Chicago

Episode Transcript
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Remi (00:08):
Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, the show where we
take a look at some of yourfavorite movies and the true
crime stories that inspired them.
I'm Remy.
I spent over a decade workingin the film and television
industry in Los Angeles,California.

Ashley (00:21):
And I'm Ashley.
I'm a clinical psychologist andforensic evaluator in the state
of Oregon.

Remi (00:28):
Chicago, chicago.
Welcome to season four everyone.
I'm sorry for that little bitof musical interlude which
probably did not go with ourtheme music, but welcome to
season four everyone.
We made it.
How are?
You doing today, ashley, butwelcome to season four.

Ashley (00:45):
Everyone we made it.
How are you doing today, ashley?
I'm doing great.
I am stoked to be back torecording and I am even more
stoked to be talking about thismovie.

Remi (00:54):
Chicago.
I don't know what gave you thatimpression that that was the
movie that we were covering thisweek.
But yes, we are covering thefilm Chicago.
The Academy Award winning ReneeZellweger, catherine Zeta-Jones
, rob Marshall directed film.

Ashley (01:09):
Richard Gere, Queen Latifah.

Remi (01:11):
John C Reilly.
It's got a all-star cast forsure, and I know you said you
were a big fan of this film atthe beginning, ashley, but had
you seen this in theaters whenit came out, or did you see it
on DVD for the first time?
What's your history withChicago?

Ashley (01:29):
I don't remember if I saw it in theaters.
I'm assuming I did.
I have seen this movie a lot.
I know a lot of the songs byheart.

Remi (01:38):
Yes, you do.

Ashley (01:40):
I have been singing them for the past few weeks.
I also owned this DVD at onepoint.
I'm not sure if it's one of the30.
I still have tucked awaysomewhere, but it would not
surprise me in the least if itwas, and I also have seen this
musical in York.
I think it was off-Broadway,though, about 10 years or so ago

(02:00):
.

Remi (02:01):
And I actually do not have a lot of experience with the
musical Chicago, but I did go tofilm school at Columbia College
, chicago, for a couple of years, which is the same school that
Kanye West went to and droppedout of and wrote the Dropout
graduation album.

Ashley (02:19):
I did not know that.

Remi (02:21):
I know it's pretty random.
That's kind of the school'sclaim to fame.

Ashley (02:24):
When did you find out that this was actually inspired
by and based on a true story?

Remi (02:30):
Oh my god, I don't even know.
I think it was pretty late.
Actually, I had no idea thiswas based on real life events at
all.
I thought it was just a typicalmusical, you know, like Wicked
Phantom of the Opera, somethingthat was created for a big show,
but I really didn't ever thinkthat it was based on a true

(02:50):
story.

Ashley (02:51):
I remember when I found out, it was when we developed
the idea of this podcast and wewere Googling around and we saw
Chicago on one of the lists.
Chicago on one of the lists andI immediately bought the book
and have been vying to do thismovie every season since season
one, which actually same withthe next episode we're going to

(03:12):
be doing, which we'll talk aboutat the end.
So stay tuned for that.
So I'm very excited.
The time has finally come.
I got you to watch a musical.
I know you're not a big fan,but I did it, folks, I did it.

Remi (03:26):
Yes, let's talk about musicals just for a second
before we dive into this.
I am not a huge musical fan.
I enjoy the theatrics of it.
I think Broadway is veryentertaining but on screen I am
just not really a fan, unlessit's like a cartoon or a Disney

(03:46):
movie or something like that.
That makes sense to me, butjust the idea of people being in
a real life scenario and thenstopping to break out into song
has always seemed weird anddistracting to me.
However, there are films thatmanage to figure out a way to do
it more organically, and I dothink that this is one of the

(04:08):
films that does that.
Another film that I feel doesit well is Dancer in the Dark
starring Bjork, and it is a veryserious film.
It is not shot well, thecinematography is terrible, but
it is dealing with very serioussubject matter.
Yet there are musicalinterludes that are happening in
the lead character's mind, sothey are an escape from her

(04:32):
depressing reality.
So whenever she's in the realworld, everything is very dark
and dreary, but she will escapeinto this fantasy world full of
color and dancing and music, asa way to cope with the horrible
stuff that is occurring in herlife, and I didn't realize it at
the time, but that is verysimilar to what Chicago does.

Ashley (04:53):
I would also argue Rent.

Remi (04:55):
Rent is another one.
Again, not a huge fan of Rent.
I have seen the movie way backin the day.
But yeah, musicals are just notmy thing.
I think it's weird thatHollywood loves musicals so much
and they keep making musicalsnowadays, but hiding the fact
that they are musicals becausethey want to make musicals but

(05:17):
they know most people don't likemusicals so they'll try to
disguise that for some reason.
The Joker movie that just cameout.
There was a Mean Girls moviethat came out this year.
There's been a lot of movieswhere they're like downplaying
the fact that it is a musicalbecause they're almost
embarrassed of it.
And my sentiment is if you'reembarrassed of making it, why

(05:37):
are you making it?
If it's a musical, justadvertise that it's a musical
and be honest.

Ashley (05:43):
I would say one musical we saw recently, which spoiler
alert or, I guess, disclaimer wehaven't seen Wicked, which I
think is one Remy is going todirect me to watch on my own,
probably because they split itinto two parts for whatever
reason, I don't know yet.

Remi (06:01):
They took a two and a half hour play and split it into two
two and a half hour movies.

Ashley (06:08):
But Amelia Perez.
We liked that one on Netflix.

Remi (06:11):
Amelia Perez was brilliant and I really did enjoy Amelia
Perez.
If you can do a unique spin onit, I'm open to it.
It's just the stereotypicalmusicals where you know you're
going about your business andthere's a song literally about
what you are doing, like I'mcleaning my shorts and then I'm
gonna walk to school, like thatcould just be a conversation.

Ashley (06:33):
So I take it you did not enjoy Les Mis, which is 98%
song.

Remi (06:39):
I don't think I have actually even sat through that
movie all the way through.
I watched the Anne Hathawayperformance specifically because
she won the award and I heardit was amazing.
But yeah, it's just not mything.
And I watched a few scenes fromit and I don't know, I couldn't
get into it.
It's weird that they are justsinging.

Ashley (06:59):
Well, enough talk about musicals in general, let's get
into this musical, the firstmusical and, honestly, probably
the only musical we will evercover on this show the Great
Chicago.

Remi (07:13):
Surprisingly, there are not a lot of true crime musicals
out there in the world, so thisis a rarity for us.
And I will say up front I wentinto this movie with my arms
crossed like it's a musical.
I am not looking forward toseeing this.
I think that I had seen it oneother time in its entirety with
you because you forced me to,but even then I really wasn't

(07:35):
paying attention, in all honesty.

Ashley (07:37):
I even offered this to be one of the switcheroos.
I was like I will gladly watchand research this movie and you
can do the research behind thetrue story.
Do it, let's do it.
And you said, no, this is mine.

Remi (07:51):
This is an interesting challenge for me because much of
this story is revealed throughsong, so when watching the film
you really have to pay attentionto the lyrics and everything,
and it is a very unique twist onthe genre and I will say I did
enjoy it in the end, afterwatching it all the way through,
being forced to pay attentionfrom beginning to end.

(08:13):
I did enjoy Chicago.

Ashley (08:16):
So maybe you will watch Wicked with me after all.

Remi (08:18):
I most likely will, because I'm almost positive it's
going to be nominated for aBest Picture or something like
that, and we always end upwatching those movies anyway.
But let's get into the movieitself Chicago.

Verdict (08:32):
Chicago.

Remi (08:54):
Chicago is a 2002 musical film based on a 1975 stage
musical which itself wasinspired by the 1926 play by the
same name.
Chicago marks the directorialdebut of Rob Marshall, who also
choreographed the film from anadapted screenplay written by
Billy Condon, with music by JohnKander and lyrics by Fred Ebb.
The cast includes ReneeZellweger, catherine Zeta-Jones,

(09:17):
richard Gere, queen Latifah andeverybody's favorite
stepbrother, john C Reilly.
The musical Chicago is based ona play by
reporter-turned-playwrightMaureen Dallas Watkins, who drew
inspiration from the 1924trials of accused murderers
Beulah Annan and Belva Gairtner,which Watkins had originally

(09:40):
covered for an assignment whileworking at the Chicago Tribune.
Originally covered for anassignment while working at the
Chicago Tribune.
The 2002 film is based on the1975 Broadway musical Chicago,
which ran for 936 performancesand featured music from John
Kander with lyrics by Fred Ebband a book by Bob Fosse.
I didn't know what a book was,but it's like the screenplay,

(10:05):
basically for a musical.
Lyricist.
Fred Ebb explained that themusical's vaudevillian style was
intentional to mirror thestory's characters, which were
all loosely modeled afterreal-life entertainers such as
Helen Morgan, texas Gunnan, tedLewis and Sophie Tucker, all of
which I have never heard ofbefore but were famous in

(10:25):
vaudevillian times.
Many of composer John Kander'ssongs were additionally inspired
by vaudeville legends likeEddie Cantor and Burt Williams,
further emphasizing the show'svintage style.
The original productionpremiered at the 46th Street
Theatre on June 3rd 1975,premiered at the 46th Street
Theater on June 3, 1975, earningnominations for Best Musical,

(10:47):
best Book and Best Score at the1976 Tony Awards.
Despite its now iconic status,the original Broadway run
received mixed reviews andwasn't an immediate hit with
audiences.
Bob Fosse, who directed andchoreographed the original 1975

(11:08):
Broadway production and had wonan Oscar for his work on Cabaret
back in 1972, had initiallyplanned on directing his own
film adaptation of Chicago, withstars like Goldie Hawn, liza
Minnelli and Frank Sinatra evenannounced for the leading roles.

Ashley (11:23):
I could see that Me too.

Remi (11:25):
I think that actually would have come together pretty
well.
Tragically, Fosse's untimelydeath in 1987 ultimately put an
end to that particular project.
While Fosse's vision nevertruly materialized, his
signature jazz choreography wasstill a prominent influence on
the 2002 film, which also honorsFosse in the closing credits.

Ashley (11:48):
Oh, that's a nice little addition.

Remi (11:54):
Agreed.
I like it when they do thingslike that in film during the
credits.
It's just an acknowledgement ofthis person may not have been
involved, but they still helpinspire creatively what you see.

Ashley (12:03):
Kind of like paved the way.

Remi (12:04):
Exactly Fast forward to 1996, where, unlike the mixed
reception of the original, theminimalist Broadway revival of
Chicago received widespreadcritical acclaim and became a
massive runaway success.
With over 10,000 performancesto date, the revival currently
holds the record for thelongest-running musical revival,

(12:27):
the longest-running Americanmusical on Broadway and the
second-longest-running Broadwayshow of all time.

Ashley (12:35):
I want to note that it's still going on today.
So it's been 27, 28 years.
Do you know what the number onelongest show is on Broadway?

Remi (12:45):
I should have included that, but it's not in my notes.
I don't know.

Ashley (12:49):
Phantom of the Opera.

Remi (12:50):
That would have been my guess.
If I were to just do a shot inthe dark, Phantom of the Opera
would have been my guess.

Ashley (12:58):
But it is the longest running show still going.

Remi (13:01):
And Phantom of the Opera is one of the few Broadway shows
that I actually did see live onBroadway.
It was the first Broadway showI ever saw and it was okay.
The chandelier thing was cool.
Chicago also set the record formost wins for a revival at the
Tony Awards, having won sixtotal, but were eventually

(13:22):
dethroned by South Pacific,which claimed seven awards in
2008.
I don't know anything aboutSouth Pacific, do you?

Ashley (13:30):
I don't.
I've never heard of it.
Chicago also won a Grammy forBest Theater Musical Album.

Remi (13:36):
Chicago is highly awarded and decorated, it is
astonishingly successful.
The 1996 smash hit revival ofthe 1975 musical was one of the
very few instances of a Broadwayrevival that was far more
successful than the original.
This revival didn't justreignite interest in the stage

(13:59):
production, it also renewedmomentum for a long-awaited film
adaptation which had previouslybeen abandoned after Fosse's
passing.
Director Rob Marshall had seena performance of the original
1975 production when he was just14 years old and recalled being
mesmerized by the show'sexuberant mix of glamour, humor,

(14:21):
sensuality and darkness.
Years later, Marshall was intalks with Miramax Films to
direct a screen adaptation ofthe Broadway hit Rent.
But when he arrived at themeeting, Marshall was far more
interested in pitching hisversion of Chicago.

