Explore the captivating world of 3D modeling in fire investigation with our special guest, Eugene Liscio, whose fascinating journey from aerospace engineering to forensics is nothing short of inspiring.
Eugene’s career trajectory is a testament to the power of passion and curiosity. From his early days at McDonnell Douglas, later acquired by Boeing, Eugene's thirst for knowledge propelled him across the globe and ultimately led him to harness his 3D modeling skills in the forensic field. Throughout our conversation, Eugene reveals how his engineering background laid the foundation for his innovative approach to forensic technology, highlighting the profound impact of visual communication in complex scenarios.
Join us as Eugene demystifies the evolution of 3D forensics technology, sharing insights into the transformation from simple animations to robust crime scene reconstructions. We dive into the development of Recon 3D, a groundbreaking iPhone app leveraging LiDAR technology, making high-quality 3D scanning accessible and affordable for investigators. Eugene provides a comparative analysis between traditional laser scanners and mobile applications, showcasing how these innovations empower investigators, especially those operating under tight budgets, to gather crucial spatial data.
As we look to the future, Eugene offers a glimpse into the potential of emerging technologies like virtual reality and 3D printing in legal contexts.
Discover how tools like Vision 3D are set to revolutionize evidence presentation, integrating various media sources into comprehensive 3D models for courtroom use. This episode promises a thought-provoking discussion on the convergence of engineering, technology, and forensics, offering listeners invaluable insights into the cutting-edge advancements shaping the industry today.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, welcome to CSI on Fire, the podcast that takes
you behind the scenes of thefire investigation community.
I'm your host, mike Moulden,and episode after episode, we'll
attempt to excavate the oftendifficult but always fascinating
world of the fire investigator.
Okay, so welcome to CSR on Fire.
(00:26):
I've got a fantastic guesttoday, episode 30.
My guest today is Eugene Lisko.
Eugene, welcome to the podcast,mate.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Hey, thank you very much.
Yeah, 30,.
You're moving fast.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yeah, well, not as many as you.
We'll talk a little bit moreabout how many you've got out
there, but we quickly met inRiyadh, actually in Saudi Arabia
, came to a conference, and thisis a bit of a role reversal for
us, because I've been on yourpodcast or your YouTube channel
as well, so let's talk about howyou've ended up on the podcast
today.
What's your background, eugene,and let's start from there.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Okay, sure, I'll start with my education.
Let's say so.
I was always interested intechnical things as a youngster,
so I liked science.
I enjoyed space things andstuff like that.
So eventually, when I went intouniversity, I decided I was
going to go into aerospaceengineering.
So my background is inengineering and aerospace.
I mean there's a lot ofmechanical engineering concepts
(01:17):
and physics and science andthings like that, a lot of math,
but I enjoyed it.
I won't say I was great at it,it was hard work for me, but I
enjoyed it for sure and say Iwas great at it.
It was hard work for me, but Ienjoyed it for sure and still do
to this day.
Eventually I worked in theindustry so I worked at.
Well, it started as McDonnellDouglas and then it turned into
Boeing because Boeing boughtMcDonnell Douglas.
Great experience I had anamazing, amazing boss, just very
(01:40):
much impressed upon me, just alot of knowledge and scientific
methods and things like that.
And so I worked in theengineering lab there with a lot
of very senior people, peoplewho had been there for 20, 30
years, and these people justknew so much.
And fresh out of university,walking into a place like that,
(02:01):
you felt very small becausepeople were just full of
knowledge and they just knew somuch.
But it was a great experience.
Great boss supported me all thetime.
But what ended up happening wasI had never traveled.
I would say I was poor, we weremodest and we didn't have a lot
of money to fly around here andthere as a youngster.
So I always wanted to traveland just due to a number of
(02:22):
different events at the companythere, I decided that I would
move on.
So I went to work for a companyin the US that made equipment
for aircraft which was like itwould wrap around aircraft and
they would rivet, like the wingskins to the spars and skins to
the fuselage and stuff like thatinterview.
(02:43):
The first thing they asked mewas because I had some
experience.
I was working on a projectalready at the previous job, so
I knew some of their equipment.
Actually, I should say thefirst thing that I asked was is
there travel in this position?
And they said oh yeah, hell yeah.
So I said I'm in like let's dothis.
It ended up almost five yearsliving out of hotels.
So I literally went around theworld and great, great
experience as a young single guy, meeting new people and being
(03:08):
immersed.
And they weren't short trips,they were fairly like two months
in one place, two months inanother, so you had time to sort
of ingest the local culture andlanguage and things like that.
So great, great experience.
Now how this all comes back isthat as an engineer, you design
things in 3D Engineers.
They make parts, they doanalysis, they do a whole bunch
(03:29):
of different things While I wasthere.
Part of it was because you'realways on the road and I'm with
a team of service guys orwhatever, and these guys just
drink.
So I said I need to dosomething with my mind because
I'm going to die out here.
I can't keep up the pace withthese guys.
So I started doing some sort ofartistic 3D modeling and things
(03:51):
like that.
But, being in the field so much, I got a lot of feedback from
customers and in my mind Istarted to formulate the idea
for a new machine and at thiscompany they had been doing the
same thing for like 50 years.
It was the old man owned thecompany, no changes and things
like that.
So I had a meeting with theengineers and I said, hey, guys,
I got this idea.
(04:11):
It was kind of like scribblingon paper and such.
And they said, hey, that'spretty cool.
But when we walked out of themeeting I mean there was no
follow-up or anything like thatI said, you know what?
I'm going to design it in 3D,I'm going to create a little
model.
And then I went the next stepand I animated it.
So I had like moving parts Ihad in a little shop environment
with a background, and bytoday's standards it was
(04:33):
probably ridiculous.
I would laugh at it if I saw ittoday.
But I sent that off as a littleanimation.
And what happened was just fiveminutes after I sent it I was
getting emails back and theywere like how the heck did you
do this?
This is a great idea, it's awonderful concept.
And I was just saying, well,yeah, that's what we were
talking about at the meeting.
But it was clear that whenthere's something that is rather
(04:54):
complicated or a difficultconcept, it may be difficult to
describe in words.
And when you create thisanimation or 3D model in words,
and when you create thisanimation or 3D model, you can
often communicate your ideasmuch better.
That got me thinking aboutdifferent areas where I could
apply 3D and that's where Istarted really looking on the
internet and I looked ataerospace, automotive
(05:16):
engineering, assembly line stuff, and then I fell into this
thing forensics.
So I said what the hell is thisforensics thing?
I'm flipping through and likelooking through the internet and
at that time I would printstuff out.
I mean, we're going back over20 years, so I would print stuff
out and I had this massivebinder of just papers and
articles and stuff.
But it was a fairly wide openarea back then in terms of 3D
(05:38):
modeling and it quickly struckme that what could be more
complicated than a crime scene,a fire scene, a collision scene,
where you're trying to tellpeople where something happened
or how it happened, anddescribing it in words is very
complicated.
And this is especiallyimportant at trials, where you
(05:58):
have a jury of people who maybedo not visualize things in 3D
really well and you're trying toexplain certain things well,
what ends up happening iseveryone has their own
interpretation of your words andwhen you can put that down into
a 3D model or some kind ofreconstruction.
In 3D you're limiting theamount of imagination and you're
(06:18):
narrowing everyone in mentallyto focus in on this idea or
concept that you're presenting.
So that's kind of how it allgot started and that's what got
me deciding to go on my own.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Fantastic and we should say actually you're the
first Canadian we've had on aswell actually, eugene.
So well done for the firstCanadian based in Canada.
You obviously saw from yourengineering background again,
I'm from an engineering as welland I remember slogging my way
through certainly through fluidmechanics and thermodynamics for
me, which is a bit ironicconsidering I'm a fire
investigator now but yeah, Iremember it being a bit of a
(06:51):
slog.
But you obviously you took thatconcept and you started to
create these 3D models and how'sthat sort of developed and how
you brought that on into.
You obviously run your owncompany and you're involved with
the university, so how's thatdeveloped from there?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Let me back up.
So when I first started, what Ithought I was going to be doing
was just creating animation.
So if you're getting started inthis particular area the civil
side, car accidents and thingslike that it has a good entry
point.
It's a good gateway, there'smoney there with insurance
companies.
That's what I thought I wouldbe doing.
I thought, hey, I'm going to doanimations, that's it.
So I started doing that.
It worked out okay.
But you learn in business.
What I thought I was going to bedoing and what I ended up doing
(07:29):
were slightly different.
And so after a while I startedsaying, well, this is what
people actually want and there'sother things that people want
and clients want.
And so I started doing thethings that they wanted.
And then, after doing what theywanted, after a few years I'm
like this is what they need,because they don't sometimes
understand what they need.
So it was what I thought I wasgoing to do to I'll do what
(07:52):
people want or what thecustomers want to.
I think this is what they need.
And this turned out to be awhole process and I call it the
3D forensics sort of discipline.
So it's sort of made up ofthree components, and the first
component is the documentationpart, where you have to go out
to a scene or you have to go toa roadway and document things
like the laser scanner,photogrammetry, whatever those
(08:13):
instruments or technologies are.
And the next part is theanalysis side, like how can I
take this data and then convertit or combine it with something
else to learn something from itthat I couldn't do otherwise.
And then finally, on the 3Dmodeling side, is the
visualization aspect right?
So I document in 3D, I cananalyze in 3D and I can also
(08:36):
deliver the analysis in 3D too.
That became a kind of processfor me.
I'm hoping that sort of answersthe question of how I see
things now and how 3D modelingsort of plays a role in my
current work, and currently Ifocus mostly on crime scenes
that just happen that way.
There was no sort of consciousdecision, but I met a number of
people and they said, hey, couldyou help us on this homicide
(08:58):
case or shooting case?
And I said, sure, I'll give ita go.
And it worked out really,really well.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
So today, I would say probably 90% of what I do is
shooting reconstruction cases,like to use the word pracademic
and I didn't reinvent that,that's.
Dr MJ Harding gave me that one,so heads out to her.
But we're practical peoplebecause we're engineers in
essence.
We come from that background.
How does the modeling work?
You've got this applicationcalled AI23D.
I've used it, it.
It it's fantastic, in my viewanyway.
(09:44):
How does it work?
How is it relevant to us interms of crime investigation,
fire investigation?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Okay, so you mean Recon 3D?
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Yeah, ai2 3D is the company.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
There's a number of technologies that I use in my
work, right?
So there's the laser scanner,there's photogrammetry, there's
these smaller structured lightscanners and things like that,
and I work privately, sonobody's sort of throwing
equipment my way.
You have to buy this stuff, andI remember the first time I
purchased, I came back home andI spoke to my wife and I said,
well, I'm going to buy a laserscanner, and she's oh, okay,
(10:15):
this is how much it costs, andthat's the biggest purchase that
I've made.
It's more expensive than my carat the time and for anyone who
works privately, you know howhard you have to work to pay
that kind of money back.
So today, I mean, these kindsof instruments today are like
70,000, 50,000 US, sometimesmore.
I've always been looking for alow cost tool that could help
(10:37):
investigators or people.
I've been experimenting withall kinds of little sensors and
all kinds of things that are$200, $1,000, whatever, but
nothing really impressed me tothe point where I could actually
use it for work.
To make a long story short, acouple of years ago I was
introduced to a technologythrough a friend of mine,
somebody that I knew, anacquaintance or a colleague, if
you want to call him that, and Iwas impressed with what they
(11:00):
had, and this is the iPhoneLiDAR app.
It was an engine that couldingest the data that was
recorded from the AR kit.
So Apple has their iPhone LiDARsince 2020.
It started on the iPhone 12 Proand the iPad Pros and Apple has
something called the AR kit,and the AR kit is a way of
giving developers access to allthis sensor data that's inside
(11:24):
of the phone, including theLiDAR sensor and things like
that.
That's what got us started andI looked at it and I said, man,
I go a lot of the areas whereother sensors would fail, this
would work.
It worked really well.
In May of 2020, I started.
Recon3d officially kicked it offsort of a minimum viable
product.
Recon 3D officially kicked itoff as sort of a minimum viable
(11:47):
product, and that's what startedit all.
And so, basically, recon 3Dtoday is an iPhone scanning
application that is dedicated toforensics.
Okay, so there are other appsout there.
They just want to makeeverybody happy and if it's kid
making video game stuff or allkinds of different things, but
that's not what I'm focused on.
