June 25, 2024 • 43 mins
Ever wondered what it takes to become a leading expert in vehicle fire investigations?
Join us as we sit down with Bob McKay, a seasoned fire investigator from Australia with over 43 years of experience, to uncover the fascinating journey from being a factual insurance investigator to establishing McKay Forensic Investigations.
Learn how a critical case involving a flawed expert opinion on a heavy vehicle fire led Bob to seek formal training and carve out a niche in investigating everything from road cars to heavy mining equipment. This episode promises a deep dive into the meticulous techniques used to unravel the mysteries behind vehicle fires.
We'll also shed light on the complexities of electric vehicle fires and the growing concerns around them. Discover the potential causes of vehicle fires, be it from electrical system failures, fuel delivery malfunctions, or mechanical issues.
Bob shares his firsthand experiences with EV fire investigations, including a notable e-truck fire in Melbourne, and discusses the media's role in amplifying the hysteria around these incidents.
From addressing the problems with e-scooters and e-bikes to the political landscape surrounding electric vehicles, this episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the nuanced world of vehicle fire investigations.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, welcome to CSI on Fire, the podcast that takes
you behind the scenes of thefire investigation community.
I'm your host, mike Moulden,and episode after episode, we'll
attempt to excavate the oftendifficult but always fascinating
world of the fire investigator.
Welcome to CSI on Fire, yourfire investigation podcast.
(00:27):
This is episode 21.
I've got a fantastic guest ontoday all the way from down and
under in Australia.
I've got Bob McKay.
Bob, welcome to the podcast,thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Thank you, Mike.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
As I do with all guests.
Bob, let's go through yourhistory.
Let's go through how you'veended up on the podcast today.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Right?
Well, that's reasonably simple.
43 and a half years ago Istarted working as a factual
insurance investigatorinvestigating workers
compensation claims and so on,and as the years progressed I
got emboldened various otherbasically any insurance claim
you could make.
I was at some stageinvestigated.
About 10 years after that Ithrew in teaching investigation
(01:16):
at one of our technical collegesin sydney where they now
require all privateinvestigators to complete a TAFE
course.
So I taught that for 13 yearsas well as working in the
industry.
And in the early 2000s I had sixfactual investigators working
(01:37):
for me, predominantly doingmotor vehicle at that stage.
So we were looking at motorvehicle theft, fire, not in a
forensic sense, I might addcollision work and so on.
And then different thingsstarted to happen within the
insurance spectrum, particularlyin Sydney.
(01:59):
So I wound the team back to aone-man operation and spent a
couple of years investigatingdust disease work such as
mesothelioma silicosis and so on.
That was going really welluntil the New South Wales
government made it a no-faultinjury, which is great for those
(02:23):
poor devils that have theproblems.
So I went back to essentiallymotor vehicle work and did some
of that and had two maininsurers here in Australia, both
(02:48):
of which predominantly insuredheavy vehicles.
So we're talking rigid trucks,semi-trailers, and out here, of
course, we run a lot of dualtrailer situations, such as we
call them B-doubles, and in factwe've started to move in the
(03:09):
last year or so to runningB-triple.
So we've got one prime mover,three trailers and basically 85
metres of truck.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
So that's like a road train.
Is that what we would call aroad train?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, you would, but the coupling's different.
And that's why.
Because what you've got is yourprime mover.
Then you've got your A trailerwith a turntable at the back of
it, then the B trailer fits ontothat, and if it's a B triple,
the B trailer also has aturntable or fifth wheel, and so
(03:45):
on.
Road trains are a slightlydifferent connection.
I won't get into thetechnicalities of it, but road
trains can be up to anywherefrom three to five trailers long
, depending on where they'regoing.
They certainly do present theirown unique set of problems.
So we did that and it be a bitover 10 years ago one of my
(04:11):
heavy vehicle clients came to meand said we want you to
investigate this particular fire.
We've already had a.
They use the term expert.
Look at it.
The expert deemed that it wasincendiary fire.
I thought it was odd.
I said well, okay, what do youwant me to do?
And basically it was go andinterview our insured and
(04:36):
essentially prepare a brief ofevidence for the police, that's,
if the insured wanted tocontinue on with that particular
claim.
When I read the expert opinionreport, I was a little horrified
, to say the least.
I had plenty of baselessaccusations, comments, no
(04:58):
physical evidence at all and Iwas quite worried about it.
So ultimately I went andinterviewed our insured and all
the people involved drivers,witnesses and so on and I was
then really concerned.
So I went back to ourinstructive insurance company
(05:20):
and said look, I've got someconcerns about what your
expert's now saying.
I would like the opportunity togo and look at this particular
vehicle for myself so I canclear a few thoughts in my own
mind Because of the long-termrelationship.
They said, yeah, go for it, andwe did.
(05:41):
That resulted in me essentiallywriting a report that basically
explained to the insurancecompany why their expert was
wrong and gave them the evidence, how the evidence stacked out,
how the interplay of evidencecame about, and also told them
(06:01):
why the truck burned down.
Yeah, in this case it was a cabover engine configuration
vehicle and essentially theunder cabin insulation after
several years of road run andgrease and all of the other
dropped onto a hot turbochargerafter working all day and slow
(06:24):
smoldering fire Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
And is that when you kind of went on your own?
Is that when you set up McKayInvestigations?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
No, mckay Investigations was essentially a
factual side of it.
So we were doing still motorvehicle theft and bits and
pieces.
But then I launched McKayForensic Investigations, which
does nothing but vehicle fires.
But from that first matterwhere the expert got it so wrong
(06:55):
, I was not particularly kind tothe person who will remain
nameless.
But then it occurred to me thatwhile I had a reasonable amount
of outfire, I had no formalfire training.
So I went and did that.
I started out with theInternational Association of
Arson Investigators and sat theexam for fire investigation
(07:19):
technician.
I then qualified or got thespecialist credentials for motor
vehicle fire and after that Iactually attended Charles Sturt
University and got a graduatecertificate in fire
investigation.
Mind you, that was after Irewrote the diploma for motor
(07:42):
vehicles, their diploma formotor vehicles, and ultimately
went on to be approved to sitfor the Certified Fire
Investigation examination, whichI did.
And as time has progressed, allwe're doing is motor vehicle
fires and, as you said at thebeginning, a lot of that work is
(08:05):
in heavy vehicles.
But for us it can be ordinaryroad cars, passenger vehicles,
four-wheel drives and the like,right up to heavy mining
equipment.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Okay.
So pretty much everything inthe family Kind of agricultural
stuff.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
In fact, only recently I had atrip to Mount Isa which was
going to be our base ofoperations for a combine
harvester fire.
Okay, and just to get there wasan interesting exercise.
I flew into Mount Isa on theMonday evening.
(08:47):
On the Tuesday morning I droveback to the airport.
I was picked up by a lightaircraft and flown 250 to 300
kilometres to the northeast ofMount Isa, got out of the light
aircraft east of Mount Isa, gotout of the light aircraft into a
helicopter.
Another 45-minute flight to thecombine harvester.
(09:11):
And when we landed andbasically tossed me out of the
helicopter, it was how long areyou going to be about this much
time?
And I said, okay, we'll comeback at this time, but if you
finish early, call us on yoursatellite telephone.
Okay, we'll come back at thistime, but if you finish early
calls on your satellitetelephone we'll come and get you
.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
And that's exactly what we did I think that's the
thing to say.
Isn't it about australia?
Is, I guess if you're doingthese heavy vehicles and these
agricultural stuff, it's such avast country, you're the first
ever fire investigator on theprivate side anyway that I know
is caught a helicopter to a firescene.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
So well, actually that's the second time I've done
that.
I did it in 2016 and in fact,if you had a look at my win page
, you've got this truck madlyblazing away.
That was actually taken by thedriver five or ten minutes after
he got out of the cabin, butthat truck was 185 kilometres in
(10:11):
due east of Broome in WesternAustralia and I did actually get
a helicopter there.
