Orphan

Episode Transcript
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Remi (00:08):
Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, the show where we
take a look at some of yourfavorite movies and the true
crime stories that inspired them.
I'm Remy.
I spent over a decade workingin the film and television
industry in Los Angeles,California.

Ashley (00:21):
And I'm Ashley.
I'm a clinical psychologist andforensic evaluator in the state
of Oregon.

Remi (00:28):
Welcome back everybody.
Thank you so much for joiningus again for another true crime
film podcast, and if you'reenjoying what you're hearing,
please tell a friend.
Ashley, how are you doing today?

Ashley (00:43):
I am doing great.
Thank you for asking, Remy.
I actually do, however, have aquick update before we get into
this week's episode.
That is directly related towhat we talked about last week
with Bully.

Remi (00:55):
Another update.
All right, what's going on withBully?

Ashley (00:58):
Well, it seems like, once again, michael Pitt has
found himself in some hot water.
On May 2nd of this year soabout a month ago by the time
this is recording he wasactually arrested for several
charges of first degree sexualabuse, as well as charges of
assault involving injury with ablunt object and second degree

(01:20):
strangulation.
It stems from at least fourincidents of sexual abuse he
allegedly perpetrated between2020 and 2021.

Remi (01:30):
The trials and tribulations of the cast of
Bully continue on.
Unfortunately, and if anyonehas not checked out that episode
, it is probably one of ourcrazier ones, and literally this
is just like something extra wediscovered right after we
finished recording.

Ashley (01:48):
And another update of an older episode that we kept
forgetting to mention YolandaSalvador, the woman responsible
for the murder of SelenaQuintanilla, who is the subject
of one of our most popularepisodes to date, selena from
two seasons ago.
She actually had her firstparole hearing a couple months

(02:09):
ago now and, unsurprisingly, itwas denied.

Remi (02:13):
That is not a shocker whatsoever, but enough catch up
for now.
What are we talking about thisweek, Ashley?

Ashley (02:21):
This week we have come to our seasonal horror episode,
and for this episode it is allabout 2009's Orphan.

Remi (02:33):
We try to put one of these types of episodes in every
season.
There are a few true crimefilms based on horror films not
a ton and usually they are notthe most accurate, but it is
still fun to analyze them andsee just how inaccurate some of
these films are.
Had you heard of the originalstory that this film is based on

(02:55):
?

Ashley (02:56):
You know, I think I might have read somewhere after
I saw this movie years after Isaw this movie that it was based
on a true story or looselyinspired by, but I had not heard
anything about the case until Istarted doing my research for
it.
How about you?

Remi (03:12):
I am not very familiar with the original story.
In fact, I was pretty surprisedto find out that the original
story happened within the past20 years.
I thought it was a much olderstory than that.
But I am familiar withChristine and Michael Barnett,
who were inspired by this filmto change their adopted daughter

(03:33):
, Natalia's legal age to 22years old and then abandon her
back in 2014.
So it is a true crime inspiredby a movie which might be a new
genre we need to add later on.

Ashley (03:45):
Yeah, it's a pretty wild case.
If you haven't checked out theID docuseries the Curious Case
of Natalia Grace on HBO, Ihighly recommend that.
There's three whole seasons ofit, and it follows Natalia
through her legal case with theBarnetts and subsequent
developments that she hasexperienced since.
Just as a quick little rundownfor everyone not familiar with

(04:09):
Natalia Grace in 2010 she wasadopted by the Barnetts.
She was a Ukrainian girl with arare form of dwarfism, so even
though her adoptive parentsthought she was around six years
old at the time, Just two yearslater they actually petitioned
the court to legally change herbirth year from 2003 to 1989,

(04:30):
which would make her 22 yearsold, when she was really eight.

Remi (04:35):
And it is one of the crazier stories I know.
We were trying to get theminiseries watched before doing
this episode, but we didn'tquite have time to get that done
, unfortunately.
But how about the film itself?
Had you seen this movie?

Ashley (04:51):
I saw Orphan years ago when it first came out, and I
remember really liking it, andwe watched the second one not
too long ago.
I don't really remember muchabout it, other than Julia
Stiles in it, but I rememberenjoying that as well.
They're not movies that aregoing to cause you to do a lot
of thinking, but they're fun andenjoyable, in my opinion.

Remi (05:14):
I did not see this film in theaters.
I do remember that there was alot of word of mouth going
around about how crazy the twistat the end of the film is, but
I usually like to find out thetwists or surprises of movies
early, which I know spoils it.
But I went in already knowinghow the film ended and as a

(05:35):
result, it was not really my cupof tea.
However, I did enjoy OrphanFirst Kill a lot more than this
one, and the team that madeOrphan First Kill, I know, is
coming back for a third sequelto this one, so maybe that one
will live up to the standard setby the last prequel.
Now, how about the stars ofthis film?

(05:57):
It has Vera Farmiga, who I haveloved in movies like Up in the
Air and the Departed, but I kindof feel like she's been
slumming it for a while eversince getting wrapped up in
those Conjuring films.
But I know you really enjoythose films, ashley.

Ashley (06:11):
There are several of them I like.
I do think the franchise isoverdone and a bit played out at
this point, so I'm hoping thatthis next one that is coming out
pretty soon that's going to beabout the last case that this
couple supposedly did.
I hope after that Vera Famingais going to be able to go back
to some of her drama roots andwe'll be able to see her spread

(06:35):
her acting chops a little bitwider than she's been doing in
the past.
I don't know, five to ten years.

Remi (06:41):
And we do have one of the Conjuring films on the docket
for some later season, and thisfilm also stars Peter Sarsgaard,
who actually always mistakesfor being a member of the
Skarsgård family.

Ashley (06:56):
Well, that, and I thought he was the same exact
person as the lead in that TVshow, the Strain.
What's his name?

Remi (07:03):
Corey Stahl, very good actor.

Ashley (07:06):
Yeah, I found out last week that they are two different
people.
Look them up they look theexact same.

Remi (07:12):
They do have a striking similarity that I never noticed
until you pointed it out.
I always think of PeterSarsgaard from Garden State or
an SNL skit where they said hisname the only way that I can
ever hear it now.

Orphan (clip) (07:27):
I think I see what's going on here.
You guys don't know anythingabout me, do you?
The only reason you have mehere is because my name has a
bunch of R sounds in it.
No way, stars, darn.

Remi (07:39):
So, with that little bit of laughter out of the way,
should we dive into thepre-production of Jean-Colette
Serra's Orphan?

Ashley (07:48):
Yes, how did this movie come to be?

It must be hard to love an adopted child as much
as your own.

Remi (07:56):
Orphan is a 2009 horror film directed by Jean-Colette
Serra and written by DavidLeslie Johnson from a story by
Alex Mace.
The film stars Vera Formiga,peter Sarsgaard, isabelle
Fuhrman, cch Pounder and belovedcharacter actress Margot
Martindale, who I always confusewith Anne Dowd.
Director Jean-Colette Serramade his directorial debut with

(08:20):
the 2005 remake of House of Waxstarring Paris Hilton, which I
have a soft spot for.
It's a fun, cheesy horror film.
Reflecting back on hisexperience, colette Serra
acknowledged that it was a bigproject to take on.
For a first film, I was like 28years old.
I didn't know what I was doing,but I still love it.

(08:41):
After the financial success ofHouse of Wax, colette Serra was
initially uninterested inreturning to the horror genre,
but after the failure of hisfollow-up film Goal 2, living
the Dream, in 2007, hereluctantly agreed to read a
script written by newcomer DavidLeslie Johnson McGorlick called
Orphan, which had been featuredon the blacklist of most liked

(09:05):
unmade scripts of 2007.
Much to his surprise, coletteSerra found Orphan's subject
matter to be unexpectedlycompelling.
Since Colette Serra spent hisown childhood, raised in a
boarding school, he empathizedwith the character of Esther due
to neither of them growing upin a normal home environment.
Stating as a child, when youare separated from a normal

(09:25):
family environment, it makes youstronger as a person.
Screenwriter David LeslieJohnson McGorrick had also been
a horror fan and was inspired towrite the screenplay for Orphan
after watching the 1943 AlfredHitchcock film Shadow of Doubt,
which does not share a lot ofsimilarities to this film.
I just want to point out Shadowof Doubt, which does not share a
lot of similarities to thisfilm.

(09:46):
I just want to point outEarlier drafts of the script
included additional informationon Esther's backstory, including
that she had been molested byher father throughout her entire
childhood, destroying anychance of Esther having her own
children later in life.
When her father inevitablytakes another lover, he tells
Esther that it is because shewill never mature into a real
woman because of her condition,leading to Esther murdering both

(10:09):
of them and being sent to amental institution.
After escaping, esther workedas a prostitute in Estonia for a
period of time before beingarrested, then claiming to be a
child in order to stay out ofjail, resulting in her being
sent to the orphanage.

Ashley (10:23):
That is a lot of backstory they omitted.
Why do you think that is?

Remi (10:27):
This film is already two hours long, over two hours long,
which it definitely should notbe, so I feel like they cut it
out for pacing reasons and justto make sure that this is not a
two and a half hour movie,because nobody wants that.
While promoting the film, peterSarsgaard and Vera Farmiga both
claimed to have accepted theirroles.

(10:48):
After reading the shockingtwist revealed in the final act,
however, hollywood insidersallege that the actors only
agreed to star in Orphan afterbeing pressured into doing so by
Leonardo DiCaprio, who producedthe film, so he had a vested
interest in its success.

Ashley (11:05):
I mean, if Leonardo DiCaprio called me up and said
you're being in my movie, Iwould tell him you are 1000%
correct, I'm being in your movie.
He's not someone you tell no.

Remi (11:21):
Agreed.
He is definitely one of thosepeople that if he comes calling,
you answer every time, and Iknow him and Vera Farmiga worked
together in the Departed andthey had really great chemistry
together.
Years later, vera Farmigaadmitted that she only did the
film for a paycheck and theopportunity to work with Peter
Sarsgaard.
In the original screenplay,esther was physically described
as having platinum blonde hair,fair skin and delicate features.

(11:42):
Isabelle Fuhrman, who was 10years old at the time, didn't
quite fit this description, butauditioned for the role dressed
in character, wearing anold-fashioned dress with ribbons
tied around her neck and wrists.
In the end, the filmmakers wereso impressed with Fuhrman's
auditions that she landed therole in spite of her alternative
appearance, with the directorstating �When she read for us

(12:04):
she had strong convictionsbehind every word she said,
which is very difficult to findin a child.
Cch Pounder, who has one of themost unique names in all of
Hollywood, accepted her role asSister Abigail after learning
that screenwriter David LeslieJohnson McGorick had written the
part specifically with her inmind.
She also plays Natiri's motherin the Avatar films, so that's

(12:28):
fun For the role of Max, thefamily's completely deaf
biological daughter.
The production casteight-year-old actress Ariana
Engineer, who is also mostlydeaf in real life but has a
cochlear implant to enhance herabilities to speak and hear.
Orphan was originally writtento take place during autumn, but

(12:52):
shortly before principalphotography was set to begin in
Toronto, canada, a two-dayblizzard blanketed the entire
city in a near record-breaking10 inches of snow, which
resulted in the initial settingbeing updated to winter and,
finally, in a bit of cutebehind-the-scenes info that I
found while shooting the film.
Vera Farmiga taught IsabelFurman how to knit during many
of their long breaks together inbetween scenes.

Ashley (13:15):
Oh, I love that.
I wish I knew how to knit.

Remi (13:17):
And with that should we dive into Jean-Colette Serra's
Orphan.

Ashley (13:24):
Let's do it, I'm excited .

