August 13, 2024 • 38 mins
What if you discovered that children often sleep through standard smoke alarms? This unsettling fact is just one of the many revelations in our latest episode of CSI on Fire and has implications in your Fire Investigations.
We sit down with Dave Coss, a decorated fire investigator and canine handler, to uncover the critical role of fire investigation dogs in identifying ignitable liquids at fire scenes.
From petrol to ethanol, these dogs are indispensable in forensic investigations, and Dave shares his captivating journey from the army to the banking sector, and finally to the Derbyshire Fire and Rescue Service.
Through professional anecdotes, Dave illustrates the practical challenges and triumphs of working with these remarkable dogs, making this episode a must-listen for anyone interested in the intricacies of fire investigation.
Our conversation then touches on the crucial need for parents to wake their children during a fire due to the ineffectiveness of smoke alarms.
We highlight the operational details of specialized fire investigation teams and the collaborative efforts across regions to enhance fire safety measures.
Don’t miss Dave’s inspiring story of receiving a prestigious award from the Queen, underscoring the invaluable contributions of canine teams to fire investigations. Turn in and turn up for a compelling discussion that shines a light on the often-overlooked professionals of fire safety.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, welcome to CSI on Fire, the podcast that takes
you behind the scenes of thefire investigation community.
I'm your host, mike Moulden,and episode after episode, we'll
attempt to excavate the oftendifficult but always fascinating
world of the fire investigator.
Okay, so welcome to CSI on Fire, your fire investigation
(00:28):
podcast.
This is episode 25.
We've got a fantastic guest ontoday, dave Koss.
Welcome to the podcast, dave.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Good afternoon.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
How's things, how are you doing?
All right, good, yeah, yeah, I'mon a very rare day off today,
so just relaxing a bit.
Excellent.
Now you and I don't actuallyknow each other, dave, but you
sort of come through andy quinna referral from him.
You're a sort of canine handler, which is why I really wanted
you on.
You've done a bit of researcharound smoke alarms as well.
But, as I do with all of ourguests, dave, just start us off
(00:57):
how you got into the fireservice, just tell us a bit
about yourself and how you'veended up, sort of here today.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I I started out, left school, joined the army, did a
year or so in the army, thenwent into various jobs and
eventually ended up settlinginto banking and was very booked
, sat behind a desk.
I decided or my wife talked meinto applying for fire service
back in 1992.
I was very, very fortunate toactually get in first time round
.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Wow, okay, how many years have you been in that kind
of stuff?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
As I say, I joined Derbyshire Fire and Rescue
Service in 1992 and worked myway up from crew manager to
watch manager and then in 2000,I got attached to the fire
safety department or fireprotection as it is now, and
started doing lots of firesafety.
In reality, what happened was Isort of looked at my career and
thought I left banking 10 yearsago to get from behind the desk
(01:48):
and now I'm back behind the deskagain.
So it was then a case of tryingto find some way of getting
back into not into operationsI'm not transferring back out
into the operational side butactually doing something whilst
I was in the fire safetydepartment and that's where the
interest in the fireinvestigation I sort of caught
an eye.
I've been in mountain rescuefor a long time and I've been
working a mountain rescue searchdog for search rescue dog
(02:10):
association for a few years atthat point and I saw somebody
working a fire dog and thought Icould do that and it just so
happened I had a pet dog at homecalled Forge Chocolate Labrador
and a very good friend of minecalled John Ellis, who was the
police dog training sergeant forSouth Yorkshire Police, agreed
to sort of help me train it andset it up.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Brilliant.
Did that sort of get buy-in bythe service?
Then Did they sort of sponsoryou to do that, or how did that
work?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Initially.
No, initially a lot ofresistance.
I mean, I've spoken to CliveGregory, who was obviously the
first dog handler in the UK FireService for Westminster and he
was obviously the first doghandler in the UK Fire Service
for Westminster and he saidexactly the same thing Initially
, a lot of resistance.
A lot of people saw it as agimmick.
A lot of people saw it as justa dog in boots that prances
(02:56):
around and gets loads ofattention and didn't really see
the serious side of the job, ifthat's the right way of saying
it.
They didn't see the dogsactually a very good tool for
fire investigators to use.
Use and I think that's whereinitially, a lot of the friction
came in.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Sure, sure.
I mean, I've had lots of well,both on the police side, from
general purpose dogs and alsoCSI dogs, firearms, that kind of
stuff.
But tell us about thecapabilities of the dog then,
dave.
What can it do?
What can't it do?
Why do we use it at fire scenes?
What's the lowdown with that?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
so the first thing to say is the dog's not going to
solve all your problems.
I think it's getting better now, but there was this sort of
mythical thing that a dog'sgoing to turn up for a fire
investigation and solve theinvestigation without anybody
else doing anything.
And in reality all the dog isis just another tool.
So, as you say, to fireinvestigators, as you reach in
your toolbox for a trowel,reaching your toolbox for a dog,
it's just another method to useto try and locate accelerants
(03:49):
the dog itself is trained tofind.
We like to call them ignitableliquids, not accelerants,
because obviously the term has alegal meaning, whereas we call
them ignitable liquids.
But the dog's basically trainedto find any liquid that is
capable of being set fire to bya naked flame.
The dog should be able to findit.
So petrol, diesel, white spiritfainting as turd, cigarette
(04:10):
lighter fluid, barbecue lighterfluid, ethanol, methanol,
methylated spirits, anythinglike that.
But the main thing for the dogis the dog is going to find it
in its trace format.
So if you imagine walking pastMorrison's petrol station, the
dog isn't suddenly going to turnleft and walk into the station.
It's going to ignore thatbecause it's not looking for a
big scent picture, it's lookingfor a really, really, really
(04:33):
tiny one, and the sort of tracewe're looking at is, if you can
imagine, when you've filled upwith petrol and you've got
petrol on your hands and you'vewiped it on your shirt and
you've then put your shirt inthe wash basket.
You've then washed your shirtand you've wiped it on your
shirt and you've then put yourshirt in the wash basket.
You've then washed your shirtand you've then hung it back up
in the wardrobe.
That's the point the dog'sgoing to step in and find the
trace on the shirt right,fantastic.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
and you kind of said there, I mean, there's all about
the context, isn't it?
You're quite right to say aboutignitable liquids in the sense
of accelerants, because thething that I've learned I've
done a couple reviews and I'vesaid this in a previous podcast,
but the CSIs and the FIs atthat particular job, they've
kind of used the dog as evidencerather than intelligence.
Like you said, it's a tool andit's a fantastic tool and it
(05:14):
gives you an area to search, butthat's not the whole picture,
is it?
You've got to still carry onand do the full works.
If that makes sense, would youagree with that?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, I think, where things have advanced over the
years.
I mean it's what 20, 25 plusyears now since I first started
with a dog.
In the very, very early stagesall we did was search fire
scenes and if we had anindication at a scene then they
would take that away for testing.
Now the dogs have evolved intosuch a tool that if we get an
indication at a scene the CSIswill obviously step in and
(05:47):
recover that sample.
But then, if we then get asuspect, we will search
suspect's clothing, suspect'saddress, suspect's vehicle, the
route the suspect took home, allhopefully in finding other bits
of evidence that police canthen use to start and link the
case together.
For us, if that makes sense, soit's.
It's not just about in themodern investigation now.
It's not just about in themodern investigation now.
It's not just about findinginartable liquid out of the fire
(06:09):
scene.
The fire investigator's stillgot to do his job at the scene
and say, yes, we found petrolwhere we shouldn't find it.
And it's down to theinvestigators to say, yes, I
think this has been anaccelerated fire, I think this
has been used to start fire.
But then obviously the dogwalks the gray area between the
police and the fire basically,and we'll go to the fire scene
(06:30):
initially, but then we'll go toa suspect's address, just like a
drugs dog or a firearms dogwould that you've probably come
across in the csi world.
And if we get an indication,say in the washing basket or on
the shoes by the front door orsomething like that, then we can
assist with the building of thebigger picture yeah, sure, and
I think the other advantage I'veseen with ignitable liquids
(06:53):
dogs is the area you canobviously just take us about.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
If you've got, say you're looking for some
ignitable liquid, it's anoutdoor scene, for example.
You've got reports, you've gotwitness statements saying an
offender's been seen runningaway and maybe discarded
something, what can the dog dofor the fire investigator, the
csi, in that kind of instance?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
so one of the things one of the examples we use when
we're training or teaching.
A friend of mine's put apresentation together and he
basically worked out that you'relooking for one grain of salt
in 20 olympic size swimmingpools.
That's the sort of volume, ifyou like.
When it comes to open areas,that's when the dog comes into
its own, because the dog isworking, the wind's, not the
(07:31):
area.
So it doesn't matter what theenvironment is, it only matters
what the wind is doing in thatenvironment.
There are man-made devices.
There are an item called a pid,which is a detector.
It's basically like a metaldetector and it can sniff
accelerants.
The problem with that is you'vegot to be right over the top of
the accelerator to find it.
So if a dog stood at one sideof a football pitch and it's at
(07:51):
the other side of the footballpitch, if the, as long as he's
downwind of the scent, as longas he's downwind of the vapor,
the dog's going to pick it upand find it and follow it back
to its source.
For the machine to do that youwould have to physically sweep
the entire football pitch untilyou actually passed over the top
of it.
And that's the big advantagefor the dog is that the dog can
very, very quickly narrow itdown for you.
(08:13):
Dogs are better than machines,machines are better than dogs.
They've all got their place.
But the one thing the dog cando is search a vast area, very,
very quickly.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, sure, I mean the pits, for really when the
dog is sourced it or if youhaven't got a dog available.
That's when I've used pids.
Now, if the dog's not availableyou get to an area where the
dog has already indicated.