But just to add to what yousaid about the size of Australia
, the property that thisparticular harvester was on is
actually 3,821 square kilometresin size Wow, which is, yeah,
(10:35):
really big.
Actually records the GPSlocations and there have been a
few times when I've actually hadto tell the insurance company
what the GPS location is so theycan go and find it Gotcha
Fascinating.
And, of course, living up herein tropical North Queensland,
(11:00):
we're miles from anything really.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
For example, there's 1,415 kilometers to the south of
where I am yeah, rapid responseis gonna sometimes take a day
or two just together well,indeed, in fact, only this
coming week, on wednesday, I'mflying from Cairns to Wagga,
(11:25):
wagga, which is in southwesternNew South Wales.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
So that's a flight from Cairns to Sydney getting to
a smaller aeroplane flight,sydney to Wagga.
I can't get return flights thenext day, and this is for a
prime move of fire.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
I've got the Thursdayursday all day and
morning and on friday I start myreturn journey back to cairns
and she'll be back here at aboutone o'clock in the afternoon I
guess with obviously, if you'retraveling these distances and
things, I know that we'retalking about your truck, maybe
a little bit because I'm inadmiration of your new truck but
(12:06):
you're going to have to makesure you've got your kit with
you because if you're gettinghelicoptered in and helicoptered
out, you can't just pop to thetruck and get another piece of
kit.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
No, no, indeed.
For the fly-on, fly-out work wehave what we call the go kit,
and the go kit is essentially apull-along suitcase on steroids
when I found the the dramas inflying into places.
So the most like this largestsingle piece of luggage I can
(12:38):
carry is 32 kilo, and this casecan't go up to 32 kilo.
But you need to be veryselective as to what you put
into it.
There are other limitations.
Working in australia earlier inthe year, for example, I had to
go to a place called tenantcreek, which is almost smack in
(13:04):
the middle of the NorthernTerritory, so I had to fly to
Darwin.
The day before the next day itwas catch the 8 o'clock flight
to Tennant Creek.
Fortunately the truck I waslooking at was already in a
workshop, because the carry-onluggage for this flight was four
(13:25):
kilograms.
My camera with one lens and asmall flash gun weighs two kilo
and it causes all sorts ofissues.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
It causes some issues I picked up on the mining side
of things.
I know Australia's got amassive amount of mining.
Have you ever had a fire downin the mine and you've had to go
down into the mine?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
I've had one.
Well, it was thought to be anunderground logger, or what they
refer to as a bogger, and Iessentially got called in the
same day it happened.
Okay, I couldn't get into themine site on that day because we
(14:09):
had the state mine inspectorsthere.
They take charge of everything.
We finally did get in, with theinspectors watching everything
you do with their ownindependent investigator, which
was interesting because I knowthe person quite well.
Essentially, it turned out thatit wasn't the vehicle, okay,
(14:30):
gotcha.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
It's interesting to hear that even in your kind of
specialist area, in a country asvast as Australia, you can bump
into other fire investigatorsthat you've worked with or that
you know already.
So it's a small world, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Well, it is.
I mean, because I've got theNew South Wales Association of
Fire Investigators T-shirt on,because I am a member, even
though I know a lot of, in factprobably most of the fire
investigators of any credibilityin the country because of my
(15:05):
exposure to the variousassociations.
I think Mick Forbes, in hissituation, explained about the
association set up here inAustralia.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
I think you're the former secretary, aren't you?
Speaker 2 (15:18):
I'm still the secretary until August.
Oh okay, unfortunately we get alot of people in the industry
when I say in the industry, inthe investigation industry that
hold themselves out to be fireinvestigators and they have no
qualifications.
(15:38):
And unfortunately, insurancecompanies don't seem to
understand how important it isto have somebody that's
qualified at fire looking at afire.
I've had situations where we'vehad people with degrees in
mechanical engineering lookingat a fire and have no idea what
(16:02):
they're looking at.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
The background of fire investigators that I come
across is so diverse.
Some are ex-firefighters whohave then gone into fire
investigation on the public side, or police CSIs.
But, like you say, you've gotchemists, you've got there's
biologists, even guys zoology,and you think you can qualify.
I don't think there's anyrestriction.
But you have to be very carefulon what you're purporting to be
(16:26):
able to do.
I don't think you can be amaster of all trades, if that
makes sense.
You've got to try andspecialise and make sure that
you don't step outside your box.
I get like that with electrical.
I don't know enough.
I know enough to say, ok, Ithink this fire is caused by
electrics resistance orsomething like that, but then,
when it gets down to the nittygritty, just call in an
electrical engineer to actuallyoffer expertise and expert
(16:47):
opinion on that.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
so yeah, it's really important to stick inside your
lane, I think yeah in fact, I'vehad situations myself where
I've gone in, I've looked at afire and I'm back and said this
is what it appears to be.
I can't make a call on it, soI'm going to say it's
undetermined, but suggest thatyou bring in whether it's a
(17:12):
forensic, mechanical engineer,an electrical engineer, somebody
with the qualifications, orI'll call it and suggest that
this is the way we should go tofirm up our evidence,
particularly if we're going tolook at something in the line of
recovery, and a lot of what Ido is related to potential
(17:34):
recovery situations.
For example, the vehicle I'mlooking at on Thursday recently
had its turbocharger replacedGotcha.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
That kind of brings me on to the next phase, if you
like, if that's all right, bob,in terms of causes, in terms of
heavy vehicles, agriculturalequipment, can we just go
through some of the typicalcauses, some of the things that
you're going to look at?
You mentioned there, you know,obviously some sort of
maintenance or change, changingdevice or something, but can we
just go through some of your,from your experiences, what sort
(18:05):
of things that if you're goingto get into?
Okay?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
the first thing I like to do is to establish what
the vehicle was doing at thetime of the fire igniting.
If it's parked well, okay,we're going to be looking at
incendiary, we're going to belooking at potential electrical,
but of course that then comesdown to how long has it been
(18:30):
parked.
Has it been parked for 10minutes?
Could we have a hot surfaceignition or similar, or is it
going to be well, it was parkedthere for three days and I've
gone up in flames.
That's easy.
But if the thing's moving, weneed to consider and in no
particular order, but electricalsystems.
(18:53):
So have we had electricalconductors abrading and going to
a short circuit or an arc?
We need to look at fueldelivery systems.
Has there been a failure ofthat fuel delivery system?
We had one particular engineout here that went through five
recalls and every time they didthe recall, all of a sudden you
(19:18):
see them coming back again.
But that's because the enginewas pumping diesel at 18,854 PSI
and when a particular vibrationdampener, a P-clip, broke.
Then you lost mechanicalsealant, the head rail, and all
of a sudden you've got a dieselatomising at eight and a half
(19:41):
tonne of pressure.
The fuel delivery systems hasbeen a mechanical failure.
I did one down in Adelaide acouple of years ago.
I was talking to the driver.
I said well, tell me whathappened.
He said I'm driving down thishill and all of a sudden there
was a big bang and the truck'son fire.
(20:02):
So I went down.
It was a Cabo Virgin vehicle.
I said to the guys look, Imight need you to get your heavy
tow unit around here to dragthis cabin forward if I can't
find the course.
And that's what we did.
And when we got the cab forward, I know why the fire happened
(20:23):
because he was in the wrong gearand he blew the side out of the
engine.
We've had the electric ones, asI've said.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
What about friction on the brake linings and that
kind of stuff?
I've had one of them.
I call it the deadly trio.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Wheel bearings, brakes, tyres Gotcha, you're
wheel bearing fast.
Yep, you're going to wind upwith a fault.
The brake drag you get brakedrag or a brake locking on.
I've even had brake actuationchambers actually break off the
(20:59):
axle and just hang around on thepush rod until it compromises
one of the airlines and you geta partial application of what we
call the maxi brake or thesafety brake, and that's
partially or not entirely, andcreates enough friction for the
(21:20):
whole braking system to go upand fly, usually after the tyre
catches fire.