Remi (13:36):
Our story begins with Kate , played by Vera Farmiga, and
her husband John, played byPeter Sarsgaard, arriving at a
hospital as Kate goes into laborwith the couple's third child,
whom they've named Jessica.
As Kate is wheeled into thematernity ward, she begins to
bleed profusely from her netherregions, which alarms Kate, yet

(13:56):
those around her remain eerilycalm.
After a traumatic delivery, thedoctor informs Kate that her
baby tragically passed awayduring the procedure, then
presents Kate with a bloodystillborn, causing her to scream
out in horror.

Ashley (14:13):
This has to be some sort of nightmare.

Remi (14:16):
You got it.
Kate then wakes up momentslater, safe and sound, next to
her sleeping husband in bed,indicating that the previous
scene had all merely been anightmare.
She then quietly heads to thebathroom to take a sleeping pill
, where we see a cesarean scarrunning down her navel,
revealing that Kate's bad dreamwas likely the result of a

(14:38):
real-life trauma.
The next day, kate meets withher therapist, dr Browning,
played by beloved characteractress Margo Martindale, where
we learn that Kate and herhusband have been considering
adopting another child, thoughKate is still clearly processing
her intense feelings of griefbrought on by the stillbirth of

(14:59):
her daughter Jessica.
It is also revealed that Katehas a history of alcohol abuse,
but has remained sober for quitesome time now.
After counseling, kate picks upher five-year-old deaf daughter
, max, played by Ariana Engineerfrom elementary school, then
returns home and attempts topractice playing her piano, but

(15:21):
is repeatedly interrupted by Maxbouncing a basketball against
the side of their house whileplaying outside.
Side note here the scene ofVera Farmiga's character playing
piano in the house wasoriginally supposed to be much
longer, since Vera Farmiga isactually a skilled pianist in
real life, but the scene wasedited down in the final version

(15:44):
of the film, much to the dismayof Farmiga.
She had hoped that the fullscene would eventually be
included in the film's DVDrelease, but unfortunately it
remained excised.
That evening, little Max readiesherself for bed by removing her
hearing aid, leaving her incomplete silence as Kate regales

(16:06):
her daughter with a bedtimestory through the use of sign
language.
Afterwards, kate lays in bedwith her husband, john, and
admits that she is both excitedand nervous about their plans to
adopt, which had primarily beenJohn's idea from the very
beginning.
At the orphanage that weekend,kate and John are greeted by

(16:27):
Sister Abigail, played by CCHPounder, amidst a sea of
laughing children playingjoyously all around them.
While searching for therestroom, john instead finds
Esther, played by IsabellaFurman, a quaint little
black-haired Russian girl withribbons tied around her wrists
and neck, singing softly toherself while painting alone in

(16:50):
one of the classrooms.

Are all these paintings yours?
Yes, do you like them?
They're remarkable.
Are all these paintings yours?
Yes, do you like them?
They're remarkable.
My paintings always tellstories.
This one's about the sad motherlion who can't find her cubs.
She's smiling, she's dreamingabout her babies.

(17:18):
It's the only thing that makesher happy.
I hope she finds them.

Ashley (17:26):
She will.
I cannot believe Isabel Furmanwas 10 at the time of this,
maybe 11 by the time theystarted filming and that this
movie didn't cause her to be insuch high demand.
She is insanely good.

Remi (17:41):
She really does steal the entire movie away from Formiga
and Sarsgaard.
She is adorable and she isominous at the same time.
She does a really, really goodjob, especially for a
10-year-old.
The two are discovered by Katemoments later and the couple are
both soon smitten by theadorable little 9-year-old and

(18:03):
decide to proceed with Esther'sadoption.

Ashley (18:07):
The adorable nine-year-old who is a
remarkably great painter.

Remi (18:12):
Seriously, I love her paintings.
Her paintings are phenomenal inthis movie.
I don't know who actually didthem, but they are really good.
And side note here, in earlierdrafts of the script I know I
keep referring back to this Kateand John go to the orphanage to
bring presents to aseven-year-old Puerto Rican girl
named Yolanda, whom theyplanned on taking home the

(18:36):
following day.
When Kate and John meet Esther,she impresses them just as she
does in the film, but the couplehave already committed to
adopting Yolanda.
The next morning, yolanda isfound hanging in a closet, with
the implication being thatEsther had killed her so that
John and Kate would adopt herinstead.

Ashley (18:58):
I get why they took that out.
That's a little much Agreed.

Remi (19:00):
It's also kind of showing your hand a little early here.
That's a little much Agreed.
It's also kind of showing yourhand a little early here.
While reviewing Esther'sadoption papers with Sister
Abigail, John and Kate learnedthat Esther's parents had both
tragically died in a mysterioushouse fire.
Three weeks later, John andKate returned to the orphanage
to bring Esther home with themand meet her new family.

Ashley (19:22):
Oh, if only adoptions were that quick and simple.

Remi (19:26):
Right, you show up and three weeks later you're coming
home with a new kid.
When they arrive, esther isintroduced to Max along with
their 12-year-old son Daniel,played by Jimmy Bennett, and
Grandma Barbara, played byRosemary Dunsmore, but she is
not really a factor in thismovie, so don't pay attention to
her.
After being shown her room,esther is presented with several

(19:49):
welcoming gifts from John andKate in an effort to make her
feel more at home, including anew paint set, as well as a book
on sign language to help Esthercommunicate with Max.

Ashley (20:00):
Those are really thoughtful gifts.

Remi (20:02):
Agreed.
It's a very good welcoming ofher that this family gives, I
must say, except for Daniel.
He's kind of being a littleasshole during this whole
situation, but it's mainly outof jealousy.
So the following morning Estherreadies herself for her first
day of school dressed in adistinctly old-fashioned
Victorian-style outfit, with herhair in pigtails and signature

(20:26):
ribbons adorning her neck andwrists.
Once in class, esther'soutdated wardrobe is ridiculed
almost immediately by anothergirl named Barbara, sparking
uproarious laughter from theother students.
After school we see Daniel outin the backyard shooting toy
army men with a paintball gunwhen he suddenly strikes a

(20:49):
pigeon, mortally wounding thesmall bird.
Max and Esther find Danielmoments later consumed by guilt
from harming the poor animal,which leads Esther ending the
bird's suffering in a trulyunsettling fashion.

Did you kill it?
It's just a paintball.
I didn't think it hurt him.
Put it out of its misery.
It's in pain and it's yourresponsibility.
It was just an accident.
If you walk away now, it'll ofits misery.
It's in pain and it's yourresponsibility.
It was just an accident.

(21:27):
If you walk away now, it'llstarve to death.
Is that what you want?
I'm not doing it.
It's all right.
It's in heaven.

(21:47):
Heaven now.
What's wrong with you?

Ashley (21:53):
oof.
This is a really toughsituation because she is right,
if they just leave the bird here, it's gonna suffer in pain
until it either dies from itsinjuries or freezes to death.
But the way she ended it wasviolent.

Remi (22:08):
And just so cold even her expression.
There's no sympathy in there atall.
Again, isabelle Fuhrman is aphenomenal actress in this film.
I'm sorry I keep being an echochamber for this.
That night, while Esther istaking her bath, kate comes
across a strange old Biblehidden in Esther's sock drawer.

(22:30):
While putting away her laundryBack at school the next day,
esther is purposefully knockedto the ground by another student
while walking through thehallway, spilling the contents
of her backpack along with hermysterious Bible, which is
quickly snatched up by Brenda,whom I referred to as Barbara
mistakenly moments earlier, thesame girl who had mocked Esther

(22:53):
previously on her first day ofschool.

Ashley (22:56):
Kids are so fucking mean .

Remi (22:59):
I feel like they're meaner in movies than they are in real
life, at least more blatantlymean like this, Because when
Esther tries to retrieve herBible, Brenda snatches it up and
refuses to let go, then flingsthe book into the air,
scattering its pages andcontents everywhere like scraps
of confetti.
As Esther falls to the floorscrambling to gather her

(23:23):
belongings, Brenda sneaks upbehind her and attempts to
remove Esther's ribbon fromaround her neck, eliciting an
ear-piercing shriek from Esther,stunning the students and the
faculty.
Back at home, Esther inquiresabout Jessica after being given
a piano lesson by Kate.
Although she is hesitant atfirst, Kate does disclose the

(23:46):
tragic backstory of herstillborn daughter, then shows
Esther a beautiful white rosebush Kate had planted in the
family's conservatory inJessica's honor.

Ashley (23:57):
Does it address how she even found out about Jessica?

Remi (24:01):
There were photos that Esther saw where there were
nurseries being set up and itlooked like another baby was
coming and the other two kidswere in the photo and she put
two and two together.

Ashley (24:12):
Maybe photos of her pregnant with the other two.

Remi (24:16):
And Kate had been talking about Jessica to her husband at
some point and Esther, as we'lllearn, is always listening.
In that evening, after the kidsare all in bed, Kate and John
impulsively have sex in thekitchen until they notice Esther
eerily watching them fromanother room.
The next night, Kate attemptsto speak to Esther about what

(24:40):
she had witnessed between herand John, but little Esther's
mature response isn't quite whatKate had initially anticipated.

Esther we have to talk about last night.
Do we?
Yes, we do See.
See, there are certain thingsthat grown-ups do that children
aren't supposed to see, and thatwas one of them.
Esther, listen to me.

(25:15):
When grown-ups love each othervery, very much, they want to
show each other that love.
They want to express it.
I know they fuck.

Ashley (25:28):
Poor Kate.
She's just trying to have thetypical birds and the bees talk
with her young adoptednine-year-old and she is quickly
caught off guard here.

Remi (25:40):
I do not know how I would react if I was trying to
approach my child to have thetalk and they responded that way
.
But side note here, that'sactually pretty cute.
Director Jean-Colette Serraonly did a single take for this
scene in order to avoid havingIsabelle Fuhrman swear

(26:01):
repeatedly.

Ashley (26:01):
Furman swear repeatedly.
It seems like they did a reallygood job of treating this girl,
or recognizing that this girlis a kid and this is a movie
with very heavy themes andviolence, and trying to shield
her from that as much aspossible.

Remi (26:18):
We'll wait till we get to the almost sex scene coming up
towards the end.

Ashley (26:22):
Oh God.

Remi (26:23):
No, it's still PG, I promise.
Kate is, of course, mortifiedwith Esther's casual familiarity
with such an obscene word,while John is less concerned,
believing that she could havejust picked it up anywhere.
That weekend, john takes Maxand Esther to a playground,
where Esther's bully, brenda,also happens to be.

(26:47):
That day, when John goes off tosmoke a cigarette, esther
stalks Brenda to the top of aslide, then ambushes her,
causing Brenda to fall and breakher leg as Max witnesses the
entire ordeal.
The following day, kateoverhears Esther brilliantly

(27:07):
playing the piano from anotherroom, contradicting Esther's
earlier claims of beingunfamiliar with the instrument

(27:31):
you told me you didn't know howto play?

No, I didn't.
Yes, you did.
You offered to teach me and Iaccepted.
Okay.
So then you were justpretending this whole time.
I thought you would enjoyteaching me.
It must be frustrating forsomeone who loves music as much
as you to have a son who isn'tinterested and a daughter who

(27:54):
can't even hear.

Ashley (27:57):
In true Esther fashion.
She's not wrong, but herdelivery is harsh.

Remi (28:03):
She is very, very blunt, I must say, but I also gotta ask
why would Esther be playing thepiano like this?
She just really needed totickle the ivories here,
couldn't hold it in, even thoughit could potentially blow her
entire cover.
I don't know, seems a littleweird.
Though it could potentiallyblow her entire cover, I don't
know, seems a little weird.
That night, kate voices herconcerns about Esther's

(28:25):
deceptions to John, but heremains unworried about Esther's
peculiar behavior.

