December 31, 2022 • 35 mins
Together with Matt we go through a variety of CRO agency topics, like how to educate your clients and how to hire for your team. Guest: Matt Scaysbrook URL: https://www.cro.cafe/guest/matt-scaysbrook
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Episode Transcript
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Guido (00:00):
Matt, welcome to the Siroc Faye podcast. And, of
course, we'd first like to knowa bit more about, you and your
background and why on earth yougot started at Siro.
Matt (00:09):
Yeah. So my name is Matt Scaysbrook. I'm director of
optimization at We Teach CRO. Iguess, like many people, I kind
of fell into, fell into CRO. Somy first, my first role, the
company that I joined had justinstalled Google Analytics on
their website, and no one in theteam knew how to use it, because
(00:32):
because I was the new guy.
I was I was the burden oneveryone, you know, because I
knew nothing. So when werealized nobody knew it, I put
my hand up and said, okay. Well,let let me learn, so that I had
something that I could actuallybe useful with, rather than
just, you know, sort of suckingthe life out of everyone else
constantly asking questions. So,yeah, it it started it started
(00:53):
there. But I think for me, youknow, it sits CRO sits so
neatly, on the sort of theintersection between creative,
analytical, and and technical.
So I've never I've never feltpigeonholed in that, in that
way. I think also as a person, II judge the value of a lot of
(01:14):
things based on the the size ofthe opportunity rather than
exactly on its value right now.I think just that that natural
mindset makes, makes CRO aperfect, a perfect industry for
me to be in.
Guido (01:28):
Yeah. And, Keito, tell us a bit about more about, the
company you founded. To me, itseems at least fully based on
the name. It's it's quite aunique approach, already
because, many agencies will willsay, okay. Give us your, access
to to your your clients' data,and, we'll help you improve your
your conversion rates.
But, we teach hero implies thatyou don't do that, approach, but
(01:54):
I'd rather, teach the clientshow to do. So what is that?
Matt (01:57):
I think there's a couple of there's a couple of parts to
it. So when when I first startedthe business, 5 years ago, there
was the the original sort ofproposition, was that we would,
over time, teach, teach ourclients to take over the various
bits of work that that we weredoing. And that's that's sort of
(02:19):
how we how we settled on thename. And what what we found was
that, that that propositionopened a lot of doors for us. We
could talk to we could talk toclients that we may not
otherwise have have got a chanceto speak to, given our our size.
And it was it was it was metreally, really positively. Like,
(02:39):
yeah. This is a great idea. Whenit then got down to to signing
contracts, what you found wasthat, unfortunately, most of
the, most of the stakeholderswho would sign those contracts,
they just wanted someone to doit for them. They frankly didn't
want to invest that much inupskilling their teams
Guido (02:59):
Yeah.
Matt (03:01):
Which is a tad sad. But I don't think that's I don't think
it's changed all that much, overthe last over the last 5 years.
So, yeah, initially, it was, itit was to have a a different
approach. But what we found overover time as we've worked
through is that the more thatyou the more that you share
(03:21):
about what you know, it hasmultiple benefits. So firstly,
any anyone who works, agencyside in any in any kind of role
knows that the the more that aclient knows about your subject,
the easier it is to worktogether and the better work
that you do.
You know, if there are 5 or 6,assumptions or or, deductions
(03:43):
that you've made along a pathbefore you you get to the
discussion that you're currentlyon, The fewer of those that you
have to explain in detail, theeasier it is, and the faster you
you get to the, you get to theoutputs. So for us, explaining
to our clients how we how wereach certain, how we reach
certain conclusions is hugelyimportant. It helps us all be
(04:06):
more efficient. That means thatthe service that the client
receives is is better. And, youknow, from a a business side as
an agency, that that keeps ourour retention rates up.
You know, we have happy clientswho know more today than they
knew, than they knew yesterday.I think the other side of it,
the more that you the more thatyou give away about how to how
(04:28):
to execute programs at scale,the more it solidifies why
you're necessary. So we we'veseen this, we've seen this
recently with, with a largeclient of ours where, you know,
another another area of their,of their team, has started
running tests, as well, most ofthem server side, rather than
(04:51):
rather than client side. And,initially, they did not believe
that our input, you know, as aas a third party was necessary.
Our main contact there, whowe've worked with side by side
for, well, for over 3 years now,he was insistent that we had
oversight of what was beingdone.
And as those first sort of fewtests started to get rolled out,
(05:14):
they became to realize why wewere there. So it seems like,
okay. Well, test entry isn'tbeing logged properly. So, you
know, the data that you'repassing into GA, that's starting
at the wrong point. So you'renot seeing a full picture.
You're only seeing people whocomplete what you've changed,
not people who see what you'vechanged. And there was a there
was a string of other of otherelements to it. So I think the
(05:37):
the, the view there is that bygiving away and sharing what you
know, it doesn't it doesn'tdevalue, it doesn't devalue the
agency. It only increases thevalue of the agency. The more
the client knows, the more theysee the work that goes into into
having a program running atscale.
Guido (05:57):
Yeah. And, but then how much time roughly would say you
you still be you're still ableto spend on teaching those
people? I
Matt (06:07):
don't I don't see it as separate to what we do on a day
to day basis. It is what we do
Guido (06:11):
You're learning on a job. On a
Matt (06:13):
day to day basis. Yeah. And that that applies both for,
both for our clients, and forand for our team members. We
have one one of our, one of ourhires earlier this year, he
described our hiring strategyas, as gathering the waifs and
strays. We don't we've hiredpeople with very abnormal
(06:37):
backgrounds, you know, peoplewho haven't come from a CRO
background or even an analyticsbackground or even a digital
background, for for that matter.
And we can do that because wehave, you know, we have a core
group of people who, who knowtheir work inside out, And we
have the I guess I I'vedescribed it as we are big
(07:00):
enough to support them, and toget to get intelligent bright
people to understand our work,but, but we're also, small
enough that their work actuallymatters, on a day to day basis.
So, yeah, I think the theteaching part, as I said, it
started it started as aproposition that frankly never
worked, but it's now become thecore of what we do. And if we if
(07:24):
we didn't do that on a dailybasis, we wouldn't be where we
are now.
Guido (07:29):
And, the hiring nondigital people, did did that
come about, with, the theshortage of of people to to
hire, or is this was it alreadythere from the beginning?
Matt (07:39):
A mixture. So when I first started the agency, you know, my
my background is is as aconsultant. So I did all of the
all of the consulting myself asas most of us do. And what I
decided was that, at a certainpoint, the right thing to do was
bring in, bring in someone at atrainee level rather than,
(08:02):
rather than an experience level.One of the, one of the team
members at the time, his brotherwas looking for for a change.
He he was a police officer atthe time, in London. Had just
had done that for for a good fewyears, decided, you know, that
that was done for him, and hewas looking for something new.
(08:24):
And, yeah, my my team memberasked me, would I speak to him?
And I said, yeah. Sure.
I don't have any I don't haveany other, like, you know, sort
of standout options at themoment. So, yeah, sure. I'll
I'll speak to him. We we met afew times. It was clear that he
was very bright, driven, andreally wanted to to make a new
(08:46):
career, for himself.
Guido (08:47):
So how how did you get him up to speed to to the work
that you're doing?
Matt (08:52):
A mixture of a lot of time, a lot of my time, and and
getting him involved in in livethings as as soon as we could.
