July 24, 2023 • 49 mins
Unlock the door to the intriguing world of the Duggar family with us, as we venture into the complex interplay of religion, media, and personal lives in the first episode of the captivating documentary series 'Shiny Happy People'. The spotlight may seem to be on the Duggars, but the true protagonist is the Institute and the enigmatic Bill Gothard. Prepare to question your beliefs and challenge your assumptions as we examine the Orthodox religious upbringing of this unique family who became an oddity showcased by the TLC network.
We unravel the Duggar family's strict missionary Baptist lifestyle and familial dynamics, from Jim Bob's unusual fascination with cheerleading to Michelle's strangely marginal presence in the series. We also shed light on the experiences of Deanna, Amy's mother, and her decision to offer her daughter a life she was denied - a life outside the confines of their strict religious beliefs. Brace yourselves for a deep dive into the controversial world of Bill Gothard, his original religion Gideonism, his seven life principles, and the 'umbrella of protection', an oppressive system of hierarchy he propagated. In our journey, we also unmask the controversies surrounding the Duggar family and Bill Gothard, with a special emphasis on Jim Holt's involvement.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Okay okay, so okay, we're back.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
And we're back without producer Jen this week.
Producer Jen is out of town outof the country in Korea.
She's in Korea, which is verycool.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
It is very cool.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Here we are having to press our own record buttons.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
There's no cute little commentating.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
No on the side.
It's a sad day.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
It is a sad day.
No really good pictures.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Nobody here to capture my six chins as I lounge
, because I don't have to worryabout it.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah exactly, or my bad posture.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Although that's not true, because you just put me on
blast to everyone on InstagramStory you do not have six change
.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
You have one in that video and a half maybe yeah, I
think my phone was in the way.
Yeah, you're welcome, I Well.
I mean, it's been a minutesince we recorded.
Yeah, a lot of things have goneon in life, though.
Yeah so we apologize, but lifehappens you're on vacation.
(01:09):
Piper had 17,000 little leaguegames.
Jen was working a lot.
Yeah, we had to pull deckboards.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yeah, sometimes you find that you know People are
lazy and there's entire bouldersin your house, demolish a
concrete porch and then justdecide to build a wood porch
over top of it instead of doingthings the right way.
And yeah, then the concreteslabs lean into your foundation
of your house and almost takeout a wall.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, is what it is.
Yeah, we were busy, but we'reback.
We did do a live saying that wewere gonna talk about this
documentary, which hopefullythis gave people plenty of time
to watch it.
Yeah, so this is your spoileralert spoiler alert.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yes, episode focuses on Our podcast.
Episode is focusing on episodeone, and only episode one, of
shiny happy people Yep, which isa free series that got released
recently on Amazon Prime,correct, and the.
(02:15):
I think I would call it the hookinto the show, because it's
really not about them, but theylike cleverly use them as a way
to get people to be like oh, Iremember that I'm gonna watch
the show is if you were growingup and remember there was like
18 different variations of theshow but like I think the last
one was 19 kids and counting.
Yeah, obviously at some pointit was 18 and 17 and 14 with the
(02:39):
Duggar family, which I Rememberthem.
I didn't watch the show when Iwas younger but I remember that
show existing and I rememberpeople.
It was like a clever popculture reference.
Like you know, if the Duggarfamily can do it with 18 kids,
like you could do it with twokind of right.
So they are definitely the hookinto the show, but the show is
(03:06):
actually more about theInstitute and Bill gothard.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Yeah, which is crazy because I think we touched on
this a little bit in the live isso many people sent me Like a
link to this series to be likeyou need to watch this, you need
to watch this, and I'm like,why do I need to watch about 19
kids and counting?
Then I started watching it andI was like in complete and utter
shock that this like religionthat they were involved in was
(03:32):
so like hand-in-hand.
How I grew up like I was justbaffled that I was just a little
bit more like I was justbaffled that I didn't know this
before, right.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I had that same reaction because you know 19
kids accounting was like a bitof a phenomenon, if you will.
It was, like we said, like Isaid, like huge pop culture
reference.
I think At the time that thatshow became popular was just
when, like mainstream media wasrealizing what like reality,
(04:01):
reality TV could be, and youknow they mentioned it actually
in the first episode but it's alow-cost Production of a show
that people were just enamoredwith, like you think about back
then.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
I mean that has to be around the time, like the real
world started to become a thingand all of that, the housewives
like all that.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
So you know the they came in at just the right time
where all that stuff wasbecoming popular, I think.
And, and yeah, so you know, Ithink that was something that
back then, like if you askedanybody that was a bit older,
like I'm not even that old, youknow, I was young when that show
was out, like probably insingle digits even, yeah, and I
(04:48):
still remember it right.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
So, like people older than me, certainly remember it,
oh yeah yeah, and I mean, ifyou think about it too like this
kind of crossed my mind when Iwas reviewing everything this
morning.
So TLC is the channel that putit out right and probably 90% of
those shows are geared towardslike the demographic of women or
like younger you know, I don'tknow like teen and up women.
(05:14):
So like this show had to havebeen mostly watched by like
women.
Like I couldn't see like my dadsitting down and watching that
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Like and TLC always had those like very.
It's funny because I think thatTLC elected to do the show with
them because they were alwaysthis network that did like
series like that on, likeoddities, and they saw them as
an oddity with, you know, 14kids or whatever it was when it
first started.
(05:45):
And then it just became thisthing that people stopped seeing
as an oddity, which is reallyweird.
They almost started to see themas this, like perfect Christian
family, as opposed to sayinglike hey, the rest of this
network picks up things that arejust strange.
Yeah, like they literally havea show called my Strange
(06:05):
Addiction that they air.
They have all kinds likebridezillas.
Like they're not airing thingsthat they're like trying to get
people to watch because they'relike we want you to be better,
so let me show you this likeperfect example of how to run
your family.
Like they obviously picked thisas a show to have because it
was shocking and they thought itwould gravitate an audience.
(06:28):
But that's not how we look at it.
I mean that's not.
I mean that's how we look at it.
That's not how a lot of peoplewill look at it.
A lot of people look at it andare, oh my God, look at how
organized they are for havingthat many kids and look at what
wonderful parents they are.
All the kids are so wellbehaved.
Blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
But gag, yeah, we'll go behind the scenes on all of
those.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yes, so yeah, so what the show is actually about, as
I mentioned, is a cult, like Ithink it's fair to call it that
called the Institute.
And its founder's name is BillGothard.
And so they spend the firstepisode.
Definitely there are members ofthe Duggar family that are
(07:12):
happy participants in the show,as well as ex-institute members,
and really the show is actuallyabout this cult, but they use
the Duggars as like a familiarpop culture reference for
everyone, which is amazing.
Yes, actually I think that it'sreally great because you said
(07:32):
this already.
I mean, I said this Watchingthat show that's not what you
associated it with.
That's somebody that didn'tcome from that place.
But I think that in the futureepisodes there are some of those
people that are ex-institutemembers that say like I watch
that show and I immediatelycouldn't watch it because I knew
what was going on there.
(07:53):
So it's like four people thatare recovering or have left
their experiences there.
It was immediately identifiablefor them, but not to
necessarily the common eye,which I think is a little
dangerous, because you watchthat and you see all these parts
that you think are good, nothow they're getting there with
(08:15):
them, and I think that that'svery dangerous.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
And I think one girl in the show at one point on the
first episode called itEvangelical Propaganda,
fundamentalist Propaganda, yepwhich I think is very, very fair
to title it that, Because it'salmost like how they sink their
hooks into you in a religionperiod.
(08:39):
They show you something likeyou could have this great
organized life with childrenthat behave and the doting wife
and the masculine husband whoworks and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
None of them are masculine.
They all look the same yeahshort tail.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Nirty round glasses Right, like beating their wives
and their children hate them.
But we'll get into that too.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
So I think, to start, maybe we'll talk about the
people that were involved inepisode one and just give
backgrounds on all of thesepeople, because it's one thing
that you and I were talkingabout when you first got here,
because I also rewatched theepisode this morning just to
make sure it was fresh, and Iknow you did the same.
There are a lot of people thatthey put on the show and I think
it's easy to perceive them asheroes because they're brave.
(09:29):
Quote unquote, which I mean Idon't want to take away from
that.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Right, like I do think they're just speaking up.
Yes, I do think there's more tothe story.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yes, I do think it takes a lot to be the face and
tell the truth, but I also don'twant to get lost and twisted
here that not all of thesepeople are good people still.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
No, but like obviously they might be saying
and letting their voices beheard.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
But there are still some of these people on here
that and some that aren't, butsome that are just like.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
They're still shitheads and don't lose sight
of that and I'm sure they gotpaid to be on the show.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Handsomely, I'm sure.
Well, I mean depending on howwell the show did, which Right,
which is done very well, yeah,so yeah, go through your list,
nicole.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Ok, nicole and her lists.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yes, so we have Jim Bob Jim.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Bob.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
And his wife, Michelle Yep, who are the
parents, the Duggers and theTeen Kids and Counting.
So, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar.
Jill Duggar who I believe islike the third or fourth kid
yeah.
Yeah, so she's one of thechildren from 19 Kids and
Counting who was interviewed onthe show with her husband.
(10:43):
I didn't write her husband'sname down, but he's in there as
well.
Amy Duggar Well, they're notDuggers anymore, right?
Amy, who is the cousin of allthe children on the show.
So Jim Bob's sister, whose nameis Deanna, who also interviews
on the show, her child, amy, ison the show and gives interviews
(11:09):
, and Amy is not brought up inthe same way as the correct the
other children.
