Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Remi (00:14):
Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, the show where we
take a look at some of yourfavorite movies and the true
crime stories that inspiredthem.
I'm Remy.
I spent over a decade workingin the film and television
industry in Los Angeles,California.

Ashley (00:27):
And I'm Ashley.
I'm a clinical psychologist andforensic evaluator in the state
of Oregon.

Remi (00:33):
And welcome back, everybody.
Hope you all are having a MerryChristmas and a happy holidays,
whatever your beliefs may be.
How are you doing today,Ashley?

Ashley (00:47):
I am doing great.
It's hard to believe that thisepisode is going to be releasing
the week of Christmas becausewe are recording this in
advance, and there's still alittle bit ways to go until we
reach that point.
But man, this year has beenflying by.

Remi (01:04):
And I'm pretty sure before we realize it, it's going to be
like a week away.
But you know the old saying,the days are long, but the years
go quickly.
So what are we talking abouttoday, Ashley?

Ashley (01:17):
Today we have a bit of a doozy.
We are covering ClintEastwood's movie, which will not
be the last Clint Eastwood filmwe cover for this podcast,
Midnight in the Garden of Goodand Evil, starring John Cusack
and the infamous Kevin Spacey.
I know you have a lot ofthoughts about Kevin Spacey.

Remi (01:38):
Indeed, I do.
There's an old expression aboutseparating art from the artist,
which basically means judgingor appreciating a piece of art,
like a film, song, book, orpainting, independently of the
personal actions, beliefs, ormoral character of the person

(01:59):
who created it.
Some examples being enjoyingMichael Jackson's music, despite
all the allegations, orappreciating Roman Polanski
movies like Chinatown orRosemary's Baby while still
condemning his personal crimes.

Ashley (02:14):
Which side note, Chinatown is on our list of
movies to cover because it isabout a civil case based out of
California.
So we will be diving a bit intoRoman Polanski sometime in the
future.

Remi (02:27):
Well, the whole separating the art from the artist thing,
I have realized that I am notsomeone who is able to do this.
Since all the allegations cameout, I just can't watch a Kevin
Spacey film the same way that Iused to.
And honestly, I just don't now.

(02:50):
So this is the first KevinSpacey movie I've watched in
quite some time.

Ashley (02:54):
But you said that this movie was less problematic for
you to watch since he is playingthe villain.

Remi (03:02):
He plays the villain a lot, but it kind of just grosses
me out to watch him these days.
I mean, I used to think he wasa great actor, like in The Usual
Suspects and Seven, but afterall of the allegations came out,
on top of the stories I haveheard from people who met him
personally, I just cannot lookat him now without seeing him as

(03:24):
a sickeningly detestable sexualassaulting piece of shit.

Ashley (03:30):
And for those of you who are unaware or may not know as
much about the sexual assaultallegations against Kevin Spacey
as you would like.
There is also a docuseries thataired rather recently on HBO.

Remi (03:47):
But enough about Spacey.
What about Clint Eastwood?
This is directed by him, notstarring him.
Do you have any feelings orthoughts about Mr.
Eastwood?

Ashley (03:59):
I mean, my thoughts are one, he's so old and has so many
kids.
When it comes to his line ofwork, I like him better as a
director than an actor.
He has directed some reallyremarkable pieces of work.

Remi (04:13):
And I've often heard his directing style praised as being
really quick and efficient.
Like a lot of people likeworking on Clint Eastwood films
because they'll be home by 5p.m.
to eat dinner with theirfamily, which is something
extremely rare in the filmindustry.

Ashley (04:33):
I know we have at least one other Clint Eastwood movie
on our list, which he also starsin, The Mule.

Remi (04:41):
And there's been some debate over us covering Richard
Jewell or not, becausetechnically he did not commit a
crime and he was falselyaccused.
But if anyone out there isinterested, we have been
debating.
So any votes out there would beappreciated.

Ashley (04:57):
No, no, no.
I forgot that movie wasdirected by him.
That debate was closed becauseI had pled my case for so long,
and you ended up seceding thatit does count for a criteria of
a true crime film and case.
So we will be doing RichardJewel before the mule.

Remi (05:17):
And it gives me an excuse to discuss Paul Walterhauser,
who we will also be discussingin a few future episodes.
I know he was in the TanyaHarding film, but I think he is
a magnificent character actor,and I look forward to discussing
him someday.

Ashley (05:33):
Well, what about this movie, Remy?
Had you ever seen Midnight inthe Garden of Good and Evil
before this episode?
I know I had not.
I had not read the book, and Ididn't know anything about the
case.
I knew it was a book.
It's kind of compared to TrumanCapote's In Cold Blood.
It had that much of aninfluence in society as a

(05:54):
nonfiction novel, but I hadnever seen the movie or read it.

Remi (05:58):
Neither had I, believe it or not.
This was on my list for quitesome time.
It came out in the 90s when Iwas first getting into film.
And at the time I was a fan ofKevin Spacey and John Cusack,
but just never got around tochecking this one out.
I remember seeing the trailerand being interested and cut to

(06:22):
20 years later, and I'm just nowgetting around to it.

Ashley (06:25):
Well, I'm excited to hear about your thoughts and
what you learned about the pre-and post-production.
So let's get into it, shall we?

Lady Chablis (06:34):
You know, it's like my mom always said two
tears in a bucket,motherfuckets.
I have to remember that one.

Remi (06:46):
Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil is a 1997 American
crime drama directed andproduced by Clint Eastwood,
starring John Cusack and KevinSpacey.
The screenplay was written byJohn Lee Hancock and was based
on John Barrent's 1994nonfiction book of the same

(07:09):
name.

Ashley (07:10):
Which obviously is what I read for my portion of the
podcast.

Remi (07:14):
Back in 1986, only four years after graduating from
Baylor Law School, John LeeHancock was still balancing two
lives, practicing law by day andwriting plays, short stories,
and screenplays by night.
Eventually, he reached acrossroads, having to choose
between staying on the pathtowards partnership and

(07:36):
stability with the firm, ortaking a chance by pursuing his
other passion of becoming awriter.

Ashley (07:43):
Obviously, he chose taking a leap, but man, that is
a certain future of being awell-respected attorney, making
a very comfortable income thathe is giving up.

Remi (07:58):
I actually read an interview where he was
discussing this, and he saidbasically he was choosing to
pursue something that he wasdoing for free in his spare
time, which usually does not payvery well when you're first
getting started, by leaving avery secure job that would lead

(08:18):
to a lot of promising things inthe future.
So yeah, he really gambled onhimself and remarkably it did
work out for him.
Well, after moving on out toTinseltown, Hancock's big break
wouldn't come until the early90s, when his writing finally
caught the attention of acertified Hollywood legend,

(08:39):
Clint Eastwood, who just a fewyears earlier earned three
Oscars at the 65th AcademyAwards, including Best Picture,
Best Director, and Best Actorfor his 1992 Western Unforgiven.

Ashley (08:56):
And for those of you who did not listen to our last
episode of A Few Good Men, thiswas the movie that Gene Hackman
turned down Colonel Jessup for asupporting actor role in this
film and won.

Remi (09:13):
Beating Jack Nicholson.
Damn you, Hackman.
John Lee Hancock and Eastwoodfirst work together on A Perfect
World in 1993, starring KevinCostner as an escaped prisoner
who kidnaps a young boy and setsout on the run with him as his
hostage.
Along with directing the film,Eastwood also co-stars as the

(09:35):
determined Texas Ranger pursuingthe wanted convict.
A few years later, Hancockwrote the screenplay adaptation
of John Barrent's Midnight inthe Garden of Good and Evil, and
brought it to Eastwood beforehe'd ever even read the book.
Eastwood ended up reading thescript first, found it
intriguing, and only then wentback to read the source material

(09:59):
that had inspired it.

Clint Eastwood (10:07):
They see who they see in it, and and um
they're always hoping that theirfavorite sequence from the book
will be will appear.
I know a lot of times it'sdisappointing when when it
isn't, but hopefully we'vecaptured the essence of
Savannah.

Ashley (10:21):
It is always so weird to me to watch these old
interviews because I know in mymind that Clint Eastwood has
been around since the dawn oftime.
And at one point he was young,but I only know Clint Eastwood
as a young man who soundsremarkably different than he
does in that interview, andlooks and moves differently than

(10:44):
he does in that interview.
It's just weird to me.

Remi (10:47):
He seems like he has just been around forever.
I have also never known ClintEastwood as a young man.
He's always been a gray-haired,sandy-skinned, older gentleman.
But I respect that he has beendoing this for the astonishingly
long amount of time that hehas, and still continues to do

(11:09):
so.

Ashley (11:09):
Oh yeah, every time I see that there's a Clint
Eastwood movie coming out, it'sone I'm definitely gonna watch.

Remi (11:16):
Well, Hancock said that working with Clint Eastwood was
his version of film school.
Though Hancock held degrees inEnglish and law, along with a
few years of courtroomexperience, he had no formal
training working in film.
Despite this, Eastwood welcomedhim to the sets on a perfect

(11:38):
world and Midnight in the Gardenof Good and Evil, giving him a
hands-on education in filmmakingby learning the pace of working
on a set, and how to lead acrew while still balancing
artistry with restraint.
Midnight in the Garden of Goodand Evil also marked the 20th
film directed by Clint Eastwoodat the time.

(12:02):
In 1996, while preparing forthe film, Eastwood visited
Savannah, Georgia, where most ofthe film would later be shot.
Eastwood recalled, I didn't getto know too many people at the
time, mostly places, but I didmeet some people who knew about
Jim Williams, and I met theattorney Sonny Seller, who was

(12:24):
very helpful in helping everyoneunderstand what the attitude
and atmosphere was in Savannahin the 1980s.
The character of John Kelso wasloosely inspired by the book's
author, John Barrent.

Ashley (12:40):
From what I know about this film and how closely it
follows the outline of the book,I'm gonna argue that it is more
than loosely inspired by theauthor.
It is the author.

Remi (12:53):
Yeah, if he's not playing the author, I don't know who
he's supposed to be playing inthis film.
John Cusack is definitelyplaying John Barrent in this
film.
But the role was first offeredto Edward Norton, who turned it
down before John Cusack waseventually cast.
Eastwood chose Cusack afterseeing his sharp, quick-witted

(13:16):
performance in Gross Point Blankearlier that year, believing
Cusack would bring the perfectmixture of both comedy and
restraint to juxtapose againstthe eccentric world of Savannah,
Georgia.
Have you ever seen Gross PointBlank, Ashley?

Ashley (13:34):
Nope, and I've never heard of it.

Remi (13:36):
Oh, it's great.
It's about a hitman that goesto his high school reunion.
We will definitely be watchingthat this week.
Before filming began, JohnBarent himself gave Cusack a
personal tour of Savannah,introducing him to many of the
real people and places that hadinspired his book.

Ashley (13:56):
But still, Cusack is only loosely inspired by this
author.

Remi (14:01):
For the role of notorious murdering millionaire Jim
Williams, Eastwood wanted anactor who could capture Southern
sophistication with equal partsintelligence, refinement, and
intrigue.
Early considerations includedRobert Redford and Jack
Nicholson, two people wediscussed on the past two

(14:23):
episodes of this show.

Ashley (14:25):
I cannot imagine either of them playing this role.
As I was reading this, KevinSpacey is who I pictured in my
mind.

Remi (14:34):
Yeah, I do hate to say it, but Spacey was kind of the
perfect casting for this role.
Nicholson would have been toosinister, and Redford would have
been too laid back andcharismatic.
Spacey has like a weird balanceof charismatic and sinister

(14:56):
that really works well for therole.
And after seeing pictures ofthe real Jim Williams, Spacey
also looks the part as well.

Ashley (15:05):
What had he done before this?

Remi (15:08):
Well, at the time, he was basically at the height of his
career and still riding highfrom his Oscar win for the usual
suspects, along with garneringcritical acclaim for his
performances in films like Sevenand LA Confidential, which won
the Best Picture Award that sameyear.

(15:28):
Eastwood said that he admiredSpacey's effortless ability to
keep audiences guessing whilebalancing charisma with moral
ambiguity.
Oh, how right you were, Clint.
Before filming began, Spaceyspent time in Savannah, quietly
observing locals to master thecity's distinctive Southern

(15:51):
drawl.
Clint's daughter, AlisonEastwood, was cast in the role
of Mandy Nichols after threeauditions, several
read-throughs, and multiplescreen tests, having to earn the
part on her own merit ratherthan nepotism.

Ashley (16:09):
I know this was probably very obnoxious for her, because
if I had a father that wasClint Eastwood, I would be super
annoyed if I had to put anyeffort into getting any sort of
casting role, especially for amovie he was making.
But I appreciate that ClintEastwood did this.

Remi (16:27):
I have also heard interviews with Scott Eastwood
where he basically says the samething.
His dad did not give him a legup at all, and didn't really
help his kids very much alongthe way, which is rare in
Hollywood.
I gotta admire that.
Clint later welcomed his eighthand final child, Morgan, into

(16:52):
the world around the same timethat this film rapped at the
ripe old age of 66.

Ashley (16:59):
So, unlike Robert De Niro, who had his last child in
2023 at the ripe age of 79, andAlbacino, who recently fathered
his last child at the age of 83,Clintice Wood has stopped
reproducing at a rather youngage.