Then the pids is kind of asecondary confirmation, I guess,
if you like.
But I've seen dogs where theykind of hone in, don't they?
And am I right in sayingthere's kind of a cup or like a
(08:41):
cone and they kind of hone downonto that scent from you can see
a dog.
And I've seen dogs where othersnot me, because I know what's
going on but others have said,oh, don't look particularly sure
, but they're going from left toright and they're looking for
depends on the wind and stuffbut they're looking for that
cone of scent.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (08:57):
yeah, so the one advantage a dog has over a human
is the way the nose isconstructed.
So in a human you have tobreathe in and out through the
same nostril, whereas the dogcan breathe in one way and blow
it out the side.
So what you end up with is thedog that can be constantly
sniffing.
So that's the first thing wow,okay, I didn't know that if you
(09:18):
look at a dog's nose, it's got alittle slit on the side of each
side of its nose where it canblow the air through it.
But the other big key thing isthat dogs' nostrils are
independent of each other.
So you're right in what you'resaying.
If the scent is spreading awayin like a cone shape away from
the source, what the dog will dois it will run to the left-hand
side of the source, get to theedge of it, and then it will run
(09:39):
to the right-hand side and getto the edge of it and then it'll
just keep narrowing down like azigzag and the zigzag just gets
tighter and tighter and tighterand tighter.
But that's because the dog'sgot the ability to direct where
the smell's coming from, whichwe haven't.
So we can walk into a room.
We can say I can smell petrol.
The dog can walk into rooms asI can smell it, but I can tell
it's coming from that cornerbecause they've got that ability
(10:01):
to narrow down the scentfantastic and well, that's news
to me, but that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
What about training for the dogs?
How long does it take to train?
Is there any national standards?
I'm kind of asking youquestions, already know, but for
the audience and stuff, justtake us through the training of
the type of dog that you needand any kind of qualifications
of the dog and you as a handlerneed to sort of come up to.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
So first thing really the national standard wise.
There aren't any nationalstandards at the moment.
The problem we've got is thatevery police force in the
country has a dog section andthey're all signed up to the
national police chiefs councilworking group and they get
directed how they will train,how they will use the dogs and
the rest of it within the fireservice.
There's no national frameworkfor fire dogs, there's no
(10:44):
required, which is a little bitdifficult.
But what we've done is we'vegone down the route of the
police.
So we're actually trained andlicensed by South Yorkshire
Police Dog Section and basicallythey license us to a standard
which has been put out by theNational Association of Fire
Dogs and every 12 months werelicense to that standard.
(11:06):
So it gives us some credibility.
They give us a licensebasically that says if we ever
get called to give evidence incourt we can say my dog has been
trained to this standard andhas passed that standard.
But in the UK and heaven forbidit ever change but in the UK the
dog's indication alone isinsufficient, evidentially, to
(11:28):
be used purely on its own.
So in America dog indicates inthe scene that sufficient
evidence to say an accelerantwas used and we found it In this
country.
The way it works is that thedog will indicate it.
We will hopefully the CSIrecover that sample into a nylon
bag and then that will get sentfor testing and only when
(11:50):
that's proved positive andidentified as, say, petrol or
diesel or whatever, can it beused as evidence in court.
We're in a good place in someways, because it means whatever
the doctor does or says is notrelied on in its own right.
It still has to be backed up bya scientific test yeah, sure.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
So it's basically as we've said already, it's kind of
it's an intelligence as a toolto help you, guide you to the
area of interest possibleignitable liquids.
Then you need to look at,obviously, the context in which
that liquid is and why thatliquid may or may not or should
not be there.
But yeah, and then obviouslycsis would gather it, take it
off, goes for gcms and you get aconfirmation back one way or
(12:29):
the other.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah, I mean, if I give you a prime example, we had
a triple murder a few years agoin Derbyshire where the dog
indicated in the scene and thatscene was tested and it was
confirmed as petrol.
The getaway vehicle which wasused in the job was recovered.
The dog searched the boot ofthe getaway vehicle and an
indication was given in.
The job was recovered.
The dog searched the boot ofthe getaway vehicle and an
indication was given in the bootwhen that sample was tested.
(12:51):
That sample came back as diesel.
So the dog's not wrong becauseit's one of its target
substances.
But clearly that's not a linkto the job and that's why it's
really, really important that wetest the samples and that we
don't just rely on the dogtelling us there's something
there.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Yeah, sure, I've reviewed a couple of and I was
involved with a murder inglasgow and what I saw on that
job was that the dog was usedbut then the area that the dog
had indicated in two places.
They excavated those areas butdidn't really excavate anywhere
else because of the state.
And there's good reason forthat, I suppose, in the sense of
structurally wise, the buildingwas questionable and so they
(13:26):
only excavated in those areas.
But then when I went and Ilooked at the flat downstairs,
there was obviously ignitableliquids there which were in
context.
There was some white spirit,which is what was found in the
flat above.
It's not just about findingignitable liquid, as you quite
rightly said, it's about thecontext and also double checking
that that comes back as an itemwhich should or should not be
(13:47):
there.
And in fact it's an ignitableliquid.
But OK, so for how long does ittake to train?
I mean, you've got an ignitableliquids dog now.
So I'm on my fourth dog now.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
OK, my first dog was a chocolate Labrador called
Fudge in 2001 when we firststarted.
Then we had a Springer calledFreckle, and then we had a very
large working cocker calledDexter, who I've still got he's
now retired, but he's with meand then we've just gone on to
the latest one, which is alittle, very small working
cocker called Ginny, who is abit like a pocket rocket.
(14:17):
She's only two, but she's fullof beans and bouncing around
like a youngster, which is goodfor me because I'm the other end
of my scale now.
So I like actually just standin the middle of the room and
watch the dog jump about allover the place, which is quite
good.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, and I mean that's a trait.
Some dogs aren't cut out for it.
It's the same in the police andstuff.
If you get a general purposedog that's not particularly
aggressive, it's not going to bevery good.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
So you look for those sort of traits, don't you we?
So it will be assessed on dayone and then it'll be the
decision will be made whether wethink we can train it or not.
As far as training goes,there's two real methods.
The first one is a dedicatedcourse, which you need, a six
week dedicated course alongsidea sister called Giddy who's gone
to West Midds Fire and Rescueis there or Dexter was done what
(15:05):
we call trickle train.
So because I had Freckle on therun run, I just sort of brought
dexter along in the backgrounduntil the point where he was
ready to license and then wejust retired freckle and ran
with dexter gotcha.
There's two sort of main waysof doing it so the dedicated
course?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
are you absent for six weeks while you train the
dog, or somebody else train thedog and then you get it back as
a handler?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
it's a team effort, so it's handler and a dog are a
team.
The course that ginny did, weactually ran within knots fire
and rescue so we ran the course,for initially it was going to
be for west mids's dog, but wemanaged to get ginny on the same
course as well, which justmeant we ran two dogs on a
course rather than one, which isa lot easier to do because
you've got to give the dogs resttime in between training.
(15:45):
But in those six weeks you'regoing to train the dog and the
handler together to worktogether as a team, and it
usually takes about the firsttwo or three weeks to train the
dog and then the last threeweeks is train the handler how
to use the dog.
It's a little bit like a dronepilot.
It's all right being able toput the drone in the air, but
you've got to learn how to useit for the task that you want it
to use it for at the end ofthat course do you kind of pass
(16:08):
or fail as a unit.
That's what I say.
You're licensed as a team, sothe dog and the handler are a
team.
So now that I've gone so Iretired from Derbyshire in 2022,
joined Nottinghamshire FireServices part-time doing the
same job.
So we've now trained a seconddog handler and dog in
Nottinghamshire to work theother half of my job.
So I trained the second doghandler and dog in
(16:28):
Nottinghamshire to work theother half of my job.
So it's like a job share.
So Tim and Barney are the othertwo of my role.
I can't work Tim's dog and Timcan't work my dog.
Our license is me and my dog asa team, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Sure, you live with the dogs.
Are they stay-at-home dogs withyou?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
24-7,.
Yeah, I know you can't seebecause it's a podcast, but
Jim's actually laid out on thefloor inside of me Just killed a
few feet at the moment.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yeah, we've had a few technical bits today so
normally I'd be able to see.
But OK, fantastic.
And is ISO going to play anyrole with the dog handling side?
I know it's looming over us onthe FI kind of investigation
side.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
So way back in 2015, I think it was when julian tully
was the forensic regulator Iwent to one of the afi
conferences where she wasspeaking and I actually spoke to
her at length there and shesaid to me at the time the dogs
wouldn't be part of the isoconsideration and the sort of
thinking is that whoever is soif it's the CSI or the fire
investigator that is theaccredited person or for the ISO
(17:32):
purposes, they have to beconfident that the dog and
handler team are competent to dothe role that they are asking
them to do.
Although we're not required to astandard within the ISO, we
have to produce evidence, ifrequested, that we are capable
of doing what they're asking usto do, which is why we've sort
of gone down there the policelicensing route, because we can
(17:54):
produce a police license and saywe have been trained and
licensed to this standard.
And then other things such ascross-contamination measures and
the anti-contamination, whichis the big issue, to the dog and
handler team.
We have to put traceability andaccountability for all our kits
, so the boots that the dogwears when they go into scenes.
Within our unit, every set ofboots is numbered, every set of
(18:18):
boots is sealed in evidence bagsbroken open at the scene, so I
can trace every boot and everyjob that boot's been to since
it's been in service.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Fantastic.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
So you've got that continuity there yeah, basically
that's what we're looking at.
We've got the continuity ofdecontamination if we need it
and how does it work?
Speaker 1 (18:35):
is it the same as your fire kit, or is it tested
afterwards?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
well, this is where it's going to sound really
bizarre, but stick with me.
