One of these hats look like.
We've seen these.

Remi (01:20:59):
Yeah, it's a warm hat.

Ashley (01:21:01):
I'm assuming they didn't want to put it on to just have
anything take away from JaredLeto's face.

Remi (01:21:07):
It was still cold in New York at the time.
I'm sure he would have liked ahat.

Ashley (01:21:11):
The last preparations involved buying two more copies
of the Catcher in the Rye, onethat he gave to Gloria and
signed holding Caulfield.

Remi (01:21:18):
So he brought a copy with him.

Ashley (01:21:20):
On this first trip.
He boarded his flight at 3.30on October 29th 1980.
Although he had a permit tocarry, it was illegal to bring a
handgun into New York.
To avoid unnecessary risks, hedecided to wait to purchase ammo
once there.
From October 30th to November4th, mark spent all afternoon

(01:21:41):
standing outside the Dakotapraying to catch a sight of John
Lennon.
He introduced himself to thedoorman and fellow fans as a
tourist from Hawaii who lovedthe Beatles and Lennon since
childhood.
Per all accounts he waspersistent but also friendly and
personable.
At night he went to the theaterwith random women he met
sightseeing, also treating themto expensive dinners and

(01:22:03):
carriage rides through CentralPark.
Despite being given thedoorman's rehearsed answers
about not knowing if Lennon wasin town.
Mark tried to buy bullets onNovember 4th but was told he
couldn't get them in the stateunless he was licensed and
bonded.
Moments later he booked aflight to Atlanta and called his
old friend Dana Reeves, asheriff's deputy in the county,

(01:22:26):
and asked to be picked up at theairport the next day.
Mark stayed with Reeves forfour days.
The day before his returnflight to New York he asked
Reeves to take him targetshooting in the woods for
practice.
Afterwards he told his friendhe brought a gun with him to New
York, since he would becarrying around a lot of cash
and was worried about beingrobbed.
He asked for a few extrabullets, but turned down the

(01:22:48):
standard rounds, insteadrequesting something with some
quote real stopping power.
Just in case, he eagerlyaccepted five hollow point
bullets designed to explode uponimpact.
They're like the most lethaltype of bullets Basically when
they hit their target instead ofsticking, they like shatter.

Remi (01:23:08):
I've seen YouTube video demonstrations of this.
It's like an exploding bulletin your body.

Ashley (01:23:15):
Mark touched down in New York on November 8th and
resumed his post outside theDakota.
But he started to have doubtsas the days continued to pass
without any sighting of histarget.
Plus, he was running out ofmoney thanks to his late night
spending.
On November 11th he calledGloria to say he was coming home
.
He told her all about how hebought a gun in Hawaii, went to

(01:23:37):
Georgia to get bullets andplanned to kill John Lennon.
But their paths didn't crossand his love for her saved him
and he wasn't gonna go throughwith it anymore.
Gloria didn't tell anyone aboutthis call, nor did she report
him when he showed her the gunand bullets after he got home
that night.

Remi (01:23:54):
What the fuck, Gloria?
I mean, she's doing nothing atall and doesn't tell anyone.

Ashley (01:24:01):
She didn't tell anyone.
I don't know if she didn'tthink he was serious, but I
don't know how you couldn'tthink he was serious.
He planned this trip and toldher she was not allowed to come.

Remi (01:24:12):
And she's walked in on him or heard him just talking to
nobody on repeated occasions,you'd have to realize that
something is seriously wrongwith your husband and maybe it's
time to get some professionalintervention here.

Ashley (01:24:27):
I agree, Even if she was worried about him getting in
potential legal trouble which,by the way, Mark had no prior
legal interactions.
He had like one arrest as ateen for like vagrancy, but that
was when he was like 14.

Remi (01:24:41):
This wouldn't be considered attempted murder or
anything.
Right, he just waited there.
Is that the same category?

Ashley (01:24:49):
Well, that's what I was going to say, even if she is
afraid of him getting in troublefor, I don't know, bringing a
gun into New York which wasillegal or whatever.
At the very least it is clearthat this guy needs to be
psychiatrically hospitalized forhomicidal plans and intent to
carry out this plan and hadtaken steps to do it.

Remi (01:25:10):
And having visual hallucinations and a lot of
reasons.

Ashley (01:25:14):
For the rest of the month, mark made numerous
threatening phone calls.
He called in a fake hotel bombthreat and started to harass
people he thought were rude tohim in the past.
For example, he repeatedlycalled a TV repairman and a
former apartment manager,threatening to kill them.
Not even innocent people werespared from his rage.
He even called a doctor heworked with at the hospital

(01:25:36):
warning him he was going to diefor no other reason than he just
didn't like how the guy looked.
He also repeatedly called agrocery store payphone that he
could see from his window andwhen a pedestrian picked up he
told them he was watching themand going to follow them home to
kill them.
These calls continued until hisreturn trip to New York on

(01:25:57):
December 6th 1980.
He took a taxi straight to theDakota where he met two female
superfans, jude Stein and JerryMaul.

Remi (01:26:07):
I do want to say you told me this before the episode.
I had no idea Jude was a realperson.
I thought Jude was completelymade up for the film.
I mean, what are the odds?
Her name is Jude.

Ashley (01:26:18):
I am assuming her parents must have been Beatles
superfans and that's how she gotso involved.