Ashley (14:39):
That's another really, really, really, really, really
good musical Tick Tick Boomabout Jonathan Larson, the guy
who wrote Rent, starring AndrewGarfield.

Remi (14:48):
Agree 100% on that.
Andrew Garfield's performancein that is astounding.

Ashley (14:54):
I'm pretty sure we both cried at the end.
That movie is so so, so, sogood.
If you haven't seen it, afteryou're done listening to this,
watch Chicago and then watchTick Tick Boom.

Remi (15:04):
Highest of praise for Tick , tick, boom.
It is really, really abrilliant film and one of the
few musicals I can say is twothumbs up for me.
Back to Chicago.
Marshall, in his Meeting withMiramax Films, introduced the
concept of framing the Chicagomusical as unfolding in Roxy
Hart's mind, which immediatelycaptured Miramax's attention,

(15:28):
which resulted in the studioshifting their focus to Chicago
and putting Rent on hold until2005.
As far as casting goes,sometimes the most unforgettable
auditions happen to occur whenyou're not even trying.
When Rob Marshall met longtimefriend Renee Zellweger for
dinner at the Four Seasons onenight, zellweger playfully asked

(15:50):
Marshall to teach her one ofthe songs from the new musical
he was working on.
Marshall chose Nowadays and thetwo began singing together
quietly at the table.
As Zellweger gradually grewmore and more confident, she
started singing a little bitlouder, completely unaware that
this impromptu performance wasactually her audition for the

(16:11):
role of Roxy Hart.
By the end of the evening,marshall knew that she was
perfect for the role and she hadlanded the part without ever
even realizing it.
Some people have all the luck,I guess.
Some people have all the luck,I guess.
Despite having no formalsinging background, zellweger
embraced the challenge and laterdescribed working on Chicago as
an incredibly liberatingexperience.

(16:32):
Charlize Theron had originallysecured the role of Roxy Hart,
while Nicholas Heitner wasattached to direct, but when
Heitner stepped down, theron hadto re-audition and ultimately
lost the part to Zellweger.

Ashley (16:49):
I know who you would have picked.

Remi (16:51):
Now, personally speaking, I sort of think that Renee
Zellweger is just okay in thisrole and someone else could have
really knocked it out of thepark if given the chance.
But maybe that's just becauseI've never really been the
biggest Renee Zellweger fan.
I mean, she's fine, but arethere any other actresses that
you think could have possiblyplayed this character?

Ashley (17:14):
This might be too early and I don't know if she can sing
, but Beulah, who Roxy Hart isbased on, is actually a redhead,
so if she can sing I don't knowif she can she probably can't
Amy Adams but this might havebeen way too early.

Remi (17:32):
I could see that, but yeah , that could have been a little
early.
I cheated and I looked upactresses who were around in
2002 when this came out.

Ashley (17:41):
The other person I think of is Nicole Kidman, but that's
only because of Moulin Rouge,and I don't think she would have
done as good of a job as shedid in Moulin Rouge.

Remi (17:51):
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Brittany
Murphy as my pick for this.
Now, she had very, very mildsinging experience from what I
saw, but so did Renee Zellweger,and I think Brittany Murphy
fits the character a little bitmore than Zellweger does.

(18:11):
I don't know, I think maybe I'mbeing harsh on Renee, but she
just doesn't really have it forme, and someone that seemed a
little bit more I don't knowdamaged and innocent and had
that aspect to her.
I think Brittany could havedone a really good job if, given
singing training and all ofthat sort of thing.

Ashley (18:33):
I could see that too, because the real Beulah was like
23, 24 when all of this washappening, and the character of
Velma was in her 30s, so she's alittle older.
So I think casting BrittanyMurphy, who would have been much
younger than Renee Zellweger atthe time, would have been more

(18:53):
of a starker contrast betweenwho these women were supposed to
be and represent in society.

Remi (19:00):
When it came to casting the role of Velma Kelly in
Chicago, several big names wereconsidered, including Toni
Collette, neve Campbell,angelina Jolie, madonna,
jennifer Lopez, julia Roberts,gwyneth Paltrow and Winona Ryder
.

Ashley (19:17):
I feel like, of all of those I like, catherine
Zeta-Jones the best.

Remi (19:21):
Hard agree on that.
Catherine Zeta-Jones is myfavorite part of this film.
She kills it.
She is beautiful, she isstunning, she nails every
performance.
I cannot picture anotheractress taking on the role of
Velma.
So, as I was just saying, inthe end it was Catherine
Zeta-Jones who landed the roleof Velma after producer Martin

(19:44):
Richards noticed her singingtalent at a family Christmas
party in Bermuda, where she andher husband Michael Douglas
lived.
Impressed by her performance ofHoliday Carols, richards
approached Jones about joiningthe film.
Initially, richards had her inmind for the part of Roxy Hart,
but Jones had her sights setfirmly on the character of Velma

(20:07):
Kelly.
Although she wasn'tparticularly familiar with the
original Broadway show, jonesknew one thing, and that was
Velma Kelly sang the iconic songAll that Jazz and insisted on
playing Velma because shespecifically wanted to sing that
song.
And she fucking kills it.

(20:28):
Rob Marshall initially wantedCatherine Zeta-Jones to wear her
naturally long hair in the film, but, as Jones would later
explain in an interview withPeople magazine, she
successfully lobbied for theiconic short bob hairstyle to
ensure that her face stayedvisible during the dance scenes,
leaving no room for anyone todoubt if she had actually been

(20:51):
performing all of thechoreography herself.

Ashley (20:55):
And her long, luscious locks are just not 1920s jazz.

Remi (20:59):
And we were just watching a rehearsal performance of
Catherine Zeta-Jones for thefilm Chicago and she has her
normal hair in the performance,but it just isn't the same.
I think the bob really capturesthat era perfectly.

Ashley (21:15):
Did she really cut it or was it a wig?

Remi (21:17):
It was a wig.
One challenge that arose fromJones' casting was that she
became pregnant by the time offilming.
As her baby bump began to show,the production team had to get
creative by utilizing a bodydouble for certain shots from
behind or framing Jones from thewaist up during other scenes.
The role of Chicago attorney,billy Flynn, had quite the

(21:41):
casting journey as well.
Believe it or not, robMarshall's original choice was
none other than the king of pophimself, michael Jackson, but
executive producer and horriblehuman being Harvey Weinstein
objected to the idea, arguingthat Jackson's star power would
overshadow Catherine Zeta-Jonesand Renee Zellweger in the film,

(22:03):
and Michael Jackson would alsobe a terrible, terrible choice
for this role.

Ashley (22:11):
It would have been incredibly distracting.

Remi (22:15):
Would you buy Michael Jackson as a Chicago attorney?

Ashley (22:19):
No, A Chicago scumbag attorney, no.

Remi (22:23):
I can't envision him just playing a normal human being
walking the streets, let alone aChicago attorney.
Supposedly, Hugh Jackman wasoffered the role at some point,
but turned it down because hefelt that he was too young for
the part, and I would agree 2002, he was probably mid-twenties.

Ashley (22:42):
That I could see, but I also do like Richard Gere, so it
worked out in the end.

Remi (22:47):
Meanwhile, John Travolta was approached multiple times,
but repeatedly declined,something he would later admit
to deeply regretting.

Ashley (22:57):
I could also see John Travolta.
Grease is another iconicmusical.

Remi (23:03):
Which is, I think, the reason why Rob Marshall was
pursuing him for this role, andI do think that John Travolta
could have nailed this part.
Funnily enough, this marks thefourth time Travolta passed on a
role that ended up going toRichard Gere, following American
Gigolo in 1980, days of Heavenin 1978, and An Officer and a

(23:26):
Gentleman in 1982.
So a big part of Richard Gere'searly career was based on John
Travolta turning down roles, itseems.
As for Gere, he dove headfirstinto the role and took tap
dancing lessons for three monthsleading up to his big tap solo,
which ended up taking onlyabout a half a day to actually

(23:48):
film.
Kathy Bates was director RobMarshall's first choice to play
matron Mama Morton, but herscheduling conflicts with 2002's
About Schmidt meant that shehad to pass on the role, which
would eventually go to QueenLatifah.

Ashley (24:04):
I really like Queen Latifah in this, but I would
have really, really, reallyliked to see a version of this
with Kathy Bates.

Remi (24:13):
All of the director's first choices beyond Michael
Jackson seemed like they couldhave still worked, in my opinion
.
When Queen Latifah was askedwhy she thought she got the part
of Mama Morton, she confidentlyresponded I'm black, I'm sexy
and I pack a mean wallop of avoice.

Ashley (24:33):
She's not wrong.

Remi (24:34):
Impressively.
In 2003, both Queen Latifah andKathy Bates earned Oscar
nominations in the BestSupporting Actress category for
their performances in Chicagoand About Schmidt.
John C Reilly was the only castmember of Chicago who is
actually from Chicago and grewup performing in musicals from

(24:55):
the age of eight and continuedall throughout high school.
While he had done plenty oftheater throughout his career,
re Riley hadn't been in amusical since he was a teenager.
Taking on the role of Amos Hartwas Riley's way of reconnecting
with an important art form thathe described as a direct way to
communicate with the audience.

(25:15):
Reflecting on the experienceRiley shared with Rob Marshall,
I came into this thinking itwould be a laugh, but I walked
away thinking it was thedefining moment of my entire
career.
After the film's release, rileyhad a memorable encounter in
New York City with Joel Grey,the original Amos Hart from the

(25:35):
Broadway production.
Grey took his hand, lookedRiley in the eyes and said you
were incredible, you owned thatpart, you made it your own and
it was a joy to watch.
Congratulations.

Ashley (25:50):
That's so sweet.

Remi (25:52):
In the interview I saw, Riley said it's probably the
best acting compliment he hasever received in his entire life
.

Ashley (26:01):
I feel like every time you think, especially if you
haven't seen this movie and youhear like John C Reilly is in it
he has his own song you'reprobably thinking this is going
to be terrible.
But he's really good in thismovie and he's not a bad singer.

Remi (26:23):
He is an amazing actor.
He was in all of the PaulThomas Anderson movies, like
Boogie Nights and Magnolia, andhe segued over into comedies
with Will Ferrell and TalladegaNights and kind of found his
niche.
But he is an amazing actor andevery time he's brought into one
of these films I think hereally proves how good he is.
He's hilarious, but he also isreally talented as a dramatic

(26:44):
actor and singer.
Riley's passion for clowningplayed a role in his portrayal
of Amos, as he designed his ownclown makeup for the song Mr
Cellophane, and it was his ideato show Amos applying the makeup
to add another layer ofvulnerability to his character.
Surprisingly, Chicago kept itsuse of CGI to a bare minimum and

(27:06):
the only digital effects in theentire film were used to erase
the harnesses worn by some ofthe reporters during the.
We both reached for the gunscene.
And finally, Chicago was citedas one of the movies responsible
for influencing the MPAA'sdecision to include smoking as a
factor in their.

(27:26):
That's hilarious.
I just had to throw that inthere because we were talking
about that a little while back.
And, yeah, we never reallyunderstood why cigarettes became
a deciding factor in filmratings, but this is one of the

(27:48):
movies that kicked that off.
Enough pre-production.
Are you ready to dive into thesinging and dancing world of
Chicago?

Ashley (27:59):
Yes, take me back to the 1920s.
Five, six, seven, eight, takeme back to the 1920s.

Remi (28:08):
Five, six, seven, eight.
Our story begins in a swingingjazz club during the roaring 20s
as Velma Kelly, played by thestrikingly beautiful Catherine
Zeta-Jones, enters through aback alley door.
With effortless confidence, shestrides past the other
performers backstage and headsstraight to her dressing room.
Once inside, she pulls out atiny pistol from her handbag,

(28:31):
quickly hides it in a dresserdrawer and thoroughly washes her
hands.
Moments later, she slips into aflapper dress and makes her way
to the stage, ready to dazzlethe crowd with her electrifying
performance of All that Jazz.