So we know and one of the casesthat andy quine talked the job
in Leicester where Andy did hisresearch, where we tested petrol
on clothing post-wash.
So we know that washing itemswon't necessarily get rid of any
petrol that is on the items.
(18:58):
We know that when we wash thedog boots which is what we do we
put them in the washing machineand wash them with normal
conditions.
We know that there's a chancethat if there is petrol on the
boot then that's not going toget rid of the petrol off the
boot.
But we also know that the dogis capable of finding it on the
boot if it's there after wash.
So what we do is we would washthem through the washing machine
(19:21):
, we'd lay them all out on thefloor and then we'd get the dog
to check them all before wereseal them and re-bag them.
We know it's potentially goingto be there, but we also know if
it is there, the dog's going tofind it.
So it's the best screeningmethod we can think of.
Sure, to send in the actualboots away in the nylon bag and
getting them gcms tested everytime.
Yeah, sure, which you'relooking three, four hundred quid
(19:41):
a test yeah, yeah, which wouldbe obviously cost prohibited.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
I think there's got to come a point where you've got
to be satisfied, isn't there?
And it sounds like you're doingexactly the right thing?
Okay, fantastic.
I mean, let's talk about.
I know you did some researchand one of your areas I read up
about was sort of smoke alarmsand their effects on waking
children and bits and pieces.
So if you wouldn't mind, dave,just take us through some of
that research and some of theoutcomes and what you found out.
(20:04):
So the background to it.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
In 2012, we had derbyshire probably one of the
biggest cases it's ever going tohave where, unfortunately, we
lost six children in a housefire.
It turned out to be that thedads basically had set the fire.
So one of the issues thatreally, really bugged and a lot
of frs will probably tell youthis is that they'll go to a job
and there'll just be somethingthat's not right.
(20:28):
The case will be the case, butthere's always something that
just doesn't fit within that andit bugs you that you can't work
it out.
And, in this particularinstance, the thing that did us
the first phone call to thepolice, once the fire had been
started, from the mother statedall six children were in the
same bedroom and they weretrapped in the bedroom and
(20:48):
subsequent interviews and policeinvestigations.
Everything else was the parentswere under the assumption that
the children would haveresponded to the smoke alarms
and got into this single bedroomwhere they would be rescued
from, and every single child wasrescued from their own beds.
They hadn't moved, hadn'tstirred at all.
It was one of those littleniggles that just bugged away at
you and bugged away at you andbugged away at you, and I can
(21:09):
remember walking into the officeand a colleague of mine, a
really old school colleague, andI said he asked me what was
wrong and I said this is drivingme nuts.
I can't understand why theydidn't respond.
And he basically said he wasn'tsurprised and had I seen this
video from america?
And he showed me a video fromamerica where kids didn't
respond to a smoke alarm and Ijust thought how come?
(21:30):
I don't know about that ifwe've known about it before?
why do we not know about it now?
I set off on a bit of a missionat that point.
The police did all thetoxicology on the children to
make sure that they weren'tdrugged and there was nothing in
their system that would preventthem from responding.
We had the smoke alarmsthemselves absolutely
forensically tested to death totry and prove that they'd
operated.
And we ended up with thisbizarre situation where we said
(21:52):
we could find no evidence ofthem not working.
Oh, I had to do it.
You couldn't find no evidenceto say they didn't work, but we
can't prove they did.
Yeah, there's a bit of a limbo,but so we always had that in
the back of our mind.
But basically, basically, atthat point I was in touch with
another friend of mine calledNiamh Nick-Dade.
She was at Glasgow Universityat the time, professor Nick-Dade
(22:13):
, and she basically said whydon't you do a study into it?
We set off, basically, and dida small scale study with about
45 children, I think it was, andwe basically tested them with a
standard smoke detector thatwere fitting, the fire service
fitting, and I think it wassomething like 80 or 90 percent
of the children didn't respondat all.
(22:34):
So you'd have a smoke alarmgoing off next to their ears and
they just didn't twitch.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
OK, were they asleep.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Absolutely, yeah.
Yeah, I mean my niece, blessher.
My niece had got four boys, allunder the age of 10 at the time
, and we basically used them asguinea pigs and we tried our
best to wake them up and wecouldn't.
They just slept through everytime, boys more than girls.
Girls, once they got to about10 or 11, started to respond.
But boys absolutely nothing.
Under the age of 10, you coulddrive a steam train through the
(23:03):
bedroom and they wouldn't wakeup.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Wow okay, and did you say 45 children, the initial
study?
Speaker 2 (23:09):
was about 45 children .
Okay, that sort of scared us todeath.
And then a lot of peoplestarted saying so, what you're
going to do about it?
You've opened a can of worms,what you're going to do?
Yeah, and I sort of sat withneve and we had a bit of a
natter and it was basically weneed to do more.
So we managed to secure somefunding and we then did a
(23:29):
further test of I think it was670 children.
We did like a nationwide appealon the bbc and then we tested
all these children.
But in the interim we alsolooked at what we could do to
actually wake them up and wediscovered that a so a low freak
, so a standard smoke alarm isabout 3,000 hertz.
(23:50):
The frequency of the sound Alow frequency, so around about
500 hertz, plus adding onto thata human voice.
So when the smoke alarm sounded, we put a human voice on the
end of it as well, say wake up,the house is on fire.
So we double tested.
So all the 600 kids that wefire.
So we double tested.
So all the 600 kids that we did.
We double tested them.
(24:10):
So we asked the parents to setthe smoke alarm off on one night
and see if they responded andthen on the second night use the
test kit that we'd sent out tothem and see if they woke up.
To that and we went fromcertainly with boys under 10, we
went from sort of 85 90 percentnot waking up to the standard
alarm to only 10 not waking or20 not waking up to the new
(24:33):
alarm that we've given them.
We had an instant reversal.
So 89% of all the kids woke upto the sound.
And when you think about it,logically, because of
generations and development andeverything, people, when you're
born, you're born predisposed tohearing a human voice which is
around about 250, 300 hertz.
You're not predisposed tolistening to the smoke alarm
(24:55):
sounding.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Okay, that makes sense.
If I can explain it in a bitmore detail, it's a bit like we
call it sleeping rabbit syndrome.
So you've got rabbits sat inthe field, it's asleep, it's not
dead.
So all its senses are stillworking.
So the nose detects the smellof a fox coming into the field.
So the nose sends a signal tothe brain to say to the brain
you need to wake up, sunshine,or the fox is going to eat you.
(25:17):
So you need to wake up and runoff.
What we think's happening isyour ears are hearing the alarm.
They're sending the signal tothe brain to say that's a funny
alarm, you need to wake up.
But the brain can't comprehendthat it's danger.
So therefore it doesn't wake youup, so you carry on sleeping,
okay that's probably the bestway I can think of explaining it
yeah, no, that was bang on.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
That was fantastic.
Yeah, that makes total sense.
So was there any sort oflegislative change from come out
of that, or was there anyrecommendations in that regard?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
unfortunately, this is going to sound a bit cruel,
but it's not meant to be.
Unfortunately, in the middle ofall this, we then had the
grenfell disaster and thatbasically took over everything.
At the end of the day andrightly so, when we're talking
about mass loss of life from thecladding and all the stuff that
went with that, it sort of tookover the headlines and
everybody was more interested inthat.
(26:09):
We tried to suggest we didn'tneed a major change, we just
needed a change in how weeducated people.
When we traditionally talkedabout having a fire plan and get
out and stay out and everythingwe used to say to families have
a plan that says, when thesmoke alarms go off, you all
meet in one room or gathertogether and then you get out.
(26:29):
And all we did was change itand say to people when the smoke
alarms go off, go and fetchyour children, because they
won't have woken up, becausethere's no research anywhere in
the world that's ever said acompass mentis adult will not
respond to a smoke alarm.
Okay, so there's no reason whythe smoke alarm won't wake an
adult up.
It's that it won't wake thechildren up.
If the adults wake up, theyjust need to go and fetch the
(26:51):
children okay.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
So there's obviously some sort of maybe some
neurological kind of developmentthing as well that once you get
to puberty or adulthood thatwill register.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
I guess we did see that.
So we split the test subjectsinto naught to 10 and 10 to 16,
obviously boy and girl, and theworst one for not waking up was
boys.
Naught to 10 exactly the bestones for waking up were girls 10
to 16.
Okay, so there is something todo with development and there
was a tentative link to youngmale drivers in the sense that
(27:25):
because it was to do with thefrontal lobe, front part of your
brain development, you've got a17-year-old lad that's just
passed his test and he'shurtling towards a corner, his
eyes, and he's telling him heain't going to make it, he ain't
going to get around that bend,but his brain is ignoring it.
His brain is saying don't worryabout it, you'll get around
there, and it's a similar sortof thing.
So there's tentative bits beendone in areas like that, but
(27:49):
it's one of those things where,for me, I'm not overly worried
if I can't wake the kids up.
The issue is educating peopleto know that they won't wake up
and that you need to fetch themyeah sure yeah, I mean
tragically.
I had a job where three-storytownhouse and the mother was on
the top floor with the childrenin the very top floor and there
(28:09):
was a fire downstairs.
She'd come down the stairs toinvestigate the fire because
obviously she'd been woken by asmoke alarm.
She didn't wake the children up, she expected them to get up
with the alarms going off andthen, when the staircase became
untenable, she couldn't get backup the staircase and,
tragically, the children died.
That's a prime example of ifshe'd have waited two seconds
(28:29):
and just made sure they were upbefore she left, they'd have
followed her downstairs.
For me, it's more abouteducation than legislation, if
that makes sense yeah and more.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Have that plan where you gather the kids first.
Is that basically the overallmessage really?
