November 6, 2024 • 39 mins
Dive into the complex and often overlooked topic of suicide by self-immolation and suicides as James discusses his research and findings from the West Midlands Fire Service and his M.Sc.
Exploring patterns and potential indicators, James provides a data-driven analysis aimed at assisting fire investigators and coroners.
This episode also sheds light on the importance of controlled burns in professional development and the invaluable lessons they provide in understanding fire behavior. Join us for a comprehensive exploration of the diverse facets of fire investigation and the continuous pursuit of knowledge in this critical field.
James shares how his relentless pursuit of knowledge and passion for the field has made him a respected figure in fire investigation, highlighting the essential role of mentorship and continuous learning.
James offers firsthand insights into how collaboration and the sharing of effective practices across sectors can enhance investigative outcomes, emphasizing the importance of interdisciplinary skills, especially when it comes to combining forensic investigation and electrical expertise.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, welcome to CSI on Fire, the podcast that takes
you behind the scenes of thefire investigation community.
I'm your host, mike Moulden,and episode after episode, we'll
attempt to excavate the oftendifficult but always fascinating
world of the fire investigator.
Okay, so welcome to CSI on Fire.
(00:26):
Fire Investigation Podcast.
This is episode 29, and todayI've got James Holden on.
Thanks for coming on thepodcast, james, you're welcome.
Thanks for having me.
Are we going to refer to yournickname as Noddy or are we
going to stay away from that?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I don't mind, mate.
I'll be honest Outside the fireservice.
No one calls me Noddy In thefire service.
No one calls me noddy in thefire service world.
It's noddy because if I sayJames, people know who's that.
You know me well enough to callme noddy.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
That's fine all right , thanks, mate.
I appreciate you allowing me todo that, but I'll call you
James.
Anyway, be more professional.
Try and be more professionaltoday.
So, mate, you know the formatof the podcast.
Just start us away how you'vegot here today.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Take us through your background how you got into fire
investigation okay, I'll tryand keep it brief, but I suppose
it goes back to me wanting tobe in the fire service from I'll
be honest a kid I grew upwanting to be a firefighter I
knew quite early on I was one ofthose kids that thought, yeah,
I'd like to be in the fireservice.
My dad was in the police for 42odd years and I knew I didn't
want to be in an office or dosomething what I would regard as
(01:25):
mundane.
So I worked towards that, wentthrough school and then when I
reached 18, I wasn't able toapply because where I lived West
Midlands were not recruiting.
So I thought what am I going todo now?
So I lived in Solihull in theWest Midlands, and I basically
needed a job, because I didn'twant to go to university either.
I just wanted to be in the fireservice.
So I was treading water really.
So I joined Land Rover Solihull, started on an electrical
(01:48):
apprenticeship and, being honest, hated every single minute of
it and just was longing to leave.
So I did that for a while,which taught me a valuable
lesson actually don't ever do ajob that you hate, because I did
.
You can pay me millions, but ifI hate it, it's not worth it
anyway.
So I did that for 18 months andI was 19, I think I was when
West Midlands finally opened uptheir recruitment and went for
(02:10):
it.
Long story short, got in firsttime thankfully I was 20.
So I joined West Midlands whenI was 20.
Back in 1998 I was still livingat home, got sent to my first
station, coventry at canley, dida few years there, got promoted
and then really fi became athing.
I think probably around 2001 ortwo went to a fatal fire might
(02:34):
have been my first actually, butI remember distinctly that job.
The fire investigator came outmight be mark mccabe, who
perhaps some of your listenersmight know quite well through
wolverhampton university.
I think he's still practicing,but anyway I think it was Mark
came out and I was just kind ofgrabbed by what he was doing.
I'm thinking that's reallyinteresting and I asked my boss
can I just sit on the shoulderof the FIA please?
(02:55):
I'd like to see what they'redoing.
And that was me hook really.
So from then onwards I wentthrough promotion, got through
leading firefighter sub-officer,which then became crew
commander, watch commander, butduring my early career any
opportunity I could get I wouldgo up to what is now closed, but
the old A1 central fire stationin Birmingham, which is where
(03:17):
fire investigation used to bebased when I joined, and I would
spend as much time as I couldup there shadowing the FIs.
Back then we had plenty ofpeople on fire stations, which
is a bit different now, but Iwas able to get there quite a
lot and I gained a lot ofexperience by just riding along
and shadowing what they weredoing, aware that I had to be
what was a station officer watchcommander now to join West
Smids and West Smids for thosethat don't know have, and still
(03:40):
have a full-time Fi team.
I think the team began in about1983 and I might be wrong, but
I'm fairly sure it was the firstfull-time fi team in the
country.
Okay, I thought, no, I'd liketo be part of that, so needed to
be promoted.
A couple of times, so did that,and then an opportunity came up
in 2011.
Basically, guy was retiring,I'd been a watch commander for a
(04:02):
couple of years, really reallyenjoying my time on the watch
that I was on.
It was a really well, I wantedto be an FI.
If I'm honest, it came up alittle bit early, but I thought.
You know what?
There's only five positions andit's kind of dead man's shoes
really.
We certainly wasn't.
Unless someone retires, thenthere's no way People don't move
out.
(04:25):
An opportunity, an opportunitycame up, so I went for it and I
was fortunate to get it.
So I joined West Mid's FI teamin 2011 and that's where I
stayed and I'll be honest forthe next.
What was it?
10 years after that, you wouldnot have got me out there full
of money.
That was me set for the rest ofmy career and I did.
I stayed there until two yearsago.
So I was in the FI team, I wasworking for JSD and, if you go
back a bit further, like I said,martin Hyatt, nige Pete Smith
(04:48):
and learned a lot and loved itand then would gained a bit of
reputation, a bit of a badgecollector.
Any opportunity I could to get aqualification, I jumped at it,
so went for me, did all my IFEexams, did the FIT first through
the IAAI, the InternationalAssociation of Arson
Investigators.
When I was able to, I did myCFI In 2014,.
(05:12):
Jason and me did our MScthrough Wolverhampton University
.
What else have I done?
I got involved with the IFE,started volunteering with them
as an examiner and I still dothat today.
And then that brings us up to abit more modern times.
Back in 16 started working atFireside College on the level
five course and I'm still theredoing that went into private
(05:32):
sector still do that, obviouslyalongside my full-time role, but
not much.
I'm just.
I did kind of do that part part, part-time really.
So I worked in for engineeringforensics in the private sector,
which which I still do, andthen kind of didn't really see
it coming, mate.
But two years ago I don't knowwhat it was, but I just thought
you know what.
I've got five years left in mycareer.
Have I had too much of the goodthing?
(05:54):
Because I've been an FI for 11years or 10 years, thinking
perhaps I need to change?
I wasn't not enjoying it.
I just felt like there wassomething else for me to finish.
And then, speaking to family anda seed was planted, because I
actually live in Hereford andWorcester.
I live in Redditch inWorcestershire, and Hereford and
Worcester put an advert out forStation Commander promotion and
(06:14):
I thought I quite fancy that tofinish.
So I applied for that in early2022, was successful, and then I
transferred from West MidlandsVice over to Hereford and
Worcester in the October of 22and that's where I am now.
I'm still a fire investigator,but a bolt-on, so my day job is
looking after a couple of firestations.
My FI now is just a bolt-onwhich I enjoy.
(06:36):
I don't do as much, but I doenough to keep myself interested
and I've gone back tothoroughly enjoying it again,
which has been absolutelyperfect, and that's what kind of
brings me here today, really,mate.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Yeah, fantastic.
Do you find that they use you alot more because of all that
full-time?
Do you find you get pulled inquite a bit, or not?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Not really.
You know, I don't want to comeacross as arrogant, because I'm
not an arrogant person Hopefullynot.
But no, I came in withobviously, some experience and
no, I don't get used any morethan anybody else.
We're mobilized on who'snearest.
But I've certainly gotteninvolved with training and I've
got, obviously, contacts allover the country, so we've used
(07:13):
those and changed a few littlethings.
I'm really conscious of cominginto any organization like that
and going well, back in the westmids, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, and not become that personwell, all you're going to talk
about is western.
Actually go back there, and Ididn't want to do that.