To the my belief has always beenthe best way to learn is to do.
You need to have a base level ofunderstanding, sure, to know
what you're doing. But if youhave the oversight from from
someone who has done this workday in, day out for for years,
(09:15):
you can get bright, drivenpeople to a good standard very
quickly. And because they're inan because they're in an agency,
in a specialist agency, thatonly does one thing.
You're not asking them to becomea master of, you know, of of all
different disciplines. You arefocusing them on one particular
thing. And we we did that forthe first time, that'll be
(09:36):
almost 4 years ago now. And atthat point, it seemed where he's
so he he's since moved on, frommy agency. He now works, he now
works at conversion.com, so oneof the largest CRO agencies, in
the UK.
And that has shown us that wecan develop people with no with
(09:58):
no meaningful background in ourwork into into really, really
strong practitioners. I I I wasit was it was, a sad moment in
some ways to see him leave, thathappened earlier this year. But,
also, I'm immensely proud ofwhat we've helped him to achieve
and and, and what he's then beenable to do, since he left us.
Guido (10:21):
Yeah. And I can imagine that, when you when you talk to
a lot of people and and, hirepeople, you you rather yeah. You
you figure out start figuringout, what kind of, traits people
need to have for this this joband what what things are that
that are, not working for thisjob. So, any any ideas around
(10:44):
that?
Matt (10:45):
Yeah. I think the attitude matters, a huge amount. You can
teach, skills. You can you canprovide experience in in doing
the work, but you cannot makesomebody good to work with. That
that isn't that isn't ateachable that isn't a teachable
trait.
You cannot make someonediligent. You cannot make
(11:08):
someone care about the the thelittle details, in things. And
those when we, when we put out,sort of job roles, now, we when
we're getting to the sectionabout, you know, what what you
will need, we lead we lead withthose things. We don't lead with
what your experience is in termsof, you know, have you used this
(11:29):
tool or have you used this tool?You know, it is we care about
the person and the characterthat you are more than those
things.
If you've got gaps in thoseskills, that's fine. We we we've
got those skills already. We canwe can pass that on, but we
cannot we cannot make you wecannot make you diligent. We
cannot make you the sort ofperson who will do the right
(11:50):
thing when no one is watching.And those settings take
Guido (11:54):
too much time.
Matt (11:55):
I think I think a lot of it's inherent Yeah. In people.
It is it's either who you are oror it isn't. Yeah. You know,
that's a self discipline thing.
So, yeah, we we focus a lot moreon on who somebody is, knowing
because we've done it repeatedlythat we can we can teach you all
the skills that you don'tcurrently have.
Guido (12:17):
Yeah. Yeah. And if you're interested in the in the field,
then, of course, that thatdefinitely helps with your
attitude towards it. Right? Imean, if you're working in a job
that you don't like or notinterested in, then
Matt (12:27):
Yeah. We we've had people who who I would describe as as
being underutilized in the rolesthat they're that they're
currently doing. You know,frankly, roles that aren't going
anywhere for them, for variousreasons, and that gives them I
think that gives them a a kindof steel that other people don't
necessarily have. You know,those those who are switching
(12:48):
careers you know, I've neverdone it. You know, I've never
done that career switch in inthe way that some of my team
members have.
That takes a lot of bravery anda lot of self belief to say, you
know what? This section whereI've got, you know, 5, 6 years
experience in that, I'm gonnaput that to one side, and I'm
gonna start again with somethingcompletely new. And that that
(13:11):
takes a lot of bravery, and ittells you a lot about, about a
person's attitude to work and totheir career.
Guido (13:17):
Well and specifically for us, that that's, shows that
they're open to experimentation.Right?
Matt (13:22):
Yeah. Exactly. It shows that they they are willing to
look beyond what a natural path,for them might be, and to see
where where somewhere else mighttake them.
Guido (13:33):
Yeah. Yeah. Really cool that you're, you're doing this.
And, I guess a lot of people canor a lot of agencies can learn
there that, something from thisapproach and then opening it up.
And then, yeah, maybe notleading with, Yeah.
You're you're skilled in GoogleAnalytics or, or the tools that
we use, but, rather, rather theattitude towards
(13:55):
experimentation.
Matt (13:56):
Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.
Guido (13:57):
Can you tell us a bit about, the projects that, that
you're doing? What what are thenew gems that you're working on?
Matt (14:03):
Yeah. A little bit. Yeah. I guess, recently, helping
NANDOS launch their, theirlatest version of their ordering
process, has been a has been abig one. We helped them with
their first ever online orderingprocess, which would have been 3
years, 3 years ago now.
(14:24):
They've since had variousiterations of that.
Guido (14:27):
And then, like, for those not for that meal, that that's
like a fast food chicken piripiri style?
Matt (14:32):
Correct. Yeah. Yeah. I forget. They are they're
enormous, an enormous householdname here, in the UK.
I'm not sure what their whattheir global reach is, in other
in other places.
Guido (14:43):
I haven't seen them in the Netherlands yet. But yeah.
Matt (14:46):
I know I I know they're not particularly, well known in
the US. But, yes, in they're onmany, many high streets in the
in the UK. We've also been ableto to expand the number of
GoDaddy brands that we workacross as well. They they've
been a client of ours since,pretty much since day 1, which
(15:08):
we were very fortunate to pickto pick up work with those guys,
but we we've now got brands thatwe work on with them across US,
Germany, and the UK as well. AndI guess as an organization,
their belief in CRO andexperimentation is without
(15:31):
doubt.
There's no question for themthat it is the right thing to do
regardless of whether you'reworking on some of the the
bigger brands or some of thesmaller ones that they own
because they own 100 across theacross the world. So it's good
to see especially some of thosesome of those smaller brands for
whom, for whom we may be theirtheir first experience of of
(15:55):
running a program. I think that,you know, we we've had a we've
had a few clients over the lastfew months for whom we are, we
are the first agency they'veever worked with. We are
responsible for the first tests,that they've ever run. And I
think for for me, that that'sprobably the most exciting part.
(16:16):
It's not it's not workingnecessarily with the, you know,
the big household names. It'sit's nice in a way. You know?
It's nice to be able to tellpeople you work with, you work
with big brands. But seeingsomeone go from doing very
little or even nothing into the,call it, the excitement that
they get from seeing new thingscoming, you know, every every
(16:39):
few weeks is I think that thatmeans a lot to me, to to see
those.
So, yeah, getting peoplestarted, is, is is thoroughly
rewarding.
Guido (16:50):
Yeah. I mean, to go from 0 to anything is is, is already
a big step, for most. Right? Andand do you then often are are
you working with with purse withpeople in in those companies
that already have, like, a jobtitle, something's like 0, or is
it is it more broader than that?
Matt (17:10):
Yeah. Often not. So some some of the businesses, you
might be working with the youknow, with one of the directors
of the company. You know, therethere are some businesses that
we work with who are you know,whose revenues are 5,
10,000,000. But their their coreteam, you know, sort of as a as
an office team might only be 10people.
(17:32):
Yeah. You know, so they're a lotof their a lot of their focus is
obviously in the the manufactureof their products and the
fulfillment of their products,and that's where the the bulk of
their team may sit. But, yeah,some sometimes we've, we've
worked, as I said, withdirectors. Sometimes you're
working with marketeers. We'veeven had, one one client, who
(17:53):
changed the job focus of of oneof their team, not long after
starting work with us becausethey realized that this was an
area that they needed internallyto dedicate more, more resource
to as well.