Remi (01:26:25):
Jude might have been a more common name back in the day
.
It is short for Judy, which Ifound out pretty recently
actually, so she may have beennamed Judy and just going by,
jude.

Ashley (01:26:36):
During the day's small talk, one of them suggested he
find a record store and get acopy of Lennon's recently
released album Double Fantasy,since it would be the perfect
thing for the musician to signif Mark got lucky.
Now I do want to say because mypart covered Mark Chapman's
whole life I skipped over a lotof the little things that were

(01:26:57):
described in the moviethroughout the day.
Most of it like 90%, was veryaccurate.
So they did invite him out to amovie.
He said no, come out to dinner.
And actually it sounds likethey did go back, but he had
already left.
He was staying at this dingyhotel on that first night, heard
a interaction between two gaypeople, considered shooting them

(01:27:22):
and instead went to that fancyhotel that night.
So all of that happened.
Mark was back outside the Dakotaby 9am the next day.
So this is December 7th.
He was recognized by thedoorman from a month earlier,
but he kept getting the sameroutine line about not knowing
if Lennon was in town.
He stood outside all dayholding that album before he

(01:27:44):
decided to find a bookstore tobuy a new copy of the Catcher in
the Rye, since he's tossed hislast one after his first failed
mission.
He couldn't find the book atthe store.
But he did find anotherchildhood favorite, the Wizard
of Oz, and it's described aseither, like you said, a
postcard In the book.
It was like a mini poster, so Iassume it probably was a

(01:28:06):
postcard.
So he bought that mini poster.
So I assume it probably was apostcard, so he bought that.
While on the checkout line helaid eyes on the January 1981
issue of Playboy featuringLennon and Yoko's first in-depth
interview in five years.
While studying the magazineover dinner, he thought about an
encounter Holden Caulfield hadwith a sex worker in a New York
City hotel.

(01:28:26):
He returned to his room andcalled an escort service from
the Yellow Pages, requestingsomeone from a different country
who wouldn't talk.

Remi (01:28:34):
He also requested that she be from another country in the
film.

Ashley (01:28:38):
For the next three hours .
He basically just laid in bedwith the woman and offered to
massage her back.
He called his wife for thefirst time since he left Hawaii
once she left around three inthe morning.
After a brief call, he openedhis Bible to the gospel
according to John.
Next to the word John he wroteLennon.
So it read the gospel accordingto John Lennon.

Remi (01:29:01):
He does this in the film too.

Ashley (01:29:03):
Mark woke up early on December 8th and arranged his
most precious possessions in asemicircle on top of the hotel's
dresser.
Included were his passport, aTodd Rundgren tape, the Bible
open to the gospel according toJohn Lennon, a letter from his
former YMCA supervisor and twophotos of him laughing with
Vietnamese children.

(01:29:24):
The Wizard of Oz postcard wasplaced in the center.
He put the loaded gun in hispocket, covered by.
It's described as a piece ofcardboard.
I've also seen it described asa notebook and I've also seen it
described that he put thecatcher in the rye book over it,
but that doesn't make sensebecause he didn't have it yet.

Remi (01:29:42):
In the film.
It's like the back of a notepad.
You know how there's a piece ofcardboard in the back of one.
It was a small notepad and heripped the cardboard off the
back of it and used that tocover the weapon.
So you can see the bulge in hispocket.

Ashley (01:29:57):
Yeah, okay, that makes sense because it was cardboard
and I was thinking where do youget cardboard?
But if he ripped it off from anotepad, that back is, I guess,
technically cardboard.
That back is, I guess,technically cardboard.
He also grabbed the DoubleFantasy album and went to a
bookstore again in search of theCatcher in the Rye and this
time he found one.
On the inside cover he wrotethis is my statement and signed

(01:30:17):
it.
Holden Caulfield Mark arrivedat the Dakota around 930 in the
morning.
After awaiting a while, hestarted reading the Catcher in
the Rye for what I'm sure wasthe millionth time.
He was so engrossed in the bookthat the doorman had to tell
him that John Lennon just walkedby after a taxi dropped him off
.
Jude showed up at the Dakotashortly after.
The two spent the daychit-chatting and had lunch

(01:30:39):
together.
By mid-afternoon Jude startedtalking to a woman who was with
a small boy, sean Lennon.

Remi (01:30:46):
This is so eerie that this part is true.

Ashley (01:30:51):
Well, this is really weird too.
He shook Mark's hand and toldhim that he was a beautiful boy.
Quoting Lennon's recentlyreleased song, he wrote about
his only son with Yoko.
Mark turned down Jude's dinneroffer to wait around for Lennon
just a little bit longer, turneddown Jude's dinner offer to
wait around for Lennon just alittle bit longer, and in the
book it is described that hebegged her to not go to dinner

(01:31:13):
and stay waiting.
But she's like I'm hungry.
She lives in New York.
She actually had met JohnLennon many times before.
She claimed that he actuallylike knew her by first name
because of how often she hungaround trying to get a glimpse
of him.
Sometime between 6 and 6 30, agroup of people exited the

(01:31:33):
Dakota and got into an awaitinglimo.
Chapman turned to see Yoko andJohn descending the steps.
John stopped to sign a fewautographs, including Mark's
album.
After giving the album back, heasked if that was all he wanted
.
A dumbfounded Mark could onlyutter thanks, john.
While all this was happening, aphotographer who Mark verbally

(01:31:54):
accosted earlier in the day,captured everything.
This is that photographer thathe freaked out about.
In the book it was described asit wasn't, because the
photographer was questioningwhether Mark was from Hawaii or
not.
The guy just asked Mark wherehe was staying and Mark flipped
out like why do you want to knowthat?