I didn't think I could makeeverybody happy, so I said you
know what I've been working inthis space for 20 years now.
(12:10):
So I'm going to focus onforensics and just make sure
that I can give investigatorsand frontline people a tool that
is effectively in their backpocket, that they can pull out
anytime and document.
So that's what it's about.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Yeah, fantastic and I mean, I've used this at Fire
Scenes, I've used it at CrimeScene.
We did some research here andthe research involved a
comparison of the Leica versusthe iPhone and your app and talk
about.
For those who are as ignorantas I was before I met you, what
is LiDAR?
How does it work?
What's a point cloud?
Go through some of the basicsfor us.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah, sure, no problem.
So the concept of LIDAR isactually quite old, I think.
If I remember correctly, it wasabout the time after Einstein
developed his theory ofrelativity and light and stuff.
And there was an earlyresearcher, a scientist, who
said I think we can do somethingwith light, and I think what we
can do is we can emit some kindof a signal and then wait for
it to bounce back and once itcomes back to us, we can capture
(13:12):
part of this signal and wemight be able to tell something
about the object that we'rehitting or whatever.
Lidar really started taking offwith the advent of the laser.
So the laser was developed inaround the 1960s and the basic
premise there was well, the termlaser was first coined like in
the late 1950s or close to 1960,and so it stands for light
(13:36):
amplification by stimulatedemission of radiation.
So that's what a laser means,and the laser gave people a way
of sending out a beam far away.
But what's unique about thelaser?
Well, two features.
One is it has something calledcoherence.
Okay, so coherence is when youtake the laser pointer and you
point it across the conferenceroom, you still get a little dot
(13:59):
.
It's not like a light bulb thatjust sort of illuminates
everywhere.
Okay, so it's this ability tostay focused over a long
distance.
And the second thing that'shelpful with a laser is that
they can be what's calledmonochromatic, mono-me-one
chromatic meaning color.
You can choose the wavelengththat you want to fire off so it
(14:20):
can be visible, like in a laserpointer red or green or you can
bump up the wavelength and makeit infrared, and there's some
benefits by choosing thewavelength that you want to work
in, depending on the medium.
So LiDAR uses lasers, and theconcept behind LIDAR is I'm
going to take this little laserand I need to send out a signal,
(14:42):
I need to do something, andthere's two ways to do this and
I'll keep it simple.
I'll use the time of flightexample because that's the
easier one to understand.
Okay, if you think about how Ican send you a message with
light, as a kid I rememberseeing this ad on the television
and it was for the Navy.
There was these two ships andthere's one ship and he has this
big light and he's got theselittle shutters on the front.
They're basically using a kindof Morse code.
(15:03):
So there's these pulses thatthey send back and forth, so you
can do the same thing with alaser, and if I send out a very
discreet pulse, just like aflashlight, I turn it off and on
really quickly.
Well, you can start a timerwhen you release that pulse, and
what you do is you wait for thesignal to hit an object and
then bounce back to the receiver, and when it comes back to the
(15:24):
receiver you stop the timer.
Okay, and that is called time offlight.
So, basically, we know thespeed of light, it's constant.
You've got one piece of theequation and you're trying to
figure out the distance andyou've just timed the round trip
.
It's basically just a velocityequation.
Velocity equals distance overtime.
You have twice the time, though, so you have to divide the time
(15:46):
by half, basically, and that'stime of flight.
That's the basics of how itworks.
Now, on a phone it's a littlebit different.
So the type of LiDAR that is onthe iPhone is not the same as
you would find on these largerterrestrial scanners, but there
is a pattern, a series of dots,a grid of dots that comes out of
the sensor on the iPhone, butthe device is in fact
(16:09):
calculating the distance to eachof these points, and by doing
that, and as you move your phonearound, you're basically
painting the wall or the surfaceof the object with all these
dots and basically you'regetting all this information
back.
Hey, I know how far theseobjects are relative to the
sensor.
That's kind of what's happening.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Gotcha Gotcha.
So it's a bit like paintingwith light.
When you're doing photography,then, in the sense of you're
exposing the areas that you'relooking at, similar to, but it's
with a grid of lasers, asopposed to your torch, that
you're illuminating with.
In terms of fire investigationthen and that's why you don't
need it to be lit you can haveit done what you would call an
(16:53):
active component, meaning thatit's sending out its own light.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
So when you do photography, I mean the camera
on its own depends on theenvironment, so you have to help
it somehow.
But a LiDAR instrument willsend out its own light, so it
doesn't depend on what's in theenvironment.
I mean it will have an effecton the overall result, but
ultimately it's looking for thereturn signal of the laser, so
it has its own light source,sure, sure?
Speaker 1 (17:17):
which is really useful yes absolutely yeah, in
terms of kind of for thepractitioner, because I'm very
much conscious, I like to beable to use things in practice.
There's got to be relevant tome as a fire investigator.
How does it work?
So I got my phone, just take itthrough getting the software.
How does it work?
How long does it work?
So I got my phone, just take usthrough getting the software.
How does it work?
How long does it take?
What's the accuracy?
(17:38):
Just take us through those sortof elements if you want.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, sure, no problem.
So the Recon 3D app is justsomething you can download from
the app store.
So the basic app.
You do need a device that isLiDAR capable, okay.
So anything from the iPhone 12Pro onwards.
So two days ago I got the new16 Pro Max and I'm doing it for
testing.
Okay, but any of those devices,no problem.
And once you download it, youbasically have to create an
(18:03):
account.
And once you create an account,if you purchase one of the
plans, it basically getsactivated.
Now, in terms of use, I just dida class on this two days ago,
so I mean, you can talk forhours on it.
But the basic premise is likewe were just talking about this
painting of a surface, right, ifyou're doing a small interior
(18:25):
room or something let's say, avehicle caught on fire or
something like that you want totake the device and you want to
be able to almost like recordinga video, just walk all the way
around the vehicle.
You want to make sure you haveall the areas covered and you
want to point the device so it'smore or less perpendicular to
most of the surfaces.
That's really what you'retrying to do and by doing this
kind of approach and painting.
What happens is you'rerecording all these things at
(18:48):
the same time.
So you're recording video, youhave the LiDAR sensor, you've
got GPS, you've gotaccelerometers and gyros all
this stuff that's in your phoneIn fact, just about everything
that can fire on your phone whenyou're using this will fire.
So people have noticed thattheir phones get warm after a
while.
But what we do is we take thevideo and we extract frames from
(19:08):
the video and on the LiDAR side, each of those frames is
accompanied by this depth.
So we know that there's certainpoints in there that we can
know how far it is on that gridof dots we were talking about.
So that gets turned into what'scalled a depth map.
Okay, so a depth map is reallyjust like a two-dimensional
picture, but each point, insteadof being an RGB color a red,
(19:32):
green and blue color itrepresents depth.
So, for example, an objectthat's farther away maybe like
five meters away, or somethingis blue, and then something
that's really really close wouldbe red, and the LiDAR sensor
has a range of about five meters, not much more.
Yeah, you're not going to bescanning something that is 100
meters away.
It's meant for close range.
But what you do is when youhave a photograph now and you
(19:55):
have an associated depth mapwith these distances.
Basically, you're running aphotogrammetric process.
Okay, so it's actuallyphotogrammetry assisted by LiDAR
.
That's the one thing that is alittle bit unique about Recon 3D
.
Okay, if you use the raw LiDAR,it's actually a little bit
noisy, and so some of the appsout there that just use LiDAR,
you're going to get trash.
You're going to get rubbish,because part of the process in
(20:40):
photogrammetry is it needs tolook for features.
It's counting on the pixeldifferences and contrast and
that sort of thing.
If you don't have that well,you end up with either gaps in
the data or just a lot of noise.
And this was one of the thingsthat impressed me when I first
started looking at thetechnology was the LiDAR says
well, look, the photogrammetrypart can't figure out how far
(21:00):
the wall is, or the car is, orthis burnt, damaged object is,
but the LiDAR sensor can.
So I can help photogrammetryand by fusing those two
technologies, or those twothings together, you end up with
much, much better data.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Sure, Okay, Fantastic .
And it's not just for I've seensome of the stuff that you've
done and I've done fire scenesand bits and pieces.
It's not just for the firescene, it's also say you've got
a heater, for example, an item,a very small item.
You can go all the way aroundthat and you can scan it and you
do a bit of 3D printing as well, so you can actually print out
those bits directly from thatscan.
(21:34):
So it's really accurate.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, you can so, and , like any instrument, it sort
of has a window or a range ofuses, and then when you sort of
get on the edge of one, thenit's not so good on the edge of
the other, right.
So if you think about the phone, it's not meant to do three
miles of roadway or scanningsomething like that, right?
It's meant for smaller scenestypically, and I mean, if you're
going to scan a roadway, adrone and photogrammetry would
(21:58):
be a great way.
So if you have a burnt buildingor something like that, you can
fly it with a drone.
In no time at all.
You can get it up in the air.
It's a great way of documenting, very efficient way too.
On the small side, though, ifyou start getting into smaller
objects that are on the order ofa centimeter, a few centimeters
, whatever, the LiDAR sensorisn't the best way to go.
Again, photogrammetry would bebetter for that, because you can
(22:19):
get a really, really small scan, fine detail, and so it would
be better.
So it has this range ofsomething on the order of a few,
two, three, four feet,something like that, up to 10,
20 meters or in that range couldbe maybe a little bit more, and
that's where it fits.
That's the best you can dothere.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Okay and just for the audience, really is that?
What is the difference inbetween kind of scanning and
photogrammetry?
What is photogrammetry?
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yeah, so photogrammetry is a way of if we
look at it today, it's a way ofcombining photographs, a lot of
overlapping photographs of anobject, and basically what it's
doing is it's going in and it'strying to figure out where all
the cameras were when they tookthe photos, and once you can do
that, you can sort of virtuallylook through all the cameras,
(23:06):
but you can pick a point, and ifyou find the same point in all
the different camera positions,you can kind of triangulate in
on that point and create aunique sort of XYZ coordinate in
space.
I mean a lot of people today,because it's so automated and
much simpler today than it was avery long time ago.
Just people know it as it'ssoftware, that you take a lot of
photos, you upload them to thecloud or something or your
(23:28):
software, and it spits out a 3Dmodel in the end, right.
The benefit there, though, isthat it's obviously very
photorealistic.
Some of these models that arecoming out today just look
absolutely incredible, andthey're also quite accurate, and
one of the strengths ofphotogrammetry is that it has no
real scale.
I could like we were talkingabout a drone.
A drone could be 400 meters inthe air taking photos of a
(23:50):
building or roadway or whatever,or we've done as small as doing
the rich details on the fingerfor like fingerprints or
post-mortem fingerprints, you'rereally limited by the lens.
Okay, but really taking photos,process it in software and then
you end up with a 3D model.
That's the photogrammetry side.
On the laser scanning side orscanning side, there are
(24:11):
different technologies okay, buttypically when people talk
about scanning they often meanlaser scanning.
That will use one of themethods like I talked about
before, like it's got some kindof light source or laser.
It emits that laser and then itcomes back to the unit and it
can figure out what it is.
So the terrestrial laserscanners.
It's basically like a spinninglaser and it rotates vertically
(24:33):
and horizontally, sort of tocapture the 360 environment and
it also captures photographs.
So it goes and takes theselittle snapshots and it takes
maybe it could be 70 or 80.
It just depends on the type ofcamera that's in there.
But it basically fuses allthose photos together to make
like a panoramic image, like afull 360 image, and then it just
applies the color from thepanoramic image like a full 360
(24:54):
image and then it just appliesthe color from the panoramic
image onto the point cloud data.
The 3D data that it picks up andthe data that a laser scanner
provides is called a point cloud, and a point cloud is really
just the position of the 3Dpoints that it measured.
And of course, you can havemillions and millions and
millions of points in a pointcloud.
(25:15):
And the point cloud can becolored.
It doesn't have to be colored,but they're usually quite large
in size, and part of the reasonis some of these scanners can
pick up close to a millionpoints a second.
That's a lot of data.
But each point, if you thinkabout it, if you just pick one
point out of a point cloud, it'sgot an X, y and Z coordinate
(25:37):
and then if you append color,then you've got an RGB channel.
So you got the red, green andblue channel and you also have
the intensity, because itmeasures how much of the signal
has come back to the scanner too.