So, yeah, I think work workingwith businesses, bigger ones who
have been running CRO orexperimentation programs for a
(18:14):
for a long period is there it'sa different experience to
working with those who areeffectively building from from
the, from the ground up.
Guido (18:23):
Yeah. I think that's an interesting, role that you're
describing. So that that's,interesting for, companies that
are hiring a CRO agency. So whatkind of resources do they need
to have? What kind of, is isthat person then, like, the the
main communication channelbetween you and and what the
company is doing, or what'stheir role?
Matt (18:43):
Yeah. It's, I think it's it's it's a multifaceted one.
So, yes, they are they areimportant as our conduit to
understand more broadly what'sgoing on, in the in the
business. And if you're if youare dealing day to day with with
a director, that has itsbenefits, because that that
person generally knows virtuallyeverything, that that's going
(19:05):
on, in there. Also, they
Guido (19:06):
have the can sign things?
Matt (19:09):
Yes. They have the authority. So if if you say, we
wanna do this, and they don'tsay, oh, well, I'll take that
away, and we'll have a committeemeeting in 2 weeks, and we'll
let you know. They just go,yeah. I like that.
And off you go. You can, youknow, you can you can move
ahead. I think, also, havingaccess to those those people at
the higher levels, they can seedaily the the difference that
(19:31):
this makes, to the to thebusiness, not just, not just in
terms of, you know, the thechanges they may see going
through the site. But becausethey've got more of a finger on
the pulse of of the overallbusiness health, they really
understand the direct impactthat the changes that we're
testing make. So, yeah, it is abig help.
(19:55):
Can we pause for a sec? Becausesomeone is knocking on my door.
Guido (19:58):
Oh, yeah. Sure. Go ahead. We'll have a short break here.
Matt (20:30):
The joys of working from home, mate.
Guido (20:34):
Did you just tell them to to stop knocking? Or
Matt (20:36):
Yeah. It was just a delivery. But sometimes they
just knock and leave it. Othertimes, they knock. And if you
don't answer, they keepknocking.
You're like, I'll just go andanswer the door.
Guido (20:47):
You hear that sometimes that that just don't even bother
to knock. They just, I leave heras a package in front of the
door door or I I also have thissometimes that, we we have one
car, which actually my mygirlfriend's car. I I usually
use trains or whatever and youuse, I work from home for
mostly, most of the time. Sosometimes when she takes the
(21:08):
car, then the delivery guy justsay, oh, the the car is gone.
There's probably no one home.
And then it just doesn't deliverand then just drops it at the
post office. Like
Matt (21:18):
They they
Guido (21:18):
just scared all day.
Matt (21:19):
They throw they throw things over our fence. Or over
our back gate is the otherthing. If it's like they I think
they must all, like, squeeze andgo, oh, it's clothes or
whatever, and then just throwit.
Guido (21:30):
Yeah. Yeah.
Matt (21:33):
And then and then they leave you a card that says, oh,
we've left it in a safe place.Like, no. You haven't left it
anyway. You've You've thrown itover a fence.
Guido (21:41):
So helpful of them. So Yes. Very. So helpful. K.
Let's, let's continue. Hey. Sometime ago, you, you posted on
LinkedIn, to change things up.You you wanted to start posting
more about, Siro. So first, Iwant to know what what what
triggered this, and, how has itbeen going, so far?
Matt (22:00):
Yeah. So what triggered it is is probably a mixture of
things. Firstly, so we we hiredan in house marketeer, about 6
months before that point who'dbeen banging on at me about,
Matt, you have to you have tostart doing something. Yeah.
Guido (22:18):
Use your network, Matt.
Matt (22:19):
Yeah. Pre pretty much. Yeah. I think also it was I've
gotten to the point where I'dstarted to understand, I'd
started to understand what Ibelieve to be important and and
sort of starting to form somerules, I guess, for myself,
about how I how I wanted totalk, and the message that that
(22:42):
I wanted to to get across. And Ithink, you know, similar to to
what we discussed earlier about,you know, the the teaching
element, where that where thatstarted and and where it and and
where it is now, you know, ittook it took time.
It took experience to understandreally what what that meant to
to me and and to us as abusiness. And I think it was the
(23:04):
same thing with, you know, with,with talking about CRO publicly
and and more frequently is thatit's taken me time to really
understand what it is that Iconsider to be important.
Guido (23:17):
And, how's that been going so far? What have you
posted about?
Matt (23:21):
Quite quite a lot
Guido (23:22):
of stuff. I started in the debates.
Matt (23:24):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I started with with setting out
the rules for myself. So I wrotethem down, and then and then I
posted those. So, I had 3 dosand and 3 don'ts.
So my 3 dos were, provokedebate, hence, what I have on
occasion, Support allpractitioners regardless of
(23:47):
level and champion doingsomething over nothing. You
know, as we as we talked aboutearlier on that front, you have
to start somewhere. You know,and that means choosing to do
something rather than donothing. It won't be perfect. It
may not even be good, to beginwith, but you you get nowhere if
you do nothing.
Guido (24:07):
So so how do you go about with, the first one, like,
provoke debate? It sounds soundslike a bit malicious. Like, it
doesn't really matter, if it'sgood or not or if it's true or
not, but at least it should
Matt (24:18):
Yeah. But it it marries it marries with the first of my
don'ts, which is don't sit onthe fence. You know, if you have
an opinion, voice it. You know?It it doesn't mean that you have
to be rude to people, and itdoesn't mean that you can't, you
can't, appreciate somebodyelse's perspective.
But I think in in the UK in inparticular, we we tend to shy
(24:43):
away from confrontation, and wewe tend to see confrontation as
a negative word. Whereas, so,one of my team is is French. And
she has been telling me foryears we've known each other a
long time. She has been tellingme for years that in France,
confrontation is not seen as anegative. It's seen as a
positive.
You know, you should you shouldengage in, in differences of
(25:06):
opinion. You know, if somebodysays something that you don't
believe to be true, you don'tjust nod. You know? You you say,
oh, well, you know, actually, mymy opinion is this, or I believe
this. And I think that, thatdebate is is important.
You know? We're we're never allgonna see eye to eye on
everything. We're never allgonna believe that the right way
(25:27):
to do things, whatever that evenis, the right way is is the
same. And it won't be the same,for everyone. It's all clouded
and and and shaped by our own,by our own experiences.
But talking about those andalmost celebrating those in a
way is is important.
Guido (25:44):
And how do you go, about doing this and and then
introducing or helping, newpeople. I think you also
mentioned that it might be a bitscary for newcomers to to Ciro,
to see people talking about Ciroin general. And then it feels
okay. Yeah. That it's that'sit's a high bar before I can can
(26:06):
join the Ciro club.
Matt (26:07):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It it is. And I I think a lot of that
stems from there's been a lot ofdiscourse in our in our industry
over recent years thateveryone's doing everything
wrong.
And, yeah, some some of that maybe correct.
Guido (26:25):
That's yeah. Yes.
Matt (26:26):
And and and maybe it's it's true. And but that, to me,
isn't really the point. Youknow, if you want to if you want
to bring people on on a journeywith you, you don't tell them
they're wrong all the time. Youknow, you recognize that what
they're doing right now isthey're doing the best that they
(26:47):
can. Yes.
