May 17, 2025 • 50 mins
There's room for personal growth in collective liberation—in fact, it's a critical component! Join Dana and her long-time teacher of nearly 13 years, Julia Frodahl, as they lean in and explore where our inner rebels come from, how we can show up for the consciousness revolution, the role of inner work as part of the Great Turning, self-compassion as a practice not a destination, cultivating vision when systems are unraveling, and how the mature rebel is actually the visionary—anchored in deep wisdom while remaining responsive to external realities.
Julia Frodahl's next live online group course on nature-based parts work starts May 25th, learn more & sign up (https://bit.ly/julia-group).
You can also connect with Julia on IG @juliafrodahl + through her app (https://www.juliafrodahl.com/app)
- Free grounding meditation with Dana ~ bit.ly/grounding-now
- Get your copy of How Your Story Sets You Free
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// sound-editing/design ~ Rose Blakelock, theme song ~ Kat Ottosen, podcast art ~ Natalee Miller///
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Crying in my Jacuzzi 13 years ago when I left
full-time grassroots organizing.
It was because I felt like wewere limited in the ways that we
organized because of the waysthat we tended to ourselves or
(00:50):
did not tend to ourselves insideof our organizing spaces,
inside of our own minds andhearts about who we were and how
we were supposed to be asorganizers, change makers, folks
down for a cause, people tryingto change the world.
And so, after my own bout withburnout related to all that I
(01:13):
really began to see thatsomething else was possible, but
it wasn't possible in at leastwhat I understood and what I
could see and what I could feeland what I could touch and in
the relationships that I had andin the ways that I understood
how to be in relationship atthat time in my life I mean, I
was in my 20s for gosh sakes,pre-saturn return.
(01:34):
There's some limits on limitson limits.
The anti-war movement, thesocial justice movement, the
social justice movement, themovements that I was involved in
, were not holding space forspiritual growth and we needed
it.
It was hindering us More onthat in a later episode, but I
(01:58):
do want to say that the healingjustice movement was born not
too long after my reorientationfrom collective work to more
interpersonal work, and that wasa shift in the inner and the
outer work.
The social activist, americanauthor, philosopher, feminist,
grace Lee Boggs, said that tomake a revolution, people must
(02:21):
not only struggle againstexisting institutions.
They must make a philosophical,spiritual leap and become more
human, human beings.
In order to change, transformthe world, they must change and
transform themselves.
You've surely already heard mequote that this season, but it
(02:41):
deserves another light shined onit, because as we all move into
this next phase of ourcollective evolution, there must
be space that we make and holdright, just like a boundary.
The hardest part isn't makingthe boundary or setting it the
first time, it's holding it inthe boundary or setting it the
(03:08):
first time it's holding it.
So we have to really learn howto make and practice holding
space for our own inner workwhen all our energy wants to go
out.
We're gonna have to direct andkeep some in.
We're gonna have to learn howto be with our attention in this
multi-dimensional way, becauseinner work, self-work,
(03:31):
individual work doesn't onlymean that it happens with in
individuals and we're allseparate.
I really feel like quite theopposite.
All healing and growth andchange and evolution happens in
relationship with ourselves,with the parts of ourselves,
with the divine, with theuniverse, with each other, with
(03:52):
the earth, with the seen andunseen, with nature, spheres.
I mean, there's so muchguidance all around, so many
opportunities for relationshipsto practice, and so I am really
feeling called to go visit oneof my teachers who I've been
(04:13):
working with for 13 years, thebrilliant Julia Froda, to talk
about and peel the layers backon what it can look like and
feel like and what's the placethat our inner work takes right
now, how to place it, how toplace ourselves in this glorious
, shimmering collective web.
Julie is a spiritual teacher anda mentor.
(04:34):
She helps folks individuals,families, couples all the
configurations navigate theirown inner worlds, their
spiritual lives, theirrelationships with each other,
their relationships with theworld.
She studied Western psychologyand Buddhism and Taoism and
nature-based wisdom.
She's steeped in contemporarytrauma healing modalities and
(04:54):
she's done a shit ton of her ownpersonal inner work.
It is evident she trains peoplein compassion and, lucky for
you, has compassion emergence afew times a year.
The wisdom in my 13 yearsworking with her I have
(05:17):
experienced the depth of herwisdom and the humility, the
compassion and the container,the care, the depth and the
breadth of all of it, and I'vereally had the great pleasure of
calling her a teacher for along time now and hopefully for
a long time to come.
So let's head into the forestnow.
This is where we're going tofind her and while we're walking
(05:38):
and I'll keep my voice kind oflow here because the forest is a
quiet forest my work with Juliahas really run the gamut from
pulling apart some of the mostexistential inquiries of my life
, she was a huge support inhelping me process getting
(05:58):
proposed to by my now husband,ryan.
If you missed that episode whatto Do when Change Sits on your
Face and Proposes Marriage fromSeason 1, go back and listen,
get the whole story and then, adecade after that, helping me
save my marriage and so muchmore oh, we're getting close,
okay, last thing I really thinkI know, I know that my work with
(06:22):
Julia Overtime has helped mebecome a better coach and guide
myself, and that's why I'mbeyond thrilled to introduce you
to Julia Fradal.
Ah, here's her cozy cabin inthe forest.
The door's already open, let'shead in.
Hello, so this season I mean, Ithink this season not just on
(06:55):
the Crying in my Jac rebellionand just thinking about the
context of our work togetherwhich has been so shaping for me
and that, like, yes, it'sindividual work, but a lot of
(07:18):
our work has also been tendingto, you know, working with me,
working with my inner rebel andsort of also my transition from
activist work into my coachingwork.
And that was around the earlytimes that we, you know, when we
started our work together I wasin that transition.
(07:39):
So many folks are figuring thisout for themselves and finding
themselves, perhaps asindividuals, placing themselves
in this like broader web ofconnection and resistance or all
the ways that we can hold it,which I know that you, you have
a, a lot perhaps to say and feelthere, that part of us that
(08:02):
wants to resist.
How to cultivate it so it's notjust tension crunchy.
Cultivate it so it's not justtension crunchy.
Ah, fuck you guys.
I don't want anything to dowith you.
There's so much more to it thatI've learned through our work
together.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
So a couple of things come to mind when you put that
on the table and ask thatquestion.
So the question about the innerrebels.
When we're talking about theinner rebel, what's important to
understand is, just like theinner conformist, those are
(08:39):
actually both wounded places.
They're reactionary places andtheir point of focus, their
center of focus, is externalized.
So both the rebel and theconformist are looking outside
themselves and deciding eitherto obey what's being asked of
(09:03):
them, conform to what's beingasked of them, or to rebel and
do the opposite, or to rebel anddo the opposite.
So a healthy alternative comesfrom a complete reorientation to
an intrinsic motivation andthat comes from, you know,
(09:25):
sometimes a long path of innerwork and individuation right.
So we live in societies nowthat are very extrinsically
motivating and oriented.
We are motivated by punishmentand reward.
The carrot of belonging is heldby conforming, even conforming
(09:46):
as a rebel right, belonging tothe club of rebels.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Totally.
That's still.
That's all extrinsic motivation.
When we're in extrinsicmotivation, we bypass the
developmental work of theindividual and finding our, our
deep humanity and actuallyaccessing the, the deep reality
(10:15):
and and experience of interbeingright, and not only amongst
humans but with the whole earthcommunity.
And so I mean there's a wholehistorical legacy we could maybe
touch upon here, because Iwould also love to talk about a
framework that can help makesense of what's going on and
(10:37):
help people find a role to playhere, called the Great Turning
in which we could show upexploring the idea of
rebelliousness, because I thinkthat there's that mature rebel
and that in that sort ofmaturity that there is a lot of
like diversifying, that happens.
(10:58):
It's like this inner world, whenwe are guided to tune into it,
when we learn to tune into it.
That's where insight and wisdomcome, that's where our
imagination comes through andcreative thinking comes through
and the ability to be avisionary for a future.
