October 22, 2024 • 35 mins
Claire Mansi, brings her remarkable experiences to the forefront.
From her early days with the Fire Victim Support Unit in East Sussex to becoming a pivotal member of the London Fire Brigade's arson task force, Claire has seen it all.
In this episode, Claire unveils her innovative SAFE Project, aimed at transforming young offenders' views on the deadly consequences of arson. Despite setbacks like the disbandment of her task force, Claire's impact on youth and communities continues to challenge and inspire.
We broaden the discussion, exploring the international realm of fire investigation and the dynamic growth of organizations like the UK Association of Fire Investigators and the International Association of Arson Investigators.
With personal stories and reflections, this episode highlights the evolution of gender dynamics within the field, showcasing how women are reshaping fire investigation with their keen attention to detail and collaborative spirit.
Celebrate the strides towards diversity and inclusivity, as we advocate for a more equitable professional environment for future generations, including Claire's own daughter. This episode is a tribute to the transformative changes in the field, as diverse voices and international participation lead the way to a more inclusive future.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, welcome to CSI on Fire, the podcast that takes
you behind the scenes of thefire investigation community.
I'm your host, Mike Moulden,and episode after episode, we'll
attempt to excavate the oftendifficult but always fascinating
world of the fire investigator.
Hello, welcome to CSI on Fire,your fire investigation podcast.
(00:27):
I've got a fantastic guest ontoday.
I have got the other half ofthe Mansi crew, I've got Claire
Mansi.
So welcome to the podcast,Claire.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Thank you for having me as we normally do, claire.
Take us through your background, take us through your fire
investigation career and howyou've ended up on the podcast
today.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Well, I don't quite know how I've ended up on the
podcast today, but I can takeyou through where it all started
.
I suppose my background back inthe mid-90s, shall we say I had
a great time.
I worked for Fire VictimSupport Unit in East Sussex unit
(01:08):
in East Sussex.
I ran that.
That introduced me to peoplewho had had a fire or some sort
of catastrophe in their life.
They were basically lefthomeless.
Some of them had absolutelynothing at all except the
slippers that they were standingin.
When the fire brigade rescuedthem, myself and my team would
come along in a basically amotor home and we would scoop
them up and we would give themthat initial comfort food,
(01:33):
clothing and we would get themtemporarily rehoused.
It was very humbling for mebecause I don't well, obviously
there are a lot of people outthere who have seen people with
absolutely nothing, but when itbecomes bereavement children,
pets it's quite humbling.
I also got involved with victimsupport and witness support.
(01:55):
So I was in and out of courts,in and out of homes.
That was all very interestingand got me into, shall we say,
the fire.
I like this.
I would like to go further.
I joined the London Fire Brigadein 2004 and became one of six
arson task force practitioners.
I was given the whole of thenorthwest of London so I had
(02:19):
nine, I think, boroughs, some ofthe most difficult don't want
to shout out because theyprobably have really improved by
now, but in that time therewere some very difficult
boroughs who had a lot of fires,mostly deliberate.
It was a big problem, the arson.
Being an arson taskforcepractitioner, I set myself a
(02:43):
goal of trying to the syndromeof it's just a black bag, so
we'll just leave it.
We'll know it wasn't and knowit isn't, because one black bag
becomes another one becomes ahuge pile and then somebody, for
whatever reason, will come andset fire to it and cause
devastation.
So that was very interesting.
(03:04):
I got into the mental health,the MAPA meetings in the council
, probation.
I got into going into youthoffenders into prisons.
I really tried to get in thereand understand and try and give
training, guidance where I could.
And in the schools there were abig problem in the areas that I
(03:26):
were with young people who forsome reason boredom.
Was it A grudge?
I don't like the look of you, Idon't like your family, for
whatever ethnicity, they love toset fires to their school or to
their homes or to otherpeople's homes because of a
grunt, we're going into schoolsand if anybody's ever gone into
(03:47):
a school and sat or stood or satin front of year 10, 11, and 12
as a female in uniform saying,now, then listen to me like what
?
Who are you?
So I came up with a solution.
I thought, right, I'm not goingto be beaten here.
(04:08):
So I came up with somethingwhich I called the SAFE Project,
which stood for Stop ArsonForever.
So basically, I would go into aschool or a probation, wherever
I was asked to do this, on astage in their assembly or
whenever they wanted me to do it.
I would recreate, behind acurtain, a burnt out flashed
(04:32):
over, whatever scenario.
So if somebody there wasproblems in school, it would be
school desks or something.
It would be a home of a youngperson and in there I would ask
the fire brigades that I workedwith the crew to bring me burnt
items of furniture, mobilephones, laptops, anything.
(04:54):
The children, the young peoplethey hated being called children
.
You got them right there whenyou said children, well, I'm not
a child.
I would go in and do my spielabout what.
It would tell me what the wordarson means, that kind of thing,
and try and get a consequenceof what they left behind.
Well, here was me saying thisis what you've left behind.
(05:31):
So there was a path throughthis debris that they could walk
through so they could get thesmell and the sense, they could
touch certain items that wereobviously I would let them touch
and they would walk through insilence.
It was pretty powerful stuff.
(05:52):
And then we'd come back and thenwe'd have a conversation and
I'd say who has ever set fire toanything?
And all the teachers that werethere you know well, yeah, I
have.
I lit a cigarette because Ismoke, or bonfire in the garden,
you've got a gist.
So this was.
I won an award for that, whichwas quite nice.
Unfortunately, as I say, thearson tussles was disbanded, so
kind of that went wayward aswell, which is a shame because
(06:14):
it still would be powerful.
So, who knows, you never saynever In the arson.
Being an arson investigator, Iwas with my colleagues and with
Peter Mancy we came up with whatwas called the 10-stage system
for serial arson investigators.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
And it says what it says on the tin.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
There are 10 stages, kind of very briefly.
Stage one is this has beenhighlighted you have a fire, so
you have to identify thegeographical area of where the
fire occurred.
Then stage two you would go andgather all fire brigade data.
Now the reason that the Arseneprosecution has always been kind
(06:58):
of so low is because this isreally intensive and it takes a
long time to gather thisinformation.
So that's why it does take sucha long time to actually
prosecute, arrest and prosecutesomebody.
Stage three you would then goto the police.
Now we had a desk at thepartnership desk at the Met
(07:19):
Intelligence Bureau with ourgood friend Bob Mill who worked
there, and I used to go down andsit in the Met Intelligence
Bureau and sit with Bob and Iwas allowed to look through all
their data for my geographicalarea and what we London Fire
Brigade would call deliberateand arson the police because
(07:40):
they got there after the eventso they were just left with this
chart, whatever they werecalling it criminal damage.
Once you started getting thosetwo pieces of information
together, you really startedgetting a picture of what was
going on.
So then obviously we plot, Iwould plot all this data and the
good old I was always a goodold pin on a map person because
(08:03):
it's visual and I'm a kind ofvisual learner, if you like.
So once you've got all theselittle pins red for fire, blue
for police, and then anothercolour for the council, because
councils just put fires out,they don't tell anybody it
became really quite a visuallooking map.
So, stage six you wouldidentify the first callers.
(08:25):
Very interesting, because whenthere is a fire, generally
speaking there's more than oneperson whose phones can be
multiple, and then you identifyand have a conversation with
those people.
