Ed Gein & Hollywood (Bonus Episode)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hard Copy News (00:01):
You're working too fast.

Georgia Foster (Ed's Neighb (00:04):
I'm sorry, Mother.
Just go slow and steady.

Take your time, sweet boy.
The movie Psycho went on tobecome a sequel, then another
sequel.
The movie Texas ChainsawMassacre was also largely based
on these crimes, as was TheSilence of the Lamb.

(00:34):
Long after the movies haveforgotten, though, the terrible
legend of Ed Gean will live onin Wisconsin.

Remi (00:43):
And welcome back, everyone.
Halloween is here, and wecouldn't resist bringing you all
a special bonus episode aboutone of the most infamous figures
in true crime history, theso-called butcher of Plainfield,
Ed Gean.
His gruesome story seeped intopop culture and became the

(01:04):
inspiration behind some ofhorror's most iconic creations,
including Psycho's Norman Bates,Leatherface in Texas Chainsaw
Massacre, and Buffalo Bill inThe Silence of the Lambs.

Ashley (01:17):
But there's another reason we're tackling Gean now.
Netflix's hit anthology seriesMonster is back.
After Ryan Murphy and IanBrennan shocked audiences with
Dahmer and revisited theMenendez Brothers, they're
turning their lens on Ed Geannext.

Remi (01:34):
We previously watched the first two seasons of Monster and
were really blown away by theattention to detail and the
quality of the Dahmer season andthe Menendez Brothers season,
so we were excited to add thisone to the docket as well.

Ashley (01:51):
And it's spooky season, so it gave us a great excuse to
watch three classic horrorflicks.

Remi (01:57):
Were you familiar with Ed Geen before we decided to do
this episode?
I knew a little bit about him,but I feel like I'm practically
an expert on him after all theresearch we've done.

Ashley (02:08):
I knew a fair amount about him, not necessarily about
like his upbringing, but abouthis crimes.
I was pretty well versed in it.
But I definitely learned a lotfrom doing this research.

Remi (02:21):
I had known that Norman Bates, Leatherface, and Buffalo
Bill were inspired by Gean, butuntil really diving into it, I
didn't realize how little wastaken from Gean.
Which is why we decided thatthis Halloween, we're pulling
back the curtain on the realcase, the movies it spawned, and

(02:42):
how Ed Gean still shapesAmerican horror decades later.

Ashley (02:47):
Then in a follow-up episode next week, we'll discuss
Monster, the Ed Gean story,which promises to bring Gean's
twisted tale to a whole newgeneration just in time for
Spooky Seeds Ed.
So let's get into the truestory of Ed Gean.

Remi (03:23):
In 1879, three-year-old George Geane's life changed
forever.
His family lived on a smallfarm in Coon Valley, Wisconsin.
One day, his parents and oldersister headed into town to run
errands, but tragedy struck whentheir wagon was swept away in a
sudden flash flood.
George was left an orphan as aresult.

(03:45):
He was taken in by his maternalgrandparents, finished
elementary school, and beganapprenticing with the local
blacksmith.
By his early twenties, Georgeleft the farm and moved to La
Crosse, drifting between jobs,selling insurance, doing
carpentry, working at a tannery,and even a brief stint at the
city power plant.

(04:05):
But steady work didn't last.
George struggled to hold jobs,likely because of his drinking.
Most of his days ended at thebar where he'd spend nearly all
of his paycheck.
He also wrestled with darkmoods, sometimes blaming the
world for his bad luck, othertimes convinced he was worthless
and incompetent.

Ashley (04:26):
During his time in the cross, George met Augusta.
She was just 19, and he was 24.
Augusta was deeply religious,fiercely moral, and quick to
condemn what she saw as theimmorality of modern life.
Stern, self-righteous, anddominating, she came from a
large, close-knit family.
Something George, with his ownfractured childhood, may have

(04:50):
found appealing.
On December 4th, 1899, Georgeand Augusta married.
From the start, Augusta ruledthe home with an iron fist.
She was harsh, rigid, anddeeply intolerant.
She belittled Georgeconstantly, calling him
worthless, lazy, good fornothing, and lacking in ambition

(05:10):
spirit.
The usually withdrawn and quietGeorge rarely fought back, but
on rare occasions, his angerbroke through and he'd lash out,
sometimes even striking her.

Remi (05:21):
On January 17th, 1902, George and Augusta's first son
Henry was born.
His childhood was marked byisolation and loneliness, a
quiet life that stretched on for40 years until his death.
Augusta kept her distance fromHenry, admitting she had prayed
for a daughter instead of a son.
Seven years later, on August27, 1909, Edward Theodore was

(05:47):
born.
Augusta swore this child wouldnot grow up like other men, but
even with that vow, her lovecame with cruelty.
Whenever young Ed mademistakes, she cut him down by
calling him useless, stupid, andsomeone only a mother could
love.

Ashley (06:04):
By 1913, Augusta had a new plan.
The family would leave thetemptations of the city behind
and become farmers.
She scrapped together enoughmoney for a modest place and
moved the family 40 miles awayto a small dairy farm.
They didn't stay there long,less than a year, but it marked
the first of many attempts tokeep her family isolated and

(06:25):
under her control.
By 1914, the Geans bought a195-acre farm in Plainfield,
Wisconsin, a remote homesteadthat instantly pleased Augusta.
The house sat six miles outsideof town, with the nearest
neighbors a quarter mile downthe road.
For Augusta, the distance wasperfect.

(06:45):
She distrusted Plainfield andthe people in it, convinced the
small farming town of roughly800 had loose morals and weak
religious values.
To her, the residents wereuntrustworthy, beneath her
family.
Yet Plainfield itself was amodest, hard-working community,
mostly poor farmers who stilltook pride in helping one

(07:06):
another.

Remi (07:07):
At eight years old, Ed began grade school at a one-room
schoolhouse with just 12students.
He stayed through the eighthgrade, finishing his formal
education at 16.
His performance was average,his IQ unremarkable, but what
stood out was how alone he felt.
Ed struggled to connect withhis classmates and never quite

(07:28):
fit in.
On the rare occasions he seemedclose to making a friend,
Augusta shut it down.
She warned him other familieswere bad influences, the
father's drunks, the mother'simmoral.
Ed absorbed her judgment andstayed isolated.
He was a quiet, sensitive boy,soft-spoken, meek, easily

(07:50):
brought to tears, and unable totake a joke.
When other kids teased him,especially with crude sexual
remarks, it only reinforced whatAugusta had taught that the
world was wicked and dangerous,and the only safe place was
home.

Ashley (08:06):
Life on the farm was harsh.
It produced just enough to keepthe family fed.
The boys rarely left except formonthly supply trips into town.
Meanwhile, their father drankheavily and grew abusive towards
his wife and sons.
As the boys got older,Augusta's teachings became
darker.
She railed against the sins ofmodern women, quoting scripture

(08:29):
and retelling Bible stories likeNoah's Ark, warning of a
cleansing flood that would washwomen's wickedness away.
Her views on sex were extreme.
She considered it a disgustingnecessity, something to endure
only for the sake of havingchildren.
She made her son swear to stayuncontaminated by women.

Remi (09:22):
That same year, at 36, Ed traveled to Milwaukee for his
army physical, but was rejectedfor service due to a small
growth on his eyelid thatslightly affected his vision.
With George gone, the sonspicked up odd jobs to bring in
extra money.
Ed worked as a handyman andeven babysat for neighbors.

(09:42):
Children loved him.
He was gentle, patient, andmore at ease with them than with
adults.
Around women, especially, Edwas awkward and self-conscious.
Still, those who hired himfound him polite, dependable,
and quiet.

Ashley (10:08):
Henry grew increasingly independent, taking more work
away from home.
Ed admired his older brotherdeeply.
They'd always been close,spending time fishing and
hunting together.
But Henry worried about Ed'sintense attachment to Augusta.
He once hinted that Ed might betoo close to their mother.
A suggestion that seemed togenuinely surprise Ed.

(10:31):
On May 16th, 1944, tragedystruck again.
Henry Gean died suddenly atjust 43 years old.
That day, Henry and Ed werefighting a brush fire in a
nearby marsh when the two becameseparated.
Ed later reported his brothermissing and joined the search.
But something about how Henrywas found raised eyebrows.

(10:52):
Ed led searchers straight tothe body.
The ground nearby was scorched,but Henry himself wasn't
burned.
There were also unexplainedbruises on his head.
Despite those odd details, theofficial cause of death was
ruled asphyxiation.
Investigators noted no foulplay, and the case was quietly

(11:13):
closed.

Remi (11:14):
Not long after Henry's death, Augusta herself fell ill.
She complained of feeling faintand weak, and a doctor was
called.
The diagnosis?
A stroke.
From that moment on, Augustabecame completely dependent on
Ed, and he seemed to welcome it.
Caring for his mother gave hima sense of purpose.

(11:34):
He waited on her hand and foot,tending to her every need.
At night, he'd sit by herbedside and read aloud from the
Bible, devoted and watchful.
But in the winter of 1945,tragedy came again.
While visiting a neighbor todiscuss selling straw, Augusta
suffered a second stroke as theypulled into the yard.

(11:56):
She was rushed to the hospital,but it was too late.
On December 29, 1945, AugustaGean died at the age of 67.

Ashley (12:07):
After Augusta's death, Ed's world grew smaller and
stranger.
Though he mostly stoppedworking his own land, the farm
falling further into disrepair,he never turned down a neighbor
who needed an extra set ofhands.
He survived by leasing out afew acres and picking up
handyman work aroundPlayingfield.
In his free time, Ed buriedhimself in reading, especially

(12:31):
lurid true crime magazines likeInside Crime and Startling
Detective.
He became obsessed withviolent, disturbing stories.
When he did venture off thefarm, it was usually for work or
to visit Mary Hogan's tavern.
Ed wasn't much of a drinker,but he was fascinated by Mary, a
brash, foul-mouthed middle-agedwoman who oddly reminded him of

(12:54):
his mother.