Remi (17:20):
Yeah, he stopped at retirement age.
The production featured severalreal-life Savannah residents
appearing as themselves,including Lady Chablis, pianist
Emma Kelly, and attorney JerrySpence.
Jim Williams' sister DorothyKingery, his nieces Susan and
Amanda, and Georgia Senator JohnR.

(17:43):
Jack Riley also appear asguests during the film's
Christmas party scene.
Sonny Seller, the real lawyerwho defended Jim Williams,
appears as Judge Samuel L.
White, while his onscreencounterpart was played by
Australian actor Jack Thompson,who impressed the real Sonny

(18:04):
with how naturally he capturedhis accent and mannerisms.
The real life victim, DannyHansford, was renamed Billy
Hansen for the film, and isportrayed by a 24-year-old Jude
Law in one of his very firstmajor film roles.
And finally, though thecourtroom and action scenes were

(18:27):
later recreated on a WarnerBrothers soundstage, filming did
partially take place insideMercer House, which was Jim
Williams' real home, as well asthe location of the actual
murder.

Ashley (18:40):
Oh yeah, I got some facts on Mercer House.

Remi (18:43):
Well, darling, are you ready to get on down to Savannah
with me?

Ashley (18:48):
Yeah, I'm excited.
I've never been to Georgiabefore.

Kevin Spacey (18:52):
That old black magic has me in its spell.
That old black magic lets youweave so well.
Those ice.

Remi (19:04):
Our story begins in Savannah, Georgia, at the grave
of John H.
Mercer, born November 18th,1909, and laid to rest on June
25th, 1976.
And in case you were wondering,John H.
Mercer was the Savannah-born,Oscar-winning American
songwriter of such classics asMoon River and That Old Black

(19:28):
Magic Woman, which Kevin Spaceywas singing at the beginning of
this segment.
Oh, and he was also theco-founder of Capitol Records.

Ashley (19:38):
Johnny Mercer was actually an infamous
singer-songwriter.
He is a four-time Oscar winnerand 18-time nominee.
So very, very impressive.

Remi (19:49):
Well, John is not directly involved in this story, but his
family's Mercer house will comeinto play later in the film.
From there, the scene shifts toa hauntingly memorable old
African-American woman namedMinerva, played by Irma P.
Hall, sitting on a park benchbickering with a squirrel.

(20:13):
Her attention soon driftsskyward, towards a plane making
its descent into a localairport, which provokes a deeply
delighted laugh from Minerva atthe very sight of it.
Inside that plane is JohnKelso, played by John Cusack.
And after landing, John catchesa double decker tour bus to

(20:34):
soak in a bit of Savannah'ssouthern charm as he rides into
the city.

Ashley (20:39):
And I'm gonna interject here.
So throughout this book andthrough talking to Remy, I have
learned that there are a lot ofrandom characters in this story.

Remi (20:52):
So many random characters.

Ashley (20:55):
And pretty much none of them have anything to do with
the actual crime.
None of them matter.
So I have omitted them frommost of my part, but they are in
the novel.
So as Remy is going through themovie, I am going to interject
here to give any sort of funfacts, tidbits, insights into

(21:17):
the inspiration behind thesecharacters that the audience
might want to know.
And this is the firstdifference here.
John Barent actually lived inNew York for 20 years and was
writing and editing formagazines like Esquire and the
New York Times and decided tomake Savannah his second home.
Mostly because he saw the cityportrayed and gone with the wind

(21:41):
and treasure island and justthought it was beautiful.
So the whole story is based onhis experiences that he
accumulated from living therefor eight years as a part-time
resident.
He would basically live inSavannah for a month, fly back
to New York for a little bit,live back in Savannah for a
month.

Remi (22:01):
So he wasn't brought in to cover a story in Savannah.

Ashley (22:06):
No, he just happened to be there, just living life,
flying back and forth fromSavannah to New York when this
murder happened.

Remi (22:15):
Well, that is definitely not how the character of John
Kelso starts off in this film,because he is cruising into
Savannah for the very first timeas his guide is rattling off
bits of history and local lore.
But John's attention lands on ayoung man with a Confederate

(22:38):
flag tattoo washing his musclecar by the side of the road,
whom we will later learn isnamed Billy Hansen, played by
Jude Law.

Ashley (22:49):
And I leave this out, but the person who inspired
Billy Hanson's character didhave a Confederate flag tattoo
on one arm and a marijuana leafon the other.

Remi (23:01):
They excluded the marijuana leaf in the film
adaptation, but they held trueto the Confederate flag tattoo.
John soon arrives at the gatesof a grand antebellum mansion
where he's greeted by an elderlywoman named Mrs.
Baxter.
She welcomes him with the kindof southern warmth that feels

(23:24):
both genuine and rehearsed,offering him a drink as they
stroll through the grounds.
We learn that John is a writerfor Town and Country magazine,
sent to Savannah to write ashort 500-word feature on an
annual Christmas party beinghosted the following night by a
wealthy antiques dealer namedJim Williams, who also owns the

(23:49):
historic Mercer House along withseveral other notable
properties around town.
Later that day, John sets outto meet the man himself, but is
first introduced to Jim'sattorney, Sonny Seller, played
by Jack Thompson, whose officewalls are lined floor to ceiling
with framed photographs of theUniversity of Georgia's beloved

(24:12):
mascot, Uga the Bulldog.

Ashley (24:15):
I do want to point out that point one of this book,
which actually turns out toeasily be the first half, is all
about these random people thatthe author meets.
And there is a whole chapterabout Uga the Bulldog.
And no offense to people thatare fans of this football team

(24:37):
or this dog, but it was veryobnoxious to someone who was
reading the book trying tohighlight facts that actually
had any bearing on the case tohave to sift through all of this
slog.

Remi (24:50):
I had not heard of Ugga the Bulldog.
I originally just wrote it downas he had an office full of
bulldog photographs on his wall,which would be even weirder.
But he is apparently a verylong-standing beloved mascot of
the University of Georgia.

Ashley (25:08):
Oh, and people in the South take their college
football very, very, veryseriously.

Remi (25:14):
Well, when John is introduced to Sonny, Sonny asks
John to sign a confidentialityagreement, which he claims is a
standard formality, but Johndeclines, worried that signing
such a document couldpotentially compromise the
integrity of his story.
In spite of this, the meetingstill proceeds, and John is

(25:37):
introduced to Jim Williams,played by Kevin Spacey, a
sharply dressed mustachiogentleman whose slow southern
draw projects an aura of calmrefinement, confident charm, and
quiet command.
In contrast, John comes acrossas a polite, clear-spoken,

(25:59):
observant outsider, who standsout like a sore thumb against
Savannah's eccentric atmosphere.
The two men then take Uga theBulldog out for a stroll through
the park to get acquainted.

Ashley (26:13):
Wait, they actually are in possession of the mascot?
This scene is clearly anaddition to not make it weird
about how obsessed this attorneyis with this mascot.

Remi (26:30):
On their stroll, they pass by a man walking what appears
to be an invisible dog duringtheir excursion.

Midnight in the Garden of G (26:38):
You signed Sonny's papers?
Actually, no.
Good for you.
Sonny's overly protective of myinterests.

(26:58):
Thank you very much.
Well, thank you for having me.
No matter what you and I everdo in our lives, Mr.
Kelso, neither of us will everbe as famous as Uga.

Ashley (27:09):
Oh my gosh, everyone needs to watch this video
because Uga is so cute.

Remi (27:16):
Well, sidebar here, the bulldog featured in the film was
the real Ugga.
Or more specifically, Ugga 5,the official University of
Georgia's mascot at the time offilming.

Ashley (27:31):
That is a nice little addition that Clint Eastwood
didn't just get any Bulldog forthe movie.
He got Ugga.

Remi (27:37):
Oh, you gotta get Ugga.
During their walk, Jim casuallyreveals that there will
actually be two Christmasparties.
One for the town's elite thefollowing night, and another
that very evening, reservedstrictly for bachelors.

Ashley (27:57):
I omit this for my portion, but Jim did have two
parties.
And this was the criteria forthe invitations.

Remi (28:05):
Jim invites John to attend, but on the condition
that he come purely as a guestand not as a reporter.
John hesitates, feeling thatevery experience should be
treated as potential material,and since agreeing to those
terms would mean compromisinghis work, John politely turns

(28:28):
down Jim's invitation.
That night, as Jim's bachelorsoiree unfolds, John watches the
festivities from afar out ofhis hotel room window from
across the street.
Eventually, John calls it anight and puts on a cassette
tape of New York City noisepollution to help him fall

(28:50):
asleep.

Ashley (28:51):
I mean, I guess if you've lived there your whole
life and that's what you're usedto having in the background as
you're sleeping, silence mightbe rather disturbing to you.

Remi (29:02):
I will say this
there is a weird thing of howyou can kind of always hear the
outside street, even when you'reinside somewhere.
So I guess I can kind ofunderstand that.
His sound sleep doesn't lastlong, however, because just a
few hours later, John is joltedfrom his slumber by the sounds

(29:26):
of incessant knocking at hisdoor.
When he answers, John is met bythe striking sight of a young
blonde woman with a bohemianedge, who introduces herself as
Mandy Nichols, played by AlisonEastwood.
Without hesitation, she brushesright past John, claiming that

(29:47):
she needs some ice, though hertone does suggest that she may
be open to more interestingpossibilities.
And I'm also just gonna saythis now to get it out of the
way, but Mandy is a completelypointless character.
She was clearly out.
To give John some sort of alove interest, and she pops up

(30:10):
here and there throughout thefilm, but she really doesn't add
anything significant ormeaningful to the plot in any
way, which is kind of crazybecause this character is played
by Clint Eastwood's daughter ofall people, who apparently had
to audition multiple times justto play this nothing role in her

(30:31):
father's film.
Now, I'm not saying shedeserved the Sophia Coppola
Godfather 3 treatment oranything like that, but come on,
man, at least give hersomething to do as long as she's
here.

Ashley (30:44):
So this character is clearly based on Mandy Nichols,
who does end up dating someonenamed Joe Odom.
Are you gonna get into Joe atsome point?

Remi (30:55):
Oh, we'll get to Joe in just a moment.

Ashley (30:57):
Okay.
I will hold off on talkingabout Mandy and Joe for now, but
what I will say is this is howthe author met her.

Remi (31:06):
I am totally surprised by that.

Ashley (31:09):
She is not fictitious.
How the author talks about herin the book.
There is no mention of any sortof love interest, but it makes
sense giving her age and howthey met that that would be
incorporated in the film just toadd a little, you know.

Remi (31:25):
So after filling a bucket with ice, Mandy alluringly
invites John to throw on somepants and join her at another
party, far less polished thanthe upper crust shindig being
thrown across the street.
After slipping into sometrousers, they head across town
to a crumbling old savannamansion, currently occupied by

(31:48):
squatters throwing a makeshiftcelebration.
Inside, John is introduced tothe party's host, Joe Odom,
played by Paul Hip, a charmingrogue with a devil may care
attitude and a laid-backconfidence.

Ashley (32:05):
Brief breakdown for Joe Odom, since he has so many pages
worth of representation in thisbook for no real reason.

Remi (32:16):
Good, because this is literally the last time I
mention him.

Ashley (32:19):
Joe Odom was basically a tax lawyer and real estate
broker in Savannah who ended uplosing all of his respect
through shady businesspractices.
After that, he made his moneyby either renting homes or
sometimes squatting at them andrenting them out for tours under

(32:41):
the guise that the homes he wasliving in were historic
landmarks.

Remi (32:46):
So he was a hustler.

Ashley (32:48):
Basically, yes, he was a hustler.
He made this money.
He had a couple businessventures, didn't pay the
contractors who were working torestore the bars and houses he
tried to reinvent.
And then he ends up gettingsued.
He has four or five wives.

(33:09):
He's just a scoundrel.

Remi (33:12):
He is an extremely interesting character, and he
pops up later on with aone-horse-drawn carriage, which
he was apparently given becauseof a fender bender.
But yeah, he really has nobearing on the story whatsoever.
He's just kind of a colorfulcharacter thrown into the mix.

Ashley (33:31):
What I got from the vibe of reading the book is that the
author thought he was a veryinteresting character.
But when it comes down to it,he's not.
He's a guy that didn't likepaying his rent.
He's a guy that didn't likepaying the contractors, and just
schmoozed his way out of it.
He is really just a piece ofshit, dude.

Remi (33:54):
The next morning, John finds a neatly wrapped package
waiting at his hotel.
Inside is a tuxedo from JimWilliams, along with a short
note inviting John to thatnight's real Christmas party.
When John arrives early, hetakes in the details of Jim's
home.

(34:14):
A masterpiece of Southernrestoration filled with gleaming
antique furniture, polishedmahogany hallways, and perfectly
arranged paintings andcollectibles that reflect Jim's
wealth, taste, and quietobsession with control.
That night's Christmas partyunfolds like the pages of a

(34:36):
Southern society novel.
Refined and elegant, yetfaintly surreal, as Savannah's
eccentric elite sip from crystalglasses while they mingle and
gossip like characters fromanother era.

Midnight in the Garden of (34:52):
Harry was just about to show us the
latest edition to his awful.
You know what that is?
That is a 25.
My late husband blew his brainsout.
So did Mom.
I was fixing myself a drink,and gun smoke was on TV, and I
heard a show.
I thought it was part of theshow till I walked in, and there

(35:15):
was Lama Bling sprawled in hisfavorite jam.
And you know, everyone knew amarriage was a disaster.
I'd so much as touched thatgun, later charged me with my.