So I would even say thatperhaps I would call the mature
(11:20):
rebel the visionary, becausetheir point of reference is no
longer external, right, theyhave been able to tap into some
some deeper, and not that we areoblivious to the external.
We take that into consideration, right, and we're navigating as
part of that web.
But we're anchored in ourselvesand you know deeper sources of
(11:47):
wisdom that we're able to tapinto that way, and that's sort
of like the.
That's the primary groundingthat we're working from while
we're aware of and responding towhat's going on outside of us.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah, and.
I feel, like that's practice,that's not something that
happens overnight, and I feellike that it's going to be such
a big part of those of us whoserve in these various ways, the
space that we're holding forpractice, because more and more
folks, you know, as the space isbeing flooded with like horror
(12:25):
after horror, whether it'sclimate crisis or mismanagement
that leads to these crises, allof the different pieces fitting
together that are surely justyou know we're in that we're on
that long road now and like howare we going to be in these
practices of like findingourselves learning how to make
(12:47):
space for even that, for thepractice, let alone being in the
practices?
Right, and yeah, and I know youhold spaces for practice in
that way.
Just I'm curious if you have inyour own work, how you're
noticing being in these times,like does it feel different
right now for you, maybepersonally, but also
(13:08):
collectively?
Like what you're feeling withand noticing with folks, like
how they're arriving, howthey're dealing with the sort of
consistent onslaught ofinformation processing and what
you're noticing?
feels like most important orsupportive.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
I mean, we're in such an acceleration of, let's just
say, unraveling and without avision for what we can do in
that unraveling.
It's really terrifying andobviously there are groups of
people that are morespecifically targeted and
(13:46):
suffering, so it's really hard.
I see everything from a lot ofbacksliding into, like past sort
of trauma states to like thehero in a person being awakened.
So I think it really helps tokeep a couple things in mind.
(14:08):
One is to remember that that isthe intention to overwhelm,
right, that is an absolute fact.
But the other is to understand,to zoom out and understand that
every catastrophe and everyaspect of cultural and
(14:30):
environmental collapse we areexperiencing and witnessing,
they all come from the same rootcause, right?
So that can help us dial downinto that root cause and some of
us can work there while otherswork in other very specific
(14:51):
places, and maybe that's wherewe can talk about the great
turning a little bit.
But it does help to to bothzoom out and then dial down on
that, that fundamental rootcause, which again is a failure
in human development, a failureto develop these like deeper
capacities of the human being,like compassion, like the, the
(15:17):
understanding of inter interbeing, again not just amongst
humans, but with the whole, thewhole planet.
Right, it's called eco, ecobelonging.
Yeah, we are living in a worldthat amplifies a very
egotistical state of being, andsometimes anthropological, but I
(15:39):
would say that both of thoseare actually extremely limited
in their understanding.
So I think it helps tounderstand that there is a root
cause here and we need to beworking at that root cause,
while we also put out theliteral and proverbial fires at
the same time.
Right and, and everyone hastheir unique set of capacities
(16:02):
and interests.
There's a place for everyone inthis time.
So, you know, do you want totalk a little bit about the
great turning to maybe sort ofhelp people see these three main
kind of buckets that aredefined there.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, and I, you know I think about this all the time
.
What you're saying, everyonehas a place.
My dear friend, Leah Garza hasa year long course called Living
Systems.
She says nothing is superfluousin a living system, even maybe
the hopelessness when that'scoming in or despair like even
that is not superfluous.
The idea of using the failureto develop compassion and
(16:43):
interbeing the failure isn'tsuperfluous in this system
either.
Right, like there's a place forit.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
You know right.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
It's sort of like no mud, no lotus right, yeah, right
, right, yes, and so yeah, Iwould love maybe that.
Maybe that was a little bit ofa lubrication into a great
journey.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
I know I love that.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
That's really beautiful are you interested in
(17:25):
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(18:27):
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Speaker 3 (18:30):
Okay, so this is an idea that comes from historian
and anthropologist.
So there have been three majorrevolutions in human history.
The first one is the cognitiverevolution, which actually
allowed us to start to buildsocieties in really early
(18:51):
primitive times.
And then after that we had theagricultural revolution, which
drastically changed the way thatwe live.
We could talk for hours justabout that.
And then there is thescientific and industrial
revolution, right, which reallyaccelerated the way that we live
(19:12):
but also mechanized the waythat we live right and
externalized our orientation toa great extent.
And so scientists andanthropologists have called the
period that we're in right nowthe consciousness revolution,
(19:33):
which also has been called thegreat turning and a moving away
(19:59):
from these mechanistic ways ofbeing and these extractive ways
of being to one ofinterconnectedness and one of
more stewardship and care.
And they have said that they'veseen us moving, that data shows
us moving in this direction.
But of course, the old worlddoesn't go out without a fight,
right.
so we're right now experiencinga the great unraveling of the
old way while the new way isbeing built or being born right
(20:23):
and so there are three, uh, sortof three categories or three
roles that a person can play toparticipate in the building of
the new world, to participateproactively in the great journey
.
The first category, like theholding actions, so they're all
(20:45):
of the ways that a person or agroup can slow down the
destructive ways of theindustrial era.
So this is what we typicallyunderstand as legislation,
activism and things like that.
There's all kinds of things inthere, but it's holding things
(21:08):
back to prevent as muchdestruction and death as
possible.
And then the second category isthe building of new ways.
So this is where people arecreating the new world and
attracting people into that newworld and that new way of being.
You can do that as anentrepreneur.
You can do that in an endlessnumber of ways building the new
(21:32):
ways of existing together moreconsciously and with an
understanding of interrelatedthings.
And then the third category,which is actually essential for
everyone to participate in andthat everyone can participate in
, and that's inner work.
That is, developing your ownawareness, doing your own inner
(21:56):
work from, uh, from the healingof of wounds and trauma and you
know the undoing of conditioningand and coping strategies, all
the way to the expansive work ofnot just intellectually
understanding you know what I'mcalling interbeing, but actually
(22:19):
having the felt experience ofthat, and there are practices
that support us in that.
But those are the three maincategories, and you know the
second category, the building ofnew ways.
It can't take root if therearen't enough people doing that
inner work to change theirconsciousness and and, through
(22:39):
that change in consciousness,change their choices and change
the way they interact in in theworld.
Right.
So that that's the great, and Ifind it to just be a really
helpful framework in terms oftrying to wrap your head around
what's going on, what'shappening, and find a place
(23:01):
within it.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate this and I mean we've
talked about these thingsbefore in our work and just for
myself, thinking back to, likemy early activist and organizing
days, my early time was withthe group Code Pink Women for
Peace and it was like I couldsee number one and two trying to
(23:23):
like slow the war machine,trying to slow these systems
down, trying to figuratively andliterally, sometimes like
monkey wrench right, stop thesystem from moving as fast as it
was, and the human cost and theenvironmental cost and the
consciousness cost, all thethings.
And then inside of that workthere were folks that were you
(23:46):
know, in number two oh, we'rebuilding the new ways.
Were you know in number two, oh, we're building the new ways.
This was way back in 2004, five, six, where I was seeing, I
felt, like a tension between oneand two.
Some people had ideas aboutlike well, no, we have to do
number one like number two,whatever.
(24:06):
And it was like I got reallyclear like, oh, these are both
necessary.
I'm in this camp over heremostly with my time and energy,
though, like I'm really gladpeople are over here.
In number two, we're in slowingdown, which included
accountability, which included alot of things and you know pink
wigs and feather boas, somehow.
But you know how we foundlightness in all of that and
(24:32):
then in my own work, rightfinding as an activist,
realizing that, like, numberthree was was didn't exist in
those spaces.
It was what I've come to callpunk damage.
Right, it was like there was noroom for inner work and it was
looked down upon and there wasshame because there was no
(24:53):
accompaniment of, like, theexperience that we were actually
having and we were all having alot of emotions.
Right, like yeah, because doingthis work in the unraveling,
watching, watching, feeling,experiencing, the old systems
unravel and and that they're notjust unraveling over there,
right, they're like themulti-headed Hydra coming out
(25:16):
and everyone's being pulled down.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Yes, and I mean the reality is we can't any.