Remi (12:55):
Inside the farmhouse, things were bleak.
Trash and rotting cluttercovered the floors.
Ed's diet was little more thanpork and beans, and he even
saved chewing gum in an oldcoffee can.
He lived in just three rooms,the kitchen, living room, and
his bedroom, while the rest ofthe house slowly decayed.

(13:16):
His reading turned much darkertoo.
He devoured accounts ofnotorious killers and
atrocities, Nazis, cannibals,headhunters.
He was fascinated by the Bitchof Buckenwald, Ilsa Kotch, the
wife of a Nazi who becameinfamous for collecting human
remains.
He clipped newspaper articlesabout local tragedies, car

(13:39):
wrecks, suicides, unexplaineddisappearances.
He even read about a man whohad undergone a sex change
operation in New York, fuelinghis own fantasies about becoming
a woman.
Ed also believed, at least fora time, that his mother's spirit
lingered.
He claimed to hear her voicetelling him to be good.
He was convinced he might bringher back, and even tried,

(14:01):
though without any success.
Meanwhile, his relationshipwith the community soured.
Though he'd long helpedneighbors with heavy labor, some
repaid him with mockery orunfairness, shorting his wages,
cheating him, or refusing toreturn borrowed tools.
Resentment slowly replaced hisonce quiet willingness to help.

Ashley (14:36):
By 1947, Ed's inner world turned darker.
That year, he began makingsecret night trips to local
graveyards.
Often, he'd wander among theheadstones, doing nothing, and
return home.
But other nights he acted.
Over the years, Ed admitted tomaking more than 40 nighttime
visits, and on at least nineoccasions, he dug up the newly

(14:59):
dead.
Always middle-aged women whoseobituaries he clipped from the
paper.
Ed later claimed these episodesfelt dreamlike, almost as if he
was in a trance.
When the urge came over him, hesaid he'd sometimes pray,
trying to fight it off, but notalways with success.
He insisted his interest indead bodies was scientific.

(15:22):
As a boy, he once dreamed ofbeing a doctor, and now he used
the bodies to study anatomyfirsthand.
He swore he never ate humanflesh and said he stopped grave
robbing by 1954.
Ed's methods were chillinglymethodical.
He probed the ground with ametal rod to test how recently a

(15:42):
grave had been filled.
Sometimes he exhumed entirebodies, other times he took only
the parts he wanted.
He preserved skin with oil tokeep it supple, discarded bones
and unwanted remains, andfashioned grotesque keepsakes.
He made masks from human facesand even assembled a full suit

(16:02):
of skin, wearing it around thefarmhouse and occasionally
outside on warm nights.
He sometimes felt guilty.
There were times he returnedstolen remains to their graves,
but the pattern, death,obsession, and desecration had
already taken hold.

Remi (16:41):
Mary herself was gone.
In the weeks that followed, EdGean didn't stay silent.
Around other men, when Mary'sdisappearance came up, he'd
sometimes crack a strange joke,saying she was over at his
place.
Everyone laughed it off becauseEd was the town oddball.
No one took him seriously,including his neighbor, Georgia

(17:03):
Foster, who recalled thefollowing story.

Georgia Foster (Ed's Neighbo (17:06):
In the wintertime it got kind of
boring in the afternoon, so I'dgo over there and sit with
whoever was attending the store.
And one day, Eddie Dean wasthere and Irene and we sat
around the stove and we rehashedwhat it might have happened to
uh Mary Hogan.
I had a brilliant idea, and Isaid to Irene, you know, I think
I know what happened to MaryHogan.
And she said, What?

(17:26):
And I said, Well, I think Eddieran off with her here.
I said, you know, he's such alady killer.
And uh he laughed and he said,Yeah, and yum yum, was she good?
And I said, Oh my god, Ed.

Remi (17:37):
Next came the whispers.
Kids claimed they'd seenshrunken heads at Ed's
farmhouse.
The story spread quickly, butlocals brushed it off as
harmless weirdness.
People figured Ed collected oddsouvenirs, maybe even bought
authentic shrunken heads fromthe Philippines.
To most in Plainfield, it wasjust another eccentric quirk of

(18:00):
the quiet, solitary man at theedge of town.

Ashley (18:04):
On the morning of November 16th, 1957, Ed Gean
left his farm and headed intoPlainfield.
Around 8 a.m., he stopped atWarden's hardware store, run by
58-year-old Bernice Warden.
Ed had been lingering theremore often lately, and just the
day before, he'd asked her sonFrank what time he'd be out

(18:25):
hunting on opening day.
That morning, after buying adrug of antifreeze, Ed shot
Bernice inside her store.
By afternoon, Frank came backfrom hunting and was surprised
to find the hardware storelocked since his mother planned
to keep it open all day.
He picked up the store key fromhome and walked into a grim
scene.
The floor was splattered withblood that trailed to the back

(18:48):
door, and the store's truck wasgone.
Frank called the police andimmediately named Ed Gean as a
suspect.
The clues lined up fast.
Ed had asked about antifreezeand store hours the day before,
and a receipt in Bernice'shandwriting showed she'd sold
antifreeze that very morning.
The police quickly found Ed ata neighbor's house.

(19:11):
When questioned, his words onlyraised suspicion.

Deputy Sheriff “Buck” (19:17):
Someone's freezing me.
What are you talking about?
What about it?
Well he's dead, isn't he?

Alfred Hitchcock (19:29):
How do you know that?

Remi (19:32):
Heard it.
Investigators quickly searchedGean's property.
An ash pile near the housetested positive for human
remains, charred teeth and bone.
A trench close by held morebones and a nearly complete
skeleton.
Investigators entered hisfarmhouse the day after his

(19:54):
arrest.
They started in an outbuildingand immediately uncovered
horror.
Bernice Warden's body hungupside down from the rafters.
She'd been decapitated andsplit open from neck to pelvis.
In this clip, Deputy SheriffVirgil Buck Batterman recounts
the experience of discoveringBernice's body.

Deputy Sheriff “Buck” Batter (20:17):
To see one of the well-known
people in Plainfield, well-likedperson in Plainfield hanging
there, upside down and uhdressed out like a deer, uh,
it's hard to explain how a manfeels when he sees something
like that.

Ashley (20:32):
Inside the house, the discoveries only grew more
grotesque.
A suit bowl carved from the topof a human skull, other skull
caps scattered casually about, apair mounted on his bedposts
like trophies, four kitchenchairs upholstered with human
skin and fat, lampshadesstitched from flesh, a garbage

(20:54):
can covered in hide, and even awindow shade pole decorated with
human lips.
In boxes and containers,investigators found more
remains, nine vulvas tucked intoa shoebox, four noses in
another, and an oatmeal boxstuffed with pieces of human
facial skin.
There were leggings sewn fromactual human legs, a vest made

(21:18):
from a women's upper torso, andnine masks, real faces, hair
still attached.
One of them belonged to MaryHogan.
The deeper they searched, themore body parts surfaced.
It became impossible to tellhow many victims were
represented.
Strangely, parts of the housewere immaculate.
Augusta's bedroom and the frontparlor were sealed off and

(21:42):
perfectly preserved, untouchedsince her death.
Everywhere else was chaos,filth, clutter, and unimaginable
relics of violence.
And even as the crime sceneteam worked, new, endlessly
horrifying evidence kept turningup in piles, leaving the small
community of Plainfield in astate of total disbelief.

Georgia Foster (Ed's Neighbor (22:03):
I ran across the street over to
Hills, and I rapped on the doorand I said to Irene, did you
hear about the murder inPlainfield?
And she said yes.
And and uh she told me who itwas then that it was Mrs.
Worden, and she said, You'llnever guess who they picked up
for it.
And I said, Well, no, who?
And uh she said, Well, EddieGeane, and we both kind of
laughed because we knew wewouldn't hurt a fly.

Remi (22:26):
After his arrest, Ed Gean was questioned off and on for
nearly twelve hours.
He had no lawyer and wasn'ttold his rights, yet he said
nothing at first.
It took thirty hours before hebroke his silence.
Ed admitted to killing BerniceWarden, but claimed he couldn't
remember the details, insistingit happened while he was in a

(22:49):
daze.
He swore she was the only womanhe'd ever killed, saying every
other body part found in hishome had come from graves.
What struck investigators washis calm demeanor.
There was no visible remorse,no real sense of the horror of
his actions, and Ed was polite,even friendly, cooperative, and

(23:12):
eager to please.
At one point, hematter-of-factly admitted to
holding severed female genitalsover his own body, trying to
imagine life as a woman.

Ashley (23:23):
When pressed about murder, though, Ed grew evasive.
Eventually, he confessed tokilling Mary Hogan as well.
But to the end of his life, heclaimed Bernice Warden's death
was an accident.
He later told his attorney he'dbeen treated well by
investigators.
No tricks, no intimidation.
In fact, he said talking tothem felt like it cleared his

(23:45):
mind.
Once formally charged withfirst degree murder, Ed finally
seemed to grasp the weight ofhis situation.
He entered a plea of notguilty, and later, not guilty by
reason of insanity.

Remi (23:58):
But there was one major question hanging over the case.
Could Ed really have robbed somany graves without anyone
noticing?
The DA doubted it at first, andresisted the idea of digging up
remains.
But eventually, to test Ed'sconfession, he agreed to exhume
two graves with the family'spermission.

(24:20):
If the first two checked outand matched Ed's story, they'd
stop from there.
If not, the whole account wouldunravel.
Investigators kept Ed's list ofeight or nine possible graves
mostly secret.
The first grave they exhumedwas that of a fifty-two-year-old
Eleanor Adams.
She was buried near the Geanfamily plot after her death in

(24:43):
August 1951.
When her coffin was opened, itscover was split apart and
inside was nothing but acrowbar, no body.
The second grave belonged to afifty-nine-year-old woman named
Mabel Everson, who died thatApril.
It showed the same grimevidence, broken coffin cover

(25:04):
and just a few scattered bones.
With those two exhumanationsconfirming Ed's story, the DA
halted further digs.
The disturbing truth of Ed'sgrave robbing was now
undeniable.
Prosecuting attorney RobertSutton would later make the
following statement.