Remi (36:06):
Which is one of the reasons that I think that they
brought the John Cusackcharacter in early.
As you mentioned, he reallydidn't get involved with this
whole thing until after themurder had occurred.
But in this film, they bringhim in a bit early.
And I think that's because JohnCusack is basically supposed to
be the audience, the outsiderbeing introduced to this new

(36:30):
world and all of these weirdthings, and he's basically the
audience's avatar reacting toall of this wackiness.
And sidebar here, for theChristmas party scene at Mercer
House, they actually invited alarge number of people who had
previously been at James ArthurWilliams' parties, including

(36:53):
several members of his family.
Later in the evening, John andJim share a quiet drink in Jim's
study, where the conversationturns more personal, and John
learns more about the man behindthat evening's decadent
southern splendor.
Jim reveals that he was born inGordon, Georgia, the son of a

(37:16):
barber and a secretary, with nofamily fortune or grand
inheritance to fall back on, andall of the power and
possessions he now wields wereonly obtained within the last 11
years.
Suddenly, without warning, thedoor bursts open and in walks
Billy Hansen, making one of themost entertainingly disruptive

(37:40):
entrances I have personally everseen.

Fuck you, goddamn bitch! Wouldn't
they even let me in the fuckinghouse had to come in a servant's
entrance?

Kevin Spacey (37:54):
Billy, I thought we agreed you'd stay away
tonight.
Don't give me that drag assshit, Jimmy.
My guy stood up tonight.

Midnight in the Garden of G (38:00):
I'm pissed off.
Give me $20.
You get paid on Friday likeeveryone else.
What do you need $20 now?
Give me $20 a need to getfucked up is what?
Well, I'd say you'veaccomplished that support.
Give me the money.
I ain't even close to gettingfucked up the wild moon.
No, I'm not gonna give you moneyfor liquor and marijuana
cigarettes and whatever elseyou've been buying them for.

(38:22):
You, Jim.
You don't give me warnings.
I give them to you, remember,because I can back mine up.
You, you piece of shit.
You better watch yourself.
Okay.

Ashley (38:42):
So this is pretty accurate, at least per the book,
of how the author and DannyHansford first meet.
Minus the breaking the glassand wielding it as a weapon.
He just kind of comes in, is ina drunken rage, and demands
money.
Jim gives him the money and heleaves.

Remi (39:02):
Personally speaking, Jude Law is fucking terrible in this
film, but he did get better, atleast, later in life.

Ashley (39:12):
I don't think he was really bad in that scene, but
granted, that's all I've seenthus far.

Remi (39:19):
Well, that is his only scene in the film, so that's all
he gets.
Billy dramatically storms outof the room, leaving John and
Jim alone in awkward silence.
Seemingly having dealt withthis sort of thing before, Jim
appears remarkably unfazed,gliding over to a nearby piano

(39:39):
and calmly taking a seat.
With a flick of a switch, alarge red curtain sweeps open at
the front of the room,revealing a massive hidden pipe
organ as Jim launches into aboomingly jaunty little ditty
purely to irritate hisneighbor's dogs for his own
amusement.
You gotta take joy in the pettythings in life, apparently,

(40:02):
when you're this rich.
Once the party has concludedand the guests have all cleared
out, John and Jim have one lastdrink together before John heads
back to his hotel and calls ita night.
John's beauty sleep isdisrupted for the second night
in a row when he is awoken soonafter by flashing blue and red

(40:23):
lights illuminating his room andthe intrusive sounds of sirens
echoing through the quiet squareoutside.
Checking out his window, Johnnotices that police cruisers
have lined the streets alongwith numerous officers
assembling outside Jim'smansion.

Ashley (40:41):
So, side note, the Christmas party scene that we
previously just saw is obviouslyfrom December.
The murder of Danny Hansford,aka Billy Hansen, in this film,
actually took place at thebeginning of May, not the night
after the author met Danny.

Remi (41:01):
Did it occur at a party?

Ashley (41:03):
No.
So the author first met Dannyat a big party, and then, as
I'll explain in my portionlater, the murder occurred five
months later when it was justJim and Danny spending the night
together.

Remi (41:19):
Okay, so they're condensing the timeline.

Ashley (41:22):
Yes, which what I've heard from you is something that
continues throughout theremainder of the spell.

Remi (41:27):
Wanting to get a closer look, John joins a gaggle of
neighborhood onlookers beingserved cocktails and hors
d'oeuvres by Joe Odom, watchingthe events unfold from across
the street as if it were a stageplay.
When John inquires what all thefuss is about, he is given the
shocking news that Jim Williamsshot and killed Billy Hansen

(41:50):
sometime after John had left forthe evening.
John rushes inside to find Jim,rattled and shaken, giving his
statement to the police.
According to Jim, Billy cameback later that night, drunk and
enraged, threatening him with ahandgun, firing first and
narrowly missing.
Acting in self-defense, Jimclaims to have then grabbed his

(42:15):
own Luger pistol from his deskdrawer and returned fire,
consequently ending Billy's lifein the process.
In Jim's office, investigatorsphotograph Billy's lifeless
body, face down on an ornaterug, with a gun still clenched
between his fingers and bulletholes in the opposing wall.

(42:35):
The next morning, John gets onthe phone with his literary
agent, explaining how what wassupposed to be a quick, easy
500-word piece about a Christmasparty had unexpectedly turned
into a full-blown true crimestory overnight.
So John was now planning onstaying in Savannah to continue

(42:56):
covering the story with theintention of expanding the
material into a novel.
John begins his investigationat Billy's old apartment, a
small, run-down little carriagehouse, which Billy shared with a
local drag performer named LadyShablis, played by Chablis
DeVoe, a sharp, confidenttransgender woman who is also

(43:20):
totally uninterested in talkingto John.

Ashley (43:23):
Okay, Lady Shablis is in the book, obviously.
She has one full chapter and acouple others where she is a
strong supporting character, butshe did not live with Billy
Hansen, aka Danny Hansford.
She is just another randomperson that the author met while
he was living in Savannah.

Remi (43:42):
Wait, so she's not directly involved in the crime
at all?

Ashley (43:47):
No.

Remi (43:47):
Wow, okay.
Yeah, she is like a majorfigure throughout the entire
film.
She'd probably be the thirdbuild.
After Lady Chablis turns downJohn's Inquisition, John is not
deterred.
In fact, he drives out to pickup some beautiful pink roses
from Mandy's flower shop, thenwaits outside Lady Chablis'

(44:11):
doctor appointment, greeting herwith a bouquet of flowers and
an offer for a ride home as akind of peace offering when she
walks out.

Ashley (44:21):
So he does end up giving Lady Shablis a ride home, but
not because he was trying to geta story.
She just ran into him and waslike, hey you, drive me home.
And he did.

Remi (44:32):
Well, Lady Shablis in the film does agree to a ride from
John, leading to the followingconversation.

Lady Chablis (44:41):
What'd you want to talk to me about?
Billy Hanson.
No, Billy's dead.
Case closed.
Billy, my boyfriend.
Were you two lovers?
No, hell no.
Billy was way too trashy forme, honey.
I'm a lady.
However, he did date myroommate Corinne for a while.

(45:05):
The two of those had some wildtimes together.
So tell me more about her,Corinne.
Corinne's like a lot of girls.
She found herself attracted tothe wrong type of man.
Billy was not the right type ofman.
She thought she could changehim, but there was no way of
changing that evil son of abitch.

(45:25):
I'd love to speak to Corinne.
I'd like to speak to her too.
But she skipped town, owing metoo much rent.
And Billy said that he wouldpay for it, but now he's, you
know, he's Wow.

Ashley (45:39):
This is a much more tamed-down version of Lady
Chablis versus how she isportrayed in the book.

Remi (45:46):
She's great in this film, but I did expect the girl that
Billy was supposedly hooking upwith, Corinne, to come back and
make an appearance at somepoint, but she never comes into
the story at all.
Down at a diner later, Johnspots a man sitting alone,
covered in bumblebees tied tostrings attached to his sweater,

(46:08):
buzzing all around him likeit's the most normal thing in
the world.
Legend has it that while eatingbreakfast every morning, the
man debates whether or not touse the small vial sitting next
to his plate to poison thetown's water supply.
This also doesn't really haveanything to do with the plot,
however, but oh well.

Ashley (46:29):
Yeah, so this is supposed to be Luther Driggers.
He was actually a man that forhis whole career worked for the
government in some capacity.
He's actually credited, atleast in the book, as being the
original inventor of the fleacollar, but because he was a
government employee at the time,he couldn't get any money for
his work.

(46:49):
At the time the author met him,he was a technician at the
government insectory, where hewas responsible for raising
colonies of beetles so he couldtest insecticides on them.
When he got bored, he would putflies to sleep and glue long
threads to their back so hewould just be seen on occasion

(47:11):
walking around holding a dozenstrings, walking his pet flies
around downtown.
Sometimes, when they werepassed out, he would also glue
wasp wings to them to improvetheir aerodynamics, or make one
wing slightly shorter than theother so they would fly in
circles for the rest of theirlives.
He also did claim to have avial of some super deadly poison

(47:36):
that he just would considerdunking into the water supply at
night.
At the end of the book, it isrevealed that while he does have
this vial, he knows he couldn'tdo that because the water
supply is from a deepunderground aqueduct.

Remi (47:53):
In the movie, I assume they converted the flies to
bumblebees because bumblebeesare easier to film on screen.
They're a little bit bigger andeasier to spot.

Ashley (48:05):
And cuter.

Remi (48:07):
Alright, on to the voodoo.
Later that night, Jim bringsJohn to a foggy old cemetery
hidden out by the live oaks onthe edge of town.
Out of the darkness comesMinerva, the same woman we saw
at the beginning of the filmtalking to a squirrel, moving
through the mist with a lanternin hand, her jewelry glinting

(48:29):
faintly in the moonlight,wrapped in layers of shawls and
scarves.
Turns out Minerva is a voodoohigh priestess, and Jim brought
her out here to perform amidnight ritual that has
something to do with Billy'ssoul, though the details are
vague at best.
Whatever it is, it involveschanting, cash, and Minerva

(48:53):
lying face down on the grave ofher late husband, Dr.
Buzzard.

Ashley (48:58):
Isn't that such a great name?

Remi (49:00):
It really is.
Is that really her latehusband's name?

Ashley (49:03):
It is.

Remi (49:05):
A few days later, Jim is indicted by a grand jury on
murder one charges, potentiallyfacing a life sentence.
During his initial hearing,prosecuting attorney, Finlay
Largent, played by Bob Gunton,successfully petitions for Jim
to be held without bail untilthe trial.
During a later jailhouseinterview, Jim opens up to John

(49:29):
about his relationship withBilly, admitting that the bond
between them hadn't exactly beenplatonic.
Meanwhile, gossip around townis heating up down at the
Married Women's Card Club, whereCynthia Vaughn and her married
friends play a bridge game whilechit-chatting about the case

(49:50):
and how no gunpowder residue wasfound on Billy's hands,
directly contradicting Jim'sversion of the events.

Ashley (49:57):
So you laugh, but the Married Women's Card Club was
actually one of Savannah's mostexclusive societies that was
founded in 1893 by 16 women insearch of amusement during the
day while their husbands were atwork.
It always only had 16 members.
Once a month on a Tuesday,everyone gathered at someone's

(50:19):
house for two hours of cards,cocktails, and a light dinner.
Thirty-two guests were invitedby engraved invitation, so the
total women always was 48, andeveryone followed a strict
schedule down to when eachcocktail would be served.
If a member got divorced, shewas forced to resign.

Remi (50:39):
When the time finally comes to pick the jury, I'll
give you one guess as to whichcolorful character made the
final cut.
That's right, it's theBumblebee sweater guy with the
poison! The perfect man for thejob.
And why is that?
Well, in the words of Jim'sattorney, Sonny, hey, we're the
defense.
We need all the nuts we canget.

Ashley (51:01):
Yeah, Luther was not on the jury.

Remi (51:04):
Three days later, the trial finally begins.
The prosecutor, Finlay Largent,kicks things off first with his
opening statements, which go onand on for the next two hours.
Once finished, Sonny stands upfor the defense, gives his
opening remarks, and wrapseverything up in about two

(51:25):
minutes.
And quick sidebar here, thejudge during the trial was
played by Sonny Seller, the realattorney for Jim Williams
during the trials.
Over the next few days, theprosecution brings in one of the
detectives from the case whotestifies that there was no
gunshot residue found on Billy'shands.

(51:48):
This means that Billy's gun wasnever fired, and that the
entire crime scene was likelystaged.
Sonny fires back by showingphotos taken right after the
shooting.
In them you can clearly seeJohn inside Jim's house along
with seven other people, andeven a cat, all walking around

(52:10):
the scene doing God knows what,and if the place was that busy
after the fact, how can anyonetrust the evidence?
Next up on the witness stand isGeorge Tucker, a young man who
knew Billy personally and isbeing played by Michael
Rosenbaum.
How well did you know BillyHanson?