(01:32:14):
Why, why, why, why and wouldn'tlet it go.
And the guy's like I'm justmaking small talk, dude.

Remi (01:32:20):
In the film.
He asks him what part of Hawaiiare you from?
And Chapman asks him well, whydo you want to know that?
And the guy responds you justdon't sound or look Hawaiian.
I was wondering and it leads toan altercation.

Ashley (01:32:34):
Well before this photo and interaction with John Lennon
happened.
Mark had actually apologizedfor being short with the man
several times.
He felt bad about it, it seemed, and offered to buy one of the
pictures for 50 bucks.
The photographer promised hewould develop them overnight and
meet him back at the Dakota thenext morning.
Mark then asked if thephotographer knew when Lennon

(01:32:55):
would return.
He was told it could be twohours if the couple just went to
dinner or late into the eveningif they went to the recording
studio Around eight.
The photographer concluded themega couple were probably at the
studio and bid Mark farewell.
He seemed frantic when thephotographer turned to leave,
almost like he was trying to gethim to stay, and even asked

(01:33:18):
suppose you don't see him again.
Suppose something happens tohim and that him is John Lennon.

Remi (01:33:24):
He says the same thing in the film.

Ashley (01:33:26):
Meanwhile, Yoko and John were at Record Planet putting
the finishing touches on theirjoint album.
They returned home around 10.45.
In a 1992-2020 interview, Markexplains what happened next.

Mark David Chapman (01:33:41):
I had the gun in my pocket and I had a
copy of the Catcher in the Ryeover the gun.
So I'm sitting there, it's darkand this limo pulls up.
The driver didn't get out, butYoko opened the back door.
She didn't wait for John, shewalked past me and John got out

(01:34:11):
and he came up the pathway andhe looked at me also.
I heard this voice Not anaudible voice, but an inaudible
voice saying over and over do it, do it, do it, do it.
I guess that was me inside andI pulled the .38 revolver out of

(01:34:38):
my pocket, I went into what'scalled a combat stance, I pulled
the gun up, I used my left handto buttress the gun underneath
and I fired at his back fivesteady shots and at that point

(01:35:08):
for me the movie stopped.

Ashley (01:35:14):
All right, remy, you said that was the first time you
had heard Mark Chapman speak.
What do you think about?
Well, first, what do you thinkabout that video and how he
described this?

Remi (01:35:25):
Chilling.
It is very chilling the way hedescribes it in the video.
He seems to kind of stare offfor a little bit, like he's
remembering it in his head.
It's a haunting video.

Ashley (01:35:38):
It's very cold and, matter of fact, almost like
you're just reading ainstruction manual for how to
work your microwave.

Remi (01:35:46):
He is not getting emotional at all in the video.
But as far as Leto's voice, Igotta say I don't think he
nailed it.
I think his voice is a littlehigher pitched in the film than
it was in reality.
Maybe Leto just couldn't gethis voice down at that register
for whatever reason, but thecadence is very similar.

(01:36:07):
I think he had the cadence ofthe voice very much down.

Ashley (01:36:11):
Seems like they also both had that, almost like I
don't want to say a blank stare,but like there's just.
You can't tell how this guy isfeeling when he's talking about
anything.

Remi (01:36:23):
Leto did do a very good representation in that regard
and physically I do think theylook very similar, the film
version and in this interview.

Ashley (01:36:31):
Although mortally wounded, lennon sprinted inside
before he collapsed.
His final words to Yoko wereI'm shot.

Remi (01:36:39):
He made it inside the building.

Ashley (01:36:41):
Yeah, people are shocked that he was able to, but he ran
up the stairs and collapsed assoon as he was inside.

Remi (01:36:48):
They don't show his body in the film.
It shows him stumble and thencut back to Chapman during the
shots, and it never shows Yokoor John Lennon.
From that point forward youjust hear what happens.
So that could have been whathappened, and I just had assumed
he laid there and didn't get up.

Ashley (01:37:07):
I'm assuming it was the last bit of adrenaline this man
had left.
Immediately after the shooting,a doorman shook the gun out of
Mark's hand and kicked it away.
Mark then took off his coat andhat and paced while reading the
Catcher in the Rye.
Police arrived within minutes.
Mark threw his hands in the airand begged them not to shoot

(01:37:28):
him.
On the way to the station, hisonly words were reportedly quote
I'm the catcher in the rye.
Because his wounds were sosevere, john Lennon was rushed
to the hospital in the back ofanother squad car.
He was pronounced dead as soonas he arrived, at 1115.
The next day, yoko issued astatement saying there wouldn't

(01:37:48):
be a funeral.
Instead, she held a silentvigil and requested 10 minutes
of silence.
Around the world, hundreds ofmourners gathered in front of
the Dakota to light candles,sing songs and mourn the loss of
the rock and roll icon.

Remi (01:38:04):
This is shown at the end of the film footage of this.