So I've just introduced acouple of things that I thought
might have worked better, butlikewise adopted some things and
thought actually what we'redoing in Hereford and Worcester
is actually better and sharedthat back with the lads back in
(07:35):
West Mid.
But no, that's the question,mate, it's all on where I am
when.
If I'm the nearest, I go, ifI'm not the nearest, then I
don't go.
But we all help each other outin Hereford and Worcester.
It's a good team there's 10 ofus.
So if anyone's ever unsure,we'll get some second opinion,
we'll get the phone out andvideo call, or we'll pop in the
car and go to the job and have alook, but not really mate.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
We're all pretty much the same.
Yeah, I Surrey Police to end upin Afghanistan first and then I
came back to Dorset Police.
A similar experience.
When I went to Dorset I foundit quite difficult because I had
a reputation, I knew thesystems in Surrey Police and
then I went to Dorset wherethings were slightly different
and, as I say, there werecertain things.
I thought, oh, I was doingfootwear at Mark slightly
different than they were, andthey picked up on that and
(08:20):
thought, oh, that's actually abetter way.
But vice versa, I picked upDorset was probably the best
police force I've ever workedfor.
But yeah, I think sometimesit's a bit difficult to change
when you're quite established inone area and then you go to
another firm or another agency.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yeah, you don't want to be coming in and taking over
and saying, right, I'm not doingthat anymore, this is how I've
done it and that's not going to.
One of the big pluses was ableto change the way that we report
certainly fatal fires, I thinkin Herford and Worcester.
The report's been condensedquite a lot, which when you've
got a day job it's helpful tonot have to write as many pages
as.
Perhaps Because colonists don'tthink they want war and peace
(08:55):
on.
It's only my experience.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
They want to get to the summary, really, I think
yeah, exactly Succinct and tothe point, really yeah, and some
jobs warrant that report, andthese are but half the time they
don't.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
So when we can get the report a little bit shorter,
a bit more concise, I thinkthat pleases everybody yeah, and
just on that as well.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
I mean, how do you find because you're still in the
public sector, as you said, youwork for engineering, forensics
as well, on a sort of part-time, part-time basis but how do you
find the?
I found that quite difficult aswell.
The demands of public sectorversus private sector are very
different.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, I don't do that much in the private sector at
the moment.
I mean, I think when Ieventually retire which at the
moment is looking like probablyabout three and a half years,
that's the plan is to step intoa little bit more.
I like to be careful with mytime because I've still got
family as well and I don't wantto be out all the time.
I don't want to be out all thetime, I don't just want to live,
(09:46):
to work.
I do enjoy the differences.
They are different though, andI was quite surprised.
Difference, obviously, the fireservice.
When I go to an incident, peoplehave literally thrown
information at me.
That can't be more helpful andif I genuinely want, for example
, cctv or go and speak to aneighbor or the crews are there
for me.
Generally, yeah, the privatesector.
Hats off to all of you that arein the private sector, because
(10:07):
obtaining information can bereally difficult and I think
we're spoilt in the fire service.
Well, we are spoilt, but it'sthere on hand and people are
really willing to speak to us,whereas in the private sector, I
feel like everyone's reallysuspicious of each other.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, I mean the informationsharing, information gathering,
I think, in a certain extent ismuch more difficult in the
private sector.
I think I've spoken about thisbefore, but I always wear just
because I find them comfortable.
I wear the fire service bottomsbecause they're padded and
they're waterproof and they'vegot braces on, so I always wear
them and I find if I don't wearthem and wear a white suit,
(10:41):
people are far more likely tocome and talk to me thinking
that I'm from the fire servicethan I am if I'm from the police
service or from private sector.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
So yeah, experience similar, but the opposite,
because I wear generally aZybeck suit so I look like, so
people assume perhaps that I'mpolice.
You can sometimes see theactual change in people's
persona when they realizeactually I'm not police, I'm
fire.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, definitely, definitely a difference yeah,
definitely a sort of publicperception difference.
I think you know that's becauseI don't know, you and I
probably the same kind ofgeneration.
If I see a police car behind menow, I think, well, what have I
done?
You know, even if I haven'tdone anything, I think, oh hello
.
And you see a fire service, youthink, oh well, get out of the
way, type thing.
You know, hopefully they're onthe way to save someone's life
(11:25):
or put some fire out or do thatso yeah, I think that's
definitely different.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
You do see the police guy, you think, oh, I'll start
using my indicator and driveproperly.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
I end up being a worse driver than if the police
guy wasn't there in the firstplace I just picked up on a few
bits and we was just chattingoff air actually, and I said,
when I believe it or not, I dodo a bit of research for these
podcasts.
But I looked you up on linkedin.
I mean, you and I have knowneach other for a while because
you would come and help me outon the Cranfield stuff, but
we'll get to that a little bitlater.
But I noticed you've got a lotof letters beyond your name as
(11:54):
well.
I see that one of you left offwas a chartered forensic
practitioner.
Have you still got that?
Yes, I maintain that.
I don't want you to say whichis the best in that thing, but
would there be a preference foryou is more significant than the
other?
Have you had any feedback aboutwhich one is more significant
or better?
Speaker 2 (12:10):
I'll be honest, mate, not really the only one that I.
I'm proud of them all, andanyone that's got Les after
their name, I think, should beproud, because especially my
master's degree was a lot ofwork.
I know Jase was listening andbe laughing, but we had a lot of
prior learning to that.
One because we went into itwith quite a lot of experience
already with existingqualifications.
One because we went into itwith quite a lot of experience
(12:30):
already with existingqualifications.
But I do think back and look atmy dissertation that how on
earth did I have time for that?
I mean, I didn't have children,which obviously makes a massive
difference, and I was fortunateto have done a fair chunk of it
for my work on nights, but Icouldn't do that now.
But in terms of which do I feel?
I don't know really no one'sever really asking that.
I think there's some value inthe CFI, I think, because you
have to recertify every.
(12:51):
I think it's five years andI've just recertified.
So where's my MSC?
I've got it.
It's never going to be takenoff me.
Yeah, but I did it 10 years ago.
Whereas the CFI, I think,having to prove that I'm still
current with the required pointsthat you need in terms of, I
think, court time, training, cpdexperience I think there's some
(13:13):
value in that, I think, becausethat can be, I'd say, something
you've got to maintain.
And also, like you said, thechartered forensic practitioner.
Again, I have to recertify forthat and prove that I'm still
competent through theiraccreditation.
So not really, mate, I thinkjust the fact that you have to
recertify, I think, adds valueto that.
Yeah, definitely.
Otherwise, not really.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yeah, I mean I did the child forensic practitioner
on the CSI side and I justhaven't renewed it.
So I guess technically I'm nolonger certified, but I found it
quite challenging.
Actually I had an interviewprocess and that kind of stuff.
I think I was on the pilotscheme for it but I found that
quite challenging.
But I think the fact you haveto recertify, and particularly
with the CFI thing, because it'sa document that constantly
(13:55):
updates every new edition and ittakes the communities and the
scientific process, if you likecan update, then you're
guaranteed when you come torecertify on it.
There's new questions regardingthe new NFPA 921 as opposed to
the old one.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
So I think that's, I think, the other thing just
springing to mind.
If you see MSC or PhD, peopledon't know what my MSC's in it
could be in anything, Whereas ifI see CFI or CHFP whatever it
is, Chartered ForensicPractitioner, brackets FIRE.
At least you're aware ofsomeone's looks or involved in
fire investigation, rather thananything else.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Yeah, and again I think we were just chatting off,
let, we were just chewing thefuzz before we came on air.
But there is a change.
I think we both agree.
I think there's a change inperception towards not
necessarily I mean, if you'vegot a phd and it's in fire
investigation, with fire scienceor something that's fantastic I
think there's a changing ethosin the industry towards
practitioners, people who'vebeen there and done that and
actually done it practically, asopposed to people who may have
a phd from oxford or cambridgebut prior to that date never
been to a fire scene or a crimescene in their life.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
So it's going to say that that was a topic because I
was at I was at morton only lastweek actually teaching on a
level five course, and thatoften comes up.
And it came up again where wedo a short session on court
skills, giving evidence.
The same question is always, isalways asked Sorry, my first FI
could be a criminal, fire couldbe in Crown Court.