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yeah, well, it's the education, it's knowing that if
the smoke alarm goes off, youneed to go and fetch them.
That's the bottom line At theend of the day.
They're not going to respond,or there's a high likelihood
they're not going to respond.
And just that split second justto say I need to fetch them to
make sure I've physically gotthem with me up and away when we
leave.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
it's just an education thing for me yeah, are
you still involved with anykind of research or anything
like that?
What's your week look like?
How many jobs are you gettingout to and to get called to?
All tier twos or justfatalities, or how does that
work?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
we don't self-deploy.
So the system we've got I meanthe problem you've got is
different dog handlers areworking different systems across
the country you've only gotabout 15 plus dogs in the teams
in the country and our team inthe east midlands we're the only
one still that is a, aconsortium, so nottinghamshire,
lincolnshire, leicestershire andderbyshire all pay into a
central part, so a quarter ofthe funds is paid for by each of
(29:37):
the brigades.
What that means?
The likes of lincolnshire thatcouldn't afford a standalone dog
team because you're talkingabout 60, 70 grand they're
getting it for 15 grand a yearand they're getting it whenever
they need it.
So because of that and the factthat we're pretty much central
in the country so if you look ata spider web, a lot of the
other teams are out on the limbsof the web, so when they fall
(29:59):
or when they're not availablewe're probably the next nearest
we get asked to go and cover forthem.
We're doing currently about 200jobs a year.
Okay, which equates to aboutthree or four a week.
But it's a little bit likebeing a retained firefighter you
don't know what you're going todo until the bell till the page
goes off and says job.
I mean the job that andy wastalking about, the hinkler road
(30:19):
job, the big explosion.
Me and dexter were on scene for14 days without a break, solid
straight through.
Okay, every day for 14 days.
That's not every job.
You might get a job where, um?
So yesterday I went yesterdayto a job.
It only took three hours.
I was back home within threehours.
So it purely depends on the jobyou can have.
One job takes two days or onejob takes seven days.
(30:42):
We tend to go to most of thebigger jobs because obviously
there's more of a wanting tofind a cause or to check it.
So certainly fatalities wewould nearly always go to a
fatality within our region justto be able to either confirm or
it's just as useful to the CSIsto rule it out as it is to say
there's something there, becausethe coroner is certainly going
to ask did you look for anything?
Speaker 1 (31:04):
sure you said you deployed from home.
So do you work?
Was it seven day on call period, or how's it work like that?
Speaker 2 (31:11):
so what we've got now .
So I'm on a job share.
When I worked for Derbyshireand we covered the region from
Derbyshire, we basically were 247 on call unless I decided to
have a break.
Obviously that's notsustainable long term.
So what we've done now is we'vesplit it between the two of us
so we do seven days on call,seven days off call on your
seven days on call.
(31:31):
If control get a request forthe dog, then they're going to
give it to you first.
We have got a situation whereif they, as happened yesterday
so we're getting two or threerequests at the same time,
because we're covering quite abig region the primary dog
handler is going to get thefirst call and sent to the first
job.
If a second job then comes in,what control will do is they'll
(31:51):
ring the off duty dog and sayare you available to come back
to work?
And because we're working onannualized hours, we can adapt
and adopt what hours we need andtake the hours off later on in
the week if we need to.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
But it's actually working quite well at the moment
.
Oh, nice, okay, good, fantastic, it's been absolutely
fascinating talking to you.
To be honest with you, dave,I've learned a massive amount
today.
Let's quickly move on to.
I understand you got thequeen's medal.
Just tell us a little bit aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, it was quite a shock actually, it was quite a
surprise in a nice way.
So I think it's 2018.
I sat at my computer at homeand I I opened my emails and I'd
got an email of a letter fromthe home office basically saying
that they'd been pleased to putyour name forward to the queen
to receive the award, and Ihonestly thought it was a joke.
I honestly thought it wassomebody at work yeah so I
(32:41):
basically went to see the chieffire officer.
I thought if I can trustanybody, I can trust him.
So I actually went to see thechief fire officer and said look
, boss, I'm not being funny, Ineed to know whether you think
this is real or not.
And he said yes, it is real,we've put you forward for it
fantastic, and that wasabsolutely brilliant, probably
the pinnacle of your career, tobe honest.
Because when you look in thefire service and you look at who
(33:02):
gets awarded the queen's spicesmedal or king's spices medal,
as is now, it's nearly alwayschief officers.
It's like people that have had along, distinguished career.
Occasionally you'll see a watchmanager or a crew manager in
there.
So for me, just a nice thing todo was really nice and topped
off a nice career.
It made you feel very valuedand it was a good chance for the
family, because obviously wetook the family down to the
(33:23):
palace to get the award andeverything, because it's the
effort you put in is alwaysreflected in them.
They have to pull up with beingleft with the shopping at
tesco's and we're going out fora meal no, we're not, we're
going to a job, sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
So well, yeah, exactly exactly yesterday I've
been at plenty of barbecues andthings like that and you get a
phone call and sorry, I've gotto go I'm going, guys.
Yeah, I don't know, can you findyour own way home, because I'm
taking the car, yeah it'sfantastic that you've been and,
as you say, you always get thechief constables who are become
sirs and all that sort of stuffget the thing.
So it's nice to the filingranks to get some
(33:56):
acknowledgement as well.
We're sort of running out oftime, unfortunately, dave.
I'll probably get you onanother time because it's been
fascinating for me and, I'm sure, fascinating for the listeners
as well.
But any sort of uh, top tips,any sort of gadgets that you'd
like to go I'm a bit of a gadgetman or is there anything else
you want to sort of finish offwith that we haven't kind of
discussed or any sort of messageyou want to get across,
particularly about the dogs orabout the smoke, smoke alarms or
(34:19):
anything well, I think we smokealarm to death.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Really, I think for me the issue is to the fire
investigators.
There's a lot of myths aroundthe dogs, what they can and
can't do, and the magicalcreatures and all the rest of it
, and the bottom line is we'rehere to support you, we're here
to locate something, and it'slike very often you'll get a
fire investigator say I, Ididn't call you to this job
because I could smell petrolmyself, and I've said it to him
(34:41):
time and time again.
But you don't know what you'remissing, because the dog is
going to locate the otherevidence that you think you're
smelling but you're not seeing.
If there's a petrol can in theroom, you immediately go I can
smell petrol, it must be comingout of that petrol can.
And in reality the dog will sayactually it's coming from the
petrol cat which is on the otherside of the room which is
unburned.
(35:01):
That's going to get your dnaand fingerprints.
Yeah, so that would be the toptip.
For me would be.
The one time you really do wantto dog is when you think you
can smell it, not, yeah, whenyou can't yeah, and I think the
biggest lesson for me is a jobthat I reviewed and I had a look
at.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
It came down to there was a suspect, two suspects
actually, and what the witnessessaid.
Basically, if the dog had beenutilized, that may well,
obviously it might end.
It's going to indicate on thepetrol can, but the route of
access and how that person gotin and out of that scene and
where they clothing, example,was found 50 meters up the road.
The dog could have been utilizedto actually indicate that.
(35:37):
I think my plea in relation tothe dogs is for CSIs in
particular, because I've seen ita couple of times it's just
because the dog turns up, that'snot the job done, and also
don't be afraid to expand thesearch area because the dog can
do it fantastically.
If you think this particularjob which I can't go too much
into, but this particular job ifwe had had evidence, we had
(35:58):
intelligence at the time, thatsuspects turn left outside the
house and run down the side of asort of alleyway and it had the
dog gone down there, I'm prettyconfident that they would have
indicated on certain items andbits of pieces that have been
discarded on the way type thing,and that's massive amount of
evidence, especially when youcombine it with other cctv
that's the sort of thing that wewould expect to do now.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
So, like in the old days when we first started, I
said to in the old days all wereally did was search fire
scenes.
The actual scene itself is buta little bit of an area that we
would search.
Now we'd definitely be.
If we've got an escape route,if we know what the route
somebody's taken, then we'll 100go and search it.
And the amount of times wefound containers, clothing,
gloves, anything with dna on itto actually give you a suspect
(36:41):
as well which is alwaysbrilliant exactly, I think you
guys.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
I've always had a fantastic well, I've always had
a fantastic experience with thefire service anyway, but
particularly if you've got thedog out.
The dog wants to work, you wantto work, you want to be useful.
It sounds like your dog's keenas mustard, like most of them
are, especially the cockers andspaniels, but so just utilize
them.
They're there, so don't beafraid to.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah, yeah, that would be what I would say at the
end of the day.
The worst thing in the world isto train a dog and then not use
it.
One thing you want to do is usethe dog you've trained.
So for me, politics gets in theway, costings get in the way,
but the bottom line is, if youcall the dog handler, the dog
handler will want to come to thejob.
I guarantee you that they willwant to work the dog yeah, and
don't be afraid to ask.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
I think that's the other thing.
Don't be afraid to ask and ifyou're available, you're
available and, as you say, youturn out and, like you say, you
want to hone your skills, youwant to keep your skills up
together, you want to keep thedog.
Dog wants to work, etc.
Etc.
So, all right, dave.
Well, mace, thanks ever so muchfor coming.
I really appreciate it.
I've learned, certainly aboutdogs noses.
I've learned a great deal today.
So thanks very much for coming.
I really appreciate your time.
(37:41):
And yeah, just to finish off,what's the next plan that you're
retiring in 2025?
What's the plan?
Speaker 2 (37:47):
no.
So any plans, fingers crossed,the whim of the politicians, the
money people, if you know whatI mean.
So they have to renew thefinances every year.
So as long as the finances keepgetting renewed, we'll keep
going.
Realistically, jenny's two.
She's probably got anothereight years in it.