Prosecutor, Robert Sutton (25:37):
And then he would go out that night
and dig up the particular body,take it back to his uh house,
and uh perform uh all kinds ofsurgical procedures on it.

Ashley (25:54):
Ed broke down in tears when police asked him about his
mother after his arrest.
He called Augusta a goddess,said she devoted her life to
saving him from the evils of theworld, yet he always failed
her.
To Ed, his mother wasinfallible.
Ed began to reflect as heawaited trial.
He told investigators thatloneliness after Augusta's death

(26:16):
drove him to the things he'ddone.
He also blamed an unsettlingmoment before her second stroke,
them seeing a strange womanleaving a neighbor's house.
In his mind, that encountersomehow triggered his mother's
death.
Ed consistently deniednecrophilia, though his actions
told a darker story.
He described his urges as anevil spirit invading his mind.

(26:41):
The first time he went to acemetery, he said, it was
because he believed he might beable to actually raise the dead.

The secret, gory life of little Ed Gean was now
exposed, and almost as gruesomewas the curiosity of a world
that had never witnessed suchunspeakable crimes.
Curiosity seekers would descendon a sleepy farm town that
would leave its mark onAmerica's conscience for
decades.

Remi (27:08):
The moment news of Ed Gean's arrest broke, Plainfield
was swarmed.
Reporters poured into the tinyWisconsin town, chasing every
dark rumor they could.
Stories flew about cannibalism,jars of human blood, even
claims that Ed handed outpackages of human meat to
unsuspecting neighbors.

(27:29):
As a result, the local clinicsaw a rush of people with sudden
stomach trouble.
Reporter Dan Henry Jr.
made the following statements.

Deputy Sheriff “Buck” Batterm (27:47):
A guy who would uh carve up a
woman, uh dress her out like adeer, hang her in a shed.
He's the role model forbasically all the wackos in the
world.

Ashley (27:58):
Journalists and investigators tried to link Ed
to every unsolved disappearancein Wisconsin over the last
decade, but he passed apolygraph test about those
cases, and no direct ties wereever found.
Just days after his arrest,once evidence had been cleared
out for the crime lab, the presswas allowed inside the
farmhouse.

(28:19):
A sheriff's deputy acted as atour guide, pointing out the
exact places investigators foundeach grotesque artifact.
By November 21st, 1957,headlines began framing Ed's
crimes as fueled by a twisteddevotion to his mother.
Articles claimed his victimsresembled Augusta.

(28:39):
They said Ed had long wanted tobe a woman and even considered
performing a sex changeoperation on himself.
Meanwhile, the farmhouse becamea grim attraction.
Police guarded the propertyaround the clock, but curious
cars rolled past constantly,hoping for a glimpse.

Fred Reid (29:19):
There was thousands of them.
The traffic was bumper tobumper, from plainfield out to
his house and back, and all thecrossroads, and you couldn't
believe it.

Remi (29:31):
National attention followed fast.
On December 2nd, Life magazineran a sprawling nine-page story.
Time followed with its ownfeature the following week.
After his arrest, Ed Gean waskept under heavy guard whenever
he was moved, especially on theway to court.

(29:51):
Once he entered a plea of notguilty by reason of insanity,
the judge ordered him to CentralState Hospital for a 30 day A
psychiatric evaluation.
Inside the hospital, Ed wasquiet and compliant.
He followed every rule andremained polite with the staff.
Occasionally, he admitted tohearing his mother's voice as he

(30:14):
drifted off to sleep, but therewere no signs of active
delusions or aggression.
Doctors diagnosed him withschizophrenia and found him
highly suggestible and unable tofully act in his own defense.
He was legally insane becausehe lived in a fantasy world and
couldn't reliably separate rightfrom wrong, even if he claimed

(30:36):
that he could.

Ashley (30:38):
From November 25th to December 18th, Ed underwent an
exhaustive battery of physicaland psychological tests.

The final recommendation (30:45):
he remained committed for ongoing
treatment.
On December 19th, doctorssubmitted their full psychiatric
report to the judge.
Ed had complained of strangesensations, at times saying he
could smell dead flesh when noone else could.
The psychological profilepainted a complex picture,

(31:06):
strong feminine identification,bizarre religious beliefs, deep
sexual immaturity, and atendency to project blame.
Doctors described him as havinga quote schizophrenic
personality with severalneurotic manifestations.
Ed was often confused,sometimes unsure if a memory was

(31:27):
his own or something he'd beentold.
He admitted he might havemarried if he'd ever found the
right woman, but one potentialpartner clashed with Augusta,
and another almost captured hisaffection until he learned she'd
been with other men.
Ed called his two victimsimmoral, rationalizing that he
might never have committed anycrimes if life had been

(31:49):
different, if he'd married, ifneighbors had treated him
better, or if he'd sold the farmand left Plainfield behind.
He confessed to feelingexcitement during grave
robberies, mixed with an oddsense of duty, as if the body
should be preserved and caredfor.
He maintained that BerniceWarden's death was an accident
and claimed to remember almostnothing about putting her body

(32:12):
in the truck.
But when it came to Augusta,his feelings were unwavering.
He described her as good inevery way and often broke down
when talking about her.
Memory lapses, he said, beganafter her death.
He described periods when theworld seemed unreal and admitted
that shortly after she died, hethought he could raise the

(32:32):
dead.
For a year or more, hesometimes heard her voice at
night urging him to be good.
About his father, though, Edhad nothing kind to say.

Remi (32:41):
At Central State Hospital, Ed seemed almost grateful for
the attention he was getting.
Unlike how he was handled inthe community, hospital staff
treated him with patience andprofessionalism.
Perhaps, for the first time inhis life, Ed felt respected.
On January 6, 1958, Ed appearedfor a formal sanity hearing.

(33:05):
The court ruled him incompetentto stand trial and ordered him
committed to Central StateHospital indefinitely.
If doctors ever decided he wasmentally fit, he would face
trial, but until then, Ed wouldremain locked away.
After his commitment, life inPlainfield and beyond moved on.

(33:27):
But fascination with Ed Geanstill lingered.
On March 20, 1958, the Geanfarmhouse mysteriously went up
in flames.
Many suspected someone in thecommunity torched it to keep
gawkers away and stop theplanned property auction from
happening on Palm Sunday.
It was presumed arson, but noevidence or suspect was ever

(33:52):
found.

Georgia Foster (Ed's Neighbor (33:54):
I am glad that the house burned
down, uh so that they there wasalways talk of uh somebody
buying it and making a house ofhorrors and charging money to go
through it.
And uh, I'm glad it's gone sothat uh that part was not
carried out.

Ashley (34:14):
Ed Gean reportedly didn't seem upset when he heard
the news either.
Despite the fire, the auctionwent ahead anyway.
On March 23rd, an estimated20,000 people poured into
Playingfield just to walk thegrounds and gawk at what
remained.
By the official sale date,March 30th, the crowd had
thinned to about 2,000.

(34:35):
Most just curious onlookerswith a handful of serious
bidders.

Remi (34:40):
One item drew special attention, Ed's 1949 Ford Sedan,
which sold for $760, which isthe equivalent of $8,200 today.
The buyer who won the biddingwar was a 50-year-old carnival
and sideshow exhibitor whoturned the car into a macabre

(35:01):
attraction.
He installed wax figuresinside, one posed as Ed behind
the wheel, another as amutilated victim in the back.
By July 1958, the Geen Ghoulcar was traveling to fairs as a
grisly roadside spectacle.
In the years after, newdiscoveries surfaced now and

(35:23):
then.
In May 1960, workers digging onthe property unearthed more
bones.
In December 1962, funds werefinally allocated for
Wisconsin's crime lab toproperly rebury the remains of
Ed's victims.

Ashley (35:39):
Inside Central State Hospital, Ed Gean settled into a
quiet routine.
Cut off from the outsideworld's obsession with his
crimes, no interviews wereallowed.
He seemed unaware of thepublic's fascination swirling
around his name.
By all accounts, Ed adjustedwell, maybe better than at any
other time in his life.
He was calm and cooperative,got along politely with other

(36:03):
patients, but mostly kept tohimself.
He spent hours reading andenjoyed regular therapy
sessions, occupationalactivities, and simple
handicraft work.
Staff described him as docile.
Still, some female employeesnoticed his lingering stares, a

(36:25):
quiet unease behind hisotherwise passive demeanor.

Remi (36:29):
Every six months, doctors re-evaluated his competency, but
doubted it would ever change.
Then, unexpectedly, in January1968, a court ruled Ed competent
to stand trial, though heremained officially diagnosed
with schizophrenia.
On January 22nd, 1968, Edappeared in public for the first

(36:54):
time in a decade.
Reporters watched as the oncefeared butcher of Plainfield
looked small and deeplyuncomfortable, shrinking under
the gaze of curious spectators.
In November 1968, Ed Geanfinally went on trial, a brief
one-week proceeding held withoutany jury.

(37:15):
The case began on November 7thand focused solely on the murder
of Bernice Warden.
On the stand, Ed repeated hislongstanding claim that he'd
shot Bernice accidentally.
He said he couldn't remembermoving her body from the store
or anything that happenedafterwards.

Ashley (37:34):
On November 14th, the judge found him guilty of
first-degree murder, but thetrial wasn't over.
The next step was deciding ifEd was legally insane at the
time of the crime.
That phase lasted only a fewhours.
The court concluded Ed lackedthe capacity to understand the
wrongfulness of his actions andcouldn't control his behavior at

(37:54):
the time of the crime and wastherefore not guilty by reason
of insanity.
Ed was recommitted to CentralState Hospital indefinitely.
He would remain in state careuntil doctors believed he was
both sane and no longerdangerous, a standard he would
never meet.
Before returning, the press wasbriefly allowed to see him.