Any system we live in can onlybe as good as the, you know, as
mature as the humans thatcreated them.
Right?
So we have to do this work too,so that, as we are trying to
come up with new ways, they arecoming from these, um, much more
(25:41):
mature understandings.
Yeah, you know, and one thing Inoticed really early on as I
started doing inner work withpeople which is so beautiful is
that, almost without exception,after a person did a certain
amount of healing, before I knewit, they would come to the
(26:03):
session with the question or thestatement I've been wondering
how I can be of more service.
You know that it's just, it'sthis thing that naturally arises
in us, it's this thing thatnaturally lives in us, but it's
this desire to be of service andbe integrated in that way.
But it's suppressed by ourtrauma, because when we're in
(26:27):
our trauma states, we're just sofocused on being okay that we
often can't see beyond that.
So we can't skip that work, wehave to do that work, but it
naturally leads to an unfurlingof the heart that just wants to
weave itself into the world andbe a contributing member.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
That connection.
For me, that's never notrelevant.
As systems unravel, we willunravel.
Like you said, we can onlycreate systems as mature as we
are right yeah.
And so there's a depth that Ifeel like we're being called
forth to when we're watchingthese systems unravel and that
(27:09):
like where we're being called togo, and that connection, those
connections that we are beinginvited.
The great turning is aninvitation to, yes, connect with
each other, yes, build newtogether, but that we have to do
it from from another place.
So this idea of like themaster's tools will not
(27:30):
dismantle the the master's house.
It's like okay, great, so wedon't want to rebuild the
master's house, there'ssomething new and we can't build
it with the old tools well, no,I love everything you're saying
(27:56):
, I just it's in it.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
I think so much of the population is either
directly or indirectly,indirectly dissuaded from doing
their inner work because of thisidea that it's self-indulgent
or selfish, especially in thesetimes, you know, when there are
so many, again, literal andproverbial fires to put out.
But you know that couldn't befurther from the truth, because
(28:21):
you know, like you mentionedactive imagination, and you know
which is sort of being inconversation, compassionate
conversation with these variousparts of ourselves.
Well, amongst the outcomes ofthat kind of work is it also
changes the way we are engagingwith other beings, right
(28:42):
ourselves.
We practice this ability tolisten and this ability to find
a deeper understanding of why apart or a person is doing what
they're doing or acting the waythey're acting, and it all it
always.
You know, if it's a negativething, it almost always comes
from suffering of some kind.
And so as we practice thatexperience on ourselves, we
(29:05):
naturally find ourselves walkingaround the world in that same
paradigm and seeing others thatway as well and having a much
deeper understanding of whypeople are doing what they're
doing.
And that doesn't mean if it'ssomething harmful, it doesn't
mean we're like, oh well, butthey're suffering, so it's okay.
It doesn't mean that at all,but it does change the way we
(29:28):
respond to that thing and itenables us to respond to that
thing in a way that ispotentially a lot more
constructive and healing, ormore about protecting someone
else who is being threatened bysomeone who is harmful, as
opposed to directing harmfulenergy at the one who's being
harmful.
Right, I mean, there's aninfinite number of ways that
(29:52):
that plays out, but the point isthat you know, doing your inner
work is the furthest thing fromselfish you can get because of
the way it ripples out in theworld of the way it ripples out
in the world.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
There's a rebelliousness.
You know, if I'm to use thatword, knowing I'm using it like
very generously and alsogeneratively, everything you
were saying about, like whensomeone does the practice of
inner work and turning towardsthemselves, eventually there
will be their own version of theturning from.
That choice of doing the thingthat we are taught in so many
(30:31):
ways is not the thing that weshould do, and especially as
conscious people, right being inthis, the consciousness
revolution that, like no, weshould really focus outward.
That even social justicemovements, as we understand them
, can pull us into that oldparadigm of shutting ourselves
(30:53):
off to ourselves, right, andthat that's not.
We can't get all of the growthand maturity that we need from
that.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Right, we would bypass all of the unconscious
content, would bypass all of theunconscious content, and we
would, as many religions do.
Unfortunately, and as you see,in a lot of activist spaces, we
end up justifying our ownviolence.
You know, in in the way thatwe're sort of presenting this
other that we're fightingagainst.
And you know, the buddha saidit, martin luther king said it
(31:25):
hatred is never going to destroyhatred, right?
Only love can do that, and sowe have to learn to come from
that place of love that isresilient love.
Love is not, you know, some likelight, fluffy thing.
It has a lot of different formsof expression.
This is one of the things thatwe do talk about in my
compassion training that youknow, love and compassion can
(31:49):
express themselves in the gentle, soothing way, but they can
also be fierce protectors.
So we just haven't been taughtabout the multifacetedness of
these really powerful qualities,and so we only think of them.
We've been taught to think ofthem, especially in our culture,
and compassion is considered aweakness, right, but it's not.
(32:10):
It's actually an incrediblestrength.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yeah, I feel like it's like that teaching around
weakness, and also thatsometimes it feels like
compassion.
It's almost like this capital C, some big practice that I have
got to really work on, because Idon't know where it is in me
and I don't have it for them orthat and I can't do it, and it's
like this inaccessible monoliththat we cannot.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Well, because we're thinking of it again externally.
We're trying to applycompassion externally before we
learn to apply it to ourselves.
That doesn work.
That becomes either what you'retalking about, where we
disqualify compassion as apowerful tool lack of a better
(32:55):
word in that moment or it turnsinto people pleasing and
enabling of harmful behaviors.
But if we start with ourselvesright and we start with that
love and that comes from a deepunderstanding of why things are
the way they are, how thingscame to be the way that they are
, why we've been doing thingsthe way we've been doing them,
(33:18):
we see the, the roots ofsuffering there.
Then there's this whole openingthat happens and then we have
this natural opening for others.
Right, it's just this, it's a,it's a gross misconception that
you know, going back to whatyou're talking about, earlier
that you didn't use this word,but you know you were talking
(33:41):
about paying attention toyourself.
I'm talking about, like,finding actual self-love, right
and self-compassion.
And there is this assumption Iencounter it like numerous times
every compassion immersion Ilead.
There's this fear that aperson's going to become
(34:02):
narcissistic or selfish orself-indulgent.
Those words mean very differentthings.
I mean to love someone is towant them to be well and happy,
basically.
And so, if we take that basicdefinition, self-love is wanting
(34:23):
yourself to be well.
Right.
Love is wanting yourself to bewell.
Right and then, when you'rewell, what happens?
You humans want others to bewell.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
It's so simple energetic grounding is the
age-old cornerstone of countlessspiritual and magical practices
.
For me, grounding has been oneof the most important and
nourishing practices of my adultlife.
It's how I tend to my nervoussystem.
(34:56):
It's how I call my attentionand my energy back to myself.
When it's scattered, when I'min the swirl, it helps me
connect to myself and thosearound me that I care about,
because it helps me practicestaying, practice presence,
(35:17):
practice tenderness, even whenthe world around me doesn't seem
to have a whole lot of any ofthose things.
It's even more important than Ido that we do so.
Go, get your free grounding,guided meditation, the link in
the show notes, have me in yourear, use it whenever you wish.
(35:40):
We could all use some slow downmedicine right about now.
Medicine right about now thatwas one of the trains of thought
that was coming through earlier.
I'm glad you named it.
Our sort of reticence, our likeresistance to leaning into the
depths, the bigness of thoseexperiences, like we'll pull
(36:07):
back, we'll have a millionreasons why not to do it, and a
lot of it unconscious, some ofit conscious.
Or the little like mechanismswe've used to hold those old
protective measures in place,like what would you offer to
someone who maybe is noticingthey're holding back in their
own care, love for themselvesthemselves, right?
Feel like there is no room forit and or it is self-indulgent
(36:32):
and I know you've been sayingthis, even if there's someone
out there cry baby, out thereright now, listening and and
feeling like they they want toextend love, maybe out to others
, maybe maybe to themselves insome way.