What kind of friends was he?
Yes, sir.
He's about my best friend inthe world.
We saw each other all the time.
There's nothing he wouldn't dofor me.
And nothing you wouldn't do forhim.
Look, if you're trying to sayI'm lying, I'm not.
Take it easy, young man.

(52:53):
How well did you know JimWilliams?
I mean, you never did meet him,did you?
Not shaking hands or nothing,but I stood next to him in the
emergency room when Billy O'D.
Billy Hansen overdosed ondrugs?
When was this?
About a month before Jim killedhim.

(53:15):
So Jim Williams took BillyHansen to the hospital and saved
his life.
I mean, if you wanted him dead,wh why would he do that?
I don't know.

Remi (53:28):
And this is just my personal opinion here, but I
think that Michael Rosenbaum,who also played Lex Luther on
Smallville, would have made away better Billy than Jude Law
did in this film.
But again, that's just mypersonal opinion.
During his cross-examination,George testifies that Jim would

(53:49):
often give Billy money wheneverhe needed it, and even bought
him a muscle car in exchange forsexual favors.
He also mentions that Jim couldget jealous quite easily, and
that the two of them would fightpretty often.
Elsewhere, after receiving hersubpoena, Lady Chablis crashes
the 40th Annual Alpha Phi BlackDebutante Ball at the Savannah

(54:14):
Cotillion Club, where John isalso in attendance.
After suggestively hobnobbingwith the upper class Boomonde,
Chablis takes to the center ofthe dance floor to boogie on
down to the classical stringversion of Richie Vallon's La
Bamba, stealing the entireevening in the process.

Ashley (54:34):
There is an entire chapter in the book about this
debutante ball, John beinginvited, and Lady Chablis
crashing it because she was madat John for not inviting her
with him.

Remi (54:45):
That's surprising.
I almost didn't even includethis because, again, it has
absolutely nothing to do withanything.

Ashley (54:53):
She did, however, not testify at the trial because she
had really no relationship withBilly slash Danny at all.

Remi (55:01):
Well, in the film, despite her initial trepidation about
testifying, Lady Chablis doesinevitably take to the stand.
She tells the court that sheknew Billy socially before he
started seeing her roommateCorinne, and explains that Billy
had a serious drug problem,regularly using weed, cocaine,

(55:23):
pills, and alcohol while dealinga little on the side.
Whenever Billy got high,though, his behavior would shift
dramatically, making himextremely hostile and often
violent.
Later, after drinks one night,John and Mandy sneak into the
morgue to get a look at some ofthe bodies with a little help

(55:45):
from a distraction courtesy ofLady Chablis.
While there, John finds outthat when Billy's body was first
brought in, his hands had notbeen bagged right away, which is
something that should have beendone immediately.
This mistake contradicts thedetective's earlier testimony
and means that Billy's handscould have potentially been

(56:08):
wiped clean any time before thetesting.
The next time John visits Jimin prison, Jim finally lays out
his version of the events thatfateful night.
Jim still claims that after aheated argument, Billy did pull
a gun on him and pull thetrigger, but the safety had
still been on, which prohibitedits discharge.

(56:30):
While Billy fumbled with hisweapon, Jim grabbed his own
pistol from his top desk drawer,shooting Billy once in the
chest, knocking him to theground.
As Billy lay there bleeding,Jim ended his life by shooting
him twice more, then staged thecrime scene to appear as though
Billy had opened fire first.
Jim initially plans on giving afull confession, but after

(56:55):
learning of the investigation'sscrew up with the bagging of
Billy's hands, decides toinstead continue keeping this
admission under wraps between heand John for the time being.

Ashley (57:09):
Hmm, how convenient.

Remi (57:11):
In court, Sonny calls the administrative nurse on duty the
night Billy's body was broughtin, who testifies that Billy's
hands were actually bagged muchlater than originally believed.
Finally, Jim takes the standand explains that he first met
Billy when he hired him to doodd jobs around the house.

(57:33):
Around that time, Jim says hebegan struggling with
hypoglycemia, and Billy startedstaying over to help him when he
wasn't feeling well.
Over time, their relationshipbecame intimate.
Jim goes on to say that on thenight Billy died, Billy showed
up extremely high and they gotinto an argument about an

(57:54):
upcoming trip to London.
Jim was planning to attend anauction and wanted Billy to come
along because of his healthcondition.
Billy insisted on bringingmarijuana with him, and since
Jim strongly disapproved ofdrugs, he told Billy he couldn't
come if he chose to do that.
The argument escalated andBilly knocked over a large

(58:18):
antique clock out in thehallway.
Back in his office, Jim saysthat he tried to call the
police, but Billy followed him,brandishing a gun and shouted, I
may leave tomorrow, but goddamn it, you're leaving tonight.
As Jim reached for the luger hekept in his desk drawer, Billy

(58:39):
fired two shots, narrowlymissing him, which Jim claims
caused him to shoot backinstinctively without even
thinking.
During the defense's closingstatements, I began
contemplating how if this moviewas remade today, Sonny would
absolutely be being played bylegendary character actor Steven
Root.

(58:59):
Anyway, after an indeterminateamount of deliberation, the jury
unanimously finds Jim Williamsnot guilty on all charges.

Ashley (59:10):
It was one hour.

Remi (59:12):
Despite the trial being over, John is urgently beckoned
from his hotel room that nightby Minerva, who takes John on an
eerie boat ride through a foggyswamp to Billy's grave.
Once there, the two of themdrink some wild turkey while
Minerva talks to Billy's grave.
And honestly, I'm not exactlysure what she's trying to do

(59:36):
here.
Maybe raise the dead orsomething, who knows?

Ashley (59:39):
She's trying to make sure his angry spirit stays away
from Jim.

Remi (59:44):
The next day, Jim invites John to a daytime cocktail party
he's throwing and gifts him anoverpainting of Newmarket Heath
as a token of his appreciation.
And sidebar here, this is areal painting by artist George
Stubbs from 1765.

(01:00:05):
It was sold at a Christie'sauction in London on July 5th,
2011, for 22.4 million euros,which is the equivalent of
approximately 35.9 milliondollars.
Quite the parting gift he isgiving to John.

(01:00:25):
As John gets ready to leave, heasks Jim one last time what
really happened that night.
After lighting his cigar, Jimsmirks and slyly responds,
Truth, like art, is in the eyeof the beholder.
Moments after John leaves, Jimis seemingly attacked by voodoo

(01:00:47):
magic, grabs his chest andsuddenly collapses from a heart
attack and dies.
Our story concludes with Johnmoving in with Mandy and
settling into a life down inSavannah, while Minerva finally
makes peace with the squirrelshe had been squabbling with
from the beginning of the film.
And that was Clint Eastwood'sMidnight and the Garden of Good

(01:01:10):
and Evil.
Do you have any initialthoughts, Ashley?

Ashley (01:01:14):
I do.
As I was reading this book, Iwas just floored because there's
a lot of supporting random asscharacters that I'm sure are
mentioned in the film that Remyjust omitted for time's sake.
And every one of thesecharacters has at least one
chapter.
Several of them have multiplechapters that are just dedicated

(01:01:37):
to them and what they weredoing during the eight years the
author lived in Savannah, butnone of them have anything to do
with the murder.
It is kind of weird to me thatall these people were included.
And because of that, spoileralert, Jim Williams didn't have
one trial.
He didn't have two trials.

(01:01:57):
He didn't even have threetrials.
He had four.
All of that was condensed to beable to fit in all of these
random side stories.
It just seems like a weirdchoice to me.

Remi (01:02:08):
I agree.
It's one of those things whereif you live in kind of a quirky
town for a while, you'll meetlocals who are equally as
quirky.
And that seems to be whathappened to John while he was
living in Savannah.
He was meeting all of theseweird, interesting people who
really have absolutely nothingto do with Jim Williams, but he

(01:02:31):
still thought they were quirkyand interesting enough to be
worth mentioning in some way inthis novel.
And I had a similar problem asyou did, Ashley, when I was
watching the film, as you didwhile reading the novel, where
these people were kind of comingin and out that have nothing to
do with anything, and I washaving trouble taking notes

(01:02:52):
because a lot of this has nobearing on the plot.

Ashley (01:02:56):
And it's not like this is a short book or short movie.
Both are extremely lengthy andboth could have been streamlined
in their own different ways.

Remi (01:03:06):
This was a two and a half hour movie.
If you cut out all of the wackycharacters on the side, this
could have been two hours easy.

Ashley (01:03:14):
But what I will say, I do think the casting was done
pretty well.
From the scenes that I saw,even though you complained about
Jude Law's performance, in theone scene I saw, he was
depicting who his inspirationwas painted to be.
John Cusack just has adumbfounded, shocked look on his
face in every single scene.

(01:03:35):
Like he is just a completelyout-of-place person, which is
how he comes across in the book.
And Jim Williams, to me, isKevin Spacey.

Remi (01:03:44):
And apparently that is a big reason why Clint Eastwood
casted John Cusack in this role,because Gross Point Blank is a
comedy.
And a lot of that movie'scomedy is based on John Cusack
having facial reactions to weirdor crazy shit going on.
He's very good at being thestraight man who's in an absurd

(01:04:06):
scenario and just kind of givingthat look or expression that
the audience just understands asjust like, can you believe this
shit?

Ashley (01:04:14):
In every single scene that you showed me, his mouth is
agape and he's just likelooking around at everyone with
that look on his face.
Like, is this really happening?
Is anyone else shocked?
No?
That's kind of disturbing mefurther.

Remi (01:04:27):
He doesn't have a lot to do in this film, but he does a
good job with what he has.

Ashley (01:04:32):
What did you think of the movie?

Remi (01:04:34):
It's a mixed bag of nuts for me, I gotta say.
There are some goodperformances, some interesting
aspects, but it's kind of amess.
It's all over the place.
There are parts of the storythat are condensed, and there's
other parts that are includedthat really have nothing to do
with anything.
I don't know, I feel likethere's another version of this

(01:04:57):
film that maybe is a bit morefocused that could have been a
lot better.
But I think the performances init are almost across the board
great.
I still don't think Jude Law isvery good, but Lady Chablis,
who I don't think acted inanything after this, is stealing
the show in every scene thatshe's in.

Ashley (01:05:17):
Well, let's get into post-production.

Remi (01:05:19):
After filming Rapped in June of 1997, the production
celebrated by holding afundraiser for Savannah's
historic Lucas Theater, a 1921landmark that had fallen into
disrepair over the years.
Kevin Spacey personally donated$200,000 in Jim Williams'

(01:05:40):
honor, towards the theater's$7.6 million restoration.
Spacey spoke fondly of Savannahand even promised to bring a
play there someday once thetheater had been reopened.
I do not know if he everfollowed up on this promise.
The plan was for Midnight inthe Garden of Good and Evil to

(01:06:00):
premiere at the newly restoredLucas Theater, but numerous
renovation delays led to theevent eventually being
rescheduled to November 17th atWarner Brothers Studios in
Burbank.
The Savannah screening at theJohnny Mercer Theater followed
three days later, with JimWilliams' sister, Dorothy

(01:06:20):
Kingry, hosting her own privategathering inside Mercer House as
the premiere took place.
When the movie finally hittheaters nationwide, it
struggled to find an audience.
With the production budget ofaround $30 million, the film
grossed just $25 milliondomestically and was considered
a box office disappointment.

(01:06:42):
Reviews were decidedly mixed aswell, with the film currently
holding a 51% approval rating onRotten Tomatoes, with a
critical consensus that reads,Clint Eastwood's spare
directorial style proves an illfit for this Southern potboiler,
which dutifully trudges throughits mystery while remaining

(01:07:06):
disinterested in the culturalflourishes that gave its source
material its sense of intrigue.

Ashley (01:07:13):
That's what it kind of felt to me as you were
describing it, that it was justa mismatch between director and
the book.
And honestly, I don't thinkthat this book should have been
adapted as honestly as it was tothe screen.
I don't think we needed all ofthese supporting characters.
I think we just needed a morehonest and straightforward story

(01:07:35):
about the murder of DannyHansford, aka Billy Hansen.

Remi (01:07:41):
And I totally agree with you, but despite the film's
paltry reception, ClintEastwood's career continued to
climb.
Between 2004 and 2015, hepicked up eight more Academy
Award nominations, winning twoAcademy Awards for Million
Dollar Baby in 2005 for BestPicture and Best Director.

(01:08:05):
Today, Clint Eastwood is 95years young, with around 40
feature films under his belt asdirector alone.
His most recent film, JurorNumber 2, came out just last
year in 2024, and is honestlycriminally underrated, so if you

(01:08:26):
haven't seen it, you shouldreally check it out.

Ashley (01:08:29):
It's really, really, really good.

Remi (01:08:32):
As for Kevin Spacey's performance, author John Barrent
said in a 2015 interview thathe was not impressed, and that
Spacey had completely missed themark.
Barrent claimed to have offeredSpacey tapes of the real Jim
Williams telling stories fromhis living room in Mercer House,

(01:08:54):
but Spacey declined, sayingthat he had already listened to
the courtroom recordings.
When Barrent finally saw thefilm, he was outright
flabbergasted by Spacey's flatand detached portrayal of
Williams, which Barrent laterblamed on Spacey likely basing

(01:09:14):
his performance on the thirdtrial's recordings when Jim
Williams was reportedly onValium.

Ashley (01:09:21):
Interesting.
Do you feel like Kevin Spaceywas flat in this?