And I come in court and theopposing expert is, like you say
, oxford educated PhD, how do Icompete with that?
(15:19):
And the answer is always thesame Do not for one second
underestimate your fire servicepractical experience.
Academics won't have.
Like you say, phds is great,and and so my msc.
I'm proud of it, but to havethe practical fire service
experience alongside that, it'sinvaluable, it really is
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
I think it complements each other.
And also I find again I don'twant to be dispersing of
academics in that point of viewbut I find that we as
practitioners and in the public,I just find that we're all
hands-on sort of people becauseof the nature of our role,
because it takes it in a way andwe tend to have a hands-on
approach to things and actuallya discovery thing, and I think
(15:59):
sometimes it's a bit of reversepsychology, as you think.
Well, I could be up against aphd from oxford or cambridge and
therefore I need to 100% bottomout cause and origin and that
kind of stuff.
So I think it makes youactually work a little bit
harder.
But yeah, I think it's aninteresting dial.
Now you've been around for longenough and I've certainly.
The first ever fire scene Iever went to as a CSI was about
(16:22):
2001 I think, and it was amassive fire and we had all the
forensic science service wereout.
At that time.
They were still in existenceand we had all the forensic
science service were out.
At that time they were still inexistence and we had a couple
of the well-known kind ofcontractors out and it was a
very different time then than itwas now Very different kind of
philosophy, if I can say it thatway.
But yeah, anyway, I'm talkingtoo much for a change.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
But one isn't better than the other.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I'll just say what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
We learn from each other, which is what this is all
about.
But also they complement eachother, so you've got both things
right, but one isn't betterthan the other.
But having been a fighter forso many years before I became an
fi, certainly been in fires.
I've put fires out and know howthey behave and I've seen it
and that helps it does help.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
yeah, and I picked up as well, just when I was doing
the research, about your time atjaguar land rover jaguar, about
your apprenticeship.
I was going to ask because alot of people like Rossi and
other people are electricians aswell or have been electricians,
and I think that adds benefitbecause you should know how
things should be, how thingsactually go in.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
So I think I went and qualified as an electrician for
that reason.
So I did my electricalqualifications about five years
ago and still go out andpractice as an electrician,
albeit not regularly.
I do enough to maintain mycertification, which, going back
to what we were talking aboutbefore, I have to recertify
every year and my annualinspections next month actually.
So, having that, I'm a sparky,I understand electrics, and then
(17:42):
when I'm investigatingelectrical fire, I've got that
behind me yeah, brilliant, and Ithink that's great.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
And I was talking to james acott last episode.
It's not come out yet, but wewere talking he's qualified to
install solar panels.
You know that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
And don't get me wrong the day I think I know
everything is the day I need toleave.
Yeah, definitely.
There'll always be a job whereI don't know something and I'll
pick up the phone.
I'll ask someone that does yeah, fantastic, all right, mate.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Well, listen, let's get onto your msc, because
that's what I tend to use youfor, especially at cranfield.
So tell us about your mscthesis and just give us a brief
overview, and then we'll getinto some of the specifics so I
was again fortunate enough to beoffered a msc place back in.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
I think it would have been 2012 when we started got
my degree in 14, so it took acouple of years and after we'd
done a couple of units that wewere expected to do, add that to
my credited prior learning itbecame we're faced now I've got
to do a project dissertation, soI was thinking what am I going
to do?
I decided that, unsurprisingly,that I need to pick a subject
(18:44):
that I'm interested in, becauseif I'm not interested in it, I'm
just going through the motions.
It's just gonna not work.
I can't like wing an MScdissertation.
I've winged a lot of things inlife, mate, but I don't think I
could wing that.
So I thought I need to picksomething that I'm interested in
but also isn't going to be toodifficult to get the data from.
So, thankfully, west Middscertainly then, and I'm sure
still do maintained a reallycomprehensive library of past
(19:09):
cases, so every fire death youcould go basically pull a file
off a shelf and get all thedetails that you wanted,
including the report, sogenerally the photographs it was
all there.
So I thought why not exploit?
You might go and look at theodd job, but I don't think it
was ever looked at in anymassive detail.
So I thought, okay, what we'regoing to look at.
So I've got all thisinformation and all this data
(19:30):
sat in this story and what we'regoing to research, and I can't
remember why it was.
I chose suicide, not the mostpleasant, joyful subject, but it
grabbed my interest.
I don't know why, but it did so.
I thought, okay, I'm going toresearch suicide, and I think I
set out with the intention totry and understand why someone
would decide to end their lifeby setting themselves on fire
rather than the methods morecommon methods, such as hanging
(19:53):
or poisoning or whatever.
So I started to look at it andthought, okay, what's the point
of what I'm trying to achieve?
So, like I say, I set out withthe intention of trying to
understand why someone wouldchoose that method as opposed to
other methods, and then thesecond kind of motivation was to
try then and hopefully come outthe other side with some.
These are the commonalities, orthis is what we frequently see
(20:14):
at a suicide fire scene, which Ithought might be useful to fire
investigators, because we don'tsee them very often and since I
left, west means I've not hadany, so the last two years I've
not been to one.
I don't think the service hashad one either my service, but
so you can see how infrequentthey are, which is reflected by
the lack of information outthere.
So anyway, that's what I decidedto do and I say I had access to
(20:37):
all the data, so I picked a 20year.
It was 20 year range.
I looked at all the suicidesthat had been recorded.
So, to be clear, suicidesconcluded or back then it was
avertedverted.
But now it's a conclusion by acoroner, so the coroner was
happy or had concluded that thisdeath was a suicide.
There were a few files I cameacross where it looked like a
(20:59):
suicide, but there wasinsufficient information for the
coroner to rule suicide andinstead it was either open
verdicts or, I think,misadventure.
So I only looked at deaths thatwere recorded as a suicide and
in that 20-year period, whichwas from 1993, I think, to 2013,
I can't remember, sorry, mate Ithink it was 43 cases in that
(21:20):
time period.
So I've got 43 cases of suicidein a 20-year period in the West
Midlands.
What am I going to look at?
So I decided to look at theobvious things, such as the sex
of the person, the age, and thenproduce a list and include
other things, such as where thesuicide was in relation to where
they lived, time of the day,the day of the week, the month,
(21:41):
and then whether an accelerantwas used.
Was there any history of mentalhealth carbon monoxide levels,
which was quite an interestingone, so that sort of thing.
Really.
The MSC started out with theresearch of what was out there
and there's a lot of researchthat's been done about suicide
in the Middle East and the morepublicised cases of immolation,
(22:02):
where people set themselves onfire as a protest and again,
those that know me will probablysmile because we often hear the
term self-immolation, whichisn't unless that person has
immolated, which is to sacrificethemselves in general to make a
protest.
So someone typically will walkinto a middle of a market square
and set themselves on fire in aprotest very public, to make a
(22:23):
point.
That's immolation.
But a suicide where someonetakes their own life because
they're depressed isn't animmolation.
But a suicide where someonetakes their own life because
they're depressed isn't animmolation.
So I kind of said we perhapsneed to request midlands at the
time we're classifying them asself immolations, where actually
every single case I looked atwasn't an immolation, it was a
suicide.
But that's just maybe pinnaclereally.
Yeah, so look at all thosefactors and then for, obviously,
(22:46):
sex time of day, I had all thatdata and then, as I went down
the list.
Things like carbon monoxidewasn't always available and
history of depression wasn'talways available, but I got
enough data to form a bit of apicture of what was going on and
that's what I decided to do, soembarked on that and it took me
nearly two years to finish it.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yeah, so like self-immolation, then that's
sort of the very famous kind ofBuddhist monk in the middle of
the market protesting againstwhatever he's protesting against
.
But that's not technicallyself-immolation, that is a
self-immolation.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah, mr Bouazizi, who committed suicide in Tunisia
, who's kind of been the reasongiven for the Arab Spring and
what happened in the Middle East, because he was being
persecuted.
I've had enough of this, I needto make a stand.
And he poured petrol overhimself in a market square and
killed himself to make a pointand to raise the awareness of
what's going on.
That is an immolation.
(23:39):
I say suicides, where people doon their own away from home
because they're depressed, I sayisn't by definition an
immolation.