They want to expand theircapacity for care, but it feels
(36:54):
scary, or there's reasons thatthey keep giving themselves to,
to not.
What might you say?
Speaker 3 (37:09):
let the shell break and go slow and, of course, if
there is a lot of trauma inthere, find a guide you can
trust.
If even that feelsinsurmountable, start by reading
books, because you know books,reading books about these things
(37:31):
gives a person who has reallylearned to be untrusting of
other humans who might be guidesfor them.
It just gives them this littledistance from the teacher right
or the therapist to read ontheir own and then that can open
something up to something there.
(37:51):
But you know, we do ultimatelyneed to understand that pretty
much all of our emotional andpsychological wounds are
relational wounds and theyultimately have to be healed in
relationship.
So you know, however far awayanyone is from that, it doesn't
(38:17):
matter.
Just find a place to start andyou know, just know that there's
literally no being that isunlovable, right?
I think I would just add to someof the fears that you were
(38:40):
laying out.
One that I often hear is peopleare just afraid that if they
look in they're going to findsome terrible monster inside.
They just know it's in there.
They're afraid to encounter it.
Right, that is an interjectionof some projection that came
their way.
There are no monsters in there.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
There's just a lot of misconceptions, and those are
the things that one will want toremove, and if one finds the
courage to do that, there's justa whole lot of love in there,
isn't it always amazing I findthis in my practice and, of
course, in myself turningtowards the things that feel
(39:32):
scariest, that, even if justturning towards it doesn't
always mean like flipping allthe way around and exposing
ourselves belly up to it, right,sometimes we're just kind of
like side-eyeing it for a while,where sometimes the turn is
slow and it's different maybefor everyone, but that sometimes
shit is still really real andscary, but we're not saying hey,
I'm not saying that, but butthat so often there's a, a
(39:57):
tenderness, a love or a versionof ourselves that we'll see that
is like the younger, scaredversion, or the like the, the
young, tender one, or you know,who just had an experience, and
like that.
There's so often where we thinkthe monster is, there, is, is,
you know, maybe also with it, ormaybe sometimes in place of
(40:21):
that is just a tender spot wherelove or care needs to be right,
or there's yeah, what's thatreal key quote?
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Perhaps all the dragons of our lives are just I
don't know.
I don't remember angels thatneed our love, or something like
that.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
If I may, the full quote is perhaps all the dragons
in our lives are princesses whoare only waiting to see us act
just once, with beauty andcourage.
Perhaps everything thatfrightens us is, in its deepest
essence, something helpless thatwants our love.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
Yeah, and we learn that feels resonant for, you
know, also thinking aboutunraveling and this idea sort of
of the visionary, the maturerebel, whatever this place of oh
right, I can look at them allas dragons, and then that fills
me with dragons or that fills mewith dragon fire or something,
(41:21):
whatever the, whatever theideology might be, and that, as
we do, the, the inner work, andand and that doesn't include,
you know, breathing fire onourselves, necessarily, right,
like there's a tenderness in, in, in that work often that allows
us to then practice and then dothat, you know, see, as you
(41:43):
said, like see the world in adifferent way, see each other,
begin that like interbeing, thatconnectedness, that
relationality, and even seeingthe systems in that way.
And that doesn't mean that wehave to, like you said, like go
be like okay, well, they're allangels, and I think that's part
of a design, like, oh, if welook at, if we turn towards
(42:04):
people, and we and we do givecompassion, that somehow that
means zero accountability andthat true compassion, I think it
requires that accountability,requires that accompaniment.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
it's not a like hands-off, oh, you know no big
deal, and it's, and then theswing of that would be, you know
that intense aggressor andwe're trying to find another
which is very black and white,right, it's love or not love,
compassion or not compassion, asopposed to under, yeah, yeah,
and I I think it's important toacknowledge too that you know,
(42:46):
because of how far along or howfar away we are from healthy
human development at this point,we don't have a lot of role
models to show us these things,right, role models that you know
, we can, we can look to tounderstand.
Okay, what does a more complexunderstanding of compassion look
(43:07):
like?
What is what is compassion with?
What does a more complexunderstanding of compassion look
like?
What is compassion withaccountability?
What does that look like?
What does self-compassion withaccountability look like?
Right, what does all of thatlook like?
We just don't have a lot ofmodels around, and so this is
what's creating this viciouscycle, because we have a lack of
(43:29):
humans who are actually matureadults and have done their own
developmental work that canusher others along, and so we
need more of that too, their ownwork, and then who might step
into those roles as matureadults and eventually, elders
(43:50):
who are there to help others.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
That really just shifted something in the way
that I've been thinking it didnot.
I think maybe I told you thisin a session that we had, I'm
not sure so, but uh, and I feelfine sharing it here where I'd
recently been having aconversation with Ryan and we
(44:18):
were on a walk and we I, I likelaid down on the ground and had
all my big you know like, justreally like dumped so much
energy into the ground, you know, ask permission released and
just like uh felt so, met, andthen afterwards I was walking
with Ryan, we were on, we wereout in the desert and he said
something.
We were looking at howbeautiful the desert was and I
(44:41):
made some comment about beingmidlife.
You know, like we're causewe're.
He's about to turn 45.
I'm going to turn 45 at the endof the year and he's like, yeah
, 45 more years to go.
And I was like speak foryourself.
You know, I was like I don'twant to live 45 more years.
That sounds terrible.
Maybe I wasn't being quite thatsalty Cause, I was actually
like quite calm and peaceful inthat moment, but I do remember
(45:03):
like having that feeling and andwhat you just said about like
being an elder, because I thinkI've had resistance myself.
I think, just in that momentthat you said it, a new little
possibility opened up for me,like a possible future.
I just like caught a littleshimmering, glimmering glimpse
(45:24):
of it, of of wanting to be that.
I'm wanting to be that andwanting it more than I'm afraid
of whatever might be scary aboutall the things that I could
(45:45):
imagine or that many otherpeople have imagined.
And thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 3 (45:52):
That reminds me of thank you too.
That's beautiful.
That reminds me of somethingAOC said in a video recently I'm
paraphrasing because I don'tremember exactly and she was
just doing what she does so well, which is she said I don't care
if I she was talking about theNazis salute that Elon Musk made
(46:12):
, and she was saying I don'tcare if I'm the last good person
standing.
I'm going to be that, and metoo, and I think me too for a
lot of people, and you too.
Yeah, and I think that thevision that we hold of what's
possible in this moment makes ahuge difference.
(46:33):
Right, because that guides thechoices and actions, the blinds
and cover our heads and hope forthe best version of this
(46:55):
terrible version.
That's what we're going to get.
But if we hold another visionof what we dream, of, what's
possible, then we're more likelyno guarantees, but we're more
likely to get that.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
Yeah yeah, just proof , like there's always more
layers right as things unravel,we unravel, as things unfold, we
unfold, systems unfold, weunfold like yeah I kind of knew
that there was that fatalism inthere, but it wasn't until that
moment when you said the wordelder.
(47:30):
Just touched it and, um, there'sa some, some little veil that
was just like really gentlyremoved.
So I can see that and and tendtend to there.
So I'm sure we'll be talkingabout it in our next session.
(47:53):
Thank you so much, and thankyou for that's beautiful, for
everything always for everything.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
Thank you, too, it's a pleasure.
Thank you For everything.
Thank you, too, it's a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Thank you.
If you'd like to work withJulia, her next live online
group course starts May 25th.
It is a nature-based parts workgroup course.
This coursework encapsulatesinner child work, self-talk,
(48:42):
self-love, reparenting andovercoming limiting beliefs all
in one.
Reparenting and overcominglimiting beliefs all in one.
It's a form of parts worksimilar to internal family
systems, but with moreaspirational components for a
spiritual life.
This is right up our alleycrybabies.
The link to learn more and signup is in the show notes.
(49:02):
There's a payment plan optiontoo.