Verdict (29:03):
I move my knees and know my stocking's down and all
that jazz.

Remi (29:07):
Though Velma is singing solo this evening, she is still
introduced as the Kelly sisters,despite the notable absence of
Velma's sibling on stage.
Watching, awestruck from theaudience, is Roxy Hart, played
by Renee Zellweger, who imaginesherself on stage performing the
musical number in Velma's Place.

(29:28):
Roxy is abruptly snapped out ofher fantasy by her sleazy
boyfriend, fred Casely, playedby Dominic West, who signals
that it's time for theirdeparture.
Fred and Roxy stumble back toRoxy's place exceedingly drunk
and exceptionally frisky, as thetwo get down to some hardcore

(29:48):
hanky-panky within moments ofwalking through the door.
Back at the jazz club, velma isjust wrapping up her musical
number as the police arrive toarrest her for the murder of her
husband and sister.
Returning to post-coital Fredand Roxy, it soon becomes
apparent that Fred is not reallyRoxy's husband, but rather a

(30:09):
furniture salesman whom she hasbeen having an affair with for
the past month.
Though Roxy dreams of becominga star someday and had hoped
that Fred would introduce her toone of his connections down at
the jazz club, fred repeatedlybrushes off her aspirations as
he gets dressed and prepares toleave Undeterred.

(30:30):
Roxy persists until Fredfinally snaps and delivers a
harsh dose of reality to ourgirl Roxy talent with skinny
legs.

Verdict (30:41):
I'm just a furniture salesman, yeah, but you've got
connections.
You know the guy down at theclub.
There is no guy.
Yeah, that night it was thefirst time I set foot in that
joint.
I was collecting on a bet fromthe trombone player, so you
never told anyone about me.
Sugar, you were hot stuff.
I would have said anything toget a piece of that.
And now, now we had some laughs.

(31:05):
Let's just leave it at that.
Fred, you can't do this to me.

Remi (31:12):
And you can't Distraught.
And in tears, roxy removes apistol from the top drawer of
her dresser and shoots Fred deadon his way out the door.
Later that evening, the policehave arrived at the scene of the
crime and we learn that Roxy'shusband, amos Hart, played by

(31:34):
John C Reilly, has confessed tothe murder.
According to Amos' claim, fredhad been a burglar whom he shot
after catching him in the act ofpreparing to assault Roxy as
she lay sleeping in bed.
As the police continue theirline of questioning, it slowly
begins to dawn on Amos that theso-called burglar had actually

(31:56):
been a man who sold Amos andRoxy their furniture a month
prior.
As the pieces continue fallinginto place, amos comes to the
crushing realization that Roxyhad been fooling around on him
all along.
Feeling utterly betrayed, amoschanges his story and admits
that Roxy had convinced him togo along with the burglar ruse

(32:18):
after promising it would lead toa lighter sentence for him than
it would for her.
Is that the case, ashley?
Is that something that wouldhave happened?
Like would they go easier on aman for murder than a woman?

Ashley (32:32):
In 1920s, chicago 100%.
No, I have a whole part abouthow female murderers, or at
least those accused of murder,were portrayed by the media and
the astonishingly high acquittalrate.

Remi (32:50):
Well, a taste of things to come.
And to make matters worse, itis also revealed that Fred had
been a married man with fivechildren of his own.
Despite Roxy's protest, she ispromptly arrested for the murder
of Fred Casely, carrying withit a potential sentence of death
by hanging.
Roxy is taken to the CookCounty Jail where she's

(33:13):
interrogated, booked and meetsthe formidable head guard,
matron, mama Morton, playedtough yet shrewd authority
figure with a savvy businesssense, who keeps order
throughout the cell block byutilizing a system of mutually
beneficial exchanges between herand the other prisoners.

(33:34):
Momma Morton proceeds to escortRoxy to her new home, away from
home, in a section of the jailknown as Murderer's Row, which,
coincidentally, is also whereVelma Kelly is being held.
After crying herself to sleep,confined between the cold, dark
walls of her jail cell, roxy isawoken in the dead of night to

(33:55):
the melodic rhythm of the cellblock tango.

Verdict (34:01):
Six Squish Uh-uh.

Ashley (34:09):
Cicero Lipschitz.

Remi (34:13):
During the Cell Block Tango, we are introduced to six
other female prisoners beingheld on murderer's row Liz or
Pop, who shot her husband twicein the head with a shotgun for
chewing bubblegum.
Annie or Six, who poisoned herhusband with arsenic after

(34:36):
finding out that he was really aMormon with six wives.
June or Squish, who stabbed herhusband ten times with a knife
after he accused her of cheatingon him with the milkman.
Hanyak or uh-uh, an innocentHungarian woman wrongfully
accused of decapitating herhusband.
Velma or Cicero, who killed herhusband and sister in a
blackout rage after catchingthem having an affair together.

(34:58):
And last but certainly notleast, mona or Lipsch, who
murdered her philanderingartistic lover and is being
played by the ghetto superstarherself, maya, who I just saw in
concert last year and she wasphenomenal.
Side note here during thecellblock tango each woman

(35:19):
reenacts her crime using a redsilk bandana to represent the
bloodshed that occurred duringeach murder.
But when the Hungarian womantells her story, she holds up a
white bandana instead of a redone as a symbol of her innocence
.
Sometime later, roxy overhearsa private conversation between

(35:40):
Velma and Mama Morton, where shelearns that Mama Morton is
using her connections to reduceVelma's sentence and, in return,
mama Morton will act as Velma'smanager once she is released.
Due to her newfound infamy,velma has become a hot commodity
across Chicago, with clubs allover town eager to book her and

(36:01):
willing to pay top dollar.

Ashley (36:03):
Upon release.

Remi (36:04):
They are betting on her release.
Everyone seems to think thatVelma is going to get off for
this pretty easily.
No one seems to be anticipatingher conviction.

Ashley (36:15):
Keep this in mind.
This will tie in to what I hadmentioned earlier about how
female murders were viewed.

Remi (36:22):
Moments later, roxy is called in for her own meeting
with Mama Morton, who offers toconnect Roxy with a high-profile
hotshot attorney named BillyFlynn, under the condition that
Roxy pay Mama Morton $100 upfront for the favor.
We are next introduced to thecharismatic attorney Billy Flynn

(36:43):
, who comes with an undefeatedtrack record in court and is
being played by Richard Gere.
Through song, we learn thatBilly is also representing Velma
and proclaiming her innocenceby offering a reward for any
tips leading to thequote-unquote real killers of
Velma's husband and sister.
During the scene we also meet agossiping reporter named Mary

(37:07):
Sunshine, played by ChristineBaranski.
Side note here a notabledifference in the portrayal of
Mary Sunshine in the stageversion of Chicago is that Mary
Sunshine is traditionally playedby a male actor in drag,
appearing as a large, matronlywoman singing in falsetto.
The audience only discoversMary's true identity in the

(37:30):
second act when the wig anddress are dramatically removed,
revealing the truth For the film.
Christine Baranski took on therole and later expressed her
regret in an interview withGenre Magazine about taking a
part that historically had beenperformed by drag artists.
To honor the spirit of the role, baranski decided to reimagine

(37:51):
Mary Sunshine as a gay woman,saying that was my little secret
.
I was one of those fabulous1920s lesbians.
Billy agrees to represent Roxyfor the hefty fee of $5,000,
which is far beyond herfinancial means.

Ashley (38:08):
And keep in mind people.
This is supposed to be 1920, sothat's a lot of money.

Remi (38:13):
Desperate, amos schedules a meeting with Billy to discuss
his wife's legal fees, but onlymanages to scrape together
$2,000 of the full amount owed.
Surprisingly, billy stillaccepts the case at a reduced
payment and eagerly beginsplotting out Roxy's defense
strategy.
Step one of Billy's master planis to manipulate the public's

(38:36):
sympathy towards Roxy byensuring that Billy's version of
Roxy's story is spread acrossevery newspaper in town,
branding her as the sweetestlittle jazz killer ever to hit
Chicago.
Billy also organizes an auctionof Roxy's personal belongings
to the highest bidder in orderto raise the additional funds

(38:57):
needed for her defense.
During his next meeting withRoxy, billy outlines all the
details of how he intends onspinning Roxy's story into a
much more positive light.
By fabricating such details asher being raised in a nunnery,
billy and Roxy continuerehearsing her backstory for

(39:18):
several days until Billy finallyfeels that she is ready to face
the press and assures Roxy that, with his help, an acquittal is
all but guaranteed.
Meanwhile, velma has beengrowing increasingly jealous of
Billy shifting the majority ofhis attention over to Roxy's
case, causing an increasedintention between the two women.

(39:40):
Not long after, with Billy byher side, roxy makes her first
public statement to the press.
Do you think a strategy likethat would work nowadays.
Liquor and jazz was the reasonthat someone murdered somebody.

Ashley (40:04):
I think there might be a little apprehension about that
defense nowadays.

Remi (40:09):
Billie continues by painting a sympathetic picture
of Roxy's background by claimingthat she came from a wealthy
Mississippi family thattragically passed away when she
was a young girl.

Ashley (40:20):
Especially with social media.
Any lies like this would berevealed if it was a high
profile case.

Remi (40:31):
Any lies like this would be revealed if it was a high
profile case, revealed soquickly, and it would look so
bad.
The amount of lying that thisattorney does is pretty
staggering, I must say, and,like you said today, all of this
would be easily disproven AfterRoxy's parents passing.
This, of course, led to Roxybeing raised in a convent before
eventually moving to Chicago in1920, where she met Amos, fell

(40:53):
in love and they eloped.
According to Billy's version,fred had been an ex-boyfriend of
Roxy's, who became enraged whenshe ended their affair out of
guilt for her husband.
The story culminates in Fredgrabbing a pistol from Roxy's
dresser, leading to a strugglethat ended with the accidental

(41:14):
death of Fred.
Predictably, the press eats upBilly's story like ants on an
everything bagel, just as he hadplanned, causing Roxy to become
an overnight press darling, andfamous to boot.

Ashley (41:27):
Ants on an everything bagel.

Remi (41:30):
I thought it was good at the time, Reading it out loud
now probably not the bestmetaphor, but I'm sticking to it
.

Ashley (41:38):
It's clever, it's clever .
I'll give you that.

Remi (41:41):
The auction of Roxy's personal items for her defense
fund is additionally a rousingsuccess.
As a result, roxy's newfoundfame continues to blossom as she
also starts receiving bouquetsof beautiful flowers from her
adoring fans, which she proudlydisplays alongside her growing

(42:01):
collection of press clippingsadorning her jail cell walls.
With her increasing ego, broughton by the potential likelihood
of her acquittal, roxy starts tofantasize about life after the
trial, envisioning herselfachieving the highest levels of
superstardom as a celebratedstage performer.

(42:22):
With Roxy hogging all theattention, velma becomes
desperate to regain thespotlight, so pitches the idea
of teaming up for a double actwith Roxy once Billy gets them
both released.
They are both so confident thatthey are getting off for these
murder charges.
Unfortunately for Velma, roxydismisses her idea and is

(42:45):
unwilling to share any of hernewfound popularity.
Little does Roxy realize thatat that very same moment, a
wealthy pineapple heiress namedKitty Baxter, played by Lucy Liu
, has just caught her husband inbed with two other women and,
in a fit of rage, murders allthree of them.

(43:06):
Naturally, billy Flynn is thefirst person Kitty calls to
handle her defense, divertinghis focus away from Roxy and her
trial.
But Roxy still has a few tricksup her sleeves and has just the
idea to swing everybody'sattention back in her direction.

Verdict (43:31):
Mr Flynn, someone open this door please.
Oh my God, roxy, what is it,sir?
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no,don't worry about me.
Oh, I only hope the fall didn'thurt the baby.

Remi (43:50):
I never noticed how many people Kitty Baxter kicks in the
balls on her way to her jailcell before watching that clip
with you just now.

Ashley (43:58):
She's a little firecracker.