Remi (01:09:25):
I thought Kevin Spacey was fine, but I did not know the
real Jim Williams, and I couldnot find any footage or
recordings of him, so I reallyhave nothing to base that off of
other than what I saw KevinSpacey do.
Spacey's performance as JimWilliams is still one of the
most talked-about aspects of thefilm, with the similarities

(01:09:47):
between Spacey and his charactergrowing disturbingly more
apparent over the years.
Both men moved in privilegedcircles and cultivated an air of
charm and control while keepingparts of their private lives
carefully hidden.
Spacey would go on to win hissecond Oscar in 2000 for
American Beauty, a film that,let's be honest, hasn't aged

(01:10:11):
particularly well.
Years later, Spacey played asimilarly underhanded Southerner
as Frank Underwood in theNetflix TV series House of
Cards, using almost the exactsame voice and accent that he
had for Jim Williams.
In March of 2017, Spacey wascast as J.

(01:10:33):
Paul Getty in All the Money inthe World, directed by Ridley
Scott, which we previouslycovered on our podcast in Season
3, Episode 10.
On October 29, 2017, actorAnthony Rapp publicly alleged
that Spacey made an unwantedsexual advance towards him at a

(01:10:53):
party in 1986 when Rapp was only14 and Spacey was 27.
Spacey responded shortly aftervia Twitter, saying he did not
remember the incident andapologized for what he described
as deeply inappropriate drunkenbehavior.
After Rapp's allegation, moreaccusers came forward, with

(01:11:16):
multiple people alleging thatthey had also experienced sexual
harassment and misconduct atthe hands of Spacey.

Ashley (01:11:24):
And again, go to HBO and watch the documentary.
The allegations are sodisturbing.

Remi (01:11:33):
I know people personally who had experiences with Spacey,
not to the same degree as someof these others, which I will
not go into because those aretheir stories and I don't feel
comfortable sharing them here.
But he was a very sexuallyaggressive man.
I'm just gonna put it that way.

(01:11:53):
On November 3rd, 2017, Netflixannounced it was severing ties
with Spacey and would not havehim involved in any capacity on
any future projects, and wouldbe suspending production on
season six of House of Cards.
The show later premiered itsfinal season of just eight

(01:12:14):
episodes on November 2nd, 2018,with Spacey's character dying
off-screen and Robin Wrighttaking over as the lead, playing
Frank's wife, Claire Underwood.
The film All the Money in theWorld ended up recasting
Spacey's role entirely, and onNovember 8, 2017, the studio
announced that ChristopherPlummer would be his

(01:12:36):
replacement.
From 2018 to 2022, multiplejurisdictions opened
investigations into Spacey, withvarious charges being made,
dropped, or otherwise resolvedin different cases.
On Christmas Eve, 2018, merehours after Massachusetts
prosecutors announced indecentassault charges against him,

(01:12:59):
Spacey posted a three-minutevideo on YouTube called Let Me
Be Frank, delivered in characteras Frank Underwood from House
of Cards.

Kevin Spacey (01:13:11):
You want me back.
Of course, some believedeverything and have just been
waiting with bated breath tohear me confess it all.
They're just dying to have medeclare that everything said is
true and that I got what Ideserved.
Wouldn't that be easy?
If it was all so simple?
Only you and I both know it'snever that simple, not in

(01:13:32):
politics and not in life.
But you wouldn't believe theworst without evidence, would
you?
You wouldn't rush to judgmentswithout facts, would you?
Did you?

Ashley (01:13:44):
If anyone has not seen this full video, go and watch it
on YouTube right now.
I remember when it was droppedand watching it thinking, this
guy is unhinged.

Remi (01:13:56):
Well, Spacey went on to film three more videos in
character as Frank Underwood,titled Let Me Be Frank 2, 1-800
X-Myth, and Once Again, whichwere released annually every
year on December 24th, beforefinally ending the Unwanted

(01:14:17):
Yearly Tradition in 2021.

Ashley (01:14:19):
I think I only saw the first two.

Remi (01:14:22):
I've only seen the first one, so we have a little evening
ahead of us, apparently.
Spacey was found not liable inthe suit brought against him by
Anthony Rapp in a New York civilcourt in 2022.
Spacey also faced trial forsexual assault charges in the
UK, and in July of 2023, a juryfound him not guilty of the

(01:14:45):
remaining nine charges.
Despite the legal findings inhis favor, the stigma and
professional challenges forSpacey have continued.
His publicist and agency haveboth abandoned him, many of his
former collaborators havedistanced themselves, and his
entire career was essentiallycancelled.

(01:15:07):
Though his reputation remainsseverely impacted, Spacey has
made a few partial attempts at areturn, but thankfully none
have succeeded.
And on a personal note, let mejust close by saying, Fuck you,
Kevin Spacey.
And that was Clint Eastwood'sMidnight in the Garden of Good

(01:15:32):
and Evil.
But this is just one jumbled-upmix version of the story, which
is apparently including a lotof wacky characters and
excluding a lot of accurateinformation, which is where I
believe you come in, MissAshley.
Do you want to set the recordstraight for everyone?
Because I'm willing to bet thatthere are a few inconsistencies

(01:15:56):
here.

Ashley (01:15:57):
Let's do it.
Jim had a modest upbringing.

(01:16:37):
In high school, he developed aneye for objects other people
overlooked.
He started buying smalltrinkets, like old oil lamps for
a quarter, fixing them up andreselling them for twice the
price he paid.
As his profits grew, so too didthe scale of his fines.
He graduated to mirrors andfurniture, restoring each piece

(01:16:59):
in a makeshift woodworking shopand selling them through ads in
the local paper.
William studied piano at MiddleGeorgia College before
switching past and enrolling inthe interior design program at
Ringling College in Sarasota,Florida.

Remi (01:17:14):
Hey, shout out to Sarasota.

Ashley (01:17:16):
After two years, he transferred to Mercer University
in Mackin, Georgia.
In 1952, following a briefstint in the Air Force, he
settled in Savannah.
He spent a year working in afurniture store, then struck out
on his own, opening a smallshop specializing in antiques.
At age 24, he purchased andpersonally restored three

(01:17:40):
buildings, a career move thatmarked the beginning of his
legacy.
Williams found success almostimmediately.
He became a central figure inthe restoration of Savannah's
historic district, a movementthat took off in the mid-1950s.
Over the course of his life, herestored more than 50 homes in
Savannah and surrounding areas,built a thriving antiques

(01:18:04):
empire, accumulated considerablewealth, and cemented himself as
a major player in Savannahsociety.

Remi (01:18:11):
50 homes, that's pretty impressive.

Ashley (01:18:13):
And these aren't just like your average houses.
These are huge historicmansions that few people lived
in.
They were more things thatbecame kind of like event
centers and ballrooms.

Remi (01:18:24):
They were like historic buildings.

Ashley (01:18:26):
In 1966, he bought the small coastal cabbage island for
$5,000.
Locals thought he'd been duped.
The island was listed for halfthat amount the year before.
But Williams had the lastlaugh.
When phosphates were discoveredunder several nearby islands,
he sold it for $660,000.

(01:18:47):
And that's 1966 money, so it'smillions he made from this.

Remi (01:18:52):
Not too shabby.

Ashley (01:18:53):
With his new fortune, he purchased the historic Mercer
House, a three-story, 7,000square foot mansion built during
the Civil War by General HughMercer.
And it became the childhoodhome of singer-songwriter Johnny
Mercer.
The house was so esteemed thatJackie Onassis once offered $2

(01:19:14):
million for it.
Williams spent the next twoyears restoring Mercer House,
unveiling his work at a lavishChristmas party in 1970.
The annual event became one ofSavannah's most coveted
invitations, with everysocialite praying for an invite.
In the late 70s, Williams had achance encounter with

(01:19:34):
19-year-old Danny Hansford.
One afternoon, Hansfordhappened to be riding by on his
bike just as Williams arrivedhome.
Hearing that Williams oftenhired people with little
experience to work in hisrestoration shop, Hansford
boldly asked for a job.
He began working part-time,stripping old finishes off
furniture, moving heavy pieces,and handling various odd jobs.

(01:19:58):
Unlike Williams, Hansford had atroubled past.
One of three sons born inSavannah, he spent his younger
years in and out of juvenilehomes and psychiatric hospitals,
dropped out of school in theeighth grade, became homeless at
age 15, and turned toprostitution.
He also had a terrible temper.
Throughout Williams' fourtrials, numerous witnesses

(01:20:23):
provided testimony illustratinghow Hansford could erupt at the
slightest provocation.
But despite his temper andinconsistent work habits,
Williams grew fond of him.
Around 1979, he even beganliving at Mercer House and
became Williams' intermittentsexual partner.
But the stability of thearrangement did little to soften

(01:20:44):
his anger.
Williams told author JohnBarrent several stories about
Hansford damaging property,getting into fights, and calling
in the middle of the night forbail money after alcohol or
drug-fueled rages.
One of the most severe episodesunfolded on April 3, 1981.
And take special notice to thisbecause this incident is going

(01:21:06):
to come up multiple times atWilliams' future trials.
According to Williams, Hansfordwas already on edge that night,
upset over a friend's insultabout his car and frustrated by
his girlfriend's refusal tomarry him unless he found a
full-time job.
Fueled by alcohol and anger, hestomped on a table, hurled a
lamp and glass pitcher againstthe wall, and even fired a shot

(01:21:29):
from one of Williams' pistolsinto his bedroom floor.
Before running outside to tryto shoot out a streetlight, he
allegedly shouted, How damn maddo I have to make you before you
kill me?
When Williams called thepolice, Hansford went upstairs
and pretended to be asleep.
He was arrested, but Williamsbailed him out the next morning.

(01:21:50):
Despite the chaos of thisnight, Williams soon asked
Hansford to accompany him to anupcoming European antique spying
trip.
He claimed he needed acompanion due to worsening
hypoglycemic blackouts.
A few weeks later, Hansfordmentioned that he was trying to
figure out how to smugglemarijuana onto the plane for
personal use during the trip.

(01:22:11):
That prompted Williams toinvite another employee, Joe
Goodman, instead.
A decision Danny didn't seem tomind.
A few weeks later, on the nightof May 2nd, 1981, the tension
between Williams and Hansforderupted again, this time
fatally.
We'll never know for certainwhat happened that night, but
this is how Williams describedit to the police, media, and at

(01:22:34):
trial.
On the night of the shooting,Williams and Hansford returned
home from a drive-in moviearound midnight.
Over the course of the evening,Hansford smoked nine joins and
drank half a pint of whiskey.

Remi (01:22:47):
Wow, nine joints?
That's pretty high.

Ashley (01:22:51):
While playing some games, Hansford spiraled into
another rage.
He ranted about his motherputting him in detention
centers, claiming she hated himbecause he resembled the father
she divorced.
He again fumed about his friendGeorge Hill wanting his car and
his girlfriend Bonnie refusingto marry him because he couldn't
hold down a steady job.
Then he turned on Williams,saying, And you took away my

(01:23:15):
trip to Europe before stompingon the Atari game console.
As Williams stood to leave,Hansford grabbed him by the
throat and threw him against adoor.
Williams retreated into hisstudy to call for help, but
Hansford followed, demanding toknow who he was calling.
Williams told him to speak withJoe Goodman to confirm the

(01:23:35):
European trip was off.
Goodman later said he spokebriefly with both men around
2.05 a.m.
But this call did little totemper Hansford's rage.
Williams said he picked up asilver tankard, threatening to
throw it through a painting.
Fed up with all the propertydestruction, Williams ordered
Hansford to leave.
He heard more crashing in theliving room, which turned out to

(01:23:59):
be a couple broken cups, maybea broken chair, and a
tipped-over grandfather clock.
After several minutes, Hansfordreturned holding a gun.
While pointing it, he allegedlystated, I'm leaving tomorrow,
but you're leaving tonight.
He fired the gun at Williams,who was sitting at his desk, but
all three shots missed beforethe gun jammed.

(01:24:22):
Williams then reached into hisdesk drawer, grabbed another
pistol, and fired.
Panicked, Williams called JoeGoodman once again, then his
lawyer, then the police.
The time was now about 3 a.m.
All three parties arrived atalmost the same time.
Williams met them at the doorand calmly stated, I just shot

(01:24:44):
him.
He's in the other room.
Oddly, the first officer at thescene, Corporal Michael
Anderson, was the same officerwho arrested Hansford during the
April incident just a monthprior.
Hansford was found laying facedown dead on the floor of
Williams' study.
He had three gunshot wounds,one each to his chest, back, and

(01:25:05):
behind his ear.
Two pistols were recovered, andHansford's hand was lightly
cupped over one.
Williams was escorted to policeheadquarters at 7 a.m.,
formally charged with murder andheld on a $25,000 bond.
Instead of calling hisattorney, he phoned his friend
Goodman and told him where hecould find a bag of cash.

(01:25:27):
He was bailed out just 15minutes later.
Williams gave at least twointerviews to the local press in
the subsequent days.
He claimed self-defense andwent calmly about his affairs.
Four days after the shooting,he petitioned the court for
permission to travel to Europefor a week on an antique spying
trip.
The judge raised his bond to$100,000 and let him go.

(01:25:51):
Locals drew their ownconclusions about the case long
before forensic testing wascompleted.
Stories about Hansford'stroubled upbringing and
uncontrollable rages circulated.
Neighbors recalled seeing himscream and break things.
There were also tales about howhis own family was afraid of
him and fought for protectiveorders.