I've said that when people gowell, but we know what you mean.
Self-immolation I know what youmean, but it's technically not
correct.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
And we had that American guy, the UK Air Force
guy, recently, wasn't he?
That was last year, I think, soafter Israel and all that kind
of issues.
But yeah, okay.
So in terms of like for fireinvestigations, then what are
the trends?
What are we looking for, bothfrom a coroner's point of view
and also maybe from a crimescene point of view?
Is there something that an FIshould be looking for?
(24:16):
Is there any trends about timeof days, as you've mentioned,
that sort of criteria thatyou've set out?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yes, one of my aims was to try and identify why
someone might choose that method.
In a nutshell, I wasn't able to.
Clearly, you can't speak topeople and the people that have
ever tried to do and weresuccessful I've never got access
to that and obviously thosewere successful can't ask them.
My own theory, perhaps, is thatif you pour petrol over
yourself and it's generallypetrol, I'll come on to that
shortly but if you pour petrolover yourself and set yourself
(24:44):
on fire, there isn't really anycoming back from that.
I don't know whether it's maybebecause once I do this, even if
I change my mind, it's going tohappen.
I don't know.
But in terms of fire scenes,mate, what was interesting was
that carbon monoxide was acompletely unreliable measure.
So I had carbon monoxide levelsthat ranged from two percent to
(25:08):
, I think, 85% in people thathad basically poured fuel over
themselves.
So when you're looking atcarbon monoxide as an indicator
as to whether that may indicatesuicide or not, entirely
unreliable, what's more reliableis the use of a liquid
accelerant or ignitable liquid,should I say so, petrol being
the most common, which is nogreat surprise because it's
(25:28):
cheap, readily available, youcan get your hands on it quite
easily.
So my research at leastindicated that if you're at a
fire scene where someone's beenset on fire and there's not a
liquid accelerant or, sorry,ignitable liquid, that would be
strange.
So what I found because it wasin the high 80%, it was up to
90% people that did commitsuicide through fire used an
(25:50):
ignitable liquid, and again, itwas generally petrol, but
without an ignitable liquid.
I'm not saying it isn't asuicide, don't get me wrong.
It's just something to be awareof.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
So just to clarify, you're saying like 80%, 90% of
suicides involve ignitableliquid.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah.
And then the last one is fairlyobvious really.
But if I'm not finding anignition source at a fatal fire
where it's perceived to be asuicide, then unless someone's
used a single match, for example, then again I went to great
lengths through the reports tomake sure that the ignition
source was found.
Again, I'm not saying if youdon't find the ignition source
(26:25):
it can't be a suicide.
That's not what I'm saying.
But it was prevalent at most ofthe scenes I investigated.
In the rest of it though, mate,there's no great surprises.
It was white men in their 50sand 60s were overrepresented,
more males and females, but interms of times of day, day,
month, no pattern.
That's really the take-homekind of answers I've got from
(26:45):
what I've carried out.
And again, it's 10 years oldnow, so if I've got the time I'd
like to.
And again, it's 10 years oldnow.
So if I've got the time I'dquite like to do it again, but
if it's changed, whether thathappens I'm not sure.
Well, when you retire from thefire service, maybe I think my
wife might have some plans forthat instead, and my kids.
But no, it would be interesting.
But again, I'd be eveninterested to know whether
suicide by virus even has on theincrease or the decrease or
(27:07):
it's stayed the same.
I might look at that perhaps.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Did you see any trends over those 20 years?
I guess you saw a trend inreporting style maybe Not really
mate, to be honest.
Okay, that's good to know.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
I remember rightly, the suicide generally, I think,
was on the increase.
At the time I did my research.
The trend line for suicide wasthe same, just springtime.
There was an odd observation inthat one particular year, I
think west midlands, when overthat time period we're averaging
two, three, maybe four a year,and then one year it was, I want
to say, six or seven.
(27:39):
I know previous guests havedone research, have offered to
share their dissertation, whichI'm more than happy to do
fantastic and make it available.
It's online somewhere, but ifyou want it I'll gladly it.
But there was a spike one yearit was the same year where one
of the big soaps I think it wasCoronation Street or something
they had a suicide and I thinkit was by fire, and it spiked
the same year.
Now I don't know whether it wascopycat, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
But it was interesting that that correlated
with that.
Yeah, definitely, and TV andall that doesn't play around.
I'm watching the, just as alittle aside.
I'm watching the Mendez murdersof the two brothers and
apparently they murdered theirparents because they watched a
movie about killing theirparents, one of the instigators
for the crime itself.
So I think definitely what wesee around us and springs to
(28:22):
mind in people's ideas, what yousaid about the obviously
finding the ignition source,that's sort of bread and butter
stuff for us, but maybe csis andfirst fis I think it's really
important to actually make sureyou excavate and make sure you
try and find that what sort ofignition sources were typical
generally lighters, but onoccasions where it's matches,
(28:42):
you would find the box ofmatches close by.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
They keep saying the same thing, really.
I make the point that justbecause what I'm saying, it
doesn't mean it is or it isn't.
But if you find a match on itthat there's no ignition source
and someone, for example's got abox of matches and taken one
out and then driven somewherewith that single match, that
would be just not consistentwith what I found.
Yeah, sure, what you alluded to.
Just then.
It stems back to fi.
(29:06):
Generally, if you go to a scenewhere you see a body and there's
a can of petrol next to it andyou've got to be careful of bias
here and think, well, clearlythey must have killed themselves
.
Well, we should be going intothese scenes, as you well know
that.
Well, no, we need to rule outsomeone else hasn't done this,
because it's entirely possibleif someone else has done this,
then the ignition source mayhave been taken away by the
(29:26):
perpetrator.
Exactly, finding an ignitionsource at a so-called or
apparent suicide for me is quiteimportant.
Well, it's very important.
So we need to keep that openmind and make sure we look
properly and do our detailedexaminations.
We would for any fire yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
I mean, just as we were chatting my cynical from my
background, I was thinkingabout all the fires that were
undetermined, or suicides thatwere the coroner couldn't rule
on positively as a suicide.
I'd like to look at those ones.
I'd like to go back and seethose ones yeah, there is that
sensation.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Go back and think, oh , not just in suicide, but not
quite a few fires off.
When I started out in fithinking yeah, couple spring to
mind I just thought did I do thebest I could have done?
I did my best at the time.
But you'd quite like to go backin time sometimes and go I'd
have done that job differentlynow and would I have come out
with a different conclusion.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Sure, yeah.
I mean, I had a little bit ofan argument with someone on
LinkedIn the other day abouthindsight and hindsight's a
fantastic thing.
It's that's the best, isn't it?
It's all very well when, yeah,exactly when you've got another
police force that comes in oranother fire service comes in,
they've got weeks and weeks toreview the investigation and
stuff and you've had maybe twoor three days to actually do
(30:39):
yours.
So always, uh, hindsight'salways a wonderful thing, mate.
Let's move on to sort of any.
Unfortunately, we're startingto move towards the time, but
you obviously do a massiveamount of education.
You're involved with the fireservice college and that kind of
stuff.
So what would be your top tipsas a fire investigator?
Have you learned any majorthings over the?
Is there a certain thing thatyou would recommend, or there's
(31:00):
a certain lesson that youlearned early on?
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Well, I learn every day.
I know that sounds a little bitsickly, but it is true.
And when I teach on the fireinvestigation course at Morton,
we open with saying look, it maywell be us standing at the
front of the classroom talkingto you guys, but we learn
equally off you.
There'll be experiences thatyou've had, things you've seen,
things you've learned that Iwon't be aware of, so please
share.
We encourage that kind of twoway it works and I learn lots,
(31:28):
way it works and I learn lots.
Top tips now.
I would say one of the bestpieces of advice I ever had was
once you think you've finished ascene, then you haven't quite
finished, because what you needto do now is go and sit in the
van or the car or on the wall ofthe garden and have a cup of
tea and just go through the joband think have I done the best I
can?
Have I not been lazy if I'vedone everything?
And then I used to carry aswing brigade user proforma,
don't know, for yeah, no see figsort of stuff yeah, I
(31:50):
personally don't like that.
