January 31, 2024 • 37 mins
Have you ever stood on the ashes of a scene, the air tinged with the scent of smoke, and wondered about the story the char can tell you ? That curiosity is at the heart of our latest guest, Lucy Pinkard , whose own tale winds through forensic science classrooms, the gritty reality of crime scene investigation, and into the world of the private sector fire investigator. She's here to fan the flames of intrigue and share how her career has evolved from public to private sector FI.
Lucy lights up our conversation with her experiences transitioning from public service to the private sector.
As she pulls back the curtain, we uncover the necessity of honest, ethical practice and the critical hands-on scenarios that shape the craft of an expert witness, from the ashes of fire scenes to the hallowed halls of courtrooms.
Our journey through the smoke doesn't stop there; we delve into the technological advances and challenges that keep fire investigators on their toes, from lithium-ion battery risks to the potential of detection canines. The fusion of Lucy’s ' practical skills and formal education showcases the importance of adaptability and lifelong learning in solving the mysteries of fire. She paints a world where each clue is a chapter in a larger narrative.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, welcome to CSI on Fire, the podcast that takes
you behind the scenes of thefire investigation community.
I'm your host, mike Molden.
An episode after episode willattempt to excavate the often
difficult but always fascinatingworld of the fire investigator.
Thanks very much, lees, forcoming on.
(00:26):
You are a pioneer.
I don't know if you'll end upregretting this or we'll see
this, as you are the first everinterviewee on CSI on Fire.
So thanks very much.
I really appreciate your time.
I know you're very busy, thankyou, we'll come into that a
little bit later, but I justreally wanted to start off with
well, I always want to have alittle kind of full disclosure
(00:46):
bit in the sense of you and Iknow each other.
We've known each other forprobably about four or five
years now, I think.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Maybe Something like that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yeah, so it's really just to say that we know each
other, we've kind of workedtogether and, yeah, just take us
through who you are really,lees, and your background in
fire investigation.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
No worries, thanks for inviting me, mike.
Very kind of you.
So I've been working inforensics for about the last 15
years now.
I first started off with aBachelor of Science in Forensic
Science from GlomorganUniversity.
So I always knew that I wantedto work within sort of
scientific field, but I alsoreally like people.
I found it.
I thought what can I do?
I still want to go and work ina lab the rest of my life.
(01:21):
For me, working in forensicswas like that perfect
combination of being a forensicscientist but also going to deal
with lots of people frontline.
Really.
I left university and I knew Iwanted to get into CSI.
Really my sister was a policeofficer, dog handler and
firearms officer, had quite afew members of my family in the
police.
I knew CSI was where I wantedto go, but I knew it was going
(01:43):
to be really, really difficultto get a job.
Kind of thought to myself well,what skills do I need to join
the police really to be a CSI?
So I started creating thatlittle toolkit and really
thinking about getting all theskills I can get outside of
public sector to give me theskills to get in.
So I started working for apharmaceutical company
specialising in spectroscopictechniques, things like HPLC and
(02:04):
things like that.
So I was working in qualitycontrol of drugs.
Really that gave me lots ofskills so that I could put in my
application to the police andhopefully get a job.
So having done that, I appliedfor the police.
I got very lucky, went throughmy interviews and things and I
got offered a job as anassistant CSI and I did that for
a couple of years.
So that was working at sort oflower level crime without an
(02:24):
aggravating factor, things likeburglaries, things like that.
But I always knew I loved fireseven at that point because I'd
done quite a lot of fireinvestigation in my foundation
degree and I knew that fire waswhere I wanted to go.
So I got really friendly with achap in my office actually who
was an extremely experienced CSIand fire investigator and he
started taking me out to jobstraight away with fires.
(02:46):
So that could have been thingslike fatal fires or hate crimes,
mental health, that kind ofthing.
So I was exposed to fires sortof really early on in my career,
which I was very lucky with.
Anyway, in the police Iprogressed up through the ranks,
then became a crime sceneinvestigator after a couple of
years as a fully fledged one sothat I could deal with anything
sort of any level.
So from your car being brokeninto all the way up to sort of a
(03:08):
category one murder Developedmy skills in fire investigation
through that.
I also worked as a DNA analystin a ISO accredited laboratory,
which was really interesting.
I became a crime scene manageras well.
The very nice Mike Muldentrained me on my crime scene
managers course and that's kindof where we initially met.
Anyway, in 2019 I attended alevel five course at the fire
(03:29):
service college where I becamesort of qualified fire
investigator for the police then, and with that has come lots of
opportunities.
So I also lecture at Cranfieldforensic institute there in
things like fire investigation,just setting up course now for
fire engineering as well, andI'm doing a masters there in
explosions and explosives.
That's kind of my passion aswell.
I'm really into explosions.
(03:50):
About six or seven months ago Ijust handed in my notice
actually in the police afterworking there for nearly 15
years, and I've decided to moveover into the private sector.
So, yeah, I've just started ajob with a company called EFI
Global, so I'm going to becarrying out fire and explosion
investigations.
For them.
They're an insurance company,so looking at getting more into
the kind of that being my corerole rather than it being sort
(04:14):
of extra to the main role that Ido really, yeah, sure, I
mentioned in the sort of teaserepisode of CSI on fire is that
CSIs don't necessarily we're notalways at fire scenes.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
you know you're lucky if you get to, maybe two a
month depends on the force.
So yeah, it's reallyinteresting.
I think we actually first meton the fire investigation
because I came and gave alecture and you answered all the
questions correctly so you werethe only interactive one, I
think, to be honest with you,but that must have been 2018,
2019, I think.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Oh, wow, okay, so quite a while ago then, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, and obviously we then did the crime scene
managers course.
We worked on that together.
I think it's really interestingfor those potential listeners
who are interested in maybegoing from the public sector to
the private sector.
Certainly, I mean, if you thinkabout some of the people that
we both know at EFI John Lloyd,for example, neil, they've all
come over from the public sectoras FIs and then into the
(05:09):
private sector and I think youknow that's a route for I mean,
you're nowhere near a time andloose, you know, but it's a
route for public sectors whenthey come to the end of their
career.
But yeah, I actually never knew.
I never realized your sisterwas in the job as well.
So that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yes, she was, she's not anymore.
Yeah, so I've got quite a lotof my family in the police as
well, really.
But I would definitely say ifyou're thinking about going from
public to private, that you doneed to think about.
If you're going to be workingat that higher level, sort of
more specialized, you think youneed to start thinking about how
you can get your CV up to date.
So thinking about your academiaand that kind of thing really,
and, I have to say, doing themasters.
(05:46):
I did that part time with myjob, which is quite demanding.
It's a lot going on.
I've got a family and thingslike that.
But Definitely, if you'rethinking about moving from
public to private and you'relooking at working at sort of a
more technical level, thinkabout Up in your CV a bit maybe,
where you can get some moreeducation and qualifications
there as well to support that.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I think in the world of both CSI and if I, without
the call of cake, I mean someguys of you, excellent and fire
again, even if you think about,I don't know, the P Mansi is the
world doctor, peter Mansi, asis now, and, as I mentioned,
john Lloyd, etc.
They've all got some kind ofqualifications.
I think If you want to look forthe private sector, people like
Hawkins, like Burgoy and likethe fire somebody, other firms
(06:26):
are out there.
They will look for aqualification, money, they will
look for some sort of specialistreally.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yeah, if you're gonna be given evidence in court or
writing reports, working at thatsort of more expert witness
level rather than sort ofwitness of fact, you need to
probably have a few morequalifications.
And you about taking you I meansome of these people they've
got 20 or 30 years experience.
You just can't argue with that.
It's astounding if you have gotsome more qualifications and
things get you to get uptogether and you'll be much more
(06:55):
employable in the privatesector.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Yeah, I think that's maybe where the cramfield
courses, because obviously I hadsome involvement in that and I
think you can even do shortcourses that.
Can't you just tell us a bitmore about that loose, what you
intend to do there and what'sthe school there?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, myself and Dr Mary Jane Hardin gonna be what
we have run already theintroduction to fire
investigation.
We're gonna be running the fireengineering module at the end
of January and then the fire andexplosives investigation Module
at the start of March in aspart of your masters there.
So they run lots of differenttypes of masters courses and
then you can specialize incertain things like fire
(07:29):
investigation or fireengineering.
But you can also take it as ashort course for credit
cramfield as well.
So we have had externalcandidates who have come in from
, say, large electricalmanufacturing companies or some
of the large names, thecompanies out there, and you can
get short course for credits.
So the courses are reallydesigned to be Based not just
(07:49):
around classroom learning butalso practical learning.
On every one of those threemodules we try and expose the
students and the candidates toreal life learning.
So that might be the local firefire service college.
So we took some students lasttime to capture an Isle of Wight
Fire school that absolutelyamazing facilities for learning
their great.
So students actually got tocarry out proper fire
(08:11):
investigation.
So it's all about reallycreating like that collaborative
learning really where peopleare learning from experts in
industry.
So we're getting lots ofsubject matter experts in as
well, also getting practicalskills as well, so hopefully
we're equipping people with theskills they need to actually do
the job, rather than justsitting there and learning about
it.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Really, Sure, I mean you and I both gonna be well, I
am an alumni, you're gonna be analumni.
So I did mine back in twothousand, I think, was I really
chose cramfield because of thepractical element, because
they've got a range and they'vegot shooting range, of gun,
explosive range, but the coursethere is very much hands on kind
of practical ed rather thanacademia, academic, you know,
and I think that's reallyimportant, isn't it in the sense
(08:51):
of you can't not be hands on infire, investigation and CSI,
can you?