I have some good notes on that.
Okay, so do we?
I mean, do you want, should westop and talk about each one
(11:31):
individually as we talk about?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
them.
I mean, we can yeah, okay, solet's start with Jim, bob and
Michelle let's start with Jim,bob and Michelle.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Okay, so what?
I know that you have likedetailed information on all of
these things?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, so Jim Bob and his sister Deanna.
Yes, we're raised like Baptist,right.
Was it like missionary Baptist.
Well, let me get.
Let me get to that page notes.
People can hear us likeflipping.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, that's fine, as we do this, I have like six
pages here.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
This just shows our dedication.
Yeah, sure does.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Make sure you flip it close to the microphone so
people believe us.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Okay, there you go.
It's a little what ASMR.
Yeah, there you go, you'rewelcome, free therapy.
So, yeah, they were raisedmissionary Baptist, which?
So if we rewind to things thatwe've talked about about the
church I grew up in, they saythat they're non quote, unquote,
non-denominational, which isjust a fancy way of saying we
(12:27):
don't want to put a title on itbecause these other people have
titles and bad people or thingsthat bad things have been said
about these titles.
But it's literally this.
Yeah, because she mentions thatwhen they grew up, they had no
dances at school, which we knowis check, I did not have any
dances at school.
They were not allowed to wearjeans.
Remember, check, I was notallowed to wear jeans.
(12:48):
They didn't have things likecheerleading, which I found very
interesting that they grew upwhere they didn't have
cheerleading or they couldn't becheerleaders.
But Jim Bob saw Michellecheerleading and was like, oh, I
need to date that.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
I also find it interesting that, of all sports,
that that's going to be the onethat they target, that they're
not allowed to do, because whatdoes a cheerleader do?
Like wear short skirts, andWell, I mean, I guess I've been
the short skirt part, but yousit on the sideline and cheer on
the men.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Yeah, like it's your soul role, right.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
I mean there's going to be somebody that gets to find
it out there.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
I acknowledge the immense amount of athleticism
that is required to be acheerleader.
Right.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
And, like now, you have cheer competitions and
whatever else, that was not likethat.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
That was not like that, correct.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
So, please, if you are a cheerleader, I absolutely
would break every limb in mybody if I attempted to do any of
that.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Right.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
This is not me like poo pooing and cheerleading.
Okay, but back then.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
And then it was not like that.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
You showed up at the football games and cheered on
all the men and, you know, acteddainty and whatever else so
like I am a bit surprised thatlike Fact that they were not
allowed to participate in that,so that was like one thing where
I was like, oh, okay, so theywere raised.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
very much.
You cannot cheerlead.
But Jim Bob immediately wentand found a cheerleader who, he
like, shared the word of Godwith and she got down on her
hands and knees and accepted yougot into her like whatever the
hell it was, yeah, whatever thatmeant, but I also I don't know
if you caught this, but I thinkit was Jill said that they got
(14:28):
married at 17 and 19.
Yes, and how old were they whenthey first met and how long did
they date?
Because that's super young, 17is so young.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Yeah, but like that for them in those communities,
like that's not young for them.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
They start promising each other to be married, like
when you're like young teens,yeah, so whatever.
Yeah, I mean I'm less surprisedby that nowadays, because I
mean yeah even look at um, whatdo you want to call it?
The Mormon religions, likethose kids have, like three kids
.
Those kids have kids, yeah.
By the time they're 20.
(15:05):
Yeah, 21.
Yeah, that's gross, but sure.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yep, so that's.
That's a little background onJim, bob and Michelle.
They don't really talk too muchabout Michelle other than she
was a cheerleader.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, which is hilarious too.
I noticed that throughout thewhole first episode, like she's
barely the entire series.
They don't really talk muchabout her background, which
makes me wonder thinking backlike I don't want, I don't have
time for this, but like if Iwere to go back and watch 19
kids and counting.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
It makes me wonder how often she would even be on
that show other than to likesupport something that.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Oh, I'm sure that's how.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Because you watch this, you watch this episode and
the only time she's sayinganything is to reinforce what
he's saying, the teachings thathe's saying, or whatever he's
putting out there.
So yeah, um.
So the second one was Jill JillDuggar, who's now Dillard
Dillard, okay.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
You remember that fan ?
Yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
That was photographic memory.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, yeah, high five .
Speaker 1 (16:08):
So there are things about her.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
I'm not going to say quite yet, yeah, cause it's
going to get coming.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Yeah, but she is, like I said, I think like the
fourth kid or something.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I think she's like this.
They had twins first yeah andthen they were.
Josh, then twins, then her.
I think Josh's first.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
So then there's twins and then her or something like
that.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, she had to be like the fourth, so she's yes.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
So she has chosen to be interviewed on the show which
, like I want to say up front,throughout all of the episodes,
obviously Jim, bob and Michellerefused to partake in the making
of the show.
So um, her choosing to be onthis show is obviously against
the wishes oh yeah, and herparticipation is against the
(16:55):
wishes of her parents.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, I mean and they will get into that more I mean
she.
I don't think she associates atall with her family.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
It doesn't appear to be that way.
Yes, it doesn't appear to bethat way.
I don't know if, like maybesome of the siblings she talks
to, though.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
It's yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
I feel like that's possible, but like parents, yeah
, anything else you have on her.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Um, not really.
I mean, that's kind of like herbackground.
I mean, obviously we'll talkabout more about things that
happened, or she said, yeah,also, side note, her husband,
which we can't remember his name, um is a piece of shit Really.
Oh, big time, like they makehim seem like very supportive
(17:36):
and you know great Like he's.
You know he's keeping hersecrets and blah, blah, blah.
But he literally like makesvery, very um homophobic
comments on, like his internetpages.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Oh yeah, Cause a lot of the kids have YouTube pages
and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
So like that was like one thing where I was like dude
, he like like comes off on here.
Like you know, jill and Ihelped Jill get out of this
horrible family, but he'sactually a piece of shit.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Oh yeah, big surprise , um and then I'm going to lump
Amy and Deanna together.
So Deanna is Jim Bob sister,like we said.
Um, they, as, as mentioned,grew up missionary Baptist.
Deanna takes the fact that shewas not allowed to wear skirts
(18:23):
or, I'm sorry, where there is adeer, like literally right
behind you.
Baby Two of them.
Little babies, the babies.
Yeah, we got.
We got two little baby deer inthe neighborhood.
Um, that roam around our housebecause Autumn was so kind as to
um feed them carrots last year.
Uh, after, was it so cute?
(18:43):
Yeah, is it so cute whenthey're shitting on my lawn and
it's good for a laser Okay.
Um, okay, yeah, so Deanna andAmy.
Um, so Deanna grows upmissionary Baptist as well, all
the things that crush mentioned,like not allowed to do
cheerleading, not allowed towear pants Um, all of that grows
up in that very strict religionand explicitly states that.
(19:05):
They explicitly states thatthat's not what she wanted for
her child, so she was going tolet her kid do those things.
Like Amy, the daughter mentionshaving a boyfriend as early as
eight and, you know, being ableto go to school dances and, you
know, be a cheerleader and dothe things that she wanted to do
(19:25):
.
And then starts to talk about,like, growing up and because she
was on the TV show, yeah, Withthe cousins.
So clips that they show wherethe cousins are, like yeah,
amy's a little different than us, but we do still, of course,
love her.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Like because Amy was living this life.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
That, like, the kids are like oh, a normal life, yes,
a normal life, yes, but not tothem.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Not to them.
You know she's, she's beingpromiscuous and whatever else,
and you could see like from suchan early age, because these are
.
These clips are from childrenthat are in single digits, yeah,
and they're like they'repraying for her soul.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
They're praying for her soul.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
They're passing judgment at such an early age
and, like I actually talked withAutumn about this recently,
asked her a question Like do youthink judgment and hate is a
learned behavior or somethingthat's you know, or is it frog
segueırd, how inherently grownwithin you?
Like something that you're bornwith that like fosters and
(20:28):
grows over time.
And she's that taught Like shebelieves that it's taught and
like that is just a primeexample of something that a kid
is not judgmental by nature.
That is a learned behavior.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
I actually I think I wrote up like a quote down oh, I
did too at the end.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Like monsters are created.
Yes, I wrote that down too.
Yep, yep, yep, we'll get intothat, we'll get into that.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
But I do have some more Amy comments.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
So there was a couple of things she said that hit
close to home, like cause I'mtrying to like pull the
similarities from how I grew up,like what I'm seeing in here,
and like one of the things shesaid is like they didn't have a
radio, like they weren't allowedto listen to the radio.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
That was like another big.
Thing.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I had TV, but it was very strictly like only certain.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Are you talking about you or what she said?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Both Like they didn't have a TV Like I could watch,
but not like it was very likeyou could watch only a few shows
.
The other thing she said isthey she could have posters of
boys on the wall, like she waslike, oh, I had Jonathan, taylor
, thomas, and like none of thegirls or cousins could have that
, and that was like one likething I always I don't know if
(21:39):
we talked about this already,but how I wasn't allowed to like
have any posters on like ofboys on my wall, so like I would
cut little magazine picturesand tape them underneath my
nightstand so that, like when Ilaid down at night, I could like
see them taped under there, butlike if my parents came in my
room, they couldn't see it.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
So did you ever get caught?
No, well done.
Yes, thank you.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Thank you.
So yeah, I had like little MarkMcGrath, mark McGrath.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
You might've just blown every fucking kid in,
though, dude, probably Everyparent's gonna go in their room
and check their kids on theirside, on their nightstand.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah.
So that was like something thatI was like, oh, I relate to
that.