Ashley (28:38):
I get that I would think if I were him.
Of course she didn't sayanything to you.
She is trying to ensure thatshe is accepted into this family
and if her new mom comes up toher and says, do you want me to
teach you to play the piano, shemight be reluctant to say no,
I'm better than you are, I don'tneed it.

Remi (28:58):
The next day the family is paid a surprise visit by Sister
Abigail, who relays sometroubling details she's
uncovered about Esther's pastwhile Esther secretly eavesdrops
on the entire conversation fromthe other room.

What, what do you mean?
You told us you never had anytrouble with her.
I didn't, but trouble does havea way of finding her.
What kind of trouble.
Two girls get into a fight.
There she is, Someone getscaught stealing.
There she is again.
So is that me Let her finish.
After you told me about the girlin the playground, I called her

(29:38):
old school.
While she was there, there wasa boy who fell with a pair of
scissors in his hand andaccidentally stabbed himself
through the jaw, and Esther wasthere again.
I don't understand.
He accidentally stabbed himself.
But the most troubling thing isthe Sullivan house fire.
I checked into it further.
It was arson.

Remi (30:00):
How would you react if you were a parent of an adopted
child and the nun from theorphanage showed up at your
front door having this speechready, implying that your
adopted child may have beenresponsible for numerous murders
and injuries?

Ashley (30:21):
I would have one question for her.
You didn't think about tryingto figure this out before you
put her out for adoption?

Remi (30:31):
She didn't know before.
She just started doing herresearch after the family had
already done the adoption.
That's how it's done, Ashleyyou adopt the child and and then
they start looking into thechild's past, and then they'll
update the parents as you go.

Ashley (30:47):
My question would still stand.

Remi (30:49):
I'm being highly sarcastic , in case anyone did not catch
on to that.
While the adults arepreoccupied, Esther arms herself
with a hammer, then steals ahandgun from the family's safe
with Max's assistance.
Once Sister Abigail has takenher leave, Max and Esther get

(31:10):
into position hidden just out ofview near a small bridge.
As Sister Abigail's carsteadily approaches, Esther
shoves Max directly in front ofthe oncoming vehicle, causing it
to swerve violently off theroad and crash into a tree.
After fleeing her mangled car,Sister Abigail immediately

(31:31):
rushes over to check on Max, asEsther stealthily sneaks up from
behind then renders SisterAbigail unconscious after
beating her in the face with ahammer.
Once Sister Abigail's body hasbeen dragged from the road and
thrown into a ditch by Estherand Max, Esther finishes the job

(31:51):
with a barrage of blows usingthe sharp end of the hammer, as
little Max looks on in horror.
I do feel bad for Max.
She did not know what she wasgetting dragged into here.
Esther then stashes theevidence in a backpack hidden
under the floorboards ofDaniel's tree house, but is
spotted by Daniel during the act.

(32:12):
So Esther sneaks into Daniel'sroom in the dead of night and
threatens to cut off his peniswith a box cutter if he ever
tells anyone what he has seen.

Ashley (32:22):
That would be enough to seal my lips forever.

Remi (32:26):
Agreed, esther is brought in for a therapy session with Dr
Browning the following day and,to Kate's utter confoundment,
dr Browning deduces that thereis absolutely nothing wrong with
Esther and theorizes that Katemay be subconsciously projecting
her own negative emotionsregarding Jessica's stillbirth

(32:49):
onto Esther as a way of copingAshley as a professional in this
area.
How do you feel about thisdiagnosis here?

Ashley (33:05):
this diagnosis here.
Well, first off, I do not seekids under the age of 14 because
their development is just sodifferent from that of an adult.
But I can see why the therapistwould conclude this.
But I would imagine anytherapist would want to meet
with the child more than onetime before telling the mom that
she was completelymisinterpreting anything that
she was observing, based on herown traumatic experience,

(33:27):
especially a kid that has as atraumatic past as everyone
thinks Esther has.

Remi (33:34):
The frozen, bloodied corpse of Sister Abigail is
discovered by the police laterthat evening, leading to
officers being dispatched toJohn and Kate's home to question
them both about the suspiciousincident.
Once alone, Kate immediatelybegins googling children's
personality disorders in anattempt to better understand her

(33:56):
growing suspicions surroundingEsther's behavior.
Kate shows John her findingsthe next morning, but John is
skeptical of Kate's assertionsthat Esther had faked her way
through Dr Browning's evaluation.
Desperate for answers, Katetries contacting the orphanage
in Russia where Esther hadsupposedly come from, only to

(34:19):
reach another dead end afterdiscovering that they have no
record of her.
Sensing the escalating tensionbetween Esther and his wife,
John suggests that Esther dosomething nice for Kate in an
effort to mend their fracturedrelationship.
Esther agrees, so that eveningEsther presents Kate with a

(34:39):
beautiful bouquet of white rosescut directly from Jessica's
memorial garden.

Ashley (34:47):
Ooh, that is a sick burn Esther.

Remi (34:50):
Kate is understandably mortified by Esther's actions,
leading to a minor physicalaltercation between the two,
which John witnesses Later on.
After everyone else has gone tosleep, esther sneaks into the
garage and secures her forearmbetween the jaws of a steel vice
positioned on the family'sworkbench.

(35:11):
She then bites down on ascrewdriver wrapped in a rag and
proceeds to tighten the viceuntil her arm snaps like a
toothpick.
After sneaking back into bed,esther cries out in agony,
alerting John to come in andcheck on her.
John notices the damage toEsther's arm almost instantly
and quickly rushes her to ahospital, where he soon learns

(35:34):
that Esther's arm has beenfractured.
Upon their return home, johnconfronts Kate about Esther's
injury, believing that it waslikely the result of her and
Esther's earlier scuffle duringthe whole Rosebush incident.
Though Kate adamantly deniesany wrongdoing, john still feels
that it would be best if Kateslept downstairs for the

(35:56):
remainder of the evening,leading to Kate struggling with
her sobriety and purchasing abottle of wine.
Luckily, kate has a last-minutechange of heart and instead
chooses to pour the bottle downthe drain without consuming a
single drop.

Ashley (36:12):
Good for her.
I would not be able to getthrough all of this shit sober.

Remi (36:16):
Seriously, this calls for a drink, if any situation does.
I mean your adopted daughter isframing you the following
morning.
As Kate is dropping thechildren off at school, esther
shifts the vehicle into neutral,causing it to careen backwards
down the hill, nearly killingseveral innocent bystanders,
before colliding with a snowbank, with Max still strapped into

(36:39):
her car seat.

Ashley (36:41):
Poor Max.
She's just here not beingreally able to hear what's going
on, much less understand it,and is just at risk of death
left and right.

Remi (36:50):
I think I feel the most bad for Max in this entire
situation.
She's a little girl and she hasthis new sibling and she's just
following the lead of the olderchild here and the older child
is trying to kill her.
Kate, of course, blames Estherfor the entire debacle, while

(37:11):
John believes that the incidentmay have been caused by Kate
falling off the wagon afteruncovering one of her empty wine
bottles sitting in the trash.

Ashley (37:20):
And he's not going to believe her when she says she
just poured it down the drain.

Remi (37:25):
To protect his children, john gives Kate the ultimatum of
either returning to rehab orlosing her entire family once
and for all.
Meanwhile, Daniel has deducedthat Esther murdered Sister
Abigail after seeing the crimedepicted in several of Max's
crayon drawings, including thelocation of Esther's backpack

(37:46):
full of evidence stashed away inDaniel's treehouse.
Daniel vows to reveal the truthto his parents after retrieving
the hidden backpack, butdoesn't realize that Esther has
been listening in from thehallway as Daniel needlessly
verbalizes his entireconversation to his death,
sister Max Like seriously, whyaren't they just using sign

(38:11):
language here?
After waking up in the middleof the night, kate goes to check
on Max, only to find Estherthere patiently waiting for her.
To Kate's surprise, estherdrops her helpless little girl
act and maturely emphasizes theserious situation that Kate has
found herself in, revealing thatshe had stolen Kate's diary to

(38:33):
find weaknesses that she coulduse against her.

Going somewhere.
Kate, what are you doing?
here, she's fine her.
I will not let you hurt mychildren.
Me.
I'm not the one who passed outdrunk and let Max almost drown
in the pond.
If it wasn't for John, she'd bedead and you'd probably still
be in jail.
Who told you that it's veryintimate?

(39:15):
I learned so much about you.
Give it to me, Jessica, yourcheating husband Esther.
Give it to me when you had yourwine bottles.
I'm warning you right now.
She was still kicking when thedoctor told me it was something
called phantom fetal movement.
For 16 days I carried my deadbaby inside me, Esther.

(39:37):
It was the cruelest torture Icould imagine.
Stop it.
You stop it.
What's wrong with you, Kate?
It's too late.
It's your own fault.
You took your family forgranted.
What do you mean?
What are you going to do?

Ashley (39:56):
Hit me.
For those of you listening, youcouldn't see this, but as
Esther is describing the deathof Jessica, Kate takes the diary
, but Esther keeps talkingbecause she has memorized the
passage.

Remi (40:14):
The next day, kate searches Esther's room, looking
for the mysterious Bible she haduncovered previously, only to
find it hidden in a new location, inside one of Esther's stuffed
animals.
Within its pages, kate noticesthat the Bible had originally
been the property of a placecalled the Sarn Institute, which

(40:34):
turns out to be an Estonianmental hospital rather than a
Russian orphanage, like Kate hadoriginally assumed.
Meanwhile, out in Daniel'streehouse, daniel is trapped by
Esther during his attempt toretrieve the incriminating
backpack, resulting in Esthersetting the treehouse ablaze,

(40:54):
with both Daniel and theevidence locked inside.
Daniel does manage to escapethe growing flames and fiery
embers, but falls several feetto the ground, knocking him
unconscious in the process.
Nearby Esther, who has beenwatching the chaos unfold with a
malevolent grin etched acrossher face, picks up a large rock

(41:17):
and prepares to bash Daniel'shead in, just as she had with
the injured pigeon.
Fortunately, her attempt onDaniel's life is thwarted by Max
, followed by Kate, who arrivesat the scene moments later.
Down at the ER, kate disclosesher findings about the Estonian
mental hospital to John, alongwith her conclusion that Esther

(41:40):
is purposefully trying to frameKate as well as harm their
children.
But per usual, john is stillskeptical of Kate and reluctant
to believe that Esther wouldever willingly do anything wrong
.
While both parents aredistracted, esther finagles a
dollar from Grandma Barbaraunder the pretext of purchasing

(42:02):
some snacks from the vendingmachine located down the hallway
across from Daniel's hospitalroom.
As Daniel lays unconscious andsedated in bed, esther returns
to finish what she started byremoving Daniel's breathing tube
, then using a pillow to try andsuffocate him.
The medical staff are soonalerted by the flatline alarm

(42:24):
triggered by Daniel's cardiacmonitor, but Esther is nowhere
to be seen upon their arrival.
Daniel survives the incident,but Kate knows that Esther was
responsible, so administers amighty bitch slap across the
little girl's face in front ofnumerous witnesses in the
hospital waiting room.
While still in hysterics, kateis forcibly restrained by

(42:48):
several orderlies who inject herwith a sedative, rendering her
unconscious.
Kate awakens drugged and dazedin a hospital bed and is
informed that she will beremaining there overnight while
John and the children returnhome for the evening.
Back at the house, john smokes acigarette while drowning his
sorrows in a few tall glasses ofwine, before inevitably passing

(43:13):
out drunk on the living roomcouch.
John is roused from his slumbersometime later by Esther
holding a large kitchen knifealong with a serving tray full
of fruit and crackers.
Though John remains groggy fromthe wine, he slowly begins to
notice that Esther is wearingmakeup, has her hair styled

(43:33):
differently and is wearing aprovocative black dress, giving
her the unsettling appearance ofa strikingly older-looking
woman.
John is understandablybefuddled by Esther's new look,
but is still too intoxicated toaccurately process exactly what

(43:53):
is occurring.
When Esther unexpectedly triesto seduce John by giving him a
handjob, he thankfully snaps outof his drunken stupor and
firmly puts an end to whateverthe fuck is happening here.
Side note, the seduction scenebetween John and Esther was
originally written to be muchlonger and more sexually graphic

(44:18):
, but the majority of thiscontent and dialogue was cut
when Isabelle Furman's parentsthreatened to pull her from the
film if the scene was notrewritten to be less sexually
explicit.