I'm really interested nowyou've moved from public sector
to private sector and Iobviously did a similar thing,
but what do you see is some ofthe differences or the
challenges?
I know it's early days for you,but what do you see?
Some of the differences,challenges already.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yes, like I said, I literally just in through the
door.
What I would say is reallyrefreshing is having a lot more
autonomy, so a lot more controlover what my day looks like,
have a lot more ability tomanage my diary and having a few
different irons in the fire.
So my new boss is very keen onme doing things like additional
training, delivering learning atcramfield, supporting me
(09:32):
through writing my thesis, andthings like that, which is
really refreshing.
It's hard to say really I'mquite new in.
It's gonna be very differentfrom having that huge
institution behind you that youhave when you work for somewhere
like the police or the firebrigade.
Yeah, it's gonna be different,but I am really looking forward
to sort of being able to use mymind a little bit more and maybe
things myself right reportsfrom my opinion, rather than
(09:55):
kind of just following the norm,if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
So I'm really looking forward to actually sort of
stepping into the shoes theperson who has an opinion, if
that makes sense, rather than,yeah, I mean you Writing
strategies and examine in yeah,I mean you obviously is a CSI
witnesses a factor will notallowed to a pine, will not
allowed to give opinion, andmoving from that to full time
fire investigator, you are nowgonna be an expert witness.
(10:19):
You know if I probably gonnaput you through some of the
expert witness on solar andthose types of courses etc.
For my point of view.
I think it might sound strangebut I think the weight of
evidence or the weight ofcriticism I think in the private
sector is a bit heavier thanthe public sector.
I spoke to a few fire serviceFI's and we obviously turn up so
many in a suit or in ouruniform and depends if you
(10:40):
please, or your fire service oryour CSI civilian, but you turn
up and you kind of give youevidence and less and less, I
found, as my career went on, youyou were questioned less and
less about certain things youevidence was given.
I found it really difficult inthe sense of in the private
sector there are differences,opinions and other experts will,
I guess, because in the privatesector there's money involved
(11:04):
at the end of the day andobviously we will get into
cognitive bias, will get intointegrity and that kind of stuff
later on in.
Perhaps we can briefly discusshere.
I mean, csi's have to haveintegrity bound in.
You know, we know plenty ofCSI's who They've lied over
something and integrity shot andthey've lost their job, they've
lost their role.
Where is you know?
I found in the private sectornot the same that the integrity
(11:25):
is less but also there's a moreof a pressure from loss of
justice is more of pressurethere To perhaps look in favor
of one way or the other.
So that was a bit shocked to me.
So I think that's somethingthat will maybe you have to deal
with.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Think, speaking to other guys gone yeah, I know I
was gonna say so.
I obviously have just beenspeaking to my colleagues about
this and it's kind of mindblowing because I'm used to
having Ethics, integrity,honesty and everything.
It's random.
You're through, and rightly soit should be.
You should work completely Withintegrity and hold your ethics
close to your chest.
It's really important to hearthat maybe Sometimes that could
(12:01):
be questionable or that evensometimes some people advocating
Is really concerning and it isgonna be a real change and it's
gonna be a real.
I'm used to working in a teamwhere we're not looking at
prosecuting someone, we're justlooking at providing evidence,
we're just looking at providingfacts.
So it's gonna be a real changeto go to an environment where I
(12:22):
might be working with somebodyfrom another company who is, you
know, arguing for argumentssake because they're advocating
for a company.
That really doesn't sitcomfortably with me.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Nor does it with anyone, I don't think no, no, it
doesn't know.
I think with the police side ofthings, obviously we're used to
full disclosure.
Everything's got to be givenover to avoid those miscarriages
, justice.
I'm not saying that the privatesector is any way different.
We all know there are advocatesout there, there are shooting,
smoking guns and people who willsay things that probably, if
(12:53):
they're not necessarily thatmight be in favor, or muddy the
waters, you know.
So I think that was somethingthat I had to really get used to
.
But yeah, I mean we know thereare small minority and Majority
people are.
I've got in Tokyo because atthe end of the day, of course
you know, under the ForensicScience regulations and the code
of conduct, our duties to thecourt and not to the client.
(13:14):
So it'd be interesting to seehow I can't with that.
Yeah, we'll have you back in thecut in a year's time or
something.
See how it's going.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I think it's like anything.
It's probably a tiny, tinyminority of people because, yeah
, pretty much everybody I've metthroughout my career has been
Outstanding.
So, yeah, we just got to makesure, as the new generation of
FIs work in private sector,we're making that change and I
have to say, the people thatI've met within the company that
I work for We've already spokenabout that, already over lunch
(13:42):
or in the office.
We're already talking about it.
So the fact that we're evenaware of it means that we can
stop it from happening in thefuture.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Exactly.
I picked up on something yousaid there as well as, like I
found, the one of the biggestPlus points for me really in the
private sector is that it is mycase.
In the police, obviously, we asCSIs, as FIs and CSI, we turn
up.
We might work with, obviously,a fire service FI, we might have
a forensic scientist there,prometheus or fire Scientists as
(14:09):
they like to be known, and wemight work in that sort of area.
But afterwards, once we've doneour investigation, we very
rarely might not see the endresult, whereas with in the
private sector, I really like it.
So this is my case and I canfollow up and do the CCTV review
and do all those good things.
So it's reallymultidisciplinary, but it's my
case at the end of the day.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
I mean that as well.
The investigation side ofthings is what we love as well,
isn't it?
It's not just about the science, it's also about the
investigation, and it's notowning a case, but seeing it
from start to finish and beingable to make sure that you've
done it to the fullest that youcan and that you're doing like a
whole of that case.
You're doing the science, butyou're also doing the run-up,
you're doing the witnessstatements, you're doing the
CCTV, you're doing your socialmedia checks.
(14:51):
You're doing all of that.
So, yeah, I'm really lookingforward to that side of it as
well.
And you get to know the endresult, because sometimes, as a
CSI, you can just get caught upin job after job after job.
Exactly and you don't always getto know the end result, do you?
Speaker 1 (15:04):
yeah, and normally CID or a major crime
investigation team.
They're normally having a drinkdown the pub after successful
job and it's your evidence.
Let's help get that.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
There has been a change.
So, especially where I used towork, they're starting to move
much more towards making CSIsaware, because that's why you do
the job, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
You get job satisfaction out of knowing that
what you're doing has led to agood result.
So actually where I've comefrom, they've got a lot better
at making CSIs aware, and I meanthere were jobs that I were
involved in where I actuallywould go out for like drinks
after with barristers and allthat kind On big jobs, just
because it's important torecognize what you've achieved
as a team really absolutely,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I mean, I always say, from a fire investigation and a
crime scene investigation we'rethe evidence recoverers.
But we've moved.
When I first started, we werevery much evidence gatherers and
seen as evidence gatherers andthat was it, whereas now much
more, and I think it's a bitcheesy, but since CSI and the
change in title just that changein title we are investigators
as opposed to just evidencegatherers.
(16:02):
I haven't heard the word Justcan you come down and
forensicate something in a longtime, but you stop in all the
time or just come down to dosome fingerprinting.
Well, of what?
For what reason?
So yeah, it's interesting, it'sinteresting.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
It's been a nice move .
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Yeah Well, I know you'll be successful is because
you're successful in everythingyou do.
So One thing I picked up on wasyou said you're a people person
.
I think we might have slightlydifferent motivations in the
sense of are you still a peopleperson after 15 years of dealing
with probably the lesserpleasant side of life?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
I definitely say I like people, I like interacting
with people.
I just like sociology,psychology of people as well.
I would say I'm naturally quitea positive person, which I
think really does irritate.
I have to say, like the 15years in the police absolutely
loved it.
I don't think I was getting toa point where I wasn't like
Enjoying the job due to thecrimes that I was dealing with.
(16:56):
I could still quite happily goand do that.
So I would definitely say that Ithink I will actually miss
those jobs as well.
I'll miss those reallyhigh-profile, really interesting
dynamic cases, that teamenvironment.
But yeah, I would definitelysay I'm a people person, but I
would also say I'm quitetechnical.
I would class myself as like tobe cheesy, a Prachademic, like
(17:16):
I would say I'm definitelypractical, but I'm also really
into technical academia side ofthings as well.
So I think those skills arereally important in Fi Because
you need to stay at the top ofyour game technically but you
also need to be practical.
You need to be able to workhard but you also need to be
able to interview people, dealwith witnesses and that kind of
thing.
So definitely really good tohave people skills.
(17:38):
I don't know if you still feellike you're a people person, or
would you feel like, no, I stilldefinitely people person,
definitely a people person.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Some people do it for the victims and I was kind of
the reverse.
I always wanted to catch theperson that did it and I think
for a psychological point ofview, from a mental health point
of view, I sort of flipped thatswitch very early on in my
career in the sense of didn'treally want to deal with what
happened to the victims ifyou're talking about a murder or
Deliberate fire to cover up amurder or something like that.
(18:06):
But it was less about thevictims and more about the
suspects and trying to obviouslycatch the right person that
done it.
But yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Reservation, isn't it , if you think too much about?
Speaker 1 (18:16):
you.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
It's awful, but if you get downtrodden with victims
and dead and children andthings like that, you have to
protect yourself because it canbe a very dark job.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Definitely.