I carry one because it's auseful proforma and I'll go
through that proforma at the endto make sure I've not forgotten
anything.
So I know, have I?
I haven't taken a photograph ofthe gas meter or I haven't
tested the cooker or whatever.
So I would certainly recommendand it's worked for me is to go
when you think you've finished,go and have a brew, get a tea on
(32:10):
and go through the job andthink what have I done?
Have I done the best I can andwhat am I like to be challenged
on?
Because, fast forward tostanding in a witness box, what
they're going to ask me, whatwould I ask myself if I was
opposing myself?
Certainly, certainly that.
And then I would also and thisis, we just mentioned hindsight.
When I first started as an FI inthe fire service, I didn't
(32:32):
really have an appreciation, ifI'm honest, of what the private
sector's up against in terms ofinvestigating fires.
That happened days, weeks,months, before I've now got into
a.
I think it's a good habit and Itry and share this is that if
you're at scene, bear in mindthere is someone probably, or
there could be someone,following you in a week or a
(32:52):
month, be a little bit courteousto those people and if I can
explain in a way that allowsthem to look, rather than just
pile it up in the front lawn orthe front back garden, for
someone then to have to sitthrough it and work out what was
where, I'll try and recreatenot recreate the scene
necessarily, but if I can I will.
But certainly if I findsomething important, I'll put
(33:13):
that aside and so that someonecan come onto a scene and find
it, they can call me and I'llsay, yeah, that pile's come from
that room, that pile's comefrom that room, et cetera.
Because my experience has shownthat actually I might come away
from the scene, not really havethe answer.
A private FI goes in after meand they do get the answer and
we're willing to shareinformation because a private
investigator can maybe getthings paid for that I can't in
(33:35):
the public sector.
If I want the CCTV analysed orthe fire alarm panel analysed,
then I can't, and they can byhelping them out.
That's paid dividends in thepast for me, because they then
shared that with me.
I think having a regard for theprivate sector is probably one
of the things I've learned,certainly having moved into the
private sector as well.
But yeah, I think it's justtaking your time and, like other
(33:55):
people have said, I woulditerate what I think Steve
Andrews said and a few otherpeople If you ever get the
opportunity to go and set firesand stuff, go and do it, because
on the morning course we setthe scenes up and watching fires
behave is fantastic and really,really valuable.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Yeah, definitely.
I think the burn to learn kindof mentality is second to none
and once you see it, I mean Ilearn by watching, by learning,
by observing, as opposed tobeing taught loads of theory,
and so you can teach me amorning theory and then that's
how I try to do things.
I always try and do somepractical in the afternoon which
(34:31):
demonstrates what the conceptsI'm trying to get over in the
morning type thing.
But I think by doing that sortof burn to learn process it
sinks in much better.
And also, fire is a funny thing, isn't?
Speaker 2 (34:36):
it acts in different ways in different ventilation
conditions and understandingsort of fundamental, as opposed
to some of the commonperceptions, I guess, of how
fire behaves and even I've beendoing this a long time now and
even last week we one of theburns perceptions, I guess, of
how fire behaves and even havingbeen doing this a long time now
and even last week.
One of the burns we did atMorton last week was deliberate
fire.
It was a liquid accelerant.
It took ages to get going.
The accelerant took obviouslyquite well, but then it slowed
(34:57):
down and we're clock-watching,thinking if you weren't here to
witness this, you'd have justassumed it was because it was
accelerated.
It would have gone quickly andit didn't.
And sometimes the distance thatglass will travel when it fails
because of a fire, so it's notbeen broken because of force,
it's genuinely broken because ofheat.
It falls out and it can roll along way and you thought I'd
never have put that there.
It's certainly really, reallyvaluable to get the opportunity
(35:20):
If anyone's listening to go outon a burn, then take the
opportunity, I think as well.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
I learned a valuable lesson.
I went to gardeners, I wasdoing something with itv and we
set up a burn and where we setup the burn the burn patterns
did not match at all in any way,shape or form the area of
origin.
It was quite, a veryinteresting kind of exercise
because I thought I know wherewe've lit it and the burn
patterns just didn't match thatat all.
And that was all to do withventilation effects.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
But yeah, fantastic we sometimes have the
opportunity actually, becauseobviously setting up a burn at
morton or anywhere else it's aknown outcome, so you know where
the fire started.
So sometimes I'll say to theguys well, don't tell me what
you're doing, let me have a lookafterwards.
But if I'm really wrong, justdon't tell me.
I just don't laugh too loudit's good to go, and well, I
(36:04):
think it started there.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
And on and on outcome fire, yeah, and I think that
just to come back on theprevious point about liaison
between the private sector hasresources available, because
it's all about the financesreally at the end of the day on
the private side and insuranceand stuff, and I think they will
go to those extra lengths wherepublic sector might not
necessarily have the cash toactually do it.
I fully encourage.
(36:26):
I've said this many times.
To be honest with you, I'venever had a bad experience with
a fire service.
I've always been very helpfulwhen I've approached them from a
private side and in courtesyand return to that I always
offer a bit of CPD or somethingelse.
If I've got information I canshare, no problem.
I tend to.
About your digging out point, Ialways tend to take a cheap
tarpaulin, just the smallesttarpaulin, stick it all on the
(36:48):
tarpaulin, whoever comes behindme.
If they come behind me they cansee where I've excavated.
They can see where I'veexcavated and it's all in one
area for them, so that they kindof know where it's come from.
So I always find that usefuland I've always found that
useful when other people do itfor me.
Nothing worse to come to ascene and somebody else has been
there before and there's just amile of a massive pile of fire
(37:09):
debris and you have no ideawhere it's come from.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
It's quite easy not to do that, so why would you?
Speaker 1 (37:14):
yeah, exactly what's next for you then, james?
What's next on the agenda?
Obviously you're still in theservice.
You're doing a bit on theprivate.
What's your plans?
Ambitions for the next step Idon't know, mate.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Really I've.
Really I can retire in justover three years now, and two
years ago I didn't think for asecond I would be a stage
commander in a different service.
So I don't know, mate.
I thought about promotion again, perhaps, and that's something
I probably will end up doing Interms of FI.
I've got no intention offinishing FI.
As long as I'll keep going aslong as I can.
I think there is a shelf lifefor well.
(37:44):
I feel like there's a shelflife for myself.
Put it that way when, once I'veleft the service, I'm not
practicing.
As long as I keep going in theprivate sector, then I'll go as
long as I can.
I genuinely enjoy teaching aswell, more than particularly,
and recently started helping outwith Martin at Firewise, and I
do enjoy teaching, I really do.
So I can see that carrying on.
I enjoy the IFE, volunteeringwith the exams Pretty much what
(38:07):
I'm doing already.
To be honest, mate, I'll goback to what I said before.
Mate, I've been paid to do ahobby for 27 years, yeah, and I
value that.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
As long as that can carry on, I'll be happy.
I mean, that's why I kind ofwent from CSI to FI, because FI,
to me, is the ultimatechallenge in a way, because
you're looking for forensicevidence.
You're looking for origin andcause, but you're looking for
forensic.
There's obviously been a fire,so that makes it even more
difficult, so it's even more ofa challenge.
And that's what really, as yousay, I think once your passion
goes for it, it's probably timefor you to do maybe something
(38:38):
else.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
I think everyone that's seen that fire would
probably agree one thing that ifyou're not passionate about it
then you've got to stop, becauseif you don't enjoy it it could
be a horrible job.
Yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
It's not a particularly pleasant job, is it
?
Speaker 2 (38:49):
No, it's not.
No, no, there's something aboutit.
We obviously like, don't we?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Well, listen, mate, it's been absolutely fantastic
having you on.
We took a little while to gethere, with our schedules and
bits and pieces, but I'm reallygrateful that you came on and
you've got a massive amount ofexperience and you've got as I
say, you've got a lot of fingersin some really good enterprises
and bits and pieces.
So again, mate, thanks forcoming on.
You're more than welcome, mate,thanks for having me.
All right, no problem, cheers,mate, cheers, mate.
(39:17):
Hey, thank you for listening toCSI on Fire.
Please don't forget to like,subscribe and suggest future
topics on our webpage.
Don't forget to like, subscribeand suggest future topics on
our webpage.