Remi (43:59):
She's feisty, yeah, works like a charm.
And after a doctor examinesRoxy and agrees to testify that
she is indeed pregnant, themedia frenzy only intensifies.
This leaves reportersspeculating about the true
identity of the baby's father,Blissfully unaware of Roxy's

(44:23):
indifference towards him.
Amidst the press chaos, roxy'shusband, amos, assumes that the
child is his and is gulliblyoverjoyed to hear the good news.
Amos then sings a song calledMr Cellophane, where he slowly
realizes that he and Roxy hadn'tbeen intimate in the three

(44:44):
months leading up to her arrest.
Infuriated by his wife'sdeception, amos vows to divorce
Roxy for fathering another man'sbaby.
And I just want to say here Isaw an interview with John C
Reilly where they asked whichcharacter he has played was the
dumbest, and he said withoutquestion, amos Hart is the

(45:06):
dumbest character he has everplayed.
With all the fame going toRoxy's head, she is steadily
transformed into a full-blowndiva, resulting in Billy Flynn
resigning as her attorney.
Around this same time, caitlinHelinski, aka Honyak or Uh-Uh
from the Cell Black Tango, losesher final appeal and is

(45:29):
sentenced to death by hanging.
The following week, caitlinHolinsky would go down in
history as the first woman toever be executed in Chicago.
Not long after Roxy goescrawling back to Billy, humbled
and desperate for his help.
After taking Roxy back, billyskillfully tap dances his way

(45:51):
through the entire trial using abit of the old razzle dazzle if
I'm an act with lots of slashin it and the reaction will be

(46:12):
passionate.
On a personal side note here,this song got me thinking that
if opening and closingstatements were performed
musically during a trial, thenjury duty would be a lot more
entertaining.
Then jury duty would be a lotmore entertaining For our next
act.
Roxy Hart takes the stand totestify in her defense,

(46:32):
recounting the events of January14th, from the night Fred
Casely was murdered.
Roxy claims that she acted inself-defense after ending their
relationship to focus on raisingher unborn child with Amos, who
is now being presented as thebaby's father.
In turn, Roxy's defense is metwith rave reviews by both the

(46:56):
courtroom and the media, earningglowing praise for her and her
defense.
The drama intensifies whenVelma Kelly is called as a
surprise rebuttal witness, armedwith Roxy's diary which is
entered into evidence.
Velma theatrically readsexcerpts from Roxy's log, with
the goal of painting Roxy in anunflattering light.

(47:18):
But Billy Flynn is still ableto masterfully dismantle Velma's
testimony by proving that thediary is a forgery.

Ashley (47:27):
Wait, so they called Velma to testify against Roxy.
Kind of like a jailhouse snitchtype situation here.

Remi (47:34):
Yes, Okay, Personal side note here.
I've never really been a bigRichard Gere fan, probably
because I hate the movie PrettyWoman, but I'm really enjoying
his performance here.
I also think that he was greatin the 1996 film Primal Fear,
which I guess just means that Ireally like seeing Richard Gere

(47:54):
playing a sleazy attorney forsome reason.

Ashley (47:57):
And in movies where he isn't alongside Julia Roberts.

Remi (48:01):
Roxy is ultimately found not guilty and set free.
Found not guilty and set free,just as the press shifts their
attention over to the latestsensational female murderer to
hit the Chicago news scene.
Roxy also learns that theentire series of events with
Velma and the Diary had beencarefully orchestrated by Billy

(48:23):
all along.
Oh, and there was also reallyno pregnancy either, but I'm
pretty sure that everyone butAmos had managed to figure that
out by now.
The film ends with Velma beingreleased from prison months
later and her and Roxy teamingup for a dazzling duet
performance of Nowadays beingperformed live on stage to a

(48:44):
sold-out audience.

Verdict (48:46):
And that's good, isn't it grand, isn't it great?
Isn't it swell?
Isn't it fun, isn't it?
But nothing stays.

Remi (49:04):
And that's Chicago.
What do you think, Ashley?

Ashley (49:09):
I just am taken back to the last time I saw this movie,
which has been a long time ago,and I just love it.
I love Chicago.

Remi (49:20):
And I do have to admit it was a pretty enjoyable
experience overall.
I had all of the big songsstuck in my head afterwards.
All that jazz was in my headfor days.
Mr Cellophane was in my headfor days Razzle, dazzle,
cellblock, tango I was basicallyhumming these and singing these

(49:42):
out loud while makingsandwiches for the past week or
so.
They are super catchy andthey're good songs and I like
the fact that they approachedthis film in a way that I said
to you but you said that was notwhat the movie was doing, but
that the musical numbers are inRoxy's head I like that.

(50:05):
That doesn't shatter the reality.
What shatters the illusion ofthe film and the reality that's
been created for me is when theystop what they're doing and
start to sing and dance.
This movie doesn't do that.
This movie will show themusical numbers, but it will be
in contrast to something that isgoing on in the real world, to

(50:28):
accompany it in a way, and Ithink it's really effective and
I think that, even though I'mnot a Renee Zellweger fan, I
think she did great.
I think all of the actors didgreat.
Catherine Zeta-Jonesspecifically.
This is like probably her bestperformance in my opinion.
She gave it her all.
It shows, and normally I'msomeone who can very easily

(50:52):
think of who else could haveplayed this part, but with this
role, velma Kelly, catherineZeta-Jones, they are one in the
same.
She fucking rocked it.
Are you ready to hear about therelease of Chicago?
And I'll give you a hint it didpretty well.

Ashley (51:09):
It did do pretty well.
I do know that.

Remi (51:12):
Chicago currently has an approval rating of 86% on Rotten
Tomatoes, with a criticalconsensus that reads A rousing
and energetic adaptation of theBroadway musical Chicago
succeeds on the level of purespectacle, but provides a
surprising level of depth andhumor as well.

Ashley (51:33):
That is a really in-depth critics consensus.

Remi (51:37):
It depends on the amount of people who reviewed the movie
, and I assume this had a lot ofreviews, because it is a Best
Picture winner.
It is a Best Picture winner.
The film went on to gross over$306 million at the Global Box
Office, which at the time wasthe highest grossing live action

(52:01):
musical of all time, beforethat record was utterly
obliterated by Mamma Mia in 2008, which earned just shy of $700
million worldwide.

Ashley (52:12):
It's just because of ABBA.

Remi (52:13):
There's no comparison on that.
I mean $700 million, my God.

Ashley (52:18):
But people love Mamma Mia.

Remi (52:21):
After watching this, I will take the music from Chicago
over Mamma Mia any day.
I'm not a big ABBA fan.
Maybe call me biased, but themusic in Chicago is very, very
catchy.

Ashley (52:33):
But no one from Chicago has won Eurovision.

Remi (52:36):
Chicago is also credited with ushering in a reemergence
of the musical film genre in the21st century, along with Moulin
Rouge and 8 Mile.

Ashley (52:48):
Was this before both of those?

Remi (52:50):
Moulin Rouge came out the year before and 8 Mile came out
the same year.

Ashley (52:55):
Moulin Rouge is good.
We watched that not too longago.
I think you fell asleep duringit, but I enjoy Moulin Rouge.

Remi (53:01):
I'm not as into Moulin Rouge.
It's a jukebox musical, whichmeans it's all songs from other
things, and I think if you'regoing to make a musical, write
your own songs for the musical.
Just my opinion.

Ashley (53:15):
Maggie agrees.

Remi (53:17):
The film additionally received 13 nominations at the
2003 Academy Awards, walkingaway with six statues, including
Best Picture and BestSupporting Actress, for
Catherine Zeta-Jones.
To date, chicago is one of 11other musicals to win the award

(53:37):
for Best Picture, which includethe Broadway Melody in 1929, the
Great Ziegfeld in 1936, goingmy Way in 1944, an American in
Paris in 1951, gigli in 1958,not the Ben Affleck version,
West Side Story in 1961, my FairLady in 1964, the Sound of

(54:00):
Music in 1965, oliver in 1968,and Amadeus in 1984.

Ashley (54:14):
in 1968, and Amadeus in 1984.
Okay, so a lot of them seem tobe in the 40 to 60s range.

Remi (54:18):
So musical had not won in got 30 years Since Amadeus.
So yeah, it had been quite sometime.
And, like I said earlier,chicago reignited interest in
the musical genre.
It was kind of dead by thispoint.
Growing up in the 90s I don'treally remember any musicals
outside of like the South Parkmusical.

Ashley (54:37):
Or Disney, which I don't really count.
I count those in a differentcategory of their own, but I do
remember after Chicago there wasjust a blow up of live action
musicals.

Remi (54:48):
I also have a bit of an inkling that a little film
called Wicked just might bejoining those ranks in the not
too distant future.
But time will tell.
I'm rooting for Anora.

Ashley (55:01):
I don't think Wicked is going to win Best Picture, but
we haven't seen it yet, so whoknows?
But we did just watch Anorayesterday and it's my favorite
oh, it's tough to say that.
Or the Substance are myfavorite movie of this year.

Remi (55:14):
The Academy loves musicals , so I feel like Wicked will win
some stuff.
Maybe not Best Picture, thoughComparatively, only one horror
film has ever won Best Picture.
Can you guess what that was?

Ashley (55:29):
Silence of the Lambs.

Remi (55:30):
Yep, and that was all the way back in 1991.
And personally I would classifythat as more of a thriller than
a horror movie and I thinkHereditary really should have
been nominated for some awards afew years back but got snubbed
because it was a horror film.
For some awards a few yearsback, but got snubbed because it
was a horror film.

(55:50):
Surprisingly, Chicago did notwin an Oscar in the Best Song
category, which, I have to pointout, needs to be an original
song, so any of the songs thatappeared in the 1970s musical
would be ineligible for thisaward.
Can you guess what song wonthis award instead of Chicago?

Ashley (56:10):
Was Chicago nominated for a song?

Remi (56:12):
This may be a bit of a cheat, but Chicago was nominated
for the song I Move On, whichonly played during the closing
credits of the film.

Ashley (56:26):
Okay, so that's why it didn't win.
I have no clue what won, so I'mgoing to need a hint, because I
just can't think off the top ofmy head of what movies came out
in 2002.
Lose Yourself.

Remi (56:44):
Yes, Lose Yourself by Eminem won Best Song in 2002,
rightfully beating a song thatwas played during the closing
credits.

Ashley (56:55):
I do remember that he wrote Lose Yourself for 8 Mile,
and it was everywhere for solong.

Remi (57:02):
And he didn't even show up to the ceremony because he
thought what are the odds I'mgoing to win an Oscar.
But yeah, eminem is an AcademyAward winner, though the film's
director, rob Marshall, wouldnever reach the same heights as
he did with Chicago.
He has gone on to directseveral other major musicals

(57:24):
throughout his career.
Other major musicals throughouthis career, including Into the
Woods, mary Poppins Returns andDisney's live-action remake of
the Little Mermaid.

Ashley (57:34):
Oof Um.

Remi (57:35):
I have not seen Mary.

Ashley (57:36):
Poppins Returns.
I did not like Into the Woods,despite my obsession with Meryl
Streep, but we didn't mind theLittle Mermaid.

Remi (57:45):
It was fine.
That's the best I can say aboutit.
I love the original with all ofmy heart and soul.
I was raised on it.
It's my favorite Disney movie,so I don't think there was any
possible way that live actionversion could have satisfied me,
but he did what he could withit.
But yeah, I sort of feel thatChicago was his high point of

(58:09):
his career, which is surprisingbecause it was also his first
movie.
Kind of sucks when you start outon top, there's nowhere to go
but down.
But if you think that's bad,screenwriter Bill Condon would
later make the successfultransition into directing with
such films as the Twilight Saga,breaking Dawn, part 1 and 2,

(58:34):
and the 2017 live-action remakeof the Disney musical Beauty and
the Beast.
So they both found their way toa Disney musical remake
eventually.
That's where you go if you're amusical director, apparently.
Last but not least, in a DVDfeaturette, director Rob

(58:56):
Marshall was asked about a fantheory suggesting that the
ending, where Roxy and Velmaachieve massive fame and success
after their release from prison, had actually just been a
delusional fantasy of Roxy's.
In response, marshall simplysmiled and gave a subtle nod,

(59:17):
and that was Rob Marshall'sChicago.

Ashley (59:21):
He could have also said Google, the true story.