(38:15):
He seemed relieved that thetrial was finished and was
looking forward to going back tothe hospital, a place he now
considered home.
Once again, he shifted blamefor his darkness outward, saying
people hadn't been as friendlyas they should have been.

Remi (38:31):
Over the years, Ed remained a model patient.
He worked steadily as acarpenter's helper, mason, and
hospital attendant, and savedhis modest wages in a personal
account.
In his free time, he watchedTV, listened to the radio, and
read.
He had freedom to move aboutthe hospital grounds, trusted

(38:52):
enough to roam the buildings,and even surrounding areas of
the property.
He remained quiet, kept mostlyto himself, and caused no
trouble at all.
Overall, he seemed content.
By February 1974, after morethan fifteen years in the
hospital, Ed Gean made asurprising move.

(39:14):
He filed a petition claiminghe'd fully recovered and should
be released.
His bid for freedom went beforethe court on June 7, 1974.
The first psychiatric experttestified that there were no
clear signs of severe mentalillness on the surface, but
warned something dangerous stillsimmered underneath.

(39:37):
The doctor advised againstrelease, but suggested maybe a
transfer to a less securehospital.

Ashley (39:44):
Two other experts strongly disagreed with even
that idea.
They said Ed's tolerance forstress had eroded over the
years.
He had no real social contact,not a single visitor since his
commitment, and he'd bepathetic, confused, and out of
place if released.
They believed he couldn'thandle day-to-day life, and
society's reaction to him wouldlikely be cruel.

(40:06):
Before the hearing started, Edbriefly spoke with the
reporters.
He was polite and soft-spoken,saying if he ever got out, he'd
probably move to a big city forwork.
No reason to return toPlainfield.

Remi (40:20):
In the end, the judge rejected Ed's petition.
Though he would have beeneligible for parole if not for
his insanity ruling, the verdictleft him where he'd been for
nearly two decades, committedindefinitely to Central State
Hospital.
In 1978, at 72 years old, Edwas quietly moved to the Mendota

(40:44):
Mental Health Institution inMadison, Wisconsin.
There, he lived out the rest ofhis days, largely forgotten by
the outside world.
On July 26, 1984, 78-year-oldEd died from cancer and
respiratory failure.
He was buried back inPlainfield Cemetery, the same

(41:06):
ground from which he'd stolen somany of his victims.
His grave went unmarked, adeliberate effort to keep it
from becoming a morbid sideshowattraction.

Ashley (41:18):
And that is the true story of Edward Geane.
And before we get into how hehas been portrayed in several
Hollywood films, Remy, what aresome of your thoughts about the
butcher of Plainfield, the ghoulEd Gean?

Remi (41:33):
He seemed like a very quiet, introverted, simple
little man who had some severemental problems, obviously, and
a morbid fascination with humananatomy and things like that.
I'm not a professional in a lotof these areas.
I cannot comment on like if hewas trying to become a woman or

(41:54):
if he was trying to become hismother or anything like that,
but clearly he was a person whowas not happy being himself.
But I do have a lot ofquestions as far as your
thoughts, Ashley, because youare the doctor in the room who
knows way more about this sortof thing than I ever could.

(42:15):
In fact, when we were goingover some of the information
from the trial, I'm pretty sureI heard you cough the word
bullshit under your breathduring a certain part.
Do you not agree with the notguilty by reason of insanity?

Ashley (42:30):
So I obviously did not evaluate Ed Gean, but from what
I have read about him, I do notthink he would meet the criteria
for guilty except for insanity.
It is such a high bar.
You have to basically provethat someone did not know that
what they were doing was wrong,or that they were incapable of

(42:52):
conforming their conduct to therequirements of the law.
Unable to do so, not justunwilling.
It seemed to me that when heshot and killed Bernice, he
moved her body.
He obviously knew murder wasillegal.
He kept quiet about it forquite some time.
And it doesn't seem to me thathe was incapable of not doing

(43:13):
so.
I don't know why he did it.
It's kind of seems thesemurders are just kind of like
out of the blue.
It's very unclear.

Remi (43:21):
That was one of my big lingering questions as well.
He seemed to kill these twopeople essentially out of
nowhere.
I know that Mary reminded himof his mother, but yeah, the
circumstances around it, itseems very random, very out of
the blue, and kind of out ofcharacter for Ed to have done

(43:41):
that sort of thing.
And I do want to point out thatthe definition of insanity that
Ashley is given is like thelegal definition of this.
I would say Ed is insane bywhat the public would view as
legally insane.
If you ask a normal person onthe street about Ed Gean and his
crimes, they will definitelysay that he is insane.

(44:02):
But under the legal definition,he does not qualify, believe it
or not.

Ashley (44:07):
In my opinion, they declared that he did, but things
were different back in the day.
But that's a very good point.
Insanity is actually a legalterm, it's not a psychological
term.
So yes, that is um a reallygood distinction to highlight
there.
I don't even know if from whatI've read or heard about him, if
I even think he meets criteriafor schizophrenia.
Like it seems to me that hejust became so isolated and just

(44:33):
in his own little world afterhis mom died, and he just became
engrossed with death anddestruction.

Remi (44:41):
It is unusual for someone suffering from schizophrenia for
the voice that is talking tothem, specifically coming from
someone who they knew who passedaway or something like that.
It's very rare that it's avoice that they know or have
heard before.

Ashley (44:57):
That would be more of like a grief and loss type
reaction.
And especially when he saystimes he hears her voice like
right before he's fallingasleep.
Having hallucinations like thatright before you're falling
asleep or right as you're wakingup is actually a very common
occurrence and not somethingthat's related to any sort of
psychotic thought process.

Remi (45:18):
So, what do you think his thought process was with what he
was doing to these corpses?
Do you think he was trying tomake a woman suit and become a
woman himself, or do you thinkhe was trying to become his
mother?
There's a lot of differentinterpretations to this.

Ashley (45:39):
I think I read somewhere that when he put the suit on,
he felt closer to her.
It seems to me that Ed Geen wasa very isolated person who
never formed any sort of healthyrelationship or attachment at
all, and was just completelyenmeshed with his mom.
And when she died, it was likepart of him died.

Remi (46:02):
Well, it is in our notes that she did always want a girl
and ended up with two sons.
Maybe it was a way of makinghim feel closer to her in some
capacity.
I don't know.
It's definitely a level ofcrazy that I have not a lot of
insights to at all.
But how about the things likemaking lampshades and chairs and

(46:26):
stuff like that?
What was that?

Ashley (46:29):
Well, you had said the Nazi wife had done that, right?

Remi (46:34):
Yes, Ilse Koch.

Ashley (46:37):
So I'm guessing that he maybe got that idea from his
research on her and decided totry it out and found it to be a
worthwhile hobby to do in hisendless amount of free time.

Remi (46:52):
I also wanted to highlight that apparently he didn't have
sex with these bodies either.
He was not a necrophiliac, buthe did keep parts of their
sexual anatomy in his house forI'm not sure what reasons.

Ashley (47:10):
I don't know.
This is a level ofpsychologically disturbed and
deranged that is above my paygrade.

Remi (47:19):
And pretty rare as well.

Ashley (47:21):
Yeah, I don't think there's very many Edgeans in
this world, and that'sdefinitely a good thing.

Remi (47:28):
But the story of Edgein didn't just haunt Wisconsin.
It also, of course, inspiredsome of the most iconic horror
stories ever told.

Ashley (48:16):
Block happened to be living about 40 miles from
Plainfield at the time of EdGeen's arrest.
What fascinated him most wasthe unsettling idea that a
ghoulish killer with grotesqueappetites could thrive almost
openly in a small ruralcommunity where everyone
believed they knew each other'ssecrets.
While shaping his next novel,Bloch faced a practical

(48:39):
challenge.
How could his shy, isolatedmurderer plausibly find victims?
It didn't make sense for such awithdrawn man to stalk
strangers.
The answer became the book'sdefining hook.
The killer would own a lonelyrundown motel, and the victims
would come to him.

Remi (48:58):
Block had released the novel just two years after Ed
Geane's arrest.
He later said he hadn't knownabout Geane's crimes when he
began writing, only that he'dbeen fascinated by the idea that
the man next door might be amonster, unsuspected even in the
gossip-ridden world of a smalltown.

(49:19):
By the time Geane's storybroke, Bloch claimed the book
was nearly finished and addedjust a single passing reference
to the case in one of the finalchapters.
Despite the timing, he deniedthat Ed Gean was a direct model
for Norman Bates, but NormaBates definitely has a shadow of

(49:40):
Augusta Gean.
Block's novel, titled Psycho,was released in 1959, and just
one year later came AlfredHitchcock's legendary film
adaptation.

Alfred Hitchcock (49:54):
Good afternoon.
Here we have a quiet littlemotel tucked away off the main
highway.
And as you see, perfectlyharmless looking.
When in fact, it has now becomeknown as the scene of the

(50:18):
crime.

Ashley (50:21):
It was Hitchcock's trusted assistant Peggy
Robertson who first spottedPsycho.
She read a glowing New YorkTimes review of Robert Bloch's
novel and brought it toHitchcock's attention.
Studio executives at Paramounthad already dismissed the idea,
finding the story too dark andunsellable.
But Hitchcock ignored them.
He quietly bought the filmrights himself for just $9,500

(50:45):
and instructed Robertson totrack down and purchase as many
copies of the book as possibleto keep the twist secret.
At the time, Hitchcock wassearching for new material after
two stalled projects, FlamingoFeather and No Bail for the
Judge, and was frustrated withrising star salaries.
Only a small trusted circle,including Robertson, helped him

(51:08):
choose what to develop next.