And another thing about thatwhole like judgy cousin
perspective.
So when I was growing up I wasnot really allowed to like hang
out with my cousins like very,very frequent, but without my
parents, right.
(22:35):
So there was this one time that, the first and only time I was
allowed to spend the night at mygrandparents house with my
cousin, I was probably 16 or 17.
And she took me to a houseparty because she had an older
boyfriend.
And let me tell you I walkedinto that house how old were you
(22:56):
.
I was like 16 or so.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
I think I was like 17 .
Speaker 2 (22:58):
At this point I might even have been, like, just
graduated high school, but I wasolder, right so, and it wasn't
skinny Atlas, because that'swhere my family's from, and I
walked into this giant likehouse with that's where our
wedding is.
Fun, fact, fun fact.
I walked into this giant houseand literally I like it when you
(23:21):
call me big pup, but wasplaying like blasting on-.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
What an epic walk-up song.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yeah, dude, I literally walked in and it was
like ah, look at when you callme big pup.
But and then like I was juststanding there, literally again,
I've never seen a house partybefore.
Obviously I don't drink, solike zero idea of what was going
on.
My cousin just disappears withher boyfriend and I'm just by
myself in social shock of thishouse party and sensory overload
(23:48):
also, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
And then I had you ever even heard that song before
?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
that no, Right, okay.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
And now I mean I'm just saying it's like one of my
favorite songs and anyone whoknows that that song was like
very popular, so like two havenever heard it.
I feel like I'm being a 16, 17year old kid.
That's wild, that just showslike how much censorship that
you were experiencing.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
And I went home and literally the amount of guilt I
had about, a going to a houseparty, b letting my cousin go
off by herself with a boy Godonly knows what they were doing.
But I'm sure there wasn't roomfor Jesus and, like I, like
guilted myself over this forseveral days and I was convinced
(24:30):
that my parents were gonna findout.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
And like I was, a hundred percent going to hell.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
No, I don't think so.
Okay, so I just did.
Dad, if you're listening, Iwent to a house party, sorry.
Biggie Smalls, yeah.
So that was like I was like Ifeel like Amy was my cousin.
Yeah, okay, trying to get me togo to house parties and I was
like, oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Which is so crazy that you're gonna watch the show
and then you're gonna likeidentify literally somebody in
your life that you're like, okay, like, this person is my Amy.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Like that's how paralleled your experience was.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
And I had another huge like bomb dropped in my
head about this one too, whichsometimes I am like looking back
at my life and being like, wasthis a personal issue?
Or like, where did this comefrom?
So Amy mentions that none ofher cousins are allowed to wear
(25:23):
shorts.
I don't know if you caught that.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Amy and who.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Amy says none of her cousins are allowed to wear
shorts.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Oh, yes, I did catch that.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
So I literally didn't wear shorts in public until
like 2014.
And I don't know, like where,like part of me is like where
did that come from?
Like, is it because we wereliterally, like, taught we were
not allowed to wear?
Like?
The only time I ever woreshorts was like in the summer,
at our private church camp orlike at gym class, especially as
(25:54):
, like a teenager like I didn'twear shorts in public.
I didn't wear anything above myknee.
So even after I left the church, which was in 2001, it took me
13 or 14 years to ever wearshorts in public.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
That's wild.
Yeah, here I am today.
What was that?
What were you going throughLike?
Do you remember what it waslike the first time that you did
it?
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, like I remember saying, this is the first time
I'm wearing shorts in public.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Were you still wearing dresses in public at
that point, or you were justwearing pants at?
Speaker 2 (26:28):
least no, I would wear pants yeah.
Okay so even if it was 95 out,I would still be wearing pants.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
So then the first time you wear shorts, like
what's going through your head,like are you having a pep talk
yourself?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Oh yeah definitely pep talk myself.
I still kind of feel that way.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Really.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Like I have to like pep talk myself to put shorts on
and I don't know, like where,like I'm obviously nowhere that
comes from, but like it's crazythat it's still like inherent in
my life.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yeah, that you even have the thought.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Right.
Like is this too immodest?
Like am I showing too much skin?
Like?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
You got all them tattoos, girl.
I know, would you get them offor show them off Exactly?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
exactly, but it's crazy that that mentality will
still creep up like in me thatlike, oh, my shorts are too
short, like I'm showing too muchskin, and da da, da, da da.
What are people gonna think?
And then I remind myself likeyou, a bad bitch, don't care.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
You know, right.
Do you know what's funny aboutthe posters thing?
This is just like a personalfunny story.
So I obviously was allowed tohave posters on my wall of boys
as a child.
Do you know the one boy I choseto hang on on?
Lance Bass?
Oh my God, that's when thewhole world should have known.
Not JT, no, not.
You know some Backstreet Boyswho was the?
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Nick Carter yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
You know none of the like typical heart throbs, like
no.
I managed to pick the one guythat was a raging homosexual
that came out later as ahomosexual, like good for me,
everyone should have known yeah,yeah, just a signed picture of
him on my wall, yep.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
The only one I can love it.
Yeah, I love it I love it, Ilove it.
It's hilarious Anyway the Holtz, which this one I'm very
excited to talk about.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
I'm so excited about this one so the Holtz are Jim
Bob's old best friends.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
They knew each other as kids, right yes, High school.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
So this is confusing because the husband's name is
also Jim.
I never caught the wife's name.
Do you know the wife's name?
Nope, she only says like sixwords.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Wifey.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah, so they were childhood best friends.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yes, and he comes on the show Jim Bob and Jim Holtz.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yes, jim Holtz is presented in a way that makes
you want to think that he's thevoice of like, reason and
morality in the situation.
But this is what I'm talkingabout, where I want to back up a
minute here Because they slidein like real quick, like I had
(28:57):
to rewind and be like did I justhear what?
I think I heard?
He mentions in his introductionthat how him, he and his wife
met was that he went on a blinddate that was set up for him
with her, and he was 19 yearsold and she was 14.
She was very developed.
(29:18):
He said One, four and referredto her as very developed.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
I didn't know she was very developed.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Yes, and then says like but you know, like, we all
get married young in Arkansas orwherever they're from, and then
she's not like oh yeah.
And then makes a joke like andwe're related, ha ha ha, just
kidding.
And it's just like, and that'sit, and that's it.
And then they move on from that.
So like not cool, no right.
You could make the argumentlike I'm sure somebody out there
is like, well, if that's howthey were brought up, like is
(29:46):
that really his fault?
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yes, kind of thing it is.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
But also like, yeah, I still think it's kind of your
fault, like I'm not an excuseperson of like you know, you
can't have it both ways.
Either people have free will tomake their own decisions Like
that's that's why you say that,like in religion, like you have
sin and all those things,because people always say, well,
like, if God exists, why areyou to bad things happen and
(30:10):
people are like oh well, youknow, you still have the freedom
of choice to do whatever.
So, like you can't have yourcake and eat it too, so you also
have a choice to not subscribeto the fact that it's cool that
you marry a 14 year old kid.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Just because she's, just because she did Right.
And then the fun fact I have myJim Holt note says Jim Holt
dash, and then in red andunderlined M, f and asshole is
what I have written next day.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Okay, can you give us some more background there?
Okay, so.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Jim holds obviously was Jim Bob's best friend, right
?
Speaker 1 (30:43):
I don't know how in depth you want me to drop into
this drop what you want to drop,because I don't think there's
really going to be another spaceto.
Because they make him seem likea hero the whole time, at least
in the first episode.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
We know in the first episode they start talking about
which we might be skippingahead a little bit, but it's
going to go well into the JimHolt era that Josh.
Obviously everybody knows Joshis a pedophile, right yeah.
So they start talking about howJim, bob and Michelle like came
(31:16):
and told them that Josh was hadhad molested some kids right
Growing up.
They talk about that.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Right, and they say and some of them were his
sisters.
Right so now that we're sayingthis, like that is why Jill is
on the show.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Right, she was one of them, so they came and told Jim
Holt and his wife that Josh hadbeen molesting people in the
family and at that time JimHolt's daughter, Kaylee.
Kaylee was dating Josh and theysaid they weren't going to tell
Kaylee or the parents untilafter they were married because
(31:54):
they were hoping that that wouldfix him.
Which is ridiculous sanity,because marriage doesn't fix the
child molester.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Right.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
And they think it's going to probably make it even
worse.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Well, what you go?
Get to have children and thencontinue to be a child molester.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
But they also say dates.
They said oh, it was 2003 whenJim Bob came to us and told us
that Josh was doing this or haddone this, but it was 2008 when
19 kids and counting was put onTV.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Right.
So that's five years of themknowing I did not actually catch
until this last time that I waswatching it as I was taking
notes, just because I think Iwas more engaged watching it.
Yeah, these allegations cameout in the public prior to
choosing to allow them to be atelevision sensation.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Five years, five years.
And then Jim Holt and his wifeand family choose to be on the
television show to support allof this, knowing those
allegations?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
So they absolutely come on the show trying to have
this like revisionist, likehistory type of attitude and you
know I'm going to put a littlebit of this on the producers of
the show.
They kind of allow them toalmost be in a redemption story,
I feel like when really likewhat, what entitles them to that
(33:24):
Right Right, like like you kindof brushed over that fact
because I missed it when Iwatched it at first and you're
just like not reallyhighlighting like all of these
people's like complicitattitudes in this situation.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
So to dig in deeper to Jim Holt yeah, so he knew
about Josh still at the TV show.
Be the whole 14 year old wife.
He also ran side by side inpolitics with Jim Bob.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
And they had very similar platforms.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Right, which was also well after the allegations came
out.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Oh yeah, I mean Jim Bob literally ran like the day
after like major allegationscame out about Josh.