Ashley (44:32):
Good for these parents man.

Remi (44:35):
Agreed.
If you have a child actor for akid, you need to be standing up
for them like this, bravo.
Back at the hospital, katereceives a shocking phone call
from Dr Varava from the SarnInstitute in Estonia, who
reveals a jaw-droppinglyflabbergasting revelation.

Hello, yeah, this is she.
My name is Dr Varla.
I'm calling from the SarnInstitute.
Oh, I've just seen the pictureyou emailed to us.
And you recognize her.
Where is she right now?
Is she someplace where she canhear you?
No, she's not with me.
She's with my husband at home.
Call your husband right now andtell him to get your family out

(45:19):
of the house, and then call thepolice he won't listen to me.
Why?
then tell him the little girl inthe picture is not really a
little girl, she's a grown woman, what?
what are you talking about?
The picture that I sent you isof our adopted daughter, and
she's nine years old no, she not.

(45:41):
She has a rare hormone disorder.
It's called hypopituitism.
It causes proportional dwarfism.
She only looks like a child.
According to our records, lenaKlammer was born in 1976.
She's 33 years old.
This can't be.
This is a mistake.
I hope so, for your sake.
Does she have the scars?

(46:01):
What I don't know?
This is a mistake.
I hope so for your sake.
Does she have the scars?
What I don't know, what scars.
Lena was one of our most violentpatients.
When she was here she was keptin a straitjacket to stop her
from hurting our staff, but shewas constantly fighting to get
out of it.
It got into her skin and lefther with scars around her wrists
and neck.
There is no way you could nothave seen them.

(46:22):
Why was she at your hospital?
She's dangerously ill, violent.
She killed seven people that weknow of.
Oh my God, how could she fool?
us.
She's been passing herself offas a little girl for most of her
life.
She tricked the family here inEstonia into adopting her.
When she couldn't seduce thefather, she killed him and his

(46:43):
whole family.
Then she burned the house down.
Yes, how did you know?
She disappeared a year ago andwe lost track of her.
If it's really Nina, you don'thave much time.

Ashley (46:54):
If I were Kate, I would have immediately stopped this
entire confession and been likehold on, let me hit record on my
phone to catch all of this, somy husband will actually finally
believe me.

Remi (47:07):
As soon as Kate hears this news, she immediately flees
from the hospital as fast as shecan and races back home to
check on her family.
Concurrently enraged by John'srejection, Esther destroys her
room in a fit of anger,revealing that behind her
adorable childlike demeanorhides a rotten-toothed, haggard

(47:29):
woman disguised beneath boundbreasts and children's dentures.
After hearing the commotionupstairs, john goes up to
investigate, but Esther isnowhere to be found.
He does, however, uncover ahidden collage of graphically
violent and disturbing sexpaintings covering the walls of

(47:50):
Esther's entire bedroom, whichcan only be viewed through the
use of a blacklight.
Personal question here whywould Esther do this Seriously?
Was she just like so artisticshe couldn't contain her
creativity?
Or is she just supposed to becrazy?
I mean, it's a cool visual andall, but it's just like super

(48:11):
unnecessary, you know?

Ashley (48:13):
Also, how did she get the materials to paint in
complete blacklight on paper andwith paint that could only be
viewed under blacklight?
They've been in and out of herroom this entire movie.

Remi (48:26):
The light in the fish tank in Esther's bedroom, I guess,
is a blacklight, and that iswhat she was using this entire
time to paint all of thesegraphic pictures all over her
bedroom.

Ashley (48:41):
But again, how did she get the paint?

Remi (48:51):
No idea, not explained At all.
But whatever, maybe I'mthinking too much into this film
, anyway.
So the power gets cut.
John goes looking for aflashlight.
Then he gets stabbed to deathby Esther a few seconds later.
As Esther goes searching for Max, kate comes careening in out of
nowhere, making her grandentrance by crashing through the
living room after losingcontrol of her vehicle due to
the icy roads outside.

(49:11):
After discovering John'slifeless body, kate jumps into
action and begins franticallysearching the entire house for
her missing daughter Max, onlyto be shot directly through her
shoulder by sneaky little Estherfrom an outside window.
They all end up playing a bitof cat and mouse for a while,
leading to a shootout in thefamily's greenhouse, where

(49:38):
Esther is supposedly killed inthe process.
As the sounds of police sirensdraw near, kate and Max are
reunited and the entire ordealseems to be reaching its logical
conclusion.
But wait.
Then we see that Esther's bodyhas somehow disappeared.
Who could have ever predictedthis?
She then suddenly re-emergesout of the darkness brandishing

(50:00):
a bloody butcher's knife andattacks Kate like a rabid little
Chucky doll, sending the two ofthem tumbling down the snowy
hill and onto the frozen lakebelow.
The tussle continues, withEsther quickly gaining the upper
hand until Max tries shootingEsther using the discarded
handgun.
Shooting Esther using thediscarded handgun, only two miss
completely, shattering the icebeneath them, plunging Kate and

(50:23):
Esther into the freezing darkwaters below.
After being stabbed severalmore times, kate finally
resurfaces and begins draggingher cold, bloody body from the
water as Esther tenaciouslyclings to Kate's leg like a
needy little toddler.
Clearly this movie is ready tobe over just as much as I am.

(50:45):
So Kate Karate kicks Esther'shead back like a PEZ dispenser,
breaking her neck and sendingEsther's lifeless body drifting
eerily to the bottom of the lake.
Side note here, since LeonardoDiCaprio was a producer on the
film, this scene wasspecifically shot to mirror a
scene in the 1997 film Titanic,which depicted Leo's character,

(51:08):
jack, tragically sinking to thebottom of the ocean after
freezing to death.

Ashley (51:14):
Oh my god, I love this reference.
So so, so much.

Remi (51:25):
And that's basically the end of the movie.
The police arrive a coupleseconds later and Kate and Max
are both saved, hallelujah.
And that was Jean-ColetteSerra's Orphan.

Ashley (51:35):
Oh my god, I am now imagining Esther just slowly
drifting to the bottom of thislake just with her, like
reaching up to the surface, andI'm just getting such Titanic
vibes.
And I love that reference.
I'm obsessed with it.
That's my favorite part of thismovie.

Remi (51:52):
It's pretty hilarious.
It is shot exactly like thesame shot of Leonardo DiCaprio
sinking to the bottom of theocean, just fading into the
blackness of the abyss of water.

Ashley (52:08):
I'm assuming that wasn't because he wanted that in, but
it was just because he was aproducer and they wanted to do
some sort of nod to him,probably because everyone in
this movie was so thankful thathe helped fund it.
Everyone in this movie was sothankful that he helped fund it.

Remi (52:20):
I don't think he specifically asked anything of
this film.
I think that they just threw itin as a nod to him for helping
to get the film made.

Ashley (52:32):
That is so fun.
It also goes without saying,because we've drilled this point
home so many times.
But I just do not understandhow Isabel Fuhrman did not blow
up after this movie.
She is absolutely remarkable.

Remi (52:46):
Agreed Every scene that I showed you while we were going
through this podcast.
She steals.
She is the center of attentionand she steals every scene from
Vera Farmiga Peter Sarsgaard.
She is fucking phenomenal inthis movie and I can't believe
that she doesn't have a careerlike Hailee Stonfeld or one of

(53:06):
the other actresses like that.

Ashley (53:08):
She's 10 or 11 years old while they're filming this and
she is miles above so many adultactors and actresses we see
routinely in films, every day.

Remi (53:20):
Well, are you ready to get into the release portion of
Orphan Ashley?

Ashley (53:26):
I still have Titanic on my mind, because it is my
favorite movie of all time.
But yes, I will try to shiftgears.

Remi (53:33):
Orphan currently holds a 60% rating on Rotten Tomatoes,
with a critical consensus thatreads while it has its moments
of dark humor and the requisitescares, orphan fails to build on
its interesting premise anddegenerates into a formulaic,
sleazy horror thriller Womp womp.

Ashley (53:57):
And yet a 60% rating is still rather good.

Remi (54:01):
And yet a 60% rating is still rather good.
Seriously, that's a pretty badcritical consensus for a 60%
rating on Rotten Tomatoes.
Upon its release, the filmreceived additional criticisms
from numerous adoption groups,with Melissa Faye Green of the
Daily Beast commenting.
The movie Orphan comes directlyfrom this unexamined place in

(54:22):
popular culture.
Esther's shadowy past includesEastern Europe.
She appears normal and sweetbut quickly turns violent and
cruel, especially towards hermother.
These are cliches.
This is the baggage with whichwe saddle abandoned, orphaned or
disabled children given a freshstart at a family life.

(54:43):
As a result of this highlypublicized outcry, the
filmmakers decided to replace asingle line of dialogue spoken
by Esther which had prominentlybeen featured in the original
marketing campaign.
The line in question, which weplayed at the beginning of my
portion of the podcast, waschanged from it must be

(55:06):
difficult to love an adoptedchild as much as your own to.
I don't think mommy likes mevery much.

Ashley (55:13):
That is a very big change, but I completely
understand the criticism theygot from it.
It's a pretty fucked up line.

Remi (55:23):
Director Jean-Colette Serra would later release the
following statement in responseto the film's controversy Our
goal is to entertain and makemovies.
Our goal is not to offendanybody.
If someone was offended, Ithink it is reasonable to ask to
change one line in the trailer.
If it's in the movie, I'm notgoing to change something

(55:44):
because someone is offended.
A trailer is moreunderstandable.
Over a decade later, a prequelfilm directed by William Brent
Bell and written by DavidCogshell, titled Orphan First
Kill, was released on August 19,2022.

Ashley (56:03):
Did you find anything about why they didn't reprise
the original director and writer?

Remi (56:08):
I do not, but it seems like this new director and
writer are sticking with thisfranchise, from what I read.

Ashley (56:15):
I did read that Jean-Colette Serra did Shallows
with Blake Lively that sharkmovie so I don't know if that
was going on at the same time.
I think it was released around2023-ish, so maybe that's why I
don't know.

Remi (56:30):
I don't think that the director had a soft spot for
this film, so I don't think itwas something that he was dying
to come back to in the end.
I mean, he wanted to step awayfrom the horror genre before and
that didn't work out, so he hadto come back and, like you said
, the last film that youremember him doing was the
Shallows, which is anotherhorror type film.

Ashley (56:54):
But also fun.

Remi (56:56):
I do, like the Shallows, recommend for the Shallows.
It's a fun shark movie.
But I can understand how hedidn't want to return to the
Orphan franchise.
I mean, I wouldn't.
What else is there to tellabout this story, honestly?
But I gotta say Orphan FirstKill way better than Orphan Part
One, in my humble opinion.