And of course then there's tyrefires and they are really really
hard to work on because most ofwhat you're looking for no
longer exists Exists, yeah, sure, in fact, in the B-doubles and
the road trains it is quitecommon to get what we
(21:44):
collectively call a wheel infire, so bearings, brakes, tyres
in the back trailer, so the Btrailer.
That's a long way from wherethe driver is and he can get a
tyre fire and won't even knowabout it until somebody calls
him on the UHF radio and says no, mate, you're on fire.
(22:06):
Sure, road trains are also thethird trailer.
In a road train it can moveacross the traffic light and run
off the edge of the road andcause damage.
In fact, I did a car carryingtrailer in a road train a few
(22:27):
years ago up in Alice Springs,car carrying trailer, eight cars
on board and we're looking atit.
And car carrying trailers arereally interesting because you
need to know are they brand newor are they secondhand?
If they're secondhand, thencould the fire be caused by one
(22:50):
of the cars through electricalfault and so on.
You look at all of those buteffectively, from a vehicle
investigation, there are systemsand you, as best you can, try
to work through those systemsand say, well, okay, was it fuel
, is the turbocharger working,are there any issues with fuel
(23:17):
lines, et cetera.
The other one that I shouldthrow into is hydraulics.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Sort of abraded hoses , that sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, sort of the same thing Abrasion of hoses,
failure of hoses, that sort ofthing.
Yeah, so the same thingabrasion of hoses, failure of
hoses.
And that comes not only intoroad transport, such as tip
trucks, because they've gothydraulics, but you've also got
car carrying trails, where thethe floors are moved by
hydraulics, et cetera, and so on.
(23:49):
Another one that can be anissue is when diesel, in
particular filters or DPFs go toregeneration burns.
I've had a number of vehicleswhere they're small, rigid pan
technicans, they're doingstop-start work, the DPF becomes
(24:10):
cloggedged, it goes to do aregen burn and the diesel winds
up in places where it shouldn'tgotcha and what about
agricultural stuff?
Speaker 1 (24:20):
you know your term, your harvesters, that sort of
stuff, anything in particularfor that?
We don't see much of that.
If I'm honest, I've neverworked on anything like that,
but is there anything specificto those things?
Speaker 2 (24:30):
recently, in fact, the mount oser trip.
It was one particular brand ofharvester, we could also call
them headers.
It actually started in mid 2022.
I had a job south western newsouth wales went down, met the
owner at his gate and he said oh, it's down in the machine shed.
(24:53):
Just drive around the back ofthe house, you'll see it there,
I'll be down in a couple ofminutes.
So I drove in.
I thought, okay, where is it?
And he arrived and I saidwhere's the hen?
He said you stand inside it.
I said okay, now show me wherethe fire was.
Ernie showed me and I thoughthang on a minute.
I said what were you harvesting?
(25:16):
Entirely, we looked at relativehumidity, temperature, etc.
Etc.
Etc.
And I came away thinking thislooks like static electricity.
It really does look like it andstatic electricity has been a
bit of a myth.
In january last year I sawanother one of these harvesters
(25:41):
absolutely identical, same crop,everything.
The only difference betweenthat one or the Ehrlich first
two, the one out of Mount Isathat was harvesting chickpea,
but the fire damage wasabsolutely identical.
(26:01):
And I'm thinking it, I'm seeingthis and I know where it's
happening, because down on theside of the rotor cage.
They've got five.
And I know where it's happeningbecause down on the side of the
rotor cage they've got five ABSresin gates.
These lock in so you can takethem off.
Look at the rotor and think,okay, fine, but when they're
(26:24):
closed you've got cyclonic windand vegetation debris screaming
past, hitting these things.
I'm thinking, and there's oneparticular point they're covered
, bearing over on the inside ofthe header.
It's angular and I'll guaranteethat's our static electricity
(26:44):
discharge point.
It's doing the same thing burnsthe number five door right hand
rear corner, which is runningright beside the main engine
harness that runs down theoutside of it.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
I guess, if you're seeing trends, I guess because
you're quite niche, you would bethe one who would see these
kinds of things on a consistentbasis, whereas if I was
instructed and I would be.
But if I was instructed I mightsee one, I might see one in
five years or ten years, whereasif you're seeing them and
you're seeing the same thing,then obviously there's something
not quite right there.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Well, I would think so, but sometimes with the
harvesters, when you're lookingat harvesters, you are looking
at hydraulics, because they'vegot massive hydraulic systems.
One of the things that I liketo do is actually dip the
hydraulic tank if it has beendestroyed.
(27:35):
But the last three, the units,were in such good condition I
actually had the side glass andI could say, okay, I know how
much hydraulic oil is in here.
Let's look for electricalshort-circuiting, arcing within
the electrical harness, etcetera.
Look at the engine, look at thefuel delivery systems and so on
(27:58):
, but if the harvester doestotally burn, then you're going
to have a difficult job.
Doing it More challenging yeah,yeah, absolutely.
I mean, if you think about this, a pair of truck tyres has a
peak release rate of between 900to 1,000 kilowatts of energy.
(28:22):
Nobody's actually burned a bigharvester tyre to set up what
the heat release rate is.
I'd love that to be done.
So what you're looking for,then, is okay, what systems can
you check?
Okay, we can check the fuel, wecan check hydraulics, we can,
(28:44):
to a degree, check electrical.
We can check cross bearings.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Yeah, if the bearings failed, that's going to be
fairly evident and do you lookat things like greases, within
that the appropriate grease isbeing used, that sort of stuff
too?
Would you look at sort of thelast maintenance and the type of
grease that was used, in casethey're using a different type
of grease?
Would that be something thatyou would be of interest If it
is in the service records?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
But the other thing that I should mention is for
vehicles.
I always ask for three things.
One purchase text invoice,proof of when they bought it.
Proof of the condition of themachine how many hours, how many
kilometres has it done?
If it's a road registerableunit.
(29:32):
Certificate of registration soI can look for vehicle
identification numbers andcompare that with the document
so we can say this is actuallythe vehicle.
I should be looking at Servicerecords minimum 12 months.
Okay, unfortunately, sometimesservice records are an exercise
(29:53):
book with handwritten notes.
Yeah, sure, you need to look atall those sort of situations to
understand what's been going onwith the vehicle and who's been
working on it.
For example, I've had a coupleof situations where trailers
(30:14):
have been worked on and brakeshave been replaced but they
forgot to put the bolt in thatholds the brakes together.
I think the classic was abeat-up new set of trailers that
I looked at in southern NewSouth Wales a year or two ago.
I did my usual walk around thetrailer.
(30:35):
So if it's a B-double set, soI'll walk around the A-trailer
and I'll just look at it, I'llwalk around the B-trailer and
I'll just look at it.
Then I photograph everythingsequentially.
Then I photograph everythingsequentially.
It's important to do what Icall the four points front side,
rear side.
Everything that I'm doing isdone to a set pattern, so I'm
(31:01):
going to do the four points.
I'll check the ID of thevehicle and so on.
The B trailer in this set.
When I did the walk around, Irealized that the brake drum had
completely split around itscircumference.
I thought, oh, this could be aproblem.
Yeah, and sure enough it was,and I finally got the service
(31:23):
records for the thing on thefirst of august, the year,
before one break was changed.
I thought what mechanic doesone break One?
Yeah, hello, I was sort ofthinking about that, but it
actually lasted until the 3rd ofMarch the following year before
(31:45):
it actually fell apart andultimately caused a fire.
Going back to the manufacturerof the axle set or the brake
systems is always important,because you're looking at it,
it's burnt and the big questionis what am I supposed to be
looking at?
(32:05):
Do I have all of the partssupposed to be looking at?
Do I have all the parts?
Sometimes it's fairly obvious,but other times you've got to go
back to the manufacturer.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
hope that the manufacturer will assist in your
inquiries and provide thetechnical information you need
yeah, do you often find with,like, if you're looking for
recovery against thatmanufacturer or against the
mechanics, that you'll then havea joint, is it very typical for
you to have a joint inspectionwith them or a technical expert
in that braking system?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Generally no.