I know the fire service guys.
They deal with road trafficaccidents and that kind of stuff
as well, as well as the bodiesin the fire, and obviously we
come along, we have to recoverthat body and do certain
Processes and techniques withthat body to recover it properly
for forensic evidence.
So I'm not gonna harp on aboutit in the podcast, but I think
it's something that's muchbetter understood and much
(18:45):
better Focused on, you know,with old trim training and that
kind of mental welfare stuff.
So yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
I was very privileged in my old force.
They actually trained me to bea trim assessor.
It was something I was reallyinterested in because, again,
I'm a people person.
So I have to say that thatprocess, since it's been
introduced, been reallysuccessful, not just in CSI but
in the police forces in generalreally, really successful,
supporting people and helpingpeople.
As soon as we can help peoplethe better really.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
I think.
I remember when I first startedyou had to fill out a form if
you had any mental health issuesand Everyone used to whether
you had or whether you hadn't.
And at that stage of my life Ihadn't had any mental issues
because I hadn't seen what I wasgonna see for the next 30 or
years.
But no one ever said yesbecause if you put yes on a you
were out.
It was just simple as that.
You know.
(19:30):
I'm glad that's kind of changedand things are much better, and
I know some of your colleaguesare.
Well, most police forcesobviously majority police forces
have a responsibility now forthat kind of mental health issue
.
I was just interested in termsof any kind of interesting case
that you dealt with.
I think you dealt with the onein Bristol.
You could sort of tell theaudience about that and your
experiences with that?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, as a CSI or as an FA, I don't know either.
Yes, One of the main cases thatI had quite a lot of involvement
in was the murder of a young Ithink she was a 15 or 16 year
old girl who was thendismembered as well quite
high-profile case in Bristol,Very interesting.
So I actually was working inthe DNA laboratory at the time
for that one and examined a lotof the property there that was
(20:12):
involved in that case and wasalso involved in the postmortem
Very interesting case.
It was also very, very tragic,but I actually got to give
evidence in Crown Court for thatone and that was quite an
interesting process, shall wesay.
Yeah, I got cross-examined forjust sort of.
I think, if I remembercorrectly, probably about two
hours.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
It was quite an intense process.
That one, yeah, and it was whatit would do with, like DNA
regulations, iso 17025 and thatkind of thing.
So very interesting case andtwo convictions as a result of
it.
So it was very successful forthe force that I was working for
at the time.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, and what about FIWISE?
Anything on the FI side?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, so I mean we've had some high-profile FIs as
well.
One that sticks in my mind wasactually a hate crime where poor
chap was beaten and then set onfire and did the postmortem for
that.
One Very interesting case I'vebeen involved in actually just
before I left the police, myfirst job I crime scene managed
actually was a fatal fire with apoor, elderly, vulnerable lady
(21:09):
and she'd set fire to herselfactually using cigarette butts
believe it or not, accidental.
So that came in as suspiciousinitially, but we managed to
bottom that one out.
Yeah, some real cases that stickin your mind, but I mean
throughout what it's like?
Might you deal with?
Lots of different thingsthroughout your career,
everything from accidentaldeaths involving fire, hate
crimes mental health ismassively on the up a lot of
(21:31):
mental health involving fire.
So awesome with intent, really.
But yeah, nice varied career Ithink so far, Really looking
forward to getting more into thetechnical side of things
electrical engineering, thatkind of thing as well.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yeah, so as you go into the private side you get
involved in the obviously theCCTV more and more and also the
alarm settings and sprinklersystems and all that.
For me it was kind of a refreshin the sense of how to learn
new skills and understand newtechnologies.
And the great thing about mostof the FI firms is that they've
got an expert in something youknow.
(22:04):
They've got an expert insprinkler systems, they've got
an expert in fire alarm systems,so you're never really alone,
you can always reach out.
It's a great little family inthat way I think I've certainly
found in the two firms that I'veworked for anyway, but yeah,
good.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, we've got a nice WhatsApp group going and
that kind of thing, and I know Ican lean on my electrical
engineers, my fire safetyexperts, all those people.
So I think, definitely, if youwant to keep learning, for me,
like I'm the type of person Idon't want to stop learning I
think the day you think you knoweverything and the day you know
tomorrow, is the day for me?
Yeah, exactly, and in fire aswell, everything's changing all
(22:39):
the time, isn't it Fires thatare being used Lithium ion
batteries perfect example ofsomething really new.
Is that going to be the newchip pan fire?
We'll see, won't we?
But I think in fireinvestigation you really need to
stay at that sort of sharppointy end, because it's a very
dynamic changing environment,and I think that's why I love it
, because I don't ever want tostop learning, really.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, exactly In the teaser I said, I'm really
passionate about fireinvestigation in the sense of
it's new challenges.
It's always different.
There's different things tolearn constantly.
It is constantly changing, thetrends are changing, techniques
are changing.
You know, like bio oils, I knowyou're interested in the
lithium battery side of thingsand I'm quite interested in the
bio oils and whether the caninescan research them and search
(23:21):
for them and that kind of stuff.
So, hoping to have Andy on fromHampshire Fire Service at some
point with his dog, Andy Hill,He'll fill a podcast.
Yeah, there it is.
I don't know if the dog will beon, but maybe the dog could be
on, I don't know why not, yeah,but I think, you know, that's
really interesting in a sense ofbut I think the great thing
about a lot of our colleaguesare engineers or we're engineers
(23:44):
, and obviously I've got anengineering background, but I
think at my CSI side myobservational skills and my
logic and my reasoning wereinvaluable.
Sometimes I would see thingsthat other people didn't see,
and I think that's the skill ofa CSI is that it sounds a bit
cliche, but we are.
If you're not a trainedobserver, then you rapidly
become one, because you'reconstantly looking for eight
(24:07):
hour shift and longer.
So I think CSIs might not havea PhD from Oxford, for example
in thermodynamics or fireengineering, and I think that's
the thing to say is that youknow, if you look at all of the
firms and also the CSI teams.
Csi teams are made up ofdiverse sort of background, of
people, yeah, people, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
I have to say I think the CSIs have a lot of skills
which are applicable.
It's mixing that practicalskill element with then, if you
can get your education up, it'sgoing to give you that
background.
I have to say, a lot of theskills that you learn in CSI
things like archaeologicaltechniques, excavating it's very
applicable, it's verytransferable, I would definitely
say.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
but Well, photography is a third of our job, isn't it
as a CSI?
Arguably probably more thanhalf of the job as an FI,
because you often go to thescene and then you do your
opinionation a little bit later,when you had time to analyse
and look at things and get thatother data, the fire alarm data,
the CCTV, all that good stuff,because that always I think
(25:05):
that's the difference sometimesin the police environment we get
that information pretty quicklybecause we have the authority
and the powers to do so, whereason the private side, sometimes
if they want to give it and soyeah, so I was going to say as a
CSI, you're almost like a pieceof the jigsaw puzzle, whereas
as an FI you are the jigsawpuzzle.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Does that make sense?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (25:26):
definitely.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
You're normally all of it or you're part of it, and
maybe you get your littleelectrical engineer that can add
something, or you get yoursprinkler person who can add
something.
But I think as a CSI you're asmall part of a jigsaw, whereas
as an FI you're probably allthat.
You control that jigsaw, ifthat makes sense.
So you've got more ownership.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
I think I knew a CSI who worked for Fire Air
Investigation, forensicEngineering, fire Investigation
firm in Canada.
She was British but she used tojust go out and do all the
documentation.
She used to do all the sketches, all the photography, all the
notes because she wasn't alicense.
In the US and in Canada theyhave to be a licensed engineer,
professional engineer, so youcan't opine on things like that
(26:03):
unless you've got your PE status.
So the only real way you can dothat in the States is if you've
done an engineering degree andyou also go for the PE license
process, engineering training,that kind of stuff.
I think that kind of shows theskill of a CSI is that this CSI
was able to go out and do a goodenough job for other engineers
to then opine upon what's hernotes and her sketch plans and
(26:25):
her photography at that firescene.
So I think that's really whereour skills come in and then as
you develop them as time goes on.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
But Is that a meticulous, methodical,
logistical, isn't it?
It's those things that you'rejust applying to a different
type of scene, really, aren'tyou?
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Exactly exactly you mentioned Mary Jane there.
Is it a plan to do an MSC oranything?
Because I know there's an MSCin UCLan.
I think they do an MSC in fireinvestigation, but I don't know
if Crumfield intends to developany kind of MSC program in fire
investigation.
I know they do one in.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
The one that I did was forensic investigation of
explosions and explosives.
There is talk of maybedeveloping the MSC.
I had a chat with someone whileI was up at Crumfield a couple
of weeks ago running theintroduction to fire
investigation actually.
So there is talk of that goingon.
I mean Crumfield University,fantastic university not just
saying that because I know howit worked there, but the
networking that I've had thereand the people I've met I don't
know if you'd get that atanother university.
(27:20):
I really don't think I've metso many people from private
sector, public sector,counterterrorism, archaeology,
people from every single nuclearpolice I think I've met.
I've met people from abroad.
I just don't know where elseyou would meet that diverse
level of people and have theopportunities to network.
I mean I've met somebody frompart of security and
(27:42):
anti-terrorism within DenmarkAmazing people.
Crumfield's really got a lot tooffer and that's why I've
decided to sort of move forwardwith them and start thinking
about teaching there, becauseit's a good institute to be
involved with really.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Yeah, definitely.