I can't see me having anotherdog after jenny, but so she'd
certainly be the last one.
But hopefully at least anotherfive, six years of work, yeah oh
(38:08):
good, good, oh fantastic, allright, mate.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Well, thanks again for coming.
I really appreciate it and,yeah, thanks for your time, mate
no worries, I enjoyed it, thankyou all right, thanks very much
, cheers, dave.
Bye.
Hey, thank you for listening tocsi on fire.
Please don't forget to like,subscribe and suggest future
topics on our web page.
Remember factor non-verbal.
(38:33):
Take care, good hunting.
I hope to see you on the nextone.
Cheers.
Hi, welcome to CSI on Fire, the podcast that takes
you behind the scenes of thefire investigation community.
I'm your host, mike Moulden,and episode after episode, we'll
attempt to excavate the oftendifficult but always fascinating
world of the fire investigator.
Okay, so welcome to CSI on Fire, your fire investigation
(00:28):
podcast.
This is episode 25.
We've got a fantastic guest ontoday, dave Koss.
Welcome to the podcast, dave.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Good afternoon.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
How's things, how are you doing?
All right, good, yeah, yeah, I'mon a very rare day off today,
so just relaxing a bit.
Excellent.
Now you and I don't actuallyknow each other, dave, but you
sort of come through andy quinna referral from him.
You're a sort of canine handler, which is why I really wanted
you on.
You've done a bit of researcharound smoke alarms as well.
But, as I do with all of ourguests, dave, just start us off
(00:57):
how you got into the fireservice, just tell us a bit
about yourself and how you'veended up, sort of here today.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I I started out, left school, joined the army, did a
year or so in the army, thenwent into various jobs and
eventually ended up settlinginto banking and was very booked
, sat behind a desk.
I decided or my wife talked meinto applying for fire service
back in 1992.
I was very, very fortunate toactually get in first time round
.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Wow, okay, how many years have you been in that kind
of stuff?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
As I say, I joined Derbyshire Fire and Rescue
Service in 1992 and worked myway up from crew manager to
watch manager and then in 2000,I got attached to the fire
safety department or fireprotection as it is now, and
started doing lots of firesafety.
In reality, what happened was Isort of looked at my career and
thought I left banking 10 yearsago to get from behind the desk
(01:48):
and now I'm back behind the deskagain.
So it was then a case of tryingto find some way of getting
back into not into operationsI'm not transferring back out
into the operational side butactually doing something whilst
I was in the fire safetydepartment and that's where the
interest in the fireinvestigation I sort of caught
an eye.
I've been in mountain rescuefor a long time and I've been
working a mountain rescue searchdog for search rescue dog
(02:10):
association for a few years atthat point and I saw somebody
working a fire dog and thought Icould do that and it just so
happened I had a pet dog at homecalled Forge Chocolate Labrador
and a very good friend of minecalled John Ellis, who was the
police dog training sergeant forSouth Yorkshire Police, agreed
to sort of help me train it andset it up.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Brilliant.
Did that sort of get buy-in bythe service?
Then Did they sort of sponsoryou to do that, or how did that
work?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Initially.
No, initially a lot ofresistance.
I mean, I've spoken to CliveGregory, who was obviously the
first dog handler in the UK FireService for Westminster and he
was obviously the first doghandler in the UK Fire Service
for Westminster and he saidexactly the same thing Initially
, a lot of resistance.
A lot of people saw it as agimmick.
A lot of people saw it as justa dog in boots that prances
(02:56):
around and gets loads ofattention and didn't really see
the serious side of the job, ifthat's the right way of saying
it.
They didn't see the dogsactually a very good tool for
fire investigators to use.
Use and I think that's whereinitially, a lot of the friction
came in.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Sure, sure.
I mean, I've had lots of well,both on the police side, from
general purpose dogs and alsoCSI dogs, firearms, that kind of
stuff.
But tell us about thecapabilities of the dog then,
dave.
What can it do?
What can't it do?
Why do we use it at fire scenes?
What's the lowdown with that?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
so the first thing to say is the dog's not going to
solve all your problems.
I think it's getting better now, but there was this sort of
mythical thing that a dog'sgoing to turn up for a fire
investigation and solve theinvestigation without anybody
else doing anything.
And in reality all the dog isis just another tool.
So, as you say, to fireinvestigators, as you reach in
your toolbox for a trowel,reaching your toolbox for a dog,
it's just another method to useto try and locate accelerants
(03:49):
the dog itself is trained tofind.
We like to call them ignitableliquids, not accelerants,
because obviously the term has alegal meaning, whereas we call
them ignitable liquids.
But the dog's basically trainedto find any liquid that is
capable of being set fire to bya naked flame.
The dog should be able to findit.
So petrol, diesel, white spiritfainting as turd, cigarette
(04:10):
lighter fluid, barbecue lighterfluid, ethanol, methanol,
methylated spirits, anythinglike that.
But the main thing for the dogis the dog is going to find it
in its trace format.
So if you imagine walking pastMorrison's petrol station, the
dog isn't suddenly going to turnleft and walk into the station.
It's going to ignore thatbecause it's not looking for a
big scent picture, it's lookingfor a really, really, really
(04:33):
tiny one, and the sort of tracewe're looking at is, if you can
imagine, when you've filled upwith petrol and you've got
petrol on your hands and you'vewiped it on your shirt and
you've then put your shirt inthe wash basket.
You've then washed your shirtand you've wiped it on your
shirt and you've then put yourshirt in the wash basket.
You've then washed your shirtand you've then hung it back up
in the wardrobe.
That's the point the dog'sgoing to step in and find the
trace on the shirt right,fantastic.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
and you kind of said there, I mean, there's all about
the context, isn't it?
You're quite right to say aboutignitable liquids in the sense
of accelerants, because thething that I've learned I've
done a couple reviews and I'vesaid this in a previous podcast,
but the CSIs and the FIs atthat particular job, they've
kind of used the dog as evidencerather than intelligence.
Like you said, it's a tool andit's a fantastic tool and it
(05:14):
gives you an area to search, butthat's not the whole picture,
is it?
You've got to still carry onand do the full works.
If that makes sense, would youagree with that?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, I think, where things have advanced over the
years.
I mean it's what 20, 25 plusyears now since I first started
with a dog.
In the very, very early stagesall we did was search fire
scenes and if we had anindication at a scene then they
would take that away for testing.
Now the dogs have evolved intosuch a tool that if we get an
indication at a scene the CSIswill obviously step in and
(05:47):
recover that sample.
But then, if we then get asuspect, we will search
suspect's clothing, suspect'saddress, suspect's vehicle, the
route the suspect took home, allhopefully in finding other bits
of evidence that police canthen use to start and link the
case together.
For us, if that makes sense, soit's.
It's not just about in themodern investigation now.
It's not just about in themodern investigation now.
It's not just about findinginartable liquid out of the fire
(06:09):
scene.
The fire investigator's stillgot to do his job at the scene
and say, yes, we found petrolwhere we shouldn't find it.
And it's down to theinvestigators to say, yes, I
think this has been anaccelerated fire, I think this
has been used to start fire.
But then obviously the dogwalks the gray area between the
police and the fire basically,and we'll go to the fire scene
(06:30):
initially, but then we'll go toa suspect's address, just like a
drugs dog or a firearms dogwould that you've probably come
across in the csi world.
And if we get an indication,say in the washing basket or on
the shoes by the front door orsomething like that, then we can
assist with the building of thebigger picture yeah, sure, and
I think the other advantage I'veseen with ignitable liquids
(06:53):
dogs is the area you canobviously just take us about.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
If you've got, say you're looking for some
ignitable liquid, it's anoutdoor scene, for example.
You've got reports, you've gotwitness statements saying an
offender's been seen runningaway and maybe discarded
something, what can the dog dofor the fire investigator, the
csi, in that kind of instance?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
so one of the things one of the examples we use when
we're training or teaching.
A friend of mine's put apresentation together and he
basically worked out that you'relooking for one grain of salt
in 20 olympic size swimmingpools.
That's the sort of volume, ifyou like.
When it comes to open areas,that's when the dog comes into
its own, because the dog isworking, the wind's, not the
(07:31):
area.
So it doesn't matter what theenvironment is, it only matters
what the wind is doing in thatenvironment.
There are man-made devices.
There are an item called a pid,which is a detector.
It's basically like a metaldetector and it can sniff
accelerants.
The problem with that is you'vegot to be right over the top of
the accelerator to find it.
So if a dog stood at one sideof a football pitch and it's at
(07:51):
the other side of the footballpitch, if the, as long as he's
downwind of the scent, as longas he's downwind of the vapor,
the dog's going to pick it upand find it and follow it back
to its source.
For the machine to do that youwould have to physically sweep
the entire football pitch untilyou actually passed over the top
of it.
And that's the big advantagefor the dog is that the dog can
very, very quickly narrow itdown for you.
(08:13):
Dogs are better than machines,machines are better than dogs.
They've all got their place.
But the one thing the dog cando is search a vast area, very,
very quickly.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, sure, I mean the pits, for really when the
dog is sourced it or if youhaven't got a dog available.
That's when I've used pids.
Now, if the dog's not availableyou get to an area where the
dog has already indicated.
Then the pids is kind of asecondary confirmation, I guess,
if you like.
But I've seen dogs where theykind of hone in, don't they?
And am I right in sayingthere's kind of a cup or like a
(08:41):
cone and they kind of hone downonto that scent from you can see
a dog.
And I've seen dogs where othersnot me, because I know what's
going on but others have said,oh, don't look particularly sure
, but they're going from left toright and they're looking for
depends on the wind and stuffbut they're looking for that
cone of scent.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (08:57):
yeah, so the one advantage a dog has over a human
is the way the nose isconstructed.