Remember factor non-verbal.
Take care, good hunting.
I hope to see you on the nextone.
(39:37):
Cheers.
Hi, welcome to CSI on Fire, the podcast that takes
you behind the scenes of thefire investigation community.
I'm your host, mike Moulden,and episode after episode, we'll
attempt to excavate the oftendifficult but always fascinating
world of the fire investigator.
Okay, so welcome to CSI on Fire.
(00:26):
Fire Investigation Podcast.
This is episode 29, and todayI've got James Holden on.
Thanks for coming on thepodcast, james, you're welcome.
Thanks for having me.
Are we going to refer to yournickname as Noddy or are we
going to stay away from that?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I don't mind, mate.
I'll be honest Outside the fireservice.
No one calls me Noddy In thefire service.
No one calls me noddy in thefire service world.
It's noddy because if I sayJames, people know who's that.
You know me well enough to callme noddy.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
That's fine all right , thanks, mate.
I appreciate you allowing me todo that, but I'll call you
James.
Anyway, be more professional.
Try and be more professionaltoday.
So, mate, you know the formatof the podcast.
Just start us away how you'vegot here today.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Take us through your background how you got into fire
investigation okay, I'll tryand keep it brief, but I suppose
it goes back to me wanting tobe in the fire service from I'll
be honest a kid I grew upwanting to be a firefighter I
knew quite early on I was one ofthose kids that thought, yeah,
I'd like to be in the fireservice.
My dad was in the police for 42odd years and I knew I didn't
want to be in an office or dosomething what I would regard as
(01:25):
mundane.
So I worked towards that, wentthrough school and then when I
reached 18, I wasn't able toapply because where I lived West
Midlands were not recruiting.
So I thought what am I going todo now?
So I lived in Solihull in theWest Midlands, and I basically
needed a job, because I didn'twant to go to university either.
I just wanted to be in the fireservice.
So I was treading water really.
So I joined Land Rover Solihull, started on an electrical
(01:48):
apprenticeship and, being honest, hated every single minute of
it and just was longing to leave.
So I did that for a while,which taught me a valuable
lesson actually don't ever do ajob that you hate, because I did
.
You can pay me millions, but ifI hate it, it's not worth it
anyway.
So I did that for 18 months andI was 19, I think I was when
West Midlands finally opened uptheir recruitment and went for
(02:10):
it.
Long story short, got in firsttime thankfully I was 20.
So I joined West Midlands whenI was 20.
Back in 1998 I was still livingat home, got sent to my first
station, coventry at canley, dida few years there, got promoted
and then really fi became athing.
I think probably around 2001 ortwo went to a fatal fire might
(02:34):
have been my first actually, butI remember distinctly that job.
The fire investigator came outmight be mark mccabe, who
perhaps some of your listenersmight know quite well through
wolverhampton university.
I think he's still practicing,but anyway I think it was Mark
came out and I was just kind ofgrabbed by what he was doing.
I'm thinking that's reallyinteresting and I asked my boss
can I just sit on the shoulderof the FIA please?
(02:55):
I'd like to see what they'redoing.
And that was me hook really.
So from then onwards I wentthrough promotion, got through
leading firefighter sub-officer,which then became crew
commander, watch commander, butduring my early career any
opportunity I could get I wouldgo up to what is now closed, but
the old A1 central fire stationin Birmingham, which is where
(03:17):
fire investigation used to bebased when I joined, and I would
spend as much time as I couldup there shadowing the FIs.
Back then we had plenty ofpeople on fire stations, which
is a bit different now, but Iwas able to get there quite a
lot and I gained a lot ofexperience by just riding along
and shadowing what they weredoing, aware that I had to be
what was a station officer watchcommander now to join West
Smids and West Smids for thosethat don't know have, and still
(03:40):
have a full-time Fi team.
I think the team began in about1983 and I might be wrong, but
I'm fairly sure it was the firstfull-time fi team in the
country.
Okay, I thought, no, I'd liketo be part of that, so needed to
be promoted.
A couple of times, so did that,and then an opportunity came up
in 2011.
Basically, guy was retiring,I'd been a watch commander for a
(04:02):
couple of years, really reallyenjoying my time on the watch
that I was on.
It was a really well, I wantedto be an FI.
If I'm honest, it came up alittle bit early, but I thought.
You know what?
There's only five positions andit's kind of dead man's shoes
really.
We certainly wasn't.
Unless someone retires, thenthere's no way People don't move
out.
(04:25):
An opportunity, an opportunitycame up, so I went for it and I
was fortunate to get it.
So I joined West Mid's FI teamin 2011 and that's where I
stayed and I'll be honest forthe next.
What was it?
10 years after that, you wouldnot have got me out there full
of money.
That was me set for the rest ofmy career and I did.
I stayed there until two yearsago.
So I was in the FI team, I wasworking for JSD and, if you go
back a bit further, like I said,martin Hyatt, nige Pete Smith
(04:48):
and learned a lot and loved itand then would gained a bit of
reputation, a bit of a badgecollector.
Any opportunity I could to get aqualification, I jumped at it,
so went for me, did all my IFEexams, did the FIT first through
the IAAI, the InternationalAssociation of Arson
Investigators.
When I was able to, I did myCFI In 2014,.
(05:12):
Jason and me did our MScthrough Wolverhampton University
.
What else have I done?
I got involved with the IFE,started volunteering with them
as an examiner and I still dothat today.
And then that brings us up to abit more modern times.
Back in 16 started working atFireside College on the level
five course and I'm still theredoing that went into private
(05:32):
sector still do that, obviouslyalongside my full-time role, but
not much.
I'm just.
I did kind of do that part part, part-time really.
So I worked in for engineeringforensics in the private sector,
which which I still do, andthen kind of didn't really see
it coming, mate.
But two years ago I don't knowwhat it was, but I just thought
you know what.
I've got five years left in mycareer.
Have I had too much of the goodthing?
(05:54):
Because I've been an FI for 11years or 10 years, thinking
perhaps I need to change?
I wasn't not enjoying it.
I just felt like there wassomething else for me to finish.
And then, speaking to family anda seed was planted, because I
actually live in Hereford andWorcester.
I live in Redditch inWorcestershire, and Hereford and
Worcester put an advert out forStation Commander promotion and
(06:14):
I thought I quite fancy that tofinish.
So I applied for that in early2022, was successful, and then I
transferred from West MidlandsVice over to Hereford and
Worcester in the October of 22and that's where I am now.
I'm still a fire investigator,but a bolt-on, so my day job is
looking after a couple of firestations.
My FI now is just a bolt-onwhich I enjoy.
(06:36):
I don't do as much, but I doenough to keep myself interested
and I've gone back tothoroughly enjoying it again,
which has been absolutelyperfect, and that's what kind of
brings me here today, really,mate.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Yeah, fantastic.
Do you find that they use you alot more because of all that
full-time?
Do you find you get pulled inquite a bit, or not?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Not really.
You know, I don't want to comeacross as arrogant, because I'm
not an arrogant person Hopefullynot.
But no, I came in withobviously, some experience and
no, I don't get used any morethan anybody else.
We're mobilized on who'snearest.
But I've certainly gotteninvolved with training and I've
got, obviously, contacts allover the country, so we've used
(07:13):
those and changed a few littlethings.
I'm really conscious of cominginto any organization like that
and going well, back in the westmids, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, and not become that personwell, all you're going to talk
about is western.
Actually go back there, and Ididn't want to do that.
So I've just introduced acouple of things that I thought
might have worked better, butlikewise adopted some things and
thought actually what we'redoing in Hereford and Worcester
is actually better and sharedthat back with the lads back in
(07:35):
West Mid.
But no, that's the question,mate, it's all on where I am
when.
If I'm the nearest, I go, ifI'm not the nearest, then I
don't go.
But we all help each other outin Hereford and Worcester.
It's a good team there's 10 ofus.
So if anyone's ever unsure,we'll get some second opinion,
we'll get the phone out andvideo call, or we'll pop in the
car and go to the job and have alook, but not really mate.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
We're all pretty much the same.
Yeah, I Surrey Police to end upin Afghanistan first and then I
came back to Dorset Police.
A similar experience.