When I get to a situation whereI have suspicions about
potential recovery, I documenteverything photographically and
all the rest of it, becausequite often the vehicle is
disposed of which should orshould not happen but what the
(32:58):
general situation with thevehicle situation is, we get
instructions, won't go off, oh,and meticulously photographing
everything off.
I am meticulously photographingeverything, photograph it,
start dismantling, et cetera, etcetera, and do it sequentially.
I might not use all thephotographs I take.
(33:20):
I've had situations where I'vehad 250, 300 photographs, write
up the report and if there is asituation where somebody's
apparently done something wrong,that's what we put in, work it
out, explain that in the report.
Invariably my report will windup an opposing expert peer
(33:43):
review.
So somebody for the other sidewill write an opinion that comes
back to me.
Then I write another opinion.
Yeah, sometimes it just goes onand on and on.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Sure, but we have had situations where we've had gone
in and the two sides have gonein and looked at the vehicle, if
it still exists.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Oh sure.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
I'm just thinking about.
Are you seeing?
Do you?
Are you getting involved inelectrical vehicles?
Now?
Is there a push towardselectrical vehicle trucks or
that kind of stuff?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
well, yeah, look, evs whether they're e-trucks or evs
standard.
You probably know yourself it'sthe talk of the fire
investigation community.
Yeah, I was slated to look atan e-truck that burnt down on
the 28th of November last yearin Melbourne and it was
(34:41):
interesting the way it workedout.
I was contacted by a colleaguesaying are you doing this or do
you know who insures it?
I just sent an email back andsaid no, I'm not doing it, but
it's only just happened.
It could be a week or twobefore an insurer has it done.
(35:01):
Sent that off.
The next day I got a call fromone of my insurance company
clients and they said we needyou in Melbourne now.
I said sorry, I can't gobecause I was about to start the
journey from Sydney to come uphere to Palm Cove and they said
(35:22):
oh, that's right, yeah, you'removing, anyway.
Then we discussed what couldhappen and the client left or
run off.
I then contacted the colleaguethat had been in touch with me
the day before by email and saidwell, I know who insures it, et
cetera, et cetera, and I can'tdo it because I'm relocating.
(35:45):
Long and the short is we werecoming up to Christmas, the
insurance company couldn't getanybody.
And they came back and said wewant you to do it, etc.
But that didn't happen.
And it didn't happen becausethe company that owned this
particular d truck were what wecall an aggregate insurer.
(36:06):
So they will say to aninsurance company we will cover
all losses up to a certainfinancial level.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
After that you will pay for it, and if they're below
the aggregate.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Then the insured control everything and their
first response was we don't wantan investigation and we're
going.
Really, I wonder why thecompany in question were the end
user of the product, not themanufacturer of the product.
Oh okay, the product inquestion has been questions
(36:43):
raised in areas and by peoplethat say hang on a minute.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
I think with any new emergence or technologies we're
going to see some issues aroundmanufacturers and then obviously
cheaper products being useddepends on where it's being
manufactured that sort of stuff.
So I think there's going to bea time period where we're going
to have I don't know.
I mean there seems to be anemphasis on EV fires and there's
more EV fires.
I mean there seems to be a lotmore ev fires in terms of
(37:12):
motorbikes and these deliverysort of scooter things in
domestic setting.
I don't think anyone's actuallygot a grip of whether it's
hysteria or whether it's a falsenarrative if there's more ev
fires and internal combustionengine fires, for example.
But again, of course, thenyou've got to look at the number
of EVs out there compared tothe number of ICE and do a
comparison there.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
That is actually a valid point.
Look, I'll be the first one tosay to anybody there are more
ICE vehicle fires than there areEV vehicle fires.
But the problem is with an EV.
It is such a spectacular event,the media leap on it with great
(37:57):
gusto and they make a call out.
In fact, only on this morning'snews I was watching the news
and they're talking about ahouse fire in a Brisbane suburb
and it was an e-scooter thatcaused the fire.
Yeah, I thought really, where'sthe proof?
(38:17):
Mass hysteria, I mean, look, Iwouldn't have an e-scooter or an
e-bot anywhere near the place.
I can tell you, here in farnorth Queensland e-scooters are
everywhere.
But I'm talking with peoplelike Meg Forbes.
I'm talking with the QueenslandAssociation of Fire
Investigators or Queensland Fireand Emergency Services.
(38:41):
All of the fire services inAustralia, I understand, have
had issues with e-bikes ande-scooters and thank goodness
they don't give me the look atthem.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yeah, I mean I've looked at a few actually and
it's been very obvious from theones I have looked at, mostly
from witness accounts or fromCCTV, that the e-bikes is the
actual sort of thermal runawayor damage that's caused it.
But I think EV has been alittle bit politicized.
I think some people are for itand some people are against it.
But yes, it's certainly we'veseen a couple of deaths in the
(39:14):
uk from e-bikes being charged incentral corridors and things
and people, routes of escapesthat have been prevented.
But I think that's no differentthan some of the other fires.
But I just think anything ev atthe moment is kind of a bit of
a hot topic, if you excuse a pun.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Oh yeah absolutely agree with you.
In fact, a question was raisedon the local Facebook thing
about EVs and I made a commentthey're really pushing for
battery storage systems forresidences.
Really pushing for batterystorage systems for residences.
I mean my house.
(39:51):
I've got 41 solar panels on myroof.
Yeah, I don't have a storagebattery.
Somebody said something aboutit and my comment was yeah, well
, if ever I get a storagebattery, it's not going to be
attached to the house.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
It'll be its own little brick thing a long while
away.
That's another topic which Isee quite a bit on is solar
panels, fires and bits andpieces on roofs and stuff.
So that's another topic foranother day, I think.
But yeah, you're right, we areseeing more and more solar and
battery storage systems and I'vehad a couple of jobs where
people have actually tried tomake their own storage battery
through cheap bought stuff salesthat they bought off of ebay
(40:31):
and things and then they wonderwhy there's a fire because
they're not electricians andthey're trying to sort of create
their own battery pack.
But yeah, strange.
Listen, bob, it's beenabsolutely fascinating talking
to you.
Unfortunately I try to keep theepisodes down to just about an
hour so we're gonna run out oftime.
Well, I could talk to you foranother hour.
Maybe we'll have you on again,but it's been absolutely
fascinating today.
(40:51):
Is there anything else that youwanted to sort of say that we
haven't always given the guestsan opportunity just to get
anything they wanted to, anykind of message across or
anything that you think isparticularly relevant to what
we've been discussing today?
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Well, look about.
The only thing that I've foundrecently is four-wheel drives
with auxiliary battery packs inthem, and they've been causing
issues due to 12-volt DC-DCcharge controllers and so on.
But usually when I see issueswith these, it is the
(41:32):
installation of the dual batterysystem, where people are using
blade fuses rather than minifuses.
And oh, it's got a fuse in it.
Yeah, but is that fusethermally stable?
Can it handle the pressures?
And, believe me, there are alot of four-wheel drives up in
this part of the world.
(41:52):
In fact, I've got one sittingin the driveway, which is the
new truck yeah, it's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
I'm looking forward to seeing some pictures on that.
But do you mean like a batterystorage, so to converters to
charge battery packs forconstruction, that kind of stuff
or for, like, leisure batteries, that sort of thing?
Speaker 2 (42:09):
no, what normally do, because there's such a large
four-wheel drive community herein far north Queensland.
You get people that want to goout camping and they've got
photovoltaic cells attached tocaravans and they need to
recharge batteries.
So they're fitting dual batterysystems into the vehicles and
(42:35):
doing it very, very badly.
I'm sort of resistant for themoment, but we have to cover
such large distances.
But a lot of the four-wheeldrives up here are dual cab.
They've got a tray back on themor they've got a tray back with
covers over them so they'llload up all the camping gear and
(42:57):
put a boat on top of it allwherever and drag the caravan
and away they go sure, great,all right.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Well, thanks ever so much.