You can learn an awful lot fromwhat people say, and just how
you said you like ramblers, butpeople do talk too much when
(08:46):
they're trying to hide something.
It's like oh well, youshouldn't have said that,
because now I know you're alittle, I'm going to have a
closer look at you.
Then a case conference obviouslyI think that's all the parties
that you come in Fire Brigade,police, council, whomever,
housing Association and thenthis would be explained to them
(09:06):
and then we would develop anaction plan.
More importantly, milestones.
You've got to make peopleaccountable, give them a task
and say I want this informationby, and then you can try and
keep it a tight knit and whenpeople think they're working
together, especially with thepolice and the fire brigade, it
becomes oh, this is good.
Basically, nine and 10 is bynine.
(09:30):
You've agreed the action plan,you've looked at it, you look at
the milestones.
Hopefully then you have hadsomebody in mind, a name may
have popped up and the policeand you could then look, always
go back to the time of the fireas well.
I found in my time that if yougo back, no matter what time, it
(09:51):
was the amount of people thatset the fires.
They actually come back at thesame time.
So that was kind of interesting.
And with that work I, togetherwith everybody else, we managed
to arrest, prosecute and put inHer Majesty's pleasure, as was
then, three arsonists.
Yeah, is that a funny thing tosay?
(10:11):
I'm pleased that I put threepeople.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
No, I mean everyone knows that serial arson and
arson it's very difficult toprosecute and to prove beyond
reasonable doubt.
It's very difficult.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Absolutely, and the backroom work is as important as
being on the front line.
That's obviously, of course,but the people that have the
opportunity to work and gothrough the minutiae of this
information?
It's important and it does workwhen it's implemented.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Through my policing time.
The role of the analyst isincreasing and increasing.
It just sounds.
You were obviously on theprevention side and also very
much on the analyst side, andnow they would do it with a
computer.
But I'm also very visual.
I like to see things like amind map and I like a big
whiteboard with a spider andbasically loads of ideas coming
off it.
But did you see escalation,starting from the black bins to
(11:06):
wheelie bins and then obviouslywe know that just because today
it's a wheelie bin, welltomorrow you could be a school
and then a firefighter losestheir life or a member of the
public loses their life.
So did you see an escalationthere with the offenders and the
things that you were doing?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Absolutely, yes, definitely, and the unfortunate.
I suppose maybe that's thewrong word, but I'll use that
word.
The unfortunate thing is thatwhen people I'm thinking of one
particular area, quite a largeblock of flats people had lived
in deprived area.
It was not good.
However, the people that livedthere loved living there.
(11:41):
It was their family, they allknew each other, they all looked
out for each other, and thisparticular person, over a 16
year period, had been settingfires, started in the bin chutes
, black bins, then progressed toputting bins on fire from
(12:06):
various floors.
So, going down the bin chute,small fires in the lifts.
So he was escalating from binfires into lifts, which that
person would set a bin fire, ablack bin, on fire in the lift.
That person would then leaveand send the lift up.
(12:30):
So whoever was waiting to open,which happened, you can imagine
it was like a wow, fireball.
How do you combat that?
Well, I was brought in and itsounds obvious, and this is why
I said it's unfortunate.
It sounds obvious, but it isn'tobvious to people, because
people were just frightened.
(12:51):
The first thing that I did wasget everybody, all the
interested parties, togetherwith the community, the
residents that live there.
We hired a hall and in we went.
Now the community said the firebrigade, turn up and do nothing
.
If they turn up at all, thefire brigade were turning to a
(13:13):
bin fire, so they'd come and putthe bin fire out and then
they'd leave no sort ofcompensation because it's a bin
fire.
The police well, they wouldn'tturn up at all because it's a
bin fire.
The community were allterrified but didn't know who to
talk to and couldn't understandwhy people didn't talk to them
(13:34):
because it's a black bag.
So at this meeting weintroduced each other and
everyone was happy and the firebrigade said this, and the
police said that, and everyonehad a cup of tea and a biscuit.
And then I said so we've gotthe fire brigade here and the
police here, so tell us afterall.
This time you don't have to sayit out loud, but come to us
(13:55):
afterwards.
Who do you think's doing this?
Well, the hands went up aroundthe room and you know how you
have to sort of think, beprofessional, don't act
surprised.
But myself, the police in thefar away, we were like what?
And then we put the councilinvolved and I said council,
right, let's put cameras in thelifts.
And we did, and within twoweeks that person was called
(14:19):
setting fire in a lift with abin.
So it's easy for me to.
We should all speak to eachother more, but it does work.
If you can get collaborativeworking and get over the I don't
do that and you don't do this.
Come together and it can work.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, definitely, and I think just I picked up on
something you said there even inan area which got social
deprivation some of the boroughsof London but people still have
to live there.
95%, 98% of people are goodpeople still.
They've still got to raisetheir kids.
They don't want their kidsdying from a fire inside a lift,
for example, etc.
Etc.
And also I think certainlylater on in my career, we saw
(14:59):
interactions, much moreinteractions with fire service,
police service, on jointinitiatives, on joint training.
So I think it's fantastic thatwe need to work together and
collaborate and as we're doingnow, to be honest, just chatting
about things and understandingsome of the initiatives that can
be taken.
But are you aware that's stillgoing on?
Does London Fire Brigade stillhave an analyst sort of section?
(15:20):
Are they still kind ofundertaking that work?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I don't know about now, to be honest, but I know
when our team was disbandedthere wasn't anything going on
at all.
So whether or not, hopefullyyou know how it is you reinvent
the wheel.
Well, I hope that they have,because it does work.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
I mean certainly in the police service.
We tend to reinvent the wheel.
Every time we get another newsenior ranking comes along with
the same idea that somebody hadseven years ago but disbanded
for whatever reason.
But yeah, fantastic, thanks forgoing through those steps as
well.
Really interested.
Did you find that the callersthat were sometimes the callers
were actually the arsonists?
Was there any inference of that?
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yes, and whilst I have a phone, mobile phone I'm
really boring with it.
It's to make a call and answera call and take some photos,
obviously.
But nowadays, mobile phones,people who do things that they
shouldn't do they can't helpthemselves but video themselves
(16:21):
doing it, which is great,because what you've done in the
past is hand the phone over.
Yeah, so there was a lot ofwhen I, as I said, used to go
back to the scene of a fire,depending on what time of the
day or night it was, I would gowith either in my vehicle or, if
(16:42):
it was very difficult, go witha fire engine.
So I had sort of backup, so tospeak, fire crew.
And it's amazing when you startlooking at who is actually
looking at you, knowing whatyou're doing, and it's thinking,
oh right, okay, I'll just passthat on to yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
I mean from a crime scene point of view.
I always stress to when I usedto do some training for uniform
if someone comes up and startsasking you questions, get their
name, who are they, why are theyasking questions and it sounds
a bit of a cliche, but I thinkit's very common, particularly
with arsonists, for them to comeand obviously be there at the
time.
The fire crews are there andhopefully the police service are
there to actually watch whatthey've created.
(17:19):
So that's really important.