If I've got 10 million points,I've got seven pieces of
information for every singlepoint.
So this data set starts to growokay and they start to get
(26:01):
pretty big.
But the benefit of the pointcloud is that it's somewhat
realistic.
So for those that might haveused the total station before,
or like a GNSS system whereyou're only taking, like a point
here or point there or pointthere.
They're not colored, they maybe spread out and it's not very
clear sometimes where they takethose points.
So even if I did it by hand orsomething and I don't take a
(26:23):
picture and I just say, well,that's a point on a pole, you're
like, okay, it's on the pole,where exactly on the pole?
Is it three feet off the ground?
Is it one meter off the ground?
Which part of the diameter ofthe pole is it?
So the ability for people tosort of look at the point cloud
and interpret it with some ofthe context like oh, there's a
vehicle, there's a burntbuilding, there's some fluid
here, there's something else, Ithink is very, very useful.
(26:45):
So that's kind of my summary ofthe two different between
photogrammetry and laser.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, fantastic, that made total sense to me, so
that's great.
If it makes sense to me, it'sprobably going to make more
sense to most people.
Yeah, fantastic, and just takeme through, because obviously
we've sort of looking at some ofthese bigger scanners £50,000,
sterling $70,000.
One of the things I want tosort of emphasise really is that
this piece of software, thisapp that you've got, is really
(27:09):
cost effective and it can beuseful to everyone that takes
their phone around with them.
I've got it on my phone rightnow.
So, if I'm at a fire scene,take us through some of the
advantages, some of the costs.
I know that you run trainingonline.
For example, I've done one ofyour courses, which is fantastic
.
So take us through some of thecosts in comparison to if you're
not a big department, you'renot a London Fire Brigade,
you're not Los Angeles CountySheriff's Department, you
(27:34):
haven't got a $50,000, $70,000Leica.
And what's the advantages of it?
What does yours do that?
That doesn't.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Okay, well, let me preface this with saying, first
off, that when we're comparing a$70,000 or whatever expensive
laser scanner, terrestrial laserscanner, to the phone, there is
a difference there and they arenot equivalent.
Okay, so we are comparing twodifferent things.
So the capabilities of theterrestrial laser scanner versus
the phone are totally different, but they each have their place
.
You have to remember that whenApple put the LiDAR sensor
(28:01):
inside of their devices, theyweren't thinking of you or me.
They were thinking of littlekids putting unicorns on the
coffee tables and all thisaugmented reality stuff.
Having said that, laserscanners, terrestrial laser
scanners nowadays, interestingly, there are more options, so the
range of options you get fromcost are greater, but the
typical price hasn't reallychanged much.
(28:22):
Okay, in fact, for some of thedevices they've actually gone up
in price.
So if you're buying one of thepopular devices out there,
you're talking about 70, 80, ahundred thousand us US, so
they're not really cheap.
There are some options you canget on the lower side 30,000 or
whatever.
And more recently there was oneI think it's about 40,000 bucks
US from another company, and Idon't want to get into specific
(28:45):
companies or whatever.
But what people don't realizetoo is that's just the equipment
.
Then you have to train a teamof people.
If your department has four orfive people that need to be
trained, they all have to gothrough the training and what
happens within a lot of thesedepartments.
You start to get people thatmove on.
So a team of four becomes ateam of three or a team of two.
(29:06):
It may still be a team of five,but the people who knew how to
operate the device now havemoved on.
So there's retraining andthings like that.
There's also this issue ofcalibration, the devices.
Well, the manufacturersrecommend that you send them
back for calibration each year.
That's not an inexpensiveendeavor.
So you're losing the instrumentfor up to a few weeks, several
(29:27):
weeks, and it's going to costyou several thousand dollars in
order to do that for sure.
And then there's the softwareside.
The software has maintenance.
So you buy the initial softwareand then, every year, if you
want to maintain the software,there's a cost there too.
So, of course, if somethinggets damaged this is aside from
all of that right.
The costs are significant formany agencies, and even larger
agencies now are really startingto say, geez, this is a lot of
(29:48):
money Like.
Some people are questioningwhether or not they really have
to send the instrument back forcalibration.
Just because it's 365 days,does it mean it's not working
anymore?
Yeah, there's all these things.
And, of course, on the phoneside.
Look, I haven't had to do anyselling or trying to convince
people about the value of thephone.
Everyone gets it.
It's a phone, it's in yourpocket, it's your own device.
(30:09):
There are some people, whomaybe are Android users, who buy
a phone just for scanning, ormaybe they buy an iPad just to
do that, but the app itself forthe full yearly license is $500
a year.
So between the phone, you canbuy a phone for well, let's say,
if you get a decent version onthe Pro Max, it's I don't know,
maybe 1500, 1600 US or somethinglike that, depending on how
(30:31):
much memory and everything else.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
But most people have already either get issued.
I mean, every time I go to anew employer I tend to get
issued with a new phone anyway,and it tends to be the latest
model because it's new.
It doesn't sing, so you kind ofalready got that covered anyway
through normal business issues.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yes, Although one of the challenges that I have is,
for example, in policedepartments and things like that
, and I'm not sure what it'slike in fire departments.
But they will give you a phonebut they don't get you the pro
version of the phone, andsometimes they're with Android
or a Samsung phone versus theApple.
But if they go with the Apple,not everyone goes with the pro.
So if you were to look at thedifference in cost of going from
(31:07):
the Apple a regular Apple phoneto the pro version of the phone
now you're only talking inthose terms yeah, and then $500
a year.
That gives you the onlinecapability so you can send your
data.
Once you record the data, theapp asks you well, what do you
(31:27):
want to do?
Do you want to process it on thecloud or do you want to process
it on the device itself?
And just to separate these twothe cloud it goes up to our
servers, it gets processed andthen you get a notification back
saying, hey, the data is readyfor you to download or whatever,
and that comes through as anotification on your phone and
also an email so you candirectly download it.
Now there's going to be a lotof agencies that do not want to
(31:49):
use anything online and that'swhy there is the on-device
processing, which is 100%offline, so no data gets
communicated, like none of yourpersonal data or recorded data
gets communicated.
If something happens, I can'teven help you.
I have no insight into yourdevice.
You can process it on yourdevice, but there are some
limitations because on theserver we can configure that
(32:13):
with whatever RAM and graphicscards and all kinds of things
you can do on the device.
You're limited to the hardwareand for all of the power that is
in the iPhone and in the Appledevices, which is pretty good.
it's still not going to compareto a high-end server or a gaming
PC or something like that.
It's still limited.
But I offer these two separatecapabilities to accommodate for
(32:35):
people, some of the federalagencies which are just like the
Met, police and FBI and thingsthey're not going to use
cloud-based servers.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Yeah, I fully understand that.
That's okay, and you also dobits of training as well online.
I think you've got differentstages.
I've done your initial courseand you've got different courses
for different horses.
Different courses for differenthorses, as you say.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah, I'll talk about the Recon 3D class first, then
I can talk about some of theother courses.
But because this was going to beused in forensics, I debated at
first whether or not I wasgoing to offer a course for a
phone app, because some peoplemight say oh geez, what the heck
do I need a class for a phoneapp?
I can do this.
However, as you know, if thisis going to be going to trial, I
(33:15):
want people to take the appseriously, and that means that
you may be asked the question doyou know what you're doing with
this app?
Have you been trained on it?
How do you know this thingworks?
I want to make sure that peoplehave the background about the
app and how it's working and howthe technology gets fused
together photogrammetry andlaser scanning and also I want
(33:36):
them to do a validation exerciseas part of the class.
So, in order to get yourcertificate, you have to finish
an assignment, and thatassignment is doing your own
validation.
So if it comes to pass thatsomebody says well, how do you
know this works?
Well, because I checked it.
Okay, so I checked it and Iknow and I think that leads into
, like some of the research thatwe're doing as well, where
we're trying to just make thisall public and to be very clear.
(33:58):
I'm not one of those peoplethat is going to go out there
and say, oh, you know, the appis accurate to some crazy
accuracy.
Whatever I tell people, this iswhat we found and this is what
it is.
And I think in forensics, it'snot about saying how good it is.
It's about understanding whatthe errors are like.
What are the errors, where doesit not work and everything else
.
And so that's what I try tocommunicate to people on the
(34:19):
training courses.
With respect to the otherclasses, I do a lot of online
training because it's veryconvenient.
So the pandemic kind of pushedeverybody to online.
It's interesting just beforethe pandemic, I was already
planning to do online coursesand when it hit, I was ready.
So in June of 2020, so in Juneof 2020, you could have had a
(34:44):
course on basket weaving.
You could have had a course onanything and everybody was
signing up.
I remember I had a shootingreconstruction course or class
that I did online and I had overa hundred people sign up for
this thing.
So I was overwhelmed.
I was thinking I'm going to geta dozen people maybe, and it's
just, the things kept coming in.
I'm saying, like, what'shappening here.
I do enjoy in-person classes andtraining.
(35:04):
There is a time and place foronline.
So a lot of what I do issoftware related to 3D.
So I have a photogrammetrycourse that I do and I want
people to get introduced to theconcepts and how photogrammetry
works and hands-on we get intosoftware creating your own 3D
models.
I have classes aroundbloodstream pattern analysis.
So, again, it's software.
So, hey, let's get in there,let's work with the software.
(35:26):
I do in-person training forpolice.
So with a police agency I'm aFARO certified trainer.
So if somebody buys a FAROscanner, I'll go out, I'll visit
the agency.
So I've got some trainingcoming up where I go and I'll
teach them how to use thescanner and everything else.
And there are other things.
So next month I'm doing ashooting reconstruction class in
person in California and I'mtrying to do webinars and things
(35:46):
like that too.
So there is a cloud compare is avery popular one.
So cloud compare is an opensource program that allows you
to work with 3d data.
So one of the problems I haveis if somebody is using the app.
I remember one class.
I did a little poll and about60% of the people in the class
were brand new to this wholearea.
They had no background in 3D atall, like they've never touched
(36:07):
the laser scanner, never didphotogrammetry.
If they're going to be usingthe Recon 3D app and then
producing a model, they spin itaround on the phone and say, hey
look, how cool this is andthat's all they do and that's
not what I want.
So I want it to be valuable tothem.
So it's no coincidence thatusually after I do the Recon 3D
(36:28):
class probably four or five, sixweeks, right after that, I
usually have a Cloud Compareclass and that gives people some
time to work with the app andthen to be able to do something
with Cloud Compare.
And it's an amazing programbecause it's free.
It's 100% free and it has somany features that some of which
you don't get in paid softwareReally really great software and
I enjoy training.
I love it.
I like bringing people togetherand, for example, we had a user
(36:49):
group meeting for Recon 3D andI thought again like, okay, I'll
have a user group meeting forthe app and it was awesome.
We've done it twice before andI had a great time and people
are coming in, they're showinghow they're using the app and
how they're using it at work andkinds of things they've been
doing with it, and I'm amazed.
I love the energy and I likethe passion that people have
about the app.
So, as a developer like and I'mnot a developer, I'm not a
(37:11):
programmer, right Like, Iremember that so I have people
that are programming but I'msort of steering the ship, so to
speak, and you can't pay adeveloper a higher compliment
than actually using the app forserious work.
That's a really good feelingwhen you see people are really
using it for work.
So I'll continue to do somemore training and we have a
whole bunch of things that arecoming up.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yeah, sure, we should mention here, probably about
the forensic symposium theforensic photography symposium,
because you were kind enough toinvite me to get involved in
that last well, this yearactually, and there's another
one coming up and I found thatwas absolutely fascinating in
terms of drones, photogrammetry,3D scannings, everyone from all
over the world.
So just tell us a little bitabout that.
When's the next one?
(37:53):
What's it about?
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Yeah, so well, a little bit of background.
So because I was teachingphotogrammetry, I noticed that
when people were handing in theassignments, there was some
disparity between the abilitiesof people to actually take good
photographs.
Some people were amazing andlike really, really great
photography skills, and thensome people were like yeah, they
were good.
Yeah, I said there must be aplace where people go to get
(38:17):
trained for photography andthere are classes and certain
things out there.
But it was fairly limited andit was limited to maybe certain
people that go out train apolice agency or a fire
department or something likethat.
But yeah, I said, you know what, let me just bring people
together.