Okay. They may be missingcertain information. But, you
know, if you as I mentionedearlier around bringing, you
know, new people into our team,like, I've I've seen some things
that they've done and gone, oh,no. Probably don't wanna do
that. But you don't you don'tjust shout you're doing it wrong
at them out the door.
You know? You sit down with themand go, okay. How did you get to
that point? Okay. Well, you gotto that.
(27:08):
Yep. 3 years ago, I did the samething. You know? Until somebody
else pointed out to me that thisyou know? So you you recognize
your own flaws.
I guess, you you you bear thoseflaws to people. And then if you
tell them, okay. Well, that thatthing, you know, you need to do
that in this way, Theyunderstand that that isn't just
(27:31):
you saying this is you know, Iknow more than you. I was where
you were, you know, 3 years ago,5 years ago, whatever it is,
because each and every one of ushas you know, if if you look
back at some of the, some of thethings you did 5 years ago,
would you do them the same waynow? I highly doubt it.
I certainly wouldn't. Yeah. AndI don't think there is one of
(27:53):
us, in in in our industry whowouldn't say that. And in
another 5 years, we will do thesame thing. We will look back at
what we're doing today andprobably think, yeah, I wouldn't
have wouldn't do that that waynow.
Guido (28:06):
There there are a lot of things I did yesterday that I
already did. So
Matt (28:09):
It a common a common, my mother made to me, a few years
ago. So I I was telling her itwas not long after my 30th
birthday, and I was telling herabout some of the decisions I'd
made in my early twenties andsaid, oh, just I can't believe
that, you know, that that that Ithought that that was a good
idea. And she, she would havebeen in her fifties at the time,
(28:30):
and she said to me, oh, don'tworry. There are things I look
back on that I did in myforties, and I still feel the
same way. So in some senses, itwas it was a relief to know that
it never gets any it neverchanges.
In other ways, it's a littledisappointing knowing that you
will always look back, on thingsand and think I would do it
differently. But yeah. So Ithink that the the engagement of
(28:52):
those who are newer into, newerinto the industry, you don't get
that engagement, with people.You don't bring them along a
journey by telling them they'rewrong all the time. Yeah.
You you do it by recognizingthat you too, were there and
that we're all on a we're all onthe same we're all on the same
path. It's just about at whatpoint in time did you start on
(29:12):
it.
Guido (29:13):
Yeah. Yeah. And and I don't think that's anything
specific to CRO. Right? I mean,that that it's all about getting
new people in and trying to keepthem motivated, throughout their
journey.
Matt (29:23):
Yeah. Because they they they are the the future of the
industry sits with sits withpeople who are newer in. You
know? We will we will, at somepoint, you know, pack this in
and retire and you know? Butother people need to need to be
there to, you know, to carry iton.
You know, we all we all agreethat it is an essential part of,
(29:45):
of of businesses growing,developing, prospering, to have
this, to have thisexperimentation mindset. I just
it it it pained me. I actuallyhad a after I posted that
initially, I got a few messagesfrom people, people I'd I'd
never met before, who told methat they felt that they are
(30:12):
relatively new to the industryand that everything that they
were reading was telling themthat they would never be good
enough. And that that hurt alittle bit because, to some
extent, we all end up beingtarred with the same brush.
Guido (30:28):
Yeah. I mean, if you if you just, only look at the the c
xl.com, list of courses you canfollow for a Siro specialist. I
mean, that's that's that's quitethe list. Right? I mean and I I
love them.
But if if you're if that's thestart of your journey, you see
that list. I can imagine that'sthat's not necessarily
Matt (30:50):
more than being
Guido (30:51):
It's pretty intimidating. List of of stuff you need to
know.
Matt (30:53):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's pretty it's pretty
intimidating. And and it and itends up going back to to one of
my other dos, which is championsomething over nothing.
If you think that you're goingto before you do absolutely
anything, you're gonna do all ofthose courses and learn all of
that stuff and then start,you'll probably never start. You
(31:13):
know? Learning by doing and isis, in my opinion, the most
effective, the most effectiveform of learning. And in the
end, one of the the core tenantsof what we do is about test and
learn. You know, that shouldapply to us as individuals as
much as it, as much as it doesto the work that we do.
(31:34):
The assumption is you're gonnabe wrong more often than you're
gonna be right, and that's okay.And that that that idea needs to
needs to move over into people'sdevelopment as much as it does
in the the day to day practiceof our
Guido (31:47):
work. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things, that you also,
mentioned that, I think relatedis that, 0 or experimentation,
does not have to be allencompassing, to be valuable.
Right?
The those elements alreadycontribute to the whole.
Matt (32:03):
Yeah. I think this this was one of the debates I sparked
at one stage. And I I used the Iused the comparison with
communism, which I'm I'm notsure. Maybe I shouldn't have
used it. But
Guido (32:13):
Oh, if you wanna stir some debate, then that's a good
start.
Matt (32:16):
Well, I I do have a history degree as well, you
know, perfectly relevant to myprofession, obviously. But,
yeah, it was basically in, therethere were 2 different strands
of of communism at one point,one where they believed that you
could skip stages in Marx andEngels' idea of the progression
of society, and a and a and acontrary view that said you
(32:38):
could not. If you did, the wholething would break. Obviously,
what happens in history is theydo try and skip stages, and the
whole thing falls apart. Mybelief is that, from a CRO
perspective at least, is thattrying to skip stages isn't
isn't gonna be effective.
People have to have gone througheach sort of phase of that
(33:01):
maturity to understand it inorder to know where the next
stage is and how, how they'regonna be able to operate that
that effectively. So trying tomove people from doing nothing
to or or a business even fromdoing nothing to saying everyone
in this company has anexperimentation mindset, in my
(33:22):
view, is it's it's never gonnahappen. It's never gonna happen
that quickly. You know? Theythey can't just skip the, you
know, they can't skip the callit the dabbling stages, that
come in between.
Guido (33:36):
And, we're almost out of time, unfortunately. I really
really loving this, this talk.And, definitely with, regards to
the LinkedIn post, definitelykeep keep doing that. Keep
stirring that, debate. Hey.
And, maybe for future, podcast,who do you think we should,
interview for that?
Matt (33:56):
So I mentioned, I mentioned someone earlier that
that we hired who went frombeing a police officer to, to a
CRO. His name is Sam Irvine.He's a consultant at
conversion.com. Mhmm. For me,his story is a brilliant one,
of, like I said, of of takingrisk, of of testing something
(34:17):
new.
And as I said, he has he hasgone from he has gone from a
public servant, to to someonewho has become a a really, a
really impressive practitioner.And I think it it it just it's
it's a perfect illustration.
Guido (34:33):
Yeah. Let let's see if he's, he's as positive, of you
as he as you are.
Matt (34:39):
I only spoke to him last night just to see how things
were getting on. So, yeah, I Ihope so. I hope so. But, yeah,
well worth talking to. A a very,a very different story, I guess,
to to most, that people wouldhave heard.
Guido (34:52):
Nice. Yeah. And I'll, Yeah. If you can get us
introduced, then, I would love,hearing, his story. Matt, thank
you so much for, for taking thetime out of your busy schedule,
to, to talk to us, and I hope totalk to you soon.
And I hope to see a lot of,LinkedIn discussions.