One of the things that used tobe taught I'm not sure it is,
I've certainly mentioned itduring my time is that don't be
afraid and I'm not sure how itwould go with data protection,
all that good stuff now butcertainly take some photographs
of the crowd to see who's there,and take some pictures of
people who are actuallyattending the fire itself to see
if there's anyone that you knowor is highlighted on your
(17:41):
hotspot, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Indeed.
Yeah, look out for the flags.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Yeah, exactly Now, listen, clay, your hot spot, so
to speak.
Indeed, yeah, look out for thetags.
Yeah, exactly now, listen, clay.
You've not really coveredeverything.
I think you've got somecertifications behind your name.
Obviously you've been involvedin the iwai for a long time
evidence collection, technician,etc.
Etc.
Tell us about, let's move on toyour kind of all your
involvement, which is massive interms of the IWI, the UK AFI
and now obviously the EuropeanAFI as well.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Okay, I joined the international in.
When did I join theinternational?
It'll come back to me UK AFI.
Let's start there and then I'llthink about the international
UK AFI.
It started in 2003.
My membership number is 007.
So I was there right at thebeginning.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Brilliant 07.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
So I was there right at the beginning.
Brilliant In City Hall.
I still to this day don't knowhow Dr Manci got City Hall for
the inaugural, but there you go,he did.
It was a great venue, a snowyday and we didn't expect too
many people to turn up.
And lots of people came on thatfirst day and that was the
(18:45):
indication this has to go in theright direction, because people
from all over the country cameand it was a snow blizzard too,
so they still came.
Just a funny thing.
I thought, right, it's theinauguration, peter's driving
this.
So I made a cake.
It was ginormous, this cake,and it ended up on the magazine
(19:05):
cover, if you don't mind.
It was just a hoot.
I thought it was funny, butthat's beside the point.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
It's a very British thing to do.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Yeah, a certain person, our very good friend,
john Galvin.
He christened me Claire theCake, so thank you, john.
It's still there.
We started the chapter, whichis important because in those
days it's still now.
But in those days the IAAI, ifyou wanted to be a chapter,
become a chapter, you justneeded a handful of people,
(19:35):
enthusiastic people, to bringthis chapter together, which we
became an offshore chapter ofthe international.
So in 2004 was the first timethat we then went out to well,
my first out to the States tothe week long international
training, and I've been goingever since and so has Peter.
(19:55):
It's now on 20 years, obviously, that we've been involved with
the international, the UK.
I was initially involved for 15years and sort of heavily
involved in the conferences anddirector of administration and
was sort of well involved, likeyou do.
(20:16):
But now I'm actually back nowon the board of the UK AFI,
which I'm very happy about, andtry to, obviously to keep being
involved and being verysupportive of the conferences
that we do with the twoconferences, the summer and the
(20:38):
AGM.
During my time on the IAAI, Ikind of thought, should I get
more involved?
And I thought, yes, I should.
So in 2019, I went for electionas a director on the board and
was successful and oh, this willbe great, says I, and Coney did
it.
So I actually had three yearsnon-attendance because nobody
(21:02):
could go anywhere.
So I had a three-year virtualtime on the board, but still it
was very interesting.
Learned a lot, as you do inthese things, so that was great.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
2000 and after that, 19 I hope I don't upset them by
saying this, but it is veryamerican-centric, the iwi, and
hence why we have chapters allaround the world.
But my my view I'm going to putmy view out it could be better
represented, I think,internationally.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yes, I would agree with you.
Yes, without a doubt.
All sorts of morerepresentation from different
quarters of society, let me say,is a nice way of saying it
could be represented on theboard.
But it is what it is.
The voting I went again in 23.
(21:50):
And the voting apathy, not onlyfrom those who live in America,
around the world, voting isjust a shocker.
I just thought, well, let's keepinvolved with it.
I just thought, well, let'skeep involved with it because I
am passionate about it.
I believe in it.
It does a lot of good thingsfor a lot of people.
(22:13):
The training is superb and isfree.
And it's just.
Cfi trainer is just fantastic.
Who hasn't taken a module, or10 of them?
It's just great.
Why wouldn't you?
But then, as I said a littlewhile ago, all those years ago
(22:33):
when Peter and I first becameinvolved, it needed the handful
of people to become a chapter.
These days it's dear.
Don't quote me, I should knowthis.
I think it's 25 members.
Okay, 25 members to become achapter.
Well, in america there arecertain criteria that you have
(22:54):
to have to become aninvestigator, whereas the rest
of the world does not have tomeet that criteria.
Yeah, and it's for their lawsand there we won't go into that.
But you understand what I mean.
Yeah, exactly.
(23:18):
For outside America to have acountry that has got 25 persons
who are eligible to become wasjust impossible, so they would
never be able to embrace theofferings of the international.
Hence the European Associationwas born.
We have one person from thiscountry, one person from that
country, two people from thatcountry, in Europe obviously,
(23:39):
who were delighted that at lastthey could go to training, they
could be part of thisorganisation, and so what?
There's just one in a country.
Well, it's a small country, andwhy shouldn't they be the full
benefit?
So now, of course, we haveobviously lots of members from
(24:00):
all sorts of European countries,I'm very pleased to say, and of
course, abroad you don't justhave European you can become a
member.
But we're focused in Europe andit's just great.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
I see Thomas is on there from Finland.
You've got Denmark there,you've got, I know, as well as
some from the Gulf area,obviously from Dubai.
Mohammed has come to those twolast conferences as well.
It's good, I guess, becausebefore that if it wasn't
American-centric, it was kind ofUK-centric in the sense of UK
was another chapter, the nearestchapter.
So I think it's fantastic.
(24:32):
And isn't it still free to signup if you're already a member
of another chapter?
Am I right in saying that?
Speaker 2 (24:38):
For us, for the European, yes.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah, yeah.
So free to go and tell us aboutyou've got a conference coming
up, which is why one of thereasons I really wanted to get
you on early and we're going torelease this as a special
actually We've got a conferencecoming up in Barcelona, I think.
Tell us about that.
Who's coming, what you got.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Let's just go back and not forget the Irish chapter
of course, oh yeah, of course.
So, yes, barcelona, it's athree-day conference and the
first day of the conference arelive burns.
So we're on the conference,barcelona Harbour area, and
(25:15):
we're going to have three burncells.
Maybe should I be telling youthis, but I've already said it
now.
So three burn cells, three burncells.
I'm not going to tell youwhat's in them.
There we are, you've got tocome along and find out.
And then we're going to havesome other periphery burns, a
bit like sort of burn to learnscenarios.
Obviously, everybody is verywelcome.
(25:37):
It's going to be a lot of funas well as powerful learning,
because to learn when you watchthings burn is always the best
way.
And then, obviously, when thefire is out and you can then
examine, you can look at, youcan identify.
That is how you learn, gettingyour hands dirty, so to speak.
We then have two classroom daysin Barcelona.
(26:02):
We've got some speakers fromaround the world coming which is
very exciting.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
I think you've got Mike Forbes coming from
Australia.
I think you've got Leverhulmecome and talked about DNA, so
it's a real crossbed ofinformation.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Yes, it is a mix and it'll be a great event and I've
become president.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yeah, I was waiting for you to mention that you are
the incoming president, so willyou get kind of.