(01:26:12):
Popular opinions seemed tosupport Williams' narrative of
self-defense.
In interviews, Williamsdescribed Hansford as severely
disturbed.
He claimed he bailed Hansfordout of jail nine times in the
past 10 months, and that heattempted suicide twice via drug
overdose.
Though Williams never fullyexplained their relationship,

(01:26:34):
only referring to Hansford as apart-time employee, several
people who knew Hansford wereaware about his sexual
relationship with Williams andhis continued work as a male
hustler.
But the elite of Savannah werepretty much completely unaware
of him.
Williams was formally indictedfor first-degree murder on June
17, 1981.

(01:26:56):
This charge meant that Williamskilled Hansford with foresight
and malice.
Many Savannians felt the chargewas excessive and believed
involuntary manslaughter wouldhave been more appropriate,
given all that was known aboutthe case thus far.
Nonetheless, Williams' trialwas set to begin in January
1982.

(01:27:17):
In the meantime, he went backto Europe once more, hosted his
annual Christmas party, andresumed his old routines.
He showed little remorse,insisting publicly that he did
nothing wrong.

Remi (01:27:30):
So he was just kind of going about his life, despite
all this mounting legal pressureall around him.

Ashley (01:27:37):
A few days after the indictment, Hansford's mom,
39-year-old Emily Bannister,filed a civil suit against
Williams, seeking $10 million indamages plus funeral expenses.
This civil case would be put onhold until the criminal
proceedings were done.
Williams assembled a formidablelegal team, led by John Wright

(01:27:59):
Jones, one of Savannah's betterknown criminal defense lawyers.
Joining him was Bobby Lee Cook,a renowned attorney from
Somerville.
Cook had defended over 250people accused of murder with a
remarkable success rate.
He was known for taking casesmost lawyers wanted nothing to
do with.
People magazine once wrote, Ifthe devil ever needed a defense,

(01:28:23):
Bobby Lee Cook would take thecase.
Tests revealed no gunpowderresidue on Hansford's hands, and
the location of the bulletwounds raised questions.
While one did enter his chest,the position of the body

(01:28:46):
suggested that the other twowere fired while he was face
down on the floor.
Lastly, the gun found nearHansford's body had no
fingerprints, indicating it mayhave been white clean.
None of this looked good forWilliams.
His attorneys met with thecoroner of Catham County, Dr.
James Metz, wanting to know ifthere was any possible scenario

(01:29:08):
in which Hansford could havebeen standing upright when all
three bullets were fired.
Dr.
Metz couldn't know for certainif Hansford was standing up or
laying down, but he offered apossible explanation.
The force of the first bullet,which hit Hansford in the chest,
could have caused him to spin,resulting in the last two shots

(01:29:28):
hitting him from behind beforehe fell.
Other details hinted at apossibly staged crime scene.
Although Hansford's hand wasresting on top of the gun, there
was no blood transfer orfingerprints on it.
This led investigators tospeculate that Williams moved
Hansford's hand, perhaps tobetter align with his story.

Remi (01:29:49):
So his fingerprints weren't on the trigger?

Ashley (01:29:52):
There was no fingerprints or blood or
anything on that gun.

Remi (01:29:56):
So his hand was just lightly resting on top of it.

Ashley (01:29:59):
On top of it or by it, but his hand did have blood on
it, probably because he clutchedhis chest when he was shot, but
there was no No blood on thegun.
Additionally, there was bloodsmear near Hansford's body, like
his hand had been dragged fromout underneath him.
Perhaps Williams checked hispulse after he shot him,
panicked, and tried to cover uphis tracks?

(01:30:21):
Even small objects in the roomseemed out of place.
A chair leg was found on top ofHanford's pant leg, suggesting
a hurried rearrangement afterthe shooting.

Remi (01:30:33):
I have a quick question.

Ashley (01:30:39):
They were both Williams' guns.
He had several pistols kind ofstashed around the house because
he had reportedly been robbed afew times, so he had them for
protection.
Adding context to theatmosphere in Savannah at the
time, in early 1981, the citywitnessed another high-profile
case.
A 33-year-old man visiting tojudge a beauty pageant was

(01:31:01):
stomped to death in a parkinggarage by four Army Rangers.
The men claimed the victim, amarried man with two children,
made a homosexual advance,leading them to brutalize him
beyond all recognition.
It is disgusting to me thatthis used to be an acceptable
defense.
A few days before Hansford'smurder, the defendants were

(01:31:22):
found not guilty of murder, butinstead of misdemeanor simple
battery.
They were sentenced to one yearin jail with the chance of
release after just six months,sparking public outrage.

Remi (01:31:37):
That is a fucking travesty of justice right there.
That's horrendous.

Ashley (01:31:42):
This case was prosecuted by the newly elected district
attorney, 37-year-old SpencerLawton Jr.
Sidebar, hisgreat-great-grandfather was one
of the founders of the AmericanBar Association.
And since this was SpencerLawton Jr.'s first case and it
ended so controversially, hedesperately needed and wanted a

(01:32:05):
better outcome.

Remi (01:32:07):
I mean, he's gotta live up to his family's legacy.
They did invent the bar, afterall.

Ashley (01:32:21):
Williams's first trial began on January 25th, 1982.
The courtroom was filled tocapacity, though Miss Bannister,
Hansford's mother, wasnoticeably absent.
Turns out, defense attorneyBobby Lee Cook feared she might
create a scene and prejudice thejury.
To prevent this, he listed heras a defense witness to bar her

(01:32:44):
from the courtroom, even thoughhe had no intention of ever
calling her.

Remi (01:32:49):
That is very underhanded.

Ashley (01:32:52):
It's really despicable.
This is her son.
The prosecution opened bycalling the police dispatcher,
who testified that they receivedthe call reporting the shooting
at 2.58 a.m.
Joe Goodman also testified thatWilliams called him around 2.20
to report that he shotHansford, leaving a gap of more
than 30 minutes between thosecalls.

(01:33:14):
Other prosecution witnessesreconstructed the shooting to
support their theory.
Williams allegedly fired onceacross his desk at an unarmed
Hansford, circled the desk, andfired twice more at point blank
range.
Then, he supposedly picked up asecond gun, fired three times
towards where he would have beensitting behind the desk, wiped

(01:33:36):
his fingerprints off the weapon,and repositioned Hansford's
hand over the gun.
During that 30-minute breakbetween phone calls, he
allegedly smashed objects in thehouse to stage the scene before
calling 911.
To support this theory, theprosecution highlighted several
inconsistencies.
Tracing of the bullettrajectory suggested Williams

(01:33:59):
was standing near Hansford'shead when he fired at the desk,
not where his feet would havebeen.
There was also a bulletfragment on his chair, which
couldn't have been there ifWilliams was seated when it was
fired.
Officers also found an unfiredbullet in the middle of the
floor.
The prosecution also pointedout a dejected bullet from

(01:34:21):
Danny's gun in the middle of thefloor, the smeared blood from
his hand, and the chair legresting on Hanford's pantcuff.
They also pointed out the lackof gunshot residue on his hands.
They concluded their case withtestimony from Dr.
Larry Howard of the State CrimeLab, who described the scene as

(01:34:41):
contrived.
The defense countered withtheir own team of witnesses.
The star expert witness was Dr.
Joseph Burton, a medicalexaminer from Miami and Atlanta
who performed over 7,000autopsies, including nine
victims of the infamous Atlantachild murders.
Do you know that case, Remy?

Remi (01:35:01):
I am not familiar with that one, no.

Ashley (01:35:03):
So this case references 30 people, mostly teenagers,
young adults, and some children,that were murdered in Atlanta
between 1979 and 1981.
There was someone who wasconvicted of it, Wayne Williams.
He's thought to be a serialkiller.
He was sentenced to life inprison.
He was only convicted of two ofthe murders, but he's suspected

(01:35:25):
to have committed them all.
And there might be somequestions as to whether this man
is responsible.

Remi (01:35:32):
Is this the one where they caught him like returning to
the crime scene that was like ata bridge or something like
that?

Ashley (01:35:39):
Yes.

Remi (01:35:40):
Okay, I do remember this one now.

Ashley (01:35:43):
Dr.
Barton cast doubt on theaccuracy of the tests the crime
lab used to analyze Hansford'shands for gunshot residue.

Remi (01:35:52):
There is a scene in the film where Jim's attorney is
discussing the fact that theyhave an expert on the
prosecution side that's gonnasay that there was no gun
residue on the victim's hands.
And Jim's attorney's responseis, well, we'll just find our
own expert.

Ashley (01:36:10):
Well, according to Dr.
Burton, the atomic absorptionmethod that the crime lab used
was unreliable and widelydisregarded in the field of
forensic pathology.
He cited a research study thathe actually conducted out of
Atlanta, in which the testyielded negative results 60% of

(01:36:31):
the time in his sample ofpersons who were known to have
committed suicide with afirearm.
So to him, the results of thistest were of little to no
significance.
Dr.
Burton also visited MercerHouse multiple times to reenact
the shooting, concluding thatall shots likely came from
behind the desk.
He testified that it would havebeen physically impossible for

(01:36:54):
Williams to have fired the shotsfrom anywhere else based on
where the bullets entered andexited Hansford's body.

Remi (01:37:01):
Impossible, okay.

Ashley (01:37:04):
Yeah, that's a big conclusive statement there.
He argued that the angles ofthe bullet wounds, bone
fragments, hair found in thecorner of the room, and blood
spatter all aligned with therapid sequence of shots fired
from behind the desk, with thefirst causing Hansford's body to
spin before falling.
As for the smeared blood, Dr.

(01:37:25):
Burton explained that it mighthave been the result of Hansford
dropping the gun and clutchinghis chest before falling to the
floor.
And then basically his handjust kind of moved or fell out
from under him.

Remi (01:37:37):
Very convenient.

Ashley (01:37:39):
Several witnesses also testified about Hansford's
history of violence.
For example, a psychiatristfrom Georgia Regional Hospital
recounted instances of propertydamage, threats, and his need
for seclusion and restraint forthe safety of himself and
others.
And this is when he was achild.
So I think it's pretty fuckedup that the judge allowed

(01:38:00):
evidence of his mental statewhen he was not an adult into
the trial.

Remi (01:38:06):
Well, how old was he when he was shot?
He was still very young.

Ashley (01:38:10):
21.

Remi (01:38:11):
So he was only legally an adult for three years at that
point.
So I guess they needed toinclude additional material.

Ashley (01:38:19):
Many upstanding citizens of Savannah were also called to
vouch for Williams' character.
The last witness was someoneeveryone was waiting to hear
from, Jim Williams.
On direct, he came across asconfident and composed.
He recounted meeting Danny inthe April 3rd incident before
telling his recollection of theshooting in detail.

(01:38:42):
But he became cold and evasiveduring cross, especially during
questions about the nature ofhis relationship with Danny
Hansford.
On rebuttal, the prosecutioncalled two young men to
challenge Williams' narrative.
Both men knew Hansford well andWilliams peripherally.
They were well aware of thesexual relationship between the

(01:39:04):
two, something the defense wasclearly trying to keep from the
jury.
In closing arguments, theprosecution attempted to frame
the April 3rd incident as aprelude or a setup for murder.
You see, during priortestimony, the officer who
arrested Hansford that nighttestified that he couldn't
determine if the bullet hole inthe floor was fresh or

(01:39:27):
pre-existing.
And DA Lawton ran with thatremark in closing, suggesting
that it was made before theApril 3rd incident and that
Williams used Hansford's arrestto lay the groundwork for
committing murder and claimingself-defense.
So he's basically arguing thatthere was an argument on April
3rd, but the bullet hole thatwas found in the ground could

(01:39:50):
have been from a prior incidentand this was all some sort of
big setup for Williams to beable to kill him later.
It does seem like a stretch tome.
On February 2nd, 1982, afterjust three hours of
deliberation, Williams was foundguilty.
He was immediately sentenced tolife in prison, as mandated by
Georgia law.

(01:40:10):
However, just two days later,he was released on a $200,000
bond pending appeal.
He returned to his antiquesbusiness and, with the court's
permission, traveled to New Yorkto attend a party at a museum.
While he still receivedinvitations to dine and
socialize, his status inSavannah society was slowly

(01:40:31):
eroding.
Privately, he expressed deepbitterness.
He resented the indignity ofbeing charged with murder in the
first place, convinced from theoutset that his version of
events would be accepted and thecase would just resolve quickly
and quietly.
He later told author JohnBarrent that he had been

(01:40:51):
particularly frustrated by thepolice investigation, accusing
officers of wandering throughMercer House like they were on a
tour of Versailles, staying forfour hours and enjoying
themselves in the house.
Which this is kind of true.
Police arrived around 3:30 andhe wasn't taken out of the home
until 7, and there was a lot ofpolice officers on the scene.
This was not a well-securedcrime scene in the least.

Remi (01:41:15):
That is also depicted in the film.

Ashley (01:41:20):
He even joked that if Hansford's mother won her
lawsuit, he would blow up thehouse to ensure she could never
get possession of it.

Remi (01:41:28):
That's a little extreme.