Remi (51:10):
The psycho screenplay stayed fairly close to Robert
Bloch's novel, but with some keychanges.
In the book, Norman Bates is amiddle-aged, overweight man,
unstable, alcoholic, and proneto slipping into his mother
personality during drunkenblackouts.
The film stripped away thealcoholism, as well as Norman's

(51:35):
involvement with the occult,spiritualism, and pornography.
Hitchcock also dialed back theviolence.
In Block's version, the showerscene ends with Marion being
decapitated.
When he pitched Psycho,Paramount refused to give him
his usual big budget, soHitchcock countered with a

(51:56):
daring plan.
He'd shoot the movie, fast andcheap, in black and white, using
the small, efficient crew fromhis TV series, Alfred Hitchcock
presents.
Paramount still pushed backthough, saying their sound
stages were fully booked, thoughthe industry was in a slump and
there was plenty of space,empty.

(52:18):
Undeterred, Hitchcock offeredto finance Psycho himself and
shoot it at Universal's lot withhis own team, if Paramount
would simply agree to distributethe film.
In place of his usual quarterof a million dollars directing
fee, he proposed taking 60% ofthe profits.
Paramount agreed, and it was adecision that would end up

(52:42):
rewriting box office history.

Ashley (52:45):
Psycho features a powerhouse cast.
Anthony Perkins as thereclusive Norman Bates, Janet
Lee as a runaway embezzler,Marion Crane, along with Vera
Miles, John Gavin, and MartinBalsam.
The story pivots on Marion'sfateful stop at the Lonely Bates
Motel, where she meets the shyyoung proprietor and his deeply

(53:07):
troubled mother.

Psycho (clip) (53:10):
Of course, I've suggested it myself.
But I hate to even think aboutit.
It's not as if you were amaniac, a raving thing.
We all go a little madsometimes.

(53:37):
Haven't you?

Ashley (53:43):
The film premiered on June 16th, 1960, at New York
City's De Mile and BaronotTheaters.
It broke new ground in howmovies were shown.
For the first time in U.S.
theaters, audience were told noone would be admitted after the
film started.
A move designed to preserve itsshocking secrets.

Remi (54:03):
When Psycho first hit theaters, critics were split.
Its shocking violence and taboosubject matter made some
recoil, but audiences justcouldn't stay away.
The film became a box officephenomenon, earning $50 million
worldwide on a budget of just$806,000, and when adjusted for

(54:27):
inflation, Psycho made $385million by today's standards.
Its runaway success forcedcritics to take another look,
sparking a major re-evaluationof Hitchcock's work.
The movie went on to earn fourAcademy Award nominations,
including Best Director forAlfred Hitchcock and Best

(54:50):
Supporting Actress for JanetLee.

Ashley (54:52):
Today Psycho is considered one of Hitchcock's
masterpieces, and arguably hismost famous, most studied, and
most influential film.
Scholars praise its precision,the sleek direction,
nerve-wracking tension, strikingcamera work, unforgettable
score, and iconic performances.
It's been called the mostheavily analyzed film in the

(55:14):
long career of the mostinvestigated director in the
history of American film.
Psycho pushed boundaries forviolence, deviant psychology,
and sexuality on screen, pavingthe way for the modern slasher
genre.
After Hitchcock's death in1980, the story kept going with
sequels, a remake, andtelevision spin-offs.

(55:34):
And in 1992, the Library ofCongress added Psycho to the
National Film Registry for beingculturally, historically, or
aesthetically significant.

Remi (55:45):
In 2012, the story behind Psycho itself became a movie
starring Anthony Hopkins asAlfred Hitchcock and Michael
Wincott as Ed Gean.
The biographical drama, titledHitchcock, was directed by Sasha
Gervassi and based on StephenRabello's book Alfred Hitchcock

(56:06):
and the Making of Psycho, andexplores the legendary
director's life during thecreation of his most shocking
film.
Norman Bates returned to thescreen again in the form of
Bates Motel, a modern-daytelevision prequel to Psycho,
which was developed by CarltonCruz, Carrie Erin, and Anthony

(56:26):
Capriano.
The series starred Vera Firmigaas Norma Bates and Freddie
Hymore as young Norman, andcontinued to explore the
twisted, codependent bondbetween mother and son long
before the infamous showerscene.
It ran for five seasons from2013 to 2017 and reintroduced

(56:48):
the Bates family to a whole newgeneration of viewers.
Now, I never watched the BatesMotel TV show, but you did,
Ashley.
Is there any insight you haveonto Norman Bates' backstory?
I'm assuming it explored it alot more in detail with that
many seasons.

Ashley (57:08):
It's been a long time since I watched it.
I think I watched it as it wason TV, so I don't really
remember much about it.
I do remember the two maincharacters, and also he does
have a love interest in it, whoNorma has a complicated
relationship with.
Sometimes she likes her,sometimes she doesn't.
But really the main takeaway isthat Norma was portrayed as a

(57:29):
very domineering mom over herson.
And he is portrayed as someonewho has mental health issues
very early on in his life.

Remi (57:37):
Did you ever see the shot-for-shot remake from 1998
starring Vince Vaughn as NormanBates and Anne Haish as Marion,
directed by Gus Van Sant?

Ashley (57:49):
I was going to say no, but I do remember Anne Haish as
Marion.
So yes, yes, I did.

Remi (57:55):
It is a shot-for-shot remake, and we just watched the
film Psycho the other night inpreparation for this episode,
and I remembered theshot-for-shot remake, but there
were definitely some changesmade there.
Specifically a scene whereMarion is getting ready to go in
the shower and Norman is spyingon her from a peephole in the

(58:16):
other room.
In the Hitchcock version, he isjust watching her, and in the
Gus Van Sant version, he ismasturbating.
So that is a key differencethere.

Ashley (58:26):
So as you said, we did watch all three of the movies
we're gonna discuss in thesenext upcoming sections.
Why don't you give ouraudiences who haven't seen
Psycho a just very down anddirty rundown?

Remi (58:38):
Well, surprisingly, most of the beginning of the movie
focuses on a woman named MarionCrane, played by Janet Lee, who
is a secretary who impulsivelydecides to steal a $40,000 down
payment from one of heremployer's clients for seemingly

(59:00):
no reason whatsoever.
I remember we were watchingthis and just kept saying out
loud, why did she do this?
It just seems like she did thisfor nothing.

Ashley (59:11):
And adjusted for inflation, that's $400,030.
That is just so much money toimpulsively take from your
employer who you've worked forfor a decade.

Remi (59:22):
And she was definitely gonna get caught.
The money was given to her,like there was a million things
that would point to her.
She would have to leave townand start an entirely new life.
For whatever reason, when Ifirst saw this film, I thought
she stole the money so that shecould start a new life with the
guy that she was with at thebeginning of the film.
But no, she just took thismoney and decided to skip town

(59:45):
on impulse one day.
And eventually, because shegets tired and it starts
raining, she stops at the BatesMotel and meets the proprietor
of said hotel, Mr.
Norman Bates.
Bates, played by AnthonyPerkins, whose son is Osgood
Perkins, who directed Long Legsand the Monkey.

Ashley (01:00:08):
That is a fun little fact.
For those of you who don't knowwho Osgood Perkins is, he's
also the kind of awkward guyfrom Legally Blonde.

Remi (01:00:17):
I'm so glad you highlighted that.
That was in my notes, but Itook it out in hopes that you
would say something about it.

Ashley (01:00:24):
After that, Marion has, you know, some nice pleasantries
with Norman until he brutallystabs her to death in the
shower.
And that's about halfwaythrough the movie.
The rest of it is aninvestigation into her
disappearance featuring Marion'ssister and her lover, and also
a private investigator.

(01:00:44):
One thing I do remember fromthis movie or hearing about it
after was that everyone wasshocked that the main title
character was killed halfwaythrough.
I remember hearing in aphilosophy of film class that I
took in college that that reallyjust blew audiences away.

Remi (01:01:03):
Hitchcock was the first to pull off the whole killing the
main character halfway throughthing to throw the audience off,
essentially.
It's been done many timesnowadays.
The first thing I can think ofis Ned Stark in the first season
of Game of Thrones, spoileralert.
But yeah, people were notexpecting it.

(01:01:24):
She was highlighted as the starof this film, and people were
not expecting her to die beforethe halfway point, basically, in
such a horrific way.
Hitchcock actually added moreedits to the shower scene to
increase the tension and shock.
That sort of thing wasn't done.
It was lots of long shots andthat sort of thing, and he was

(01:01:45):
one of the first to add a bunchof quick shots, and you never
really see anything happening inthe scene, but just the
implication of what's happeningis enough to get in your head.
And another fun fact about thatis because Hitchcock was
filming in black and white, heused chocolate for all of the
blood in the film.

(01:02:06):
So the swirling blood goingdown the drain in the scene is
actually just some chocolatesyrup.

Ashley (01:02:12):
I also wonder if he was one of the first to have the
villain in the movie drink milk,because I did note that Norrin
Bates drinks a nice big oldglass of milk at one point.

Remi (01:02:24):
One other little random bit of trivia is Norman's
mother, whose voice is heardthroughout the film, was
actually done by three differentactresses: Virginia Gregg,
Janet Nolan, and Paul Jasmine.
So each time it's speaking, itsounds slightly different, just
to kind of unsettle theaudience.
So very cool, but I think thebig thing we need to discuss is

(01:02:48):
Norman Bates, the killer in thisfilm who took inspiration from
Ed Gean.
Now, according to the film andmy research, Norman grew up
isolated with an abusivecontrolling mother, Norma Bates.
Norman, Norma, what it's likeWill and Willow.
Norma Bates taught him that sexwith other women was sinful.