You are the incoming president,so will you get kind of sworn
in at the conference, or howdoes it work?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
It's so busy that we haven't really figured that when
that transition from Albert andmyself will happen, I think
we'll probably have a handshakeon the fire ground.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Yeah, done, that's it Well done.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Good luck, something like that.
I'm very excited about that.
That'll be good.
It'll be a great achievementfor me.
I've kind of worked hard and Isuppose my husband.
I'll be able to put him in hisplace, won't I?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yes, yeah, because you're both presidents or
ex-presidents.
I don't think has Pete everbeen on the board of the
International.
I'm not sure has he.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yes, he was president .
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Yeah, so you're basically trying to compete with
each other, which is alwaysgood, I think, in any long-term
relationship.
But I think just to kind ofyou've been to, as far as I can
see, apart from the COVID ones,obviously, I think you've been
to every internationalassociation's sort of
International Association'sannual training conference, and
so the wealth of what you'veseen and who you've met and the
type of change have you seen amassive change from the very
(27:31):
origins all the way up, fromboth UK AFI and also on the
international stuff.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
I think when I first went to an international
conference forgive me, I can'tquite remember when the first
one was, but all those years agothe noticeable thing then to
now is how few female delegatesthere were.
Yeah, Okay, and the husbandswere always able to bring their
(28:02):
wives, girlfriends, etc.
Yeah, bring their wives,girlfriends, et cetera.
And it was so noticeable thatthere were lots of ladies who
came but didn't contribute,didn't sit in the class.
Now there are even more ladiesthat come because they've heard
they call it spousal programme,but the ladies and gentlemen, I
might add, came, but now theroom is full of a mixture of
(28:28):
male and female investigatorsfrom all walks of life doing all
sorts of differentinvestigations.
And it's great, great to seethat that's a real positive way
forward, that if this is yourpassion, we get lots of students
asking us oh, is it for me?
And it's like, just go for it,Just go for it If it's what you
(28:53):
really want to do.
When I did the safe program,their hands covered in soot.
And when I did like aninvestigation with the
firefighters and the police, andyou go into buildings and
you're looking for this, thatthe other who doesn't want to
come out smelling a soot.
I mean it's just great.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
I see that in the police training that I do.
And also only yesterday Iactually had a female, who was a
Canadian actually, who did herMSC at Strathclyde and then has
been doing some wildfire sort ofwork in Canada and she
contacted me because of the CSIpodcast.
It's kind of getting out therethat and I've seen a lot of
messages saying any advice andthat kind of stuff and that's
(29:29):
fantastic.
But from a crime scene point ofview I mean it's a very female
dominated world.
Now when I first started in1999, 2000, it was very male
dominated.
But now most CSI units when Ido training now, if I look at a
class of 12 students, I'd saytwo of them are men and the rest
are all females.
And I think that's good in thesense of I think females are
(29:50):
better, they've got no ego aboutthings, they've got better
attention to detail, I think andit's starting to become, if you
look at some of the old firmsin the UK, very male dominated
and even on this podcast we'vehad MJ, lucy, jess yourself.
It's kind of balancing out, Ithink.
And so it's interesting thatwe've seen the shift in that
(30:11):
pattern because at the end ofthe day, I mean you and I are
very passionate about fireinvestigation but it's not for
everybody and if you're notprepared to get dirty, you're
not prepared to get cold and wetand be a bit miserable at times
because you're in a burnt roomor a burnt out house or factory
or something and it's not foreverybody, but it is fascinating
, there's no doubt about it.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Absolutely and hopefully, the days I'm
obviously married to somebody.
Is there anybody out there whohasn't heard of him, I mean?
But I work and do not work inhis shadow at all, and I think
females over the past yearsinvestigators, the whole field
(30:52):
of fire may have thought thatthey were not as well thought of
.
People thought they couldn't dothat particular job as well,
and in my career in Fire Brigadeand outside I have had that.
Why do you both want to bemembers of an organisation?
(31:13):
Pete is a member, isn't thatgood enough?
Whoa?
But you know, I am myindividual and I am a
professional and why don't youcome and ask me?
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Did you ever get any?
Just on that point, I wasinterested when you said about
the spousal program or thesethings.
Did you ever get any feedbackfrom the other wives to say,
well, hang on, what are youdoing, why aren't you coming
with us as opposed to sitting in?
Did you ever get any negativefeedback that way?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Not from the spouses In the early days.
Plenty from the other gentlemenin the early days.
Plenty from the other gentlemanin the room.
Why aren't you on the spousalprogramme?
Speaker 1 (31:52):
I can just imagine it , I can hear it.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Yes, which fortunately I am the person that
I am and, just as my husbandwould say, you give them that
look and they don't say any morebecause they know, don't say
anything else.
It was a very male testosteronedominated field at one time, I
(32:18):
would think I would honestly say.
But now there are so manypeople, as the generations maybe
one end drift, so those thoughtare sort of disappearing and
new generation now, and theyoung people now who are at
college, university, school,whatever they're doing, are
(32:40):
taking up this great field ofwork, are realizing do you know
what it's equal?
We can both do this jobexcellently in our own way and
it should be embraced mostdefinitely.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah, I mean I think of my daughter and I can't ever
see my son following myfootsteps.
But my daughter definitely.
Because if you say to mydaughter, oh, you know it's
dirty, it's not very pleasant,she's more up for it than
anybody else.
She's right.
Yeah, I'm getting stuck in here.
So, yeah, listen, claire.
Unfortunately we are runningtowards the end of our time, but
just to sort of emphasize again, european Association
(33:17):
Conference on the 11th, 12th and13th of November coming up in
Barcelona.
It's a fantastic program.
Three-day program Burn to LearnI mean everyone knows it's a
fantastic program.
Three-day program burn to learnI mean everyone knows it's
about pizza.
Your husband's burn to learnevery christmas, and I think as
well.
I prefer to see things and thenget taught the theory.
I kind of reverse engineer itif you like, and I find it much
better that way.
(33:37):
But yeah, just to say fantasticprograms.
You've got some fantasticguests on there as well.
I wish I could come.
If I could come, I would, butI'm still in Saudi at that time.
But anything else you wanted tomention today, Anything else we
haven't spoke about just before, we unfortunately have to call
it a day.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
No, thank you for the opportunity.
It's been great to meet you,talk to you through the airwaves
and just everybody out there.
We are all equally doing whatwe can to make everybody in our
environment a better and saferplace, and the more that we can
keep working together andcommunicating together, then the
(34:13):
better world it's going to be,because we know how dangerous it
is yeah, definitely, and Ithink in tough times as well
policing wise and fire wise wealways seen jobs go up at tough
times in the uk, except just ishaving a bit of a tough time at
the minute, so it's onlyincreasing.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
So I think collaboration, and exactly when
you need it most to talk topeople and to discuss things and
work together is when probablythe funds aren't there, but
there's nothing stopping people,I think just communicating and
seeing the number of cases I'vebeen involved with just ended up
with a positive result justthrough a phone call or a
flippant comment about a certainaspect of that case.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Absolutely.
Partnership working has alwaysbeen the way to go and should be
the way still in the future.
Never be afraid to pick yourphone up.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Yeah, I mean that is a problem these days, isn't it?
Much people are into texting oremail, whereas there's no
problem picking up the phone.
So all right, claire, thanks soso much.