So in a human you have tobreathe in and out through the
same nostril, whereas the dogcan breathe in one way and blow
it out the side.
So what you end up with is thedog that can be constantly
sniffing.
So that's the first thing wow,okay, I didn't know that if you
(09:18):
look at a dog's nose, it's got alittle slit on the side of each
side of its nose where it canblow the air through it.
But the other big key thing isthat dogs' nostrils are
independent of each other.
So you're right in what you'resaying.
If the scent is spreading awayin like a cone shape away from
the source, what the dog will dois it will run to the left-hand
side of the source, get to theedge of it, and then it will run
(09:39):
to the right-hand side and getto the edge of it and then it'll
just keep narrowing down like azigzag and the zigzag just gets
tighter and tighter and tighterand tighter.
But that's because the dog'sgot the ability to direct where
the smell's coming from, whichwe haven't.
So we can walk into a room.
We can say I can smell petrol.
The dog can walk into rooms asI can smell it, but I can tell
it's coming from that cornerbecause they've got that ability
(10:01):
to narrow down the scentfantastic and well, that's news
to me, but that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
What about training for the dogs?
How long does it take to train?
Is there any national standards?
I'm kind of asking youquestions, already know, but for
the audience and stuff, justtake us through the training of
the type of dog that you needand any kind of qualifications
of the dog and you as a handlerneed to sort of come up to.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
So first thing really the national standard wise.
There aren't any nationalstandards at the moment.
The problem we've got is thatevery police force in the
country has a dog section andthey're all signed up to the
national police chiefs councilworking group and they get
directed how they will train,how they will use the dogs and
the rest of it within the fireservice.
There's no national frameworkfor fire dogs, there's no
(10:44):
required, which is a little bitdifficult.
But what we've done is we'vegone down the route of the
police.
So we're actually trained andlicensed by South Yorkshire
Police Dog Section and basicallythey license us to a standard
which has been put out by theNational Association of Fire
Dogs and every 12 months werelicense to that standard.
(11:06):
So it gives us some credibility.
They give us a licensebasically that says if we ever
get called to give evidence incourt we can say my dog has been
trained to this standard andhas passed that standard.
But in the UK and heaven forbidit ever change but in the UK the
dog's indication alone isinsufficient, evidentially, to
(11:28):
be used purely on its own.
So in America dog indicates inthe scene that sufficient
evidence to say an accelerantwas used and we found it In this
country.
The way it works is that thedog will indicate it.
We will hopefully the CSIrecover that sample into a nylon
bag and then that will get sentfor testing and only when
(11:50):
that's proved positive andidentified as, say, petrol or
diesel or whatever, can it beused as evidence in court.
We're in a good place in someways, because it means whatever
the doctor does or says is notrelied on in its own right.
It still has to be backed up bya scientific test yeah, sure.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
So it's basically as we've said already, it's kind of
it's an intelligence as a toolto help you, guide you to the
area of interest possibleignitable liquids.
Then you need to look at,obviously, the context in which
that liquid is and why thatliquid may or may not or should
not be there.
But yeah, and then obviouslycsis would gather it, take it
off, goes for gcms and you get aconfirmation back one way or
(12:29):
the other.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah, I mean, if I give you a prime example, we had
a triple murder a few years agoin Derbyshire where the dog
indicated in the scene and thatscene was tested and it was
confirmed as petrol.
The getaway vehicle which wasused in the job was recovered.
The dog searched the boot ofthe getaway vehicle and an
indication was given in.
The job was recovered.
The dog searched the boot ofthe getaway vehicle and an
indication was given in the bootwhen that sample was tested.
(12:51):
That sample came back as diesel.
So the dog's not wrong becauseit's one of its target
substances.
But clearly that's not a linkto the job and that's why it's
really, really important that wetest the samples and that we
don't just rely on the dogtelling us there's something
there.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Yeah, sure, I've reviewed a couple of and I was
involved with a murder inglasgow and what I saw on that
job was that the dog was usedbut then the area that the dog
had indicated in two places.
They excavated those areas butdidn't really excavate anywhere
else because of the state.
And there's good reason forthat, I suppose, in the sense of
structurally wise, the buildingwas questionable and so they
(13:26):
only excavated in those areas.
But then when I went and Ilooked at the flat downstairs,
there was obviously ignitableliquids there which were in
context.
There was some white spirit,which is what was found in the
flat above.
It's not just about findingignitable liquid, as you quite
rightly said, it's about thecontext and also double checking
that that comes back as an itemwhich should or should not be
(13:47):
there.
And in fact it's an ignitableliquid.
But OK, so for how long does ittake to train?
I mean, you've got an ignitableliquids dog now.
So I'm on my fourth dog now.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
OK, my first dog was a chocolate Labrador called
Fudge in 2001 when we firststarted.
Then we had a Springer calledFreckle, and then we had a very
large working cocker calledDexter, who I've still got he's
now retired, but he's with meand then we've just gone on to
the latest one, which is alittle, very small working
cocker called Ginny, who is abit like a pocket rocket.
(14:17):
She's only two, but she's fullof beans and bouncing around
like a youngster, which is goodfor me because I'm the other end
of my scale now.
So I like actually just standin the middle of the room and
watch the dog jump about allover the place, which is quite
good.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, and I mean that's a trait.
Some dogs aren't cut out for it.
It's the same in the police andstuff.
If you get a general purposedog that's not particularly
aggressive, it's not going to bevery good.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
So you look for those sort of traits, don't you we?
So it will be assessed on dayone and then it'll be the
decision will be made whether wethink we can train it or not.
As far as training goes,there's two real methods.
The first one is a dedicatedcourse, which you need, a six
week dedicated course alongsidea sister called Giddy who's gone
to West Midds Fire and Rescueis there or Dexter was done what
(15:05):
we call trickle train.
So because I had Freckle on therun run, I just sort of brought
dexter along in the backgrounduntil the point where he was
ready to license and then wejust retired freckle and ran
with dexter gotcha.
There's two sort of main waysof doing it so the dedicated
course?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
are you absent for six weeks while you train the
dog, or somebody else train thedog and then you get it back as
a handler?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
it's a team effort, so it's handler and a dog are a
team.
The course that ginny did, weactually ran within knots fire
and rescue so we ran the course,for initially it was going to
be for west mids's dog, but wemanaged to get ginny on the same
course as well, which justmeant we ran two dogs on a
course rather than one, which isa lot easier to do because
you've got to give the dogs resttime in between training.
(15:45):
But in those six weeks you'regoing to train the dog and the
handler together to worktogether as a team, and it
usually takes about the firsttwo or three weeks to train the
dog and then the last threeweeks is train the handler how
to use the dog.
It's a little bit like a dronepilot.
It's all right being able toput the drone in the air, but
you've got to learn how to useit for the task that you want it
to use it for at the end ofthat course do you kind of pass
(16:08):
or fail as a unit.
That's what I say.
You're licensed as a team, sothe dog and the handler are a
team.
So now that I've gone so Iretired from Derbyshire in 2022,
joined Nottinghamshire FireServices part-time doing the
same job.
So we've now trained a seconddog handler and dog in
Nottinghamshire to work theother half of my job.
So I trained the second doghandler and dog in
(16:28):
Nottinghamshire to work theother half of my job.
So it's like a job share.
So Tim and Barney are the othertwo of my role.
I can't work Tim's dog and Timcan't work my dog.
Our license is me and my dog asa team, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Sure, you live with the dogs.
Are they stay-at-home dogs withyou?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
24-7,.
Yeah, I know you can't seebecause it's a podcast, but
Jim's actually laid out on thefloor inside of me Just killed a
few feet at the moment.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yeah, we've had a few technical bits today so
normally I'd be able to see.
But OK, fantastic.
And is ISO going to play anyrole with the dog handling side?
I know it's looming over us onthe FI kind of investigation
side.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
So way back in 2015, I think it was when julian tully
was the forensic regulator Iwent to one of the afi
conferences where she wasspeaking and I actually spoke to
her at length there and shesaid to me at the time the dogs
wouldn't be part of the isoconsideration and the sort of
thinking is that whoever is soif it's the CSI or the fire
investigator that is theaccredited person or for the ISO
(17:32):
purposes, they have to beconfident that the dog and
handler team are competent to dothe role that they are asking
them to do.
Although we're not required to astandard within the ISO, we
have to produce evidence, ifrequested, that we are capable
of doing what they're asking usto do, which is why we've sort
of gone down there the policelicensing route, because we can
(17:54):
produce a police license and saywe have been trained and
licensed to this standard.
And then other things such ascross-contamination measures and
the anti-contamination, whichis the big issue, to the dog and
handler team.
We have to put traceability andaccountability for all our kits
, so the boots that the dogwears when they go into scenes.
Within our unit, every set ofboots is numbered, every set of
(18:18):
boots is sealed in evidence bagsbroken open at the scene, so I
can trace every boot and everyjob that boot's been to since
it's been in service.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Fantastic.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
So you've got that continuity there yeah, basically
that's what we're looking at.
We've got the continuity ofdecontamination if we need it
and how does it work?
Speaker 1 (18:35):
is it the same as your fire kit, or is it tested
afterwards?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
well, this is where it's going to sound really
bizarre, but stick with me.
So we know and one of the casesthat andy quine talked the job
in Leicester where Andy did hisresearch, where we tested petrol
on clothing post-wash.
So we know that washing itemswon't necessarily get rid of any
petrol that is on the items.
(18:58):
We know that when we wash thedog boots which is what we do we
put them in the washing machineand wash them with normal
conditions.
We know that there's a chancethat if there is petrol on the
boot then that's not going toget rid of the petrol off the
boot.
But we also know that the dogis capable of finding it on the
boot if it's there after wash.