(57:16):
Isabelle Fuhrman also reprisedher role as the malevolent
Esther, but since Fuhrman was inher early 20s by the time
production on the prequelfinally began, filmmakers
utilized a combination of makeupeffects, forced perspective
shots and child actor bodydoubles in order to allow

(57:38):
Fuhrman to portray her characteragain, and and I must admit
this is what I thought they didwith the first movie I thought
this was a full-grown woman thatthey had dressed up to make
look younger.
So I was very surprised to findout that Isabelle Furman was
only 10 years old when she madethis movie and she was in her
20s when they made the sequel.

Ashley (57:58):
So is Orphan First Kill.
Even though I've seen thismovie, I don't remember supposed
to be about the family that shesupposedly killed right before
Kate's in the arson fire.

Remi (58:09):
It is not.
They are pulling a saw withthis franchise.
In November of 2024, darkCastle announced that a third
film had been greenlit byLionsgate, with David Cogshell
and Brent Bell returning towrite and direct, along with a
now 28-year-old, isabel Fuhrman,who will be portraying her

(58:31):
iconic character for a thirdtime.
Fuhrman described the nextinstallment in the series as an
in-betweenquel, which will takeplace between the original 2009
film and the 2022 prequel.
So they are just gonna keepmaking prequels, because they
didn't know they had a franchiseon their hand and that was

(58:54):
Jean-Colette Serra's Orphan.
But that is just the Hollywoodversion and I would imagine that
the true story is vastlydifferent than the tale I have
just told.

Ashley (59:08):
And now the time is finally here, remy, are you
ready to hear the true storybehind Orphan?

I am.

Ashley (59:30):
Karim is a small, quiet town with a population of about
12,000 in Czechia, or the CzechRepublic as it was known back in
the day, or the Czech Republicas it was known back in the day.
On the morning of May 7th 2007,edward Trudy was testing out a
new baby monitor as his wife wasabout to go into labor with
their first child.
Instead of broadcasting anempty nursery, Edward saw a dark

(59:53):
, creamy image of what lookedlike a naked boy, about six or
seven years old, with his handstied, playing with a roll of
scotch tape in a small room.

Remi (01:00:04):
What I definitely called the police.

Ashley (01:00:06):
Well, because the boy didn't seem to be in distress,
Edward thought maybe he was justplaying in his favorite space,
pretending it was a bunker or asecret room or something, and
went about his day.

Remi (01:00:17):
That's the wrong move.

Ashley (01:00:19):
He returned home from visiting his wife and newborn
around five o'clock and decidedto revisit the video stream,
just in case the little boy withbound hands was in the same
spot, but this time he waseating off the floor.
Edward called the police andhit record, just in case the
feed was lost before theyarrived.
Responding officers knew thebaby monitor had a short range

(01:00:41):
and started knocking onneighbors' doors, but none of
them admitted to having a smallchild locked in a dark room.

Remi (01:00:48):
That's not super surprising that no one fessed up
to this right away.

Ashley (01:00:53):
One of the houses belonged to 29-year-old Clara
Morova.
She claimed the only kid in thehome was her 13-year-old
daughter, Annika, who was sickand would be upset by strangers
searching the house.
Police understood and had noreason to suspect she was lying,
but Edward knew otherwise.
He was still watching themonitor and heard the entire

(01:01:14):
conversation.
Law enforcement searchedClara's house and first found
Annika, who did look to be ateenager but acted much younger.
She crawled down the stairs onall fours, babbled like an
infant and started screaming asthey approached a padlocked door
under the stairs.

Remi (01:01:32):
So she looked like a teenager, but she was basically
acting like a toddler here.

Ashley (01:01:37):
Clara said she would open the door if she could, but
it was locked when she moved inand she was never given a key.
Unwilling to take no for ananswer, the fire department was
called to bust the door down.
Clara then phoned her31-year-old sister, Katerina, to
the house.
When the fire departmentarrived, the sisters and Annika
stood in front of the door andhad to be physically removed.

Remi (01:01:59):
Because they knew they would be in a shitload of
trouble the second that door wasopened.

Ashley (01:02:05):
And as it was opened, the first thing to hit everyone
was the smell emitting from theunbearably hot room.
The concrete floor was coveredin human waste, dried urine and
vomit.
In the middle was a calm, nakedbound child who looked straight
into the camera and smiledwhile the scene was being
photographed.
Clara identified the boy as herseven-year-old son, andre.

(01:02:29):
When asked about his physicalstate, she became so distraught
and just kept saying theywouldn't understand.
Katerina chimed in andexplained that Andre liked to
play in the little room underthe stairs because it reminded
him of the one Harry Potterlived in before he went to
Hogwarts.

Remi (01:02:45):
In his own abusive household.

Ashley (01:02:47):
This excuse was insufficient as it didn't
account for why he was naked,tied up, locked in there and
playing in absolute filth.
Andre was taken to a hospitaland treated for dehydration.
The physical assessmentrevealed long scars on his arms
and back, pale welts near hisgroin and a large circular scar

(01:03:08):
on his butt.
He remained calm until bedtimewhen he became delirious, afraid
and repeatedly asked the nursesto quote just kill me, please,
just kill me.
Not long after, he wastransferred to the Bruno
Children's Institution and wassoon joined by the other two
kids who lived with Clara,13-year-old Annika and

(01:03:30):
9-year-old Jacob, who was atschool during the raid.
All the children were reluctantto speak to adults at the
institution.
Providers were convinced Annikawas developmentally delayed or
had autism, given her smallstature, childlike demeanor and
obsession with drawing,mathematical binaries and
formulas.
She was very upset by theseparation from Clara who, they

(01:03:52):
learned, adopted her a year orso ago.
She also screamed bit andfought anyone who tried to touch
her, which prevented nursesfrom checking her body out for
signs of abuse.
Which prevented nurses fromchecking her body out for signs
of abuse.
To try to get her to open up alittle bit, caregivers asked the
man who arranged the adoptionto come and talk to her, but the

(01:04:13):
meeting went nowhere.
On May 12, 2007, just five daysafter the children were rescued,
annika disappeared, seeminglyby crawling out an open window.
A high-priority search ensued,but she seemed to have
disappeared out of thin air.
Jacob and Andre were protectiveof Annika and very distressed
when she disappeared.

(01:04:33):
Prior to her departure,caregivers found scars on
Jacob's body that were similarto Andre's, except for the large
one on his butt.
Jacob initially said the scarswere from gerbil bites and wasp
stings, but as the boys grewmore comfortable with their
caretakers, they began to revealthe truth, and it was much,
much more sinister.

(01:04:54):
The marks on their bodies wereinflicted by their mother, aunt
and a woman they only knew asAunt Nancy, an employee at the
daycare they both attended forseveral years.
They pinpointed the onset of theabuse to late summer 2006,

(01:05:14):
during a summer camping tripattended by Clara and her three
kids, katerina, aunt Nancy andanother man the boys couldn't
name.
The cottage was about 30minutes from Bruno, where Clara
and her kids lived at the time.
While there, the boys weresubjected to unimaginable
horrors they were blindfolded,locked inside dog cages,
forbidden to talk to each otheror anyone else in the cabin and

(01:05:35):
fed from dog bowls.
They were only taken out of thecage to be abused further.
They were repeatedly beaten,scratched with forks, had
cigarettes put out near theirgroins and had hot water poured
over their bellies.
On one occasion, andre's headwas held underwater, causing him
to nearly drown.
Oh, and that large circularscar on his butt.

(01:05:57):
That was from Clara cutting offa chunk of his skin and passing
it around for the abusers toeat.

Remi (01:06:03):
What the fuck?
That is beyond sick.

Ashley (01:06:07):
Andre and Jacob weren't just physically mistreated
either, because they had bagsover their heads whenever they
were let out of their cages.
They never knew who was hurtingthem.
All they could hear were thediscernible chants, cheers and
taunts.
They were forced to memorizevulgar words and phrases, had
industrial music blared at themand were required to even fight

(01:06:28):
and beat each other.
Their captors even had them digshallow graves and lie inside
them while repeatedly being toldthey were dead.

Remi (01:06:35):
These people are fucking monsters.

Ashley (01:06:38):
Clara and her kids went home after eight days of this
pure hell.
Jacob was re-enrolled in schoolbut missed 214 days of the year
.
He wasn't allowed to go on anyclass trips or participate in
after-school activities, likelybecause Clara didn't want other
adults to discover his injuries.
Andre, on the other hand, washomeschooled because he

(01:06:59):
allegedly had a hearingimpairment that impacted his
ability to learn.
However, caregivers at theinstitution found no evidence of
any hearing difficulties.
He spent the next severalmonths in a basement at the
daycare run by Aunt Nancy, whoinvestigators later learned was
Hannah Basova.
When Andre wasn't in thebasement, he was chained to

(01:07:21):
Basova's desk, forced to pee ina bucket and occasionally beaten
.
Katarina, clara and the kidsmoved to Karim in December 2006.
The women were essentiallyreclusive and hardly spoke to
any of their neighbors.
After the move, andre wasconfined to the bathroom before
being locked under the stairs.
He ate all meals in completedarkness, went to the bathroom

(01:07:47):
in a rarely empty bucket and wasonly let out for a few hours on
Christmas Eve.
This is how he spent the nextsix months of his life until he
was rescued in May 2007.
As the search for Annikaintensified after she fled the
Institute, authorities found norecords of her existence other
than court documents related toClara's adoption of her.

(01:08:07):
Sometime after the escape, thepress got a letter from Annika
that offered an explanation asto why she ran away.
She said she saw a news storyabout Clara and went to find her
.
The letter also mentioned Andrebeing kept in the closet, which
Annika said was a disciplinarytactic because he was unruly and
threatened to kill her andtheir mom.
Also mentioned Andre being keptin the closet, which Annika
said was a disciplinary tacticbecause he was unruly and
threatened to kill her and theirmom.

(01:08:28):
Oddly, the letter didn't seemto be written by a child with
developmental challenges.
It was 10 pages long and freeof grammatical and spelling
errors, but the handwriting didmatch the doodles she made.
At the institute.
Authorities traced the letterto the same cottage the boys
were abused at months earlier,but it was completely empty by

(01:08:49):
the time they got there.
The media also releasedphotographs of Annika around the
time they got the letter fromher.
Not long after that, severalpeople noticed the strange
resemblance between the13-year-old girl and 32-year-old
Barboa Skorlova, a woman wholived with Katerina and used to
work with her and Basova at thesame daycare.

(01:09:11):
The boys went to Katerina wasasked about this resemblance,
but said the allegations of13-year-old Annika actually
being a grown woman wereludicrous.
Still skeptical, investigatorscompared Annika's DNA taken at
the institute to what was givenat the time she was adopted, but
the samples didn't match.

(01:09:32):
Shortly after DNA analysisrevealed Annika was indeed
Barboa Skrilova.
So who are the adults involvedin this case and what the hell
happened here?
To answer that question, wehave to go back in time a bit.

(01:09:53):
Clara, katerina and their sisterGabriela were born in Karim in
the 1970s.
The Morovas were your typicalclose-knit, middle-class
Catholic family.
Katerina and Gabriela wereinvested in their studies, while
Clara was the sporty one andplayed volleyball, gymnastics
and synchronized swimming.
Clara was 18 when she becamepregnant with Jacob and married

(01:10:17):
Roddick Soufall.
Jacob was born in October 1997,followed by Andre in September
1999.
In October 1997, followed byAndre in September 1999.
The young family lived withClara's parents for about a year
until they could afford theirown apartment.
Although the couple divorced in2003, the split was amicable.
Clara was awarded primarycustody of the boys, which no

(01:10:39):
one thought would be an issuebecause she had no history of
violence and was a loving,caring and attempted mom.
Soufalle paid his child supportand spent as much time with the
boys as he could.
After the divorce, clara decidedto follow in her older sister's
footsteps and began studyingchild care.
In the fall of 2003, katerinainvited Clara over and showed

(01:11:01):
her a children's room filledwith toys, which was perplexing,
since Katarina didn't have kids.
She confided in her sister thatshe recently rescued a young
girl from a ring of Norwegianchild sex traffickers.
To make matters worse, the girlwas dying of leukemia and
kidney failure, wasprogressively losing her vision

(01:11:21):
and hearing and probablywouldn't live past the age of 16
.
Once Clara agreed to not tellanyone about the girl to ensure
her safety, she was introducedto Annika, aka Barboa Sklerlova.
Even though we know she was anadult woman, she did look much
younger, sick and frail as thethree spent time together.