So that also to me is completeinsanity.
But recently Jim Holt's wifehas put a restraining order out
on him.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
No kidding.
Like within the last month.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Wow, and it said like he's been physically abusive
him and because they have like11 kids.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yes, so he, like he, when he was being interviewed
and introducing himself and hewas like and we have two kids,
once on one daughter, and thenthe wife like kind of looked at
him and then I think she's theone that says we have 11
children.
Yeah, and I don't know if, like, it was supposed to be a joke,
because obviously his sense ofhumor is odd right like, because
(34:54):
it's almost like he knows allthis stuff is real shitty shitty
and and Abnormal and notsocially acceptable, to say the
least, because he cracks jokesabout what should be a typical
answer right, regularly andthroughout the show.
Yeah, and like I don't thinkthey were gonna actually let him
get away with saying he onlyhad two kids.
(35:16):
But it's just the point thatyou, like you think that joke is
funny.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Well, now there's a restraining order.
That's interesting yeah and Ithink it's.
It must be one of the youngerchildren.
Mm-hmm, she has the youngerchildren, so there's like a
restraining order against himwith, like her and the child.
Okay, so I was like that's whyI put MF an asshole, because
this guy's an asshole and hecomes off in this TV show.
Like I finally told Jim Bob, hehad to turn Josh in.
(35:43):
Yeah, okay, you told him toturn him in and then you
literally did the show with themfor like years and then ran
like side-by-side, like for manyand I'd be interested to know
at all.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
I would be interested to know like what impact that
was on, like the relationshipwith the daughter because, like
Josh went up to the parents andsaid I'd like to court your
daughter for the purposes ofmarriage, which gag is estate
1800s or right.
Um, so I I'm curious, likeafter they found that out, did
they just continue to let theirdaughter date him, like he
(36:16):
obviously didn't marry her right?
Then they very quickly aftershow, like his wife's name was
like Anna or whatever, but Imean I can't imagine that they
cut that off immediately.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I know because okay, so do we want to dig into the
whole Jim Bob and Jim Holt Likesituation of?
Jim Holt said to Jim Bob likeso Jim Bob Was in political
office at the time and he hadjust put a bill forward, just
hang on, so he was, so he wasOkay.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Before we get to that , before we get to that, okay,
so we have, because that'll,that's like a whole rabbit hole.
We're gonna miss these othertwo people and oh yeah, I'm
gonna play.
One of them is the mostimportant person of all, okay,
so there's another person thatcomes on towards the end that's
very involved in future episodes, called Brooke Arnold Yep.
Brooke is an X Institute member.
(37:12):
I blp I blp member, which I blpis probably what we're gonna
say.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yeah, it's a lot, it's a mouthful.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah, it stands for Insta I have a gun down
somewhere.
Yeah, institute and basic lifeprinciples what it stands for.
So I blp um.
She's an X member of that, soshe's coming on.
No affiliation with theDuggards, just an X member yes
(37:41):
and then Bill got there.
It is the last person that isbrought up in the show, yes, but
the most important Bill gotthere is the founder of the
Institute or IVLP, so a Realshithead real shit head.
He is Basically like just toursthe world or I don't know world,
(38:07):
but country at least yeahtowards the country, giving
talks on principles of his, hislife's teachings, and his target
audience is definitely Churchalready church going people, and
(38:27):
it seems that he's finding themost success in Recruiting and
I'm going to use that term veryspecifically because that's what
it is and recruitingindividuals To his teachings
that are coming from moreradical religions.
So this is something that wetouch on here and there, but
(38:53):
there are certain religions thatyou see Colts come out of more
than others or not.
I shouldn't say religionsnecessarily, I don't know how
you want to phrase that butDenominations.
I guess there are certaindenominations that have a very
high Correlation of like thiscult came from axe Denomination
(39:14):
and where you'll see frequentties back to certain ones.
So he's definitely targetingsome of these more extremist
denominations as like almost agateway drug into his even more
radical and extreme teachings.
And I think we see that a lotin a lot of places and I just
kind of want to point that out,that this isn't something that's
(39:34):
specific to Bill gothard.
Like, if you look up othercults, this is very common for
them to come from like Mormonismand other religions like that.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Yeah.
So a fun fact about Billgothard, which I'm sure you
caught too, is that hit theoriginal Religion he was raised
in is based off of like it'scalled like, gideonism.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yes, and that's where all those Bible games
association.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yeah, that makes the Gideon Bibles.
His dad started that.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Yes, and so everybody that has ever walked into a
hotel, and you have a Bible inthe drawer.
Direct tie to Bill got that isa direct tie to Bill gothard.
They were the ones that madethat happen.
Yeah, I get Ian's associationYep.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Yeah, so I thought that was pretty crazy.
Another thing that they saidwhich I found very similar to
how the church I grew up and wasstarted, is that Bill gothard
started this, the IVLP, aroundthe same time in the 60s and 70s
, which in the world was whenthere was like the civil rights
movement and the women's rightsmovement, yeah, and so he
(40:38):
started this to kind of comestudent protesting right to
combat that freedom right, andthat was exactly how the church
I grew up and started, the sameexact timeframe for the same
exact reasons.
Yeah, hold those hippies in andshow them like I can give you
like the path where you're gonnahave the perfect family the way
(40:59):
it fits.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
It was very much a time where I felt like people
were looking for answers.
Right, and that might soundsilly nowadays, because we think
about where we're at today andthis is like almost like I think
I've said this so many times onthe podcast like we're in the
age of information.
Right, like any information youwant is quite literally at your
fingertips.
Like you carry a tiny tinycomputer around in your pocket
(41:21):
every day.
You can Google everything.
Right, and there's good and badwith that.
Like that means any idiot getsto have a platform.
Right, like anybody can postanything on the internet.
So you need to be like somewhataware of what you're reading
and have some generals commonsense or want to Validate things
.
Right, yeah but overall, likethis is the age of information.
(41:42):
Like you can find anything youwant about Anything, like you
could.
You could go down a rabbit holefor hours on one topic.
Back then you get nothing therewas none of that you had the
news which was it's clearpropaganda Right like the news,
the news station is gonna tellyou what they want to tell you
and exactly how they want toportray it.
Right, newspapers, same thing.
(42:04):
So, like news outlets, they'resupposed to be unbiased, but
like we know that that's not thecase.
Everybody leans one way or theother.
Like you hope that people areat least generally being
truthful, but these are theoutlets you have.
And then otherwise, like, whereare you getting your
information other than talkingabout things within your circle?
But then who's validating that?
(42:24):
Yeah, so this guy rolls up andsays I've got all the answers.
That's not the way.
I have the way.
Yeah, and these people areliving in a time of, like, great
uncertainty.
And he prays on that.
Yep, I wrote down some more,bill Gother facts.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
Let me, let me find it in my notes.
I, yeah, I literally wrote he.
He said we have the answer toconquer every problem you have.
That was one thing he actuallysaid that they quoted in in this
first episode, which I was likeit's just like the, the worm on
(43:05):
the hook to like reel in thesepeople, and they called it
prosperity gospel.
I don't know if you caught thatsaying too.
So basically what he was doingwas like I'm going to give you
all the keys to success.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
So that's what he called prosperity gospel and
they promise prosperity andsuccess.
Yeah, and I wrote him down.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
I wrote all his seven life principles, oh the key
success oh, I sure did it was.
One is design, mm hmm.
Two is authority, three isresponsibility For his ownership
, five is suffering, six isfreedom and seven is success.
So I would be interested tofind out, like breaking down
(43:48):
each one of those like, becauseI haven't dug deep enough into,
like what he has to say abouteach of those I can gather my
own opinion on.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Yeah, design for sure is the umbrella of protection,
which which I want to talk aboutin this episode, because they
they like bring that up and I dothink that they go more into it
later on, but they, they justkind of really just kind of
flash out that by on the screen.
But I think talking about thatnow my better I even drew a
diagram.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
I drew a diagram.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Okay, oh, I sure did.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
I sure did.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
But I can't test the design.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
The design principle is going to be the umbrella
protection Authority also fallsunder that same design because
everything's about authority,Like I think he literally even
says it in there about authority.
He breaks it down and is likepeople think that they can be on
the same level as thepoliticians.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Yes, he specifically says like we have a problem with
authority right now, like wethink, like children want to be
equal to the parent, and hestarts talking about this and he
like, really like brainwashing,like flips it and said God has
not designed authority in thatmanner.
Right, and he starts to say,like there is authority, but you
(45:08):
need to respect the chain ofauthority authority yes, and if
you stay in the umbrella diagram.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Satan can't get you.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
And literally outside of your umbrella like pointing
outside of the yes, if you areoutside of your umbrella, you
are exposing yourself to thedangers of Satan.
Basically is what they say Likeif you don't stay under your
umbrella, imagine the rain asSatan's little influencers.
I guess, like that's prettymuch what they're saying.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Yeah, so the umbrella goes.
There's the umbrella, the top.
The top is God.
The next is your pastor Under.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
That is the husband, and also let's say in Bill and
Bill Gothard's world, it's God,god, bill got gothard yeah
pastor yeah.
Husband wife, children and mindyou like.
If you watch the show, you'llsee the diagram and maybe we'll
post the diagram too foreverybody.
But imagine that each umbrellagets smaller and smaller.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
As you go down.
Those are your rights right.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Those are your rights going as you go down.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Yeah, so I also put a little side note about this
umbrella comment, which Ibelieve I stated this in a
previous episode, but I'm goingto reiterate it during this
umbrella topic that when I left,my dad literally said to me I
hope bad things happen to you sothat you realize that you are
(46:35):
not under the protection of Godanymore.