Remi (59:25):
There was no mention of the true story in any of the
research that I did for thisfilm.
This film is based on themusical and this is like a weird
telephone game of a story, of astory that got passed down.
That passed down, and I'mcurious what the first version
of that story was.

Ashley (59:44):
honestly, version of that story was honestly Well.
You mentioned it at the verybeginning that it was Maureen
Watkins who wrote this play,based on her reporting of two
women, and that's true.
But how much of that did sheincorporate into her play
Chicago and did it get muddiedalong the way?

Remi (01:00:02):
Well, that's what I'm here to find out, Ashley.
Why don't you tell me?

Ashley (01:00:25):
The end of World War I and the Great Migration, which
was the movement of AfricanAmericans from the deep south to
Chicago and other northerncities, transformed Chicago into
the jazz capital.

Remi (01:00:32):
Do you like jazz Ashley?

Ashley (01:00:34):
I appreciate it, but it's not something I go out of
my way to listen to.

Remi (01:00:39):
When I was in LA writing screenplays it was always good
to have some jazz on.
It's not distracting.

Ashley (01:00:45):
Modern life in Chicago was fast-paced Think smoky
nightclubs and cabarets filledwith flappers, bootlegged booze
and jazz music.
While many were drawn to thiseasygoing lifestyle, doctors
warned it caused quote severeinternal derangement and general
ill health.

Remi (01:01:04):
Wait jazz.

Ashley (01:01:06):
Yes, the jazz prohibition, alcohol party
lifestyle.

Remi (01:01:12):
That prohibition flapper era lifestyle yeah.

Ashley (01:01:17):
In response, school boards across the country put
the hammer down on their femaleteachers by issuing contracts
requiring them to be home by 8and disallowing skirts above the
ankle, bobbed haircuts andsmoking cigarettes.
Additionally, the number ofmurders perpetrated by women in
Chicago jumped over 400% from1880 to 1920.

(01:01:41):
This led people to speculatethat something about this new
Chicago was destroying thefeminine temperament, as
violence is obviously not anatural act for women.
102 women were tried formurdering their husbands during
this time, but only 16 wereconvicted.
At one point, the DA lost 35consecutive cases in a row

(01:02:05):
involving female killers, astreak that was broken in 1919
when a middle-aged Swedishimmigrant was found guilty.
Things got so bad that manypapers claimed it was just
impossible to convict a woman ofa violent crime in Chicago.
Those acquitted were alwaysyoung and pretty, while the
convicted were viewed asundesirables poor, ethnic or old

(01:02:27):
.
Whether it was emotions, boozeor something else entirely, the
women in Chicago seemed to havegone mad, but many were
considered savable.
There's a few explanations, orpossible explanations that I
thought of, for this trend ofthe young and pretty to be
acquitted of violent crime.

Remi (01:02:49):
I would assume sexism has a little bit of a role to play
in there, because people werelike how could a woman do such a
thing?

Ashley (01:02:53):
Well going off on that at this time.
So in the 20s, only men wereallowed to serve on juries in
Illinois, and many of them justcouldn't wrap their heads around
how a woman could beresponsible for killing someone
without a reasonable explanation.
Second, everyone was fascinatedwith Chicago's female killers,
an obsession news reporterscapitalized on.

(01:03:16):
Not only were the crimes andtrials of these women covered
extensively, but so were theiroutfits, demeanors and
day-to-day jail lives, sincereporters were essentially
allowed to interview the womenat their jail cells with little
to no restrictions, thereporters could basically come
into the jail, stand outside ofthese barred cells and just

(01:03:38):
conduct their interviews.
Also, a lot of high-profiletrials like are still covered by
the media, but in these onesback in the day they would bring
their cameras.
After certain hearings, thedefendants would be able to have
press appearances.
It was a show.

Remi (01:03:55):
Which it still can be to this day.

Ashley (01:03:59):
And like in this day and age, if reporters came into the
courtroom and were snappingphotos, they'd be kicked out.
But in 1920s, Chicago,reporters would be snapping
photos, a court hearing would beover and the defendant would be
like escorted a couple feetaway and then like give a whole
press hearing right then andthere, which is not something

(01:04:20):
that's done today.
Newspapers profited by creatingglamour out of the crimes and
the alleged perpetrators.
This wasn't only done througharticles, but with photographs
that corrected the physicalimperfections, by buffering out
wrinkles, eyebags and doublechins.

Remi (01:04:38):
Old school Photoshop.

Ashley (01:04:40):
This was the status quo of all Chicago newspapers when
27-year-old Maureen Watkinswalked into the Chicago Tribune
in early February 1924.
She wasn't interested inselling ads or working the
switchboards, the roles mostoften sought by women.
She wanted to be a policereporter.
Despite having no priornewspaper experience at all, she

(01:05:02):
was hired on the spot.

Remi (01:05:04):
Is there any reason why?

Ashley (01:05:06):
In the book I read which is in our show notes, it
alluded to the fact that thehiring person for the newspaper
thought she was pretty andthought she would bring a unique
perspective to it.
The Chicago Tribune actuallyhad one other female police
reporter the only other femalepolice reporter and then they
hired Maureen.

(01:05:26):
So it was kind of like can thiswoman bring a unique spin to
this type of reporting thatevery other single newspaper is
reporting on?
So it was basically he thoughtshe could sell more papers.

Remi (01:05:39):
It's a little insulting, but I'm glad she was given the
opportunity, obviously.

Ashley (01:05:45):
Maureen was a frequent visitor on Murderous Row, the
dorm housing about a dozen womenaccused of violent crimes,
mostly murder, at the CookCounty Jail.
The first major case shecovered was Belva Gartner, who
the media dubbed the moststylish woman on the cell block,
and this is Velma Kelly in thefilm.
At 14, belva's mothersurrendered her to a state

(01:06:07):
orphanage after her husband diedand she could no longer care
for her daughter.
At age 25, she met WilliamGairdner, who was two decades
older.
While she was married toanother man and working as a
cabaret dancer, william was oneof Chicago's most eligible
bachelors.
Given his career successes, hewas a millionaire scientist and
businessman who successfullybuilt a giant camera able to

(01:06:31):
take pictures of the canals andpolar caps on Mars in 1907.

Remi (01:06:36):
That is pretty impressive for the early 1900s to be able
to photograph Mars.

Ashley (01:06:42):
William was immediately captivated by Belva, despite
several red flags, primarilyinvolving her frequent address
changes and use of aliases whensettling delinquent accounts.
But none of this was known tohim when they married in 1917,
so she would have been about 33at this point.
William hoped Belva wouldsettle down after they married,

(01:07:04):
but she continued her partyingways, often not coming home
until 3 in the morning.
In her defense, she shecontinued her partying ways,
often not coming home untilthree in the morning.
In her defense, she alwaysinvited him out with her, but he
rarely joined.
As Belva spent more and moretime out of the house, william
hired a private investigator tofollow her.
In early 1920.
Her infidelity was confirmed afew months later when he walked

(01:07:24):
in on her in bed with anotherman.
He threw a fit, walked out, butthe next morning Belver
returned home like nothing everhappened.
Once William obviously did notlet her inside.
She just went downtown, got amuscle man, forced her way into
the house and moved her thingsinto a smaller room where she
stayed until William's divorcepetition was granted in May.

Remi (01:07:48):
She found a muscle man.

Ashley (01:07:50):
She worked at the cabaret so I assumed it was some
sort of like security someonedown there.

Remi (01:07:54):
Like a bouncer or something.
Okay.

Ashley (01:07:57):
After the divorce, Belva got a job as a taxi driver, a
scandalous career choice for awoman, since driving was
unladylike.
Come March 1924, William was inthe process of trying to get
Belva back, showering her withexpensive clothes, jewelry and
even a new car.
Although he was more successfulthan ever, Belva wasn't sure if

(01:08:18):
she wanted to reconcile, as sheenjoyed her fast-paced
lifestyle, which she knew.
Her former husband, who was nowpushing 60, wasn't really into.
Plus, she was now seeing WalterLaw, a married car salesman, 10
years her junior for the pastthree months.
Girl liked to party 38-year-oldBelva and Walter were sitting in

(01:08:38):
her car outside her apartmentduring the first hour of March
12, 1924.
The couple had been drinkingfor hours when he told her she
should act better when they wereout in public together.
At some point she exited thecar and went upstairs to her
apartment.
Two officers patrolling thearea saw a woman get back into
the car around one o'clock inthe morning.

(01:08:59):
Shortly after they heard agunshot and discovered a man
dead from a bullet wound to thehead.
But the woman was nowhere to befound.
An automatic pistol and emptybottle of gin were left behind
in the car.
It wasn't long until theofficers located Belva and her
residence.
They knocked on her door aboutan hour later.
There was blood on her clothes,a bruise on her cheek and the

(01:09:21):
face of her watch was shattered,stopping the time forever.
At 1.14 am At the police station, belvis said the two spent the
evening drinking and then sheheard a gunshot, but she didn't
know what happened or where itcame from because she was drunk.
Instead of tending to Walter'sinjuries, she ran home because
she was scared and couldn'tremember anything more.

(01:09:42):
After her initial policeinterview, reporters were
allowed into the room to askmore questions.
This is when Belva's storychanged.
She said the couple were jokingabout robbers and who was a
better shot.
While they were sitting in thecar that night, belva claimed
she sarcastically suggested theyplay a game to settle the
argument.
This game involved each personjust taking a shot at the other

(01:10:05):
until someone was hit.

Remi (01:10:06):
What do you mean taking a shot at the other until someone
was hit?
What do you mean taking a shot?

Ashley (01:10:08):
Like, one person would take the gun, try to shoot the
other, and if they missed, theother person would take the gun
and shoot the other, and if theymissed, so on and so on until
someone was shot.

Remi (01:10:19):
Wow Okay.

Ashley (01:10:21):
That's a crazy game.
How would you?

Remi (01:10:24):
miss.
You're right next to the person.

Ashley (01:10:27):
Spoiler alert Belva never mentions this again,
probably because after she gotan attorney he was like that's a
ridiculous claim.
Anyway, belva never said if heagreed to the game, but she did
say she saw him just collapseonto the steering wheel before
she ran home.
She didn't know who shot himand she didn't know what to do
because she was drunk and afraidfor her own life.

Remi (01:10:49):
These are all terrible excuses.

Ashley (01:10:52):
William hired Thomas Nash to represent Belva, as he
desperately wanted to marry heragain.
Nash was a highly sought outlawyer, particularly among
mobsters, one of whom was AlCapone.
At the next day's inquest, whichis a hearing to determine if a
crime occurred, walter's wifetestified that she didn't think
Belva shot her husband, since hewas devoted to her and he would

(01:11:15):
never cheat.
In addition to testimony fromlaw enforcement outlining the
evidence against her, one ofWalter's co-workers said Walter
recently told him he was goingto take out a bigger life
insurance policy since Belvathreatened to kill him twice in
the past month.
In the end, belva wasunsurprisingly indicted for
murder and lodged to the CookCounty Jail.

(01:11:36):
She adapted easily to her newsurroundings, as the
high-profile nature of the caseled to others vying for the
privilege of doing her bidding,being seen with her and even
making her bed.
In addition to frequentinterviews and photo ops,
william visited her nearly everyday and gave her enough cash to
make sure she could buywhatever privileges she needed,

(01:11:57):
including extra access to beautyproducts for her frequent press
appearances.
Belva wasn't the onlypublicized woman on Murderous
Row by March 1924.
There was Big Anna Piculon, thelargest woman to ever be jailed
on a murder charge who killedher husband after he said he'd
prefer a slimmer lover.
Next up is Moonshine MaryWesenick, the first woman to be

(01:12:22):
tried in Cook County for sellingpoisonous whiskey.

Remi (01:12:25):
Why did they change these women in the film?
These are very interestingbackstories.

Ashley (01:12:30):
We'll get into it later.
I don't really know what theoriginal play was like, but a
lot of these characters in theplay that Maureen wrote there
was aspects of them that weretaken.

Remi (01:12:42):
I kind of think of this story as like a game of
telephone, where this persontells a person, who tells a
person, and you get a verydifferent story in the end.