I mean, what is the most useddevice at just about any
forensic scene, whether it'sfire or crash scene or whatever?
(38:38):
It's a digital camera.
I thought, well, there has tobe something, but anyway.
So I said let me just try it.
It worked out great.
We did the first one a fewyears ago.
This will be the fourth onethat's coming up and basically
the idea is bringing peopletogether from all over the world
, anywhere.
It's online.
It's usually four days or soand we cover a whole bunch of
topics and photogrammetry andsome of those things get
(39:00):
included in there, although I'mreally trying hard to keep it
centered around photography andsome of the new technologies and
such.
So there's another one comingup.
It's January 20th this year.
I believe that week we're goingto try something a little
different based on the feedbackthat the people have provided.
So in the mornings.
We're going to try a series ofshort courses.
(39:20):
So the Monday, tuesday,wednesday and Thursday the
morning session will be able tofour hour class on some specific
topics.
So we're sort of finalizingthat right now.
But it could be macrophotography, it could be on
software, it could be on workingwith different things.
So people who complete thosewould get a certificate for each
(39:40):
of those little short courses.
And I think it's a great way tolearn from some of the really,
really talented people that areout there doing some fantastic
work.
So the symposium is a lot of fun.
It's recorded too, because wedeal with people from all you
know.
You're in Riyadh, there'speople in England, there's
people in Australia, new Zealand.
So some people are verydedicated and they're up at two
in the morning or three in themorning to watch these things.
(40:02):
I don't know if I would be thatwilling to get up at that time,
but hey, kudos to them.
People can catch up with therecordings at any time and
they're available for about amonth or so or a few weeks after
.
And yeah, we get vendors, weget people talking about their
new hardware, new things.
Mirrorless cameras were started, nikon, canon, fuji, software,
(40:22):
people like a whole bunch ofdifferent topics surrounding
photography.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Yeah, I mean, I don't recommend things unless I
actually believe in things, andI found it.
I was a speaker, but I foundthe rest of the course
absolutely brilliant and I foundit really useful in terms of
there is some research guys,some really really clever
technical guys as well.
I remember the post-mortem guy.
I remember there was somereally really clever technical
guys as well.
I remember the post-mortem guy.
I remember there were some realpracticalities of things like
just down to say I can see, Imean the the listeners can't see
(40:47):
what I see, but I can see yourpoll in your back, your
extension poll, and there waspracticalities about which is
the best part.
I've used this poll and otherpeople say, well, try this one,
I found this one really useful.
I found it really useful eventhough it was online.
It incredibly useful from apracticality.
Actually, people who do the jobday in, day out saying, well,
this is what I found, this isthe best one I found, and people
(41:08):
took that away and I'vecertainly purchased some of the
things that was discussed andmade my life gimbal, for example
, that kind of stuff and some ofthe best ones.
And also, you should mention,you give away prizes, some great
prizes as well, just randomlybased on feedback, and that's
good as well.
So, yeah, thoroughly recommendthe Forensic Photography
Symposium and, yeah, really,really good, fantastic.
(41:30):
Well, as I knew, eugene, we weregetting towards the end of our
time, unfortunately, but yousaid about your travel and stuff
, and I know that you had alittle European, what you called
the European tour, and you'vejust been to Japan.
What do you see next in termsof?
I mean, I see apps like yoursas complementary.
They're not going to replacethe photography section of it,
they're not going to replaceyour scene notes, you're not
going to replace your sketches,but it's just another tool, and
(41:52):
I think I saw just on LinkedIntoday the new goggles have come
out and the new glasses andthings like that.
How do you see the future of,like, not just 3D scanning, but
also the presentation ofevidence, the presentation of
scenes?
How do you see that going?
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Okay, so you really set me up, and I don't know if
you planned this or knew this.
I don't think I told you thisyet, but there's something new
that I'm going to be releasingin about a month from now.
And I actually didn't know thatOkay, so I didn't announce it
publicly, but it is related tothe presentation of evidence.
I'll get to that, but let metry to answer your question
first.
So yeah, because the data thatwe capture is in 3D and
everything's 3D, with the app orit doesn't matter any 3D
technology, the way that itpresents.
(42:31):
There are different ways youcan present it.
So some people will take 3Ddata and they'll turn it just
into a two-dimensional drawing.
Some people will take it and alot of the laser scanners now,
for example, will have thesevirtual tours that you can just
export from the software.
It's a byproduct of having thepanoramic image and all the scan
data.
So that's a virtual tour islike another way.
You can also have 3D printing.
(42:51):
We talked about 3D printing andit's totally doable with 3D
data.
What I love about it is you canmake things that are very small
, large, or you can make thingsthat are very large, small and
you can hand it to somebody in acourtroom.
So that's another way ofhanding out 3D data.
Another way is virtual reality.
So you mentioned the gogglesand things like that.
So there are companies thatwork in fire investigation and
(43:13):
in crime scene investigation infact River in the UK.
So reality and virtual reality,alex Harvey and his group are
doing some great work.
There are people, researchersaround the world that have, for
example, these caves where youwalk in and there are projectors
on the ceiling on the side andthings where you can get
multiple people inside of ascene.
(43:33):
And another way is somethingthat I did on a case geez 2010.
But if you imagine a gamingengine where you put your whole
scene in there and yourreconstructions and things like
that, but you can give it tosomebody so when they receive it
, they can just launch it ontheir computer and they can
rotate around and it does acouple of things.
One is they can appreciate thedata that you collected in the
form that it exists, which is 3D, so they can rotate it around
(43:55):
and inspect it that way.
The second thing is that itgives you a means of entering
this as evidence at trial,because otherwise it may be an
animation which is moving, butit's also static.
You can't move out of thepositions that the author chose
to fly around and, for the mostpart, a lot of people just take
screenshots and put it in theirreports.
(44:15):
I think, with virtual realityand all that other stuff.
It's great we can take the 3Ddata, but there's some
challenges right.
So the full on six degrees offreedom virtual reality where
you've got goggles on, you canwalk around.
It just doesn't make any senseto have that in a courtroom,
because having 20 people walkaround or something, I mean it's
not going to work.
It doesn't work.
Just yet, you can take one stepback and there's three degrees
(44:37):
of freedom.
So basically, you're in abubble view.
I could take you on a virtualtour and you could be.
12 jurors could be sitting in aseat, all with goggles on, but
they can't walk, there's nomovement, but they can look
around.
So they're inside of this 360image or spherical image and
they can look up, they can lookdown and you could take people
on a virtual tour that way.
These are some of the things.
(44:58):
I think that's probably thenext evolution before we jump
into full.
Full VR.
Six Degrees of Freedom.
Vr is probably this littleThree Degrees of Freedom virtual
tour.
We just have goggles and lookaround.
Now I'll get to what I wastalking to, which is new.
So in about a month from now,I'm hoping, if everything goes
well, I'm going to be releasingsomething called Vision 3D.
(45:20):
So we have Recon 3D, which isthe app, and then I'll be
releasing Vision 3D.
Vision 3D is sort of a sisterproduct to Recon 3D and what it
will let you do is take the scanand import it into the software
.
And once you do that, if youhave accompanying photos, videos
, maybe 360 imagery, if you havea report that you've done, if
(45:42):
there's audio, if there's CCTVfootage, things like this, what
you'll be able to do is take orcreate little tags on the point
cloud.
So let's say, there's a fireoriginated around a certain spot
and you want to tag that.
You can click on it and you canput a little text like it's a
halo, this is the origin andlocation.
Maybe you want to add a littlemeasurement that goes from there
to someplace else.
You've got high resolutionphotos that you want to
(46:03):
incorporate.
You can tag those and put thosein there.
You took a little video, youdid all this stuff and basically
, once you package it alltogether, you can just export it
as a zip file and you can sendit to somebody.
You can mail them a USB with iton offline or you can send it
through the internet.
Whatever you prefer, but it isa completely offline tool and
(46:27):
when they open it, they get avery simple viewer where they
can interact with your model andall of the media.
So if you think about thevirtual tours, like the real
estate tours, where you have apanoramic image and you fly
through, the panoramic image isthe basis of the virtual tour.
So what I'm talking about isnot a virtual tour, it's a
virtual model.
So it's a model that has allthe other media around it.
So the basis of this virtualmodel is the point cloud data or
(46:49):
the 3D data.
I think it's going to allowpeople to appreciate the data in
the format that you had it, andalso it will give people an
opportunity to use it at trial,because you can submit it on a
USB key as evidence.
I think those two things aregoing to be really, really
important.
And it's not limited to Recon3D.
You can bring in terrestriallaser scanner data, you can
(47:11):
bring in photogrammetry data,you can bring in multiple 3D
models and then align them howyou want or whatever.
So it's a starting point.
I'm really excited about it.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
I'm nervous about it too.
It sounds fantastic.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Currently in beta, but hopefully I'll be doing a
webinar on it in the future.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
Okay, fantastic, I mean brilliant.
I mean that wasn't set up atall, so that was nice that kind
of shows that we're current andrelevant.
Excellent, fantastic.
I think we're going to have tovery quickly call it a day, to
be honest, eugene.
But I just wanted to say aboutyour other kind of enterprise,
which is, of course, forensicTalks.
So just tell us a little bitabout Forensic Talks.
That's how I actually came toknow you, before I actually
physically met you face to face.
But yeah, just talk to us.
You've had John Lentini on, andthen you had another guy called
(47:53):
Mike Moulden, who don't quitecompare.
But just tell us about ForensicTalks.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Ah, you're humble, but yeah, no, you did a
wonderful job and you did agreat job at the Forensic
Photography Symposium.
You had some great feedback onyour presentation too.
But Forensics Talks was apandemic sort of idea and
originally I said I'm going todo it about my work.
I said I'll talk about 3D andI'll talk about what I'm doing
or whatever.
And then 30 seconds later Isaid that is going to get so
boring so fast, so I'm not goingto do that.
I'm not going to do that.
So I think what I'll do is whydon't I just open it up?
I said there's so manyfascinating people in the
forensics area and I said I canbring in everybody.
(48:28):
Just make it about fire, aboutcollision investigation, about
anthropology, about all theseareas that are way, way out of
my wheelhouse that I have noknowledge of.
I started that maybe three yearsago and I just enjoy doing it.
I mean, I do it when I can.
It's not like I try to do themon Thursdays at 2 pm, but hey,
I'm busy and everybody else isbusy, so it's not a every
(48:48):
Thursday thing, but I just didthe 105th episode yesterday and
a little break over the summer,but I'm back rolling again.
I learned so much and I've metso many people and you did a
great talk, john Lentini did agreat talk on fire investigation
and if you just do a search forforensics talks and John
Lentini or whatever, you'll pickit up the same thing with you.
(49:09):
Just put your name in there,they'll figure it out.
I'm just going to keep doing itand the only incentive is that
I think it's fun and I thinkit's informative and that's it.
That's the only reason I do it.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Yeah, I think you know again, not blowing smoke up
your ass, eugene but it'sreally interesting stuff.
You have all different types ofspeakers.
I found the Geoscope guy, theIrish guy, I found that that was
just like blew my mind thetechnology and how much
knowledge he has, and you havegot some really big hitters on
there across it.
So I thoroughly recommendForensic Talks.
It's as you say, it's a visualthing as well.
So it's not audio, it's visualas well as audio.
I think you've got it in thetwo formats.
But, yeah, thoroughly recommendit.
(49:46):
And that's how I, as I said, Iknew you several years before I
actually ever met you in thatformat because you're obviously
the host.
But, yes, absolutely brilliant.
So, eugene, again sorry, maybewe'll get you on another time,
but we're sort of running out oftime, but it's been absolutely
fascinating.
I think just listening to youjust shows your depth of
knowledge, just shows your stuffand you've got a product but
(50:07):
you don't sell it very hard, itsells itself on its own merits.
I think, personally, you comeacross some people and they're
clearly just salesmen and youknow they're trying to flog your
product.
But I think your depth ofknowledge and again, you work
constantly.
We were a little bit delayedtoday because you were involved,
you're still involved in livecases, you're still meeting up
with police officers and stuff,and yeah.
(50:27):
So thanks very much mate.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
Yeah, thank you so much.
I mean I appreciate what you'redoing here, inviting me here
and, like I said, I'm definitelygoing to invite you back on
because I don't think wefinished your presentation,
presentation at the symposium.