And that's essentially what hewas referring to 100% because,
how I grew up, they also believein that same umbrella of
protection, that same like God,pastor, husband, wife, children.
So I found that very like.
It was very triggering.
But you know also like oh, Isee you like yeah, I see what
(46:56):
you're doing here.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
I see this bullshit.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Yep, oh look, I even wrote people not equal to the
government, people not equalwith pastors, that's.
That's what they were saying.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
Yeah, so those are all like the main players.
Okay okay, so okay, we're back.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
And we're back without producer Jen this week.
Producer Jen is out of town outof the country in Korea.
She's in Korea, which is verycool.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
It is very cool.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Here we are having to press our own record buttons.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
There's no cute little commentating.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
No on the side.
It's a sad day.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
It is a sad day.
No really good pictures.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Nobody here to capture my six chins as I lounge
, because I don't have to worryabout it.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah exactly, or my bad posture.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Although that's not true, because you just put me on
blast to everyone on InstagramStory you do not have six change
.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
You have one in that video and a half maybe yeah, I
think my phone was in the way.
Yeah, you're welcome, I Well.
I mean, it's been a minutesince we recorded.
Yeah, a lot of things have goneon in life, though.
Yeah so we apologize, but lifehappens you're on vacation.
(01:09):
Piper had 17,000 little leaguegames.
Jen was working a lot.
Yeah, we had to pull deckboards.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yeah, sometimes you find that you know People are
lazy and there's entire bouldersin your house, demolish a
concrete porch and then justdecide to build a wood porch
over top of it instead of doingthings the right way.
And yeah, then the concreteslabs lean into your foundation
of your house and almost takeout a wall.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, is what it is.
Yeah, we were busy, but we'reback.
We did do a live saying that wewere gonna talk about this
documentary, which hopefullythis gave people plenty of time
to watch it.
Yeah, so this is your spoileralert spoiler alert.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yes, episode focuses on Our podcast.
Episode is focusing on episodeone, and only episode one, of
shiny happy people Yep, which isa free series that got released
recently on Amazon Prime,correct, and the.
(02:15):
I think I would call it the hookinto the show, because it's
really not about them, but theylike cleverly use them as a way
to get people to be like oh, Iremember that I'm gonna watch
the show is if you were growingup and remember there was like
18 different variations of theshow but like I think the last
one was 19 kids and counting.
Yeah, obviously at some pointit was 18 and 17 and 14 with the
(02:39):
Duggar family, which I Rememberthem.
I didn't watch the show when Iwas younger but I remember that
show existing and I rememberpeople.
It was like a clever popculture reference.
Like you know, if the Duggarfamily can do it with 18 kids,
like you could do it with twokind of right.
So they are definitely the hookinto the show, but the show is
(03:06):
actually more about theInstitute and Bill gothard.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Yeah, which is crazy because I think we touched on
this a little bit in the live isso many people sent me Like a
link to this series to be likeyou need to watch this, you need
to watch this, and I'm like,why do I need to watch about 19
kids and counting?
Then I started watching it andI was like in complete and utter
shock that this like religionthat they were involved in was
(03:32):
so like hand-in-hand.
How I grew up like I was justbaffled that I was just a little
bit more like I was justbaffled that I didn't know this
before, right.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I had that same reaction because you know 19
kids accounting was like a bitof a phenomenon, if you will.
It was, like we said, like Isaid, like huge pop culture
reference.
I think At the time that thatshow became popular was just
when, like mainstream media wasrealizing what like reality,
(04:01):
reality TV could be, and youknow they mentioned it actually
in the first episode but it's alow-cost Production of a show
that people were just enamoredwith, like you think about back
then.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
I mean that has to be around the time, like the real
world started to become a thingand all of that, the housewives
like all that.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
So you know the they came in at just the right time
where all that stuff wasbecoming popular, I think.
And, and yeah, so you know, Ithink that was something that
back then, like if you askedanybody that was a bit older,
like I'm not even that old, youknow, I was young when that show
was out, like probably insingle digits even, yeah, and I
(04:48):
still remember it right.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
So, like people older than me, certainly remember it,
oh yeah yeah, and I mean, ifyou think about it too like this
kind of crossed my mind when Iwas reviewing everything this
morning.
So TLC is the channel that putit out right and probably 90% of
those shows are geared towardslike the demographic of women or
like younger you know, I don'tknow like teen and up women.
(05:14):
So like this show had to havebeen mostly watched by like
women.
Like I couldn't see like my dadsitting down and watching that
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Like and TLC always had those like very.
It's funny because I think thatTLC elected to do the show with
them because they were alwaysthis network that did like
series like that on, likeoddities, and they saw them as
an oddity with, you know, 14kids or whatever it was when it
first started.
(05:45):
And then it just became thisthing that people stopped seeing
as an oddity, which is reallyweird.
They almost started to see themas this, like perfect Christian
family, as opposed to sayinglike hey, the rest of this
network picks up things that arejust strange.
Yeah, like they literally havea show called my Strange
(06:05):
Addiction that they air.
They have all kinds likebridezillas.
Like they're not airing thingsthat they're like trying to get
people to watch because they'relike we want you to be better,
so let me show you this likeperfect example of how to run
your family.
Like they obviously picked thisas a show to have because it
was shocking and they thought itwould gravitate an audience.
(06:28):
But that's not how we look at it.
I mean that's not.
I mean that's how we look at it.
That's not how a lot of peoplewill look at it.
A lot of people look at it andare, oh my God, look at how
organized they are for havingthat many kids and look at what
wonderful parents they are.
All the kids are so wellbehaved.
Blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
But gag, yeah, we'll go behind the scenes on all of
those.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yes, so yeah, so what the show is actually about, as
I mentioned, is a cult, like Ithink it's fair to call it that
called the Institute.
And its founder's name is BillGothard.
And so they spend the firstepisode.
Definitely there are members ofthe Duggar family that are
(07:12):
happy participants in the show,as well as ex-institute members,
and really the show is actuallyabout this cult, but they use
the Duggars as like a familiarpop culture reference for
everyone, which is amazing.
Yes, actually I think that it'sreally great because you said
(07:32):
this already.
I mean, I said this Watchingthat show that's not what you
associated it with.
That's somebody that didn'tcome from that place.
But I think that in the futureepisodes there are some of those
people that are ex-institutemembers that say like I watch
that show and I immediatelycouldn't watch it because I knew
what was going on there.
(07:53):
So it's like four people thatare recovering or have left
their experiences there.
It was immediately identifiablefor them, but not to
necessarily the common eye,which I think is a little
dangerous, because you watchthat and you see all these parts
that you think are good, nothow they're getting there with
(08:15):
them, and I think that that'svery dangerous.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
And I think one girl in the show at one point on the
first episode called itEvangelical Propaganda,
fundamentalist Propaganda, yepwhich I think is very, very fair
to title it that, Because it'salmost like how they sink their
hooks into you in a religionperiod.
(08:39):
They show you something likeyou could have this great
organized life with childrenthat behave and the doting wife
and the masculine husband whoworks and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
None of them are masculine.
They all look the same yeahshort tail.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Nirty round glasses Right, like beating their wives
and their children hate them.
But we'll get into that too.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
So I think, to start, maybe we'll talk about the
people that were involved inepisode one and just give
backgrounds on all of thesepeople, because it's one thing
that you and I were talkingabout when you first got here,
because I also rewatched theepisode this morning just to
make sure it was fresh, and Iknow you did the same.
There are a lot of people thatthey put on the show and I think
it's easy to perceive them asheroes because they're brave.
(09:29):
Quote unquote, which I mean Idon't want to take away from
that.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Right, like I do think they're just speaking up.
Yes, I do think there's more tothe story.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yes, I do think it takes a lot to be the face and
tell the truth, but I also don'twant to get lost and twisted
here that not all of thesepeople are good people still.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
No, but like obviously they might be saying
and letting their voices beheard.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
But there are still some of these people on here
that and some that aren't, butsome that are just like.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
They're still shitheads and don't lose sight
of that and I'm sure they gotpaid to be on the show.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Handsomely, I'm sure.
Well, I mean depending on howwell the show did, which Right,
which is done very well, yeah,so yeah, go through your list,
nicole.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Ok, nicole and her lists.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yes, so we have Jim Bob Jim.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Bob.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
And his wife, Michelle Yep, who are the
parents, the Duggers and theTeen Kids and Counting.
So, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar.
Jill Duggar who I believe islike the third or fourth kid
yeah.
Yeah, so she's one of thechildren from 19 Kids and
Counting who was interviewed onthe show with her husband.
(10:43):
I didn't write her husband'sname down, but he's in there as
well.
Amy Duggar Well, they're notDuggers anymore, right?
Amy, who is the cousin of allthe children on the show.
So Jim Bob's sister, whose nameis Deanna, who also interviews
on the show, her child, amy, ison the show and gives interviews
(11:09):
, and Amy is not brought up inthe same way as the correct the
other children.
I have some good notes on that.
Okay, so do we?
I mean, do you want, should westop and talk about each one
(11:31):
individually as we talk about?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
them.
I mean, we can yeah, okay, solet's start with Jim, bob and
Michelle let's start with Jim,bob and Michelle.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Okay, so what?
I know that you have likedetailed information on all of
these things?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, so Jim Bob and his sister Deanna.
Yes, we're raised like Baptist,right.
Was it like missionary Baptist.
Well, let me get.
Let me get to that page notes.
People can hear us likeflipping.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, that's fine, as we do this, I have like six
pages here.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
This just shows our dedication.