Ashley (01:12:54):
And this isn't like a lot of the ones we've done.
This isn't like the firstadaptation that has been made of
this movie.
This is like the fifth, sothings have warped across the
years, but anyway.
Next up is ElizabethJunkinaffer, accused of
murdering her lover after herhusband collapsed with grief
when he discovered herinfidelity.

(01:13:15):
Until Belva.
The two women who received themost coverage were Catherine
Kitty Malm and Sabella Nitti,belva's 19-year-old cellmate,
kitty, nicknamed Wolf Woman orTiger Girl by the press for no
reason other than to sell papers.

Remi (01:13:33):
That is quite the nickname given to her for absolutely no
reason.

Ashley (01:13:38):
For no reason.
It was just to generateheadlines, but she dominated the
headlines just two weeks beforeKitty and her illegitimate
husband Otto robbed a sweaterfactory and killed a young
security guard in November 1923.

Remi (01:13:53):
What is an illegitimate husband?

Ashley (01:13:55):
She married him before another divorce was finalized.
Otto immediately confessed tothe crime, but Kitty went on the
lam for a month, eventuallysurrendering in hopes of saving
her man and seeing hertwo-year-old daughter again.
Her lawyer was so confidentthat she would be acquitted that
he rejected a plea offerinvolving 14 years in prison.

(01:14:15):
Two to three weeks beforeBelva's arrest, kitty was
convicted and sentenced to lifein prison, probably because she
wasn't like other acquittedmurderesses.
She was poor, uneducated andnot considered to be
particularly beautiful, and thusshe was deemed a danger to
society.
The last key player sitting injail with Belva was Sabella

(01:14:38):
Nitti, a 40-something immigrantwoman convicted of killing her
husband with a hammer.
Sabella reported her farmerhusband Frank, missing in July
1922.
Less than a year later, shemarried the farmhand Peter
Crudel.
Two months after that, policefound the badly decomposed body

(01:15:00):
of a man, believed to be Frank,in a sewer drain.
Sabella and her 15-year-old son, charlie, were brought in for
questioning and after a longinterview, charlie said Peter
murdered his dad on his mom'sorders and made him help dispose
of the body.
Sabella, not understanding aword of what her son was
confessing to in English, toldofficers that whatever he was

(01:15:22):
saying was true.
Sabella and Peter were convictedof murder in the summer of 1923
.
Charlie's charges weredismissed after he testified
against his mom.
Not only was Sabella convicted,she was sentenced to die via
hanging in 95 days, making herthe first woman to ever receive
the death penalty in Illinois.
Since she didn't understand aword of English, not only

(01:15:45):
throughout her trial, but whenthe verdict was read, she didn't
even know what her sentence wasuntil someone translated it to
her back in jail, she was sodistraught that she tried to
commit suicide by ramming herhead against the wall.

Remi (01:16:00):
It seems in this situation that she did commit the crime.
There's not much of a doubt inthat area.
Did?

Ashley (01:16:07):
commit the crime.
There's not much of a doubt inthat area.
Well shortly after herconviction, a female defense
attorney took Sabella's case andfiled an appeal with the state
Supreme Court.
The arguments involved that thetrial lawyer was incompetent,
since attorney and clientcouldn't communicate or
understand each other throughoutthe whole defense process.
She also poked holes in thereliability of the evidence

(01:16:30):
against Sabella.
For example, there was reasonto doubt that the dead body was
even Frank's, if you think aboutit.
They found him two years aftertwo years-ish after he was
missing, and this is long, long,long, long, long before DNA.

Remi (01:16:45):
So there was reasonable doubt.

Ashley (01:16:49):
That's how it seemed in the book.
Regardless, this woman needed alot more services to be able to
stand through a whole trial,not understand a fucking single
word of what was being said,especially when it involves
someone being sentenced to death.
That's insane.

Remi (01:17:06):
Something that the film, and I would assume the musical,
does as well, is that theHungarian inmate.
None of her dialogue issubtitled or translated in any
way and it is all in Hungarian.
And I actually had to go onlineand look up what she was saying

(01:17:26):
in all of her scenes, becauseit's in another language and
everything she is saying ispleading her case, but nobody
can understand her.

Ashley (01:17:38):
I do remember that about the movie.
The only words she speaks inEnglish the whole time are not
guilty, not guilty.
But yeah, the key takeaway is Imean, she was sentenced to
death in three months and had noclue what was going on until
someone bothered to tell herafter the fact.
And just imagine sitting thereand it's like your 15 year old
son and she's like, yeah,whatever he says goes.

(01:18:01):
And it wasn't like.
I don't know how long theinterrogation was and I don't
know if this woman did it or not, who knows but it did say in
the book that it was a lengthyinterrogation.
And this is a 15-year-old kidwho's a son of an immigrant mom
who doesn't understand a lick ofEnglish, and he's being asked

(01:18:22):
about the disappearance of hisdad.
What a vulnerable situationboth these people are in
disappearance of his dad.

Remi (01:18:29):
What a vulnerable situation both these people are
in.
I think this was around thetime when the big immigration
was going on in America, where alot of other people from
countries and families weremigrating to the States, and I
could not imagine A howincredibly terrifying that would
be.
Coming on a boat and then intothis country that you know
nothing about.
You're basically going on wordof mouth and getting into some

(01:18:53):
sort of crazy legal situationlike this where you don't
understand a word anybody issaying to you, but you know
something serious is going on.
I would be terrified.
I just couldn't imagine beingin that sort of situation.

Ashley (01:19:10):
And she didn't have money, like Belva did, to hire
an attorney.
She wasn't young and pretty andeducated, so she didn't have
lawyers who were trying to latchthemselves onto her case for
publicity, so she had anattorney who didn't even bother
to try to communicate with herin any way.

Remi (01:19:31):
Yeah, you would just be at their mercy.

Ashley (01:19:34):
So, in addition to those last two facts, her new
attorney also claimed that thetestimony and confession given
by Charlie was coerced.
To help Sabella's case onappeal, the lawyer hired a
stylist, dressed her in a nicesuit and taught her some English
.
And this transformation worked.
In early 1924, the IllinoisSupreme Court reversed the

(01:19:56):
verdict and remanded it back tothe lower court for retrial.
And that brings us to the finalplayer in our cell block tango,
beulah Anon.
She was born in Owensboro,kentucky, on November 18, 1899.
When she was 15 years old, shetraveled to Indiana to marry a
boy she grew up with.

(01:20:17):
They had a son together a yearand a half later.
Beulah didn't take tomotherhood and went out whenever
she could.
As a result, her husband filedfor divorce and told her to
leave the town for the sake oftheir son, since he didn't think
she could be a good mom.
Viola complied.
She moved to Louisville whereshe met Al-Anon.
Shortly after she settled inChicago where Al joined her two

(01:20:40):
weeks later.
So this is Amos John C Reilly'scharacter.

Remi (01:20:44):
Al-Anon.

Ashley (01:20:47):
Al-Anon.
Yeah, maybe that's where AAcomes from Alcoholics Anonymous.

Remi (01:20:53):
I didn't even catch that before but yeah, yeah, sorry,
that stood out to me a littlebit.

Ashley (01:21:00):
The couple quickly married and Al took a job as a
mechanic.
Although they weren't rich byany means, al worked hard to
provide for his wife and gaveher virtually every cent he made
, growing tired of their modestmeans and being stuck at home
all day with little to do.
23-year-old Beulah startedworking as a bookkeeper at

(01:21:21):
Tenant Laundry in November 1923,which is where she met
29-year-old delivery driverHarry Kudstalt.
Their affair began in February1924.
Most of their excursionscentered around drinking.
Although Beulah was infatuatedwith Harry, she became
increasingly perturbed by thefact that he never seemed to

(01:21:43):
have any money to spend on her,despite his promises to take her
to fancy places and buy herexpensive things.
Her frustration boiled over theafternoon of April 3rd 1924.
Beulah heard a knock on herdoor around noon that afternoon.
It was Harry asking for moneyto buy them alcohol, even though
it smelled like he starteddrinking much earlier.

(01:22:04):
He took the dollar she had togive and returned with two
quarts of wine.
If only a dollar could buy twoquarts of wine these days, that
would be nice.

Remi (01:22:15):
Two-buck chucks aren't that far off.

Ashley (01:22:18):
The two listened to records while they drank, until
Beulah voiced her frustrationsabout his stingy spending habits
.
As the argument escalated, shecalled him a jailbird, knowing
this would upset him, as he wasvery sensitive about his legal
history.

Remi (01:22:34):
Could you imagine if someone got like really pissed
off being called a jailbirdtoday?

Ashley (01:22:40):
I know we're so much more sensitive nowadays.
It was about 5pm when Al got afrantic call at work from Beulah
telling him she shot a man whotried to rape her and that she
needed him to come home.
The first thing he noticed whenhe arrived was another man's
coat and hat hanging on the backof a kitchen chair.
The second was the body of adeceased man shot in the back in

(01:23:02):
their bedroom.

Remi (01:23:03):
It must have been a stylish coat and hat.

Ashley (01:23:06):
Beulah was sobbing as she explained how she fought her
assailant off.
Beulah was sobbing as sheexplained how she fought her
assailant off.
Police arrived around 6.20 andAl handed over the gun he said
was always kept in a dresserdrawer.
He initially tried to takeblame for the murder, but Beulah
interjected and admitted fault.
Like Belva, Beulah's storyslightly changed when she got to

(01:23:28):
the station.
Instead of portraying Harry asan unknown intruder, she
admitted she was having anaffair with him and invited him
into the house while her husbandwas at work.
She recounted how they weredrinking together, but he got
angry and started putting on hisjacket to leave when she
suggested ending theirrelationship.
At that point she became sodistraught that she shot him and

(01:23:51):
held him in her arms, cryingfor hours before calling her
husband for help.

Remi (01:23:57):
Hours.

Ashley (01:23:58):
Hours.
Despite her infidelity andprecarious legal situation, Al
loved Beulah and was willing tospend all of his money helping
her.
This led him to William Stewartand WW O'Brien, two attorneys
who made their initialreputations as highly successful
prosecutors.
About two years prior, theyteamed up and opened a

(01:24:20):
defense-based law firm.
The lawyers typically demandedcash up front, but sometimes
accepted partial payment with anacceptable explanation for how
the rest would be raised.
Although Al didn't have one,the duo took Beulah's case after
seeing her picture in themorning paper.
During the inquest two daysafter her arrest, the

(01:24:40):
prosecution highlighteddiscrepant evidence that didn't
quite match Beulah's story.
In my opinion, the biggestbombshell was the coroner, who
estimated that Harry died just30 minutes before the cops
arrived, meaning she did nothingto help him as he slowly died
on her floor for hours.
Now that she had lawyers,elements of Beulah's story

(01:25:04):
changed yet again.
Not only was Harry not leavingher, but he got so angry when
she called him a jailbird thathe rushed into the bedroom for
the gun he spotted on the bed.

Remi (01:25:14):
It's funny how, back in the day, you could just switch
your story repeatedly withouteven batting an eye.

Ashley (01:25:23):
It's really crazy officers that arrested her at
the house once she got to thejail and to the reporters who
interviewed her right after shegave her confession.
So now this is her fourth story.
They're all essentially havethe same elements, but very
important things that speak toher culpability are the things

(01:25:47):
that are changing O'Brien, themore animated of the two lawyers
, who this is clearly RichardGere's character loudly declared
during this inquest.
They both went for the gun.
He also said Beulah got to itfirst and shot Harry in
self-defense, setting the stagefor what would be said when the
case inevitably went to trial.

(01:26:08):
Beulah posed for photos afterthe inquest and was dubbed from
then on quote the prettiestwoman ever accused of murder in
Chicago.
Beulah posed for photos andspoke to reporters every chance
she got in jail, even going asfar as cutting out and saving
the best published pictures ofherself.
Fan mail flooded in, sometimesaccompanied with flowers, and

(01:26:33):
once even a steak dinner, whichI don't even know how is
possible.

Remi (01:26:37):
People that send out fan letters to potential murderers
have some pretty severeemotional problems of their own.