Ashley (01:38:07):
A retired FBI agent was tasked with overseeing the
cremation and transporting theremains back to the Dakota where
they sat at the foot of Yoko'sbed for years to come.
Around 1 am, less than twohours after John Lennon was
pronounced dead, Mark signedthis written confession, and I
do want to note that, before Iget started here, this has been

(01:38:29):
cut down.
The full confession was like afull page and that was just a
lot, so I narrowed it down tothe essence of what his
confession was.
I have two parts of me.
The big part is very kind.
I did not want to kill anybodyand I really don't know why I
did it.
I fought against the small partfor a long time, but for a few

(01:38:51):
seconds the small part won.
I went back to Hawaii and triedto get rid of my small part,
but I couldn't.
I then returned to New York.
I'm sure the large part of meis holding Coalfield.
The small part of me must bethe devil.
The decision was made to takeMark directly to Bellevue
Hospital for a psychiatricevaluation.
Everyone hung around at thestation for a few hours, hoping

(01:39:13):
the media circus would die down.
While waiting, an officer askedMark why he did it, to which he
replied, he was given abulletproof vest and a coat to
cover his face, taken to thebasement and driven to the
hospital in an unmarked patrolcar.
In preparation for theirhigh-profile patient, Bellevue

(01:39:38):
had already started blacking outthe windows of the unit he
would be on as a precautionagainst potential snipers.
Mark's evaluating and treatingpsychiatrist at Bellevue saw no
signs of psychosis during hisfirst stint there.
When asked about the murder, hesaid he thought Lennon was a
phony and wanted to kill someoneto stop his mind and life.
His being Mark Chapman.
It sounds like he was onlydiagnosed with a form of

(01:39:59):
narcissistic personalitydisorder and deemed competent to
stand trial.
In the weeks and months thatfollowed, Mark was shuttled
between Rikers Island andBellevue for additional
psychological testing.
He was evaluated by more than adozen psychologists and
psychiatrists, including threefor the prosecution and six for
the defense.

(01:40:19):
The other three were ordered bythe court, so they were
supposed to be like not hired byeither side.
Almost all the defense expertsdiagnosed him with schizophrenia
, but the prosecution's expertsand the several court appointed
ones disagreed, insteadconceptualizing his delusions of
grandeur as a symptom of apersonality disorder.
It should be noted that Markdid seem to be more cooperative

(01:40:42):
with the prosecution's expertscompared to the ones hired by
his attorneys, possibly becausehe, Mark's attorney, announced
they were entering a plea of notguilty by reason of insanity in
January 1981.

Remi (01:40:56):
Despite Chapman not wanting to be viewed as crazy.

Ashley (01:41:00):
It sounds like the lawyer is the one that was
really really pushing him to dothis, and so he did initially
agree.
No, I say initially.
Mark was despondent during theweeks after his arrest.
In the book Let Me Take youDown by Jack Jones, the primary
source for this episode andchapter 27, he claimed he was
depressed because he didn'ttransform or disappear into the

(01:41:23):
catcher in the rye after theshooting.
One night, while watching amovie about Hitler, Mark had an
epiphany.
The epiphany resulted in Marknow believing the whole murder
was a way for him to promote thereading of the Ketra and the
Rai.

Remi (01:41:37):
So to be a publicist for the book?
That's what he thinks this allwas amounting to.
Yeah, it's assigned reading inclassrooms.

Ashley (01:41:47):
He threw himself into his new mission and talked about
the novel to anyone who wouldlisten.
He called a bookstore, urgingthem to buy as many copies as
they could get their hands on,since it was about to fly off
the shelves.
He asked guards and doctors tobring in copies for him to sign
and sent a letter to the NewYork Times urging people to read
it, since it was a quoteextraordinary book with many

(01:42:10):
answers.
He even brought a copy with himto every single court
appearance and proudly displayedit for all to see.

Remi (01:42:19):
Salinger was dead at this point I'm assuming right.

Ashley (01:42:23):
No, he was a recluse, though Apparently he was a
recluse for Apparently he was arecluse for a lot of his
adulthood years, but he was notdead.

Remi (01:42:30):
I would have been very curious to know his thoughts on
this unapproved publicity thatChapman is providing for him.

Ashley (01:42:37):
It's really interesting too if you Google Mark Chapman
and can find those like courtdrawings.
Almost all of them have himholding a copy of the Catcher in
the Rye In his cell.
He poured over it and made alist of 50 similarities between
him and Holden Caulfield, whichhe took as signs that the book

(01:42:57):
was a blueprint of his life.
However, I'm going to offer analternative theory here.
Mark actually set up all ofthese coincidences, whether he
did so consciously or not.
He chose to go to New York andretrace the sites Holden
Caulfield described.
He spent his money on randomwomen and called the escort,
just like Holden Caulfield did.

(01:43:18):
At one point he even approacheda police officer in Central
Park to ask where ducks went inthe winter, just like the
catcher in the rye did.
Although his plan was to usehis trial to promote the novel,
everything changed on June 22,1981.
In court, without telling hisattorneys his plans prior, mark
told the judge he wanted tochange his plea from not guilty

(01:43:40):
by reason of insanity to guilty.
His attorney objected andrequested a competency
evaluation to determine if Markwas competent to plead guilty
due to concerns that he didn'tfully comprehend the grave
consequences of doing so.
And I would have to agree tothe attorney.
Going into court without havingany sort of plea deal talks

(01:44:00):
with the prosecution and justtelling the judge you're
pleading guilty is veryconcerning and no one should do
that.
That is a bad, bad legal plan.
When the judge asked Mark whyhe wanted to change his plea, he
said God instructed him to doit.
This was apparently as good areason as any.
The judge denied the requestfor further evaluation, saying