I think when I run coming thecourses there we had a couple of
guys from the Air AccidentInvestigation Branch who had
just come for the specialistknowledge of the fireside of
things.
There was another guy from arocket company and there was an
explosive engineer as well.
So, yeah, it's a really diversebackground.
There's military, because Ithink Cranfield's got fairly
close calls.
It obviously was based at RoyalMilitary College all the
(28:17):
Defence Academy as they call itnow, so it was based at
Shrivenham on their main site.
So I think they've always hadclose links with military and I
think with military a militaryacross the world, I think that
allows and civil defence, likePort and Down, dstl, those kinds
of organisations.
So some of the projects they'vegot, some of the PhDs they've
got going are really great.
I mean we're sounding a littlebit like an advert for Cranfield
(28:39):
really, but I don't work thereanymore.
I wouldn't push them unless Ibelieve they are a really good
institute.
But of course there are otherorganisations out there.
I mean I know UCLan and theirfire investigation.
A lot of colleagues have beenthrough that and a lot of people
have got great things to sayabout that as well.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
I was just saying.
The only reason I didn't reallystudy with UCLan was because it
wasn't going to work with mewith working.
I picked Cranfield because theydo the modular system as well.
So if you're working all time,you can split it out part time
in a tender week.
So you've got to do 11 modulesand do those when it suits you.
Really, uclan is meant to bevery, very good as well.
I've just met somebody actuallywho's done his masters there
(29:15):
and he said it was outstanding.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Yeah, definitely.
I think we're going tohopefully have Steve a sort of
leader up there on at some point.
I hope he's tempted him on.
I don't think he knows that yet, but I'm definitely going to
ask him.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I saw your sweet talking.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah, hopefully, hopefully, but of course there's
other organisations.
Are you a member of anycertifications?
You know organisations.
Are you a member of NationalAssociation UK AFI?
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Yeah, definitely.
So I've joined UKFI.
Just recently actually, I was amember of the International
Association of Art andInvestigators and I was very
privileged to actually have achat with Dr Peter Manzi.
I just reached out to him andhe was so kind.
He said, yeah, let's set up aZoom meeting, and I had a chat
with him and he gave me somegood advice.
But, yeah, I met Emma Wilson,who works for Meteos.
I think she's one of the corepeople that run UKFI and I've
(30:01):
just joined that actually.
So that's another good one, Ithink.
If you're looking at gettinginto FI and you want to meet
people network, then I can't,unfortunately, make the
conference this year.
I wasn't lucky enough to get aticket, but I think you're
attending, aren't you?
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I joined on the John Lintini course, which is the
three day course after.
I'm still trying to pressurisehim to let me into the
conference because again Imissed it as well because work
delayed the decision and then Imissed out on the place.
But I'm still hoping that I geta cancellation.
But yeah, you mentioned Emmathere.
Emma's the past president,James Aikot is the current
president.
But yeah, I think you know,agree with you, not just in the
(30:33):
UK.
There's lots of chapters as agolf association, of FI
investigation here in Dubai andthere's various different
chapters all around the worldOne in South Africa, I think
there's one in Brazil.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
It's a real international one as well.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Yeah, there's a real international organisation and I
went on a 40 hour introductionto FI investigation course in
San Antonio.
Yeah, that was very nice.
Thank you, lee Masson fromStathick for sending me.
Yeah, that was great.
It was a really interestingcourse.
I think we do things slightlydifferent here in the States.
I mean, they are very much theBible is the NFPA 921 and 10133
(31:07):
and they really do stick to it.
But I think they come under alot more scrutiny in the court
system than we do.
They have to, you know, almostfight to prove that they're
actually legitimate to giveevidence every single time.
But I think that's a good thingand I think NFPA will influence
and come further and further,and it should do, because it
teaches you about the scientificmethod and it's really
certainly one of the textbooksI've got, you know, next to me,
(31:29):
I've got John Lentini's book aswell next to me and I've got
John DeHans Kirk's book as well.
So those are real three sort ofmainstay of my reading list and
my referral and the conditionhandbook as well as another one.
But that's very expensive, butit's incredibly useful.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Most of them seem to be very expensive books.
But yeah, no, I agree, we allseem to tend to work.
I mean, NFPA is the standard,isn't it?
That's the way we should workin in the scientific.
I have to say that's anotherthing.
Going from CSI to fireinvestigation is.
I was teaching some CSI isactually FI this week and it's
learning about the scientificmethod and understanding that
approach, even applying thatapproach to just standard
(32:07):
investigation anyway, not evenfire investigation.
I spoke to somebody who worksin SO 15 and working at that
high level he said he appliesthat scientific approach to CSI
within SO 15.
So it's so core to FI butthere's so many principles about
it which is so applicable toother methods of investigation.
I think we should be startingto apply that more just to
(32:27):
general investigation as well.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think you're absolutelyright there.
The SO 15 counterterrorismsquad of the UK Metropolitan
Police, uk.
Really they cover all kinds ofterrorism.
Was that Chris?
Was that Chris Hester?
Speaker 2 (32:39):
It was Chris Hester, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Yeah, okay, so have to Chris on as well.
He's got a massive amount ofexperience, so he has, he's
exceptional.
Okay, yeah.
So what would you say tosomeone who's currently I don't
know how you were inspired?
I mean, it's clear to me thatyou want to be an investigator
very early on, the same as me.
From about eight or nine yearsold I wanted to be a detective.
And where we are forensicdetectives.
(33:01):
Really, what advice would yougive to someone unconscious that
you're a woman?
I can tell just by looking atyou.
What would you say to someone?
Well, maybe we can discuss aswell about the.
Csi does tend to be dominatedby female operators, I think
mainly because they're better atit, but I think the FI world is
slightly more orientatedtowards the males population,
(33:21):
but there are numerous females.
Have you sort of faced anychallenges in that way?
Do you perceive any challengesin that way?
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I mean, throughout my career.
It's that standard thing oflike going to a job with a bloke
, really, and then alwaysturning around and speaking to
the man before they talk to me.
I think it's just that standardthing, isn't it?
I'd be lying if I said Ihaven't encountered things like
misogyny, that kind of thing,throughout my career.
What I would say is it's justabout being professional, really
, and it's about provingyourself as well.
You shouldn't really have toprove yourself, but it's just
(33:49):
about making sure yourreputation you're as good as
your reputation.
So what I would say is, if youdo encounter those things as a
woman, it's about challengingthem, challenging them
professionally.
Also, about when you're dealingwith people who are younger
than you or who you're mentoring.
It's about making sure thatyou're making that change, that
you're role modeling what isappropriate behavior as well.
(34:12):
I'd be lying if I said I haven'tencountered it.
But yeah, I am going to beworking in a predominantly male
environment.
That's not a problem for me.
I don't mind working with men,but it's just about being as
good as your reputation.
Women are just as good as guysin pretty much everything.
It's not making a thing out ofit, is it?
But it's recognizing it when itdoes happen and challenging it,
definitely Just beingprofessional and challenging it.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Good, okay, and if you, let's take you back now to
15, 20 years ago.
If you could speak to yourselfnow, what advice would you sort
of give yourself to end up whereyou are now?
Is there anything you would doquicker?
Was there anything that youwould perhaps do differently?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
I would definitely say just have confidence in
yourself.
I think when I first startedout just as a CSI, it's a very
intimidating environment as,like a what a 24 year old,
you're surrounded by people withamazing amounts of experience.
What I would say is soak thatup, be a sponge.
So call that experience up, beopen to learning, but also have
(35:10):
confidence in your ability.
It's just that I always call itlike a quiet confidence.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Definitely.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Confident.
Just be quietly confident, beprofessional.
With that confidence as well, Ithink if I could change
anything it's hard to say Iwould probably say I've gone
into education and decided tochange my career, just as I
decided to start a family, soit's been quite challenging.
I've got nearly four year oldand a just coming up one year
old and I've been doing amasters throughout that and
(35:36):
writing a thesis, so that's beenchallenging.
So I probably should havestarted that before I started
thinking about having a family.
It would have made my life alot easier.
But I like a challenge, yeah.
But I would say to anybodystarting off new in the job just
be a sponge.
Soak everything up yourreputation, stick to that, have
your integrity and honesty andjust work hard.
(35:56):
Really, people are going towant to work with you if you
work hard and you're a goodperson to work with.
Bring biscuits always helps.
If you ever turn up to a job,be the person that brings the
biscuits.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Because people love you.
Yeah, and not the cheap oneseither.
Bring some custard creams andsome Bourbons yeah, some
Bourbons.
Yeah, yeah, good, lucy, thankyou ever so much for coming on.
I think we'll call it a daythere and I really appreciate
your time.
As I said, you are the pioneer.
(36:26):
I hope I get better at this astime goes on, but you've been
absolutely fantastic, so I knewyou would be, which is why I
wanted you on very early on inthe podcast series, and thanks
very much for your time.
Thanks very much for youreffort and I really look forward
to seeing how you develop andhopefully you'll come back on at
some point and tell us andmaybe give us.
The idea is to have some themesas we go along, and so I know
(36:47):
that you are doing some research, maybe around some lithium
batteries and bits and pieces,and be fantastic to have you
back on at some point to discussthat.
So thanks so much, lucy.
Is there anything else you'djust like to say before you go,
or are you done?
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Yeah, thanks so much for inviting me.