Ashley (01:26:48):
It wasn't long until she became convinced that her
popularity meant a career in theentertainment industry was in
her near future.
Al also got the saint treatmentin the press, which annoyed her
, since she couldn't help butthink this whole mess was all of
his fault.
He basically made her cheatbecause he never wanted to take
her out dancing and spend all ofhis time at work With Beulah

(01:27:11):
earning the role as Chicago'smurdering darling.
Belva knew she needed to rideher coattails to stay relevant.
She assumed the papers wouldlump the two women together if
they were in enough sharedphotos, and she was right.
Belva and Beulah were the starsof Chicago's murderous row, at
least for the next few weeks,until 23-year-old Wanda Stopa

(01:27:34):
took over the headlines.

Remi (01:27:36):
What did Wanda do?

Ashley (01:27:37):
Well, before we get into what Wanda did, let's talk
about who Wanda was.
Wanda was a brilliant Polishwoman who graduated from John
Marshall Law School and becamethe first female attorney to
work for the Chicago DistrictAttorney's Office, seemingly as
a trial assistant.
Sometime in the early 1920s shemet 37-year-old advertising

(01:27:59):
executive Yerma Smith.
What we know about theirrelationship comes directly from
his statements to police, so itis likely one-sided, although
I'm not sure exactly how theymet.
Smith said he liked Wandabecause of her brain and offered
to put her up in a cityapartment so she could get away
from her ex-husband.
This generosity wasn't reallyuncommon for Smith and his wife,

(01:28:21):
as they often offered lodgingto young artists in need.
Even after she moved in, though, smith continued to spend
nights at the apartment when hehad to work late nights in the
city.
He adamantly denied that theywere anything more than friends.
However, I suspect there ismore to the story, setting aside
the age difference of a23-year-old woman and a

(01:28:43):
37-year-old man who's puttingher up for low rent in his
apartment and sleeping there onthe reg.
In July 1924, wanda justabruptly moved to New York.
After her desperate attempts toget Smith to leave his wife
failed, she love-bombed him withletters pleading him to leave
his wife.
Once his responses stopped, shestarted using drugs and even

(01:29:08):
mailed the couple a box ofpoisoned chocolate which
thankfully neither recipient ate.
And after all of this went down, all of her friends and
co-workers were like we wouldhave never suspected this of her
.
This was very outside of hercharacter.
Wanda hosted a party at herhouse in Greenwich Village the
night of April 23, 1924.

(01:29:29):
When everyone was good andliquored up, she announced she
was going to Chicago in themorning to kill a woman and
maybe a man, because the wifewouldn't give up the guy Wanda
loved.
Her confession was met withnothing but laughter.
Once alone, wanda called Smithto tell him she was coming to
Chicago for a final showdown.
After he hung up, she headed tothe train station for her trip

(01:29:53):
to the Windy City.
The train pulled into Chicagoaround 7 in the morning.
Wanda hailed a cab to Smith'shouse and arrived about an hour
and a half later.
She asked the driver to wait,since her visit wouldn't take
long and she had a return trainto catch.
Wanda pushed past the smith'smaid and found his wife in bed

(01:30:13):
recovering from the flu.
She yelled at the woman todivorce her husband, while the
handyman stood between themtrying to defuse the situation.
Once she refused to file fordivorce, wanda pulled out a gun,
shot and killed the handymanand fired several more rounds as
the wife leapt through thewindow to run and get help.
The taxi driver didn't hear athing, since she was deaf, and

(01:30:36):
drove Wanda back to the trainstation, blissfully unaware of
what had just transpired inside.
She then took a train toDetroit and checked into a hotel
under a different nameDescriptions of Wanda and the
cab driver went out immediatelyafter the shooting.
A businessman recognized herthe next day and alerted the
authorities.
However, she was never arrested, as she committed suicide that

(01:31:00):
morning by drinking potassiumcyanide.
Wanda's body arrived in ChicagoSunday morning.
A group of reporters werewaiting at the train station and
pooled their money to deliverthe casket once it became clear
that there was a mix-up with thefamily about where the body was
getting dropped off.
This is like the one thing thereporters do, nice in this whole

(01:31:22):
story For the next three days,which included a viewing of the
body and the funeral, thousandsof people and I'm talking
upwards of like 10 to 15,000people.
It was so big that there werepeanut vendors selling peanuts
outside of these grievingparents' homes, with reporters

(01:31:42):
going all in on coverage ofWanda Beulah, decided to do
something drastic.
During the second week of Mayshe called a press conference
and announced she was pregnantand claimed Harry attacked her
after she told him she washaving Al's baby.
Maureen Dallas Watkins was theonly reporter who casted doubt

(01:32:03):
on this story.
Biela's trial started on May23rd, not even two months after
her arrest.
This blows my mind, becausemurder trials now are like years
and years and years out.
She's going to trial less thantwo months after the murder.

Remi (01:32:21):
It seems like things moved a lot quicker back in the day,
for whatever reason.
It probably was at thedetriment of the people on trial
, but the system moved a lotquicker back then.

Ashley (01:32:35):
As expected, O'Brien argued self-defense, sticking to
his they both reach for the gunstory.
Bula was the sole witness forthe defense, and she was a good
one.
She denied or said she didn'tremember when cross-examined

(01:32:57):
about her initial confessions,never wavering from the story
she stuck to since she gotrepresentation.
The two-day trial ended with ajury deliberation that lasted
less than two hours.
To Maureen Watkins' dismay, shewas acquitted.
After thanking each juror andposing for pictures, beulah

(01:33:18):
shared her plans of returning toher quiet life with Al.
Two days later, she announcedshe was considering moving to
Southern California to pursue anacting career and divorcing Al
because he quote doesn't want meto have a good time, he never
wants to go out anywhere and hedoesn't know how to dance.
I'm not going to waste the restof my life with him, he's too

(01:33:38):
slow.
Belvis' trial started a fewweeks later.
It also lasted two days, butshe didn't testify.
Her defense involved hersupposed lack of memory for the
murder, painting the evidenceagainst her as circumstantial
and pointing the finger at otherpotential suspects.
After seven hours ofdeliberation, she too was also

(01:33:58):
acquitted.
Maureen Watkins became awell-known criminal reporter two
weeks after she started workingat the Chicago Tribune.
By the end of Belva's trial,she had grown tired of the job
and transitioned to societalpieces, killing time.
Before she started classes atYale's newly established drama
department, she also startedworking on a play based on

(01:34:22):
Beulah's case.
It was initially titled BraveNew World and focused on the
criminal justice system,sensational journalism and the
corruption in both fields.

Remi (01:34:33):
Horrible title.

Ashley (01:34:34):
It is a really bad title .
The goal was to expose howlawyers and reporters were more
interested in their own goalsrather than truth and justice.
Before the end of 1924, sheresigned from the Chicago
Tribune, moved to New York,accepted a job as a junior
editor of a city-based magazineand took the train into

(01:34:55):
Connecticut for class.
Maureen's professor requiredall students to read drafts of
their primary projects out loudin class for feedback.
Everyone loved Brave New Worldas it was shocking, hilarious
and, most importantly, original.

Remi (01:35:11):
But they hated the title.

Ashley (01:35:13):
It was finished by the end of the term and renamed
Chicago.

Remi (01:35:17):
There you go.

Ashley (01:35:19):
At the end of each year the professor also picked a play
from the workshop and helpedplace it with professional
producers.
For 1926, he chose Chicago andintroduced Maureen to New York
agents.
In fall 1926, a renownedplaywright and producer signed
on as the director and risingstage actor, Francine Larimore,

(01:35:42):
was cast as the lead role, RoxyHart.
Chicago's Broadway opening wasDecember 30, 1926.

Remi (01:35:51):
Nearly 100 years ago.

Ashley (01:35:55):
And her professor chose this play at the end of the year
, the school year of 1926.
So let's put that at about Mayand it's opening on Broadway by
the end of the year.

Remi (01:36:07):
Things moved a lot quicker back in the day.
I don't know if it was becauseof a shorter lifespan, but it
just seemed like life movedfaster.

Ashley (01:36:16):
I think it also showed how much people really thought
that this play was something.
She was a Yale drama studentwho wrote the first play she
ever wrote, and in half a yearit's on Broadway.

Remi (01:36:30):
It is very impressive.

Ashley (01:36:32):
There was some initial concern, however, about how it
would be received, as threerecent plays were slammed for,
quote, corrupting the morals ofyouth and Chicago had both
drinking and sex.
Fortunately, critics andaudience recognized the
ambitious production andimmediately embraced it.
It was a smash hit, almostalways planning to sold out

(01:36:54):
houses and getting the greenlight for a national tour.

Remi (01:37:02):
There is no footage online that we could find of the
original play and I would bereally interested to see what it
was like before it was turnedinto the musical, but there's
like nothing that we could findon it.

Ashley (01:37:12):
Despite its success, maureen kept the true
inspiration behind Chicago Quiet.
Roxy and Velma were obviouslybased on Beulah and Belva,
including their physicaldescriptions.
Elements of Sabella, nettie,kitty, mom Moonshine, maggie and
Elizabeth Uncafer were alsoincorporated into the supporting

(01:37:33):
characters.
Maureen even included elementsof herself in the female
reporter character who didn'tbuy into the sham public
personas of the female leads.

Remi (01:37:44):
Wait, is she the drag queen character?

Ashley (01:37:47):
In the original production, the sole female
reporter.
Yes, this was supposed to beher.

Remi (01:37:54):
Mary Sunshine.

Ashley (01:37:55):
I don't know when it came to be a drag queen
character.
I'm assuming maybe once it cameinto the musical.
But it sounds like in theoriginal production there was
this big reporting audience thatwere all males and there was
one female and she was supposedto be the one female.
But like I said, I don't knowif they kind of incorporated the
drag queen after it became amusical some 50 years later.

(01:38:18):
Interestingly, some snippets ofthe dialogue came straight from
Beulah's trial, hence the theyboth reach for the gun.
Many key plot points of hercrime were unchanged and some of
the stage direction and scenedescriptions were taken nearly
word for word from Marine'sarticles.

(01:38:40):
The play arrived in Chicago inthe fall of 1927, after running
for 172 performances on Broadwayand movie rights being sold to
Hollywood.
Roxy's attorney and Belva sawthe show in October.
Both loved it and publiclyannounced the real identities of
the leads.
Maureen kept an active role inthe production, often starring

(01:39:02):
as background characters orunderstudying for minor roles.
In addition to the tour, shecontinued to contract for
newspapers covering high-profilecriminal and civil trials.
She started working on twofollow-up productions in the
spring of 1927.
Neither was well-received,possibly because of the
controversial topics a recentlydeceased president and a

(01:39:24):
down-on-her-luck prostitute.
Or maybe it was because she wasstretched too thin and she
publicly admitted that shedidn't give either project the
attention it deserved.

Remi (01:39:34):
I really respect Maureen and that she accomplished all of
this.

Ashley (01:39:38):
She loved this play.
It was her baby, so she waspromoting it.
She was touring around thecountry with it and she was
still doing freelance articles.
And then she, after less than ayear after this was released,
while she was still doing allthis, she tried to write two
more plays at the same time andshe just couldn't do it.

Remi (01:39:58):
It seems like this play was more personal to her because
she had been assigned to itfrom the Chicago Tribune and she
had that firsthand experiencewith it.
Had that firsthand experiencewith it and it doesn't seem like
she necessarily had that withthe other two plays.

Ashley (01:40:21):
So her strength- was working from source material
that she had known or livedthrough in some capacity.
The movie adaptation of Chicagoopened in late December 1927 to
mix critical reviews, but itstill did well at the box office
.

Remi (01:40:31):
There was a 1927 movie of Chicago, really.

Ashley (01:40:35):
Not a musical version of it, but yeah.
Apparently her play was adaptedinto a movie the next year.
Although Chicago was chosen asone of the best plays by the New
York Daily News, maureen gaveup playwriting and moved to LA
to pursue a career as ascreenwriter.
She co-wrote Liable Lady in1936, which received an Academy

(01:40:57):
Award nomination for BestPicture.

Remi (01:41:00):
I am not very well versed in my 1930s, 40s and 50s Academy
Awards.

Ashley (01:41:08):
Well, and she did write many other screenplays, but from
what I read, all the movieswere kind of forgettable.
Chicago was remade in 1942, butwith several changes, the most
important being that Roxy didn'tcommit the murder.
This change was due to the HaysCode, which stated quote no
picture shall be produced thatwill lower the moral standards

(01:41:32):
of those who see it, meaningcriminals couldn't get away with
murder on the silver screen.