(01:11:44):
Much younger, sick and frail asthe three spent time together.
Katerina pointed out thatAnnika was drawn to Clara, which
was remarkable since shetypically cowered from strangers
.
Not long after, clara agreed toadopt Annika to give her a
stable, loving home for the fewyears she had left.
Before we get into how thisfraudulent adoption was pulled
off, let's talk a little bitabout Barboa.

(01:12:05):
She was born with an enlargedthyroid and deficiency of the
pituitary gland which stuntedher physical development.
She was also diagnosed withepilepsy at a young age.
Barboa's physical ailmentsprevented her from doing a lot
of basic adult duties on her own, meaning she relied more and
more on the help of others.

(01:12:26):
Barboa met Katerina whilestudying musical composition in
college in 1996.
Over the next few years theydeveloped a friendship and
Katerina hired her at thequestionable daycare I've
already mentioned.
Katerina also invited Barboa tolive with her, since she had
problems navigating everydaylife.
She frequently locked herselfout of her apartment, forgot to

(01:12:49):
turn off running faucets andtook hours to even vacuum one
single room.
Barboa quit her job at thedaycare because of an
undisclosed illness in 2005.
This didn't come as a surpriseto her co-worker, since she had
lost a ton of weight before sheresigned.
Now there's one moreinteresting fact about Barboa

(01:13:10):
and Katerina before we get backto the Annika impersonation and
adoption.
At some point in theirrelationship, barboa introduced
Katerina to her father, josephSkrilla, the leader of a cult
offshoot of the Grail movement.
Bet you didn't see cults coming, did you, remy?

Remi (01:13:28):
I sure didn't no.

Ashley (01:13:30):
The Grail Movement was founded by Oscar Bernhardt in
1926.
In true cult-like fashion,Oscar claimed to be a
reincarnation of a prophet wholived around the same time as
Moses.

Remi (01:13:43):
It's like all these guys read the same handbook.

Ashley (01:13:46):
He also preached that your spirit could return to
heaven by performing good deeds.
After publishing a book of histeachings, he bought a large
chunk of land in Austria andplanned to turn it into a
compound for his followers.
His death in 1941 was marked asGod calling him back to heaven.
Now the Wikipedia page for theGrail movement is a bit

(01:14:07):
convoluted, but supposedly ithas around 10,000 members
worldwide.
But each faction is split intodifferent sects that essentially
operate independently of eachother.
Barboa's father, joseph Skrilla, was a member of the Grail
movement but split off andcreated his own sect 11 years

(01:14:29):
before the Karim case.
He received disability paymentsfor most of his life since he
was badly injured when he felldown the stairs as a child.
To supplement his income, heconvinced people to invest in
elaborate schemes with,unsurprisingly, no one seeing
very many, if any, return.
He also pretended to beconnected to international

(01:14:51):
intelligence agencies andmilitaries.
For example, he supposedlytried to sell several tanks
which I do not think he had tothe Azerbaijan and Armenian
governments.
The investigation into theKarim case revealed that nearly
every adult involved, with theexception of Clara, was
connected to Skrilla's cult atsome time.

(01:15:13):
Clara initiated adoptionproceedings in 2005, still under
the impression that Annika wasa victimized, developmentally
delayed, terminally ill child.
This did come as a surprise toClara's family and friends,
since she never talked aboutwanting to adopt or even having
more children.
The adoption process wascomplicated since Annika was

(01:15:36):
undocumented, but Katerinadevised an elaborate scheme to
circumvent this.
First she approached theirmother, aliska, and told her the
girl's sympathetic tale, makingsure to explain the danger she
was in if the ruthless Norwegiansex traffickers found her.
Aliska was sympathetic andagreed to perjure herself in
court if it meant helping herdaughters give an unfortunate

(01:15:58):
child a safe home.
Per legal documents, the storythey came up with was this
Little Annika was the child ofdrug-addicted parents known as
Katerina and Clara's grandmother, antonia.
Antonia occasionally helpedAnnika's parents by babysitting,
but one day in 2000, theydropped her off and never
returned.
Antonia unsuccessfully tried tolocate them and cared for

(01:16:22):
Annika until she died in 2004.
Tried to locate them and caredfor Annika until she died in
2004.
That is when Katarina says shegot possession of Annika, or
that's what they told the court.
Clara and Annika cleared everyhurdle of adoption proceedings,
which included court appearances, social work evaluations and
DNA sequencing of Annika.
So this is how they had thesample to compare.

(01:16:44):
After Annika disappeared, itappears Barboa actually was the
one to attend every courthearing and evaluation, meaning
she fooled the judge and everysocial worker who evaluated her.
To do this, she brought toysand stuffed animals with her to
every appointment, took on themannerisms of a kid and wore her

(01:17:04):
hair in pigtails.
As for that DNA, katerina toldClara it was imperative a
different kid be used tominimize the possibility that
Annika's abusers would find her.
It was later learned thatBarboa and Katerina brought in a
married couple from Skrilla'scult for this part of the scheme
.
The couple had a similar agedaughter named Maria, and that

(01:17:28):
is whose DNA was taken for theadoption proceedings.
To ensure no one would realizethey were taking blood from a
different kid, maria was toldshe was playing a game that
required her to observe Annikaand copy her mannerisms.
Her parents even dyed her hairand bought her brown contacts to
closely resemble Barboa.

(01:17:49):
Annika slash Barboa moved inwith Clara and her sons in
December 2005.
She was apprehensive of theboys at first, but quickly
warmed up to them.
Taking care of Annika proved tobe more difficult than Clara
was expecting.
In addition to her medicalneeds, she was emotionally
demanding.
She regularly asked for giftsand treats and had explosive

(01:18:11):
outbursts when she didn't gether way.
Sometimes her behavior was evendangerous.
For example, she oncethreatened to jump out a window
while holding a knife.
Clara also had to keep a closeeye on her at train stations,
since she always seemed to be onthe verge of jumping onto the
tracks.
Despite how taxing she was,clara did everything she could

(01:18:31):
to placate the girl and care forher.
Despite Annika's complexmedical needs, katerina refused
to let Clara take her to ahospital.
Instead, she told Clara sheenlisted the help of a doctor
who worked for the organizationthat brought Annika into her
care.
A few months after the adoptionwas finalized, clara began

(01:18:53):
getting regular texts and emailsfrom this doctor, which
consisted of medical advice andreassurances that Clara was the
best person to take care of poorAnnika.
Katerina also gave her sisterwritten treatment plans she said
came from the man.
Over time, the treatment plansbecame stranger and stranger.
For example, he prescribeddaily spinal massages, some of

(01:19:17):
which lasted for up to eighthours, to treat
hydrocephalopathy, a conditioncharacterized by abnormal
buildup of cerebral spinal fluidin the brain.
He also told Clara that itwould probably be good to
massage the girls' netherregions for a little bit, just
to you know, bond them.
Although Clara asked severaltimes to meet with this doctor

(01:19:39):
in person, he only agreed to doso once, at midnight, in a
poorly lit area.
He only agreed to do so once atmidnight, in a poorly lit area.
He apparently showed herAnnika's medical records and his
diplomatic passport, which wasenough to convince her of his
legitimacy.

Remi (01:19:53):
Really low standards on that.

Ashley (01:20:01):
Well, as you've probably guessed, investigators later
learned this doctor was a fraud,who probably never existed at
all, since every email addressand phone number was traced
right back to Katarina.

Remi (01:20:08):
Shocker.

Ashley (01:20:10):
Since Annika required constant care and attention,
clara relied on her parents moreand more to look after Jacob
and Andre.
She became withdrawn, depressedand slowly cut off contact with
everyone in her life, exceptfor her sister, katerina.
The few people who saw Annikaonly caught occasional glimpses
of what appeared to be a sickchild, sometimes being carried

(01:20:33):
in and out of the house.
By July 2006, which is about ayear before the boys were found
in the home, clara stoppedletting Soufall see his sons,
claiming they were too busy withsummer camp and educational
programs Around this time shealso ceased contact with her
sister Gabriela and her parents,citing her need to spend more

(01:20:54):
time with the boys because theywere exhibiting behavioral
problems.
Although she assumed they wereacting out to get her attention,
katerina and Annika's supposeddoctor thought the problem was
far worse.
They repeatedly told Clara theboys were cruel to Annika and
needed harsh discipline andtough love.
At their instruction, clarastarted to hit them whenever

(01:21:17):
they did anything wrong andsometimes locked them in small
rooms overnight.
Since this corporal punishmentdidn't turn them into perfect
little angels, clara wasrepeatedly told that they needed
a serious attitude adjustmentto prevent them from becoming
anti-social adults and ending upin prison.
Katerina and the doctor thoughta taste of life behind bars

(01:21:38):
would scare them straight.
Thus the week at the torturecottage was planned.

Remi (01:21:43):
I don't like the sound of that at all.

Ashley (01:21:50):
So, except for the letters Barboa sent to the media
pretending to be Annika, therewere no sightings of her for
months.
After the authorities learnedof the girl's true identity, she
showed up at the Czech embassyin Copenhagen, which is about
480 miles away from theChildren's Institute in Brno.
She was seeking a new passporton June 15, 2007.

(01:22:15):
She was in the company of fourmen her father, joseph Skrilla,
a lawyer, a former policeofficer named Joseph Kalinsky,
and another man seeminglyconnected to the cult.
Since Barboa wasn't a wantedperson at the time and police
had no evidence that she wasinvolved in the abuse of Jacob
and Andre, the embassy couldn'thold her, but she agreed to

(01:22:38):
leave a hair and DNA sample,stay in contact with authorities
and cooperate with theinvestigation.
Stay in contact withauthorities and cooperate with
the investigation.
Not long after this sighting,the former police officer,
joseph Kalinsky, begancommunicating with the press and
authorities.
As Barboa's spokesman, he gavesparse details about her escape
from the Institute, other thansaying she hid in the woods for

(01:23:02):
a while before traveling bytrain and eventually reuniting
with her father.
Now, as for why sheimpersonated a 13 year old girl
for almost two years, he assuredauthorities it wasn't for
nefarious reasons.
Rather Barboa claimed shestarted identifying with kids
while working at the daycarewith Katerina, since she was
never taken seriously as anadult.
She adopted the mannerisms ofthe children she cared for to

(01:23:25):
feel happy, safe and accepted.
Katerina understood thisso-called age dysphoria, as
Kolinsky called it, and agreedto help her assume a new
identity.

Remi (01:23:37):
Is age dysphoria an actual thing?

Ashley (01:23:39):
No, she's basically just saying I felt like I was a kid,
so I decided to pretend to be akid.

Remi (01:23:45):
Just making sure.