Crying in my jacuzzi crying inmy jacuzzi oh, I love you five
(49:43):
starsand a written review.
Send me the name of your reviewand I'll add you to the monthly
raffle for a free coachingsession with me.
Subscribing, rating andreviewing are amazing and they
help us out immensely.
And you listening, you sharingwith your community is the very
best thing that we in thejacuzzi verse could hope for.
(50:05):
So thank you, crybabies, Thankyou for your support.
Earworm theme music by the verytalented Kat Otteson, Sound
design and editing.
Magic by the effervescent RoseBlakelock.
Keep questioning, keep feeling,keep rebelling in all the ways
(50:27):
that matter.
And remember the Jacuzzi iseverywhere.
At any moment you could enterinto the version of
non-normative consciousness thatis Jacuzzi consciousness.
Crying in my Jacuzzi 13 years ago when I left
full-time grassroots organizing.
It was because I felt like wewere limited in the ways that we
organized because of the waysthat we tended to ourselves or
(00:50):
did not tend to ourselves insideof our organizing spaces,
inside of our own minds andhearts about who we were and how
we were supposed to be asorganizers, change makers, folks
down for a cause, people tryingto change the world.
And so, after my own bout withburnout related to all that I
(01:13):
really began to see thatsomething else was possible, but
it wasn't possible in at leastwhat I understood and what I
could see and what I could feeland what I could touch and in
the relationships that I had andin the ways that I understood
how to be in relationship atthat time in my life I mean, I
was in my 20s for gosh sakes,pre-saturn return.
(01:34):
There's some limits on limitson limits.
The anti-war movement, thesocial justice movement, the
social justice movement, themovements that I was involved in
, were not holding space forspiritual growth and we needed
it.
It was hindering us More onthat in a later episode, but I
(01:58):
do want to say that the healingjustice movement was born not
too long after my reorientationfrom collective work to more
interpersonal work, and that wasa shift in the inner and the
outer work.
The social activist, americanauthor, philosopher, feminist,
grace Lee Boggs, said that tomake a revolution, people must
(02:21):
not only struggle againstexisting institutions.
They must make a philosophical,spiritual leap and become more
human, human beings.
In order to change, transformthe world, they must change and
transform themselves.
You've surely already heard mequote that this season, but it
(02:41):
deserves another light shined onit, because as we all move into
this next phase of ourcollective evolution, there must
be space that we make and holdright, just like a boundary.
The hardest part isn't makingthe boundary or setting it the
first time, it's holding it inthe boundary or setting it the
(03:08):
first time it's holding it.
So we have to really learn howto make and practice holding
space for our own inner workwhen all our energy wants to go
out.
We're gonna have to direct andkeep some in.
We're gonna have to learn howto be with our attention in this
multi-dimensional way, becauseinner work, self-work,
(03:31):
individual work doesn't onlymean that it happens with in
individuals and we're allseparate.
I really feel like quite theopposite.
All healing and growth andchange and evolution happens in
relationship with ourselves,with the parts of ourselves,
with the divine, with theuniverse, with each other, with
(03:52):
the earth, with the seen andunseen, with nature, spheres.
I mean, there's so muchguidance all around, so many
opportunities for relationshipsto practice, and so I am really
feeling called to go visit oneof my teachers who I've been
(04:13):
working with for 13 years, thebrilliant Julia Froda, to talk
about and peel the layers backon what it can look like and
feel like and what's the placethat our inner work takes right
now, how to place it, how toplace ourselves in this glorious
, shimmering collective web.
Julie is a spiritual teacher anda mentor.
(04:34):
She helps folks individuals,families, couples all the
configurations navigate theirown inner worlds, their
spiritual lives, theirrelationships with each other,
their relationships with theworld.
She studied Western psychologyand Buddhism and Taoism and
nature-based wisdom.
She's steeped in contemporarytrauma healing modalities and
(04:54):
she's done a shit ton of her ownpersonal inner work.
It is evident she trains peoplein compassion and, lucky for
you, has compassion emergence afew times a year.
The wisdom in my 13 yearsworking with her I have
(05:17):
experienced the depth of herwisdom and the humility, the
compassion and the container,the care, the depth and the
breadth of all of it, and I'vereally had the great pleasure of
calling her a teacher for along time now and hopefully for
a long time to come.
So let's head into the forestnow.
This is where we're going tofind her and while we're walking
(05:38):
and I'll keep my voice kind oflow here because the forest is a
quiet forest my work with Juliahas really run the gamut from
pulling apart some of the mostexistential inquiries of my life
, she was a huge support inhelping me process getting
(05:58):
proposed to by my now husband,ryan.
If you missed that episode whatto Do when Change Sits on your
Face and Proposes Marriage fromSeason 1, go back and listen,
get the whole story and then, adecade after that, helping me
save my marriage and so muchmore oh, we're getting close,
okay, last thing I really thinkI know, I know that my work with
(06:22):
Julia Overtime has helped mebecome a better coach and guide
myself, and that's why I'mbeyond thrilled to introduce you
to Julia Fradal.
Ah, here's her cozy cabin inthe forest.
The door's already open, let'shead in.
Hello, so this season I mean, Ithink this season not just on
(06:55):
the Crying in my Jac rebellionand just thinking about the
context of our work togetherwhich has been so shaping for me
and that, like, yes, it'sindividual work, but a lot of
(07:18):
our work has also been tendingto, you know, working with me,
working with my inner rebel andsort of also my transition from
activist work into my coachingwork.
And that was around the earlytimes that we, you know, when we
started our work together I wasin that transition.
(07:39):
So many folks are figuring thisout for themselves and finding
themselves, perhaps asindividuals, placing themselves
in this like broader web ofconnection and resistance or all
the ways that we can hold it,which I know that you, you have
a, a lot perhaps to say and feelthere, that part of us that
(08:02):
wants to resist.
How to cultivate it so it's notjust tension crunchy.
Cultivate it so it's not justtension crunchy.
Ah, fuck you guys.
I don't want anything to dowith you.
There's so much more to it thatI've learned through our work
together.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
So a couple of things come to mind when you put that
on the table and ask thatquestion.
So the question about the innerrebels.
When we're talking about theinner rebel, what's important to
understand is, just like theinner conformist, those are
(08:39):
actually both wounded places.
They're reactionary places andtheir point of focus, their
center of focus, is externalized.
So both the rebel and theconformist are looking outside
themselves and deciding eitherto obey what's being asked of
(09:03):
them, conform to what's beingasked of them, or to rebel and
do the opposite, or to rebel anddo the opposite.
So a healthy alternative comesfrom a complete reorientation to
an intrinsic motivation andthat comes from, you know,
(09:25):
sometimes a long path of innerwork and individuation right.
So we live in societies nowthat are very extrinsically
motivating and oriented.
We are motivated by punishmentand reward.
The carrot of belonging is heldby conforming, even conforming
(09:46):
as a rebel right, belonging tothe club of rebels.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Totally.
That's still.
That's all extrinsic motivation.
When we're in extrinsicmotivation, we bypass the
developmental work of theindividual and finding our, our
deep humanity and actuallyaccessing the, the deep reality
(10:15):
and and experience of interbeingright, and not only amongst
humans but with the whole earthcommunity.
And so I mean there's a wholehistorical legacy we could maybe
touch upon here, because Iwould also love to talk about a
framework that can help makesense of what's going on and
(10:37):
help people find a role to playhere, called the Great Turning
in which we could show upexploring the idea of
rebelliousness, because I thinkthat there's that mature rebel
and that in that sort ofmaturity that there is a lot of
like diversifying, that happens.
(10:58):
It's like this inner world, whenwe are guided to tune into it,
when we learn to tune into it.
That's where insight and wisdomcome, that's where our
imagination comes through andcreative thinking comes through
and the ability to be avisionary for a future.
So I would even say thatperhaps I would call the mature
(11:20):
rebel the visionary, becausetheir point of reference is no
longer external, right, theyhave been able to tap into some
some deeper, and not that we areoblivious to the external.
We take that into consideration, right, and we're navigating as
part of that web.