It's an absolute pleasurereally looking forward to seeing
where this podcast goes.
It's exciting times.
So, yeah, thank you so much,mike.
It's absolute pleasure to speakto you and work with you, as
always.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
All right.
Thanks so much, Lucy.
You take care and hopefully seeyou on the job someday.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
We'll see you roundabout.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Cheers.
Hey, thank you for listening toCSI on Fire.
Please don't forget to like,subscribe and suggest future
topics on our webpage.
Remember factor and nonverver.
Take care, good hunting.
I hope to see you on the nextone, cheers.
Hi, welcome to CSI on Fire, the podcast that takes
you behind the scenes of thefire investigation community.
I'm your host, mike Molden.
An episode after episode willattempt to excavate the often
difficult but always fascinatingworld of the fire investigator.
Thanks very much, lees, forcoming on.
(00:26):
You are a pioneer.
I don't know if you'll end upregretting this or we'll see
this, as you are the first everinterviewee on CSI on Fire.
So thanks very much.
I really appreciate your time.
I know you're very busy, thankyou, we'll come into that a
little bit later, but I justreally wanted to start off with
well, I always want to have alittle kind of full disclosure
(00:46):
bit in the sense of you and Iknow each other.
We've known each other forprobably about four or five
years now, I think.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Maybe Something like that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yeah, so it's really just to say that we know each
other, we've kind of workedtogether and, yeah, just take us
through who you are really,lees, and your background in
fire investigation.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
No worries, thanks for inviting me, mike.
Very kind of you.
So I've been working inforensics for about the last 15
years now.
I first started off with aBachelor of Science in Forensic
Science from GlomorganUniversity.
So I always knew that I wantedto work within sort of
scientific field, but I alsoreally like people.
I found it.
I thought what can I do?
I still want to go and work ina lab the rest of my life.
(01:21):
For me, working in forensicswas like that perfect
combination of being a forensicscientist but also going to deal
with lots of people frontline.
Really.
I left university and I knew Iwanted to get into CSI.
Really my sister was a policeofficer, dog handler and
firearms officer, had quite afew members of my family in the
police.
I knew CSI was where I wantedto go, but I knew it was going
(01:43):
to be really, really difficultto get a job.
Kind of thought to myself well,what skills do I need to join
the police really to be a CSI?
So I started creating thatlittle toolkit and really
thinking about getting all theskills I can get outside of
public sector to give me theskills to get in.
So I started working for apharmaceutical company
specialising in spectroscopictechniques, things like HPLC and
(02:04):
things like that.
So I was working in qualitycontrol of drugs.
Really that gave me lots ofskills so that I could put in my
application to the police andhopefully get a job.
So having done that, I appliedfor the police.
I got very lucky, went throughmy interviews and things and I
got offered a job as anassistant CSI and I did that for
a couple of years.
So that was working at sort oflower level crime without an
(02:24):
aggravating factor, things likeburglaries, things like that.
But I always knew I loved fireseven at that point because I'd
done quite a lot of fireinvestigation in my foundation
degree and I knew that fire waswhere I wanted to go.
So I got really friendly with achap in my office actually who
was an extremely experienced CSIand fire investigator and he
started taking me out to jobstraight away with fires.
(02:46):
So that could have been thingslike fatal fires or hate crimes,
mental health, that kind ofthing.
So I was exposed to fires sortof really early on in my career,
which I was very lucky with.
Anyway, in the police Iprogressed up through the ranks,
then became a crime sceneinvestigator after a couple of
years as a fully fledged one sothat I could deal with anything
sort of any level.
So from your car being brokeninto all the way up to sort of a
(03:08):
category one murder Developedmy skills in fire investigation
through that.
I also worked as a DNA analystin a ISO accredited laboratory,
which was really interesting.
I became a crime scene manageras well.
The very nice Mike Muldentrained me on my crime scene
managers course and that's kindof where we initially met.
Anyway, in 2019 I attended alevel five course at the fire
(03:29):
service college where I becamesort of qualified fire
investigator for the police then, and with that has come lots of
opportunities.
So I also lecture at Cranfieldforensic institute there in
things like fire investigation,just setting up course now for
fire engineering as well, andI'm doing a masters there in
explosions and explosives.
That's kind of my passion aswell.
I'm really into explosions.
(03:50):
About six or seven months ago Ijust handed in my notice
actually in the police afterworking there for nearly 15
years, and I've decided to moveover into the private sector.
So, yeah, I've just started ajob with a company called EFI
Global, so I'm going to becarrying out fire and explosion
investigations.
For them.
They're an insurance company,so looking at getting more into
the kind of that being my corerole rather than it being sort
(04:14):
of extra to the main role that Ido really, yeah, sure, I
mentioned in the sort of teaserepisode of CSI on fire is that
CSIs don't necessarily we're notalways at fire scenes.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
you know you're lucky if you get to, maybe two a
month depends on the force.
So yeah, it's reallyinteresting.
I think we actually first meton the fire investigation
because I came and gave alecture and you answered all the
questions correctly so you werethe only interactive one, I
think, to be honest with you,but that must have been 2018,
2019, I think.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Oh, wow, okay, so quite a while ago then, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, and obviously we then did the crime scene
managers course.
We worked on that together.
I think it's really interestingfor those potential listeners
who are interested in maybegoing from the public sector to
the private sector.
Certainly, I mean, if you thinkabout some of the people that
we both know at EFI John Lloyd,for example, neil, they've all
come over from the public sectoras FIs and then into the
(05:09):
private sector and I think youknow that's a route for I mean,
you're nowhere near a time andloose, you know, but it's a
route for public sectors whenthey come to the end of their
career.
But yeah, I actually never knew.
I never realized your sisterwas in the job as well.
So that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yes, she was, she's not anymore.
Yeah, so I've got quite a lotof my family in the police as
well, really.
But I would definitely say ifyou're thinking about going from
public to private, that you doneed to think about.
If you're going to be workingat that higher level, sort of
more specialized, you think youneed to start thinking about how
you can get your CV up to date.
So thinking about your academiaand that kind of thing really,
and, I have to say, doing themasters.
(05:46):
I did that part time with myjob, which is quite demanding.
It's a lot going on.
I've got a family and thingslike that.
But Definitely, if you'rethinking about moving from
public to private and you'relooking at working at sort of a
more technical level, thinkabout Up in your CV a bit maybe,
where you can get some moreeducation and qualifications
there as well to support that.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I think in the world of both CSI and if I, without
the call of cake, I mean someguys of you, excellent and fire
again, even if you think about,I don't know, the P Mansi is the
world doctor, peter Mansi, asis now, and, as I mentioned,
john Lloyd, etc.
They've all got some kind ofqualifications.
I think If you want to look forthe private sector, people like
Hawkins, like Burgoy and likethe fire somebody, other firms
(06:26):
are out there.
They will look for aqualification, money, they will
look for some sort of specialistreally.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yeah, if you're gonna be given evidence in court or
writing reports, working at thatsort of more expert witness
level rather than sort ofwitness of fact, you need to
probably have a few morequalifications.
And you about taking you I meansome of these people they've
got 20 or 30 years experience.
You just can't argue with that.
It's astounding if you have gotsome more qualifications and
things get you to get uptogether and you'll be much more
(06:55):
employable in the privatesector.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Yeah, I think that's maybe where the cramfield
courses, because obviously I hadsome involvement in that and I
think you can even do shortcourses that.
Can't you just tell us a bitmore about that loose, what you
intend to do there and what'sthe school there?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, myself and Dr Mary Jane Hardin gonna be what
we have run already theintroduction to fire
investigation.
We're gonna be running the fireengineering module at the end
of January and then the fire andexplosives investigation Module
at the start of March in aspart of your masters there.
So they run lots of differenttypes of masters courses and
then you can specialize incertain things like fire
(07:29):
investigation or fireengineering.
But you can also take it as ashort course for credit
cramfield as well.
So we have had externalcandidates who have come in from
, say, large electricalmanufacturing companies or some
of the large names, thecompanies out there, and you can
get short course for credits.
So the courses are reallydesigned to be Based not just
(07:49):
around classroom learning butalso practical learning.
On every one of those threemodules we try and expose the
students and the candidates toreal life learning.
So that might be the local firefire service college.
So we took some students lasttime to capture an Isle of Wight
Fire school that absolutelyamazing facilities for learning
their great.
So students actually got tocarry out proper fire
(08:11):
investigation.
So it's all about reallycreating like that collaborative
learning really where peopleare learning from experts in
industry.
So we're getting lots ofsubject matter experts in as
well, also getting practicalskills as well, so hopefully
we're equipping people with theskills they need to actually do
the job, rather than justsitting there and learning about
it.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Really, Sure, I mean you and I both gonna be well, I
am an alumni, you're gonna be analumni.
So I did mine back in twothousand, I think, was I really
chose cramfield because of thepractical element, because
they've got a range and they'vegot shooting range, of gun,
explosive range, but the coursethere is very much hands on kind
of practical ed rather thanacademia, academic, you know,
and I think that's reallyimportant, isn't it in the sense
(08:51):
of you can't not be hands on infire, investigation and CSI,
can you?
I'm really interested nowyou've moved from public sector
to private sector and Iobviously did a similar thing,
but what do you see is some ofthe differences or the
challenges?
I know it's early days for you,but what do you see?
Some of the differences,challenges already.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yes, like I said, I literally just in through the
door.