Matt (35:08):
Perhaps so. Good. Thanks a lot.
Guido (35:09):
Thanks. Bye bye.
Matt, welcome to the Siroc Faye podcast. And, of
course, we'd first like to knowa bit more about, you and your
background and why on earth yougot started at Siro.
Matt (00:09):
Yeah. So my name is Matt Scaysbrook. I'm director of
optimization at We Teach CRO. Iguess, like many people, I kind
of fell into, fell into CRO. Somy first, my first role, the
company that I joined had justinstalled Google Analytics on
their website, and no one in theteam knew how to use it, because
(00:32):
because I was the new guy.
I was I was the burden oneveryone, you know, because I
knew nothing. So when werealized nobody knew it, I put
my hand up and said, okay. Well,let let me learn, so that I had
something that I could actuallybe useful with, rather than
just, you know, sort of suckingthe life out of everyone else
constantly asking questions. So,yeah, it it started it started
(00:53):
there. But I think for me, youknow, it sits CRO sits so
neatly, on the sort of theintersection between creative,
analytical, and and technical.
So I've never I've never feltpigeonholed in that, in that
way. I think also as a person, II judge the value of a lot of
(01:14):
things based on the the size ofthe opportunity rather than
exactly on its value right now.I think just that that natural
mindset makes, makes CRO aperfect, a perfect industry for
me to be in.
Guido (01:28):
Yeah. And, Keito, tell us a bit about more about, the
company you founded. To me, itseems at least fully based on
the name. It's it's quite aunique approach, already
because, many agencies will willsay, okay. Give us your, access
to to your your clients' data,and, we'll help you improve your
your conversion rates.
But, we teach hero implies thatyou don't do that, approach, but
(01:54):
I'd rather, teach the clientshow to do. So what is that?
Matt (01:57):
I think there's a couple of there's a couple of parts to
it. So when when I first startedthe business, 5 years ago, there
was the the original sort ofproposition, was that we would,
over time, teach, teach ourclients to take over the various
bits of work that that we weredoing. And that's that's sort of
(02:19):
how we how we settled on thename. And what what we found was
that, that that propositionopened a lot of doors for us. We
could talk to we could talk toclients that we may not
otherwise have have got a chanceto speak to, given our our size.
And it was it was it was metreally, really positively. Like,
(02:39):
yeah. This is a great idea. Whenit then got down to to signing
contracts, what you found wasthat, unfortunately, most of
the, most of the stakeholderswho would sign those contracts,
they just wanted someone to doit for them. They frankly didn't
want to invest that much inupskilling their teams
Guido (02:59):
Yeah.
Matt (03:01):
Which is a tad sad. But I don't think that's I don't think
it's changed all that much, overthe last over the last 5 years.
So, yeah, initially, it was, itit was to have a a different
approach. But what we found overover time as we've worked
through is that the more thatyou the more that you share
(03:21):
about what you know, it hasmultiple benefits. So firstly,
any anyone who works, agencyside in any in any kind of role
knows that the the more that aclient knows about your subject,
the easier it is to worktogether and the better work
that you do.
You know, if there are 5 or 6,assumptions or or, deductions
(03:43):
that you've made along a pathbefore you you get to the
discussion that you're currentlyon, The fewer of those that you
have to explain in detail, theeasier it is, and the faster you
you get to the, you get to theoutputs. So for us, explaining
to our clients how we how wereach certain, how we reach
certain conclusions is hugelyimportant. It helps us all be
(04:06):
more efficient. That means thatthe service that the client
receives is is better. And, youknow, from a a business side as
an agency, that that keeps ourour retention rates up.
You know, we have happy clientswho know more today than they
knew, than they knew yesterday.I think the other side of it,
the more that you the more thatyou give away about how to how
(04:28):
to execute programs at scale,the more it solidifies why
you're necessary. So we we'veseen this, we've seen this
recently with, with a largeclient of ours where, you know,
another another area of their,of their team, has started
running tests, as well, most ofthem server side, rather than
(04:51):
rather than client side. And,initially, they did not believe
that our input, you know, as aas a third party was necessary.
Our main contact there, whowe've worked with side by side
for, well, for over 3 years now,he was insistent that we had
oversight of what was beingdone.
And as those first sort of fewtests started to get rolled out,
(05:14):
they became to realize why wewere there. So it seems like,
okay. Well, test entry isn'tbeing logged properly. So, you
know, the data that you'repassing into GA, that's starting
at the wrong point. So you'renot seeing a full picture.
You're only seeing people whocomplete what you've changed,
not people who see what you'vechanged. And there was a there
was a string of other of otherelements to it. So I think the
(05:37):
the, the view there is that bygiving away and sharing what you
know, it doesn't it doesn'tdevalue, it doesn't devalue the
agency. It only increases thevalue of the agency. The more
the client knows, the more theysee the work that goes into into
having a program running atscale.
Guido (05:57):
Yeah. And, but then how much time roughly would say you
you still be you're still ableto spend on teaching those
people? I
Matt (06:07):
don't I don't see it as separate to what we do on a day
to day basis. It is what we do
Guido (06:11):
You're learning on a job. On a
Matt (06:13):
day to day basis. Yeah. And that that applies both for,
both for our clients, and forand for our team members. We
have one one of our, one of ourhires earlier this year, he
described our hiring strategyas, as gathering the waifs and
strays. We don't we've hiredpeople with very abnormal
(06:37):
backgrounds, you know, peoplewho haven't come from a CRO
background or even an analyticsbackground or even a digital
background, for for that matter.
And we can do that because wehave, you know, we have a core
group of people who, who knowtheir work inside out, And we
have the I guess I I'vedescribed it as we are big
(07:00):
enough to support them, and toget to get intelligent bright
people to understand our work,but, but we're also, small
enough that their work actuallymatters, on a day to day basis.
So, yeah, I think the theteaching part, as I said, it
started it started as aproposition that frankly never
worked, but it's now become thecore of what we do. And if we if
(07:24):
we didn't do that on a dailybasis, we wouldn't be where we
are now.
Guido (07:29):
And, the hiring nondigital people, did did that
come about, with, the theshortage of of people to to
hire, or is this was it alreadythere from the beginning?
Matt (07:39):
A mixture. So when I first started the agency, you know, my
my background is is as aconsultant. So I did all of the
all of the consulting myself asas most of us do. And what I
decided was that, at a certainpoint, the right thing to do was
bring in, bring in someone at atrainee level rather than,
(08:02):
rather than an experience level.One of the, one of the team
members at the time, his brotherwas looking for for a change.
He he was a police officer atthe time, in London. Had just
had done that for for a good fewyears, decided, you know, that
that was done for him, and hewas looking for something new.
(08:24):
And, yeah, my my team memberasked me, would I speak to him?
And I said, yeah. Sure.
I don't have any I don't haveany other, like, you know, sort
of standout options at themoment. So, yeah, sure. I'll
I'll speak to him. We we met afew times. It was clear that he
was very bright, driven, andreally wanted to to make a new
(08:46):
career, for himself.
Guido (08:47):
So how how did you get him up to speed to to the work
that you're doing?
Matt (08:52):
A mixture of a lot of time, a lot of my time, and and
getting him involved in in livethings as as soon as we could.
To the my belief has always beenthe best way to learn is to do.