I mean it was half an hour butyou could have easily spoken for
probably four hours on some ofthat great material, and I mean
you're also doing a great job.
So, look, I think the feelingis mutual here and thanks so
much.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
All right.
Thanks so much, Eugene.
You take care.
And again, remember you're thefirst ever Canadian, so good on
you.
All right, all right, eh,exactly, send me some maple
syrup.
I love them, they're great.
All right, exactly, send mesome maple syrup, so I love them
, they're great.
All right, all right, eugene.
Thanks very much, take care,cheers.
Hey, thank you for listening tocsi on fire.
(51:09):
Please don't forget to like,subscribe and suggest future
topics on our web page.
Remember factor non-verbal.
Take care, good hunting.
I hope to see you on the nextone.
Hi, welcome to CSI on Fire, the podcast that takes
you behind the scenes of thefire investigation community.
I'm your host, mike Moulden,and episode after episode, we'll
attempt to excavate the oftendifficult but always fascinating
world of the fire investigator.
Okay, so welcome to CSR on Fire.
(00:26):
I've got a fantastic guesttoday, episode 30.
My guest today is Eugene Lisko.
Eugene, welcome to the podcast,mate.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Hey, thank you very much.
Yeah, 30,.
You're moving fast.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yeah, well, not as many as you.
We'll talk a little bit moreabout how many you've got out
there, but we quickly met inRiyadh, actually in Saudi Arabia
, came to a conference, and thisis a bit of a role reversal for
us, because I've been on yourpodcast or your YouTube channel
as well, so let's talk about howyou've ended up on the podcast
today.
What's your background, eugene,and let's start from there.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Okay, sure, I'll start with my education.
Let's say so.
I was always interested intechnical things as a youngster,
so I liked science.
I enjoyed space things andstuff like that.
So eventually, when I went intouniversity, I decided I was
going to go into aerospaceengineering.
So my background is inengineering and aerospace.
I mean there's a lot ofmechanical engineering concepts
(01:17):
and physics and science andthings like that, a lot of math,
but I enjoyed it.
I won't say I was great at it,it was hard work for me, but I
enjoyed it for sure and say Iwas great at it.
It was hard work for me, but Ienjoyed it for sure and still do
to this day.
Eventually I worked in theindustry so I worked at.
Well, it started as McDonnellDouglas and then it turned into
Boeing because Boeing boughtMcDonnell Douglas.
Great experience I had anamazing, amazing boss, just very
(01:40):
much impressed upon me, just alot of knowledge and scientific
methods and things like that.
And so I worked in theengineering lab there with a lot
of very senior people, peoplewho had been there for 20, 30
years, and these people justknew so much.
And fresh out of university,walking into a place like that,
(02:01):
you felt very small becausepeople were just full of
knowledge and they just knew somuch.
But it was a great experience.
Great boss supported me all thetime.
But what ended up happening wasI had never traveled.
I would say I was poor, we weremodest and we didn't have a lot
of money to fly around here andthere as a youngster.
So I always wanted to traveland just due to a number of
(02:22):
different events at the companythere, I decided that I would
move on.
So I went to work for a companyin the US that made equipment
for aircraft which was like itwould wrap around aircraft and
they would rivet, like the wingskins to the spars and skins to
the fuselage and stuff like thatinterview.
(02:43):
The first thing they asked mewas because I had some
experience.
I was working on a projectalready at the previous job, so
I knew some of their equipment.
Actually, I should say thefirst thing that I asked was is
there travel in this position?
And they said oh yeah, hell yeah.
So I said I'm in like let's dothis.
It ended up almost five yearsliving out of hotels.
So I literally went around theworld and great, great
experience as a young single guy, meeting new people and being
(03:08):
immersed.
And they weren't short trips,they were fairly like two months
in one place, two months inanother, so you had time to sort
of ingest the local culture andlanguage and things like that.
So great, great experience.
Now how this all comes back isthat as an engineer, you design
things in 3D Engineers.
They make parts, they doanalysis, they do a whole bunch
(03:29):
of different things While I wasthere.
Part of it was because you'realways on the road and I'm with
a team of service guys orwhatever, and these guys just
drink.
So I said I need to dosomething with my mind because
I'm going to die out here.
I can't keep up the pace withthese guys.
So I started doing some sort ofartistic 3D modeling and things
(03:51):
like that.
But, being in the field so much, I got a lot of feedback from
customers and in my mind Istarted to formulate the idea
for a new machine and at thiscompany they had been doing the
same thing for like 50 years.
It was the old man owned thecompany, no changes and things
like that.
So I had a meeting with theengineers and I said, hey, guys,
I got this idea.
(04:11):
It was kind of like scribblingon paper and such.
And they said, hey, that'spretty cool.
But when we walked out of themeeting I mean there was no
follow-up or anything like thatI said, you know what?
I'm going to design it in 3D,I'm going to create a little
model.
And then I went the next stepand I animated it.
So I had like moving parts Ihad in a little shop environment
with a background, and bytoday's standards it was
(04:33):
probably ridiculous.
I would laugh at it if I saw ittoday.
But I sent that off as a littleanimation.
And what happened was just fiveminutes after I sent it I was
getting emails back and theywere like how the heck did you
do this?
This is a great idea, it's awonderful concept.
And I was just saying, well,yeah, that's what we were
talking about at the meeting.
But it was clear that whenthere's something that is rather
(04:54):
complicated or a difficultconcept, it may be difficult to
describe in words.
And when you create thisanimation or 3D model in words,
and when you create thisanimation or 3D model, you can
often communicate your ideasmuch better.
That got me thinking aboutdifferent areas where I could
apply 3D and that's where Istarted really looking on the
internet and I looked ataerospace, automotive
(05:16):
engineering, assembly line stuff, and then I fell into this
thing forensics.
So I said what the hell is thisforensics thing?
I'm flipping through and likelooking through the internet and
at that time I would printstuff out.
I mean, we're going back over20 years, so I would print stuff
out and I had this massivebinder of just papers and
articles and stuff.
But it was a fairly wide openarea back then in terms of 3D
(05:38):
modeling and it quickly struckme that what could be more
complicated than a crime scene,a fire scene, a collision scene,
where you're trying to tellpeople where something happened
or how it happened, anddescribing it in words is very
complicated.
And this is especiallyimportant at trials, where you
(05:58):
have a jury of people who maybedo not visualize things in 3D
really well and you're trying toexplain certain things well,
what ends up happening iseveryone has their own
interpretation of your words andwhen you can put that down into
a 3D model or some kind ofreconstruction.
In 3D you're limiting theamount of imagination and you're
(06:18):
narrowing everyone in mentallyto focus in on this idea or
concept that you're presenting.
So that's kind of how it allgot started and that's what got
me deciding to go on my own.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Fantastic and we should say actually you're the
first Canadian we've had on aswell actually, eugene.
So well done for the firstCanadian based in Canada.
You obviously saw from yourengineering background again,
I'm from an engineering as welland I remember slogging my way
through certainly through fluidmechanics and thermodynamics for
me, which is a bit ironicconsidering I'm a fire
investigator now but yeah, Iremember it being a bit of a
(06:51):
slog.
But you obviously you took thatconcept and you started to
create these 3D models and how'sthat sort of developed and how
you brought that on into.
You obviously run your owncompany and you're involved with
the university, so how's thatdeveloped from there?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Let me back up.
So when I first started, what Ithought I was going to be doing
was just creating animation.
So if you're getting started inthis particular area the civil
side, car accidents and thingslike that it has a good entry
point.
It's a good gateway, there'smoney there with insurance
companies.
That's what I thought I wouldbe doing.
I thought, hey, I'm going to doanimations, that's it.
So I started doing that.
It worked out okay.
But you learn in business.
What I thought I was going to bedoing and what I ended up doing
(07:29):
were slightly different.
And so after a while I startedsaying, well, this is what
people actually want and there'sother things that people want
and clients want.
And so I started doing thethings that they wanted.
And then, after doing what theywanted, after a few years I'm
like this is what they need,because they don't sometimes
understand what they need.
So it was what I thought I wasgoing to do to I'll do what
(07:52):
people want or what thecustomers want to.
I think this is what they need.
And this turned out to be awhole process and I call it the
3D forensics sort of discipline.
So it's sort of made up ofthree components, and the first
component is the documentationpart, where you have to go out
to a scene or you have to go toa roadway and document things
like the laser scanner,photogrammetry, whatever those
(08:13):
instruments or technologies are.
And the next part is theanalysis side, like how can I
take this data and then convertit or combine it with something
else to learn something from itthat I couldn't do otherwise.
And then finally, on the 3Dmodeling side, is the
visualization aspect right?
So I document in 3D, I cananalyze in 3D and I can also
(08:36):
deliver the analysis in 3D too.
That became a kind of processfor me.
I'm hoping that sort of answersthe question of how I see
things now and how 3D modelingsort of plays a role in my
current work, and currently Ifocus mostly on crime scenes
that just happen that way.
There was no sort of consciousdecision, but I met a number of
people and they said, hey, couldyou help us on this homicide
(08:58):
case or shooting case?
And I said, sure, I'll give ita go.
And it worked out really,really well.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
So today, I would say probably 90% of what I do is
shooting reconstruction cases,like to use the word pracademic
and I didn't reinvent that,that's.
Dr MJ Harding gave me that one,so heads out to her.
But we're practical peoplebecause we're engineers in
essence.
We come from that background.
How does the modeling work?
You've got this applicationcalled AI23D.
I've used it, it.
It it's fantastic, in my viewanyway.
(09:44):
How does it work?
How is it relevant to us interms of crime investigation,
fire investigation?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Okay, so you mean Recon 3D?
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Yeah, ai2 3D is the company.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
There's a number of technologies that I use in my
work, right?
So there's the laser scanner,there's photogrammetry, there's
these smaller structured lightscanners and things like that,
and I work privately, sonobody's sort of throwing
equipment my way.
You have to buy this stuff, andI remember the first time I
purchased, I came back home andI spoke to my wife and I said,
well, I'm going to buy a laserscanner, and she's oh, okay,
(10:15):
this is how much it costs, andthat's the biggest purchase that
I've made.
It's more expensive than my carat the time and for anyone who
works privately, you know howhard you have to work to pay
that kind of money back.
So today, I mean, these kindsof instruments today are like
70,000, 50,000 US, sometimesmore.
I've always been looking for alow cost tool that could help
(10:37):
investigators or people.
I've been experimenting withall kinds of little sensors and
all kinds of things that are$200, $1,000, whatever, but
nothing really impressed me tothe point where I could actually
use it for work.
To make a long story short, acouple of years ago I was
introduced to a technologythrough a friend of mine,
somebody that I knew, anacquaintance or a colleague, if
you want to call him that, and Iwas impressed with what they
(11:00):
had, and this is the iPhoneLiDAR app.
It was an engine that couldingest the data that was
recorded from the AR kit.
So Apple has their iPhone LiDARsince 2020.
It started on the iPhone 12 Proand the iPad Pros and Apple has
something called the AR kit,and the AR kit is a way of
giving developers access to allthis sensor data that's inside
(11:24):
of the phone, including theLiDAR sensor and things like
that.
That's what got us started andI looked at it and I said, man,
I go a lot of the areas whereother sensors would fail, this
would work.
It worked really well.
In May of 2020, I started.
Recon3d officially kicked it offsort of a minimum viable
product.
Recon 3D officially kicked itoff as sort of a minimum viable
(11:47):
product, and that's what startedit all.
And so, basically, recon 3Dtoday is an iPhone scanning
application that is dedicated toforensics.
Okay, so there are other appsout there.
They just want to makeeverybody happy and if it's kid
making video game stuff or allkinds of different things, but
that's not what I'm focused on.
I didn't think I could makeeverybody happy, so I said you
know what I've been working inthis space for 20 years now.
(12:10):
So I'm going to focus onforensics and just make sure
that I can give investigatorsand frontline people a tool that
is effectively in their backpocket, that they can pull out
anytime and document.
So that's what it's about.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Yeah, fantastic and I mean, I've used this at Fire
Scenes, I've used it at CrimeScene.
We did some research here andthe research involved a
comparison of the Leica versusthe iPhone and your app and talk
about.
For those who are as ignorantas I was before I met you, what
is LiDAR?
How does it work?
What's a point cloud?
Go through some of the basicsfor us.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah, sure, no problem.