When I went to Dorset I foundit quite difficult because I had
a reputation, I knew thesystems in Surrey Police and
then I went to Dorset wherethings were slightly different
and, as I say, there werecertain things.
I thought, oh, I was doingfootwear at Mark slightly
different than they were, andthey picked up on that and
(08:20):
thought, oh, that's actually abetter way.
But vice versa, I picked upDorset was probably the best
police force I've ever workedfor.
But yeah, I think sometimesit's a bit difficult to change
when you're quite established inone area and then you go to
another firm or another agency.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yeah, you don't want to be coming in and taking over
and saying, right, I'm not doingthat anymore, this is how I've
done it and that's not going to.
One of the big pluses was ableto change the way that we report
certainly fatal fires, I thinkin Herford and Worcester.
The report's been condensedquite a lot, which when you've
got a day job it's helpful tonot have to write as many pages
as.
Perhaps Because colonists don'tthink they want war and peace
(08:55):
on.
It's only my experience.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
They want to get to the summary, really, I think
yeah, exactly Succinct and tothe point, really yeah, and some
jobs warrant that report, andthese are but half the time they
don't.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
So when we can get the report a little bit shorter,
a bit more concise, I thinkthat pleases everybody yeah, and
just on that as well.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
I mean, how do you find because you're still in the
public sector, as you said, youwork for engineering, forensics
as well, on a sort of part-time, part-time basis but how do you
find the?
I found that quite difficult aswell.
The demands of public sectorversus private sector are very
different.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, I don't do that much in the private sector at
the moment.
I mean, I think when Ieventually retire which at the
moment is looking like probablyabout three and a half years,
that's the plan is to step intoa little bit more.
I like to be careful with mytime because I've still got
family as well and I don't wantto be out all the time.
I don't want to be out all thetime, I don't just want to live,
(09:46):
to work.
I do enjoy the differences.
They are different though, andI was quite surprised.
Difference, obviously, the fireservice.
When I go to an incident, peoplehave literally thrown
information at me.
That can't be more helpful andif I genuinely want, for example
, cctv or go and speak to aneighbor or the crews are there
for me.
Generally, yeah, the privatesector.
Hats off to all of you that arein the private sector, because
(10:07):
obtaining information can bereally difficult and I think
we're spoilt in the fire service.
Well, we are spoilt, but it'sthere on hand and people are
really willing to speak to us,whereas in the private sector, I
feel like everyone's reallysuspicious of each other.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, I mean the informationsharing, information gathering,
I think, in a certain extent ismuch more difficult in the
private sector.
I think I've spoken about thisbefore, but I always wear just
because I find them comfortable.
I wear the fire service bottomsbecause they're padded and
they're waterproof and they'vegot braces on, so I always wear
them and I find if I don't wearthem and wear a white suit,
(10:41):
people are far more likely tocome and talk to me thinking
that I'm from the fire servicethan I am if I'm from the police
service or from private sector.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
So yeah, experience similar, but the opposite,
because I wear generally aZybeck suit so I look like, so
people assume perhaps that I'mpolice.
You can sometimes see theactual change in people's
persona when they realizeactually I'm not police, I'm
fire.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, definitely, definitely a difference yeah,
definitely a sort of publicperception difference.
I think you know that's becauseI don't know, you and I
probably the same kind ofgeneration.
If I see a police car behind menow, I think, well, what have I
done?
You know, even if I haven'tdone anything, I think, oh hello
.
And you see a fire service, youthink, oh well, get out of the
way, type thing.
You know, hopefully they're onthe way to save someone's life
(11:25):
or put some fire out or do thatso yeah, I think that's
definitely different.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
You do see the police guy, you think, oh, I'll start
using my indicator and driveproperly.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
I end up being a worse driver than if the police
guy wasn't there in the firstplace I just picked up on a few
bits and we was just chattingoff air actually, and I said,
when I believe it or not, I dodo a bit of research for these
podcasts.
But I looked you up on linkedin.
I mean, you and I have knowneach other for a while because
you would come and help me outon the Cranfield stuff, but
we'll get to that a little bitlater.
But I noticed you've got a lotof letters beyond your name as
(11:54):
well.
I see that one of you left offwas a chartered forensic
practitioner.
Have you still got that?
Yes, I maintain that.
I don't want you to say whichis the best in that thing, but
would there be a preference foryou is more significant than the
other?
Have you had any feedback aboutwhich one is more significant
or better?
Speaker 2 (12:10):
I'll be honest, mate, not really the only one that I.
I'm proud of them all, andanyone that's got Les after
their name, I think, should beproud, because especially my
master's degree was a lot ofwork.
I know Jase was listening andbe laughing, but we had a lot of
prior learning to that.
One because we went into itwith quite a lot of experience
already with existingqualifications.
One because we went into itwith quite a lot of experience
(12:30):
already with existingqualifications.
But I do think back and look atmy dissertation that how on
earth did I have time for that?
I mean, I didn't have children,which obviously makes a massive
difference, and I was fortunateto have done a fair chunk of it
for my work on nights, but Icouldn't do that now.
But in terms of which do I feel?
I don't know really no one'sever really asking that.
I think there's some value inthe CFI, I think, because you
have to recertify every.
(12:51):
I think it's five years andI've just recertified.
So where's my MSC?
I've got it.
It's never going to be takenoff me.
Yeah, but I did it 10 years ago.
Whereas the CFI, I think,having to prove that I'm still
current with the required pointsthat you need in terms of, I
think, court time, training, cpdexperience I think there's some
(13:13):
value in that, I think, becausethat can be, I'd say, something
you've got to maintain.
And also, like you said, thechartered forensic practitioner.
Again, I have to recertify forthat and prove that I'm still
competent through theiraccreditation.
So not really, mate, I thinkjust the fact that you have to
recertify, I think, adds valueto that.
Yeah, definitely.
Otherwise, not really.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yeah, I mean I did the child forensic practitioner
on the CSI side and I justhaven't renewed it.
So I guess technically I'm nolonger certified, but I found it
quite challenging.
Actually I had an interviewprocess and that kind of stuff.
I think I was on the pilotscheme for it but I found that
quite challenging.
But I think the fact you haveto recertify, and particularly
with the CFI thing, because it'sa document that constantly
(13:55):
updates every new edition and ittakes the communities and the
scientific process, if you likecan update, then you're
guaranteed when you come torecertify on it.
There's new questions regardingthe new NFPA 921 as opposed to
the old one.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
So I think that's, I think, the other thing just
springing to mind.
If you see MSC or PhD, peopledon't know what my MSC's in it
could be in anything, Whereas ifI see CFI or CHFP whatever it
is, Chartered ForensicPractitioner, brackets FIRE.
At least you're aware ofsomeone's looks or involved in
fire investigation, rather thananything else.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Yeah, and again I think we were just chatting off,
let, we were just chewing thefuzz before we came on air.
But there is a change.
I think we both agree.
I think there's a change inperception towards not
necessarily I mean, if you'vegot a phd and it's in fire
investigation, with fire scienceor something that's fantastic I
think there's a changing ethosin the industry towards
practitioners, people who'vebeen there and done that and
actually done it practically, asopposed to people who may have
a phd from oxford or cambridgebut prior to that date never
been to a fire scene or a crimescene in their life.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
So it's going to say that that was a topic because I
was at I was at morton only lastweek actually teaching on a
level five course, and thatoften comes up.
And it came up again where wedo a short session on court
skills, giving evidence.
The same question is always, isalways asked Sorry, my first FI
could be a criminal, fire couldbe in Crown Court.
And I come in court and theopposing expert is, like you say
, oxford educated PhD, how do Icompete with that?
(15:19):
And the answer is always thesame Do not for one second
underestimate your fire servicepractical experience.
Academics won't have.
Like you say, phds is great,and and so my msc.
I'm proud of it, but to havethe practical fire service
experience alongside that, it'sinvaluable, it really is
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
I think it complements each other.
And also I find again I don'twant to be dispersing of
academics in that point of viewbut I find that we as
practitioners and in the public,I just find that we're all
hands-on sort of people becauseof the nature of our role,
because it takes it in a way andwe tend to have a hands-on
approach to things and actuallya discovery thing, and I think
(15:59):
sometimes it's a bit of reversepsychology, as you think.