Ashley (01:41:30):
Williams' appeal of his conviction made it all the way
to the Georgia Supreme Court.
They focused their attention onthe hole in the bedroom floor
upstairs.
Remember, in closing arguments,the prosecution argued that the
bullet hole was older than whenHansford was arrested, further
claiming it was staged tosupport Williams' self-defense
narrative.

(01:41:51):
In their appellate petition,Bobby Lee Cook cited an envelope
he was mailed by an anonymoussource in the DA's office a few
weeks after Williams wasconvicted.
Inside was a copy of the April3rd police report written by the
arresting officer, whichexplicitly stated, we did find a
fresh bullet hole in the floor,contradicting the testimony he

(01:42:15):
gave at trial.
Prior to the trial, the defensehad obtained an edited version
of this report, but thiscritical line had been whited
out.
In January 1983, the GeorgiaSupreme Court overturned
Williams' conviction on thegrounds of prosecutorial
misconduct.
You can't just edit out partsof evidence that you think hurts

(01:42:37):
your narrative.
So this was a good call by theSupreme Court here.
The prosecution announced rightaway that they would be
retrying the case.
Bobby Lee Cook had to withdrawdue to a scheduling conflict.
Replacing him was Frank SonnySeller, a prominent Savannah
attorney representing Williamson the civil case.
In Seller's view, the biggestflaw from the first trial was

(01:43:00):
the defense not addressingWilliams and Hanford's sexual
relationship directly.
Williams was reluctant to talkabout it in court, but agreed to
do so once Seller assured himhe would make sure his mom was
ushered out of the room when itcame to that point.
Seller also developed extensivequestions to make sure anyone
with homophobic biases wereweeded out during jury

(01:43:22):
selection.
The defense commissionedindependent forensic testing on
the guns and Hanford's clothing.
They hired Dr.
Irving Stone of the ForensicScience Institute in Dallas, the
man who analyzed the clothingof President Kennedy and
Governor Collony for theCongressional Committee that
re-examined the assassination.

(01:43:42):
During reenactment, Dr.
Stone determined thatHansford's gun had an unusually
heavy trigger pull, 20 poundscompared to the standard four to
six.
This required him to exertextra effort and for the gun to
jerk when it was fired, which hesaid could explain why Hansford
missed Williams when he shot athim three times.

Remi (01:44:03):
From the recoil.

Ashley (01:44:04):
Stone also found no gunshot residue on Hanford's
clothing, meaning that Williamshad to have been at least four
feet away, as that is how farhis gun ejected debris.
The defense also uncoveredtroubling issues with the
initial handling of evidence.
The prosecution had introducedabout 20 photographs, but the
police photographer testifiedthat she used five rolls of

(01:44:27):
film, meaning there were over100 images the defense never
saw.
Of these newly obtained photos,one showed a chair behind the
desk with a leather pouchagainst the leg.
In another, that same pouch wasseveral inches away.
Other photographs revealed thatobjects on the desk had even
shifted.
It was clear that the crimescene had not been properly

(01:44:49):
secured, as no one is supposedto touch anything until
photography and evidencecollection is completed.
These inconsistencies providedadditional grounds to challenge
the prosecution's narrative.
Although Williams treated hisappeal win as total vindication,
he wasn't ready to leave theretrial up to chance.
Enter Voodoo Master Minervafrom Beaufort, South Carolina.

(01:45:19):
Minerva was known as the lastgreat voodoo practitioner in
Beaufort County.
She took over her husband'spractice after he died a few
years ago.
Prior to his death, Dr.
Buzzard had built a reputationhelping clients with legal
troubles.
He would sit quietly in courtand glare at witnesses while
chewing a root, channeling hisenergy toward judges and juries.

(01:45:42):
Some paid him to curse theirenemies, others came to have
curses removed.
One night, Williams, authorJohn Barrent, and Minerva
visited a graveyard at deadtime,which lasts from 11:30 p.m.
to 12:30 a.m.
The first 30 minutes is forgood curses, and the last 30 is

(01:46:03):
for evil ones.
Hence the title, Midnight inthe Garden of Good and Evil.

Remi (01:46:08):
Oh, they didn't really explain that part of it.
So you have 30 minutes of goodand 30 minutes of evil.
That's a nice even split, Iguess.

Ashley (01:46:17):
Minerva and Williams performed a series of symbolic
acts with dimes, roots, andrainwater, all meant to
counteract Danny Hansford'ssupposed negative influence on
Williams and his trial.
Minerva then switched to cursesagainst D.A.
Lawton.
She instructed Williams on aseries of rituals to strengthen
the curses, which he did admitwere a little kooky, but could

(01:46:40):
have some therapeutic value.
Nonetheless, the whole ordealillustrated his flair for the
dramatic and eccentric length hewould go to feel in control of
his fate.

Remi (01:46:51):
So he's like, I did some voodoo, I've got all of my bases
covered.

Ashley (01:47:03):
The retrial of Jim Williams began in September 1983
and ran until October 8th.
Anticipating the intensepublicity, the defense asked for
the jury to be sequestered, andtheir reaction was dramatic.
Four women burst into tears,one man openly declared he would
become hostile to the case, andanother attempted to flee.

Remi (01:47:27):
This is all very extreme reactions.

Ashley (01:47:29):
Right?
It's not even a long trial,it's like two weeks.
Hanford's mother was once againadded to the defense witness
list to prevent her from beingin the courtroom, this time less
concerned about an outburstthan about the sympathetic
effect her waif-like appearancecould have on jurors.
Among those in the courtroomwas Minerva.
She positioned herself so shecould make direct eye contact

(01:47:53):
with the judge, jury, and DAwhile she attempted to channel
her influence during theproceedings.
At one point, she gatheredmaterials to cast a spell using
a Bible and an open flame,claiming Danny Hansford's spirit
was angry.

Remi (01:48:08):
Wait, was this in court?

Ashley (01:48:09):
No, it was outside.

Remi (01:48:11):
Okay.

Ashley (01:48:12):
During cross-examination, the defense
was successful in getting thepolice photographer to admit
that items at the crime scene,including the leather pouch
against the chair leg, had beenmoved.
This time, when Williams tookthe stand, he provided
additional information about hisrelationship with Hansford,
calling their sexualrelationship normal and natural.

(01:48:33):
During Cross, the DA pressed ontheir age difference, causing a
frustrated Williams to say, Iwas 52, but he had 52 years
worth of mileage on him.
It's so gross.
Forensic testimony again playeda central role.
Dr.
Stone presented his findings onthe lack of gunshot residue on

(01:48:54):
Hansford's shirt and the firearmmechanics.
Additional witnesses includedVanessa Blatton, a waitress who
saw a young man fire a pistolinto trees near Williams' home a
month before Hansford's death.
The defense argued this linedup perfectly with the April 3rd
incident.
Additionally, Dina Smith, whowas visiting Savannah the night

(01:49:17):
of the murder, heard severalgunshots all fired in rapid
succession around 2 a.m.,further reinforcing the
defense's narrative.
In closing, the defense furtheremphasized police clumsiness at
Mercer House and the chaotichandling of the crime scene.
In contrast, Lawton changedlittle about his view of the

(01:49:38):
April 3rd incident andsubsequent murder.
He also put on a littledemonstration for the jury,
focusing on the alleged 20-poundtrigger pull of Hansford's
weapon, a resistance that was sostrong it required Dr.
Stone, a former FBI agent, touse two hands to fire.
He handed the gun to his petitefemale assistant.

(01:50:00):
She pulled the trigger withlittle effort or movement from
her target, showing howimprobable it was that Hansford
would have missed Williams once,much less three times.
After just three hours ofdeliberation, the jury once
again returned a guilty verdict.

Remi (01:50:16):
So he's lost two out of two so far.

Ashley (01:50:19):
The day after his conviction, Williams' request
for bond was denied.
However, the judge decided hewould be held in the Catham
County Jail rather than beingtransported to prison while his
lawyers worked on his appeal.
Life at Mercer House continuedin his absence.
His mother moved in, cleanedmeticulously, and baked a fresh

(01:50:40):
caramel cake each week inanticipation of his return.
Williams also managed to runhis businesses from jail.
Trusted shopkeeper Barry Thomasgave him Polaroids of new
purchases and catalogs for himto pick out upcoming sales so he
could decide what he wanted tobuy or bid on.
He spoke with clients throughthree-way phone calls through

(01:51:02):
Mercer House and dictatedletters for his mother to type
on his personal stationery.

Remi (01:51:07):
He is treating this entire imprisonment for murder thing
like it's just a temporaryinconvenience.

Ashley (01:51:15):
I think it was important for him to continue doing this
because his defense is notcheap.
This man needed money.
In June 1985, nearly two yearsafter his second trial, the
Georgia Supreme Court once againoverturned his conviction.
The court found significanterrors in the trial that

(01:51:36):
compromised the fairness of theproceedings.
First, they determined thejudge improperly allowed a
police detective to testify asan expert on matters jurors were
fully competent to assessthemselves, like the smeared
blood and chair resting onHansford's pantcuff.
Second, the court faulted DALawton for waiting until closing

(01:51:57):
arguments to demonstrate theeasiness of the gun's trigger
pull.
By introducing that evidenceand closing arguments, the DA
denied the defense a properopportunity to respond.
So they're basically sayingthat when Lawton had his
assistant pull the gun duringclosing arguments, that was
introducing new evidence.

(01:52:17):
And you can't do that duringclosing.
You have to do it in the bulkof the trial.
Is that new evidence?
Yes, because the defense wassaying it was a strong trigger
pull and the DA showed that itwasn't.
So they should have done itearlier.

Remi (01:52:32):
During the rebuttal?

Ashley (01:52:34):
Yeah, they could have done it during cross or anything
like that.

Remi (01:52:38):
But saving it till the end gave the defense no time to
really try and counteract it.

Ashley (01:52:43):
Exactly.
Well, shortly after this,Williams was released,
estimating he spent close to ahalf a million dollars on his
defense thus far.
Upon returning home, Williamspaid Minerva $25 a day to cast
spells on anyone he suspected ofwishing him ill will.
His defense team, once againled by Sonny Seller,

(01:53:06):
unsuccessfully tried to suppressevidence seized at Mercer House
and moved the trial out ofSavannah.
He decided to not sequester thejury for fear of further
backlash.
The lack of gunpowder onHansford's hands remained one of
the most troublesome issues.
At the second trial, Dr.
Stone testified that thedownward angle of the gun, plus

(01:53:28):
a delay in swabs being taken,could have diminished residue by
up to 70%, but no more thanthat, since police took proper
procedure of taping paper bagsto his hands before moving him.
Williams invited author JohnBarrett to Mercer House for a
meeting with his defense team.
Before his attorneys arrived,Williams dropped a bombshell.

(01:53:49):
He was considering altering hisaccount of that night.
His reasoning?
He wanted to tell the truthabout what happened, since it
was probably the only way hecould win at trial.
His story of the night of theshooting remained the same until
Danny pulled the trigger.
He actually didn't fire anyshots at all because the safety

(01:54:09):
was on.
He lowered it, turned thesafety off, which resulted in an
extra bullet being ejected ontothe floor.
This gave Williams enough timeto take his own gun from his
desk drawer.
After he realized Danny wasdead, he panicked.
He picked up Danny's gun, firedthree shots across the desk,
and wiped his fingerprints away.

(01:54:30):
For years he knew he wasprobably making things worse for
himself by sticking to hisfabricated story, but he didn't
know what else to do.
Now he realized that revealingthe truth was his best chance at
vindication, since this storyaccounted for all the
unexplained evidence, especiallythe pesky lack of gunshot
residue.

Remi (01:54:49):
I'm smelling something fitchy here.

Ashley (01:54:52):
This guy has had years to think this story up.
Well that day, Sunny Sellerarrived with his own news,
insisting he share his firstbefore Williams shared his.
At the advice of Dr.
Stone, he reinvestigatedhospital records to see exactly
how Hansford's body was handledbefore his hands were swabbed

(01:55:13):
for residue, reasoning that themore the body was moved or
touched, the more likelygunpowder traces could have been
wiped away.
The autopsy report Sellerobtained directly from the
hospital was identical to theone given to him by the DA's
office, except this copy had atop admitting sheet that wasn't
previously given to him.

(01:55:33):
This form revealed thatHansford hands were bagged by a
hospital worker at the emergencydepartment, not by law
enforcement at the scene asmultiple officers had claimed.
DA Lawton was obligated to givea copy of this top sheet with
the original report to thedefense, but failed to do so.
When Seller asked Williams whathe wanted to talk about,

(01:55:57):
Williams merely shrugged andstated, never mind, it's not
important.
By the time the third trialbegan on May 26, 1987, nearly
six years had passed since DannyHansford's death.

(01:56:18):
A detective once againtestified that he bagged
Hansford hands at the crimescene to preserve any potential
residue.
The defense countered withtestimony from the hospital
worker who is the actual one tohave put bags on his hands,
followed by Dr.
Stone, who explained thatHansford's hands not being

(01:56:38):
bagged before his body was movedmeant any residue could have
been easily wiped away.
Dr.
Stone added that despite hergood intentions, the hospital
worker error by using plasticinstead of paper bags.
Plastic bags could createstatic electricity that would
pull away more particles fromthe hands, while condensation

(01:57:01):
from refrigeration in the morguecould wash away any remaining
traces of gunpowder.
In the end, Dr.
Stone would have been surprisedif any gunpowder residue had
been found.
DA Launten remained focused onthe evidence that did exist.
One thing he explored was theitems that Hansford supposedly

(01:57:21):
destroyed glasses and the Atarigame console.
None of the valuable antiquesare artwork or touched.
There was a tipped overgrandfather clock, but Williams
quickly repaired it.
Would someone in a violent ragetake such care to not damage
anything of actual value?
After several days ofdeliberation, the jury sent word

(01:57:43):
that they were split 11 to 1,with one juror refusing to
change her mind.
They were set to begin againthe next morning, but the
session was delayed because D.A.
Lawton received a startlingphone call.
A paramedic reported that at2:30 a.m.
the night before, an anonymouswoman called with questions
about a shooting between anolder and younger man.