What I would say is reallyrefreshing is having a lot more
autonomy, so a lot more controlover what my day looks like,
have a lot more ability tomanage my diary and having a few
different irons in the fire.
So my new boss is very keen onme doing things like additional
training, delivering learning atcramfield, supporting me
(09:32):
through writing my thesis, andthings like that, which is
really refreshing.
It's hard to say really I'mquite new in.
It's gonna be very differentfrom having that huge
institution behind you that youhave when you work for somewhere
like the police or the firebrigade.
Yeah, it's gonna be different,but I am really looking forward
to sort of being able to use mymind a little bit more and maybe
things myself right reportsfrom my opinion, rather than
(09:55):
kind of just following the norm,if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
So I'm really looking forward to actually sort of
stepping into the shoes theperson who has an opinion, if
that makes sense, rather than,yeah, I mean you Writing
strategies and examine in yeah,I mean you obviously is a CSI
witnesses a factor will notallowed to a pine, will not
allowed to give opinion, andmoving from that to full time
fire investigator, you are nowgonna be an expert witness.
(10:19):
You know if I probably gonnaput you through some of the
expert witness on solar andthose types of courses etc.
For my point of view.
I think it might sound strangebut I think the weight of
evidence or the weight ofcriticism I think in the private
sector is a bit heavier thanthe public sector.
I spoke to a few fire serviceFI's and we obviously turn up so
many in a suit or in ouruniform and depends if you
(10:40):
please, or your fire service oryour CSI civilian, but you turn
up and you kind of give youevidence and less and less, I
found, as my career went on, youyou were questioned less and
less about certain things youevidence was given.
I found it really difficult inthe sense of in the private
sector there are differences,opinions and other experts will,
I guess, because in the privatesector there's money involved
(11:04):
at the end of the day andobviously we will get into
cognitive bias, will get intointegrity and that kind of stuff
later on in.
Perhaps we can briefly discusshere.
I mean, csi's have to haveintegrity bound in.
You know, we know plenty ofCSI's who They've lied over
something and integrity shot andthey've lost their job, they've
lost their role.
Where is you know?
I found in the private sectornot the same that the integrity
(11:25):
is less but also there's a moreof a pressure from loss of
justice is more of pressurethere To perhaps look in favor
of one way or the other.
So that was a bit shocked to me.
So I think that's somethingthat will maybe you have to deal
with.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Think, speaking to other guys gone yeah, I know I
was gonna say so.
I obviously have just beenspeaking to my colleagues about
this and it's kind of mindblowing because I'm used to
having Ethics, integrity,honesty and everything.
It's random.
You're through, and rightly soit should be.
You should work completely Withintegrity and hold your ethics
close to your chest.
It's really important to hearthat maybe Sometimes that could
(12:01):
be questionable or that evensometimes some people advocating
Is really concerning and it isgonna be a real change and it's
gonna be a real.
I'm used to working in a teamwhere we're not looking at
prosecuting someone, we're justlooking at providing evidence,
we're just looking at providingfacts.
So it's gonna be a real changeto go to an environment where I
(12:22):
might be working with somebodyfrom another company who is, you
know, arguing for argumentssake because they're advocating
for a company.
That really doesn't sitcomfortably with me.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Nor does it with anyone, I don't think no, no, it
doesn't know.
I think with the police side ofthings, obviously we're used to
full disclosure.
Everything's got to be givenover to avoid those miscarriages
, justice.
I'm not saying that the privatesector is any way different.
We all know there are advocatesout there, there are shooting,
smoking guns and people who willsay things that probably, if
(12:53):
they're not necessarily thatmight be in favor, or muddy the
waters, you know.
So I think that was somethingthat I had to really get used to
.
But yeah, I mean we know thereare small minority and Majority
people are.
I've got in Tokyo because atthe end of the day, of course
you know, under the ForensicScience regulations and the code
of conduct, our duties to thecourt and not to the client.
(13:14):
So it'd be interesting to seehow I can't with that.
Yeah, we'll have you back in thecut in a year's time or
something.
See how it's going.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I think it's like anything.
It's probably a tiny, tinyminority of people because, yeah
, pretty much everybody I've metthroughout my career has been
Outstanding.
So, yeah, we just got to makesure, as the new generation of
FIs work in private sector,we're making that change and I
have to say, the people thatI've met within the company that
I work for We've already spokenabout that, already over lunch
(13:42):
or in the office.
We're already talking about it.
So the fact that we're evenaware of it means that we can
stop it from happening in thefuture.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Exactly.
I picked up on something yousaid there as well as, like I
found, the one of the biggestPlus points for me really in the
private sector is that it is mycase.
In the police, obviously, we asCSIs, as FIs and CSI, we turn
up.
We might work with, obviously,a fire service FI, we might have
a forensic scientist there,prometheus or fire Scientists as
(14:09):
they like to be known, and wemight work in that sort of area.
But afterwards, once we've doneour investigation, we very
rarely might not see the endresult, whereas with in the
private sector, I really like it.
So this is my case and I canfollow up and do the CCTV review
and do all those good things.
So it's reallymultidisciplinary, but it's my
case at the end of the day.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
I mean that as well.
The investigation side ofthings is what we love as well,
isn't it?
It's not just about the science, it's also about the
investigation, and it's notowning a case, but seeing it
from start to finish and beingable to make sure that you've
done it to the fullest that youcan and that you're doing like a
whole of that case.
You're doing the science, butyou're also doing the run-up,
you're doing the witnessstatements, you're doing the
CCTV, you're doing your socialmedia checks.
(14:51):
You're doing all of that.
So, yeah, I'm really lookingforward to that side of it as
well.
And you get to know the endresult, because sometimes, as a
CSI, you can just get caught upin job after job after job.
Exactly and you don't always getto know the end result, do you?
Speaker 1 (15:04):
yeah, and normally CID or a major crime
investigation team.
They're normally having a drinkdown the pub after successful
job and it's your evidence.
Let's help get that.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
There has been a change.
So, especially where I used towork, they're starting to move
much more towards making CSIsaware, because that's why you do
the job, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
You get job satisfaction out of knowing that
what you're doing has led to agood result.
So actually where I've comefrom, they've got a lot better
at making CSIs aware, and I meanthere were jobs that I were
involved in where I actuallywould go out for like drinks
after with barristers and allthat kind On big jobs, just
because it's important torecognize what you've achieved
as a team really absolutely,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I mean, I always say, from a fire investigation and a
crime scene investigation we'rethe evidence recoverers.
But we've moved.
When I first started, we werevery much evidence gatherers and
seen as evidence gatherers andthat was it, whereas now much
more, and I think it's a bitcheesy, but since CSI and the
change in title just that changein title we are investigators
as opposed to just evidencegatherers.
(16:02):
I haven't heard the word Justcan you come down and
forensicate something in a longtime, but you stop in all the
time or just come down to dosome fingerprinting.
Well, of what?
For what reason?
So yeah, it's interesting, it'sinteresting.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
It's been a nice move .
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Yeah Well, I know you'll be successful is because
you're successful in everythingyou do.
So One thing I picked up on wasyou said you're a people person
.
I think we might have slightlydifferent motivations in the
sense of are you still a peopleperson after 15 years of dealing
with probably the lesserpleasant side of life?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
I definitely say I like people, I like interacting
with people.
I just like sociology,psychology of people as well.
I would say I'm naturally quitea positive person, which I
think really does irritate.
I have to say, like the 15years in the police absolutely
loved it.
I don't think I was getting toa point where I wasn't like
Enjoying the job due to thecrimes that I was dealing with.
(16:56):
I could still quite happily goand do that.
So I would definitely say that Ithink I will actually miss
those jobs as well.
I'll miss those reallyhigh-profile, really interesting
dynamic cases, that teamenvironment.
But yeah, I would definitelysay I'm a people person, but I
would also say I'm quitetechnical.
I would class myself as like tobe cheesy, a Prachademic, like
(17:16):
I would say I'm definitelypractical, but I'm also really
into technical academia side ofthings as well.
So I think those skills arereally important in Fi Because
you need to stay at the top ofyour game technically but you
also need to be practical.
You need to be able to workhard but you also need to be
able to interview people, dealwith witnesses and that kind of
thing.
So definitely really good tohave people skills.
(17:38):
I don't know if you still feellike you're a people person, or
would you feel like, no, I stilldefinitely people person,
definitely a people person.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Some people do it for the victims and I was kind of
the reverse.
I always wanted to catch theperson that did it and I think
for a psychological point ofview, from a mental health point
of view, I sort of flipped thatswitch very early on in my
career in the sense of didn'treally want to deal with what
happened to the victims ifyou're talking about a murder or
Deliberate fire to cover up amurder or something like that.
(18:06):
But it was less about thevictims and more about the
suspects and trying to obviouslycatch the right person that
done it.
But yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Reservation, isn't it , if you think too much about?
Speaker 1 (18:16):
you.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
It's awful, but if you get downtrodden with victims
and dead and children andthings like that, you have to
protect yourself because it canbe a very dark job.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Definitely.
I know the fire service guys.
They deal with road trafficaccidents and that kind of stuff
as well, as well as the bodiesin the fire, and obviously we
come along, we have to recoverthat body and do certain
Processes and techniques withthat body to recover it properly
for forensic evidence.
So I'm not gonna harp on aboutit in the podcast, but I think
it's something that's muchbetter understood and much
(18:45):
better Focused on, you know,with old trim training and that
kind of mental welfare stuff.
So yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
I was very privileged in my old force.