So what we do is we would washthem through the washing machine
(19:21):
, we'd lay them all out on thefloor and then we'd get the dog
to check them all before wereseal them and re-bag them.
We know it's potentially goingto be there, but we also know if
it is there, the dog's going tofind it.
So it's the best screeningmethod we can think of.
Sure, to send in the actualboots away in the nylon bag and
getting them gcms tested everytime.
Yeah, sure, which you'relooking three, four hundred quid
(19:41):
a test yeah, yeah, which wouldbe obviously cost prohibited.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
I think there's got to come a point where you've got
to be satisfied, isn't there?
And it sounds like you're doingexactly the right thing?
Okay, fantastic.
I mean, let's talk about.
I know you did some researchand one of your areas I read up
about was sort of smoke alarmsand their effects on waking
children and bits and pieces.
So if you wouldn't mind, dave,just take us through some of
that research and some of theoutcomes and what you found out.
(20:04):
So the background to it.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
In 2012, we had derbyshire probably one of the
biggest cases it's ever going tohave where, unfortunately, we
lost six children in a housefire.
It turned out to be that thedads basically had set the fire.
So one of the issues thatreally, really bugged and a lot
of frs will probably tell youthis is that they'll go to a job
and there'll just be somethingthat's not right.
(20:28):
The case will be the case, butthere's always something that
just doesn't fit within that andit bugs you that you can't work
it out.
And, in this particularinstance, the thing that did us
the first phone call to thepolice, once the fire had been
started, from the mother statedall six children were in the
same bedroom and they weretrapped in the bedroom and
(20:48):
subsequent interviews and policeinvestigations.
Everything else was the parentswere under the assumption that
the children would haveresponded to the smoke alarms
and got into this single bedroomwhere they would be rescued
from, and every single child wasrescued from their own beds.
They hadn't moved, hadn'tstirred at all.
It was one of those littleniggles that just bugged away at
you and bugged away at you andbugged away at you, and I can
(21:09):
remember walking into the officeand a colleague of mine, a
really old school colleague, andI said he asked me what was
wrong and I said this is drivingme nuts.
I can't understand why theydidn't respond.
And he basically said he wasn'tsurprised and had I seen this
video from america?
And he showed me a video fromamerica where kids didn't
respond to a smoke alarm and Ijust thought how come?
(21:30):
I don't know about that ifwe've known about it before?
why do we not know about it now?
I set off on a bit of a missionat that point.
The police did all thetoxicology on the children to
make sure that they weren'tdrugged and there was nothing in
their system that would preventthem from responding.
We had the smoke alarmsthemselves absolutely
forensically tested to death totry and prove that they'd
operated.
And we ended up with thisbizarre situation where we said
(21:52):
we could find no evidence ofthem not working.
Oh, I had to do it.
You couldn't find no evidenceto say they didn't work, but we
can't prove they did.
Yeah, there's a bit of a limbo,but so we always had that in
the back of our mind.
But basically, basically, atthat point I was in touch with
another friend of mine calledNiamh Nick-Dade.
She was at Glasgow Universityat the time, professor Nick-Dade
(22:13):
, and she basically said whydon't you do a study into it?
We set off, basically, and dida small scale study with about
45 children, I think it was, andwe basically tested them with a
standard smoke detector thatwere fitting, the fire service
fitting, and I think it wassomething like 80 or 90 percent
of the children didn't respondat all.
(22:34):
So you'd have a smoke alarmgoing off next to their ears and
they just didn't twitch.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
OK, were they asleep.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Absolutely, yeah.
Yeah, I mean my niece, blessher.
My niece had got four boys, allunder the age of 10 at the time
, and we basically used them asguinea pigs and we tried our
best to wake them up and wecouldn't.
They just slept through everytime, boys more than girls.
Girls, once they got to about10 or 11, started to respond.
But boys absolutely nothing.
Under the age of 10, you coulddrive a steam train through the
(23:03):
bedroom and they wouldn't wakeup.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Wow okay, and did you say 45 children, the initial
study?
Speaker 2 (23:09):
was about 45 children .
Okay, that sort of scared us todeath.
And then a lot of peoplestarted saying so, what you're
going to do about it?
You've opened a can of worms,what you're going to do?
Yeah, and I sort of sat withneve and we had a bit of a
natter and it was basically weneed to do more.
So we managed to secure somefunding and we then did a
(23:29):
further test of I think it was670 children.
We did like a nationwide appealon the bbc and then we tested
all these children.
But in the interim we alsolooked at what we could do to
actually wake them up and wediscovered that a so a low freak
, so a standard smoke alarm isabout 3,000 hertz.
(23:50):
The frequency of the sound Alow frequency, so around about
500 hertz, plus adding onto thata human voice.
So when the smoke alarm sounded, we put a human voice on the
end of it as well, say wake up,the house is on fire.
So we double tested.
So all the 600 kids that wefire.
So we double tested.
So all the 600 kids that we did.
We double tested them.
(24:10):
So we asked the parents to setthe smoke alarm off on one night
and see if they responded andthen on the second night use the
test kit that we'd sent out tothem and see if they woke up.
To that and we went fromcertainly with boys under 10, we
went from sort of 85 90 percentnot waking up to the standard
alarm to only 10 not waking or20 not waking up to the new
(24:33):
alarm that we've given them.
We had an instant reversal.
So 89% of all the kids woke upto the sound.
And when you think about it,logically, because of
generations and development andeverything, people, when you're
born, you're born predisposed tohearing a human voice which is
around about 250, 300 hertz.
You're not predisposed tolistening to the smoke alarm
(24:55):
sounding.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Okay, that makes sense.
If I can explain it in a bitmore detail, it's a bit like we
call it sleeping rabbit syndrome.
So you've got rabbits sat inthe field, it's asleep, it's not
dead.
So all its senses are stillworking.
So the nose detects the smellof a fox coming into the field.
So the nose sends a signal tothe brain to say to the brain
you need to wake up, sunshine,or the fox is going to eat you.
(25:17):
So you need to wake up and runoff.
What we think's happening isyour ears are hearing the alarm.
They're sending the signal tothe brain to say that's a funny
alarm, you need to wake up.
But the brain can't comprehendthat it's danger.
So therefore it doesn't wake youup, so you carry on sleeping,
okay that's probably the bestway I can think of explaining it
yeah, no, that was bang on.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
That was fantastic.
Yeah, that makes total sense.
So was there any sort oflegislative change from come out
of that, or was there anyrecommendations in that regard?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
unfortunately, this is going to sound a bit cruel,
but it's not meant to be.
Unfortunately, in the middle ofall this, we then had the
grenfell disaster and thatbasically took over everything.
At the end of the day andrightly so, when we're talking
about mass loss of life from thecladding and all the stuff that
went with that, it sort of tookover the headlines and
everybody was more interested inthat.
(26:09):
We tried to suggest we didn'tneed a major change, we just
needed a change in how weeducated people.
When we traditionally talkedabout having a fire plan and get
out and stay out and everythingwe used to say to families have
a plan that says, when thesmoke alarms go off, you all
meet in one room or gathertogether and then you get out.
(26:29):
And all we did was change itand say to people when the smoke
alarms go off, go and fetchyour children, because they
won't have woken up, becausethere's no research anywhere in
the world that's ever said acompass mentis adult will not
respond to a smoke alarm.
Okay, so there's no reason whythe smoke alarm won't wake an
adult up.
It's that it won't wake thechildren up.
If the adults wake up, theyjust need to go and fetch the
(26:51):
children okay.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
So there's obviously some sort of maybe some
neurological kind of developmentthing as well that once you get
to puberty or adulthood thatwill register.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
I guess we did see that.
So we split the test subjectsinto naught to 10 and 10 to 16,
obviously boy and girl, and theworst one for not waking up was
boys.
Naught to 10 exactly the bestones for waking up were girls 10
to 16.
Okay, so there is something todo with development and there
was a tentative link to youngmale drivers in the sense that
(27:25):
because it was to do with thefrontal lobe, front part of your
brain development, you've got a17-year-old lad that's just
passed his test and he'shurtling towards a corner, his
eyes, and he's telling him heain't going to make it, he ain't
going to get around that bend,but his brain is ignoring it.
His brain is saying don't worryabout it, you'll get around
there, and it's a similar sortof thing.
So there's tentative bits beendone in areas like that, but
(27:49):
it's one of those things where,for me, I'm not overly worried
if I can't wake the kids up.
The issue is educating peopleto know that they won't wake up
and that you need to fetch themyeah sure yeah, I mean
tragically.
I had a job where three-storytownhouse and the mother was on
the top floor with the childrenin the very top floor and there
(28:09):
was a fire downstairs.
She'd come down the stairs toinvestigate the fire because
obviously she'd been woken by asmoke alarm.
She didn't wake the children up, she expected them to get up
with the alarms going off andthen, when the staircase became
untenable, she couldn't get backup the staircase and,
tragically, the children died.
That's a prime example of ifshe'd have waited two seconds
(28:29):
and just made sure they were upbefore she left, they'd have
followed her downstairs.
For me, it's more abouteducation than legislation, if
that makes sense yeah and more.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Have that plan where you gather the kids first.
Is that basically the overallmessage really?
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yeah, well, it's the education, it's knowing that if
the smoke alarm goes off, youneed to go and fetch them.
That's the bottom line At theend of the day.
They're not going to respond,or there's a high likelihood
they're not going to respond.
And just that split second justto say I need to fetch them to
make sure I've physically gotthem with me up and away when we
leave.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
it's just an education thing for me yeah, are
you still involved with anykind of research or anything
like that?
What's your week look like?
How many jobs are you gettingout to and to get called to?
All tier twos or justfatalities, or how does that
work?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
we don't self-deploy.