(01:44:21):
Mark was making his decision ofhis own free will, and convicted
him right there ofsecond-degree murder, the most
serious charge in New York atthe time for killing someone who
wasn't law enforcement.
So you could only be chargedwith first degree if you killed
a cop.
That law has since been changed.
On August 24th 1981, mark wassentenced to 20 years to life in

(01:44:42):
prison.
When asked if he would like tomake a final statement, mark,
holding his beloved book, saidI've chosen this passage as my
final spoken words.
I keep picturing all theselittle kids playing the same
game in this big field of Ryanol.
Thousands of little kids andnobody's around Nobody big, I
mean, except me, and I'mstanding on the edge of some

(01:45:05):
crazy cliff.
What I have to do?
I have to catch everybody.
If they start to go over thecliff, I mean if they're running
and they don't look wherethey're going, I have to come
out from somewhere and catchthem.
That's all I do all day.
I just be the catcher in therye and all.

Remi (01:45:23):
Everything is so fucking literal with this guy.

Ashley (01:45:26):
If I was this guy's defense attorney and my client
read this weird passage fromthis book as their last words to
say during sentencing, I wouldbe like can we please have that
evaluation judge?
This is not normal behavior.

Remi (01:45:42):
I'd probably just toss my note cards in the air and put my
head on my desk at this point.

Ashley (01:45:47):
After sentencing, mark was first taken to Downstate
Correctional Facility, where helearned he would be serving his
time at Attica.
He completely panicked.
Not only was Attica the site ofthe bloodiest prison riot in US
history, but Lennon's firstpublic appearance after
immigrating to the States in1971 was a benefit concert for

(01:46:08):
the survivors and families ofthe prisoners killed during the
riot.
He even wrote a song about it,called Attica State.
What a waste of human power.

What a waste of human life.
Shoot the prisoners in thetower 43, for we don't mind.
Attica State, attica State.

Remi (01:46:53):
Oh my god, they are going to murder him.
I would be scared shitless.
It's a good song too.

Ashley (01:47:03):
Gloria quit her job and moved near the prison in upstate
New York.
She found a job at a departmentstore, rented a place with
members of her church and wasprepared to wait for Mark as
long as she needed to.
She visited him nearly everysingle day.
That is until Mark started torefuse her visit sometime in
1982.
In Jones' book, mark describes aprolonged period of alleged

(01:47:27):
demon possession.
He said he swapped out hislight bulbs for red ones, yelled
to the devil all day and night,wrote hymns to his demons,
refused to come out of his cellexcept for the occasional shower
, destroyed any prison propertyhe could get his hands on and
sometimes even stripped nakedand hung from the bars of his
cell.
In February 1982, he wasadmitted to a psychiatric unit

(01:47:49):
at a hospital following a 26-dayfast.
The New York Supreme Courtactually granted an order
allowing him to be force-fedwith tubes Per Mark.
He continued to be plagued bydemons until he performed a
series of solo prison exorcismsin 1985 with the help of an
outside minister who prayed atprearranged times.

(01:48:10):
All that sounds like a lot ofbullshit to me.

Remi (01:48:13):
I think Emily Rose would have a problem with that
statement.
It's not that easy to getexorcised.

Ashley (01:48:19):
Finally, around 1990, Mark started to improve.
During a 1992 interview withLarry King, he claimed God cured
him of his schizophrenia.

Mark David Chapman (01:48:31):
What Mark got you better?
What cured what you believe wasschizophrenia?
Well, not medication and notdoctors, but the Lord.
I've walked in the power of theLord now for a number of years.

Ashley (01:48:48):
In case anyone is curious, that's not how
schizophrenia gets cured.
Mark was held in a solitaryconfinement unit for violent and
at-risk prisoners, mostly inpart due to concerns that he
would be harmed by John Lennonfans and general population.

Remi (01:49:05):
Seems likely.

Ashley (01:49:07):
From 1989 to 1994, he only had three minor incidences
for delaying count or refusingto follow an order.
Essentially, if you don't getout of your bed and stand in
front of your cell door standwhere you can be clearly seen
during count you can get introuble, and they can do this
very, very early in the morning.
So it sounds like that'sprobably what all of the three

(01:49:29):
charges were for.

Remi (01:49:31):
Like Shawshank Redemption.

Ashley (01:49:33):
He also worked as a legal clerk and kitchen helper.
He refused press interviews forthe first six years of his
sentence.
The first interview was to areporter from People magazine,
which was published in 1987.
In 1992, he supplied tapedinterviews to Jack Jones, who he
met through a volunteer servicegroup.
These tapes were used to writethe biography.

(01:49:54):
That December, mark gave hisonly televised interviews he's
ever given to Barbara Waltersfor 2020 and Larry King for
Larry King Live, in to BarbaraWalters for 2020 and Larry King
for Larry King Live.
On the heels of his firstparole hearing in 2000, he sent
a series of audio tapes to acourt TV program called Mugshots
, at Jones's urging.