I really appreciate your time.
Good luck at the cup of teainauguration session.
Thank you very much again forcoming on.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
We'll perhaps have another one again to talk about.
Thank you for giving me theopportunity.
You take care.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Thanks ever so much, claire.
Take care, cheers, bye-bye.
Hey, thank you for listening toCSI on Fire.
(35:38):
Please don't forget to like,subscribe and suggest future
topics on our webpage.
Remember factor nonverba.
Take care, good hunting.
I hope to see you on the nextone.
Cheers.
Hi, welcome to CSI on Fire, the podcast that takes
you behind the scenes of thefire investigation community.
I'm your host, Mike Moulden,and episode after episode, we'll
attempt to excavate the oftendifficult but always fascinating
world of the fire investigator.
Hello, welcome to CSI on Fire,your fire investigation podcast.
(00:27):
I've got a fantastic guest ontoday.
I have got the other half ofthe Mansi crew, I've got Claire
Mansi.
So welcome to the podcast,Claire.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Thank you for having me as we normally do, claire.
Take us through your background, take us through your fire
investigation career and howyou've ended up on the podcast
today.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Well, I don't quite know how I've ended up on the
podcast today, but I can takeyou through where it all started
.
I suppose my background back inthe mid-90s, shall we say I had
a great time.
I worked for Fire VictimSupport Unit in East Sussex unit
(01:08):
in East Sussex.
I ran that.
That introduced me to peoplewho had had a fire or some sort
of catastrophe in their life.
They were basically lefthomeless.
Some of them had absolutelynothing at all except the
slippers that they were standingin.
When the fire brigade rescuedthem, myself and my team would
come along in a basically amotor home and we would scoop
them up and we would give themthat initial comfort food,
(01:33):
clothing and we would get themtemporarily rehoused.
It was very humbling for mebecause I don't well, obviously
there are a lot of people outthere who have seen people with
absolutely nothing, but when itbecomes bereavement children,
pets it's quite humbling.
I also got involved with victimsupport and witness support.
(01:55):
So I was in and out of courts,in and out of homes.
That was all very interestingand got me into, shall we say,
the fire.
I like this.
I would like to go further.
I joined the London Fire Brigadein 2004 and became one of six
arson task force practitioners.
I was given the whole of thenorthwest of London so I had
(02:19):
nine, I think, boroughs, some ofthe most difficult don't want
to shout out because theyprobably have really improved by
now, but in that time therewere some very difficult
boroughs who had a lot of fires,mostly deliberate.
It was a big problem, the arson.
Being an arson taskforcepractitioner, I set myself a
(02:43):
goal of trying to the syndromeof it's just a black bag, so
we'll just leave it.
We'll know it wasn't and knowit isn't, because one black bag
becomes another one becomes ahuge pile and then somebody, for
whatever reason, will come andset fire to it and cause
devastation.
So that was very interesting.
(03:04):
I got into the mental health,the MAPA meetings in the council
, probation.
I got into going into youthoffenders into prisons.
I really tried to get in thereand understand and try and give
training, guidance where I could.
And in the schools there were abig problem in the areas that I
(03:26):
were with young people who forsome reason boredom.
Was it A grudge?
I don't like the look of you, Idon't like your family, for
whatever ethnicity, they love toset fires to their school or to
their homes or to otherpeople's homes because of a
grunt, we're going into schoolsand if anybody's ever gone into
(03:47):
a school and sat or stood or satin front of year 10, 11, and 12
as a female in uniform saying,now, then listen to me like what
?
Who are you?
So I came up with a solution.
I thought, right, I'm not goingto be beaten here.
(04:08):
So I came up with somethingwhich I called the SAFE Project,
which stood for Stop ArsonForever.
So basically, I would go into aschool or a probation, wherever
I was asked to do this, on astage in their assembly or
whenever they wanted me to do it.
I would recreate, behind acurtain, a burnt out flashed
(04:32):
over, whatever scenario.
So if somebody there wasproblems in school, it would be
school desks or something.
It would be a home of a youngperson and in there I would ask
the fire brigades that I workedwith the crew to bring me burnt
items of furniture, mobilephones, laptops, anything.
(04:54):
The children, the young peoplethey hated being called children
.
You got them right there whenyou said children, well, I'm not
a child.
I would go in and do my spielabout what.
It would tell me what the wordarson means, that kind of thing,
and try and get a consequenceof what they left behind.
Well, here was me saying thisis what you've left behind.
(05:31):
So there was a path throughthis debris that they could walk
through so they could get thesmell and the sense, they could
touch certain items that wereobviously I would let them touch
and they would walk through insilence.
It was pretty powerful stuff.
(05:52):
And then we'd come back and thenwe'd have a conversation and
I'd say who has ever set fire toanything?
And all the teachers that werethere you know well, yeah, I
have.
I lit a cigarette because Ismoke, or bonfire in the garden,
you've got a gist.
So this was.
I won an award for that, whichwas quite nice.
Unfortunately, as I say, thearson tussles was disbanded, so
kind of that went wayward aswell, which is a shame because
(06:14):
it still would be powerful.
So, who knows, you never saynever In the arson.
Being an arson investigator, Iwas with my colleagues and with
Peter Mancy we came up with whatwas called the 10-stage system
for serial arson investigators.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
And it says what it says on the tin.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
There are 10 stages, kind of very briefly.
Stage one is this has beenhighlighted you have a fire, so
you have to identify thegeographical area of where the
fire occurred.
Then stage two you would go andgather all fire brigade data.
Now the reason that the Arseneprosecution has always been kind
(06:58):
of so low is because this isreally intensive and it takes a
long time to gather thisinformation.
So that's why it does take sucha long time to actually
prosecute, arrest and prosecutesomebody.
Stage three you would then goto the police.
Now we had a desk at thepartnership desk at the Met
(07:19):
Intelligence Bureau with ourgood friend Bob Mill who worked
there, and I used to go down andsit in the Met Intelligence
Bureau and sit with Bob and Iwas allowed to look through all
their data for my geographicalarea and what we London Fire
Brigade would call deliberateand arson the police because
(07:40):
they got there after the eventso they were just left with this
chart, whatever they werecalling it criminal damage.
Once you started getting thosetwo pieces of information
together, you really startedgetting a picture of what was
going on.
So then obviously we plot, Iwould plot all this data and the
good old I was always a goodold pin on a map person because
(08:03):
it's visual and I'm a kind ofvisual learner, if you like.
So once you've got all theselittle pins red for fire, blue
for police, and then anothercolour for the council, because
councils just put fires out,they don't tell anybody it
became really quite a visuallooking map.
So, stage six you wouldidentify the first callers.
(08:25):
Very interesting, because whenthere is a fire, generally
speaking there's more than oneperson whose phones can be
multiple, and then you identifyand have a conversation with
those people.
You can learn an awful lot fromwhat people say, and just how
you said you like ramblers, butpeople do talk too much when
(08:46):
they're trying to hide something.
It's like oh well, youshouldn't have said that,
because now I know you're alittle, I'm going to have a
closer look at you.
Then a case conference obviouslyI think that's all the parties
that you come in Fire Brigade,police, council, whomever,
housing Association and thenthis would be explained to them
(09:06):
and then we would develop anaction plan.