Ashley (01:23:47):
As for the child abuse, Kulinski insisted Barboa was
innocent of all wrongdoing.
Barboa claimed the only timeAndre was locked under the
stairs was the day of the raid,and only for two hours to give
him time to cool down after hethreatened to kill his family.
Shortly after Barboa's trueidentity was learned, the Bruno
Children's Institute filed suitagainst her for illegal

(01:24:08):
impersonation, Although shewasn't charged with child abuse
yet.
Investigators knew she was anadult and had to have witnessed
some of what went on, but failedto report it.
They contacted Kalinskynumerous times, asking for
Barboa to come back to Zizekiafor further questioning,
numerous times asking for Barboato come back to Zizekia for
further questioning, but eachtime he said she was too afraid.
Two interviews were scheduledfor July, one with Interpol and

(01:24:32):
one over Skype, but sheno-showed and dropped off the
map once again.
Although prosecutors didn't wantto move forward with the trial
until she was found, authoritiesdid continue their
investigation.
A series of raids of members ofSkrilla's cult turned up dozens
of forged medical documentsthat resembled what Clara turned
over to police in an attempt toprove Annika's backstory.

(01:24:54):
The details given by Jacob andAndre about their torture in the
cottage eventually helpedpolice identify the other people
.
In addition to Hannah Basova,aka Aunt Nancy Katerina's
daycare employee, two other menwere present Barboa's brother,
Jan Skrilla, and Jan Tirek, anowner of a shelter specializing

(01:25:16):
in rehabilitating aggressivedogs, hence those dog cages.
Hannah Basova denied wrongdoingand claimed anything Andre said
about being locked in thedaycare's basement was him
mistaking his confinement forbrief timeouts.

Remi (01:25:30):
Brief timeouts, I'd say the condition of that room when
they found it would beg todiffer.

Ashley (01:25:37):
Since it was obvious Turek provided the dog kennels.
He was arrested for causinggrievous bodily harm in
September 2007.
But there still wasn't enoughevidence to arrest the other two
.
Clara and Katerina remainedlargely uncooperative.
The few times Clara did speakto police, she insisted her
intentions were pure andregretted how her boys were

(01:25:59):
treated, but she never saidanything about a possible
motivation or reason.
This led prosecution to formthree possible theories, all
related to Skrilla's cult.
The first was that Clara wasinvolved in the cult and was
operating under the Grailmovement's encouragement of a
firm and strong-handed approachto child-rearing and discipline

(01:26:20):
to ensure kids grow up to berighteous adults.
The second theory was much moresinister.
Through the investigation,police learned Clara and
Katerina rented three homeswhich, on paper, they shouldn't
be able to afford.
The room Andre was locked inalso contained a high-quality
imported camera.
Was it possible that the womenwere selling child torture porn?

(01:26:44):
And finally, the wildest theoryof the three stemmed off, jacob
once saying Annika was specialand chosen by God.
He also recalled times he andAndre were woken up in the
middle of the night and told shewas going to be beaten unless
they each agreed to take onelashing for her, which they
almost always did.
Maybe this whole idea was a wayto reinforce the boy's loyalty

(01:27:08):
to Barboa because she was somesort of idol or religious icon.
Regardless of the motivation,the investigation stalled by
mid-2007.
2008 kicked off with a seeminglyunrelated event.
On January 5, 2008, michael Riowas arrested while returning a
rental car in Norway.

(01:27:29):
He was apprehended because his13-year-old traveling companion,
a boy named Adam Farner, wasabducted from a youth center in
Oslo several weeks prior.
Adam was placed at the facilityin mid-December 2007 because
his father, martin Farner, wasarrested for suspicion of child
abuse During a group outing.

(01:27:50):
A few days after, he ran awayto an idling car that quickly
sped off.
Authorities assumed he wasabducted, possibly by someone
working for his dad.
Three days after that, adam wasspotted at a hotel with Michael
Rhea 300 miles away, but thepair were gone by the time.
Police arrived Immediatelyafter the missing child and

(01:28:12):
alleged kidnapper wereapprehended.
Investigators made a shockingdiscovery Adam was, in fact,
33-year-old Barboa SkrlovaSkrlova.
They were extradited and landedat the Prague airport on

(01:28:34):
January 10, 2008.
Barboa arrived holding a teddybear and a children's book.
The real Adam turned out to besafe and sound in Czechia with
his mom and siblings.
So the child abuse chargesagainst Martin Farner were
dropped and investigatorslearned just how Barboa pulled
off her second childimpersonation.

(01:28:55):
In 2007, martin worked as aplaywright and lived about an
hour and a half from Bruno withhis wife and three kids, one of
which was 13-year-old Adam.
Martin was part of the Grailmovement and had been acquainted
with Barboa for a decade, butthey hadn't spoken in several
years.
In May 2007, right after sheescaped the Children's Institute
, she showed up with two sectmembers asking for help.

(01:29:18):
Since she seemed scared andsick, they agreed to take her in
, thinking they were helping afriend in need.
A few months later, barboa andthe family moved to Sweden,
seemingly because Martin got anew job at a theater.
Once there, joseph Skrilla metwith the family and asked if
Barboa could stay just a littlebit longer, only until the media

(01:29:38):
storm from the Karim childabuse case died down.
Barboa then began to take overthe family's entire life and
came up with the idea ofimpersonating Adam to help her
blend in.

Remi (01:29:50):
I did not see this coming.
I really, really didn't.

Ashley (01:29:53):
To their credit, Martin and Helena did try to talk her
out of it, but her persistencewore them down.
Barboa then shaved her head,bound her breasts and insisted
everyone call her Adam, whichhad to have been so weird for
the actual Adam that was stillliving with the family.
As all this was going down, asthe school year approached, she

(01:30:14):
decided she needed some moresocialization and wanted to go
to school as Adam.
They again tried to talk herout of it.
Once Martin relented, Helenarealized she needed to get her
kids away from this chaos andmove them back to Sezequia.
Martin stayed behind and triedto manage Barboa the best he
could.
It wasn't long before teachersnoticed Adam's strange behavior.

(01:30:37):
He was quiet and studious, buthe also seemed fearful, looked
to be at least 16, and refusedto play sports with the other
kids.
After a few months, he startedtelling disturbing stories about
being sexually abused by hisdad and pimped out to older men.
While speaking to apsychologist, he drew seven kids

(01:30:59):
covered in blood with a manstanding over them.
This is what led to Martin'sarrest and Adam's removal from
the home.
I don't understand why she doesthis, because it really just
puts her in such a precarioussituation of being caught.

Remi (01:31:14):
She did a lot of things in the movie that would have led
to her being easily caught aswell.
I am not sure the motivationsbehind the real person or the
fictitious one not share themotivations behind the real
person or the fictitious one.

Ashley (01:31:28):
Barboa seemed to cooperate during her first
formal police interview onJanuary 15, 2008.
She claimed she was abused withAndre and Jacob and showed
several scars, cuts and burnsthat initially appeared to
support this.
Investigators spoke to her afew more times in January, but

(01:31:49):
her answers were vague andnonspecific.
Throughout this entire ordeal,clara had held onto the belief
that Annika was real.
After Barboa was arrested andshe was forced to face the truth
, clara finally spoke to policeand told them Barboa
participated in some of theabuse, in that she beat the boys
a few times and was the one tohold Andre's head underwater.

(01:32:09):
Barboa was willing to talkagain after she was charged with
child abuse on February 11,2008, but this time her story
was drastically different fromanything we've heard thus far.
Although she previously claimedto have assumed the identity of
Annika because of age dysphoria, now she accused the Morova

(01:32:29):
sisters and Hanna-Bassova offorcing her into the
transformation through years ofphysical, psychological and
chemical abuse.

Remi (01:32:38):
She's just throwing anyone she can under the bus at this
point.

Ashley (01:32:42):
She claimed that they locked her in the basement of
the daycare, injected her withdrugs and forced her to take
pills, while they trained her onassuming the identities of kids
with the intention of sellingher, to quote evil men who do
ugly things to kids.
She credited her escape fromthe children's institution to
two unnamed men who rescued herfrom her life of rape and

(01:33:05):
beatings.
Her account as to why sheimpersonated Adam was similar.
The investigation finallyconcluded on April 8, 2008.
The Morova sisters, HannahBasova and Jan Skrilla, were
facing up to 12 years in prisonfor child abuse and depriving
the liberty of minors.
Barboa and Tirek were lookingat eight years for aggravated

(01:33:28):
cruelty.
Katerina and Barboa were alsoindicted for malicious damage to
the reputation of the BrunoChildren's Institute for the way
the impersonation of Annika andher escape tarnished the
agency's reputation.
They were both acquitted ofthis charge on May 9, 2008,.
Since the deception began yearsprior and wasn't done with the

(01:33:51):
intention of hurting the agency,the trial of one of the biggest
media cases in Czechia'shistory kicked off on June 17,
2008.
Clara was the first to testify.
She tearfully confirmed thevalidity of the charges and was
the only defendant to admitguilt.
She maintained that she lovedher sons, was only trying to

(01:34:13):
correct their behavior and actedunder the instruction of
Katarina.
As for the prosecution's threetheories that I highlighted
earlier, she denied ever makingany sort of torture, porn and
affiliation with the Grailmovement.
Jan Tirek testified next.
He said his only connection tothe case was those dog cages and

(01:34:34):
although he didn't dispute thathe was at the cottage, he
claimed he didn't know whyKaterina asked for the kennels
and wouldn't have given them toher if he had, which doesn't
really explain why you hung outat the cabin for a week while
these kids were beinghorrifically abused, Like Clara.
He also denied involvement withthe Grail movement and

(01:34:55):
knowledge of Annika's trueidentity.
Next up was Barboa.
She maintained that she wasforced into the role of Annika,
repeatedly raped and only heldAndre's head underwater because
Katerina forced her to.
Although she said the cuts andwelts on her skin were evidence
of torture, medical examinerstestified that most were old or

(01:35:18):
superficial abrasions.
They also noticed that many ofthe scars from so-called
cigarette burns slightly changedpositions and were the exact
size of the back of a pen,leading them to conclude that
they were self-inflicted.
As for any larger scars, theywere from a breast reduction and
liposuction she had in college.

(01:35:39):
It was also highly improbablethat she was ever raped, since
her hymen was still intact.
Katerina Basova and Jan Skrilladid not testify.
Prior to the trial, theprosecution hired several
forensic experts to evaluate thedefendants.
Clara and Barboa were the onlytwo to meaningfully participate.

(01:36:00):
Clara was diagnosed withhistrionic and dependent
personality disorder, symptomsof which include a pattern of
excessive emotionality andattention-seeking and a need to
be taken care of by others thatresults in submissive and clingy
behavior.
These features caused her to beeasily manipulated by her
sister because she desired herapproval.

(01:36:22):
Because she desired herapproval, Katerina was also
diagnosed with a personalitydisorder, likely antisocial
personality disorder, since shewas described as intelligent,
authoritative, self-centered andlacking in empathy.
They also believe she hadsadistic tendencies, which she
fulfilled by mistreating hernephews.

(01:36:42):
Barboa was also diagnosed withhistrionic personality disorder.
The evaluators did not believeher abuse claims, since there
was never any evidence of PTSDor drug withdrawal from the
substances she said she wasforced to take for years.
They also thought she wasn't asdefenseless or submissive as
she pretended to be.

(01:37:02):
Instead, she acted infantilewhen it suited her and made a
deliberate decision toimpersonate a kid every time she
did so.
Barbeau's defense had two oftheir own psychiatric experts
evaluate her, and boy oh boywere their findings different.
They diagnosed her with PTSDand believed her attachment to

(01:37:24):
her alleged abusers, primarilyKaterina, was a form of
Stockholm Syndrome.
Rather than being manipulative,they thought she was naturally
submissive, especially to peopleshe viewed as authority figures
.
Instead of a prison sentence,they recommended she receive
inpatient mental health care.
The discrepancies between theopposing experts caused an

(01:37:47):
uproar in court.
The judge actually paused thetrial for two and a half months
and ordered new experts toevaluate Barboa, this time ones
that weren't hired by theprosecution or defense.