(01:50:15):
By law, mark is required to havea parole hearing every two
years since he completed hisminimum sentence of 20 years in
2000.
He has been denied 13 times.
Yoko Ono wrote letters forseveral of these hearings.
In them, she asked the paroleboard to keep him in prison for
the rest of his life, as she andher kids would never feel safe

(01:50:36):
if he was released.
During one of his earlierhearings, it came out that he
contemplated killing otherpublic figures.
It came out that hecontemplated killing other
public figures including DavidBowie, johnny Carson, elizabeth
Taylor, paul McCartney, jackieKennedy and Ronald Reagan In
2010,.
He said the only criteria forbeing on his kill list was being

(01:50:56):
famous, and he chose JohnLennon out of convenience.
While all these reasons arecertainly understandable for
denying someone parole, not allthe justifications the parole
board has identified for doingso are quite as sound.
In my opinion.
Most of the denials, especiallythose within the past 10 years,
cite the impact the crime hadon society and they believe

(01:51:19):
releasing him would quotedeprecate the seriousness of the
crime and serve to underminerespect for the law.
End quote.
I get that this explanationmight sound good on its face,
but the facts of the crime arenever going to change.
If you deny someone for parolebecause of the nature of a crime
that happened 40 years ago andif that's really your primary

(01:51:39):
and only justification for doingso, what is even the point of
having a hearing in the firstplace?
More egregiously, the board hasmore than once said that
releasing him would not be inhis own best interest, since
there are many people who wantto have him killed.
The board has also cited hislack of access to anger
management treatment, whichisn't totally fair, since he is

(01:52:01):
on a unit for at-risk prisoners.
For safety reasons, he isprohibited from participating in
programs open to the generalpopulation.
This includes anger managementand re-entry groups.
So he's kind of at a catch-22here.
He is being rated negativelybecause he's not doing these
programs, but he also can'tbecause of his status as needing

(01:52:23):
protection.
69-year-old Mark Chapman iscurrently incarcerated at
Greenhaven Correctional Facility.
He joined the family reunionprogram in 2014 and is allowed
regular conjugal visits with hiswife, gloria.
This allows them to spend 44hours alone together in an
on-grounds trailer equipped witha kitchen, bathroom and bedroom

(01:52:44):
.
He also gets occasional visitsfrom his sister clergy and a few
friends.
His next parole hearing isscheduled for August 2025.
What do you think, remy?
Do you think Mark Chapman willever be released?

Remi (01:52:57):
I was going to say no, but then I remembered that the guy
who tried to kill Ronald Reaganwas eventually paroled, I think
kind of recently, the pastcouple years or something like
that and if someone who canattempt to assassinate the
president can get out of jaileventually, I think Chapman may

(01:53:20):
see the outside of a prisonsomeday Whether or not it's this
year, I don't know, though, soI'm't know though, so I'm going
to disagree.

Ashley (01:53:26):
I don't think they're ever going to let Mark Chapman
out of prison.
I don't think the board wants todeal with the ramifications
that not only people who live inwhatever community Mark would
settle in would have, but theentire world would have.
The main difference between himand Hinckley our Hinckley was

(01:53:46):
found not guilty by reason ofinsanity, so he wasn't sentenced
to prison.
He was sentenced to apsychiatric hospital, which in
most cases people that do pursuethat plea end up serving more
time than they could for the maxsentence.
But even in Hinckley's case, itwas a couple years ago that I
think he was released and itinvolved a long gradual step

(01:54:08):
down process so he would beallowed to go on day passes and
then gradually overnight passeswith his parents.
And even when he was released Iactually don't know if he was
released right to home or if itwas to like a lower level
facility.
That's how it's done inOregonregon you would go to, not
the big state hospital but,like a resident, a locked

(01:54:30):
residential facility and then toa group home and then to your
own home.
And I'm fairly certain hinkleyis going to be followed by the
like mental health parole boardfor the rest of his life.

Remi (01:54:41):
So if he fucks up at all, he can go straight back to the
hospital I don't think he's likefree as a bird out in the world
doing whatever he wants.
I think he has a place where heis still kind of under watch,
but he's able to come and gomore freely.
But I didn't realize the wholeinsanity plea.
That does make a difference inboth cases.
So I think you're right on this.

(01:55:02):
Actually, I don't thinkChapman's ever going to get out.
So I think you're right on this.
Actually I don't thinkChapman's ever going to get out.

Ashley (01:55:05):
Mark Chapman isn't the only convict who inserted
himself into Yoko Ono's life.
In June 1983, it was announcedthat several of John Lennon's
diaries, including the one hekept up until his death, were
stolen from her home six monthsafter he was killed.
Also missing were anunpublished novel, poetry,
clothing, love letters betweenthe two and a slew of electronic

(01:55:28):
equipment.

Remi (01:55:29):
This poor woman six months later.
Fuck, that's terrible Losingyour husband and then getting
robbed of some of your preciouspossessions that are from him.

Ashley (01:55:40):
And it gets worse when you learn who took it.
The stolen possessions werekept secret until former
employee Fred Seaman, so Iwonder if that's the Freddy that
they mentioned in the movie.

Remi (01:55:54):
That seems very likely.