Yeah, sure does.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Make sure you flip it close to the microphone so
people believe us.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Okay, there you go.
It's a little what ASMR.
Yeah, there you go, you'rewelcome, free therapy.
So, yeah, they were raisedmissionary Baptist, which?
So if we rewind to things thatwe've talked about about the
church I grew up in, they saythat they're non quote, unquote,
non-denominational, which isjust a fancy way of saying we
(12:27):
don't want to put a title on itbecause these other people have
titles and bad people or thingsthat bad things have been said
about these titles.
But it's literally this.
Yeah, because she mentions thatwhen they grew up, they had no
dances at school, which we knowis check, I did not have any
dances at school.
They were not allowed to wearjeans.
Remember, check, I was notallowed to wear jeans.
(12:48):
They didn't have things likecheerleading, which I found very
interesting that they grew upwhere they didn't have
cheerleading or they couldn't becheerleaders.
But Jim Bob saw Michellecheerleading and was like, oh, I
need to date that.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
I also find it interesting that, of all sports,
that that's going to be the onethat they target, that they're
not allowed to do, because whatdoes a cheerleader do?
Like wear short skirts, andWell, I mean, I guess I've been
the short skirt part, but yousit on the sideline and cheer on
the men.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Yeah, like it's your soul role, right.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
I mean there's going to be somebody that gets to find
it out there.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
I acknowledge the immense amount of athleticism
that is required to be acheerleader.
Right.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
And, like now, you have cheer competitions and
whatever else, that was not likethat.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
That was not like that, correct.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
So, please, if you are a cheerleader, I absolutely
would break every limb in mybody if I attempted to do any of
that.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Right.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
This is not me like poo pooing and cheerleading.
Okay, but back then.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
And then it was not like that.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
You showed up at the football games and cheered on
all the men and, you know, acteddainty and whatever else so
like I am a bit surprised thatlike Fact that they were not
allowed to participate in that,so that was like one thing where
I was like, oh, okay, so theywere raised.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
very much.
You cannot cheerlead.
But Jim Bob immediately wentand found a cheerleader who, he
like, shared the word of Godwith and she got down on her
hands and knees and accepted yougot into her like whatever the
hell it was, yeah, whatever thatmeant, but I also I don't know
if you caught this, but I thinkit was Jill said that they got
(14:28):
married at 17 and 19.
Yes, and how old were they whenthey first met and how long did
they date?
Because that's super young, 17is so young.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Yeah, but like that for them in those communities,
like that's not young for them.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
They start promising each other to be married, like
when you're like young teens,yeah, so whatever.
Yeah, I mean I'm less surprisedby that nowadays, because I
mean yeah even look at um, whatdo you want to call it?
The Mormon religions, likethose kids have, like three kids
.
Those kids have kids, yeah.
By the time they're 20.
(15:05):
Yeah, 21.
Yeah, that's gross, but sure.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yep, so that's.
That's a little background onJim, bob and Michelle.
They don't really talk too muchabout Michelle other than she
was a cheerleader.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, which is hilarious too.
I noticed that throughout thewhole first episode, like she's
barely the entire series.
They don't really talk muchabout her background, which
makes me wonder thinking backlike I don't want, I don't have
time for this, but like if Iwere to go back and watch 19
kids and counting.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
It makes me wonder how often she would even be on
that show other than to likesupport something that.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Oh, I'm sure that's how.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Because you watch this, you watch this episode and
the only time she's sayinganything is to reinforce what
he's saying, the teachings thathe's saying, or whatever he's
putting out there.
So yeah, um.
So the second one was Jill JillDuggar, who's now Dillard
Dillard, okay.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
You remember that fan ?
Yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
That was photographic memory.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, yeah, high five .
Speaker 1 (16:08):
So there are things about her.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
I'm not going to say quite yet, yeah, cause it's
going to get coming.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Yeah, but she is, like I said, I think like the
fourth kid or something.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I think she's like this.
They had twins first yeah andthen they were.
Josh, then twins, then her.
I think Josh's first.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
So then there's twins and then her or something like
that.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, she had to be like the fourth, so she's yes.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
So she has chosen to be interviewed on the show which
, like I want to say up front,throughout all of the episodes,
obviously Jim, bob and Michellerefused to partake in the making
of the show.
So um, her choosing to be onthis show is obviously against
the wishes oh yeah, and herparticipation is against the
(16:55):
wishes of her parents.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, I mean and they will get into that more I mean
she.
I don't think she associates atall with her family.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
It doesn't appear to be that way.
Yes, it doesn't appear to bethat way.
I don't know if, like maybesome of the siblings she talks
to, though.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
It's yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
I feel like that's possible, but like parents, yeah
, anything else you have on her.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Um, not really.
I mean, that's kind of like herbackground.
I mean, obviously we'll talkabout more about things that
happened, or she said, yeah,also, side note, her husband,
which we can't remember his name, um is a piece of shit Really.
Oh, big time, like they makehim seem like very supportive
(17:36):
and you know great Like he's.
You know he's keeping hersecrets and blah, blah, blah.
But he literally like makesvery, very um homophobic
comments on, like his internetpages.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Oh yeah, Cause a lot of the kids have YouTube pages
and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
So like that was like one thing where I was like dude
, he like like comes off on here.
Like you know, jill and Ihelped Jill get out of this
horrible family, but he'sactually a piece of shit.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Oh yeah, big surprise , um and then I'm going to lump
Amy and Deanna together.
So Deanna is Jim Bob sister,like we said.
Um, they, as, as mentioned,grew up missionary Baptist.
Deanna takes the fact that shewas not allowed to wear skirts
(18:23):
or, I'm sorry, where there is adeer, like literally right
behind you.
Baby Two of them.
Little babies, the babies.
Yeah, we got.
We got two little baby deer inthe neighborhood.
Um, that roam around our housebecause Autumn was so kind as to
um feed them carrots last year.
Uh, after, was it so cute?
(18:43):
Yeah, is it so cute whenthey're shitting on my lawn and
it's good for a laser Okay.
Um, okay, yeah, so Deanna andAmy.
Um, so Deanna grows upmissionary Baptist as well, all
the things that crush mentioned,like not allowed to do
cheerleading, not allowed towear pants Um, all of that grows
up in that very strict religionand explicitly states that.
(19:05):
They explicitly states thatthat's not what she wanted for
her child, so she was going tolet her kid do those things.
Like Amy, the daughter mentionshaving a boyfriend as early as
eight and, you know, being ableto go to school dances and, you
know, be a cheerleader and dothe things that she wanted to do
(19:25):
.
And then starts to talk about,like, growing up and because she
was on the TV show, yeah, Withthe cousins.
So clips that they show wherethe cousins are, like yeah,
amy's a little different than us, but we do still, of course,
love her.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Like because Amy was living this life.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
That, like, the kids are like oh, a normal life, yes,
a normal life, yes, but not tothem.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Not to them.
You know she's, she's beingpromiscuous and whatever else,
and you could see like from suchan early age, because these are
.
These clips are from childrenthat are in single digits, yeah,
and they're like they'repraying for her soul.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
They're praying for her soul.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
They're passing judgment at such an early age
and, like I actually talked withAutumn about this recently,
asked her a question Like do youthink judgment and hate is a
learned behavior or somethingthat's you know, or is it frog
segueırd, how inherently grownwithin you?
Like something that you're bornwith that like fosters and
(20:28):
grows over time.
And she's that taught Like shebelieves that it's taught and
like that is just a primeexample of something that a kid
is not judgmental by nature.
That is a learned behavior.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
I actually I think I wrote up like a quote down oh, I
did too at the end.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Like monsters are created.
Yes, I wrote that down too.
Yep, yep, yep, we'll get intothat, we'll get into that.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
But I do have some more Amy comments.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
So there was a couple of things she said that hit
close to home, like cause I'mtrying to like pull the
similarities from how I grew up,like what I'm seeing in here,
and like one of the things shesaid is like they didn't have a
radio, like they weren't allowedto listen to the radio.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
That was like another big.
Thing.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I had TV, but it was very strictly like only certain.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Are you talking about you or what she said?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Both Like they didn't have a TV Like I could watch,
but not like it was very likeyou could watch only a few shows
.
The other thing she said isthey she could have posters of
boys on the wall, like she waslike, oh, I had Jonathan, taylor
, thomas, and like none of thegirls or cousins could have that
, and that was like one likething I always I don't know if
(21:39):
we talked about this already,but how I wasn't allowed to like
have any posters on like ofboys on my wall, so like I would
cut little magazine picturesand tape them underneath my
nightstand so that, like when Ilaid down at night, I could like
see them taped under there, butlike if my parents came in my
room, they couldn't see it.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
So did you ever get caught?
No, well done.
Yes, thank you.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Thank you.
So yeah, I had like little MarkMcGrath, mark McGrath.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
You might've just blown every fucking kid in,
though, dude, probably Everyparent's gonna go in their room
and check their kids on theirside, on their nightstand.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah.
So that was like something thatI was like, oh, I relate to
that.
And another thing about thatwhole like judgy cousin
perspective.
So when I was growing up I wasnot really allowed to like hang
out with my cousins like very,very frequent, but without my
parents, right.
(22:35):
So there was this one time that, the first and only time I was
allowed to spend the night at mygrandparents house with my
cousin, I was probably 16 or 17.
And she took me to a houseparty because she had an older
boyfriend.
And let me tell you I walkedinto that house how old were you
(22:56):
.
I was like 16 or so.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
I think I was like 17 .