I really appreciate your time.
I appreciate all the gueststhat come on, but thank you very
much.
I think it's evening time foryou.
It's morning here and again,just thank you very much for
coming on, really appreciate it,thank you mike greatly
appreciated for the invite.
No problem at all.
Thanks very much, cheers.
Thank you, bye.
Hey, thank you for listening tocsi on fire.
(43:27):
Please don't forget to like,subscribe and suggest future
topics on our web page.
Remember factor non-verbal.
Take care, good hunting.
I hope to see you on the nextone.
Cheers.
Hi, welcome to CSI on Fire, the podcast that takes
you behind the scenes of thefire investigation community.
I'm your host, mike Moulden,and episode after episode, we'll
attempt to excavate the oftendifficult but always fascinating
world of the fire investigator.
Welcome to CSI on Fire, yourfire investigation podcast.
(00:27):
This is episode 21.
I've got a fantastic guest ontoday all the way from down and
under in Australia.
I've got Bob McKay.
Bob, welcome to the podcast,thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Thank you, Mike.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
As I do with all guests.
Bob, let's go through yourhistory.
Let's go through how you'veended up on the podcast today.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Right?
Well, that's reasonably simple.
43 and a half years ago Istarted working as a factual
insurance investigatorinvestigating workers
compensation claims and so on,and as the years progressed I
got emboldened various otherbasically any insurance claim
you could make.
I was at some stageinvestigated.
About 10 years after that Ithrew in teaching investigation
(01:16):
at one of our technical collegesin sydney where they now
require all privateinvestigators to complete a TAFE
course.
So I taught that for 13 yearsas well as working in the
industry.
And in the early 2000s I had sixfactual investigators working
(01:37):
for me, predominantly doingmotor vehicle at that stage.
So we were looking at motorvehicle theft, fire, not in a
forensic sense, I might addcollision work and so on.
And then different thingsstarted to happen within the
insurance spectrum, particularlyin Sydney.
(01:59):
So I wound the team back to aone-man operation and spent a
couple of years investigatingdust disease work such as
mesothelioma silicosis and so on.
That was going really welluntil the New South Wales
government made it a no-faultinjury, which is great for those
(02:23):
poor devils that have theproblems.
So I went back to essentiallymotor vehicle work and did some
of that and had two maininsurers here in Australia, both
(02:48):
of which predominantly insuredheavy vehicles.
So we're talking rigid trucks,semi-trailers, and out here, of
course, we run a lot of dualtrailer situations, such as we
call them B-doubles, and in factwe've started to move in the
(03:09):
last year or so to runningB-triple.
So we've got one prime mover,three trailers and basically 85
metres of truck.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
So that's like a road train.
Is that what we would call aroad train?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, you would, but the coupling's different.
And that's why.
Because what you've got is yourprime mover.
Then you've got your A trailerwith a turntable at the back of
it, then the B trailer fits ontothat, and if it's a B triple,
the B trailer also has aturntable or fifth wheel, and so
(03:45):
on.
Road trains are a slightlydifferent connection.
I won't get into thetechnicalities of it, but road
trains can be up to anywherefrom three to five trailers long
, depending on where they'regoing.
They certainly do present theirown unique set of problems.
So we did that and it be a bitover 10 years ago one of my
(04:11):
heavy vehicle clients came to meand said we want you to
investigate this particular fire.
We've already had a.
They use the term expert.
Look at it.
The expert deemed that it wasincendiary fire.
I thought it was odd.
I said well, okay, what do youwant me to do?
And basically it was go andinterview our insured and
(04:36):
essentially prepare a brief ofevidence for the police, that's,
if the insured wanted tocontinue on with that particular
claim.
When I read the expert opinionreport, I was a little horrified
, to say the least.
I had plenty of baselessaccusations, comments, no
(04:58):
physical evidence at all and Iwas quite worried about it.
So ultimately I went andinterviewed our insured and all
the people involved drivers,witnesses and so on and I was
then really concerned.
So I went back to ourinstructive insurance company
(05:20):
and said look, I've got someconcerns about what your
expert's now saying.
I would like the opportunity togo and look at this particular
vehicle for myself so I canclear a few thoughts in my own
mind Because of the long-termrelationship.
They said, yeah, go for it, andwe did.
(05:41):
That resulted in me essentiallywriting a report that basically
explained to the insurancecompany why their expert was
wrong and gave them the evidence, how the evidence stacked out,
how the interplay of evidencecame about, and also told them
(06:01):
why the truck burned down.
Yeah, in this case it was a cabover engine configuration
vehicle and essentially theunder cabin insulation after
several years of road run andgrease and all of the other
dropped onto a hot turbochargerafter working all day and slow
(06:24):
smoldering fire Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
And is that when you kind of went on your own?
Is that when you set up McKayInvestigations?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
No, mckay Investigations was essentially a
factual side of it.
So we were doing still motorvehicle theft and bits and
pieces.
But then I launched McKayForensic Investigations, which
does nothing but vehicle fires.
But from that first matterwhere the expert got it so wrong
(06:55):
, I was not particularly kind tothe person who will remain
nameless.
But then it occurred to me thatwhile I had a reasonable amount
of outfire, I had no formalfire training.
So I went and did that.
I started out with theInternational Association of
Arson Investigators and sat theexam for fire investigation
(07:19):
technician.
I then qualified or got thespecialist credentials for motor
vehicle fire and after that Iactually attended Charles Sturt
University and got a graduatecertificate in fire
investigation.
Mind you, that was after Irewrote the diploma for motor
(07:42):
vehicles, their diploma formotor vehicles, and ultimately
went on to be approved to sitfor the Certified Fire
Investigation examination, whichI did.
And as time has progressed, allwe're doing is motor vehicle
fires and, as you said at thebeginning, a lot of that work is
(08:05):
in heavy vehicles.
But for us it can be ordinaryroad cars, passenger vehicles,
four-wheel drives and the like,right up to heavy mining
equipment.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Okay.
So pretty much everything inthe family Kind of agricultural
stuff.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
In fact, only recently I had atrip to Mount Isa which was
going to be our base ofoperations for a combine
harvester fire.
Okay, and just to get there wasan interesting exercise.
I flew into Mount Isa on theMonday evening.
(08:47):
On the Tuesday morning I droveback to the airport.
I was picked up by a lightaircraft and flown 250 to 300
kilometres to the northeast ofMount Isa, got out of the light
aircraft east of Mount Isa, gotout of the light aircraft into a
helicopter.
Another 45-minute flight to thecombine harvester.
(09:11):
And when we landed andbasically tossed me out of the
helicopter, it was how long areyou going to be about this much
time?
And I said, okay, we'll comeback at this time, but if you
finish early, call us on yoursatellite telephone.
Okay, we'll come back at thistime, but if you finish early
calls on your satellitetelephone we'll come and get you
.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
And that's exactly what we did I think that's the
thing to say.
Isn't it about australia?
Is, I guess if you're doingthese heavy vehicles and these
agricultural stuff, it's such avast country, you're the first
ever fire investigator on theprivate side anyway that I know
is caught a helicopter to a firescene.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
So well, actually that's the second time I've done
that.
I did it in 2016 and in fact,if you had a look at my win page
, you've got this truck madlyblazing away.
That was actually taken by thedriver five or ten minutes after
he got out of the cabin, butthat truck was 185 kilometres in
(10:11):
due east of Broome in WesternAustralia and I did actually get
a helicopter there.
But just to add to what yousaid about the size of Australia
, the property that thisparticular harvester was on is
actually 3,821 square kilometresin size Wow, which is, yeah,
(10:35):
really big.
Actually records the GPSlocations and there have been a
few times when I've actually hadto tell the insurance company
what the GPS location is so theycan go and find it Gotcha
Fascinating.