You need to have a base level ofunderstanding, sure, to know
what you're doing. But if youhave the oversight from from
someone who has done this workday in, day out for for years,
(09:15):
you can get bright, drivenpeople to a good standard very
quickly. And because they're inan because they're in an agency,
in a specialist agency, thatonly does one thing.
You're not asking them to becomea master of, you know, of of all
different disciplines. You arefocusing them on one particular
thing. And we we did that forthe first time, that'll be
(09:36):
almost 4 years ago now. And atthat point, it seemed where he's
so he he's since moved on, frommy agency. He now works, he now
works at conversion.com, so oneof the largest CRO agencies, in
the UK.
And that has shown us that wecan develop people with no with
(09:58):
no meaningful background in ourwork into into really, really
strong practitioners. I I I wasit was it was, a sad moment in
some ways to see him leave, thathappened earlier this year. But,
also, I'm immensely proud ofwhat we've helped him to achieve
and and, and what he's then beenable to do, since he left us.
Guido (10:21):
Yeah. And I can imagine that, when you when you talk to
a lot of people and and, hirepeople, you you rather yeah. You
you figure out start figuringout, what kind of, traits people
need to have for this this joband what what things are that
that are, not working for thisjob. So, any any ideas around
(10:44):
that?
Matt (10:45):
Yeah. I think the attitude matters, a huge amount. You can
teach, skills. You can you canprovide experience in in doing
the work, but you cannot makesomebody good to work with. That
that isn't that isn't ateachable that isn't a teachable
trait.
You cannot make someonediligent. You cannot make
(11:08):
someone care about the the thelittle details, in things. And
those when we, when we put out,sort of job roles, now, we when
we're getting to the sectionabout, you know, what what you
will need, we lead we lead withthose things. We don't lead with
what your experience is in termsof, you know, have you used this
(11:29):
tool or have you used this tool?You know, it is we care about
the person and the characterthat you are more than those
things.
If you've got gaps in thoseskills, that's fine. We we we've
got those skills already. We canwe can pass that on, but we
cannot we cannot make you wecannot make you diligent. We
cannot make you the sort ofperson who will do the right
(11:50):
thing when no one is watching.And those settings take
Guido (11:54):
too much time.
Matt (11:55):
I think I think a lot of it's inherent Yeah. In people.
It is it's either who you are oror it isn't. Yeah. You know,
that's a self discipline thing.
So, yeah, we we focus a lot moreon on who somebody is, knowing
because we've done it repeatedlythat we can we can teach you all
the skills that you don'tcurrently have.
Guido (12:17):
Yeah. Yeah. And if you're interested in the in the field,
then, of course, that thatdefinitely helps with your
attitude towards it. Right? Imean, if you're working in a job
that you don't like or notinterested in, then
Matt (12:27):
Yeah. We we've had people who who I would describe as as
being underutilized in the rolesthat they're that they're
currently doing. You know,frankly, roles that aren't going
anywhere for them, for variousreasons, and that gives them I
think that gives them a a kindof steel that other people don't
necessarily have. You know,those those who are switching
(12:48):
careers you know, I've neverdone it. You know, I've never
done that career switch in inthe way that some of my team
members have.
That takes a lot of bravery anda lot of self belief to say, you
know what? This section whereI've got, you know, 5, 6 years
experience in that, I'm gonnaput that to one side, and I'm
gonna start again with somethingcompletely new. And that that
(13:11):
takes a lot of bravery, and ittells you a lot about, about a
person's attitude to work and totheir career.
Guido (13:17):
Well and specifically for us, that that's, shows that
they're open to experimentation.Right?
Matt (13:22):
Yeah. Exactly. It shows that they they are willing to
look beyond what a natural path,for them might be, and to see
where where somewhere else mighttake them.
Guido (13:33):
Yeah. Yeah. Really cool that you're, you're doing this.
And, I guess a lot of people canor a lot of agencies can learn
there that, something from thisapproach and then opening it up.
And then, yeah, maybe notleading with, Yeah.
You're you're skilled in GoogleAnalytics or, or the tools that
we use, but, rather, rather theattitude towards
(13:55):
experimentation.
Matt (13:56):
Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.
Guido (13:57):
Can you tell us a bit about, the projects that, that
you're doing? What what are thenew gems that you're working on?
Matt (14:03):
Yeah. A little bit. Yeah. I guess, recently, helping
NANDOS launch their, theirlatest version of their ordering
process, has been a has been abig one. We helped them with
their first ever online orderingprocess, which would have been 3
years, 3 years ago now.
(14:24):
They've since had variousiterations of that.
Guido (14:27):
And then, like, for those not for that meal, that that's
like a fast food chicken piripiri style?
Matt (14:32):
Correct. Yeah. Yeah. I forget. They are they're
enormous, an enormous householdname here, in the UK.
I'm not sure what their whattheir global reach is, in other
in other places.
Guido (14:43):
I haven't seen them in the Netherlands yet. But yeah.
Matt (14:46):
I know I I know they're not particularly, well known in
the US. But, yes, in they're onmany, many high streets in the
in the UK. We've also been ableto to expand the number of
GoDaddy brands that we workacross as well. They they've
been a client of ours since,pretty much since day 1, which
(15:08):
we were very fortunate to pickto pick up work with those guys,
but we we've now got brands thatwe work on with them across US,
Germany, and the UK as well. AndI guess as an organization,
their belief in CRO andexperimentation is without
(15:31):
doubt.
There's no question for themthat it is the right thing to do
regardless of whether you'reworking on some of the the
bigger brands or some of thesmaller ones that they own
because they own 100 across theacross the world. So it's good
to see especially some of thosesome of those smaller brands for
whom, for whom we may be theirtheir first experience of of
(15:55):
running a program. I think that,you know, we we've had a we've
had a few clients over the lastfew months for whom we are, we
are the first agency they'veever worked with. We are
responsible for the first tests,that they've ever run. And I
think for for me, that that'sprobably the most exciting part.
(16:16):
It's not it's not workingnecessarily with the, you know,
the big household names. It'sit's nice in a way. You know?
It's nice to be able to tellpeople you work with, you work
with big brands. But seeingsomeone go from doing very
little or even nothing into the,call it, the excitement that
they get from seeing new thingscoming, you know, every every
(16:39):
few weeks is I think that thatmeans a lot to me, to to see
those.
So, yeah, getting peoplestarted, is, is is thoroughly
rewarding.
Guido (16:50):
Yeah. I mean, to go from 0 to anything is is, is already
a big step, for most. Right? Andand do you then often are are
you working with with purse withpeople in in those companies
that already have, like, a jobtitle, something's like 0, or is
it is it more broader than that?
Matt (17:10):
Yeah. Often not. So some some of the businesses, you
might be working with the youknow, with one of the directors
of the company. You know, therethere are some businesses that
we work with who are you know,whose revenues are 5,
10,000,000. But their their coreteam, you know, sort of as a as
an office team might only be 10people.
(17:32):
Yeah. You know, so they're a lotof their a lot of their focus is
obviously in the the manufactureof their products and the
fulfillment of their products,and that's where the the bulk of
their team may sit. But, yeah,some sometimes we've, we've
worked, as I said, withdirectors. Sometimes you're
working with marketeers. We'veeven had, one one client, who
(17:53):
changed the job focus of of oneof their team, not long after
starting work with us becausethey realized that this was an
area that they needed internallyto dedicate more, more resource
to as well.