(01:58:05):
How long would it take for aperson to die if shot in the
aorta?
How long would it take forblood to congeal on the hands?
She refused to identify herselfby name, but eventually
admitted that she was a juror onthe case and the sole holdout,
believing in William'sinnocence.

Remi (01:58:22):
That is very against the rules.

Ashley (01:58:25):
It sure is.
Lawton obviously demanded thatthe juror be replaced by an
alternate because she discussedthe case outside of the juror
room.
This would have all butguaranteed a guilty verdict.
The defense pushed for amistrial.
The judge conducted individualquestioning under oath, asking
each juror if they contacted theparamedic.

(01:58:47):
Each denied it, though theparamedic did recognize one
voice.
Despite this, no one wasremoved from the jury, and they
were sent back to thedeliberation room for a few more
hours before a mistrial wasultimately declared.

Remi (01:59:03):
What was the reasoning behind not removing the juror?

Ashley (01:59:07):
I do not know.
All trials, especially oneslike this, have at least two
alternates that are sittingthere listening to everything
and don't even know theiralternates until deliberations
start.
So I don't know why thedecision wasn't to get rid of
the one who obviously made thiscall and just put in one of the
alternates.

(01:59:27):
I have no clue.

Remi (01:59:29):
Yeah, the alternates are basically on standby and ready
to hop in if any juror needs tobe removed.

Ashley (01:59:35):
Williams estimated that his third trial cost him another
quarter of a million dollars.
130 miles away to Augusta, acity largely unfamiliar with the

(02:00:10):
case.
Once again, the defense focusedon the incompetence and
missteps of the police andprosecution.
They meticulously highlightedthe inconsistent statements from
prosecution experts across thethree trials, even presenting a
memo from the state crime labsuggesting officials planned to
conceal test results of thegunshot residue if findings

(02:00:31):
didn't support their narrative.
After just one hour, the juryreturned their verdict.
Not guilty.
Ten years later, Williams wasfinally an exonerated man.

Remi (02:00:43):
It took him a few tries, but he eventually got there.
It's kind of surprising.

Ashley (02:00:48):
Williams had no intention of leaving Mercer
House or Savannah.
His insurance company settledthe civil suit with Hansford's
mother for an undisclosedamount.
Despite his acquittal, he keptMinerva on staff to ward off
Danny's intermittently angryspirit.
On the morning of January 14,1990, just eight months later,

(02:01:09):
while going through his usualmorning routine, he collapsed
and died in a study.
The same room where he shotDanny Hansford.
He was 59 years old.
Initially thought to have diedfrom a heart attack, the coroner
later revealed he died ofpneumonia and heart failure.
Friends and acquaintances wereshocked.
Just hours before he hadattended a party, appearing in

(02:01:32):
good spirits and seeminglyperfect health.
He was buried next to hismother, who surpassed him by
seven years.
At the time of his death, hewas actively restoring a mansion
today owned by the SavannahCollege of Arts.
The property appears in thefilm as the venue for the
Married Women's Card Club.
Williams' sister inheritedMercer House and unsuccessfully

(02:01:54):
tried to sell it for $9 million.
Her daughter inherited it aftershe died just a few years ago.
The home was a primary filminglocation for Midnight in the
Garden of Good and Evil.
It was also used for sceneswith Matthew Broderick's
character in the movie Glory.
And that is the true story ofClint Eastwood's Midnight in the
Garden of Good and Evil.
What do you think, Remy?

Remi (02:02:16):
I went into this with kind of no expectations.
But after seeing the film, ofcourse, my pessimistic mind
began chiming in saying, There'sno way that this is all gonna
be accurate, but surprisingly, alot of it is.
It seems like most of the keyaspects of the story were

(02:02:36):
included, though a lot of it wasstreamlined, and a lot of
colorful characters aroundSavannah were included, kinda
needlessly.

Ashley (02:02:47):
What do you think about Clint Eastwood's decision to
really condense the trial aspectand only include one versus
four?

Remi (02:02:56):
It's weird.
He streamlined the trial, butit seems like he did so in order
to include more of the colorfulflavor of Savannah and its many
unique characters.
And personally speaking, Ithink it would have been a much
more interesting story if it wasthis guy sent to jail for this

(02:03:17):
crime and you didn't really knowwhat the truth was.
He's getting out, he's goingback in, he's getting out, he's
going back in.
I mean, it's kind of crazy thatthis all stretched on for 10
years, and literally he was justgoing out and in, still
handling his business.
It's way more interesting thana man at the diner with a bunch
of bugs tied to strings.

Ashley (02:03:38):
Yeah, I understand why he didn't include all four.
People might have gotten lost,but I think he should have done
at least two.
I think there should have beenone trial where he was
convicted, is in jail for thattwo years.
So this would be trial two, Iguess, is in jail for that two
years, successfully wins hisappeal, and then just do the

(02:03:58):
last one where he's exonerated.

Remi (02:04:00):
I think it should have been three.
It could have been two guiltyverdicts and then him finally
released in the end, and then,of course, closing on him
passing away less than a yearlater after fighting this for a
decade.
That story, I think, is muchmore compelling and interesting
than all of these randomvignettes of guys walking

(02:04:21):
invisible dogs in the park andstuff like that.
I think the focus should havebeen on Jim Williams and the
trials.

Ashley (02:04:30):
Another thought I have isn't about the movie, it's
about the handling of the case.
I think the DA kind of shothimself in the foot a little bit
by being so gung ho on gettingthis guy convicted of murder.
I kind of agree that maybe aninvoluntary manslaughter or even
a murder of a lesser degreewould have been better.

(02:04:53):
I don't think this went down asWilliams described it, but I
also don't think he had anyplans of killing Danny before
the murder actually happened.
I don't know what happened inthat house, but I think the true
story is somewhere in themiddle of what the defense and
the prosecution were arguing.

Remi (02:05:13):
Do you have any theories that you want to throw out there
right now of what you thinkoccurred that night?

Ashley (02:05:20):
So one thing that I omitted was there was like a
stubbed-out cigarette onWilliams' desk.
And so some speculated thatthey had an argument.
Maybe Danny even did pick upthat silver tankard and
threatened to throw it, stubbedout his cigarette on William's
desk.
And I think William just gotpissed and fed up with it and

(02:05:42):
shot him.
I don't really think Danny hada gun and was threatening him
with it or tried to shoot himwith it.
I think Williams just snapped.

Remi (02:05:51):
I believe something similar from everything you told
me about Danny was that he waspretty erratic and could be
violent sometimes.
So I agree with you that Idon't think he ever had a gun in
there, and I think that theywere having an argument.
But I believe that Danny mighthave just scared Jim, and Jim

(02:06:14):
grabbed a gun and opened fire.
I'm not saying that makes himblameless at all, but I can see
him maybe thinking that maybethings were going to escalate
and leaping to a rash decisionbefore anything had actually
occurred, and then trying tocover his tracks as a result.

Ashley (02:06:31):
Yeah, that's that's what I think happened too, which is
just so surprising that the DAwent through four trials trying
to get a guilty verdict.
It wasn't mentioned in the bookif there was any sort of plea
considerations or negotiations.
I feel like it wasn't.
I think the author would haveput that in there because he
stayed in touch with JimWilliams and his defense team
throughout this entire ordeal,and nothing of that was ever

(02:06:54):
mentioned.

Remi (02:06:55):
Well, with that, let's get into our objection of the week.

Objection of the Week (02:07:01):
Your Honor, I object! And why is
that, Mr.
Reed?
Because it's devastating to mycase! Overrule.
Good call!

Remi (02:07:09):
I will start things off this week, and I actually had
kind of a tough time findingone.
So the best thing that I couldcome up with was the guy who had
the sweater covered in bugsattached to strings.
He was on the jury in the film,and he was never on the jury or

(02:07:29):
any of the juries in real life.
So that is my superfluous,unnecessary change from reality
to film.

Ashley (02:07:37):
That's a pretty good one.
I can get behind that one.
Mine is that John Kelso, who isobviously author John Barrent,
was in town working on a storyfor Town and Country magazine,
when in reality, the author wasa writer for Esquire and the New
York Times.

Remi (02:07:55):
In the film, he is brought in because Jim Williams
specifically hired him to writea story on him.
Jim Williams had read one ofhis books and he was a fan, so
he called Town and Countrymagazine and requested that John
write a story on him, whichclearly is not how things
actually unfolded.
But I think mine might be alittle bit more unnecessary than

(02:08:16):
yours.

Ashley (02:08:16):
We'll go with the B one.

Remi (02:08:18):
I'll take the win this week.

Ashley (02:08:20):
Well, let's see if Clint Eastwood will also get a win
for our verdict.

Objection of the Week (02:08:26):
At the conclusion of each episode, our
hosts will deliver a verdictbased on the film's accuracy.
If the film is an honestportrayal of the events, then it
will earn a not guilty verdict.
If the adaptation is mostlyfactual, but creative liberties
were taken for the sake ofentertainment, the film will be
declared a mistrial.
But if the film ultimatelystrays too far from the truth,

(02:08:48):
then it will be condemned asguilty and sentenced to a life
behind bars.

Ashley (02:08:54):
I'll take the lead on this one.
This was pretty easy for me.
It's a mistrial.
I do think even if ClintEastwood would have included one
more trial, I would haveoverlooked the omission of all
the other trials, and it wouldhave been a not guilty verdict
for me.
But I don't see how, even withall the similarities that are

(02:09:15):
between the story and film, andthere are a lot, I would say
there's arguably moresimilarities than differences,
that's for sure.
But omitting three trials ofthe four and just depicting this
as a simple each side pledtheir case and Jim Williams was
acquitted in an hour, that doesnot do the true story of this

(02:09:35):
justice in my mind.
Not a big enough transgressionto come out guilty for me by any
means, but it just means thatthere's really no other choice
in my mind but to say mistrial.

Remi (02:09:48):
And I wholeheartedly agree with that as well.
I'm gonna go mistrial two,based on what you just said
about the three trials beingcondensed into the one in the
film, as well as Lady Shablis,who was completely absent from
your story.
She did not testify, she wasnot a roommate of Billy slash

(02:10:12):
Danny, and was really notinvolved hardly at all.
I believe you told me when wewere not recording that she was
just a colorful character aroundtown, that again had nothing to
do with anything, but Eastwoodliked her, they met, and she
lobbied to have a role in thefilm, and he clearly chose to

(02:10:32):
include her more than sheactually had been in real life.
So the trials and Lady Shableygive this the mistrial for me,
because also a lot of the stuffwas on point.
The confession and thendeciding to not come out with
it, a lot of the evidence withthe bagged hands and the too
many people being at the murderscene, all of that really lined

(02:10:55):
up, but those huge changes madeis enough to keep this firmly in
the mistrial zone.
But not getting a guiltyverdict, at least, just a
mistrial, so that's not tooshabby, I guess, Mr.
Eastwood.

Ashley (02:11:08):
And that marks the end of Midnight in the Garden of
Good and Evil.
What do we have on the docketfor two weeks from today?

Remi (02:11:16):
Two weeks from today, it will be 2026, and we will be
covering a little movie starringMr.
Tom Hardy called Bronson.
Have you seen this movie?
Have you heard of this man?
Charles Bronson, not the actor,the criminal.

Ashley (02:11:35):
I had not heard about either until you actually told
me about this movie.
And for those of you at home, alittle taste of what's to come.
Charles Bronson is known asEngland's most notorious
criminal, serving life inprison, not because he committed
a murder, but because of howviolent he was when he was

(02:11:57):
incarcerated for two othercrimes.

Remi (02:12:00):
I have seen this film a couple times before, and I am a
fan.
I think it's really weird andartfully done.
It is a film by NicholasReffen, who did Drive, starring
Ryan Gosling.
And this is really the firstmovie that I remember Tom Hardy

(02:12:20):
from.
And when he was casted in TheDark Knight Rises as Bane, this
was the movie that I thought ofand immediately was like, yeah,
that's great casting.
He is a big burly brute, and itis a wild, wild movie.
So we hope you can join us twoweeks from now for that.

Ashley (02:12:39):
And stick around for a little taste of what's to come.

Remi (02:12:43):
And until next time, everybody, happy holidays, happy
new year, and court isadjourned.

Bronson Trailer (02:12:51):
My name is Charles Brunson.
Nothing wonky about myupbringings, but most kids are
going to travel.
It wasn't bad.
It wasn't bad, bad.
And all my life I've wanted tobe famous.
This is the post office alreadyover.
This is what I got away with.

(02:13:13):
This is what they gave me.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Bobby Bones Show

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Bobby Bones Show

All Episodes

Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil

Stuff You Should Know