But we're anchored in ourselvesand you know deeper sources of
(11:47):
wisdom that we're able to tapinto that way, and that's sort
of like the.
That's the primary groundingthat we're working from while
we're aware of and responding towhat's going on outside of us.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah, and.
I feel, like that's practice,that's not something that
happens overnight, and I feellike that it's going to be such
a big part of those of us whoserve in these various ways, the
space that we're holding forpractice, because more and more
folks, you know, as the space isbeing flooded with like horror
(12:25):
after horror, whether it'sclimate crisis or mismanagement
that leads to these crises, allof the different pieces fitting
together that are surely justyou know we're in that we're on
that long road now and like howare we going to be in these
practices of like findingourselves learning how to make
(12:47):
space for even that, for thepractice, let alone being in the
practices?
Right, and yeah, and I know youhold spaces for practice in
that way.
Just I'm curious if you have inyour own work, how you're
noticing being in these times,like does it feel different
right now for you, maybepersonally, but also
(13:08):
collectively?
Like what you're feeling withand noticing with folks, like
how they're arriving, howthey're dealing with the sort of
consistent onslaught ofinformation processing and what
you're noticing?
feels like most important orsupportive.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
I mean, we're in such an acceleration of, let's just
say, unraveling and without avision for what we can do in
that unraveling.
It's really terrifying andobviously there are groups of
people that are morespecifically targeted and
(13:46):
suffering, so it's really hard.
I see everything from a lot ofbacksliding into, like past sort
of trauma states to like thehero in a person being awakened.
So I think it really helps tokeep a couple things in mind.
(14:08):
One is to remember that that isthe intention to overwhelm,
right, that is an absolute fact.
But the other is to understand,to zoom out and understand that
every catastrophe and everyaspect of cultural and
(14:30):
environmental collapse we areexperiencing and witnessing,
they all come from the same rootcause, right?
So that can help us dial downinto that root cause and some of
us can work there while otherswork in other very specific
(14:51):
places, and maybe that's wherewe can talk about the great
turning a little bit.
But it does help to to bothzoom out and then dial down on
that, that fundamental rootcause, which again is a failure
in human development, a failureto develop these like deeper
capacities of the human being,like compassion, like the, the
(15:17):
understanding of inter interbeing, again not just amongst
humans, but with the whole, thewhole planet.
Right, it's called eco, ecobelonging.
Yeah, we are living in a worldthat amplifies a very
egotistical state of being, andsometimes anthropological, but I
(15:39):
would say that both of thoseare actually extremely limited
in their understanding.
So I think it helps tounderstand that there is a root
cause here and we need to beworking at that root cause,
while we also put out theliteral and proverbial fires at
the same time.
Right and, and everyone hastheir unique set of capacities
(16:02):
and interests.
There's a place for everyone inthis time.
So, you know, do you want totalk a little bit about the
great turning to maybe sort ofhelp people see these three main
kind of buckets that aredefined there.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, and I, you know I think about this all the time
.
What you're saying, everyonehas a place.
My dear friend, Leah Garza hasa year long course called Living
Systems.
She says nothing is superfluousin a living system, even maybe
the hopelessness when that'scoming in or despair like even
that is not superfluous.
The idea of using the failureto develop compassion and
(16:43):
interbeing the failure isn'tsuperfluous in this system
either.
Right, like there's a place forit.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
You know right.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
It's sort of like no mud, no lotus right, yeah, right
, right, yes, and so yeah, Iwould love maybe that.
Maybe that was a little bit ofa lubrication into a great
journey.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
I know I love that.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
That's really beautiful are you interested in
(17:25):
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Speaker 3 (18:30):
Okay, so this is an idea that comes from historian
and anthropologist.
So there have been three majorrevolutions in human history.
The first one is the cognitiverevolution, which actually
allowed us to start to buildsocieties in really early
(18:51):
primitive times.
And then after that we had theagricultural revolution, which
drastically changed the way thatwe live.
We could talk for hours justabout that.
And then there is thescientific and industrial
revolution, right, which reallyaccelerated the way that we live
(19:12):
but also mechanized the waythat we live right and
externalized our orientation toa great extent.
And so scientists andanthropologists have called the
period that we're in right nowthe consciousness revolution,
(19:33):
which also has been called thegreat turning and a moving away
(19:59):
from these mechanistic ways ofbeing and these extractive ways
of being to one ofinterconnectedness and one of
more stewardship and care.
And they have said that they'veseen us moving, that data shows
us moving in this direction.
But of course, the old worlddoesn't go out without a fight,
right.
so we're right now experiencinga the great unraveling of the
old way while the new way isbeing built or being born right
(20:23):
and so there are three, uh, sortof three categories or three
roles that a person can play toparticipate in the building of
the new world, to participateproactively in the great journey
.
The first category, like theholding actions, so they're all
(20:45):
of the ways that a person or agroup can slow down the
destructive ways of theindustrial era.
So this is what we typicallyunderstand as legislation,
activism and things like that.
There's all kinds of things inthere, but it's holding things
(21:08):
back to prevent as muchdestruction and death as
possible.
And then the second category isthe building of new ways.
So this is where people arecreating the new world and
attracting people into that newworld and that new way of being.
You can do that as anentrepreneur.
You can do that in an endlessnumber of ways building the new
(21:32):
ways of existing together moreconsciously and with an
understanding of interrelatedthings.
And then the third category,which is actually essential for
everyone to participate in andthat everyone can participate in
, and that's inner work.
That is, developing your ownawareness, doing your own inner
(21:56):
work from, uh, from the healingof of wounds and trauma and you
know the undoing of conditioningand and coping strategies, all
the way to the expansive work ofnot just intellectually
understanding you know what I'mcalling interbeing, but actually
(22:19):
having the felt experience ofthat, and there are practices
that support us in that.
But those are the three maincategories, and you know the
second category, the building ofnew ways.
It can't take root if therearen't enough people doing that
inner work to change theirconsciousness and and, through
(22:39):
that change in consciousness,change their choices and change
the way they interact in in theworld.
Right.
So that that's the great, and Ifind it to just be a really
helpful framework in terms oftrying to wrap your head around
what's going on, what'shappening, and find a place
(23:01):
within it.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate this and I mean we've
talked about these thingsbefore in our work and just for
myself, thinking back to, likemy early activist and organizing
days, my early time was withthe group Code Pink Women for
Peace and it was like I couldsee number one and two trying to
(23:23):
like slow the war machine,trying to slow these systems
down, trying to figuratively andliterally, sometimes like
monkey wrench right, stop thesystem from moving as fast as it
was, and the human cost and theenvironmental cost and the
consciousness cost, all thethings.
And then inside of that workthere were folks that were you
(23:46):
know, in number two oh, we'rebuilding the new ways.
Were you know in number two, oh, we're building the new ways.
This was way back in 2004, five, six, where I was seeing, I
felt, like a tension between oneand two.
Some people had ideas aboutlike well, no, we have to do
number one like number two,whatever.
(24:06):
And it was like I got reallyclear like, oh, these are both
necessary.
I'm in this camp over heremostly with my time and energy,
though, like I'm really gladpeople are over here.
In number two, we're in slowingdown, which included
accountability, which included alot of things and you know pink
wigs and feather boas, somehow.
But you know how we foundlightness in all of that and
(24:32):
then in my own work, rightfinding as an activist,
realizing that, like, numberthree was was didn't exist in
those spaces.
It was what I've come to callpunk damage.
Right, it was like there was noroom for inner work and it was
looked down upon and there wasshame because there was no
(24:53):
accompaniment of, like, theexperience that we were actually
having and we were all having alot of emotions.
Right, like yeah, because doingthis work in the unraveling,
watching, watching, feeling,experiencing, the old systems
unravel and and that they're notjust unraveling over there,
right, they're like themulti-headed Hydra coming out
(25:16):
and everyone's being pulled down.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Yes, and I mean the reality is we can't any.
Any system we live in can onlybe as good as the, you know, as
mature as the humans thatcreated them.
Right?