More importantly, milestones.
You've got to make peopleaccountable, give them a task
and say I want this informationby, and then you can try and
keep it a tight knit and whenpeople think they're working
together, especially with thepolice and the fire brigade, it
becomes oh, this is good.
Basically, nine and 10 is bynine.
(09:30):
You've agreed the action plan,you've looked at it, you look at
the milestones.
Hopefully then you have hadsomebody in mind, a name may
have popped up and the policeand you could then look, always
go back to the time of the fireas well.
I found in my time that if yougo back, no matter what time, it
(09:51):
was the amount of people thatset the fires.
They actually come back at thesame time.
So that was kind of interesting.
And with that work I, togetherwith everybody else, we managed
to arrest, prosecute and put inHer Majesty's pleasure, as was
then, three arsonists.
Yeah, is that a funny thing tosay?
(10:11):
I'm pleased that I put threepeople.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
No, I mean everyone knows that serial arson and
arson it's very difficult toprosecute and to prove beyond
reasonable doubt.
It's very difficult.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Absolutely, and the backroom work is as important as
being on the front line.
That's obviously, of course,but the people that have the
opportunity to work and gothrough the minutiae of this
information?
It's important and it does workwhen it's implemented.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Through my policing time.
The role of the analyst isincreasing and increasing.
It just sounds.
You were obviously on theprevention side and also very
much on the analyst side, andnow they would do it with a
computer.
But I'm also very visual.
I like to see things like amind map and I like a big
whiteboard with a spider andbasically loads of ideas coming
off it.
But did you see escalation,starting from the black bins to
(11:06):
wheelie bins and then obviouslywe know that just because today
it's a wheelie bin, welltomorrow you could be a school
and then a firefighter losestheir life or a member of the
public loses their life.
So did you see an escalationthere with the offenders and the
things that you were doing?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Absolutely, yes, definitely, and the unfortunate.
I suppose maybe that's thewrong word, but I'll use that
word.
The unfortunate thing is thatwhen people I'm thinking of one
particular area, quite a largeblock of flats people had lived
in deprived area.
It was not good.
However, the people that livedthere loved living there.
(11:41):
It was their family, they allknew each other, they all looked
out for each other, and thisparticular person, over a 16
year period, had been settingfires, started in the bin chutes
, black bins, then progressed toputting bins on fire from
(12:06):
various floors.
So, going down the bin chute,small fires in the lifts.
So he was escalating from binfires into lifts, which that
person would set a bin fire, ablack bin, on fire in the lift.
That person would then leaveand send the lift up.
(12:30):
So whoever was waiting to open,which happened, you can imagine
it was like a wow, fireball.
How do you combat that?
Well, I was brought in and itsounds obvious, and this is why
I said it's unfortunate.
It sounds obvious, but it isn'tobvious to people, because
people were just frightened.
(12:51):
The first thing that I did wasget everybody, all the
interested parties, togetherwith the community, the
residents that live there.
We hired a hall and in we went.
Now the community said the firebrigade, turn up and do nothing
.
If they turn up at all, thefire brigade were turning to a
(13:13):
bin fire, so they'd come and putthe bin fire out and then
they'd leave no sort ofcompensation because it's a bin
fire.
The police well, they wouldn'tturn up at all because it's a
bin fire.
The community were allterrified but didn't know who to
talk to and couldn't understandwhy people didn't talk to them
(13:34):
because it's a black bag.
So at this meeting weintroduced each other and
everyone was happy and the firebrigade said this, and the
police said that, and everyonehad a cup of tea and a biscuit.
And then I said so we've gotthe fire brigade here and the
police here, so tell us afterall.
This time you don't have to sayit out loud, but come to us
(13:55):
afterwards.
Who do you think's doing this?
Well, the hands went up aroundthe room and you know how you
have to sort of think, beprofessional, don't act
surprised.
But myself, the police in thefar away, we were like what?
And then we put the councilinvolved and I said council,
right, let's put cameras in thelifts.
And we did, and within twoweeks that person was called
(14:19):
setting fire in a lift with abin.
So it's easy for me to.
We should all speak to eachother more, but it does work.
If you can get collaborativeworking and get over the I don't
do that and you don't do this.
Come together and it can work.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, definitely, and I think just I picked up on
something you said there even inan area which got social
deprivation some of the boroughsof London but people still have
to live there.
95%, 98% of people are goodpeople still.
They've still got to raisetheir kids.
They don't want their kidsdying from a fire inside a lift,
for example, etc.
Etc.
And also I think certainlylater on in my career, we saw
(14:59):
interactions, much moreinteractions with fire service,
police service, on jointinitiatives, on joint training.
So I think it's fantastic thatwe need to work together and
collaborate and as we're doingnow, to be honest, just chatting
about things and understandingsome of the initiatives that can
be taken.
But are you aware that's stillgoing on?
Does London Fire Brigade stillhave an analyst sort of section?
(15:20):
Are they still kind ofundertaking that work?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I don't know about now, to be honest, but I know
when our team was disbandedthere wasn't anything going on
at all.
So whether or not, hopefullyyou know how it is you reinvent
the wheel.
Well, I hope that they have,because it does work.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
I mean certainly in the police service.
We tend to reinvent the wheel.
Every time we get another newsenior ranking comes along with
the same idea that somebody hadseven years ago but disbanded
for whatever reason.
But yeah, fantastic, thanks forgoing through those steps as
well.
Really interested.
Did you find that the callersthat were sometimes the callers
were actually the arsonists?
Was there any inference of that?
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yes, and whilst I have a phone, mobile phone I'm
really boring with it.
It's to make a call and answera call and take some photos,
obviously.
But nowadays, mobile phones,people who do things that they
shouldn't do they can't helpthemselves but video themselves
(16:21):
doing it, which is great,because what you've done in the
past is hand the phone over.
Yeah, so there was a lot ofwhen I, as I said, used to go
back to the scene of a fire,depending on what time of the
day or night it was, I would gowith either in my vehicle or, if
(16:42):
it was very difficult, go witha fire engine.
So I had sort of backup, so tospeak, fire crew.
And it's amazing when you startlooking at who is actually
looking at you, knowing whatyou're doing, and it's thinking,
oh right, okay, I'll just passthat on to yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
I mean from a crime scene point of view.
I always stress to when I usedto do some training for uniform
if someone comes up and startsasking you questions, get their
name, who are they, why are theyasking questions and it sounds
a bit of a cliche, but I thinkit's very common, particularly
with arsonists, for them to comeand obviously be there at the
time.
The fire crews are there andhopefully the police service are
there to actually watch whatthey've created.
(17:19):
So that's really important.
One of the things that used tobe taught I'm not sure it is,
I've certainly mentioned itduring my time is that don't be
afraid and I'm not sure how itwould go with data protection,
all that good stuff now butcertainly take some photographs
of the crowd to see who's there,and take some pictures of
people who are actuallyattending the fire itself to see
if there's anyone that you knowor is highlighted on your
(17:41):
hotspot, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Indeed.
Yeah, look out for the flags.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Yeah, exactly Now, listen, clay, your hot spot, so
to speak.
Indeed, yeah, look out for thetags.
Yeah, exactly now, listen, clay.
You've not really coveredeverything.
I think you've got somecertifications behind your name.