And, of course, living up herein tropical North Queensland,
(11:00):
we're miles from anything really.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
For example, there's 1,415 kilometers to the south of
where I am yeah, rapid responseis gonna sometimes take a day
or two just together well,indeed, in fact, only this
coming week, on wednesday, I'mflying from Cairns to Wagga,
(11:25):
wagga, which is in southwesternNew South Wales.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
So that's a flight from Cairns to Sydney getting to
a smaller aeroplane flight,sydney to Wagga.
I can't get return flights thenext day, and this is for a
prime move of fire.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
I've got the Thursdayursday all day and
morning and on friday I start myreturn journey back to cairns
and she'll be back here at aboutone o'clock in the afternoon I
guess with obviously, if you'retraveling these distances and
things, I know that we'retalking about your truck, maybe
a little bit because I'm inadmiration of your new truck but
(12:06):
you're going to have to makesure you've got your kit with
you because if you're gettinghelicoptered in and helicoptered
out, you can't just pop to thetruck and get another piece of
kit.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
No, no, indeed.
For the fly-on, fly-out work wehave what we call the go kit,
and the go kit is essentially apull-along suitcase on steroids
when I found the the dramas inflying into places.
So the most like this largestsingle piece of luggage I can
(12:38):
carry is 32 kilo, and this casecan't go up to 32 kilo.
But you need to be veryselective as to what you put
into it.
There are other limitations.
Working in australia earlier inthe year, for example, I had to
go to a place called tenantcreek, which is almost smack in
(13:04):
the middle of the NorthernTerritory, so I had to fly to
Darwin.
The day before the next day itwas catch the 8 o'clock flight
to Tennant Creek.
Fortunately the truck I waslooking at was already in a
workshop, because the carry-onluggage for this flight was four
(13:25):
kilograms.
My camera with one lens and asmall flash gun weighs two kilo
and it causes all sorts ofissues.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
It causes some issues I picked up on the mining side
of things.
I know Australia's got amassive amount of mining.
Have you ever had a fire downin the mine and you've had to go
down into the mine?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
I've had one.
Well, it was thought to be anunderground logger, or what they
refer to as a bogger, and Iessentially got called in the
same day it happened.
Okay, I couldn't get into themine site on that day because we
(14:09):
had the state mine inspectorsthere.
They take charge of everything.
We finally did get in, with theinspectors watching everything
you do with their ownindependent investigator, which
was interesting because I knowthe person quite well.
Essentially, it turned out thatit wasn't the vehicle, okay,
(14:30):
gotcha.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
It's interesting to hear that even in your kind of
specialist area, in a country asvast as Australia, you can bump
into other fire investigatorsthat you've worked with or that
you know already.
So it's a small world, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Well, it is.
I mean, because I've got theNew South Wales Association of
Fire Investigators T-shirt on,because I am a member, even
though I know a lot of, in factprobably most of the fire
investigators of any credibilityin the country because of my
(15:05):
exposure to the variousassociations.
I think Mick Forbes, in hissituation, explained about the
association set up here inAustralia.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
I think you're the former secretary, aren't you?
Speaker 2 (15:18):
I'm still the secretary until August.
Oh okay, unfortunately we get alot of people in the industry
when I say in the industry, inthe investigation industry that
hold themselves out to be fireinvestigators and they have no
qualifications.
(15:38):
And unfortunately, insurancecompanies don't seem to
understand how important it isto have somebody that's
qualified at fire looking at afire.
I've had situations where we'vehad people with degrees in
mechanical engineering lookingat a fire and have no idea what
(16:02):
they're looking at.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
The background of fire investigators that I come
across is so diverse.
Some are ex-firefighters whohave then gone into fire
investigation on the public side, or police CSIs.
But, like you say, you've gotchemists, you've got there's
biologists, even guys zoology,and you think you can qualify.
I don't think there's anyrestriction.
But you have to be very carefulon what you're purporting to be
(16:26):
able to do.
I don't think you can be amaster of all trades, if that
makes sense.
You've got to try andspecialise and make sure that
you don't step outside your box.
I get like that with electrical.
I don't know enough.
I know enough to say, ok, Ithink this fire is caused by
electrics resistance orsomething like that, but then,
when it gets down to the nittygritty, just call in an
electrical engineer to actuallyoffer expertise and expert
(16:47):
opinion on that.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
so yeah, it's really important to stick inside your
lane, I think yeah in fact, I'vehad situations myself where
I've gone in, I've looked at afire and I'm back and said this
is what it appears to be.
I can't make a call on it, soI'm going to say it's
undetermined, but suggest thatyou bring in whether it's a
(17:12):
forensic, mechanical engineer,an electrical engineer, somebody
with the qualifications, orI'll call it and suggest that
this is the way we should go tofirm up our evidence,
particularly if we're going tolook at something in the line of
recovery, and a lot of what Ido is related to potential
(17:34):
recovery situations.
For example, the vehicle I'mlooking at on Thursday recently
had its turbocharger replacedGotcha.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
That kind of brings me on to the next phase, if you
like, if that's all right, bob,in terms of causes, in terms of
heavy vehicles, agriculturalequipment, can we just go
through some of the typicalcauses, some of the things that
you're going to look at?
You mentioned there, you know,obviously some sort of
maintenance or change, changingdevice or something, but can we
just go through some of your,from your experiences, what sort
(18:05):
of things that if you're goingto get into?
Okay?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
the first thing I like to do is to establish what
the vehicle was doing at thetime of the fire igniting.
If it's parked well, okay,we're going to be looking at
incendiary, we're going to belooking at potential electrical,
but of course that then comesdown to how long has it been
(18:30):
parked.
Has it been parked for 10minutes?
Could we have a hot surfaceignition or similar, or is it
going to be well, it was parkedthere for three days and I've
gone up in flames.
That's easy.
But if the thing's moving, weneed to consider and in no
particular order, but electricalsystems.
(18:53):
So have we had electricalconductors abrading and going to
a short circuit or an arc?
We need to look at fueldelivery systems.
Has there been a failure ofthat fuel delivery system?
We had one particular engineout here that went through five
recalls and every time they didthe recall, all of a sudden you
(19:18):
see them coming back again.
But that's because the enginewas pumping diesel at 18,854 PSI
and when a particular vibrationdampener, a P-clip, broke.
Then you lost mechanicalsealant, the head rail, and all
of a sudden you've got a dieselatomising at eight and a half
(19:41):
tonne of pressure.
The fuel delivery systems hasbeen a mechanical failure.
I did one down in Adelaide acouple of years ago.
I was talking to the driver.
I said well, tell me whathappened.
He said I'm driving down thishill and all of a sudden there
was a big bang and the truck'son fire.
(20:02):
So I went down.
It was a Cabo Virgin vehicle.
I said to the guys look, Imight need you to get your heavy
tow unit around here to dragthis cabin forward if I can't
find the course.
And that's what we did.
And when we got the cab forward, I know why the fire happened
(20:23):
because he was in the wrong gearand he blew the side out of the
engine.
We've had the electric ones, asI've said.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
What about friction on the brake linings and that
kind of stuff?
I've had one of them.
I call it the deadly trio.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Wheel bearings, brakes, tyres Gotcha, you're
wheel bearing fast.
Yep, you're going to wind upwith a fault.
The brake drag you get brakedrag or a brake locking on.
I've even had brake actuationchambers actually break off the
(20:59):
axle and just hang around on thepush rod until it compromises
one of the airlines and you geta partial application of what we
call the maxi brake or thesafety brake, and that's
partially or not entirely, andcreates enough friction for the
(21:20):
whole braking system to go upand fly, usually after the tyre
catches fire.
And of course then there's tyrefires and they are really really
hard to work on because most ofwhat you're looking for no
longer exists Exists, yeah, sure, in fact, in the B-doubles and
the road trains it is quitecommon to get what we
(21:44):
collectively call a wheel infire, so bearings, brakes, tyres
in the back trailer, so the Btrailer.
That's a long way from wherethe driver is and he can get a
tyre fire and won't even knowabout it until somebody calls
him on the UHF radio and says no, mate, you're on fire.
(22:06):
Sure, road trains are also thethird trailer.
In a road train it can moveacross the traffic light and run
off the edge of the road andcause damage.