They actually trained me to bea trim assessor.
It was something I was reallyinterested in because, again,
I'm a people person.
So I have to say that thatprocess, since it's been
introduced, been reallysuccessful, not just in CSI but
in the police forces in generalreally, really successful,
supporting people and helpingpeople.
As soon as we can help peoplethe better really.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
I think.
I remember when I first startedyou had to fill out a form if
you had any mental health issuesand Everyone used to whether
you had or whether you hadn't.
And at that stage of my life Ihadn't had any mental issues
because I hadn't seen what I wasgonna see for the next 30 or
years.
But no one ever said yesbecause if you put yes on a you
were out.
It was just simple as that.
You know.
(19:30):
I'm glad that's kind of changedand things are much better, and
I know some of your colleaguesare.
Well, most police forcesobviously majority police forces
have a responsibility now forthat kind of mental health issue
.
I was just interested in termsof any kind of interesting case
that you dealt with.
I think you dealt with the onein Bristol.
You could sort of tell theaudience about that and your
experiences with that?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, as a CSI or as an FA, I don't know either.
Yes, One of the main cases thatI had quite a lot of involvement
in was the murder of a young Ithink she was a 15 or 16 year
old girl who was thendismembered as well quite
high-profile case in Bristol,Very interesting.
So I actually was working inthe DNA laboratory at the time
for that one and examined a lotof the property there that was
(20:12):
involved in that case and wasalso involved in the postmortem
Very interesting case.
It was also very, very tragic,but I actually got to give
evidence in Crown Court for thatone and that was quite an
interesting process, shall wesay.
Yeah, I got cross-examined forjust sort of.
I think, if I remembercorrectly, probably about two
hours.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
It was quite an intense process.
That one, yeah, and it was whatit would do with, like DNA
regulations, iso 17025 and thatkind of thing.
So very interesting case andtwo convictions as a result of
it.
So it was very successful forthe force that I was working for
at the time.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, and what about FIWISE?
Anything on the FI side?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, so I mean we've had some high-profile FIs as
well.
One that sticks in my mind wasactually a hate crime where poor
chap was beaten and then set onfire and did the postmortem for
that.
One Very interesting case I'vebeen involved in actually just
before I left the police, myfirst job I crime scene managed
actually was a fatal fire with apoor, elderly, vulnerable lady
(21:09):
and she'd set fire to herselfactually using cigarette butts
believe it or not, accidental.
So that came in as suspiciousinitially, but we managed to
bottom that one out.
Yeah, some real cases that stickin your mind, but I mean
throughout what it's like?
Might you deal with?
Lots of different thingsthroughout your career,
everything from accidentaldeaths involving fire, hate
crimes mental health ismassively on the up a lot of
(21:31):
mental health involving fire.
So awesome with intent, really.
But yeah, nice varied career Ithink so far, Really looking
forward to getting more into thetechnical side of things
electrical engineering, thatkind of thing as well.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yeah, so as you go into the private side you get
involved in the obviously theCCTV more and more and also the
alarm settings and sprinklersystems and all that.
For me it was kind of a refreshin the sense of how to learn
new skills and understand newtechnologies.
And the great thing about mostof the FI firms is that they've
got an expert in something youknow.
(22:04):
They've got an expert insprinkler systems, they've got
an expert in fire alarm systems,so you're never really alone,
you can always reach out.
It's a great little family inthat way I think I've certainly
found in the two firms that I'veworked for anyway, but yeah,
good.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, we've got a nice WhatsApp group going and
that kind of thing, and I know Ican lean on my electrical
engineers, my fire safetyexperts, all those people.
So I think, definitely, if youwant to keep learning, for me,
like I'm the type of person Idon't want to stop learning I
think the day you think you knoweverything and the day you know
tomorrow, is the day for me?
Yeah, exactly, and in fire aswell, everything's changing all
(22:39):
the time, isn't it Fires thatare being used Lithium ion
batteries perfect example ofsomething really new.
Is that going to be the newchip pan fire?
We'll see, won't we?
But I think in fireinvestigation you really need to
stay at that sort of sharppointy end, because it's a very
dynamic changing environment,and I think that's why I love it
, because I don't ever want tostop learning, really.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, exactly In the teaser I said, I'm really
passionate about fireinvestigation in the sense of
it's new challenges.
It's always different.
There's different things tolearn constantly.
It is constantly changing, thetrends are changing, techniques
are changing.
You know, like bio oils, I knowyou're interested in the
lithium battery side of thingsand I'm quite interested in the
bio oils and whether the caninescan research them and search
(23:21):
for them and that kind of stuff.
So, hoping to have Andy on fromHampshire Fire Service at some
point with his dog, Andy Hill,He'll fill a podcast.
Yeah, there it is.
I don't know if the dog will beon, but maybe the dog could be
on, I don't know why not, yeah,but I think, you know, that's
really interesting in a sense ofbut I think the great thing
about a lot of our colleaguesare engineers or we're engineers
(23:44):
, and obviously I've got anengineering background, but I
think at my CSI side myobservational skills and my
logic and my reasoning wereinvaluable.
Sometimes I would see thingsthat other people didn't see,
and I think that's the skill ofa CSI is that it sounds a bit
cliche, but we are.
If you're not a trainedobserver, then you rapidly
become one, because you'reconstantly looking for eight
(24:07):
hour shift and longer.
So I think CSIs might not havea PhD from Oxford, for example
in thermodynamics or fireengineering, and I think that's
the thing to say is that youknow, if you look at all of the
firms and also the CSI teams.
Csi teams are made up ofdiverse sort of background, of
people, yeah, people, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
I have to say I think the CSIs have a lot of skills
which are applicable.
It's mixing that practicalskill element with then, if you
can get your education up, it'sgoing to give you that
background.
I have to say, a lot of theskills that you learn in CSI
things like archaeologicaltechniques, excavating it's very
applicable, it's verytransferable, I would definitely
say.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
but Well, photography is a third of our job, isn't it
as a CSI?
Arguably probably more thanhalf of the job as an FI,
because you often go to thescene and then you do your
opinionation a little bit later,when you had time to analyse
and look at things and get thatother data, the fire alarm data,
the CCTV, all that good stuff,because that always I think
(25:05):
that's the difference sometimesin the police environment we get
that information pretty quicklybecause we have the authority
and the powers to do so, whereason the private side, sometimes
if they want to give it and soyeah, so I was going to say as a
CSI, you're almost like a pieceof the jigsaw puzzle, whereas
as an FI you are the jigsawpuzzle.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Does that make sense?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (25:26):
definitely.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
You're normally all of it or you're part of it, and
maybe you get your littleelectrical engineer that can add
something, or you get yoursprinkler person who can add
something.
But I think as a CSI you're asmall part of a jigsaw, whereas
as an FI you're probably allthat.
You control that jigsaw, ifthat makes sense.
So you've got more ownership.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
I think I knew a CSI who worked for Fire Air
Investigation, forensicEngineering, fire Investigation
firm in Canada.
She was British but she used tojust go out and do all the
documentation.
She used to do all the sketches, all the photography, all the
notes because she wasn't alicense.
In the US and in Canada theyhave to be a licensed engineer,
professional engineer, so youcan't opine on things like that
(26:03):
unless you've got your PE status.
So the only real way you can dothat in the States is if you've
done an engineering degree andyou also go for the PE license
process, engineering training,that kind of stuff.
I think that kind of shows theskill of a CSI is that this CSI
was able to go out and do a goodenough job for other engineers
to then opine upon what's hernotes and her sketch plans and
(26:25):
her photography at that firescene.
So I think that's really whereour skills come in and then as
you develop them as time goes on.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
But Is that a meticulous, methodical,
logistical, isn't it?
It's those things that you'rejust applying to a different
type of scene, really, aren'tyou?
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Exactly exactly you mentioned Mary Jane there.
Is it a plan to do an MSC oranything?
Because I know there's an MSCin UCLan.
I think they do an MSC in fireinvestigation, but I don't know
if Crumfield intends to developany kind of MSC program in fire
investigation.
I know they do one in.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
The one that I did was forensic investigation of
explosions and explosives.
There is talk of maybedeveloping the MSC.
I had a chat with someone whileI was up at Crumfield a couple
of weeks ago running theintroduction to fire
investigation actually.
So there is talk of that goingon.
I mean Crumfield University,fantastic university not just
saying that because I know howit worked there, but the
networking that I've had thereand the people I've met I don't
know if you'd get that atanother university.
(27:20):
I really don't think I've metso many people from private
sector, public sector,counterterrorism, archaeology,
people from every single nuclearpolice I think I've met.
I've met people from abroad.
I just don't know where elseyou would meet that diverse
level of people and have theopportunities to network.
I mean I've met somebody frompart of security and
(27:42):
anti-terrorism within DenmarkAmazing people.
Crumfield's really got a lot tooffer and that's why I've
decided to sort of move forwardwith them and start thinking
about teaching there, becauseit's a good institute to be
involved with really.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Yeah, definitely.
I think when I run coming thecourses there we had a couple of
guys from the Air AccidentInvestigation Branch who had
just come for the specialistknowledge of the fireside of
things.
There was another guy from arocket company and there was an
explosive engineer as well.
So, yeah, it's a really diversebackground.
There's military, because Ithink Cranfield's got fairly
close calls.
It obviously was based at RoyalMilitary College all the
(28:17):
Defence Academy as they call itnow, so it was based at
Shrivenham on their main site.