So we have to do this work too,so that, as we are trying to
come up with new ways, they arecoming from these, um, much more
(25:41):
mature understandings.
Yeah, you know, and one thing Inoticed really early on as I
started doing inner work withpeople which is so beautiful is
that, almost without exception,after a person did a certain
amount of healing, before I knewit, they would come to the
(26:03):
session with the question or thestatement I've been wondering
how I can be of more service.
You know that it's just, it'sthis thing that naturally arises
in us, it's this thing thatnaturally lives in us, but it's
this desire to be of service andbe integrated in that way.
But it's suppressed by ourtrauma, because when we're in
(26:27):
our trauma states, we're just sofocused on being okay that we
often can't see beyond that.
So we can't skip that work, wehave to do that work, but it
naturally leads to an unfurlingof the heart that just wants to
weave itself into the world andbe a contributing member.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
That connection.
For me, that's never notrelevant.
As systems unravel, we willunravel.
Like you said, we can onlycreate systems as mature as we
are right yeah.
And so there's a depth that Ifeel like we're being called
forth to when we're watchingthese systems unravel and that
(27:09):
like where we're being called togo, and that connection, those
connections that we are beinginvited.
The great turning is aninvitation to, yes, connect with
each other, yes, build newtogether, but that we have to do
it from from another place.
So this idea of like themaster's tools will not
(27:30):
dismantle the the master's house.
It's like okay, great, so wedon't want to rebuild the
master's house, there'ssomething new and we can't build
it with the old tools well, no,I love everything you're saying
(27:56):
, I just it's in it.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
I think so much of the population is either
directly or indirectly,indirectly dissuaded from doing
their inner work because of thisidea that it's self-indulgent
or selfish, especially in thesetimes, you know, when there are
so many, again, literal andproverbial fires to put out.
But you know that couldn't befurther from the truth, because
(28:21):
you know, like you mentionedactive imagination, and you know
which is sort of being inconversation, compassionate
conversation with these variousparts of ourselves.
Well, amongst the outcomes ofthat kind of work is it also
changes the way we are engagingwith other beings, right
(28:42):
ourselves.
We practice this ability tolisten and this ability to find
a deeper understanding of why apart or a person is doing what
they're doing or acting the waythey're acting, and it all it
always.
You know, if it's a negativething, it almost always comes
from suffering of some kind.
And so as we practice thatexperience on ourselves, we
(29:05):
naturally find ourselves walkingaround the world in that same
paradigm and seeing others thatway as well and having a much
deeper understanding of whypeople are doing what they're
doing.
And that doesn't mean if it'ssomething harmful, it doesn't
mean we're like, oh well, butthey're suffering, so it's okay.
It doesn't mean that at all,but it does change the way we
(29:28):
respond to that thing and itenables us to respond to that
thing in a way that ispotentially a lot more
constructive and healing, ormore about protecting someone
else who is being threatened bysomeone who is harmful, as
opposed to directing harmfulenergy at the one who's being
harmful.
Right, I mean, there's aninfinite number of ways that
(29:52):
that plays out, but the point isthat you know, doing your inner
work is the furthest thing fromselfish you can get because of
the way it ripples out in theworld of the way it ripples out
in the world.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
There's a rebelliousness.
You know, if I'm to use thatword, knowing I'm using it like
very generously and alsogeneratively, everything you
were saying about, like whensomeone does the practice of
inner work and turning towardsthemselves, eventually there
will be their own version of theturning from.
That choice of doing the thingthat we are taught in so many
(30:31):
ways is not the thing that weshould do, and especially as
conscious people, right being inthis, the consciousness
revolution that, like no, weshould really focus outward.
That even social justicemovements, as we understand them
, can pull us into that oldparadigm of shutting ourselves
(30:53):
off to ourselves, right, andthat that's not.
We can't get all of the growthand maturity that we need from
that.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Right, we would bypass all of the unconscious
content, would bypass all of theunconscious content, and we
would, as many religions do.
Unfortunately, and as you see,in a lot of activist spaces, we
end up justifying our ownviolence.
You know, in in the way thatwe're sort of presenting this
other that we're fightingagainst.
And you know, the buddha saidit, martin luther king said it
(31:25):
hatred is never going to destroyhatred, right?
Only love can do that, and sowe have to learn to come from
that place of love that isresilient love.
Love is not, you know, some likelight, fluffy thing.
It has a lot of different formsof expression.
This is one of the things thatwe do talk about in my
compassion training that youknow, love and compassion can
(31:49):
express themselves in the gentle, soothing way, but they can
also be fierce protectors.
So we just haven't been taughtabout the multifacetedness of
these really powerful qualities,and so we only think of them.
We've been taught to think ofthem, especially in our culture,
and compassion is considered aweakness, right, but it's not.
(32:10):
It's actually an incrediblestrength.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yeah, I feel like it's like that teaching around
weakness, and also thatsometimes it feels like
compassion.
It's almost like this capital C, some big practice that I have
got to really work on, because Idon't know where it is in me
and I don't have it for them orthat and I can't do it, and it's
like this inaccessible monoliththat we cannot.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Well, because we're thinking of it again externally.
We're trying to applycompassion externally before we
learn to apply it to ourselves.
That doesn work.
That becomes either what you'retalking about, where we
disqualify compassion as apowerful tool lack of a better
(32:55):
word in that moment or it turnsinto people pleasing and
enabling of harmful behaviors.
But if we start with ourselvesright and we start with that
love and that comes from a deepunderstanding of why things are
the way they are, how thingscame to be the way that they are
, why we've been doing thingsthe way we've been doing them,
(33:18):
we see the, the roots ofsuffering there.
Then there's this whole openingthat happens and then we have
this natural opening for others.
Right, it's just this, it's a,it's a gross misconception that
you know, going back to whatyou're talking about, earlier
that you didn't use this word,but you know you were talking
(33:41):
about paying attention toyourself.
I'm talking about, like,finding actual self-love, right
and self-compassion.
And there is this assumption Iencounter it like numerous times
every compassion immersion Ilead.
There's this fear that aperson's going to become
(34:02):
narcissistic or selfish orself-indulgent.
Those words mean very differentthings.
I mean to love someone is towant them to be well and happy,
basically.
And so, if we take that basicdefinition, self-love is wanting
(34:23):
yourself to be well.
Right.
Love is wanting yourself to bewell.
Right and then, when you'rewell, what happens?
You humans want others to bewell.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
It's so simple energetic grounding is the
age-old cornerstone of countlessspiritual and magical practices
.
For me, grounding has been oneof the most important and
nourishing practices of my adultlife.
It's how I tend to my nervoussystem.
(34:56):
It's how I call my attentionand my energy back to myself.
When it's scattered, when I'min the swirl, it helps me
connect to myself and thosearound me that I care about,
because it helps me practicestaying, practice presence,
(35:17):
practice tenderness, even whenthe world around me doesn't seem
to have a whole lot of any ofthose things.
It's even more important than Ido that we do so.
Go, get your free grounding,guided meditation, the link in
the show notes, have me in yourear, use it whenever you wish.
(35:40):
We could all use some slow downmedicine right about now.
Medicine right about now thatwas one of the trains of thought
that was coming through earlier.
I'm glad you named it.
Our sort of reticence, our likeresistance to leaning into the
depths, the bigness of thoseexperiences, like we'll pull
(36:07):
back, we'll have a millionreasons why not to do it, and a
lot of it unconscious, some ofit conscious.
Or the little like mechanismswe've used to hold those old
protective measures in place,like what would you offer to
someone who maybe is noticingthey're holding back in their
own care, love for themselvesthemselves, right?
Feel like there is no room forit and or it is self-indulgent
(36:32):
and I know you've been sayingthis, even if there's someone
out there cry baby, out thereright now, listening and and
feeling like they they want toextend love, maybe out to others
, maybe maybe to themselves insome way.
They want to expand theircapacity for care, but it feels
(36:54):
scary, or there's reasons thatthey keep giving themselves to,
to not.
What might you say?