In fact, I did a car carryingtrailer in a road train a few
(22:27):
years ago up in Alice Springs,car carrying trailer, eight cars
on board and we're looking atit.
And car carrying trailers arereally interesting because you
need to know are they brand newor are they secondhand?
If they're secondhand, thencould the fire be caused by one
(22:50):
of the cars through electricalfault and so on.
You look at all of those buteffectively, from a vehicle
investigation, there are systemsand you, as best you can, try
to work through those systemsand say, well, okay, was it fuel
, is the turbocharger working,are there any issues with fuel
(23:17):
lines, et cetera.
The other one that I shouldthrow into is hydraulics.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Sort of abraded hoses , that sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, sort of the same thing Abrasion of hoses,
failure of hoses, that sort ofthing.
Yeah, so the same thingabrasion of hoses, failure of
hoses.
And that comes not only intoroad transport, such as tip
trucks, because they've gothydraulics, but you've also got
car carrying trails, where thethe floors are moved by
hydraulics, et cetera, and so on.
(23:49):
Another one that can be anissue is when diesel, in
particular filters or DPFs go toregeneration burns.
I've had a number of vehicleswhere they're small, rigid pan
technicans, they're doingstop-start work, the DPF becomes
(24:10):
cloggedged, it goes to do aregen burn and the diesel winds
up in places where it shouldn'tgotcha and what about
agricultural stuff?
Speaker 1 (24:20):
you know your term, your harvesters, that sort of
stuff, anything in particularfor that?
We don't see much of that.
If I'm honest, I've neverworked on anything like that,
but is there anything specificto those things?
Speaker 2 (24:30):
recently, in fact, the mount oser trip.
It was one particular brand ofharvester, we could also call
them headers.
It actually started in mid 2022.
I had a job south western newsouth wales went down, met the
owner at his gate and he said oh, it's down in the machine shed.
(24:53):
Just drive around the back ofthe house, you'll see it there,
I'll be down in a couple ofminutes.
So I drove in.
I thought, okay, where is it?
And he arrived and I saidwhere's the hen?
He said you stand inside it.
I said okay, now show me wherethe fire was.
Ernie showed me and I thoughthang on a minute.
I said what were you harvesting?
(25:16):
Entirely, we looked at relativehumidity, temperature, etc.
Etc.
Etc.
And I came away thinking thislooks like static electricity.
It really does look like it andstatic electricity has been a
bit of a myth.
In january last year I sawanother one of these harvesters
(25:41):
absolutely identical, same crop,everything.
The only difference betweenthat one or the Ehrlich first
two, the one out of Mount Isathat was harvesting chickpea,
but the fire damage wasabsolutely identical.
(26:01):
And I'm thinking it, I'm seeingthis and I know where it's
happening, because down on theside of the rotor cage.
They've got five.
And I know where it's happeningbecause down on the side of the
rotor cage they've got five ABSresin gates.
These lock in so you can takethem off.
Look at the rotor and think,okay, fine, but when they're
(26:24):
closed you've got cyclonic windand vegetation debris screaming
past, hitting these things.
I'm thinking, and there's oneparticular point they're covered
, bearing over on the inside ofthe header.
It's angular and I'll guaranteethat's our static electricity
(26:44):
discharge point.
It's doing the same thing burnsthe number five door right hand
rear corner, which is runningright beside the main engine
harness that runs down theoutside of it.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
I guess, if you're seeing trends, I guess because
you're quite niche, you would bethe one who would see these
kinds of things on a consistentbasis, whereas if I was
instructed and I would be.
But if I was instructed I mightsee one, I might see one in
five years or ten years, whereasif you're seeing them and
you're seeing the same thing,then obviously there's something
not quite right there.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Well, I would think so, but sometimes with the
harvesters, when you're lookingat harvesters, you are looking
at hydraulics, because they'vegot massive hydraulic systems.
One of the things that I liketo do is actually dip the
hydraulic tank if it has beendestroyed.
(27:35):
But the last three, the units,were in such good condition I
actually had the side glass andI could say, okay, I know how
much hydraulic oil is in here.
Let's look for electricalshort-circuiting, arcing within
the electrical harness, etcetera.
Look at the engine, look at thefuel delivery systems and so on
(27:58):
, but if the harvester doestotally burn, then you're going
to have a difficult job.
Doing it More challenging yeah,yeah, absolutely.
I mean, if you think about this, a pair of truck tyres has a
peak release rate of between 900to 1,000 kilowatts of energy.
(28:22):
Nobody's actually burned a bigharvester tyre to set up what
the heat release rate is.
I'd love that to be done.
So what you're looking for,then, is okay, what systems can
you check?
Okay, we can check the fuel, wecan check hydraulics, we can,
(28:44):
to a degree, check electrical.
We can check cross bearings.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Yeah, if the bearings failed, that's going to be
fairly evident and do you lookat things like greases, within
that the appropriate grease isbeing used, that sort of stuff
too?
Would you look at sort of thelast maintenance and the type of
grease that was used, in casethey're using a different type
of grease?
Would that be something thatyou would be of interest If it
is in the service records?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
But the other thing that I should mention is for
vehicles.
I always ask for three things.
One purchase text invoice,proof of when they bought it.
Proof of the condition of themachine how many hours, how many
kilometres has it done?
If it's a road registerableunit.
(29:32):
Certificate of registration soI can look for vehicle
identification numbers andcompare that with the document
so we can say this is actuallythe vehicle.
I should be looking at Servicerecords minimum 12 months.
Okay, unfortunately, sometimesservice records are an exercise
(29:53):
book with handwritten notes.
Yeah, sure, you need to look atall those sort of situations to
understand what's been going onwith the vehicle and who's been
working on it.
For example, I've had a coupleof situations where trailers
(30:14):
have been worked on and brakeshave been replaced but they
forgot to put the bolt in thatholds the brakes together.
I think the classic was abeat-up new set of trailers that
I looked at in southern NewSouth Wales a year or two ago.
I did my usual walk around thetrailer.
(30:35):
So if it's a B-double set, soI'll walk around the A-trailer
and I'll just look at it, I'llwalk around the B-trailer and
I'll just look at it.
Then I photograph everythingsequentially.
Then I photograph everythingsequentially.
It's important to do what Icall the four points front side,
rear side.
Everything that I'm doing isdone to a set pattern, so I'm
(31:01):
going to do the four points.
I'll check the ID of thevehicle and so on.
The B trailer in this set.
When I did the walk around, Irealized that the brake drum had
completely split around itscircumference.
I thought, oh, this could be aproblem.
Yeah, and sure enough it was,and I finally got the service
(31:23):
records for the thing on thefirst of august, the year,
before one break was changed.
I thought what mechanic doesone break One?
Yeah, hello, I was sort ofthinking about that, but it
actually lasted until the 3rd ofMarch the following year before
(31:45):
it actually fell apart andultimately caused a fire.
Going back to the manufacturerof the axle set or the brake
systems is always important,because you're looking at it,
it's burnt and the big questionis what am I supposed to be
looking at?
(32:05):
Do I have all of the partssupposed to be looking at?
Do I have all the parts?
Sometimes it's fairly obvious,but other times you've got to go
back to the manufacturer.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
hope that the manufacturer will assist in your
inquiries and provide thetechnical information you need
yeah, do you often find with,like, if you're looking for
recovery against thatmanufacturer or against the
mechanics, that you'll then havea joint, is it very typical for
you to have a joint inspectionwith them or a technical expert
in that braking system?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Generally no.
When I get to a situation whereI have suspicions about
potential recovery, I documenteverything photographically and
all the rest of it, becausequite often the vehicle is
disposed of which should orshould not happen but what the
(32:58):
general situation with thevehicle situation is, we get
instructions, won't go off, oh,and meticulously photographing
everything off.
I am meticulously photographingeverything, photograph it,
start dismantling, et cetera, etcetera, and do it sequentially.
I might not use all thephotographs I take.