(01:03:10):
When Norma got a lover, Normanbecame jealous and poisoned them
both, killing her, and wasunable to cope with the loss.
He preserved her corpse anddeveloped a split personality,
sometimes being Norman and othertimes being his mother.
And he would literally act outscenes to the point where other

(01:03:32):
people could overhear himimpersonating his mother's
voice, going back and forth andarguing.
Like pretty far away, he was inthe house up the hill, and
someone down in the motel couldhear Norma and Norman arguing,
which was just Norman arguingwith himself.
When Norma takes over, Normankills people, especially ones

(01:03:52):
that he's attracted to, in orderto protect his mother's place
in his life.
The film, of course, picks upwith Norman running the Bates
Motel and living with thepreserved corpse of his dead
mother.
After Norman is caught, hismother's personality takes over
completely, and Norman basicallyfades into his own

(01:04:13):
subconsciousness.
In the end, Norman kills fourpeople total, Marion, the
detective, and two other girlsthat are not seen on screen, and
just sort of ditches theevidence, including their car
and bodies, in a handy-dandyswamp that's behind his motel.
I thought it was an oil pit atfirst or like a sand pit.

(01:04:36):
And we did discuss how deep isthis pit.
He definitely has thrown a lotof cars in there at this point,
but he hasn't had any issues.

Ashley (01:04:44):
Well, what are some of the main similarities that you
notice between Ed Gean andNorman Bates?
And we'll kind of go back andforth in this.

Remi (01:04:52):
Definitely his relationship with his mother.
I think out of all the threefilms we watched for this, that
this closely mirrors Ed'srelationship with his own
mother.
She was demanding, controlling,and he would hear her inside
his own head.
And I feel like that aspect ofit was really represented well

(01:05:14):
in this film.

Ashley (01:05:16):
And after Norma dies in the movie, Norman is pretending
to be her caretaker, saying thatshe's sick, which Edgein did
care for his mom after she hadthe strokes.
Even though Edgein didn'tremove his mother's corpse from
the grave, he did treat it.
And Norman mentions doing thatat one point and even preserves

(01:05:38):
her room after her death.

Remi (01:05:40):
The relationship is the big thing that stands out.
They both led a reclusive,secluded, isolated life.
But beyond that, they do seemlike very different characters
to me.
Do you have more, Ashley?

Ashley (01:05:55):
I do have a several other similarities that I
noticed that aren't as glaringas the relationship between
Norman and his mom.
But first, going off on Marion,she really represents the type
of woman that Augusta would havehated and warned her sons
about.
She is having a premaritalrelationship with him.
She steals money from heremployer.

Remi (01:06:17):
And he obviously is lusting after her, and that's
what triggers the mother takingover in that situation.

Ashley (01:06:24):
Also, interestingly, her partner actually works at a
hardware store, and that justreminded me of the hardware
store that Bernice Warden waskilled at.

Remi (01:06:34):
I did not catch that.
I remember taking a note thatNorman has a lot of taxidermied
birds around his office at theBates Motel and his home.
But as far as we know, Ed Geanwas not into taxidermy.
There were not like taxidermiedanimals found around his house
or anything like that.

Ashley (01:06:53):
I viewed that as Norman is obsessed with taxidermy, and
that kind of mirrors Edgeen'sobsession with the grotesque and
the macabre.

Remi (01:07:02):
See, the film student in me immediately thought that it
was Hitchcock giving a clue thathe would be making a film
called The Birds somewhere downthe line.
He was notorious for planningout a lot of his films in
advance, like many of theautours today.
But yeah, other than that, Ihad no real thought as to why he
would include that.

Ashley (01:07:23):
We also see that after each time Norman kills someone,
he really goes through thismeticulous routine of cleaning
up the scene, disposing of allof the evidence.
And I linked that to Ed'smeticulous routine of grave
robbing, him probing the groundand just having this routine
that he went through every timehe committed his crimes at the
graveyard.

Remi (01:07:44):
But he did not do that when he actually murdered
people.
I think at both crime scenesfor the two women that he
killed, there was literally asmear of blood as if he just
dragged the corpse out that wasstill there when witnesses
showed up the next day.
So he may have been moremeticulous in grave robbing than

(01:08:05):
he was in murder.

Ashley (01:08:07):
And my last two similarities that I noticed were
Norman dressing up as mother isa way that he becomes her.
And I viewed that as Ed Geenwearing the women's suit as a
way to become closer to hismother.
And in the end, it is heavily,heavily, heavily implied that

(01:08:28):
Norman is going to be found notguilty by reason of insanity.

Remi (01:08:33):
And they do include the he wouldn't hurt a fly line at the
very end of the film as well,which seems to have been a
sentiment repeated about Geen bythe people he knew very often,
surprisingly.

Ashley (01:08:47):
And at one point when he's talking about his mom, he
has this great quote of she justgoes a little mad sometimes.
We all go a little madsometimes.
And that kind of just remindedme of how Ed described his
irresistible impulse to robthese graves.

Remi (01:09:03):
And of course, is one of the most iconic lines in the
film.

Ashley (01:09:08):
Well, what about differences?
Because that's a lot ofsimilarities, but there is
obviously striking differenceshere between Norman and Ed.

Remi (01:09:16):
There are a lot of differences.
Ed, of course, didn't own ahotel.
He did not preserve hismother's corpse and keep it in
his home.
And Norman killed four people,and Ed killed two.
So there is a lot ofdifferences in that regard.
From everything I've learned, Idon't think Ed was dressing in

(01:09:37):
his mother's clothing andpretending to be her.
He may have been wearing otherpeople's skin and doing that,
but of course, Psycho cannotshow that sort of thing,
especially at the time of itsrelease.
So a lot of the gruesomedetails are also absent from the
film Psycho.
But what do you have, Ashley?

Ashley (01:09:56):
He also kills with a knife, not a shotgun, and only
when he's mother, not as he'sEd.

Remi (01:10:02):
And always disposes of the bodies.

Ashley (01:10:04):
There's also clear differences between their
appearance.
Anthony Perkins is anattractive younger man.
And at least initially, untilhe kind of starts to unravel a
bit when he's first interactingwith Marion, he seems charming
and comfortable around her.
He clearly turns into a prettybig weirdo, but initially he
seemed just like a normal, nicedude.

Remi (01:10:27):
He seemed desperate to talk to someone, at least that's
how I perceived theperformance.
And he seemed kind of gratefulto have someone to talk to.
He brought her dinner.
He made a sandwich for her.
He seemed to be pretty happythat there was someone around,
other than the corpse of hisdead mother yelling at him from
the house above.

Ashley (01:10:47):
And I guess that could actually be a similarity to how
Ed was with his neighbors.

Remi (01:10:51):
Yeah, his neighbors all found him extremely nice and
sociable, if not a little weird.
And of course, Norman comes offas a little weird, but I
wouldn't say concerningly weird.
If I met someone like Norman, Imay think he was odd, but I
don't know if I would think hewas dangerous.

Ashley (01:11:07):
Well, that's just one Hollywood adaptation that took
inspiration from Ed Gean.
The next film features a killerwho comes off right away as
much more sinister.
Part-time as an assistant filmdirector, part-time as a

(01:11:54):
documentary cameraman.
He'd already been developing astory seeped in isolation, deep
woods, and darkness.
Hooper later said the rawgraphic crime coverage coming
out of San Antonio's newsroomsat the time pushed him further
toward horror.
And woven into his plot werechilling threads from real-life
details inspired by Wisconsinmurderer Ed Gean.

Remi (01:12:18):
Toby Hooper said the cultural and political climate
of the early 1970s shaped theTexas Chainsaw Massacre as much
as anything else.
Audiences were already uneasy.
Vietnam, political scandals,and violent crime dominated
headlines.
And Hooper wanted to tap intothat feeling.

The Texas Chainsaw Massa (01:12:40):
That's why the film famously opens

with the line (01:12:42):
The film which you are about to see is an
account of the tragedy whichbefell a group of five youths,
in particular, Sally Hardestyand her invalid brother
Franklin.
It is all the more tragic inthat they were young.
But had they lived very, verylong lives, they could not have

(01:13:02):
expected, nor would they havewished to see as much of the mad
and macabre as they were to seethat day.
For them, an idyllic summerafternoon drive became a
nightmare.
The events of that day were tolead to the discovery of one of
the most bizarre crimes in theannals of American history.
The Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

Remi (01:13:24):
Hooper admitted that this was deliberate misinformation,
his way of reflecting how, atthe time, he felt Americans were
constantly being misled.
So he turned that distrust intohorror, making viewers feel
like what they were about to seecould actually be real.
One specific detail Hooper tookinspiration from was Gean's

(01:13:49):
grotesque habit of crafting andwearing masks of human skin.
That image became a central,terrifying visual in his
screenplay.

Ashley (01:14:00):
Toby Hooper made the Texas Chainsaw Massacre on a
shoestring budget, just under$140,000, which is about
$700,000 today.
He cast mostly unknown localactors from Central Texas and
shot the entire film on locationthere.
And I will say, this movie doesnot feel like a low-budget

(01:14:20):
horror.

Remi (01:14:21):
The cinematography is outstanding in this film, and it
does a real brilliant job ofcapturing the mood and the
feeling of being there in thatsituation.

Ashley (01:14:34):
Getting the film to audiences, however, proved
harder.
Because of its brutal subjectmatter, Hooper struggled to find
a distributor until BrainstonDistributing Company finally
picked it up.
Ironically, Hooper had tried totone things down, limiting
visible gore and hoping for a PGrating, but the Motion Picture

(01:14:55):
Association of America stillgave it an R.
I don't know what planet he wason thinking this would get PG.

Remi (01:15:02):
Well, PG-13 did not exist at the time.
PG-13 was not invented untilthe 1980s, so if it didn't get
an R, the Texas ChainsawMassacre would have been rated
PG.

Ashley (01:15:15):
Internationally, the film ran into even more trouble.
Several countries banned itoutright.
And in the US, some theaterspulled the movie after
complaints about its violence.
Despite all that pushback, theTexas Chainsaw Massacre went on
to become one of the mostinfluential horror films ever
made.