So I think they've always hadclose links with military and I
think with military a militaryacross the world, I think that
allows and civil defence, likePort and Down, dstl, those kinds
of organisations.
So some of the projects they'vegot, some of the PhDs they've
got going are really great.
I mean we're sounding a littlebit like an advert for Cranfield
(28:39):
really, but I don't work thereanymore.
I wouldn't push them unless Ibelieve they are a really good
institute.
But of course there are otherorganisations out there.
I mean I know UCLan and theirfire investigation.
A lot of colleagues have beenthrough that and a lot of people
have got great things to sayabout that as well.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
I was just saying.
The only reason I didn't reallystudy with UCLan was because it
wasn't going to work with mewith working.
I picked Cranfield because theydo the modular system as well.
So if you're working all time,you can split it out part time
in a tender week.
So you've got to do 11 modulesand do those when it suits you.
Really, uclan is meant to bevery, very good as well.
I've just met somebody actuallywho's done his masters there
(29:15):
and he said it was outstanding.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Yeah, definitely.
I think we're going tohopefully have Steve a sort of
leader up there on at some point.
I hope he's tempted him on.
I don't think he knows that yet, but I'm definitely going to
ask him.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I saw your sweet talking.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah, hopefully, hopefully, but of course there's
other organisations.
Are you a member of anycertifications?
You know organisations.
Are you a member of NationalAssociation UK AFI?
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Yeah, definitely.
So I've joined UKFI.
Just recently actually, I was amember of the International
Association of Art andInvestigators and I was very
privileged to actually have achat with Dr Peter Manzi.
I just reached out to him andhe was so kind.
He said, yeah, let's set up aZoom meeting, and I had a chat
with him and he gave me somegood advice.
But, yeah, I met Emma Wilson,who works for Meteos.
I think she's one of the corepeople that run UKFI and I've
(30:01):
just joined that actually.
So that's another good one, Ithink.
If you're looking at gettinginto FI and you want to meet
people network, then I can't,unfortunately, make the
conference this year.
I wasn't lucky enough to get aticket, but I think you're
attending, aren't you?
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I joined on the John Lintini course, which is the
three day course after.
I'm still trying to pressurisehim to let me into the
conference because again Imissed it as well because work
delayed the decision and then Imissed out on the place.
But I'm still hoping that I geta cancellation.
But yeah, you mentioned Emmathere.
Emma's the past president,James Aikot is the current
president.
But yeah, I think you know,agree with you, not just in the
(30:33):
UK.
There's lots of chapters as agolf association, of FI
investigation here in Dubai andthere's various different
chapters all around the worldOne in South Africa, I think
there's one in Brazil.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
It's a real international one as well.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Yeah, there's a real international organisation and I
went on a 40 hour introductionto FI investigation course in
San Antonio.
Yeah, that was very nice.
Thank you, lee Masson fromStathick for sending me.
Yeah, that was great.
It was a really interestingcourse.
I think we do things slightlydifferent here in the States.
I mean, they are very much theBible is the NFPA 921 and 10133
(31:07):
and they really do stick to it.
But I think they come under alot more scrutiny in the court
system than we do.
They have to, you know, almostfight to prove that they're
actually legitimate to giveevidence every single time.
But I think that's a good thingand I think NFPA will influence
and come further and further,and it should do, because it
teaches you about the scientificmethod and it's really
certainly one of the textbooksI've got, you know, next to me,
(31:29):
I've got John Lentini's book aswell next to me and I've got
John DeHans Kirk's book as well.
So those are real three sort ofmainstay of my reading list and
my referral and the conditionhandbook as well as another one.
But that's very expensive, butit's incredibly useful.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Most of them seem to be very expensive books.
But yeah, no, I agree, we allseem to tend to work.
I mean, NFPA is the standard,isn't it?
That's the way we should workin in the scientific.
I have to say that's anotherthing.
Going from CSI to fireinvestigation is.
I was teaching some CSI isactually FI this week and it's
learning about the scientificmethod and understanding that
approach, even applying thatapproach to just standard
(32:07):
investigation anyway, not evenfire investigation.
I spoke to somebody who worksin SO 15 and working at that
high level he said he appliesthat scientific approach to CSI
within SO 15.
So it's so core to FI butthere's so many principles about
it which is so applicable toother methods of investigation.
I think we should be startingto apply that more just to
(32:27):
general investigation as well.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think you're absolutelyright there.
The SO 15 counterterrorismsquad of the UK Metropolitan
Police, uk.
Really they cover all kinds ofterrorism.
Was that Chris?
Was that Chris Hester?
Speaker 2 (32:39):
It was Chris Hester, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Yeah, okay, so have to Chris on as well.
He's got a massive amount ofexperience, so he has, he's
exceptional.
Okay, yeah.
So what would you say tosomeone who's currently I don't
know how you were inspired?
I mean, it's clear to me thatyou want to be an investigator
very early on, the same as me.
From about eight or nine yearsold I wanted to be a detective.
And where we are forensicdetectives.
(33:01):
Really, what advice would yougive to someone unconscious that
you're a woman?
I can tell just by looking atyou.
What would you say to someone?
Well, maybe we can discuss aswell about the.
Csi does tend to be dominatedby female operators, I think
mainly because they're better atit, but I think the FI world is
slightly more orientatedtowards the males population,
(33:21):
but there are numerous females.
Have you sort of faced anychallenges in that way?
Do you perceive any challengesin that way?
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I mean, throughout my career.
It's that standard thing oflike going to a job with a bloke
, really, and then alwaysturning around and speaking to
the man before they talk to me.
I think it's just that standardthing, isn't it?
I'd be lying if I said Ihaven't encountered things like
misogyny, that kind of thing,throughout my career.
What I would say is it's justabout being professional, really
, and it's about provingyourself as well.
You shouldn't really have toprove yourself, but it's just
(33:49):
about making sure yourreputation you're as good as
your reputation.
So what I would say is, if youdo encounter those things as a
woman, it's about challengingthem, challenging them
professionally.
Also, about when you're dealingwith people who are younger
than you or who you're mentoring.
It's about making sure thatyou're making that change, that
you're role modeling what isappropriate behavior as well.
(34:12):
I'd be lying if I said I haven'tencountered it.
But yeah, I am going to beworking in a predominantly male
environment.
That's not a problem for me.
I don't mind working with men,but it's just about being as
good as your reputation.
Women are just as good as guysin pretty much everything.
It's not making a thing out ofit, is it?
But it's recognizing it when itdoes happen and challenging it,
definitely Just beingprofessional and challenging it.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Good, okay, and if you, let's take you back now to
15, 20 years ago.
If you could speak to yourselfnow, what advice would you sort
of give yourself to end up whereyou are now?
Is there anything you would doquicker?
Was there anything that youwould perhaps do differently?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
I would definitely say just have confidence in
yourself.
I think when I first startedout just as a CSI, it's a very
intimidating environment as,like a what a 24 year old,
you're surrounded by people withamazing amounts of experience.
What I would say is soak thatup, be a sponge.
So call that experience up, beopen to learning, but also have
(35:10):
confidence in your ability.
It's just that I always call itlike a quiet confidence.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Definitely.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Confident.
Just be quietly confident, beprofessional.
With that confidence as well, Ithink if I could change
anything it's hard to say Iwould probably say I've gone
into education and decided tochange my career, just as I
decided to start a family, soit's been quite challenging.
I've got nearly four year oldand a just coming up one year
old and I've been doing amasters throughout that and
(35:36):
writing a thesis, so that's beenchallenging.
So I probably should havestarted that before I started
thinking about having a family.
It would have made my life alot easier.
But I like a challenge, yeah.
But I would say to anybodystarting off new in the job just
be a sponge.
Soak everything up yourreputation, stick to that, have
your integrity and honesty andjust work hard.
(35:56):
Really, people are going towant to work with you if you
work hard and you're a goodperson to work with.
Bring biscuits always helps.
If you ever turn up to a job,be the person that brings the
biscuits.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Because people love you.
Yeah, and not the cheap oneseither.
Bring some custard creams andsome Bourbons yeah, some
Bourbons.
Yeah, yeah, good, lucy, thankyou ever so much for coming on.
I think we'll call it a daythere and I really appreciate
your time.
As I said, you are the pioneer.
(36:26):
I hope I get better at this astime goes on, but you've been
absolutely fantastic, so I knewyou would be, which is why I
wanted you on very early on inthe podcast series, and thanks
very much for your time.
Thanks very much for youreffort and I really look forward
to seeing how you develop andhopefully you'll come back on at
some point and tell us andmaybe give us.
The idea is to have some themesas we go along, and so I know
(36:47):
that you are doing some research, maybe around some lithium
batteries and bits and pieces,and be fantastic to have you
back on at some point to discussthat.
So thanks so much, lucy.
Is there anything else you'djust like to say before you go,
or are you done?
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Yeah, thanks so much for inviting me.
It's an absolute pleasurereally looking forward to seeing
where this podcast goes.
It's exciting times.
So, yeah, thank you so much,mike.
It's absolute pleasure to speakto you and work with you, as
always.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
All right.
Thanks so much, Lucy.
You take care and hopefully seeyou on the job someday.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
We'll see you roundabout.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Cheers.
Hey, thank you for listening toCSI on Fire.
Please don't forget to like,subscribe and suggest future
topics on our webpage.
Remember factor and nonverver.
Take care, good hunting.
I hope to see you on the nextone, cheers.
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