Ashley (01:55:56):
He pled guilty to second degree larceny in June 1983.
He was sentenced to five yearsof probation and ordered to
return all the stolen property,but the last diary John Lennon
wrote was still missing.
He was also required to returnand surrender the rights to the
374 pictures he took of theLennon family, refund the

(01:56:17):
profits he made from selling thestolen letters, which I think
is the most egregious, to takethese private writings from
these two and pay undiscloseddamages.
That last diary remainedmissing for over 30 years.
In 2017, lawyers sortingthrough the stock of a bankrupt
Berlin auction house stumbledupon 100 items believed to

(01:56:39):
belong to John Lennon and YokoOno.
In addition to the missingdiary, yoko personally
identified more items that wereagain stolen from her in 2006,
including a 1965 recording of aBeatles concert, more diaries,
several pairs of John Lennon'sglasses and a cigarette case.
Police learned a 59-year-oldman from Germany, only

(01:57:02):
identified as Erhan G,commissioned the auction house
to sell the items in 2014 andgot an upfront payment of about
$885,000.
More items were found in hiscar when he was arrested.
His accomplice was believed tobe a former employee of Yoko's,
but he was living in Turkey atthe time and couldn't be

(01:57:22):
extradited.
Thank God, it sounds like thatis the last time someone has
stolen something from poor YokoOno.
The murder of John Lennoninspired songs from superstar
musicians, including all threeof his former bandmates, queen,
elton John and the RollingStones.
His death also served as theinspiration for many books,

(01:57:44):
including at least two fromStephen King the Dark Half and
Misery, in which Annie Wilkesclaims to be the protagonist's
number one fan.
In the summer of 1992, king wasactually stalked by a John
Lennon fan who, noting thelookalike parents to Mark
Chapman, accused the author ofbeing the true killer.
He even went to King's hometownin Maine and hung posters

(01:58:07):
saying photos prove Stephen King, not Mark Chapman, getting John
Lennon's autograph.
No joke, folks.
In April 1984, constructionbegan on Strawberry Fields, a
2.5 acre section in Central Parkdedicated to John Lennon.
Some of his remains were evenscattered.
Where the memorial was cremated, the focal point is a circular

(01:58:29):
mosaic with Imagine written inthe middle.

Remi (01:58:32):
Which I have been to and seen several times.
It's very beautiful.

Ashley (01:58:35):
Yoko contributed over a million dollars for the
landscaping and upkeep.
Strawberry Fields was dedicatedto John Lennon on October 9th
1985, what would have been his45th birthday.
The memorial is often coveredwith flowers, candles and other
trinkets left by fans To thisday.
Tributes are held for JohnLennon all over the world,

(01:58:57):
including at Strawberry Fields.
They take place on October 9th,the date of his birth, and
December 8th, the date of hisdeath, and that is the true
story of Jarrett Schaefer'sChapter 27.

Remi (01:59:10):
A very accurate portrayal of those three days, but I do
really wish we had gotten thefull story.
Chapman's life is aninteresting life and I think
that there would have been verycreative ways you could portray
some of his mental illnesssymptoms on film, and I think it
is a shame that this filmlimits everything to just those

(01:59:33):
three days.

Ashley (01:59:34):
I think you could have even started with him at the
library finding that bookdialogue between I don't know
him and Gloria, or just evenvoiceover, if they wanted to be
lazy in his head, kind of buildup about how you know he never
really found a niche and eventhough he's married and loves

(01:59:55):
his wife, he hates his job andis just miserable.
But then you would have had allof his like real dissent down
into such rage against someonewho was nice to him.

Remi (02:00:07):
The movie leaves a lot of his motivations unclear and I
think hearing his life story youunderstand a little bit more of
this guy's mind frame and wherehe was at in life and his
discontent with everything thatI think would have been very
important and helpful to includein the film.

(02:00:27):
Again, we don't have to see hisentire childhood or anything
like that, but to see thedescent a little bit more and to
understand it would have beenhelpful.
I think.

Ashley (02:00:37):
Well, with that shall we get to our objection of the
week.

Remi (02:00:42):
Your Honor, I object.
And why is that, Mr reed?
Because it's devastating to mycase.

Ashley (02:00:47):
Overrule, good call all right, remy, why don't you kick
us off?

Remi (02:00:53):
and just a quick reminder to everyone.
Our objection of the week isnot the biggest change, it is
the most unnecessary,superfluous change made in the
film.
So mine, mine, for this week,for chapter 27,.
I have three, actually, and twoof them I believe I know why
the change was made, but I willsave those two anyway.

(02:01:13):
But they're not my officialpick.
My official pick will be thelast one.
The interview in the magazinein the film is, I believe, savoy
.
Fantasy Magazine and real life.
It was Playboy.
I think this was a rights thing.
I don't think Playboy wantedtheir magazine to be associated
with this film, which isunderstandable.

Ashley (02:01:32):
I had that too and I wrote in parentheses copyright
question mark.
So yeah, that's seems.
I would be really surprised ifthat was not the reason the name
was changed.

Remi (02:01:42):
And the other one I had was the Todd Rundgren tape that
was left on the desk before heleft to assassinate John Lennon.
It was not in the film.
Again, I assume they couldn'tget permission from Todd's
estate.
I don't know if he's alive ordead, but I assume, again, they

(02:02:03):
didn't want to be associatedwith this.
But my official selection forthe objection of the week is no
hat.
There was no hat.
He should have had a hat.
It was cold.
He didn't have to be wearing itduring the photo or key moments
, but it is very clearly stated.
He had a hat during certainpoints and in the film he did

(02:02:25):
not have a hat.
That is my objection.

Ashley (02:02:30):
That's a good one.
I was actually kind of worriedyou're going to take mine, but
you didn't.
I didn't write down the hatthing.