Obviously you've been involvedin the iwai for a long time
evidence collection, technician,etc.
Etc.
Tell us about, let's move on toyour kind of all your
involvement, which is massive interms of the IWI, the UK AFI
and now obviously the EuropeanAFI as well.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Okay, I joined the international in.
When did I join theinternational?
It'll come back to me UK AFI.
Let's start there and then I'llthink about the international
UK AFI.
It started in 2003.
My membership number is 007.
So I was there right at thebeginning.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Brilliant 07.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
So I was there right at the beginning.
Brilliant In City Hall.
I still to this day don't knowhow Dr Manci got City Hall for
the inaugural, but there you go,he did.
It was a great venue, a snowyday and we didn't expect too
many people to turn up.
And lots of people came on thatfirst day and that was the
(18:45):
indication this has to go in theright direction, because people
from all over the country cameand it was a snow blizzard too,
so they still came.
Just a funny thing.
I thought, right, it's theinauguration, peter's driving
this.
So I made a cake.
It was ginormous, this cake,and it ended up on the magazine
(19:05):
cover, if you don't mind.
It was just a hoot.
I thought it was funny, butthat's beside the point.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
It's a very British thing to do.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Yeah, a certain person, our very good friend,
john Galvin.
He christened me Claire theCake, so thank you, john.
It's still there.
We started the chapter, whichis important because in those
days it's still now.
But in those days the IAAI, ifyou wanted to be a chapter,
become a chapter, you justneeded a handful of people,
(19:35):
enthusiastic people, to bringthis chapter together, which we
became an offshore chapter ofthe international.
So in 2004 was the first timethat we then went out to well,
my first out to the States tothe week long international
training, and I've been goingever since and so has Peter.
(19:55):
It's now on 20 years, obviously, that we've been involved with
the international, the UK.
I was initially involved for 15years and sort of heavily
involved in the conferences anddirector of administration and
was sort of well involved, likeyou do.
(20:16):
But now I'm actually back nowon the board of the UK AFI,
which I'm very happy about, andtry to, obviously to keep being
involved and being verysupportive of the conferences
that we do with the twoconferences, the summer and the
(20:38):
AGM.
During my time on the IAAI, Ikind of thought, should I get
more involved?
And I thought, yes, I should.
So in 2019, I went for electionas a director on the board and
was successful and oh, this willbe great, says I, and Coney did
it.
So I actually had three yearsnon-attendance because nobody
(21:02):
could go anywhere.
So I had a three-year virtualtime on the board, but still it
was very interesting.
Learned a lot, as you do inthese things, so that was great.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
2000 and after that, 19 I hope I don't upset them by
saying this, but it is veryamerican-centric, the iwi, and
hence why we have chapters allaround the world.
But my my view I'm going to putmy view out it could be better
represented, I think,internationally.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yes, I would agree with you.
Yes, without a doubt.
All sorts of morerepresentation from different
quarters of society, let me say,is a nice way of saying it
could be represented on theboard.
But it is what it is.
The voting I went again in 23.
(21:50):
And the voting apathy, not onlyfrom those who live in America,
around the world, voting isjust a shocker.
I just thought, well, let's keepinvolved with it.
I just thought, well, let'skeep involved with it because I
am passionate about it.
I believe in it.
It does a lot of good thingsfor a lot of people.
(22:13):
The training is superb and isfree.
And it's just.
Cfi trainer is just fantastic.
Who hasn't taken a module, or10 of them?
It's just great.
Why wouldn't you?
But then, as I said a littlewhile ago, all those years ago
(22:33):
when Peter and I first becameinvolved, it needed the handful
of people to become a chapter.
These days it's dear.
Don't quote me, I should knowthis.
I think it's 25 members.
Okay, 25 members to become achapter.
Well, in america there arecertain criteria that you have
(22:54):
to have to become aninvestigator, whereas the rest
of the world does not have tomeet that criteria.
Yeah, and it's for their lawsand there we won't go into that.
But you understand what I mean.
Yeah, exactly.
(23:18):
For outside America to have acountry that has got 25 persons
who are eligible to become wasjust impossible, so they would
never be able to embrace theofferings of the international.
Hence the European Associationwas born.
We have one person from thiscountry, one person from that
country, two people from thatcountry, in Europe obviously,
(23:39):
who were delighted that at lastthey could go to training, they
could be part of thisorganisation, and so what?
There's just one in a country.
Well, it's a small country, andwhy shouldn't they be the full
benefit?
So now, of course, we haveobviously lots of members from
(24:00):
all sorts of European countries,I'm very pleased to say, and of
course, abroad you don't justhave European you can become a
member.
But we're focused in Europe andit's just great.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
I see Thomas is on there from Finland.
You've got Denmark there,you've got, I know, as well as
some from the Gulf area,obviously from Dubai.
Mohammed has come to those twolast conferences as well.
It's good, I guess, becausebefore that if it wasn't
American-centric, it was kind ofUK-centric in the sense of UK
was another chapter, the nearestchapter.
So I think it's fantastic.
(24:32):
And isn't it still free to signup if you're already a member
of another chapter?
Am I right in saying that?
Speaker 2 (24:38):
For us, for the European, yes.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah, yeah.
So free to go and tell us aboutyou've got a conference coming
up, which is why one of thereasons I really wanted to get
you on early and we're going torelease this as a special
actually We've got a conferencecoming up in Barcelona, I think.
Tell us about that.
Who's coming, what you got.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Let's just go back and not forget the Irish chapter
of course, oh yeah, of course.
So, yes, barcelona, it's athree-day conference and the
first day of the conference arelive burns.
So we're on the conference,barcelona Harbour area, and
(25:15):
we're going to have three burncells.
Maybe should I be telling youthis, but I've already said it
now.
So three burn cells, three burncells.
I'm not going to tell youwhat's in them.
There we are, you've got tocome along and find out.
And then we're going to havesome other periphery burns, a
bit like sort of burn to learnscenarios.
Obviously, everybody is verywelcome.
(25:37):
It's going to be a lot of funas well as powerful learning,
because to learn when you watchthings burn is always the best
way.
And then, obviously, when thefire is out and you can then
examine, you can look at, youcan identify.
That is how you learn, gettingyour hands dirty, so to speak.
We then have two classroom daysin Barcelona.
(26:02):
We've got some speakers fromaround the world coming which is
very exciting.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
I think you've got Mike Forbes coming from
Australia.
I think you've got Leverhulmecome and talked about DNA, so
it's a real crossbed ofinformation.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Yes, it is a mix and it'll be a great event and I've
become president.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yeah, I was waiting for you to mention that you are
the incoming president, so willyou get kind of.
You are the incoming president,so will you get kind of sworn
in at the conference, or howdoes it work?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
It's so busy that we haven't really figured that when
that transition from Albert andmyself will happen, I think
we'll probably have a handshakeon the fire ground.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Yeah, done, that's it Well done.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Good luck, something like that.
I'm very excited about that.
That'll be good.
It'll be a great achievementfor me.
I've kind of worked hard and Isuppose my husband.
I'll be able to put him in hisplace, won't I?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yes, yeah, because you're both presidents or
ex-presidents.
I don't think has Pete everbeen on the board of the
International.
I'm not sure has he.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yes, he was president .