Remi (01:38:00):
Neutral parties.
That's a good idea.

Ashley (01:38:03):
Once the trial resumed on October 16, 2008, eight
specialists from the ModalUniversity Hospital in Prague
testified that Barboa hadhistrionic personality disorder
and a dissociative disorder thatcaused disturbances in her
identity, awareness, memory andperceptions.

Remi (01:38:35):
So primarily backing up the prosecution's analysis.

Ashley (01:38:40):
Yeah, it was definitely in line with what the
prosecution has said.
Katerina changed her mind abouttestifying and took the stand
the first day the trial resumed.
She began by reading a writtenstatement explaining that she
took Barboa to a psychiatrist in2003 and that the dissociative
disorder caused her tounintentionally exaggerate

(01:39:01):
things and misperceive reality,which is why she thought the
medication she was prescribedwere drugs and the behavioral
therapies were torture.
Katerina went on to say thatClara offered to help Barboa
through her age dysphoria byadopting and taking care of her
meaning.
She implied that Clara knewBarboa was impersonating a kid
and was actually an adult allalong.

(01:39:22):
As for the abuse of the boys,she testified that she and Clara
, with the help of quote, a manin whom they had implicit trust,
devised a re-education programto curb their unruly behavior,
which was the purpose ofeverything that transpired.
She then refused to answer anymore questions.

(01:39:44):
Clara was very distraught whileher sister testified at one
point, yelling why do you haveto take it away from me?
I want it all back.
Why are you lying?
Can't you see?
You took away my children.
I want them back.
At closing, she again expressedremorse for everything she did.
She said she wasn't expecting alenient sentence, but wanted to

(01:40:06):
make it clear that she lovedher sons, thought she was acting
in their best interest andwouldn't have hurt them without
outside influence.
The judge took three days todecide the verdict and sentence
On October 24, 2008,.
He found each defendant guiltyof their charges and ordered
them to maximum security prisons.
Katerina was sentenced to 10years, clara to 9, hannah Basova

(01:40:31):
and Jan Skrilla to 6, and JanTurek and Barboa to 5.

Remi (01:40:36):
Every time I hear about someone's sentence in another
country it seems alarminglylight compared to what someone
like that would get here in theStates.

Ashley (01:40:47):
Yeah, at the very least I would think the sisters would
have gotten longer sentences,because this abuse was horrific.

Remi (01:40:56):
It's unforgivable.

Ashley (01:40:58):
After the trial, a unit specializing in organized crime
launched an investigation intowhether other abusers associated
with the Grail movement wereinvolved.
The daycare center was alsounder intense scrutiny, since
five of the six defendantsworked there at some point.
In the end, there was noevidence of additional cult

(01:41:18):
involvement, much less a childtorture pornography ring.
The organized crime unit triedto find Joseph Skrilla, but his
whereabouts since he showed upwith Barboa in Denmark in June
2007 are unknown.
Although the leader of theGrail movement publicly
denounced Skrilla and stressedthat he was not involved with

(01:41:39):
the mainstream movement.
For over a decade theirreputation and image was
tarnished.
For over a decade theirreputation and image was
tarnished.
Jacob and Andre were diagnosedwith depression, various phobias
and PTSD, but they graduallyimproved with therapy.
There were periods ofregression, primarily related to
cruel schoolmates.
Although their caregivers didtheir best to shield them from

(01:42:01):
the media, other kidsoccasionally slipped them.
Newspaper articles sometimesthat showed their mom crying on
the front page, that wererelated to the trial.
Andre was even mocked becausethe media got hold of that baby
monitor video of him naked andthought it was a brilliant idea
to broadcast it on the eveningnews.

Remi (01:42:22):
That's in such poor taste.

Ashley (01:42:25):
On a positive note, gifts poured in after their mom
was sentenced to prison.
An anonymous donor even paidfor two summer trips to the
Italian seaside to give them achange of scenery and get their
minds off what was going on backhome.
Although the trial ended inOctober 2008, they remained at
the Children's Institute forfour years while the court

(01:42:46):
decided who would get custody ofthem.
Their father was out, since hewas unemployed and couldn't
provide for them anymore, whichleft Clara's parents as the only
viable option.
This was complicated by thefact that Alishka was charged
with perjury for lying atBarboa's adoption hearing In
June 2011,.
A judge concluded that hermotives for lying weren't

(01:43:07):
malicious and she was grantedcustody of the boys.
They were allowed tooccasionally visit their mom in
prison once their conditionimproved.
Clara was paroled in October2013 after serving just five
years.
Since she reconciled with herfamily.
While incarcerated, her sister,gabrilla, helped her find a
place to live and got her a jobas a secretary at an employment

(01:43:30):
agency.
She interacted with her sonsmore, but they weren't allowed
to live with her.
Katerina was released in June2014.
Unlike her sister, she did notrebuild the relationships with
her family.
There were no details aboutwhen the other four defendants,
including Barboa, were released,or what happened to them after.

(01:43:51):
And that is the true story ofJean-Colette Serra's orphan.

Remi (01:43:57):
Wow, even though the real person didn't murder anyone, I
think she may be worse thanEsther.
This is a crazy story, and whywould they change that twist?
What a crazy reveal that wouldhave been to find out that the
little boy was actually a33-year-old woman.

(01:44:18):
That would have been way moremind-blowing.
What a crazy story that wasdulled down into a pretty
generic horror movie.
In my opinion, this real storyis insane.
I really was not expecting somany twists and turns, cults and
so many things I know right.

Ashley (01:44:37):
I was surprised enough when I found out that Barboa was
impersonating a 13-year-oldgirl, but then, when she did it
again with a boy, my mind wasjust blown.

Remi (01:44:49):
Yeah, that is way more mind-blowing than the reveal
that Esther is a 33-year-oldwoman.

Ashley (01:44:55):
What do you think about Clara the mom?

Remi (01:44:58):
It's hard to say.
Really.
It seems like she was genuinelyremorseful, but that doesn't
excuse what she did at all.
What do you think?

Ashley (01:45:09):
I do believe her claims when she testified that you know
, I thought I was helping and itseems that she was manipulated
and brainwashed really over apretty big chunk of time by
someone who she seemed to lovethe most her sister.
But I agree that it does notexcuse her behavior.

(01:45:30):
It helps understand it a littlebit, I guess.
But it's just really hard toimagine getting to the point
where you're cutting skin offyour son's butt and eating it,
like there's a lot of times inthere that she should have been
like um, maybe this is going alittle bit too far.

Remi (01:45:46):
Yeah, there's no coming back from that.
So I do believe that she feltremorse and I do think she did
the right thing by admitting toher part and taking
responsibility, but it willnever, ever excuse what she
participated in and allowed tohappen, even if she was being
manipulated.
And I think that brings usaround to what normally would be

(01:46:10):
our objection of the week.
But we've decided to introducea new feature to this part of
our podcast.
So with a movie like Orphan,where it's very obvious that
they changed almost everything,we are going to be focusing on
the few things that this filmgot right.
So this will be our sustainedof the week instead of objection

(01:46:34):
.

Orphan (clip) (01:46:34):
If I hear objection and sustain one more
time today, I think I'm going toscream Objection, sustain.

Remi (01:46:41):
Ashley, do you want to kick it off this week with the
one thing that you feel thisfilm got right out of the true
events?

Ashley (01:46:50):
Sure, I had two things written here, but I'm going to
go with the medical conditionthat they said Esther had in the
movie.
I think I said it wrong earlierbut the hydrocephaly which I
probably just said it wrongagain, but that condition is
what the real Barboa did have,so I'm going to give it to them

(01:47:11):
for getting the disorder right.

Remi (01:47:13):
That's a pretty good one.
It beats mine.
Mine had to do with herappearance and even though the
script described her as beingvery different, Isababel Furman
actually fits the description ofthe real girl quite well, with
the pigtails, brown eyes, andwhen she was impersonating the
little boy she bound her breasts, and in the film it actually

(01:47:35):
does show a scene where she hasher chest bound.
So physical stuff.
They got correct, even thoughin the script it wasn't correct.
But I do feel like yours is thebetter of our sustained this
week.

Ashley (01:47:48):
The other one that was interesting is Esther was 33 in
the movie and that is how oldBarboa was when she was
apprehended.

Remi (01:47:57):
Well, congratulations, ashley.
You get the sustainment for ourvery first try at this new
feature on our show, which I'mpositive will be back.
But now we are at our mainevent our verdict of the week.

Narrator (01:48:14):
At the conclusion of each episode, our hosts will
deliver a verdict based on thefilm's accuracy.
If the film is an honestportrayal of the events, then it
will earn a not guilty verdict.
If the film is an honestportrayal of the events, then it
will earn a not guilty verdict.
If the adaptation is mostlyfactual but creative liberties
were taken for the sake ofentertainment, the film will be
declared a mistrial.
But if the film ultimatelystrays too far from the truth,

(01:48:41):
then it will be condemned asguilty and sentenced to a life
behind bars.

Ashley (01:48:43):
You know, usually we try to cause a little suspense with
the verdict by going back andforth explaining things,
discussing it.
But, Rami, do you think wereally need to do that here?

Remi (01:48:54):
No, it's pretty obvious on this one, and we're both in
full agreement this is a guiltymovie.
I think that goes withoutsaying.

Ashley (01:49:06):
When there are only a few things that are even kept
the same from the true story tothe movie, that's a pretty dead
giveaway that you're looking ata guilty verdict.
This is on the level of screamguilt.
It's bad.

Remi (01:49:17):
They literally just took the concept of an adopted child
who was actually an adult andhad nefarious purposes behind it
and twisted it into, like Isaid before, a pretty generic
horror movie.
And the true story, in myopinion, is much more
interesting.
And the real Barboa is a very,very fascinating character

(01:49:40):
psychologically that I thinkcould have been very interesting
to see portrayed on screen.
I think Isabel did amazing withEsther, but I think it would
have been interesting to see hertackle Barboa.

Ashley (01:49:53):
And now that Orphan is in our rearview mirror, Remy,
what do we have coming up in thenext two weeks?

Remi (01:50:01):
We are at our season finale episodes, where we take
two different films that share acommon theme, and this season
we will be covering Malcolm Xand starting things off with
American History X.
Two very different films abouttwo extremely different
ideologies and very differentpeople, and I am very interested

(01:50:24):
to analyze these films and findout the true stories behind
them.

Ashley (01:50:28):
I'm actually very jealous of you going into these
next few weeks.
Both of these movies I know arecritically acclaimed.
I have seen American History X.
It's been a very long time Iremember loving it, and I've
actually never seen Malcolm X.

Remi (01:50:44):
I have seen both films.
They're very different and I ama fan of both films.
I think it's DenzelWashington's best performance
ever, and probably EdwardNorton's best performance ever
as well.
But that is two weeks from now.
We are going to leave you witha little taste of the trailer
for the movie we will becovering next time American

(01:51:05):
History X.
And until then, court isadjourned.

Look, I told you I don't want you all coming up
here to see me.
I don't care what you told me.
Okay, I'm trying to get throughthis and you're just making it
harder.
You think?
you're the only one doing time,derek, you think I'm not in here
with you.
He was his mother's hope.
He's gone.
You don't know the world.
Your children are living in hisfather's legacy it's everywhere
.

Narrator (01:51:29):
I look now what this affirmative black shit the white
man march is on.

See this that means not welcome and his
brother's hero I trust you,darren drop your weapon and his
brother's hero.
I trust you, derek, drop yourweapon Dad no.

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