So the concept of LIDAR isactually quite old, I think.
If I remember correctly, it wasabout the time after Einstein
developed his theory ofrelativity and light and stuff.
And there was an earlyresearcher, a scientist, who
said I think we can do somethingwith light, and I think what we
can do is we can emit some kindof a signal and then wait for
it to bounce back and once itcomes back to us, we can capture
(13:12):
part of this signal and wemight be able to tell something
about the object that we'rehitting or whatever.
Lidar really started taking offwith the advent of the laser.
So the laser was developed inaround the 1960s and the basic
premise there was well, the termlaser was first coined like in
the late 1950s or close to 1960,and so it stands for light
(13:36):
amplification by stimulatedemission of radiation.
So that's what a laser means,and the laser gave people a way
of sending out a beam far away.
But what's unique about thelaser?
Well, two features.
One is it has something calledcoherence.
Okay, so coherence is when youtake the laser pointer and you
point it across the conferenceroom, you still get a little dot
(13:59):
.
It's not like a light bulb thatjust sort of illuminates
everywhere.
Okay, so it's this ability tostay focused over a long
distance.
And the second thing that'shelpful with a laser is that
they can be what's calledmonochromatic, mono-me-one
chromatic meaning color.
You can choose the wavelengththat you want to fire off so it
(14:20):
can be visible, like in a laserpointer red or green or you can
bump up the wavelength and makeit infrared, and there's some
benefits by choosing thewavelength that you want to work
in, depending on the medium.
So LiDAR uses lasers, and theconcept behind LIDAR is I'm
going to take this little laserand I need to send out a signal,
(14:42):
I need to do something, andthere's two ways to do this and
I'll keep it simple.
I'll use the time of flightexample because that's the
easier one to understand.
Okay, if you think about how Ican send you a message with
light, as a kid I rememberseeing this ad on the television
and it was for the Navy.
There was these two ships andthere's one ship and he has this
big light and he's got theselittle shutters on the front.
They're basically using a kindof Morse code.
(15:03):
So there's these pulses thatthey send back and forth, so you
can do the same thing with alaser, and if I send out a very
discreet pulse, just like aflashlight, I turn it off and on
really quickly.
Well, you can start a timerwhen you release that pulse, and
what you do is you wait for thesignal to hit an object and
then bounce back to the receiver, and when it comes back to the
(15:24):
receiver you stop the timer.
Okay, and that is called time offlight.
So, basically, we know thespeed of light, it's constant.
You've got one piece of theequation and you're trying to
figure out the distance andyou've just timed the round trip
.
It's basically just a velocityequation.
Velocity equals distance overtime.
You have twice the time, though, so you have to divide the time
(15:46):
by half, basically, and that'stime of flight.
That's the basics of how itworks.
Now, on a phone it's a littlebit different.
So the type of LiDAR that is onthe iPhone is not the same as
you would find on these largerterrestrial scanners, but there
is a pattern, a series of dots,a grid of dots that comes out of
the sensor on the iPhone, butthe device is in fact
(16:09):
calculating the distance to eachof these points, and by doing
that, and as you move your phonearound, you're basically
painting the wall or the surfaceof the object with all these
dots and basically you'regetting all this information
back.
Hey, I know how far theseobjects are relative to the
sensor.
That's kind of what's happening.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Gotcha Gotcha.
So it's a bit like paintingwith light.
When you're doing photography,then, in the sense of you're
exposing the areas that you'relooking at, similar to, but it's
with a grid of lasers, asopposed to your torch, that
you're illuminating with.
In terms of fire investigationthen and that's why you don't
need it to be lit you can haveit done what you would call an
(16:53):
active component, meaning thatit's sending out its own light.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
So when you do photography, I mean the camera
on its own depends on theenvironment, so you have to help
it somehow.
But a LiDAR instrument willsend out its own light, so it
doesn't depend on what's in theenvironment.
I mean it will have an effecton the overall result, but
ultimately it's looking for thereturn signal of the laser, so
it has its own light source,sure, sure?
Speaker 1 (17:17):
which is really useful yes absolutely yeah, in
terms of kind of for thepractitioner, because I'm very
much conscious, I like to beable to use things in practice.
There's got to be relevant tome as a fire investigator.
How does it work?
So I got my phone, just take itthrough getting the software.
How does it work?
How long does it work?
So I got my phone, just take usthrough getting the software.
How does it work?
How long does it take?
What's the accuracy?
(17:38):
Just take us through those sortof elements if you want.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, sure, no problem.
So the Recon 3D app is justsomething you can download from
the app store.
So the basic app.
You do need a device that isLiDAR capable, okay.
So anything from the iPhone 12Pro onwards.
So two days ago I got the new16 Pro Max and I'm doing it for
testing.
Okay, but any of those devices,no problem.
And once you download it, youbasically have to create an
(18:03):
account.
And once you create an account,if you purchase one of the
plans, it basically getsactivated.
Now, in terms of use, I just dida class on this two days ago,
so I mean, you can talk forhours on it.
But the basic premise is likewe were just talking about this
painting of a surface, right, ifyou're doing a small interior
(18:25):
room or something let's say, avehicle caught on fire or
something like that you want totake the device and you want to
be able to almost like recordinga video, just walk all the way
around the vehicle.
You want to make sure you haveall the areas covered and you
want to point the device so it'smore or less perpendicular to
most of the surfaces.
That's really what you'retrying to do and by doing this
kind of approach and painting.
What happens is you'rerecording all these things at
(18:48):
the same time.
So you're recording video, youhave the LiDAR sensor, you've
got GPS, you've gotaccelerometers and gyros all
this stuff that's in your phoneIn fact, just about everything
that can fire on your phone whenyou're using this will fire.
So people have noticed thattheir phones get warm after a
while.
But what we do is we take thevideo and we extract frames from
(19:08):
the video and on the LiDAR side, each of those frames is
accompanied by this depth.
So we know that there's certainpoints in there that we can
know how far it is on that gridof dots we were talking about.
So that gets turned into what'scalled a depth map.
Okay, so a depth map is reallyjust like a two-dimensional
picture, but each point, insteadof being an RGB color a red,
(19:32):
green and blue color itrepresents depth.
So, for example, an objectthat's farther away maybe like
five meters away, or somethingis blue, and then something
that's really really close wouldbe red, and the LiDAR sensor
has a range of about five meters, not much more.
Yeah, you're not going to bescanning something that is 100
meters away.
It's meant for close range.
But what you do is when youhave a photograph now and you
(19:55):
have an associated depth mapwith these distances.
Basically, you're running aphotogrammetric process.
Okay, so it's actuallyphotogrammetry assisted by LiDAR
.
That's the one thing that is alittle bit unique about Recon 3D
.
Okay, if you use the raw LiDAR,it's actually a little bit
noisy, and so some of the appsout there that just use LiDAR,
you're going to get trash.
You're going to get rubbish,because part of the process in
(20:40):
photogrammetry is it needs tolook for features.
It's counting on the pixeldifferences and contrast and
that sort of thing.
If you don't have that well,you end up with either gaps in
the data or just a lot of noise.
And this was one of the thingsthat impressed me when I first
started looking at thetechnology was the LiDAR says
well, look, the photogrammetrypart can't figure out how far
(21:00):
the wall is, or the car is, orthis burnt, damaged object is,
but the LiDAR sensor can.
So I can help photogrammetryand by fusing those two
technologies, or those twothings together, you end up with
much, much better data.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Sure, Okay, Fantastic .
And it's not just for I've seensome of the stuff that you've
done and I've done fire scenesand bits and pieces.
It's not just for the firescene, it's also say you've got
a heater, for example, an item,a very small item.
You can go all the way aroundthat and you can scan it and you
do a bit of 3D printing as well, so you can actually print out
those bits directly from thatscan.
(21:34):
So it's really accurate.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, you can so, and , like any instrument, it sort
of has a window or a range ofuses, and then when you sort of
get on the edge of one, thenit's not so good on the edge of
the other, right.
So if you think about the phone, it's not meant to do three
miles of roadway or scanningsomething like that, right?
It's meant for smaller scenestypically, and I mean, if you're
going to scan a roadway, adrone and photogrammetry would
(21:58):
be a great way.
So if you have a burnt buildingor something like that, you can
fly it with a drone.
In no time at all.
You can get it up in the air.
It's a great way of documenting, very efficient way too.
On the small side, though, ifyou start getting into smaller
objects that are on the order ofa centimeter, a few centimeters
, whatever, the LiDAR sensorisn't the best way to go.
Again, photogrammetry would bebetter for that, because you can
(22:19):
get a really, really small scan, fine detail, and so it would
be better.
So it has this range ofsomething on the order of a few,
two, three, four feet,something like that, up to 10,
20 meters or in that range couldbe maybe a little bit more, and
that's where it fits.
That's the best you can dothere.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Okay and just for the audience, really is that?
What is the difference inbetween kind of scanning and
photogrammetry?
What is photogrammetry?
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yeah, so photogrammetry is a way of if we
look at it today, it's a way ofcombining photographs, a lot of
overlapping photographs of anobject, and basically what it's
doing is it's going in and it'strying to figure out where all
the cameras were when they tookthe photos, and once you can do
that, you can sort of virtuallylook through all the cameras,
(23:06):
but you can pick a point, and ifyou find the same point in all
the different camera positions,you can kind of triangulate in
on that point and create aunique sort of XYZ coordinate in
space.
I mean a lot of people today,because it's so automated and
much simpler today than it was avery long time ago.
Just people know it as it'ssoftware, that you take a lot of
photos, you upload them to thecloud or something or your
(23:28):
software, and it spits out a 3Dmodel in the end, right.
The benefit there, though, isthat it's obviously very
photorealistic.
Some of these models that arecoming out today just look
absolutely incredible, andthey're also quite accurate, and
one of the strengths ofphotogrammetry is that it has no
real scale.
I could like we were talkingabout a drone.
A drone could be 400 meters inthe air taking photos of a
(23:50):
building or roadway or whatever,or we've done as small as doing
the rich details on the fingerfor like fingerprints or
post-mortem fingerprints, you'rereally limited by the lens.
Okay, but really taking photos,process it in software and then
you end up with a 3D model.
That's the photogrammetry side.
On the laser scanning side orscanning side, there are
(24:11):
different technologies okay, buttypically when people talk
about scanning they often meanlaser scanning.
That will use one of themethods like I talked about
before, like it's got some kindof light source or laser.
It emits that laser and then itcomes back to the unit and it
can figure out what it is.
So the terrestrial laserscanners.
It's basically like a spinninglaser and it rotates vertically
(24:33):
and horizontally, sort of tocapture the 360 environment and
it also captures photographs.
So it goes and takes theselittle snapshots and it takes
maybe it could be 70 or 80.
It just depends on the type ofcamera that's in there.
But it basically fuses allthose photos together to make
like a panoramic image, like afull 360 image, and then it just
applies the color from thepanoramic image like a full 360
(24:54):
image and then it just appliesthe color from the panoramic
image onto the point cloud data.
The 3D data that it picks up andthe data that a laser scanner
provides is called a point cloud, and a point cloud is really
just the position of the 3Dpoints that it measured.
And of course, you can havemillions and millions and
millions of points in a pointcloud.
(25:15):
And the point cloud can becolored.
It doesn't have to be colored,but they're usually quite large
in size, and part of the reasonis some of these scanners can
pick up close to a millionpoints a second.
That's a lot of data.
But each point, if you thinkabout it, if you just pick one
point out of a point cloud, it'sgot an X, y and Z coordinate
(25:37):
and then if you append color,then you've got an RGB channel.
So you got the red, green andblue channel and you also have
the intensity, because itmeasures how much of the signal
has come back to the scanner too.
If I've got 10 million points,I've got seven pieces of
information for every singlepoint.
So this data set starts to growokay and they start to get
(26:01):
pretty big.
But the benefit of the pointcloud is that it's somewhat
realistic.
So for those that might haveused the total station before,
or like a GNSS system whereyou're only taking, like a point
here or point there or pointthere.
They're not colored, they maybe spread out and it's not very
clear sometimes where they takethose points.
So even if I did it by hand orsomething and I don't take a
(26:23):
picture and I just say, well,that's a point on a pole, you're
like, okay, it's on the pole,where exactly on the pole?
Is it three feet off the ground?
Is it one meter off the ground?
Which part of the diameter ofthe pole is it?