Speaker 2 (22:58):
At this point I might even have been, like, just
graduated high school, but I wasolder, right so, and it wasn't
skinny Atlas, because that'swhere my family's from, and I
walked into this giant likehouse with that's where our
wedding is.
Fun, fact, fun fact.
I walked into this giant houseand literally I like it when you
(23:21):
call me big pup, but wasplaying like blasting on-.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
What an epic walk-up song.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yeah, dude, I literally walked in and it was
like ah, look at when you callme big pup.
But and then like I was juststanding there, literally again,
I've never seen a house partybefore.
Obviously I don't drink, solike zero idea of what was going
on.
My cousin just disappears withher boyfriend and I'm just by
myself in social shock of thishouse party and sensory overload
(23:48):
also, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
And then I had you ever even heard that song before
?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
that no, Right, okay.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
And now I mean I'm just saying it's like one of my
favorite songs and anyone whoknows that that song was like
very popular, so like two havenever heard it.
I feel like I'm being a 16, 17year old kid.
That's wild, that just showslike how much censorship that
you were experiencing.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
And I went home and literally the amount of guilt I
had about, a going to a houseparty, b letting my cousin go
off by herself with a boy Godonly knows what they were doing.
But I'm sure there wasn't roomfor Jesus and, like I, like
guilted myself over this forseveral days and I was convinced
(24:30):
that my parents were gonna findout.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
And like I was, a hundred percent going to hell.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
No, I don't think so.
Okay, so I just did.
Dad, if you're listening, Iwent to a house party, sorry.
Biggie Smalls, yeah.
So that was like I was like Ifeel like Amy was my cousin.
Yeah, okay, trying to get me togo to house parties and I was
like, oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Which is so crazy that you're gonna watch the show
and then you're gonna likeidentify literally somebody in
your life that you're like, okay, like, this person is my Amy.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Like that's how paralleled your experience was.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
And I had another huge like bomb dropped in my
head about this one too, whichsometimes I am like looking back
at my life and being like, wasthis a personal issue?
Or like, where did this comefrom?
So Amy mentions that none ofher cousins are allowed to wear
(25:23):
shorts.
I don't know if you caught that.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Amy and who.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Amy says none of her cousins are allowed to wear
shorts.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Oh, yes, I did catch that.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
So I literally didn't wear shorts in public until
like 2014.
And I don't know, like where,like part of me is like where
did that come from?
Like, is it because we wereliterally, like, taught we were
not allowed to wear?
Like?
The only time I ever woreshorts was like in the summer,
at our private church camp orlike at gym class, especially as
(25:54):
, like a teenager like I didn'twear shorts in public.
I didn't wear anything above myknee.
So even after I left the church, which was in 2001, it took me
13 or 14 years to ever wearshorts in public.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
That's wild.
Yeah, here I am today.
What was that?
What were you going throughLike?
Do you remember what it waslike the first time that you did
it?
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, like I remember saying, this is the first time
I'm wearing shorts in public.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Were you still wearing dresses in public at
that point, or you were justwearing pants at?
Speaker 2 (26:28):
least no, I would wear pants yeah.
Okay so even if it was 95 out,I would still be wearing pants.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
So then the first time you wear shorts, like
what's going through your head,like are you having a pep talk
yourself?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Oh yeah definitely pep talk myself.
I still kind of feel that way.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Really.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Like I have to like pep talk myself to put shorts on
and I don't know, like where,like I'm obviously nowhere that
comes from, but like it's crazythat it's still like inherent in
my life.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yeah, that you even have the thought.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Right.
Like is this too immodest?
Like am I showing too much skin?
Like?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
You got all them tattoos, girl.
I know, would you get them offor show them off Exactly?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
exactly, but it's crazy that that mentality will
still creep up like in me thatlike, oh, my shorts are too
short, like I'm showing too muchskin, and da da, da, da da.
What are people gonna think?
And then I remind myself likeyou, a bad bitch, don't care.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
You know, right.
Do you know what's funny aboutthe posters thing?
This is just like a personalfunny story.
So I obviously was allowed tohave posters on my wall of boys
as a child.
Do you know the one boy I choseto hang on on?
Lance Bass?
Oh my God, that's when thewhole world should have known.
Not JT, no, not.
You know some Backstreet Boyswho was the?
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Nick Carter yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
You know none of the like typical heart throbs, like
no.
I managed to pick the one guythat was a raging homosexual
that came out later as ahomosexual, like good for me,
everyone should have known yeah,yeah, just a signed picture of
him on my wall, yep.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
The only one I can love it.
Yeah, I love it I love it, Ilove it.
It's hilarious Anyway the Holtz, which this one I'm very
excited to talk about.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
I'm so excited about this one so the Holtz are Jim
Bob's old best friends.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
They knew each other as kids, right yes, High school.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
So this is confusing because the husband's name is
also Jim.
I never caught the wife's name.
Do you know the wife's name?
Nope, she only says like sixwords.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Wifey.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah, so they were childhood best friends.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yes, and he comes on the show Jim Bob and Jim Holtz.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yes, jim Holtz is presented in a way that makes
you want to think that he's thevoice of like, reason and
morality in the situation.
But this is what I'm talkingabout, where I want to back up a
minute here Because they slidein like real quick, like I had
(28:57):
to rewind and be like did I justhear what?
I think I heard?
He mentions in his introductionthat how him, he and his wife
met was that he went on a blinddate that was set up for him
with her, and he was 19 yearsold and she was 14.
She was very developed.
(29:18):
He said One, four and referredto her as very developed.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
I didn't know she was very developed.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Yes, and then says like but you know, like, we all
get married young in Arkansas orwherever they're from, and then
she's not like oh yeah.
And then makes a joke like andwe're related, ha ha ha, just
kidding.
And it's just like, and that'sit, and that's it.
And then they move on from that.
So like not cool, no right.
You could make the argumentlike I'm sure somebody out there
is like, well, if that's howthey were brought up, like is
(29:46):
that really his fault?
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yes, kind of thing it is.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
But also like, yeah, I still think it's kind of your
fault, like I'm not an excuseperson of like you know, you
can't have it both ways.
Either people have free will tomake their own decisions Like
that's that's why you say that,like in religion, like you have
sin and all those things,because people always say, well,
like, if God exists, why areyou to bad things happen and
(30:10):
people are like oh well, youknow, you still have the freedom
of choice to do whatever.
So, like you can't have yourcake and eat it too, so you also
have a choice to not subscribeto the fact that it's cool that
you marry a 14 year old kid.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Just because she's, just because she did Right.
And then the fun fact I have myJim Holt note says Jim Holt
dash, and then in red andunderlined M, f and asshole is
what I have written next day.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Okay, can you give us some more background there?
Okay, so.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Jim holds obviously was Jim Bob's best friend, right
?
Speaker 1 (30:43):
I don't know how in depth you want me to drop into
this drop what you want to drop,because I don't think there's
really going to be another spaceto.
Because they make him seem likea hero the whole time, at least
in the first episode.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
We know in the first episode they start talking about
which we might be skippingahead a little bit, but it's
going to go well into the JimHolt era that Josh.
Obviously everybody knows Joshis a pedophile, right yeah.
So they start talking about howJim, bob and Michelle like came
(31:16):
and told them that Josh was hadhad molested some kids right
Growing up.
They talk about that.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Right, and they say and some of them were his
sisters.
Right so now that we're sayingthis, like that is why Jill is
on the show.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Right, she was one of them, so they came and told Jim
Holt and his wife that Josh hadbeen molesting people in the
family and at that time JimHolt's daughter, Kaylee.
Kaylee was dating Josh and theysaid they weren't going to tell
Kaylee or the parents untilafter they were married because
(31:54):
they were hoping that that wouldfix him.
Which is ridiculous sanity,because marriage doesn't fix the
child molester.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Right.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
And they think it's going to probably make it even
worse.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Well, what you go?
Get to have children and thencontinue to be a child molester.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
But they also say dates.
They said oh, it was 2003 whenJim Bob came to us and told us
that Josh was doing this or haddone this, but it was 2008 when
19 kids and counting was put onTV.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Right.
So that's five years of themknowing I did not actually catch
until this last time that I waswatching it as I was taking
notes, just because I think Iwas more engaged watching it.
Yeah, these allegations cameout in the public prior to
choosing to allow them to be atelevision sensation.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Five years, five years.
And then Jim Holt and his wifeand family choose to be on the
television show to support allof this, knowing those
allegations?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
So they absolutely come on the show trying to have
this like revisionist, likehistory type of attitude and you
know I'm going to put a littlebit of this on the producers of
the show.
They kind of allow them toalmost be in a redemption story,
I feel like when really likewhat, what entitles them to that
(33:24):
Right Right, like like you kindof brushed over that fact
because I missed it when Iwatched it at first and you're
just like not reallyhighlighting like all of these
people's like complicitattitudes in this situation.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
So to dig in deeper to Jim Holt yeah, so he knew
about Josh still at the TV show.
Be the whole 14 year old wife.
He also ran side by side inpolitics with Jim Bob.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
And they had very similar platforms.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Right, which was also well after the allegations came
out.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Oh yeah, I mean Jim Bob literally ran like the day
after like major allegationscame out about Josh.
So that also to me is completeinsanity.
But recently Jim Holt's wifehas put a restraining order out
on him.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
No kidding.
Like within the last month.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Wow, and it said like he's been physically abusive
him and because they have like11 kids.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yes, so he, like he, when he was being interviewed
and introducing himself and hewas like and we have two kids,
once on one daughter, and thenthe wife like kind of looked at
him and then I think she's theone that says we have 11
children.