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Yeah, so you're basically trying to compete with
each other, which is alwaysgood, I think, in any long-term
relationship.
But I think just to kind ofyou've been to, as far as I can
see, apart from the COVID ones,obviously, I think you've been
to every internationalassociation's sort of
International Association'sannual training conference, and
so the wealth of what you'veseen and who you've met and the
type of change have you seen amassive change from the very
(27:31):
origins all the way up, fromboth UK AFI and also on the
international stuff.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
I think when I first went to an international
conference forgive me, I can'tquite remember when the first
one was, but all those years agothe noticeable thing then to
now is how few female delegatesthere were.
Yeah, Okay, and the husbandswere always able to bring their
(28:02):
wives, girlfriends, etc.
Yeah, bring their wives,girlfriends, et cetera.
And it was so noticeable thatthere were lots of ladies who
came but didn't contribute,didn't sit in the class.
Now there are even more ladiesthat come because they've heard
they call it spousal programme,but the ladies and gentlemen, I
might add, came, but now theroom is full of a mixture of
(28:28):
male and female investigatorsfrom all walks of life doing all
sorts of differentinvestigations.
And it's great, great to seethat that's a real positive way
forward, that if this is yourpassion, we get lots of students
asking us oh, is it for me?
And it's like, just go for it,Just go for it If it's what you
(28:53):
really want to do.
When I did the safe program,their hands covered in soot.
And when I did like aninvestigation with the
firefighters and the police, andyou go into buildings and
you're looking for this, thatthe other who doesn't want to
come out smelling a soot.
I mean it's just great.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
I see that in the police training that I do.
And also only yesterday Iactually had a female, who was a
Canadian actually, who did herMSC at Strathclyde and then has
been doing some wildfire sort ofwork in Canada and she
contacted me because of the CSIpodcast.
It's kind of getting out therethat and I've seen a lot of
messages saying any advice andthat kind of stuff and that's
(29:29):
fantastic.
But from a crime scene point ofview I mean it's a very female
dominated world.
Now when I first started in1999, 2000, it was very male
dominated.
But now most CSI units when Ido training now, if I look at a
class of 12 students, I'd saytwo of them are men and the rest
are all females.
And I think that's good in thesense of I think females are
(29:50):
better, they've got no ego aboutthings, they've got better
attention to detail, I think andit's starting to become, if you
look at some of the old firmsin the UK, very male dominated
and even on this podcast we'vehad MJ, lucy, jess yourself.
It's kind of balancing out, Ithink.
And so it's interesting thatwe've seen the shift in that
(30:11):
pattern because at the end ofthe day, I mean you and I are
very passionate about fireinvestigation but it's not for
everybody and if you're notprepared to get dirty, you're
not prepared to get cold and wetand be a bit miserable at times
because you're in a burnt roomor a burnt out house or factory
or something and it's not foreverybody, but it is fascinating
, there's no doubt about it.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Absolutely and hopefully, the days I'm
obviously married to somebody.
Is there anybody out there whohasn't heard of him, I mean?
But I work and do not work inhis shadow at all, and I think
females over the past yearsinvestigators, the whole field
(30:52):
of fire may have thought thatthey were not as well thought of
.
People thought they couldn't dothat particular job as well,
and in my career in Fire Brigadeand outside I have had that.
Why do you both want to bemembers of an organisation?
(31:13):
Pete is a member, isn't thatgood enough?
Whoa?
But you know, I am myindividual and I am a
professional and why don't youcome and ask me?
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Did you ever get any?
Just on that point, I wasinterested when you said about
the spousal program or thesethings.
Did you ever get any feedbackfrom the other wives to say,
well, hang on, what are youdoing, why aren't you coming
with us as opposed to sitting in?
Did you ever get any negativefeedback that way?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Not from the spouses In the early days.
Plenty from the other gentlemenin the early days.
Plenty from the other gentlemanin the room.
Why aren't you on the spousalprogramme?
Speaker 1 (31:52):
I can just imagine it , I can hear it.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Yes, which fortunately I am the person that
I am and, just as my husbandwould say, you give them that
look and they don't say any morebecause they know, don't say
anything else.
It was a very male testosteronedominated field at one time, I
(32:18):
would think I would honestly say.
But now there are so manypeople, as the generations maybe
one end drift, so those thoughtare sort of disappearing and
new generation now, and theyoung people now who are at
college, university, school,whatever they're doing, are
(32:40):
taking up this great field ofwork, are realizing do you know
what it's equal?
We can both do this jobexcellently in our own way and
it should be embraced mostdefinitely.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah, I mean I think of my daughter and I can't ever
see my son following myfootsteps.
But my daughter definitely.
Because if you say to mydaughter, oh, you know it's
dirty, it's not very pleasant,she's more up for it than
anybody else.
She's right.
Yeah, I'm getting stuck in here.
So, yeah, listen, claire.
Unfortunately we are runningtowards the end of our time, but
just to sort of emphasize again, european Association
(33:17):
Conference on the 11th, 12th and13th of November coming up in
Barcelona.
It's a fantastic program.
Three-day program Burn to LearnI mean everyone knows it's a
fantastic program.
Three-day program burn to learnI mean everyone knows it's
about pizza.
Your husband's burn to learnevery christmas, and I think as
well.
I prefer to see things and thenget taught the theory.
I kind of reverse engineer itif you like, and I find it much
better that way.
(33:37):
But yeah, just to say fantasticprograms.
You've got some fantasticguests on there as well.
I wish I could come.
If I could come, I would, butI'm still in Saudi at that time.
But anything else you wanted tomention today, Anything else we
haven't spoke about just before, we unfortunately have to call
it a day.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
No, thank you for the opportunity.
It's been great to meet you,talk to you through the airwaves
and just everybody out there.
We are all equally doing whatwe can to make everybody in our
environment a better and saferplace, and the more that we can
keep working together andcommunicating together, then the
(34:13):
better world it's going to be,because we know how dangerous it
is yeah, definitely, and Ithink in tough times as well
policing wise and fire wise wealways seen jobs go up at tough
times in the uk, except just ishaving a bit of a tough time at
the minute, so it's onlyincreasing.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
So I think collaboration, and exactly when
you need it most to talk topeople and to discuss things and
work together is when probablythe funds aren't there, but
there's nothing stopping people,I think just communicating and
seeing the number of cases I'vebeen involved with just ended up
with a positive result justthrough a phone call or a
flippant comment about a certainaspect of that case.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Absolutely.
Partnership working has alwaysbeen the way to go and should be
the way still in the future.
Never be afraid to pick yourphone up.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Yeah, I mean that is a problem these days, isn't it?
Much people are into texting oremail, whereas there's no
problem picking up the phone.
So all right, claire, thanks soso much.
I really appreciate your time.
Good luck at the cup of teainauguration session.
Thank you very much again forcoming on.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
We'll perhaps have another one again to talk about.
Thank you for giving me theopportunity.
You take care.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Thanks ever so much, claire.
Take care, cheers, bye-bye.
Hey, thank you for listening toCSI on Fire.
(35:38):
Please don't forget to like,subscribe and suggest future
topics on our webpage.
Remember factor nonverba.
Take care, good hunting.
I hope to see you on the nextone.
Cheers.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.