So the ability for people tosort of look at the point cloud
and interpret it with some ofthe context like oh, there's a
vehicle, there's a burntbuilding, there's some fluid
here, there's something else, Ithink is very, very useful.
(26:45):
So that's kind of my summary ofthe two different between
photogrammetry and laser.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, fantastic, that made total sense to me, so
that's great.
If it makes sense to me, it'sprobably going to make more
sense to most people.
Yeah, fantastic, and just takeme through, because obviously
we've sort of looking at some ofthese bigger scanners £50,000,
sterling $70,000.
One of the things I want tosort of emphasise really is that
this piece of software, thisapp that you've got, is really
(27:09):
cost effective and it can beuseful to everyone that takes
their phone around with them.
I've got it on my phone rightnow.
So, if I'm at a fire scene,take us through some of the
advantages, some of the costs.
I know that you run trainingonline.
For example, I've done one ofyour courses, which is fantastic
.
So take us through some of thecosts in comparison to if you're
not a big department, you'renot a London Fire Brigade,
you're not Los Angeles CountySheriff's Department, you
(27:34):
haven't got a $50,000, $70,000Leica.
And what's the advantages of it?
What does yours do that?
That doesn't.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Okay, well, let me preface this with saying, first
off, that when we're comparing a$70,000 or whatever expensive
laser scanner, terrestrial laserscanner, to the phone, there is
a difference there and they arenot equivalent.
Okay, so we are comparing twodifferent things.
So the capabilities of theterrestrial laser scanner versus
the phone are totally different, but they each have their place
.
You have to remember that whenApple put the LiDAR sensor
(28:01):
inside of their devices, theyweren't thinking of you or me.
They were thinking of littlekids putting unicorns on the
coffee tables and all thisaugmented reality stuff.
Having said that, laserscanners, terrestrial laser
scanners nowadays, interestingly, there are more options, so the
range of options you get fromcost are greater, but the
typical price hasn't reallychanged much.
(28:22):
Okay, in fact, for some of thedevices they've actually gone up
in price.
So if you're buying one of thepopular devices out there,
you're talking about 70, 80, ahundred thousand us US, so
they're not really cheap.
There are some options you canget on the lower side 30,000 or
whatever.
And more recently there was oneI think it's about 40,000 bucks
US from another company, and Idon't want to get into specific
(28:45):
companies or whatever.
But what people don't realizetoo is that's just the equipment
.
Then you have to train a teamof people.
If your department has four orfive people that need to be
trained, they all have to gothrough the training and what
happens within a lot of thesedepartments.
You start to get people thatmove on.
So a team of four becomes ateam of three or a team of two.
(29:06):
It may still be a team of five,but the people who knew how to
operate the device now havemoved on.
So there's retraining andthings like that.
There's also this issue ofcalibration, the devices.
Well, the manufacturersrecommend that you send them
back for calibration each year.
That's not an inexpensiveendeavor.
So you're losing the instrumentfor up to a few weeks, several
(29:27):
weeks, and it's going to costyou several thousand dollars in
order to do that for sure.
And then there's the softwareside.
The software has maintenance.
So you buy the initial softwareand then, every year, if you
want to maintain the software,there's a cost there too.
So, of course, if somethinggets damaged this is aside from
all of that right.
The costs are significant formany agencies, and even larger
agencies now are really startingto say, geez, this is a lot of
(29:48):
money Like.
Some people are questioningwhether or not they really have
to send the instrument back forcalibration.
Just because it's 365 days,does it mean it's not working
anymore?
Yeah, there's all these things.
And, of course, on the phoneside.
Look, I haven't had to do anyselling or trying to convince
people about the value of thephone.
Everyone gets it.
It's a phone, it's in yourpocket, it's your own device.
(30:09):
There are some people, whomaybe are Android users, who buy
a phone just for scanning, ormaybe they buy an iPad just to
do that, but the app itself forthe full yearly license is $500
a year.
So between the phone, you canbuy a phone for well, let's say,
if you get a decent version onthe Pro Max, it's I don't know,
maybe 1500, 1600 US or somethinglike that, depending on how
(30:31):
much memory and everything else.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
But most people have already either get issued.
I mean, every time I go to anew employer I tend to get
issued with a new phone anyway,and it tends to be the latest
model because it's new.
It doesn't sing, so you kind ofalready got that covered anyway
through normal business issues.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yes, Although one of the challenges that I have is,
for example, in policedepartments and things like that
, and I'm not sure what it'slike in fire departments.
But they will give you a phonebut they don't get you the pro
version of the phone, andsometimes they're with Android
or a Samsung phone versus theApple.
But if they go with the Apple,not everyone goes with the pro.
So if you were to look at thedifference in cost of going from
(31:07):
the Apple a regular Apple phoneto the pro version of the phone
now you're only talking inthose terms yeah, and then $500
a year.
That gives you the onlinecapability so you can send your
data.
Once you record the data, theapp asks you well, what do you
(31:27):
want to do?
Do you want to process it on thecloud or do you want to process
it on the device itself?
And just to separate these twothe cloud it goes up to our
servers, it gets processed andthen you get a notification back
saying, hey, the data is readyfor you to download or whatever,
and that comes through as anotification on your phone and
also an email so you candirectly download it.
Now there's going to be a lotof agencies that do not want to
(31:49):
use anything online and that'swhy there is the on-device
processing, which is 100%offline, so no data gets
communicated, like none of yourpersonal data or recorded data
gets communicated.
If something happens, I can'teven help you.
I have no insight into yourdevice.
You can process it on yourdevice, but there are some
limitations because on theserver we can configure that
(32:13):
with whatever RAM and graphicscards and all kinds of things
you can do on the device.
You're limited to the hardwareand for all of the power that is
in the iPhone and in the Appledevices, which is pretty good.
it's still not going to compareto a high-end server or a gaming
PC or something like that.
It's still limited.
But I offer these two separatecapabilities to accommodate for
(32:35):
people, some of the federalagencies which are just like the
Met, police and FBI and thingsthey're not going to use
cloud-based servers.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Yeah, I fully understand that.
That's okay, and you also dobits of training as well online.
I think you've got differentstages.
I've done your initial courseand you've got different courses
for different horses.
Different courses for differenthorses, as you say.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah, I'll talk about the Recon 3D class first, then
I can talk about some of theother courses.
But because this was going to beused in forensics, I debated at
first whether or not I wasgoing to offer a course for a
phone app, because some peoplemight say oh geez, what the heck
do I need a class for a phoneapp?
I can do this.
However, as you know, if thisis going to be going to trial, I
(33:15):
want people to take the appseriously, and that means that
you may be asked the question doyou know what you're doing with
this app?
Have you been trained on it?
How do you know this thingworks?
I want to make sure that peoplehave the background about the
app and how it's working and howthe technology gets fused
together photogrammetry andlaser scanning and also I want
(33:36):
them to do a validation exerciseas part of the class.
So, in order to get yourcertificate, you have to finish
an assignment, and thatassignment is doing your own
validation.
So if it comes to pass thatsomebody says well, how do you
know this works?
Well, because I checked it.
Okay, so I checked it and Iknow and I think that leads into
, like some of the research thatwe're doing as well, where
we're trying to just make thisall public and to be very clear.
(33:58):
I'm not one of those peoplethat is going to go out there
and say, oh, you know, the appis accurate to some crazy
accuracy.
Whatever I tell people, this iswhat we found and this is what
it is.
And I think in forensics, it'snot about saying how good it is.
It's about understanding whatthe errors are like.
What are the errors, where doesit not work and everything else
.
And so that's what I try tocommunicate to people on the
(34:19):
training courses.
With respect to the otherclasses, I do a lot of online
training because it's veryconvenient.
So the pandemic kind of pushedeverybody to online.
It's interesting just beforethe pandemic, I was already
planning to do online coursesand when it hit, I was ready.
So in June of 2020, so in Juneof 2020, you could have had a
(34:44):
course on basket weaving.
You could have had a course onanything and everybody was
signing up.
I remember I had a shootingreconstruction course or class
that I did online and I had overa hundred people sign up for
this thing.
So I was overwhelmed.
I was thinking I'm going to geta dozen people maybe, and it's
just, the things kept coming in.
I'm saying, like, what'shappening here.
I do enjoy in-person classes andtraining.
(35:04):
There is a time and place foronline.
So a lot of what I do issoftware related to 3D.
So I have a photogrammetrycourse that I do and I want
people to get introduced to theconcepts and how photogrammetry
works and hands-on we get intosoftware creating your own 3D
models.
I have classes aroundbloodstream pattern analysis.
So, again, it's software.
So, hey, let's get in there,let's work with the software.
(35:26):
I do in-person training forpolice.
So with a police agency I'm aFARO certified trainer.
So if somebody buys a FAROscanner, I'll go out, I'll visit
the agency.
So I've got some trainingcoming up where I go and I'll
teach them how to use thescanner and everything else.
And there are other things.
So next month I'm doing ashooting reconstruction class in
person in California and I'mtrying to do webinars and things
(35:46):
like that too.
So there is a cloud compare is avery popular one.
So cloud compare is an opensource program that allows you
to work with 3d data.
So one of the problems I haveis if somebody is using the app.
I remember one class.
I did a little poll and about60% of the people in the class
were brand new to this wholearea.
They had no background in 3D atall, like they've never touched
(36:07):
the laser scanner, never didphotogrammetry.
If they're going to be usingthe Recon 3D app and then
producing a model, they spin itaround on the phone and say, hey
look, how cool this is andthat's all they do and that's
not what I want.
So I want it to be valuable tothem.
So it's no coincidence thatusually after I do the Recon 3D
(36:28):
class probably four or five, sixweeks, right after that, I
usually have a Cloud Compareclass and that gives people some
time to work with the app andthen to be able to do something
with Cloud Compare.
And it's an amazing programbecause it's free.
It's 100% free and it has somany features that some of which
you don't get in paid softwareReally really great software and
I enjoy training.
I love it.
I like bringing people togetherand, for example, we had a user
(36:49):
group meeting for Recon 3D andI thought again like, okay, I'll
have a user group meeting forthe app and it was awesome.
We've done it twice before andI had a great time and people
are coming in, they're showinghow they're using the app and
how they're using it at work andkinds of things they've been
doing with it, and I'm amazed.
I love the energy and I likethe passion that people have
about the app.
So, as a developer like and I'mnot a developer, I'm not a
(37:11):
programmer, right Like, Iremember that so I have people
that are programming but I'msort of steering the ship, so to
speak, and you can't pay adeveloper a higher compliment
than actually using the app forserious work.
That's a really good feelingwhen you see people are really
using it for work.
So I'll continue to do somemore training and we have a
whole bunch of things that arecoming up.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yeah, sure, we should mention here, probably about
the forensic symposium theforensic photography symposium,
because you were kind enough toinvite me to get involved in
that last well, this yearactually, and there's another
one coming up and I found thatwas absolutely fascinating in
terms of drones, photogrammetry,3D scannings, everyone from all
over the world.
So just tell us a little bitabout that.
When's the next one?
(37:53):
What's it about?
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Yeah, so well, a little bit of background.
So because I was teachingphotogrammetry, I noticed that
when people were handing in theassignments, there was some
disparity between the abilitiesof people to actually take good
photographs.
Some people were amazing andlike really, really great
photography skills, and thensome people were like yeah, they
were good.
Yeah, I said there must be aplace where people go to get
(38:17):
trained for photography andthere are classes and certain
things out there.
But it was fairly limited andit was limited to maybe certain
people that go out train apolice agency or a fire
department or something likethat.
But yeah, I said, you know what, let me just bring people
together.
I mean, what is the most useddevice at just about any
forensic scene, whether it'sfire or crash scene or whatever?
(38:38):
It's a digital camera.
I thought, well, there has tobe something, but anyway.
So I said let me just try it.
It worked out great.
We did the first one a fewyears ago.
This will be the fourth onethat's coming up and basically
the idea is bringing peopletogether from all over the world
, anywhere.
It's online.
It's usually four days or soand we cover a whole bunch of
topics and photogrammetry andsome of those things get
(39:00):
included in there, although I'mreally trying hard to keep it
centered around photography andsome of the new technologies and
such.
So there's another one comingup.
It's January 20th this year.
I believe that week we're goingto try something a little
different based on the feedbackthat the people have provided.
So in the mornings.