Remi (02:02:36):
I wrote it down and then crossed it off because I thought
he only had the hat on thefirst trip to New York.
But you did confirm a hat wasin his possession when he was
arrested so they excluded thehat.

Ashley (02:02:47):
There was somewhere in the book, too, where he like
commented on his hat.
I think it was either maybewhen he almost met John Lennon
or when he did.
But he's like John Lennon'sgoing to think I'm stupid
because I'm wearing this stupidhat.
So the hat was definitely there.
Mine is that he asked a cabdriver about the ducks instead

(02:03:08):
of a cop in Central Park.

Remi (02:03:10):
I almost picked that one as well.
I didn't write that one down,but I noticed that one and I
actually thought you were goingto pick that one, so I purposely
did not choose it.
But mine is the hat, but thatmight just be because I think
it's a great hat and shouldn'thave been excluded from the film
.

Ashley (02:03:26):
I assume they did it, because it would be really
distracting if Jared Leto wasjust walking around with this
hat and he just looks sodifferent already.
I assume it was for looks, doyou not think that's played a
role?

Remi (02:03:40):
I think that probably did play a role.
I think they wanted you to beable to see his full face and
everything, so I'll give it toyou.
I'm going to give it to youunder protest, because I think
that hat deserved somerepresentation on film.
But yes, the duck question isthe winner for this week and
with that let's get into ourverdict.

Announcer (02:04:03):
At the conclusion of each episode, our hosts will
deliver a verdict based on thefilm's accuracy.
If the film is an honestportrayal of the events, then it
will earn a not guilty verdict.
If the adaptation is mostlyfactual but creative liberties
were taken for the sake ofentertainment, the film will be
declared a mistrial.
But if the film ultimatelystrays too far from the truth,

(02:04:25):
then it will be condemned asguilty and sentenced to a life
behind bars.

Remi (02:04:31):
Ashley, I started last time, so how about you start
things this time?
What is your verdict?

Ashley (02:04:38):
I think this is really, really easy and it might be one
of the ones that there wasreally not a question in my mind
when you were five minutes intodescribing what was happening
in this movie.
It is obviously not guilty.
It sounds like these three daysthat were covered in this film
are almost word for word exactlywhat happened, what he did, who

(02:05:02):
he talked to, even specificthings he said.
Really, the only thing that Ireally stuck out was that helter
skelter, charles Manson rant.
I didn't see anything about himgoing off like that in the book
.
It doesn't mean it wasn'trunning through his head or
something like that, but otherthan that it is a very accurate

(02:05:23):
representation of this guy'slast three days.

Remi (02:05:27):
The court is in agreement this week.
Not guilty on this side as well.
As far as covering those threedays.
It's incredibly detailed andincredibly accurate, and I do
think Leto's performance isamazing, even though I don't
think he quite had the voicedown.
He is physically transformedinto Chapman and I think several

(02:05:48):
things in the film from when Ioriginally saw them and I had
assumed were made up includingJude turned out to also be
factual.
So I think this is a no-brainer.
This gets a not guilty from meas well.
We are in agreement, ashleyBravo to us.
Not guilty from me as well.

Ashley (02:06:05):
We are in agreement, Ashley.
Bravo to us and bravo forchapter 27,.
Despite your 18% Rotten.

Remi (02:06:19):
Tomatoes warning.
You are our first not guiltyverdict of season four.
First not guilty of season four.
It's been a rough season so far, I guess, so a little bit of
repercussions for not making anymoney and only having 18% on
Rotten Tomatoes.
You get Not Guilty from ourpodcast, but beyond chapter 27,.

(02:06:40):
Let's look at chapter 28.
What's happening two weeks fromnow, ashley?

Ashley (02:06:45):
We are going to be covering a movie that probably a
lot of people have not seen orheard of, which is a travesty.
Remy and I stumbled upon it notthat long ago and it is so, so,
so good, and by our favoriteproduction company again, a24.
It is called Zola.
What's Zola about?
Remy again.

Remi (02:07:04):
A24.
It is called Zola.
What's Zola about?
Remy Zola is based on a seriesof tweets from a woman on
Twitter and we saw this film,not realizing that it was based
on a true story.
I think we kind of figured itout as we went along and mainly
because it was an A24 film andit is a crazy wild ride.

(02:07:26):
It is the story of this onewoman who is a exotic dancer and
her weekend with this otherwoman who is a little trashy,
and the insanity that occurs anda lot of illegal things happen,
and it is going to be a veryinteresting episode that I'm

(02:07:46):
looking forward to talking about.
So, yeah, two weeks from now,zola.

Ashley (02:07:50):
And stick around at the very end for a little snippet of
what you're in for with Zola.

Remi (02:07:56):
And until then, thank you for joining us.
Please tell a friend if youenjoyed what you heard, and
court is adjourned what youheard, and court is adjourned.

Hey, last month I went dancing at this cute spot
in Florida where my roommate'sgirl made like five G's a night.
We just met yesterday andyou're already trying to take ho
trips together.
Be ready by two.
You want to hear a story abouthow me and this bitch fell out.
It's kind of long but it's fullof suspense you want to go
somewhere with me.

(02:08:34):
Dear Heavenly Father, we cometo you thanking you today for
all the bounties that youbestowed upon us.
Jesus, this brings you to Tampa.
We making some shmoney Makingthat shmoney.
Facts.

Ashley (02:08:54):
Hey, damn cute.
From here on out, watch everymove this bitch make.

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