Yeah, and I don't know if, like, it was supposed to be a joke,
because obviously his sense ofhumor is odd right like, because
(34:54):
it's almost like he knows allthis stuff is real shitty shitty
and and Abnormal and notsocially acceptable, to say the
least, because he cracks jokesabout what should be a typical
answer right, regularly andthroughout the show.
Yeah, and like I don't thinkthey were gonna actually let him
get away with saying he onlyhad two kids.
(35:16):
But it's just the point thatyou, like you think that joke is
funny.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Well, now there's a restraining order.
That's interesting yeah and Ithink it's.
It must be one of the youngerchildren.
Mm-hmm, she has the youngerchildren, so there's like a
restraining order against himwith, like her and the child.
Okay, so I was like that's whyI put MF an asshole, because
this guy's an asshole and hecomes off in this TV show.
Like I finally told Jim Bob, hehad to turn Josh in.
(35:43):
Yeah, okay, you told him toturn him in and then you
literally did the show with themfor like years and then ran
like side-by-side, like for manyand I'd be interested to know
at all.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
I would be interested to know like what impact that
was on, like the relationshipwith the daughter because, like
Josh went up to the parents andsaid I'd like to court your
daughter for the purposes ofmarriage, which gag is estate
1800s or right.
Um, so I I'm curious, likeafter they found that out, did
they just continue to let theirdaughter date him, like he
(36:16):
obviously didn't marry her right?
Then they very quickly aftershow, like his wife's name was
like Anna or whatever, but Imean I can't imagine that they
cut that off immediately.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I know because okay, so do we want to dig into the
whole Jim Bob and Jim Holt Likesituation of?
Jim Holt said to Jim Bob likeso Jim Bob Was in political
office at the time and he hadjust put a bill forward, just
hang on, so he was, so he wasOkay.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Before we get to that , before we get to that, okay,
so we have, because that'll,that's like a whole rabbit hole.
We're gonna miss these othertwo people and oh yeah, I'm
gonna play.
One of them is the mostimportant person of all, okay,
so there's another person thatcomes on towards the end that's
very involved in future episodes, called Brooke Arnold Yep.
Brooke is an X Institute member.
(37:12):
I blp I blp member, which I blpis probably what we're gonna
say.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yeah, it's a lot, it's a mouthful.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah, it stands for Insta I have a gun down
somewhere.
Yeah, institute and basic lifeprinciples what it stands for.
So I blp um.
She's an X member of that, soshe's coming on.
No affiliation with theDuggards, just an X member yes
(37:41):
and then Bill got there.
It is the last person that isbrought up in the show, yes, but
the most important Bill gotthere is the founder of the
Institute or IVLP, so a Realshithead real shit head.
He is Basically like just toursthe world or I don't know world,
(38:07):
but country at least yeahtowards the country, giving
talks on principles of his, hislife's teachings, and his target
audience is definitely Churchalready church going people, and
(38:27):
it seems that he's finding themost success in Recruiting and
I'm going to use that term veryspecifically because that's what
it is and recruitingindividuals To his teachings
that are coming from moreradical religions.
So this is something that wetouch on here and there, but
(38:53):
there are certain religions thatyou see Colts come out of more
than others or not.
I shouldn't say religionsnecessarily, I don't know how
you want to phrase that butDenominations.
I guess there are certaindenominations that have a very
high Correlation of like thiscult came from axe Denomination
(39:14):
and where you'll see frequentties back to certain ones.
So he's definitely targetingsome of these more extremist
denominations as like almost agateway drug into his even more
radical and extreme teachings.
And I think we see that a lotin a lot of places and I just
kind of want to point that out,that this isn't something that's
(39:34):
specific to Bill gothard.
Like, if you look up othercults, this is very common for
them to come from like Mormonismand other religions like that.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Yeah.
So a fun fact about Billgothard, which I'm sure you
caught too, is that hit theoriginal Religion he was raised
in is based off of like it'scalled like, gideonism.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yes, and that's where all those Bible games
association.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yeah, that makes the Gideon Bibles.
His dad started that.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Yes, and so everybody that has ever walked into a
hotel, and you have a Bible inthe drawer.
Direct tie to Bill got that isa direct tie to Bill gothard.
They were the ones that madethat happen.
Yeah, I get Ian's associationYep.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Yeah, so I thought that was pretty crazy.
Another thing that they saidwhich I found very similar to
how the church I grew up and wasstarted, is that Bill gothard
started this, the IVLP, aroundthe same time in the 60s and 70s
, which in the world was whenthere was like the civil rights
movement and the women's rightsmovement, yeah, and so he
(40:38):
started this to kind of comestudent protesting right to
combat that freedom right, andthat was exactly how the church
I grew up and started, the sameexact timeframe for the same
exact reasons.
Yeah, hold those hippies in andshow them like I can give you
like the path where you're gonnahave the perfect family the way
(40:59):
it fits.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
It was very much a time where I felt like people
were looking for answers.
Right, and that might soundsilly nowadays, because we think
about where we're at today andthis is like almost like I think
I've said this so many times onthe podcast like we're in the
age of information.
Right, like any information youwant is quite literally at your
fingertips.
Like you carry a tiny tinycomputer around in your pocket
(41:21):
every day.
You can Google everything.
Right, and there's good and badwith that.
Like that means any idiot getsto have a platform.
Right, like anybody can postanything on the internet.
So you need to be like somewhataware of what you're reading
and have some generals commonsense or want to Validate things
.
Right, yeah but overall, likethis is the age of information.
(41:42):
Like you can find anything youwant about Anything, like you
could.
You could go down a rabbit holefor hours on one topic.
Back then you get nothing therewas none of that you had the
news which was it's clearpropaganda Right like the news,
the news station is gonna tellyou what they want to tell you
and exactly how they want toportray it.
Right, newspapers, same thing.
(42:04):
So, like news outlets, they'resupposed to be unbiased, but
like we know that that's not thecase.
Everybody leans one way or theother.
Like you hope that people areat least generally being
truthful, but these are theoutlets you have.
And then otherwise, like, whereare you getting your
information other than talkingabout things within your circle?
But then who's validating that?
(42:24):
Yeah, so this guy rolls up andsays I've got all the answers.
That's not the way.
I have the way.
Yeah, and these people areliving in a time of, like, great
uncertainty.
And he prays on that.
Yep, I wrote down some more,bill Gother facts.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
Let me, let me find it in my notes.
I, yeah, I literally wrote he.
He said we have the answer toconquer every problem you have.
That was one thing he actuallysaid that they quoted in in this
first episode, which I was likeit's just like the, the worm on
(43:05):
the hook to like reel in thesepeople, and they called it
prosperity gospel.
I don't know if you caught thatsaying too.
So basically what he was doingwas like I'm going to give you
all the keys to success.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
So that's what he called prosperity gospel and
they promise prosperity andsuccess.
Yeah, and I wrote him down.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
I wrote all his seven life principles, oh the key
success oh, I sure did it was.
One is design, mm hmm.
Two is authority, three isresponsibility For his ownership
, five is suffering, six isfreedom and seven is success.
So I would be interested tofind out, like breaking down
(43:48):
each one of those like, becauseI haven't dug deep enough into,
like what he has to say abouteach of those I can gather my
own opinion on.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Yeah, design for sure is the umbrella of protection,
which which I want to talk aboutin this episode, because they
they like bring that up and I dothink that they go more into it
later on, but they, they justkind of really just kind of
flash out that by on the screen.
But I think talking about thatnow my better I even drew a
diagram.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
I drew a diagram.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Okay, oh, I sure did.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
I sure did.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
But I can't test the design.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
The design principle is going to be the umbrella
protection Authority also fallsunder that same design because
everything's about authority,Like I think he literally even
says it in there about authority.
He breaks it down and is likepeople think that they can be on
the same level as thepoliticians.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Yes, he specifically says like we have a problem with
authority right now, like wethink, like children want to be
equal to the parent, and hestarts talking about this and he
like, really like brainwashing,like flips it and said God has
not designed authority in thatmanner.
Right, and he starts to say,like there is authority, but you
(45:08):
need to respect the chain ofauthority authority yes, and if
you stay in the umbrella diagram.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Satan can't get you.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
And literally outside of your umbrella like pointing
outside of the yes, if you areoutside of your umbrella, you
are exposing yourself to thedangers of Satan.
Basically is what they say Likeif you don't stay under your
umbrella, imagine the rain asSatan's little influencers.
I guess, like that's prettymuch what they're saying.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Yeah, so the umbrella goes.
There's the umbrella, the top.
The top is God.
The next is your pastor Under.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
That is the husband, and also let's say in Bill and
Bill Gothard's world, it's God,god, bill got gothard yeah
pastor yeah.
Husband wife, children and mindyou like.
If you watch the show, you'llsee the diagram and maybe we'll
post the diagram too foreverybody.
But imagine that each umbrellagets smaller and smaller.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
As you go down.
Those are your rights right.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Those are your rights going as you go down.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Yeah, so I also put a little side note about this
umbrella comment, which Ibelieve I stated this in a
previous episode, but I'm goingto reiterate it during this
umbrella topic that when I left,my dad literally said to me I
hope bad things happen to you sothat you realize that you are
(46:35):
not under the protection of Godanymore.
And that's essentially what hewas referring to 100% because,
how I grew up, they also believein that same umbrella of
protection, that same like God,pastor, husband, wife, children.
So I found that very like.
It was very triggering.
But you know also like oh, Isee you like yeah, I see what
(46:56):
you're doing here.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
I see this bullshit.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Yep, oh look, I even wrote people not equal to the
government, people not equalwith pastors, that's.
That's what they were saying.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
Yeah, so those are all like the main players.
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