Remi (01:41:38):
I do remember going over the Hays Code back in film
school.

Ashley (01:41:42):
Do you know any more about that, other than you
couldn't portray anything thatcould be viewed as like super
immoral?

Remi (01:41:50):
I don't know a lot of the rules off the top of my head.
I just know that there wererestrictions issued on what
could be portrayed in film, Likeshowing someone flushing a
toilet was forbidden.
I think showing two people inthe same bed, a man and a woman
even that was forbidden.

(01:42:10):
They had very, very strictmoral guidelines.

Ashley (01:42:15):
So I just googled it.
It prohibited profanity,obscenity, racial slurs and
graphic violence.
It was repealed in 1968 andreplaced with the film rating
system.

Remi (01:42:28):
The MPAA.

Ashley (01:42:29):
It was around the time of this remake that Maureen quit
screenwriting and moved toFlorida to be closer to her
parents.
She devoted her later years topromoting and funding college
scholarships and repeatedlyturning down offers to turn
Chicago into a musical, likelybecause she was upset about how
her play was adapted in 1942.
She died from lung cancer in1969 at the age of 73.

(01:42:52):
Following her death, her familysold the rights of Chicago.
The music adaptation opened in1975, went on tour and, as we
discussed at the beginning ofthis episode, became a worldwide
smash hit sensation, eventhough this is not what she
wanted, because she fought sohard to have this not be the

(01:43:14):
case.
From what the author of thebook I read his perception of it
is, she would have been happywith the musical adaptation
because her primary qualm aboutthe 1942 movie was because of
the Hays Code.
They had to change so much tomake it work and it reverted
back to her original writing inthe musical adaptation.

(01:43:35):
So who knows if she would haveliked it, but it's the second
most popular Broadway play toever exist, so that says
something.

Remi (01:43:44):
It makes me think of the woman who wrote Mary Poppins.
I cannot remember the author'sname, but she was very against
it being made into a sillyanimated musical.
I can fully understand someonebeing apprehensive turning
something so personal to theminto a musical of all things.

(01:44:09):
Like I said, to a musical ofall things.
Like I said, musicals aredivisive.
A lot of people don't likemusicals.
If you hear that your projectis being made into a drama or
something else, it's justdifferent.

Ashley (01:44:22):
The acquittals of Beulah and Belva ignited a debate
about whether it was time forwomen to serve on Illinois
juries.
Women's groups and femalelawyers actively lobbied for the
right to be included.
Voters actually passed a lawallowing women to be on juries
in 1931, but it was reversed bythe state Supreme Court.

(01:44:42):
Finally, in 1939, illinoisallowed female jurors.
An immediate and unexpectedbenefit was the percentage of
men asking for jury exceptionssubstantially dropped, with no
other clear explanation otherthan they now had female
companions to stare at, both onthe stand and to their left and

(01:45:04):
right.

Remi (01:45:05):
That's funny.

Ashley (01:45:06):
Both Beulah's attorneys had their own legal problems.
After her trial, williamStewart was sentenced to three
months in jail for contempt ofcourt after attempting to
prevent a state's witness fromappearing in 1929.
He continued to representmobsters throughout the 1930s,

(01:45:28):
which took its toll on hispersonal life.
He died of a heart attack in1964.
He died of a heart attack in1964.
Ww O'Brien, who, in my opinionand I think it's pretty clear
that this is Richard Gere'scharacter was disbarred after
trying to remove evidence fromthe state attorney's office in
1936.
And then he just disappearedafter facing new legal charges
in 1944, and there is nothingelse about this man.

(01:45:53):
Kitty Mom Velva's cellmate was amodel prison inmate.
She became proficient intypewriting and shorthand with
hopes that her new skills wouldbenefit her if she was ever
granted release, even though theboard repeatedly declined her
request for parole.
She was only 28 years old whenshe died from pneumonia in
December 1932.
Only 28 years old when she diedfrom pneumonia in December 1932

(01:46:16):
.
Sabella Nettie was released onbail a few weeks after Belva's
June 1924 trial, remember.
Her appeal was granted.
She returned to her farm hometo await the retrial that never
came, since her charges weredismissed in December of that
same year, so she was supposedto have been the first woman to
be hanged in Illinois, but shewas not.
Belva remarried William in May1925, but it wasn't long before

(01:46:40):
she returned to her old ways.
He filed for divorce afteragain walking in on her with
another man in July 1926.
They reconciled and moved toEurope in 1930.
Following his death in 1948,she moved to Pasadena to be
closer to her sister and died ofnatural causes at the age of 80

(01:47:01):
in May 1965.
Poor Cellophane Al was aloneand left with Beulah's legal
bills after she filed fordivorce, but he vowed to love
her always.
Ten years later, he wasconvicted of manslaughter after
he beat a woman to death duringa drunken argument in their
shared Chicago apartment.
He never ended up serving anytime, though, since his petition

(01:47:24):
for retrial was granted withthe help of William Stewart and
the judge dismissed the case dueto lack of evidence.
As for our leading lady, BeulahAnon, her popularity with the
press predictably droppedimmediately after her acquittal.
There was no evidence she wasever pregnant.
She moved to Indiana andmarried a 26-year-old boxer in

(01:47:47):
January 1926.
The marriage lasted four months.
She then returned to Chicagoand lived with her mom.
She never saw the play, as shewas bedridden on and off for
weeks.
By the time it arrived in theWindy City In early 1928, she
was diagnosed with tuberculosisand admitted to the Chicago
Fresh Air Sanitarium.

(01:48:08):
She died a few weeks later, onMarch 10, 1928, at the age of 28
.
And that is the true story ofRob Marshall's Chicago.
What did you think, remy?

Remi (01:48:19):
I think this is a very interesting and unique case,
originating from the 20s, and,as we said before, it's like a
game of telephone, where it'spassed on from person to person
to person and the story isaltered a little bit here and
there throughout the years.
I really would have loved tohear the reactions from anyone

(01:48:44):
that was involved in theoriginal trial of how they felt
about the musical, because itseemed like even the writer was
very adamantly against it andnever saw it.
So no one involved with theoriginal ever saw the version
that is the most well-knowntoday.
And I'd be curious to know whatthey thought of it.

Ashley (01:49:06):
So this is just my gut.
I have nothing to back this up,other than complete speculation
Based on how good and howbeloved this production both the
movie and the play are, that itwould be something she would be
proud of.

Remi (01:49:22):
I think that, even though there were a lot of changes made
, the essence of the story iscaptured in the musical.
Again, a lot of liberties taken, but the spirit of the original
story was kept intact andcertain elements were even
enhanced through song.

Ashley (01:49:43):
Let's pause that and save that discussion for our
verdict.
But first let's get into ourobjection of the Week, your,
Honor.

Remi (01:49:51):
I object.
And why is that, mr Reed?

Verdict (01:49:54):
Because it's devastating, to my case,
overruled, good call.

Ashley (01:49:58):
All right, remy, I want you to start this For our
Objection of the Week.
What is your most pointlesschange that was made from the
true story to the movie version?

Remi (01:50:09):
Well, this is an interesting one, because there's
been so many little changeshere and there throughout the
years, but the most superfluouschange that came to mind for me
during all of this was the factthat Fred in the movie life
series of events was a deliverydriver, but in the film they

(01:50:34):
changed it to a furnituresalesman, for no reason at all.

Ashley (01:50:39):
That is the one I picked .
Damn it.

Remi (01:50:43):
He could have been what he really was in real life, but
furniture salesman.

Ashley (01:50:48):
Why.
I agree that was the big, bigone that came out to me.
The only other one I thought ofwas that, the Sabella character
in the movie she decapitatedher husband, but in real life
she was accused of shooting himin the head.
I think we're going to tie forthat one, because that was my
first one by far.

(01:51:08):
I had like two stars by it.

Remi (01:51:11):
All right, we're kicking season four off with an
agreement on our objection forthe week, but what about our
verdict for the film Chicago Atthe conclusion of each?

Verdict (01:51:23):
episode, our hosts will deliver a verdict based on the
film's accuracy.
If the film is an honestportrayal of the events.
Based on the film's accuracy.
If the film is an honestportrayal of the events, then it
will earn a not guilty verdict.
If the adaptation is mostlyfactual but creative liberties
were taken for the sake ofentertainment, the film will be
declared a mistrial.
But if the film ultimatelystrays too far from the truth,

(01:51:45):
then it will be condemned asguilty and sentenced to a life
behind bars, guilty andsentenced to a life behind bars
Since I started last time.

Remi (01:51:53):
I will let you, ashley, begin.

Ashley (01:51:56):
For me when I'm going about my verdict.
In this film I'm taking intoaccount.
There's obviously a lot thathas been changed.
I'm assuming there's a lot thathad been changed from real life
to the play marine rogue, but Ithink it is so noteworthy that
you can clearly tell who thesetwo main women are, especially

(01:52:18):
with roxy hart's character.
There's a lot of similaritiesbetween her and beulah.
It is so clear who it is.
So, because of how true it hasbeen kept in almost a hundred
years from the crime to whenwe're recording this today, I'm
saying mistrial.

Remi (01:52:37):
I agree with you.
I think that this film has allof the key points and framework
of the original story from 1920.
Things have been changed.
This was never going to get anot guilty verdict, but as you
were telling the story, ashley,you could pick out almost where

(01:53:00):
the songs would be in certainparts.
So it seems like the spirit ofthe true story is there.
Everything else has beenchanged, but I do still think
the essence of the original isintact.

Ashley (01:53:15):
And even with everything else that has been changed,
really the big main things thatare changed is Belva's murder.
She didn't kill her husband andsister, it was her lover.
That's a big, big, big, big,big change.

Remi (01:53:30):
It's hard to describe, but there have been a ton of
changes, but it still feels likethe original is in there and
everything is being based off ofthat original story.
It's not just being made up.
Well, I think that concludesour season premiere of our

(01:53:51):
season four episode.
Yay us, we did it.
I cannot believe we havecontinued on this far and I am
excited to continue on from here.
Ashley, would you like to tellour listeners a little bit about
what we will be getting intonext week?

Ashley (01:54:11):
Sure, I'll take that bullet, as I dropped at the
beginning of this episode when Isaid Chicago was one we had
been talking about doing, or oneI guess I had been pushing
about doing since the conceptionof this whole podcast started.
We're following it up withanother episode and movie that
was also on our very, very, veryshort list of episodes and

(01:54:35):
movies to cover in our seasonone, but we didn't, and we'll
get into why we didn't and whywe have waited until season four
to do it in two weeks.
But the movie is called theDeath of Dick Long and it is
about a case that is actuallythe case that made bestiality
illegal in the state ofWashington.

Remi (01:54:57):
I don't think I have much to elaborate on that, but the
film is directed by an AcademyAward winning director of a
recent Best Picture winnerpicture winner.
It is a graphic story and adark comedy film.
Stay tuned for a little trailerfor the film we will be
covering next week, but untilthen, court is adjourned.

Verdict (01:55:25):
Murderer?
Who the fuck's a murderer?
We're the fucking murderers.

Ashley (01:55:30):
Yes, we got a little carried away last night.

Verdict (01:55:33):
Once I had a secret love.
You know what dude?
What are they doing in PulpFiction?

Ashley (01:55:39):
Call Anthony Kiedis.
You think I'll hardly tell.
Anthony Kiedis is the dude fromRed Hot.

Remi (01:55:42):
Chili Peppers, shut the fuck up.

Verdict (01:55:47):
You were with Dick last night.

Ashley (01:55:49):
Yeah, I mean not really.
I mean not really.
I mean yeah, but like just forlike a little while I left early
.

Remi (01:55:54):
He didn't come home.

Verdict (01:55:57):
The S has hit the fan what the?
S I don't know what you'respelling dude Um, excuse me,
police lady.

Ashley (01:56:08):
Dick's dead.
What Dick is short for Richard?
Oh yeah, how did he die?
He fell on a table, saw he gotshot by a hunter Alcohol
poisoning.
How did he die, zeke, tell methe truth.

Verdict (01:56:33):
And my secret love's no secret anymore,

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