Remi (01:16:01):
When the Texas Chainsaw Massacre hit theaters, critics
were once again divided.
Some dismissed it as cheapexploitation, while others
recognized its raw power.
But audiences showed up.
The film was a runaway success,grossing over 30 million at the

(01:16:21):
US box office, the equivalentof $150 million today.
It also sold more than 16million tickets in 1974 alone.
Over time, its reputation onlygrew.
Today it's considered one ofthe most important and
influential horror films evermade.

(01:16:43):
It helped define the modernslasher, the hulking masked
killer, power tools turned intoweapons, and the enduring trope
of the final girl, who is thelast survivor facing the
monster.
Its legacy has stretched fordecades, spawning a long-running
franchise of sequels, prequels,remakes, comics, and even video

(01:17:06):
games.
In 2024, the Library ofCongress recognized the film's
cultural impact, adding theTexas Chainsaw Massacre to the
National Film Registry asculturally, historically, or
aesthetically significant.
I'm sensing a pattern here.
But this is another film thatwe watched the other night.

(01:17:27):
Ashley, do you have any firstthoughts on the Texas Chainsaw
Massacre?
I know this was the first timeyou had seen the film.

Ashley (01:17:37):
I was kind of dreading this one.
I thought it was going to justfeel old and kind of like how
you've talked about the townthat dreaded sundown, just bad
and just kind of a cheap BChorror movie.

Remi (01:17:50):
This is definitely not the town that dreaded sundown.

Ashley (01:17:54):
And I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it.
It's really not gory at all.
They do a lot of cutaway shots.
It's surprisingly for beinglike a first-time director and
how low budget this is with allunknown actors.
It is so good.
It is really aestheticallypleasing to look at, even though
like everything that'shappening is grotesque.

(01:18:15):
I really enjoyed the film.

Remi (01:18:18):
I have seen this film many, many times.
I am a fan of the TexasChainsaw Massacre, at least the
original one.
I have seen some of the otherones.
I've seen the remakes that wereproduced by Michael Bay.
I haven't seen the newer ones.
In fact, there are a total ofnine feature films in the Texas
Chainsaw Massacre franchise todate.

(01:18:39):
And I was telling Ashley theother day about one of them
called the Texas ChainsawMassacre, The Next Generation,
which was made in 1995, andstars Matthew McConaughey and
Renee Zellwigger, believe it ornot.
And you were initiallyinterested, and then I think you
just saw the poster for thefilm and said, nah, I think I'll

(01:19:01):
skip this one.

Ashley (01:19:03):
Yeah, it's like lips holding up a lipstick, but the
lipstick is a mini chainsaw, andI was just like, no, not doing
it.

Remi (01:19:11):
It is not a good film.
I think the only reason I eversaw it was because Matthew
McConaughey and Renee Zellwiggerwere in it.
There's a lot of really badTexas chainsaw prequels and
sequels and things like that.
But I do know that ReneeZellwigger and Matthew
McConaughey actually filmed thatbefore their careers hit it

(01:19:31):
big, and the production companyjust sort of sat on it.
And after they becamesuccessful, that's when they
decided to release it to kind ofcapitalize on their names and
success.
But what about this film?
This film starts off with thepolice discovering a house of
horrors type thing full of bonesand crosses and graves and

(01:19:53):
bodies and that sort of thing,and are taking photographs of
it, which was the creepy soundthat is synonymous with the
Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

Ashley (01:20:03):
And then for the rest of the film, we follow a group of
five teenagers who are on a roadtrip because one of the girl's
relatives might have had hergrave robbed.
Seems like there was a stringof grave robberies, and those
were being investigated.
So they all pile in a car andgo to find out if their poor,

(01:20:24):
poor relative was among one ofthe victims.

Remi (01:20:27):
There is some audio of a radio newscast announcing that
there's been a string of graverobbings in the area.
And this is probably where alot of the similarities in this
film and Ed Geen kind of startand end.
This was the first thing thathappened that we kind of looked
at each other and immediatelythought gean.

Ashley (01:20:50):
After that, our teens take a little detour to a
abandoned farmhouse that one oftheir family members owned.
They get separated, they're outof gas, so they go try to find
gas.
And then Leatherface slowlystarts picking them off one by
one.

Remi (01:21:09):
For seemingly trespassing in his home, all of these teens
just wander into Leatherface'shome.
He's downstairs in his homemadebutcher shop, and all of these
teens just keep wandering in.
If I were a teenager, I wouldnot wander into this random
house that I came upon whilevisiting a friend's dilapidated
abandoned home.

Ashley (01:21:30):
Yeah, it's really only the final girl that he chases
after at any point.

Remi (01:21:34):
Yeah, the other people don't really have any chance at
all.
They start wandering throughthe home, and Leatherface shows
up from basically behind a wall,grabs them, and takes them into
his butcher shop.
He hangs one girl on a meathook at one point, and he bashes
two guys in the head with amallet.
And later on he uses hischainsaw against the final

(01:21:58):
girl's brother named Franklin,who is in a wheelchair and has a
hell of a time getting aroundin the wheelchair throughout the
entire film.
And is also a really, really,really annoying character.

Ashley (01:22:11):
Did you see any other similarities other than the
grave robbing between Ed Geenand Leatherface?

Remi (01:22:17):
Well, of course, the human skin mask.
I think that is the biggesttakeaway from Edgean that this
film took.

Ashley (01:22:26):
He also has a light fixture above the kitchen table
that is clearly made out ofskin.

Remi (01:22:32):
And Leatherface has a lot of random scattered bones around
the house.
He has a couch made of bones.
He also has a chicken in abirdcage for some reason.
And his house is just coveredin feathers, like a lot of
feathers.

Ashley (01:22:49):
There's also a meat hook that one of the victims is hung
up on at one point that kind ofreminded me of Bernice Warden
when they found her.
She was hanging.

Remi (01:22:58):
But I don't think she was hanging by a meat hook.
I actually don't know the exactdetails of that aspect.
But from my standpoint, itseems like a lot of minor things
were taken from Ed in order toincorporate them into
Leatherface.
Leatherface is very big.
He is a hulking monster whowields a chainsaw.

(01:23:20):
In fact, he is one of the firston-screen killers ever to use a
power tool to murder hisvictims.
He seems like he can't talk.
He almost seems like he ismentally handicapped to the
point where he can't speak.
There is, of course, thecannibalism aspect, and he is
living with people.
He is not isolated.
He's living with his family.

(01:23:40):
So it seems like it's a lot ofsurface-level things that were
taken.
There's more in that newsbroadcast at the beginning of
the film than there is in therest of the film.

Ashley (01:23:50):
Well, and even with that, the person who's been
robbing the graves is hisbrother or whoever that
hitchhiker is, and howeverthey're related to Leatherface.
It's not even Leatherface.

Remi (01:23:59):
And there does not seem to be any sort of mother aspect to
Leatherface at all.
In fact, it seems like there ismore of a grandpa situation
going on in this.
They bring him down for thetraumatizing dinner at one
point.
And you thought he was deadalready, but he's a very
decrepit, corpse-looking oldman.

Ashley (01:24:20):
I thought he was dead until he did one little like
gasp at one point.
I was like, oh, that's anactual person.
It does not look like an actualperson.

Remi (01:24:28):
Yeah, he like doesn't have eyes.
They're just blackness wherehis eyes are.
It looks like someone in amask, but it looks really
creepy.
But yeah, the mother aspect iscompletely absent.
There was a grandmother, Ithink, with the grandfather who
was a preserved corpse of somesort, but she was far less
focused on in the film.

Ashley (01:24:50):
Well, with that, we got one more film to discuss, and
I'm sure it's one that mostpeople will be at least somewhat
familiar with Silence of theLands began as a 1988 novel by

(01:25:24):
Thomas Harris.
The second in his series ofsuspense novels about the
brilliant and terrifyingHannibal Lecter.
The first book, Red Dragon, hadalready been adapted into
Michael Band's 1986 filmManhunter.
In both Thomas Harris'soriginal novel and the 1991 film
adaptation, the central villainis James Gum, better known by

(01:25:48):
his chilling nickname BuffaloBill.
A serial killer who kidnaps andmurders women, then skins their
bodies to graft a grotesquewomen suit, part of his
obsessive desire to transformhimself.

Remi (01:26:02):
Thomas Harris built Buffalo Bill's terrifying
methods by blending traits fromthree real-life killers.
From Ed Geane came the mostgrotesque details, fashioning
trophies and keepsakes from theskin and bone of corpses he
exhumed, along with two women hemurdered.
Geane even created masks and afull skin suit, of course.

(01:26:26):
From Ted Bundy, Harris borrowedthe killer's manipulative
charm.
Bundy would fake injuries,wearing an arm brace or using
crutches, in order to lure womenclose enough so that he could
overpower them.
And finally, from Gary Heidickcame the idea of captivity and

(01:26:46):
horror.
Heidnick kidnapped, raped, andtortured six women, keeping them
imprisoned in a basement pitwhere two died.
The role of Buffalo Bill wasbrought to life by actor Ted
Levine in 1991 for the cinematicadaptation of The Silence of
the Lambs, whose unsettlingperformance became one of

(01:27:09):
horror's most infamousportrayals.

Psycho (clip) (01:27:13):
It rubs the lotion on its skin.
It does this whenever it'stold.

Hard Copy News (01:27:18):
Mr.
My Family will pay cash.
Whatever ransom you're askingfor, they'll pay it.

Psycho (clip) (01:27:24):
It rubs the lotion on its skin, or else it
gets the hose again.