(33:20):
I've had situations where I'vehad 250, 300 photographs, write
up the report and if there is asituation where somebody's
apparently done something wrong,that's what we put in, work it
out, explain that in the report.
Invariably my report will windup an opposing expert peer
(33:43):
review.
So somebody for the other sidewill write an opinion that comes
back to me.
Then I write another opinion.
Yeah, sometimes it just goes onand on and on.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Sure, but we have had situations where we've had gone
in and the two sides have gonein and looked at the vehicle, if
it still exists.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Oh sure.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
I'm just thinking about.
Are you seeing?
Do you?
Are you getting involved inelectrical vehicles?
Now?
Is there a push towardselectrical vehicle trucks or
that kind of stuff?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
well, yeah, look, evs whether they're e-trucks or evs
standard.
You probably know yourself it'sthe talk of the fire
investigation community.
Yeah, I was slated to look atan e-truck that burnt down on
the 28th of November last yearin Melbourne and it was
(34:41):
interesting the way it workedout.
I was contacted by a colleaguesaying are you doing this or do
you know who insures it?
I just sent an email back andsaid no, I'm not doing it, but
it's only just happened.
It could be a week or twobefore an insurer has it done.
(35:01):
Sent that off.
The next day I got a call fromone of my insurance company
clients and they said we needyou in Melbourne now.
I said sorry, I can't gobecause I was about to start the
journey from Sydney to come uphere to Palm Cove and they said
(35:22):
oh, that's right, yeah, you'removing, anyway.
Then we discussed what couldhappen and the client left or
run off.
I then contacted the colleaguethat had been in touch with me
the day before by email and saidwell, I know who insures it, et
cetera, et cetera, and I can'tdo it because I'm relocating.
(35:45):
Long and the short is we werecoming up to Christmas, the
insurance company couldn't getanybody.
And they came back and said wewant you to do it, etc.
But that didn't happen.
And it didn't happen becausethe company that owned this
particular d truck were what wecall an aggregate insurer.
(36:06):
So they will say to aninsurance company we will cover
all losses up to a certainfinancial level.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
After that you will pay for it, and if they're below
the aggregate.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Then the insured control everything and their
first response was we don't wantan investigation and we're
going.
Really, I wonder why thecompany in question were the end
user of the product, not themanufacturer of the product.
Oh okay, the product inquestion has been questions
(36:43):
raised in areas and by peoplethat say hang on a minute.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
I think with any new emergence or technologies we're
going to see some issues aroundmanufacturers and then obviously
cheaper products being useddepends on where it's being
manufactured that sort of stuff.
So I think there's going to bea time period where we're going
to have I don't know.
I mean there seems to be anemphasis on EV fires and there's
more EV fires.
I mean there seems to be a lotmore ev fires in terms of
(37:12):
motorbikes and these deliverysort of scooter things in
domestic setting.
I don't think anyone's actuallygot a grip of whether it's
hysteria or whether it's a falsenarrative if there's more ev
fires and internal combustionengine fires, for example.
But again, of course, thenyou've got to look at the number
of EVs out there compared tothe number of ICE and do a
comparison there.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
That is actually a valid point.
Look, I'll be the first one tosay to anybody there are more
ICE vehicle fires than there areEV vehicle fires.
But the problem is with an EV.
It is such a spectacular event,the media leap on it with great
(37:57):
gusto and they make a call out.
In fact, only on this morning'snews I was watching the news
and they're talking about ahouse fire in a Brisbane suburb
and it was an e-scooter thatcaused the fire.
Yeah, I thought really, where'sthe proof?
(38:17):
Mass hysteria, I mean, look, Iwouldn't have an e-scooter or an
e-bot anywhere near the place.
I can tell you, here in farnorth Queensland e-scooters are
everywhere.
But I'm talking with peoplelike Meg Forbes.
I'm talking with the QueenslandAssociation of Fire
Investigators or Queensland Fireand Emergency Services.
(38:41):
All of the fire services inAustralia, I understand, have
had issues with e-bikes ande-scooters and thank goodness
they don't give me the look atthem.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yeah, I mean I've looked at a few actually and
it's been very obvious from theones I have looked at, mostly
from witness accounts or fromCCTV, that the e-bikes is the
actual sort of thermal runawayor damage that's caused it.
But I think EV has been alittle bit politicized.
I think some people are for itand some people are against it.
But yes, it's certainly we'veseen a couple of deaths in the
(39:14):
uk from e-bikes being charged incentral corridors and things
and people, routes of escapesthat have been prevented.
But I think that's no differentthan some of the other fires.
But I just think anything ev atthe moment is kind of a bit of
a hot topic, if you excuse a pun.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Oh yeah absolutely agree with you.
In fact, a question was raisedon the local Facebook thing
about EVs and I made a commentthey're really pushing for
battery storage systems forresidences.
Really pushing for batterystorage systems for residences.
I mean my house.
(39:51):
I've got 41 solar panels on myroof.
Yeah, I don't have a storagebattery.
Somebody said something aboutit and my comment was yeah, well
, if ever I get a storagebattery, it's not going to be
attached to the house.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
It'll be its own little brick thing a long while
away.
That's another topic which Isee quite a bit on is solar
panels, fires and bits andpieces on roofs and stuff.
So that's another topic foranother day, I think.
But yeah, you're right, we areseeing more and more solar and
battery storage systems and I'vehad a couple of jobs where
people have actually tried tomake their own storage battery
through cheap bought stuff salesthat they bought off of ebay
(40:31):
and things and then they wonderwhy there's a fire because
they're not electricians andthey're trying to sort of create
their own battery pack.
But yeah, strange.
Listen, bob, it's beenabsolutely fascinating talking
to you.
Unfortunately I try to keep theepisodes down to just about an
hour so we're gonna run out oftime.
Well, I could talk to you foranother hour.
Maybe we'll have you on again,but it's been absolutely
fascinating today.
(40:51):
Is there anything else that youwanted to sort of say that we
haven't always given the guestsan opportunity just to get
anything they wanted to, anykind of message across or
anything that you think isparticularly relevant to what
we've been discussing today?
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Well, look about.
The only thing that I've foundrecently is four-wheel drives
with auxiliary battery packs inthem, and they've been causing
issues due to 12-volt DC-DCcharge controllers and so on.
But usually when I see issueswith these, it is the
(41:32):
installation of the dual batterysystem, where people are using
blade fuses rather than minifuses.
And oh, it's got a fuse in it.
Yeah, but is that fusethermally stable?
Can it handle the pressures?
And, believe me, there are alot of four-wheel drives up in
this part of the world.
(41:52):
In fact, I've got one sittingin the driveway, which is the
new truck yeah, it's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
I'm looking forward to seeing some pictures on that.
But do you mean like a batterystorage, so to converters to
charge battery packs forconstruction, that kind of stuff
or for, like, leisure batteries, that sort of thing?
Speaker 2 (42:09):
no, what normally do, because there's such a large
four-wheel drive community herein far north Queensland.
You get people that want to goout camping and they've got
photovoltaic cells attached tocaravans and they need to
recharge batteries.
So they're fitting dual batterysystems into the vehicles and
(42:35):
doing it very, very badly.
I'm sort of resistant for themoment, but we have to cover
such large distances.
But a lot of the four-wheeldrives up here are dual cab.
They've got a tray back on themor they've got a tray back with
covers over them so they'llload up all the camping gear and
(42:57):
put a boat on top of it allwherever and drag the caravan
and away they go sure, great,all right.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Well, thanks ever so much.
I really appreciate your time.
I appreciate all the gueststhat come on, but thank you very
much.
I think it's evening time foryou.
It's morning here and again,just thank you very much for
coming on, really appreciate it,thank you mike greatly
appreciated for the invite.
No problem at all.
Thanks very much, cheers.
Thank you, bye.
Hey, thank you for listening tocsi on fire.
(43:27):
Please don't forget to like,subscribe and suggest future
topics on our web page.
Remember factor non-verbal.
Take care, good hunting.
I hope to see you on the nextone.
Cheers.
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