So, yeah, I think work workingwith businesses, bigger ones who
have been running CRO orexperimentation programs for a
(18:14):
for a long period is there it'sa different experience to
working with those who areeffectively building from from
the, from the ground up.
Guido (18:23):
Yeah. I think that's an interesting, role that you're
describing. So that that's,interesting for, companies that
are hiring a CRO agency. So whatkind of resources do they need
to have? What kind of, is isthat person then, like, the the
main communication channelbetween you and and what the
company is doing, or what'stheir role?
Matt (18:43):
Yeah. It's, I think it's it's it's a multifaceted one.
So, yes, they are they areimportant as our conduit to
understand more broadly what'sgoing on, in the in the
business. And if you're if youare dealing day to day with with
a director, that has itsbenefits, because that that
person generally knows virtuallyeverything, that that's going
(19:05):
on, in there. Also, they
Guido (19:06):
have the can sign things?
Matt (19:09):
Yes. They have the authority. So if if you say, we
wanna do this, and they don'tsay, oh, well, I'll take that
away, and we'll have a committeemeeting in 2 weeks, and we'll
let you know. They just go,yeah. I like that.
And off you go. You can, youknow, you can you can move
ahead. I think, also, havingaccess to those those people at
the higher levels, they can seedaily the the difference that
(19:31):
this makes, to the to thebusiness, not just, not just in
terms of, you know, the thechanges they may see going
through the site. But becausethey've got more of a finger on
the pulse of of the overallbusiness health, they really
understand the direct impactthat the changes that we're
testing make. So, yeah, it is abig help.
(19:55):
Can we pause for a sec? Becausesomeone is knocking on my door.
Guido (19:58):
Oh, yeah. Sure. Go ahead. We'll have a short break here.
Matt (20:30):
The joys of working from home, mate.
Guido (20:34):
Did you just tell them to to stop knocking? Or
Matt (20:36):
Yeah. It was just a delivery. But sometimes they
just knock and leave it. Othertimes, they knock. And if you
don't answer, they keepknocking.
You're like, I'll just go andanswer the door.
Guido (20:47):
You hear that sometimes that that just don't even bother
to knock. They just, I leave heras a package in front of the
door door or I I also have thissometimes that, we we have one
car, which actually my mygirlfriend's car. I I usually
use trains or whatever and youuse, I work from home for
mostly, most of the time. Sosometimes when she takes the
(21:08):
car, then the delivery guy justsay, oh, the the car is gone.
There's probably no one home.
And then it just doesn't deliverand then just drops it at the
post office. Like
Matt (21:18):
They they
Guido (21:18):
just scared all day.
Matt (21:19):
They throw they throw things over our fence. Or over
our back gate is the otherthing. If it's like they I think
they must all, like, squeeze andgo, oh, it's clothes or
whatever, and then just throwit.
Guido (21:30):
Yeah. Yeah.
Matt (21:33):
And then and then they leave you a card that says, oh,
we've left it in a safe place.Like, no. You haven't left it
anyway. You've You've thrown itover a fence.
Guido (21:41):
So helpful of them. So Yes. Very. So helpful. K.
Let's, let's continue. Hey. Sometime ago, you, you posted on
LinkedIn, to change things up.You you wanted to start posting
more about, Siro. So first, Iwant to know what what what
triggered this, and, how has itbeen going, so far?
Matt (22:00):
Yeah. So what triggered it is is probably a mixture of
things. Firstly, so we we hiredan in house marketeer, about 6
months before that point who'dbeen banging on at me about,
Matt, you have to you have tostart doing something. Yeah.
Guido (22:18):
Use your network, Matt.
Matt (22:19):
Yeah. Pre pretty much. Yeah. I think also it was I've
gotten to the point where I'dstarted to understand, I'd
started to understand what Ibelieve to be important and and
sort of starting to form somerules, I guess, for myself,
about how I how I wanted totalk, and the message that that
(22:42):
I wanted to to get across. And Ithink, you know, similar to to
what we discussed earlier about,you know, the the teaching
element, where that where thatstarted and and where it and and
where it is now, you know, ittook it took time.
It took experience to understandreally what what that meant to
to me and and to us as abusiness. And I think it was the
(23:04):
same thing with, you know, with,with talking about CRO publicly
and and more frequently is thatit's taken me time to really
understand what it is that Iconsider to be important.
Guido (23:17):
And, how's that been going so far? What have you
posted about?
Matt (23:21):
Quite quite a lot
Guido (23:22):
of stuff. I started in the debates.
Matt (23:24):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I started with with setting out
the rules for myself. So I wrotethem down, and then and then I
posted those. So, I had 3 dosand and 3 don'ts.
So my 3 dos were, provokedebate, hence, what I have on
occasion, Support allpractitioners regardless of
(23:47):
level and champion doingsomething over nothing. You
know, as we as we talked aboutearlier on that front, you have
to start somewhere. You know,and that means choosing to do
something rather than donothing. It won't be perfect. It
may not even be good, to beginwith, but you you get nowhere if
you do nothing.
Guido (24:07):
So so how do you go about with, the first one, like,
provoke debate? It sounds soundslike a bit malicious. Like, it
doesn't really matter, if it'sgood or not or if it's true or
not, but at least it should
Matt (24:18):
Yeah. But it it marries it marries with the first of my
don'ts, which is don't sit onthe fence. You know, if you have
an opinion, voice it. You know?It it doesn't mean that you have
to be rude to people, and itdoesn't mean that you can't, you
can't, appreciate somebodyelse's perspective.
But I think in in the UK in inparticular, we we tend to shy
(24:43):
away from confrontation, and wewe tend to see confrontation as
a negative word. Whereas, so,one of my team is is French. And
she has been telling me foryears we've known each other a
long time. She has been tellingme for years that in France,
confrontation is not seen as anegative. It's seen as a
positive.
You know, you should you shouldengage in, in differences of
(25:06):
opinion. You know, if somebodysays something that you don't
believe to be true, you don'tjust nod. You know? You you say,
oh, well, you know, actually, mymy opinion is this, or I believe
this. And I think that, thatdebate is is important.
You know? We're we're never allgonna see eye to eye on
everything. We're never allgonna believe that the right way
(25:27):
to do things, whatever that evenis, the right way is is the
same. And it won't be the same,for everyone. It's all clouded
and and and shaped by our own,by our own experiences.
But talking about those andalmost celebrating those in a
way is is important.
Guido (25:44):
And how do you go, about doing this and and then
introducing or helping, newpeople. I think you also
mentioned that it might be a bitscary for newcomers to to Ciro,
to see people talking about Ciroin general. And then it feels
okay. Yeah. That it's that'sit's a high bar before I can can
(26:06):
join the Ciro club.
Matt (26:07):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It it is. And I I think a lot of that
stems from there's been a lot ofdiscourse in our in our industry
over recent years thateveryone's doing everything
wrong.
And, yeah, some some of that maybe correct.
Guido (26:25):
That's yeah. Yes.
Matt (26:26):
And and and maybe it's it's true. And but that, to me,
isn't really the point. Youknow, if you want to if you want
to bring people on on a journeywith you, you don't tell them
they're wrong all the time. Youknow, you recognize that what
they're doing right now isthey're doing the best that they
(26:47):
can. Yes.