Ashley (01:27:43):
The film also stars Jodie Foster as Clarice
Starling, the young FBI traineeon the hunt for a Buffalo Bill,
who must turn to the brilliantpsychiatrist and cannibalistic
killer Hannibal Lecter,portrayed by Anthony Hopkins as
she's seeking insights to helpfind the murderer.
The Silence of the Lambspremiered on February 14th,

(01:28:04):
1991.
Happy Valentine's Day andbecame an unexpected
blockbuster.
Made for just 19 million, itwent on to gross $272.7 million
worldwide, finishing as thefifth highest grossing film of
the year.
Its festival debut came at the41st Berlin International Film

(01:28:26):
Festival, where directorJonathan Demi won the Silver
Bear for Best Director.

Remi (01:28:32):
Then came Oscar Night.
At the 64th Academy Awards, theSilence of the Lambs swept the
big five Best Picture, BestDirector, Best Actor, Best
Actress, and Best AdaptedScreenplay.
It's still one of the onlyquote-unquote horror films ever

(01:28:54):
to win Best Picture.
I personally consider it alittle more of a thriller.
Over the years, the movie'sreputation has only grown.
Critics and filmmakersroutinely call it one of the
greatest and most influentialfilms ever made.
The American Film Institutionplaced it 65th amongst the best

(01:29:16):
US films and named ClariceStarling one of cinema's
greatest heroines, whileHannibal Lecter remains one of
its most iconic villains.
And keeping up the trend here,in 2011, the Library of Congress
added the film to the NationalFilm Registry for being

(01:29:37):
culturally, historically, oraesthetically significant.

Ashley (01:29:41):
But the film isn't without controversy.
Some have criticized itsportrayal of gender identity
through Buffalo Bill, arguing itperpetuates harmful
stereotypes.
Director Jonathan Demy defendedthe work, clarifying the
character was never meant torepresent transgender identity.
The film's Impact Indoors, itlaunched a full franchise: the

(01:30:04):
sequel Hannibal in 2001,prequels Red Dragon in 2002, and
Hannibal Rising in 2007, plustwo television adaptations.
And it continues to influencethrillers and horror
storytelling to this day.

Remi (01:30:19):
And just like the others, we watched this film the other
night to refresh our memories.
I've seen this film dozens oftimes by this point.
I could probably quote certainscenes word for word.
Do you have any initialimpressions from watching the
film recently, Ashley?

Ashley (01:30:39):
Yeah, I feel like watching this time, I don't know
if it's because I was kind ofup and making dinner while it
was going on, but I becameconfused at several points.
Like I missed how she found outwhere Buffalo Bill was.
There was a couple other likeplot points that I'm just like,
wait, how did we get here?

Remi (01:30:57):
I totally agree.
There was a bunch of stuffbecause I was paying full
attention this time that left meconfused.
And I kind of was wondering,wait, how did they get from like
A to B to C there?
In fact, there is this wholelittle subplot where Hannibal
Lecter is saying that BuffaloBill killed a former lover of

(01:31:20):
his that was Lecter's patient,who ends up being a decapitated
head in a jar that looks likeit's being held at a homeless
camp for some reason.
But somehow Hannibal Lecter gotthis head and knew where it
was.
And there's like a part whereHannibal Lecter gives the wrong
name to the FBI.

And it just had me wondering: like, did he really know (01:31:40):
undefined
anything about Buffalo Bill?
Or was he just kind of makingit up as he went along?

Ashley (01:31:49):
I also had some significant qualms about some of
the mental health aspects inthis, mostly about the
quote-unquote psych hospitalthat Hannibal Lecter is being
held in.

Remi (01:32:02):
You mean the crazy stone dungeon with glass walls on one
side that he is being held in?
I never really noticed howabsurd the imprisonment is until
this viewing.

Ashley (01:32:16):
And when they transport him to like meet with the
senator and then just put him inthis like huge cage they
clearly built for him in themiddle of City Hall?

Remi (01:32:29):
Yeah, it's supposed to be an old courtroom that he's being
held in in that scene.
I don't know why he's beingheld in this weird cell in the
middle of a courtroom full ofold paintings and stuff.
It seems like they're reallygoing above and beyond to get
Hannibal Lecter to advise on acase that, from my point of
view, it seems like he doesn'tknow much about and he's just

(01:32:51):
kind of viewing it from anoutsider looking in.

Ashley (01:32:54):
Well, I think it's because he's supposed to be this
brilliant psychiatrist, sothey're trying to get his
insights into this serial killerto maybe help them track him
down, is what I interpreted itas.

Remi (01:33:07):
And there's a lot more of Hannibal Lecter than I remember.
I always have heard the wholething of, oh, Anthony Hopkins
won an Academy Award for hisperformance in Silence of the
Lambs, and he's only in it for16 minutes.
Well, Buffalo Bill is only inthis film for 10 minutes.
Buffalo Bill is barely acharacter in this, which I don't

(01:33:30):
think you and I realize goinginto it.
I think we both thought that hehad a much bigger role.

Ashley (01:33:35):
And regardless of if he's only in it for 16 minutes,
it feels like more than 16minutes, which is just because
every time Anthony Hopkins is onthe screen, you do not want to
look away.

Remi (01:33:45):
And I have seen a YouTube video of a specialist, a
psychologist, analyzingdifferent performances in films
on how realistic of a portrayalit is of a psychopath.
And from the video I watched, Iremember Anthony Hopkins being
listed as the most unrealisticportrayal of a psychopath on

(01:34:08):
film.
Javier Bardem as Anton Shigurerin No Country for Old Men was
the most accurate.
But Anthony Hopkins iscaptivating to watch in this.
I don't know what he's doing.
He is not acting like any humanI have ever known.
And he was apparently apsychiatrist with patients.
And I remember saying to youwhen we were watching the film,

(01:34:29):
would you ever see apsychiatrist that was acting
this way, hardly blanking andtalking like a lizard?

Ashley (01:34:36):
It would be unnerving, that is for sure.
Well, what similarities did yousee between Buffalo Bill and Ed
Gean?

Remi (01:34:43):
Well, obviously, the biggest thing is the woman suit
that Buffalo Bill is craftingfrom the corpses of his victims.
And according to the film, Billstalks his victims using night
vision goggles, despite italready being pretty well lit in
the area that he's looking,then pretends to be injured,

(01:35:06):
tricks women into helping himload something into his van,
like a couch, and then knocksthem out and abducts them.
This aspect is, of course,taken from Ted Bundy, who would
fake injuries to trick womeninto his car.
Afterwards, Bill keeps them ina basement pit, starves them,

(01:35:28):
and forces them to rub lotion ontheir skin to keep it soft,
which is inspired by GaryHeidnick, who is honestly
someone I don't know atremendous amount about, but he
is someone who kidnapped,tortured, and raped six women,
as we said before, murdering twoof them, and held them captive

(01:35:48):
in a self-dug pit in hisbasement in Philadelphia between
1986 and 1987.
When Bill is ready, he thenshoots his victims, skins part
of their body, and incorporatesthat skin into his woman suit.
But not before inserting hiscalling card of a moth chrysalis

(01:36:11):
in his victim's throat, whichis apparently a death head hawk
moth, and it's like a creepylittle moth with a skull on the
back of it, and it seems like areally random, precise thing
that could pretty easily betraced back to you.
In fact, he has moths flyingover his entire apartment.

Ashley (01:36:30):
Yeah, really, other than the skin suit, there's very,
very few similarities.
At one point, when Hannibalescapes, he does so by wearing
the face and hair of one of hisvictims, but that's nothing to
do with Buffalo Bill.
Really, the only othersimilarity I saw is that in
Buffalo Bill's apartment, at onepoint he has a blanket and a

(01:36:50):
poster that have Nazi symbols onit.

Remi (01:36:53):
I noticed that as well.
His home does have just randomNazi paraphernalia scattered
about.
There's not really anyattention brought to it, but it
is just a subtle thing.

Ashley (01:37:06):
And it's a mess and he's alone.
But other than that, I thinkthat's where the similarities
between Buffalo Bill and Ed Geanend.
It seems like really theprimary inspiration was that
Gary Heidnick character.

Remi (01:37:20):
Yeah, Ed Gean did not stalk or trick strangers into
being his victims like Billdoes, using deception or traps.
He never used night visiongoggles.
He never kept anyone captive.
And of course, no moths.

Ashley (01:37:36):
So, of all of these three Hollywood adaptations,
what one do you see Gean in themost?

Remi (01:37:42):
None of them really capture who I envision Ed Gean
as after learning his story.
But the closest out of all ofthem, believe it or not, is
probably the least gruesome.
I think that Norman Bates isthe closest interpretation of Ed
Gean that we have gotten onfilm, primarily because of the

(01:38:05):
psychology.
All the other films focus moreon the grotesque horror aspects
of what Gean did, but theyignore the psychological aspect.
And Psycho is one of the onlyfilms that I think captures that
part of Gean's life veryaccurately, in my opinion.

Ashley (01:38:26):
I agree.
It's really the relationshipwith his mother and how much he
unravels after her death thatreally stands out to me.

Remi (01:38:35):
Well, that's where we'll leave Ed Gean for now.
A quiet, lonely little manwhose life and crimes left scars
far beyond Plainfield,inspiring some of the most
haunting stories ever put onscreen.

Ashley (01:38:52):
But Ed's story isn't finished.
Next time we'll look at how hislife is being retold for a new
generation in Netflix's monster,the Ed Gean Story, the third
season of the hit Americanbiographical crime drama
anthology created by Ryan Murphyand Ian Brennan.
We'll explore how the seriesreframes his crimes, his
psychology, and the horrorlegacy he left behind.

Remi (01:39:15):
So join us in just one week when we will be giving our
full thoughts on Monster theEdgean story.
But until then, thank you forjoining us.
Court is adjourned.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

The Joe Rogan Experience

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ed Gein & Hollywood (Bonus Episode)

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

The Joe Rogan Experience

Stuff You Should Know

All Episodes

Ed Gein & Hollywood (Bonus Episode)

On Purpose with Jay Shetty