Speaker 3 (37:09):
let the shell break and go slow and, of course, if
there is a lot of trauma inthere, find a guide you can
trust.
If even that feelsinsurmountable, start by reading
books, because you know books,reading books about these things
(37:31):
gives a person who has reallylearned to be untrusting of
other humans who might be guidesfor them.
It just gives them this littledistance from the teacher right
or the therapist to read ontheir own and then that can open
something up to something there.
(37:51):
But you know, we do ultimatelyneed to understand that pretty
much all of our emotional andpsychological wounds are
relational wounds and theyultimately have to be healed in
relationship.
So you know, however far awayanyone is from that, it doesn't
(38:17):
matter.
Just find a place to start andyou know, just know that there's
literally no being that isunlovable, right?
I think I would just add to someof the fears that you were
(38:40):
laying out.
One that I often hear is peopleare just afraid that if they
look in they're going to findsome terrible monster inside.
They just know it's in there.
They're afraid to encounter it.
Right, that is an interjectionof some projection that came
their way.
There are no monsters in there.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
There's just a lot of misconceptions, and those are
the things that one will want toremove, and if one finds the
courage to do that, there's justa whole lot of love in there,
isn't it always amazing I findthis in my practice and, of
course, in myself turningtowards the things that feel
(39:32):
scariest, that, even if justturning towards it doesn't
always mean like flipping allthe way around and exposing
ourselves belly up to it, right,sometimes we're just kind of
like side-eyeing it for a while,where sometimes the turn is
slow and it's different maybefor everyone, but that sometimes
shit is still really real andscary, but we're not saying hey,
I'm not saying that, but butthat so often there's a, a
(39:57):
tenderness, a love or a versionof ourselves that we'll see that
is like the younger, scaredversion, or the like the, the
young, tender one, or you know,who just had an experience, and
like that.
There's so often where we thinkthe monster is, there, is, is,
you know, maybe also with it, ormaybe sometimes in place of
(40:21):
that is just a tender spot wherelove or care needs to be right,
or there's yeah, what's thatreal key quote?
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Perhaps all the dragons of our lives are just I
don't know.
I don't remember angels thatneed our love, or something like
that.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
If I may, the full quote is perhaps all the dragons
in our lives are princesses whoare only waiting to see us act
just once, with beauty andcourage.
Perhaps everything thatfrightens us is, in its deepest
essence, something helpless thatwants our love.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
Yeah, and we learn that feels resonant for, you
know, also thinking aboutunraveling and this idea sort of
of the visionary, the maturerebel, whatever this place of oh
right, I can look at them allas dragons, and then that fills
me with dragons or that fills mewith dragon fire or something,
(41:21):
whatever the, whatever theideology might be, and that, as
we do, the, the inner work, andand and that doesn't include,
you know, breathing fire onourselves, necessarily, right,
like there's a tenderness in, in, in that work often that allows
us to then practice and then dothat, you know, see, as you
(41:43):
said, like see the world in adifferent way, see each other,
begin that like interbeing, thatconnectedness, that
relationality, and even seeingthe systems in that way.
And that doesn't mean that wehave to, like you said, like go
be like okay, well, they're allangels, and I think that's part
of a design, like, oh, if welook at, if we turn towards
(42:04):
people, and we and we do givecompassion, that somehow that
means zero accountability andthat true compassion, I think it
requires that accountability,requires that accompaniment.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
it's not a like hands-off, oh, you know no big
deal, and it's, and then theswing of that would be, you know
that intense aggressor andwe're trying to find another
which is very black and white,right, it's love or not love,
compassion or not compassion, asopposed to under, yeah, yeah,
and I I think it's important toacknowledge too that you know,
(42:46):
because of how far along or howfar away we are from healthy
human development at this point,we don't have a lot of role
models to show us these things,right, role models that you know
, we can, we can look to tounderstand.
Okay, what does a more complexunderstanding of compassion look
(43:07):
like?
What is what is compassion with?
What does a more complexunderstanding of compassion look
like?
What is compassion withaccountability?
What does that look like?
What does self-compassion withaccountability look like?
Right, what does all of thatlook like?
We just don't have a lot ofmodels around, and so this is
what's creating this viciouscycle, because we have a lack of
(43:29):
humans who are actually matureadults and have done their own
developmental work that canusher others along, and so we
need more of that too, their ownwork, and then who might step
into those roles as matureadults and eventually, elders
(43:50):
who are there to help others.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
That really just shifted something in the way
that I've been thinking it didnot.
I think maybe I told you thisin a session that we had, I'm
not sure so, but uh, and I feelfine sharing it here where I'd
recently been having aconversation with Ryan and we
(44:18):
were on a walk and we I, I likelaid down on the ground and had
all my big you know like, justreally like dumped so much
energy into the ground, you know, ask permission released and
just like uh felt so, met, andthen afterwards I was walking
with Ryan, we were on, we wereout in the desert and he said
something.
We were looking at howbeautiful the desert was and I
(44:41):
made some comment about beingmidlife.
You know, like we're causewe're.
He's about to turn 45.
I'm going to turn 45 at the endof the year and he's like, yeah
, 45 more years to go.
And I was like speak foryourself.
You know, I was like I don'twant to live 45 more years.
That sounds terrible.
Maybe I wasn't being quite thatsalty Cause, I was actually
like quite calm and peaceful inthat moment, but I do remember
(45:03):
like having that feeling and andwhat you just said about like
being an elder, because I thinkI've had resistance myself.
I think, just in that momentthat you said it, a new little
possibility opened up for me,like a possible future.
I just like caught a littleshimmering, glimmering glimpse
(45:24):
of it, of of wanting to be that.
I'm wanting to be that andwanting it more than I'm afraid
of whatever might be scary aboutall the things that I could
(45:45):
imagine or that many otherpeople have imagined.
And thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 3 (45:52):
That reminds me of thank you too.
That's beautiful.
That reminds me of somethingAOC said in a video recently I'm
paraphrasing because I don'tremember exactly and she was
just doing what she does so well, which is she said I don't care
if I she was talking about theNazis salute that Elon Musk made
(46:12):
, and she was saying I don'tcare if I'm the last good person
standing.
I'm going to be that, and metoo, and I think me too for a
lot of people, and you too.
Yeah, and I think that thevision that we hold of what's
possible in this moment makes ahuge difference.
(46:33):
Right, because that guides thechoices and actions, the blinds
and cover our heads and hope forthe best version of this
(46:55):
terrible version.
That's what we're going to get.
But if we hold another visionof what we dream, of, what's
possible, then we're more likelyno guarantees, but we're more
likely to get that.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
Yeah yeah, just proof , like there's always more
layers right as things unravel,we unravel, as things unfold, we
unfold, systems unfold, weunfold like yeah I kind of knew
that there was that fatalism inthere, but it wasn't until that
moment when you said the wordelder.
(47:30):
Just touched it and, um, there'sa some, some little veil that
was just like really gentlyremoved.
So I can see that and and tendtend to there.
So I'm sure we'll be talkingabout it in our next session.
(47:53):
Thank you so much, and thankyou for that's beautiful, for
everything always for everything.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
Thank you, too, it's a pleasure.
Thank you For everything.
Thank you, too, it's a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Thank you.
If you'd like to work withJulia, her next live online
group course starts May 25th.
It is a nature-based parts workgroup course.
This coursework encapsulatesinner child work, self-talk,
(48:42):
self-love, reparenting andovercoming limiting beliefs all
in one.
Reparenting and overcominglimiting beliefs all in one.
It's a form of parts worksimilar to internal family
systems, but with moreaspirational components for a
spiritual life.
This is right up our alleycrybabies.
The link to learn more and signup is in the show notes.
(49:02):
There's a payment plan optiontoo.
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Subscribing, rating andreviewing are amazing and they
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And you listening, you sharingwith your community is the very
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(50:05):
So thank you, crybabies, Thankyou for your support.
Earworm theme music by the verytalented Kat Otteson, Sound
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Keep questioning, keep feeling,keep rebelling in all the ways
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