Okay. They may be missingcertain information. But, you
know, if you as I mentionedearlier around bringing, you
know, new people into our team,like, I've I've seen some things
that they've done and gone, oh,no. Probably don't wanna do
that. But you don't you don'tjust shout you're doing it wrong
at them out the door.
You know? You sit down with themand go, okay. How did you get to
that point? Okay. Well, you gotto that.
(27:08):
Yep. 3 years ago, I did the samething. You know? Until somebody
else pointed out to me that thisyou know? So you you recognize
your own flaws.
I guess, you you you bear thoseflaws to people. And then if you
tell them, okay. Well, that thatthing, you know, you need to do
that in this way, Theyunderstand that that isn't just
(27:31):
you saying this is you know, Iknow more than you. I was where
you were, you know, 3 years ago,5 years ago, whatever it is,
because each and every one of ushas you know, if if you look
back at some of the, some of thethings you did 5 years ago,
would you do them the same waynow? I highly doubt it.
I certainly wouldn't. Yeah. AndI don't think there is one of
(27:53):
us, in in in our industry whowouldn't say that. And in
another 5 years, we will do thesame thing. We will look back at
what we're doing today andprobably think, yeah, I wouldn't
have wouldn't do that that waynow.
Guido (28:06):
There there are a lot of things I did yesterday that I
already did. So
Matt (28:09):
It a common a common, my mother made to me, a few years
ago. So I I was telling her itwas not long after my 30th
birthday, and I was telling herabout some of the decisions I'd
made in my early twenties andsaid, oh, just I can't believe
that, you know, that that that Ithought that that was a good
idea. And she, she would havebeen in her fifties at the time,
(28:30):
and she said to me, oh, don'tworry. There are things I look
back on that I did in myforties, and I still feel the
same way. So in some senses, itwas it was a relief to know that
it never gets any it neverchanges.
In other ways, it's a littledisappointing knowing that you
will always look back, on thingsand and think I would do it
differently. But yeah. So Ithink that the the engagement of
(28:52):
those who are newer into, newerinto the industry, you don't get
that engagement, with people.You don't bring them along a
journey by telling them they'rewrong all the time. Yeah.
You you do it by recognizingthat you too, were there and
that we're all on a we're all onthe same we're all on the same
path. It's just about at whatpoint in time did you start on
(29:12):
it.
Guido (29:13):
Yeah. Yeah. And and I don't think that's anything
specific to CRO. Right? I mean,that that it's all about getting
new people in and trying to keepthem motivated, throughout their
journey.
Matt (29:23):
Yeah. Because they they they are the the future of the
industry sits with sits withpeople who are newer in. You
know? We will we will, at somepoint, you know, pack this in
and retire and you know? Butother people need to need to be
there to, you know, to carry iton.
You know, we all we all agreethat it is an essential part of,
(29:45):
of of businesses growing,developing, prospering, to have
this, to have thisexperimentation mindset. I just
it it it pained me. I actuallyhad a after I posted that
initially, I got a few messagesfrom people, people I'd I'd
never met before, who told methat they felt that they are
(30:12):
relatively new to the industryand that everything that they
were reading was telling themthat they would never be good
enough. And that that hurt alittle bit because, to some
extent, we all end up beingtarred with the same brush.
Guido (30:28):
Yeah. I mean, if you if you just, only look at the the c
xl.com, list of courses you canfollow for a Siro specialist. I
mean, that's that's that's quitethe list. Right? I mean and I I
love them.
But if if you're if that's thestart of your journey, you see
that list. I can imagine that'sthat's not necessarily
Matt (30:50):
more than being
Guido (30:51):
It's pretty intimidating. List of of stuff you need to
know.
Matt (30:53):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's pretty it's pretty
intimidating. And and it and itends up going back to to one of
my other dos, which is championsomething over nothing.
If you think that you're goingto before you do absolutely
anything, you're gonna do all ofthose courses and learn all of
that stuff and then start,you'll probably never start. You
(31:13):
know? Learning by doing and isis, in my opinion, the most
effective, the most effectiveform of learning. And in the
end, one of the the core tenantsof what we do is about test and
learn. You know, that shouldapply to us as individuals as
much as it, as much as it doesto the work that we do.
(31:34):
The assumption is you're gonnabe wrong more often than you're
gonna be right, and that's okay.And that that that idea needs to
needs to move over into people'sdevelopment as much as it does
in the the day to day practiceof our
Guido (31:47):
work. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things, that you also,
mentioned that, I think relatedis that, 0 or experimentation,
does not have to be allencompassing, to be valuable.
Right?
The those elements alreadycontribute to the whole.
Matt (32:03):
Yeah. I think this this was one of the debates I sparked
at one stage. And I I used the Iused the comparison with
communism, which I'm I'm notsure. Maybe I shouldn't have
used it. But
Guido (32:13):
Oh, if you wanna stir some debate, then that's a good
start.
Matt (32:16):
Well, I I do have a history degree as well, you
know, perfectly relevant to myprofession, obviously. But,
yeah, it was basically in, therethere were 2 different strands
of of communism at one point,one where they believed that you
could skip stages in Marx andEngels' idea of the progression
of society, and a and a and acontrary view that said you
(32:38):
could not. If you did, the wholething would break. Obviously,
what happens in history is theydo try and skip stages, and the
whole thing falls apart. Mybelief is that, from a CRO
perspective at least, is thattrying to skip stages isn't
isn't gonna be effective.
People have to have gone througheach sort of phase of that
(33:01):
maturity to understand it inorder to know where the next
stage is and how, how they'regonna be able to operate that
that effectively. So trying tomove people from doing nothing
to or or a business even fromdoing nothing to saying everyone
in this company has anexperimentation mindset, in my
(33:22):
view, is it's it's never gonnahappen. It's never gonna happen
that quickly. You know? Theythey can't just skip the, you
know, they can't skip the callit the dabbling stages, that
come in between.
Guido (33:36):
And, we're almost out of time, unfortunately. I really
really loving this, this talk.And, definitely with, regards to
the LinkedIn post, definitelykeep keep doing that. Keep
stirring that, debate. Hey.
And, maybe for future, podcast,who do you think we should,
interview for that?
Matt (33:56):
So I mentioned, I mentioned someone earlier that
that we hired who went frombeing a police officer to, to a
CRO. His name is Sam Irvine.He's a consultant at
conversion.com. Mhmm. For me,his story is a brilliant one,
of, like I said, of of takingrisk, of of testing something
(34:17):
new.
And as I said, he has he hasgone from he has gone from a
public servant, to to someonewho has become a a really, a
really impressive practitioner.And I think it it it just it's
it's a perfect illustration.
Guido (34:33):
Yeah. Let let's see if he's, he's as positive, of you
as he as you are.
Matt (34:39):
I only spoke to him last night just to see how things
were getting on. So, yeah, I Ihope so. I hope so. But, yeah,
well worth talking to. A a very,a very different story, I guess,
to to most, that people wouldhave heard.
Guido (34:52):
Nice. Yeah. And I'll, Yeah. If you can get us
introduced, then, I would love,hearing, his story. Matt, thank
you so much for, for taking thetime out of your busy schedule,
to, to talk to us, and I hope totalk to you soon.
And I hope to see a lot of,LinkedIn discussions.
Matt (35:08):
Perhaps so. Good. Thanks a lot.
Guido (35:09):
Thanks. Bye bye.
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