So the system we've got I meanthe problem you've got is
different dog handlers areworking different systems across
the country you've only gotabout 15 plus dogs in the teams
in the country and our team inthe east midlands we're the only
one still that is a, aconsortium, so nottinghamshire,
lincolnshire, leicestershire andderbyshire all pay into a
central part, so a quarter ofthe funds is paid for by each of
(29:37):
the brigades.
What that means?
The likes of lincolnshire thatcouldn't afford a standalone dog
team because you're talkingabout 60, 70 grand they're
getting it for 15 grand a yearand they're getting it whenever
they need it.
So because of that and the factthat we're pretty much central
in the country so if you look ata spider web, a lot of the
other teams are out on the limbsof the web, so when they fall
(29:59):
or when they're not availablewe're probably the next nearest
we get asked to go and cover forthem.
We're doing currently about 200jobs a year.
Okay, which equates to aboutthree or four a week.
But it's a little bit likebeing a retained firefighter you
don't know what you're going todo until the bell till the page
goes off and says job.
I mean the job that andy wastalking about, the hinkler road
(30:19):
job, the big explosion.
Me and dexter were on scene for14 days without a break, solid
straight through.
Okay, every day for 14 days.
That's not every job.
You might get a job where, um?
So yesterday I went yesterdayto a job.
It only took three hours.
I was back home within threehours.
So it purely depends on the jobyou can have.
One job takes two days or onejob takes seven days.
(30:42):
We tend to go to most of thebigger jobs because obviously
there's more of a wanting tofind a cause or to check it.
So certainly fatalities wewould nearly always go to a
fatality within our region justto be able to either confirm or
it's just as useful to the CSIsto rule it out as it is to say
there's something there, becausethe coroner is certainly going
to ask did you look for anything?
Speaker 1 (31:04):
sure you said you deployed from home.
So do you work?
Was it seven day on call period, or how's it work like that?
Speaker 2 (31:11):
so what we've got now .
So I'm on a job share.
When I worked for Derbyshireand we covered the region from
Derbyshire, we basically were 247 on call unless I decided to
have a break.
Obviously that's notsustainable long term.
So what we've done now is we'vesplit it between the two of us
so we do seven days on call,seven days off call on your
seven days on call.
(31:31):
If control get a request forthe dog, then they're going to
give it to you first.
We have got a situation whereif they, as happened yesterday
so we're getting two or threerequests at the same time,
because we're covering quite abig region the primary dog
handler is going to get thefirst call and sent to the first
job.
If a second job then comes in,what control will do is they'll
(31:51):
ring the off duty dog and sayare you available to come back
to work?
And because we're working onannualized hours, we can adapt
and adopt what hours we need andtake the hours off later on in
the week if we need to.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
But it's actually working quite well at the moment
.
Oh, nice, okay, good, fantastic, it's been absolutely
fascinating talking to you.
To be honest with you, dave,I've learned a massive amount
today.
Let's quickly move on to.
I understand you got thequeen's medal.
Just tell us a little bit aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, it was quite a shock actually, it was quite a
surprise in a nice way.
So I think it's 2018.
I sat at my computer at homeand I I opened my emails and I'd
got an email of a letter fromthe home office basically saying
that they'd been pleased to putyour name forward to the queen
to receive the award, and Ihonestly thought it was a joke.
I honestly thought it wassomebody at work yeah so I
(32:41):
basically went to see the chieffire officer.
I thought if I can trustanybody, I can trust him.
So I actually went to see thechief fire officer and said look
, boss, I'm not being funny, Ineed to know whether you think
this is real or not.
And he said yes, it is real,we've put you forward for it
fantastic, and that wasabsolutely brilliant, probably
the pinnacle of your career, tobe honest.
Because when you look in thefire service and you look at who
(33:02):
gets awarded the queen's spicesmedal or king's spices medal,
as is now, it's nearly alwayschief officers.
It's like people that have had along, distinguished career.
Occasionally you'll see a watchmanager or a crew manager in
there.
So for me, just a nice thing todo was really nice and topped
off a nice career.
It made you feel very valuedand it was a good chance for the
family, because obviously wetook the family down to the
(33:23):
palace to get the award andeverything, because it's the
effort you put in is alwaysreflected in them.
They have to pull up with beingleft with the shopping at
tesco's and we're going out fora meal no, we're not, we're
going to a job, sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
So well, yeah, exactly exactly yesterday I've
been at plenty of barbecues andthings like that and you get a
phone call and sorry, I've gotto go I'm going, guys.
Yeah, I don't know, can you findyour own way home, because I'm
taking the car, yeah it'sfantastic that you've been and,
as you say, you always get thechief constables who are become
sirs and all that sort of stuffget the thing.
So it's nice to the filingranks to get some
(33:56):
acknowledgement as well.
We're sort of running out oftime, unfortunately, dave.
I'll probably get you onanother time because it's been
fascinating for me and, I'm sure, fascinating for the listeners
as well.
But any sort of uh, top tips,any sort of gadgets that you'd
like to go I'm a bit of a gadgetman or is there anything else
you want to sort of finish offwith that we haven't kind of
discussed or any sort of messageyou want to get across,
particularly about the dogs orabout the smoke, smoke alarms or
(34:19):
anything well, I think we smokealarm to death.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Really, I think for me the issue is to the fire
investigators.
There's a lot of myths aroundthe dogs, what they can and
can't do, and the magicalcreatures and all the rest of it
, and the bottom line is we'rehere to support you, we're here
to locate something, and it'slike very often you'll get a
fire investigator say I, Ididn't call you to this job
because I could smell petrolmyself, and I've said it to him
(34:41):
time and time again.
But you don't know what you'remissing, because the dog is
going to locate the otherevidence that you think you're
smelling but you're not seeing.
If there's a petrol can in theroom, you immediately go I can
smell petrol, it must be comingout of that petrol can.
And in reality the dog will sayactually it's coming from the
petrol cat which is on the otherside of the room which is
unburned.
(35:01):
That's going to get your dnaand fingerprints.
Yeah, so that would be the toptip.
For me would be.
The one time you really do wantto dog is when you think you
can smell it, not, yeah, whenyou can't yeah, and I think the
biggest lesson for me is a jobthat I reviewed and I had a look
at.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
It came down to there was a suspect, two suspects
actually, and what the witnessessaid.
Basically, if the dog had beenutilized, that may well,
obviously it might end.
It's going to indicate on thepetrol can, but the route of
access and how that person gotin and out of that scene and
where they clothing, example,was found 50 meters up the road.
The dog could have been utilizedto actually indicate that.
(35:37):
I think my plea in relation tothe dogs is for CSIs in
particular, because I've seen ita couple of times it's just
because the dog turns up, that'snot the job done, and also
don't be afraid to expand thesearch area because the dog can
do it fantastically.
If you think this particularjob which I can't go too much
into, but this particular job ifwe had had evidence, we had
(35:58):
intelligence at the time, thatsuspects turn left outside the
house and run down the side of asort of alleyway and it had the
dog gone down there, I'm prettyconfident that they would have
indicated on certain items andbits of pieces that have been
discarded on the way type thing,and that's massive amount of
evidence, especially when youcombine it with other cctv
that's the sort of thing that wewould expect to do now.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
So, like in the old days when we first started, I
said to in the old days all wereally did was search fire
scenes.
The actual scene itself is buta little bit of an area that we
would search.
Now we'd definitely be.
If we've got an escape route,if we know what the route
somebody's taken, then we'll 100go and search it.
And the amount of times wefound containers, clothing,
gloves, anything with dna on itto actually give you a suspect
(36:41):
as well which is alwaysbrilliant exactly, I think you
guys.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
I've always had a fantastic well, I've always had
a fantastic experience with thefire service anyway, but
particularly if you've got thedog out.
The dog wants to work, you wantto work, you want to be useful.
It sounds like your dog's keenas mustard, like most of them
are, especially the cockers andspaniels, but so just utilize
them.
They're there, so don't beafraid to.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah, yeah, that would be what I would say at the
end of the day.
The worst thing in the world isto train a dog and then not use
it.
One thing you want to do is usethe dog you've trained.
So for me, politics gets in theway, costings get in the way,
but the bottom line is, if youcall the dog handler, the dog
handler will want to come to thejob.
I guarantee you that they willwant to work the dog yeah, and
don't be afraid to ask.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
I think that's the other thing.
Don't be afraid to ask and ifyou're available, you're
available and, as you say, youturn out and, like you say, you
want to hone your skills, youwant to keep your skills up
together, you want to keep thedog.
Dog wants to work, etc.
Etc.
So, all right, dave.
Well, mace, thanks ever so muchfor coming.
I really appreciate it.
I've learned, certainly aboutdogs noses.
I've learned a great deal today.
So thanks very much for coming.
I really appreciate your time.
(37:41):
And yeah, just to finish off,what's the next plan that you're
retiring in 2025?
What's the plan?
Speaker 2 (37:47):
no.
So any plans, fingers crossed,the whim of the politicians, the
money people, if you know whatI mean.
So they have to renew thefinances every year.
So as long as the finances keepgetting renewed, we'll keep
going.
Realistically, jenny's two.
She's probably got anothereight years in it.
I can't see me having anotherdog after jenny, but so she'd
certainly be the last one.
But hopefully at least anotherfive, six years of work, yeah oh
(38:08):
good, good, oh fantastic, allright, mate.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Well, thanks again for coming.
I really appreciate it and,yeah, thanks for your time, mate
no worries, I enjoyed it, thankyou all right, thanks very much
, cheers, dave.
Bye.
Hey, thank you for listening tocsi on fire.
Please don't forget to like,subscribe and suggest future
topics on our web page.
Remember factor non-verbal.
(38:33):
Take care, good hunting.
I hope to see you on the nextone.
Cheers.
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