We're going to try a series ofshort courses.
(39:20):
So the Monday, tuesday,wednesday and Thursday the
morning session will be able tofour hour class on some specific
topics.
So we're sort of finalizingthat right now.
But it could be macrophotography, it could be on
software, it could be on workingwith different things.
So people who complete thosewould get a certificate for each
(39:40):
of those little short courses.
And I think it's a great way tolearn from some of the really,
really talented people that areout there doing some fantastic
work.
So the symposium is a lot of fun.
It's recorded too, because wedeal with people from all you
know.
You're in Riyadh, there'speople in England, there's
people in Australia, new Zealand.
So some people are verydedicated and they're up at two
in the morning or three in themorning to watch these things.
(40:02):
I don't know if I would be thatwilling to get up at that time,
but hey, kudos to them.
People can catch up with therecordings at any time and
they're available for about amonth or so or a few weeks after
.
And yeah, we get vendors, weget people talking about their
new hardware, new things.
Mirrorless cameras were started, nikon, canon, fuji, software,
(40:22):
people like a whole bunch ofdifferent topics surrounding
photography.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Yeah, I mean, I don't recommend things unless I
actually believe in things, andI found it.
I was a speaker, but I foundthe rest of the course
absolutely brilliant and I foundit really useful in terms of
there is some research guys,some really really clever
technical guys as well.
I remember the post-mortem guy.
I remember there was somereally really clever technical
guys as well.
I remember the post-mortem guy.
I remember there were some realpracticalities of things like
just down to say I can see, Imean the the listeners can't see
(40:47):
what I see, but I can see yourpoll in your back, your
extension poll, and there waspracticalities about which is
the best part.
I've used this poll and otherpeople say, well, try this one,
I found this one really useful.
I found it really useful eventhough it was online.
It incredibly useful from apracticality.
Actually, people who do the jobday in, day out saying, well,
this is what I found, this isthe best one I found, and people
(41:08):
took that away and I'vecertainly purchased some of the
things that was discussed andmade my life gimbal, for example
, that kind of stuff and some ofthe best ones.
And also, you should mention,you give away prizes, some great
prizes as well, just randomlybased on feedback, and that's
good as well.
So, yeah, thoroughly recommendthe Forensic Photography
Symposium and, yeah, really,really good, fantastic.
(41:30):
Well, as I knew, eugene, we weregetting towards the end of our
time, unfortunately, but yousaid about your travel and stuff
, and I know that you had alittle European, what you called
the European tour, and you'vejust been to Japan.
What do you see next in termsof?
I mean, I see apps like yoursas complementary.
They're not going to replacethe photography section of it,
they're not going to replaceyour scene notes, you're not
going to replace your sketches,but it's just another tool, and
(41:52):
I think I saw just on LinkedIntoday the new goggles have come
out and the new glasses andthings like that.
How do you see the future of,like, not just 3D scanning, but
also the presentation ofevidence, the presentation of
scenes?
How do you see that going?
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Okay, so you really set me up, and I don't know if
you planned this or knew this.
I don't think I told you thisyet, but there's something new
that I'm going to be releasingin about a month from now.
And I actually didn't know thatOkay, so I didn't announce it
publicly, but it is related tothe presentation of evidence.
I'll get to that, but let metry to answer your question
first.
So yeah, because the data thatwe capture is in 3D and
everything's 3D, with the app orit doesn't matter any 3D
technology, the way that itpresents.
(42:31):
There are different ways youcan present it.
So some people will take 3Ddata and they'll turn it just
into a two-dimensional drawing.
Some people will take it and alot of the laser scanners now,
for example, will have thesevirtual tours that you can just
export from the software.
It's a byproduct of having thepanoramic image and all the scan
data.
So that's a virtual tour islike another way.
You can also have 3D printing.
(42:51):
We talked about 3D printing andit's totally doable with 3D
data.
What I love about it is you canmake things that are very small
, large, or you can make thingsthat are very large, small and
you can hand it to somebody in acourtroom.
So that's another way ofhanding out 3D data.
Another way is virtual reality.
So you mentioned the gogglesand things like that.
So there are companies thatwork in fire investigation and
(43:13):
in crime scene investigation infact River in the UK.
So reality and virtual reality,alex Harvey and his group are
doing some great work.
There are people, researchersaround the world that have, for
example, these caves where youwalk in and there are projectors
on the ceiling on the side andthings where you can get
multiple people inside of ascene.
(43:33):
And another way is somethingthat I did on a case geez 2010.
But if you imagine a gamingengine where you put your whole
scene in there and yourreconstructions and things like
that, but you can give it tosomebody so when they receive it
, they can just launch it ontheir computer and they can
rotate around and it does acouple of things.
One is they can appreciate thedata that you collected in the
form that it exists, which is 3D, so they can rotate it around
(43:55):
and inspect it that way.
The second thing is that itgives you a means of entering
this as evidence at trial,because otherwise it may be an
animation which is moving, butit's also static.
You can't move out of thepositions that the author chose
to fly around and, for the mostpart, a lot of people just take
screenshots and put it in theirreports.
(44:15):
I think, with virtual realityand all that other stuff.
It's great we can take the 3Ddata, but there's some
challenges right.
So the full on six degrees offreedom virtual reality where
you've got goggles on, you canwalk around.
It just doesn't make any senseto have that in a courtroom,
because having 20 people walkaround or something, I mean it's
not going to work.
It doesn't work.
Just yet, you can take one stepback and there's three degrees
(44:37):
of freedom.
So basically, you're in abubble view.
I could take you on a virtualtour and you could be.
12 jurors could be sitting in aseat, all with goggles on, but
they can't walk, there's nomovement, but they can look
around.
So they're inside of this 360image or spherical image and
they can look up, they can lookdown and you could take people
on a virtual tour that way.
These are some of the things.
(44:58):
I think that's probably thenext evolution before we jump
into full.
Full VR.
Six Degrees of Freedom.
Vr is probably this littleThree Degrees of Freedom virtual
tour.
We just have goggles and lookaround.
Now I'll get to what I wastalking to, which is new.
So in about a month from now,I'm hoping, if everything goes
well, I'm going to be releasingsomething called Vision 3D.
(45:20):
So we have Recon 3D, which isthe app, and then I'll be
releasing Vision 3D.
Vision 3D is sort of a sisterproduct to Recon 3D and what it
will let you do is take the scanand import it into the software
.
And once you do that, if youhave accompanying photos, videos
, maybe 360 imagery, if you havea report that you've done, if
(45:42):
there's audio, if there's CCTVfootage, things like this, what
you'll be able to do is take orcreate little tags on the point
cloud.
So let's say, there's a fireoriginated around a certain spot
and you want to tag that.
You can click on it and you canput a little text like it's a
halo, this is the origin andlocation.
Maybe you want to add a littlemeasurement that goes from there
to someplace else.
You've got high resolutionphotos that you want to
(46:03):
incorporate.
You can tag those and put thosein there.
You took a little video, youdid all this stuff and basically
, once you package it alltogether, you can just export it
as a zip file and you can sendit to somebody.
You can mail them a USB with iton offline or you can send it
through the internet.
Whatever you prefer, but it isa completely offline tool and
(46:27):
when they open it, they get avery simple viewer where they
can interact with your model andall of the media.
So if you think about thevirtual tours, like the real
estate tours, where you have apanoramic image and you fly
through, the panoramic image isthe basis of the virtual tour.
So what I'm talking about isnot a virtual tour, it's a
virtual model.
So it's a model that has allthe other media around it.
So the basis of this virtualmodel is the point cloud data or
(46:49):
the 3D data.
I think it's going to allowpeople to appreciate the data in
the format that you had it, andalso it will give people an
opportunity to use it at trial,because you can submit it on a
USB key as evidence.
I think those two things aregoing to be really, really
important.
And it's not limited to Recon3D.
You can bring in terrestriallaser scanner data, you can
(47:11):
bring in photogrammetry data,you can bring in multiple 3D
models and then align them howyou want or whatever.
So it's a starting point.
I'm really excited about it.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
I'm nervous about it too.
It sounds fantastic.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Currently in beta, but hopefully I'll be doing a
webinar on it in the future.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
Okay, fantastic, I mean brilliant.
I mean that wasn't set up atall, so that was nice that kind
of shows that we're current andrelevant.
Excellent, fantastic.
I think we're going to have tovery quickly call it a day, to
be honest, eugene.
But I just wanted to say aboutyour other kind of enterprise,
which is, of course, forensicTalks.
So just tell us a little bitabout Forensic Talks.
That's how I actually came toknow you, before I actually
physically met you face to face.
But yeah, just talk to us.
You've had John Lentini on, andthen you had another guy called
(47:53):
Mike Moulden, who don't quitecompare.
But just tell us about ForensicTalks.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Ah, you're humble, but yeah, no, you did a
wonderful job and you did agreat job at the Forensic
Photography Symposium.
You had some great feedback onyour presentation too.
But Forensics Talks was apandemic sort of idea and
originally I said I'm going todo it about my work.
I said I'll talk about 3D andI'll talk about what I'm doing
or whatever.
And then 30 seconds later Isaid that is going to get so
boring so fast, so I'm not goingto do that.
I'm not going to do that.
So I think what I'll do is whydon't I just open it up?
I said there's so manyfascinating people in the
forensics area and I said I canbring in everybody.
(48:28):
Just make it about fire, aboutcollision investigation, about
anthropology, about all theseareas that are way, way out of
my wheelhouse that I have noknowledge of.
I started that maybe three yearsago and I just enjoy doing it.
I mean, I do it when I can.
It's not like I try to do themon Thursdays at 2 pm, but hey,
I'm busy and everybody else isbusy, so it's not a every
(48:48):
Thursday thing, but I just didthe 105th episode yesterday and
a little break over the summer,but I'm back rolling again.
I learned so much and I've metso many people and you did a
great talk, john Lentini did agreat talk on fire investigation
and if you just do a search forforensics talks and John
Lentini or whatever, you'll pickit up the same thing with you.
(49:09):
Just put your name in there,they'll figure it out.
I'm just going to keep doing itand the only incentive is that
I think it's fun and I thinkit's informative and that's it.
That's the only reason I do it.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Yeah, I think you know again, not blowing smoke up
your ass, eugene but it'sreally interesting stuff.
You have all different types ofspeakers.
I found the Geoscope guy, theIrish guy, I found that that was
just like blew my mind thetechnology and how much
knowledge he has, and you havegot some really big hitters on
there across it.
So I thoroughly recommendForensic Talks.
It's as you say, it's a visualthing as well.
So it's not audio, it's visualas well as audio.
I think you've got it in thetwo formats.
But, yeah, thoroughly recommendit.
(49:46):
And that's how I, as I said, Iknew you several years before I
actually ever met you in thatformat because you're obviously
the host.
But, yes, absolutely brilliant.
So, eugene, again sorry, maybewe'll get you on another time,
but we're sort of running out oftime, but it's been absolutely
fascinating.
I think just listening to youjust shows your depth of
knowledge, just shows your stuffand you've got a product but
(50:07):
you don't sell it very hard, itsells itself on its own merits.
I think, personally, you comeacross some people and they're
clearly just salesmen and youknow they're trying to flog your
product.
But I think your depth ofknowledge and again, you work
constantly.
We were a little bit delayedtoday because you were involved,
you're still involved in livecases, you're still meeting up
with police officers and stuff,and yeah.
(50:27):
So thanks very much mate.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
Yeah, thank you so much.
I mean I appreciate what you'redoing here, inviting me here
and, like I said, I'm definitelygoing to invite you back on
because I don't think wefinished your presentation,
presentation at the symposium.
I mean it was half an hour butyou could have easily spoken for
probably four hours on some ofthat great material, and I mean
you're also doing a great job.
So, look, I think the feelingis mutual here and thanks so
much.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
All right.
Thanks so much, Eugene.
You take care.
And again, remember you're thefirst ever Canadian, so good on
you.
All right, all right, eh,exactly, send me some maple
syrup.
I love them, they're great.
All right, exactly, send mesome maple syrup, so I love them
, they're great.
All right, all right, eugene.
Thanks very much, take care,cheers.
Hey, thank you for listening tocsi on fire.
(51:09):
Please don't forget to like,subscribe and suggest future
topics on our web page.
Remember factor non-verbal.
Take care, good hunting.
I hope to see you on the nextone.
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