Well, I could be up against aphd from oxford or cambridge and
therefore I need to 100% bottomout cause and origin and that
kind of stuff.
So I think it makes youactually work a little bit
harder.
But yeah, I think it's aninteresting dial.
Now you've been around for longenough and I've certainly.
The first ever fire scene Iever went to as a CSI was about
(16:22):
2001 I think, and it was amassive fire and we had all the
forensic science service wereout.
At that time.
They were still in existenceand we had all the forensic
science service were out.
At that time they were still inexistence and we had a couple
of the well-known kind ofcontractors out and it was a
very different time then than itwas now Very different kind of
philosophy, if I can say it thatway.
But yeah, anyway, I'm talkingtoo much for a change.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
But one isn't better than the other.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I'll just say what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
We learn from each other, which is what this is all
about.
But also they complement eachother, so you've got both things
right, but one isn't betterthan the other.
But having been a fighter forso many years before I became an
fi, certainly been in fires.
I've put fires out and know howthey behave and I've seen it
and that helps it does help.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
yeah, and I picked up as well, just when I was doing
the research, about your time atjaguar land rover jaguar, about
your apprenticeship.
I was going to ask because alot of people like Rossi and
other people are electricians aswell or have been electricians,
and I think that adds benefitbecause you should know how
things should be, how thingsactually go in.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
So I think I went and qualified as an electrician for
that reason.
So I did my electricalqualifications about five years
ago and still go out andpractice as an electrician,
albeit not regularly.
I do enough to maintain mycertification, which, going back
to what we were talking aboutbefore, I have to recertify
every year and my annualinspections next month actually.
So, having that, I'm a sparky,I understand electrics, and then
(17:42):
when I'm investigatingelectrical fire, I've got that
behind me yeah, brilliant, and Ithink that's great.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
And I was talking to james acott last episode.
It's not come out yet, but wewere talking he's qualified to
install solar panels.
You know that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
And don't get me wrong the day I think I know
everything is the day I need toleave.
Yeah, definitely.
There'll always be a job whereI don't know something and I'll
pick up the phone.
I'll ask someone that does yeah, fantastic, all right, mate.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Well, listen, let's get onto your msc, because
that's what I tend to use youfor, especially at cranfield.
So tell us about your mscthesis and just give us a brief
overview, and then we'll getinto some of the specifics so I
was again fortunate enough to beoffered a msc place back in.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
I think it would have been 2012 when we started got
my degree in 14, so it took acouple of years and after we'd
done a couple of units that wewere expected to do, add that to
my credited prior learning itbecame we're faced now I've got
to do a project dissertation, soI was thinking what am I going
to do?
I decided that, unsurprisingly,that I need to pick a subject
(18:44):
that I'm interested in, becauseif I'm not interested in it, I'm
just going through the motions.
It's just gonna not work.
I can't like wing an MScdissertation.
I've winged a lot of things inlife, mate, but I don't think I
could wing that.
So I thought I need to picksomething that I'm interested in
but also isn't going to be toodifficult to get the data from.
So, thankfully, west Middscertainly then, and I'm sure
still do maintained a reallycomprehensive library of past
(19:09):
cases, so every fire death youcould go basically pull a file
off a shelf and get all thedetails that you wanted,
including the report, sogenerally the photographs it was
all there.
So I thought why not exploit?
You might go and look at theodd job, but I don't think it
was ever looked at in anymassive detail.
So I thought, okay, what we'regoing to look at.
So I've got all thisinformation and all this data
(19:30):
sat in this story and what we'regoing to research, and I can't
remember why it was.
I chose suicide, not the mostpleasant, joyful subject, but it
grabbed my interest.
I don't know why, but it did so.
I thought, okay, I'm going toresearch suicide, and I think I
set out with the intention totry and understand why someone
would decide to end their lifeby setting themselves on fire
rather than the methods morecommon methods, such as hanging
(19:53):
or poisoning or whatever.
So I started to look at it andthought, okay, what's the point
of what I'm trying to achieve?
So, like I say, I set out withthe intention of trying to
understand why someone wouldchoose that method as opposed to
other methods, and then thesecond kind of motivation was to
try then and hopefully come outthe other side with some.
These are the commonalities, orthis is what we frequently see
(20:14):
at a suicide fire scene, which Ithought might be useful to fire
investigators, because we don'tsee them very often and since I
left, west means I've not hadany, so the last two years I've
not been to one.
I don't think the service hashad one either my service, but
so you can see how infrequentthey are, which is reflected by
the lack of information outthere.
So anyway, that's what I decidedto do and I say I had access to
(20:37):
all the data, so I picked a 20year.
It was 20 year range.
I looked at all the suicidesthat had been recorded.
So, to be clear, suicidesconcluded or back then it was
avertedverted.
But now it's a conclusion by acoroner, so the coroner was
happy or had concluded that thisdeath was a suicide.
There were a few files I cameacross where it looked like a
(20:59):
suicide, but there wasinsufficient information for the
coroner to rule suicide andinstead it was either open
verdicts or, I think,misadventure.
So I only looked at deaths thatwere recorded as a suicide and
in that 20-year period, whichwas from 1993, I think, to 2013,
I can't remember, sorry, mate Ithink it was 43 cases in that
(21:20):
time period.
So I've got 43 cases of suicidein a 20-year period in the West
Midlands.
What am I going to look at?
So I decided to look at theobvious things, such as the sex
of the person, the age, and thenproduce a list and include
other things, such as where thesuicide was in relation to where
they lived, time of the day,the day of the week, the month,
(21:41):
and then whether an accelerantwas used.
Was there any history of mentalhealth carbon monoxide levels,
which was quite an interestingone, so that sort of thing.
Really.
The MSC started out with theresearch of what was out there
and there's a lot of researchthat's been done about suicide
in the Middle East and the morepublicised cases of immolation,
(22:02):
where people set themselves onfire as a protest and again,
those that know me will probablysmile because we often hear the
term self-immolation, whichisn't unless that person has
immolated, which is to sacrificethemselves in general to make a
protest.
So someone typically will walkinto a middle of a market square
and set themselves on fire in aprotest very public, to make a
(22:23):
point.
That's immolation.
But a suicide where someonetakes their own life because
they're depressed isn't animmolation.
But a suicide where someonetakes their own life because
they're depressed isn't animmolation.
So I kind of said we perhapsneed to request midlands at the
time we're classifying them asself immolations, where actually
every single case I looked atwasn't an immolation, it was a
suicide.
But that's just maybe pinnaclereally.
Yeah, so look at all thosefactors and then for, obviously,
(22:46):
sex time of day, I had all thatdata and then, as I went down
the list.
Things like carbon monoxidewasn't always available and
history of depression wasn'talways available, but I got
enough data to form a bit of apicture of what was going on and
that's what I decided to do, soembarked on that and it took me
nearly two years to finish it.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yeah, so like self-immolation, then that's
sort of the very famous kind ofBuddhist monk in the middle of
the market protesting againstwhatever he's protesting against
.
But that's not technicallyself-immolation, that is a
self-immolation.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah, mr Bouazizi, who committed suicide in Tunisia
, who's kind of been the reasongiven for the Arab Spring and
what happened in the Middle East, because he was being
persecuted.
I've had enough of this, I needto make a stand.
And he poured petrol overhimself in a market square and
killed himself to make a pointand to raise the awareness of
what's going on.
That is an immolation.
(23:39):
I say suicides, where people doon their own away from home
because they're depressed, I sayisn't by definition an
immolation.
I've said that when people gowell, but we know what you mean.
Self-immolation I know what youmean, but it's technically not
correct.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
And we had that American guy, the UK Air Force
guy, recently, wasn't he?
That was last year, I think, soafter Israel and all that kind
of issues.
But yeah, okay.
So in terms of like for fireinvestigations, then what are
the trends?
What are we looking for, bothfrom a coroner's point of view
and also maybe from a crimescene point of view?
Is there something that an FIshould be looking for?
(24:16):
Is there any trends about timeof days, as you've mentioned,
that sort of criteria thatyou've set out?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yes, one of my aims was to try and identify why
someone might choose that method.
In a nutshell, I wasn't able to.
Clearly, you can't speak topeople and the people that have
ever tried to do and weresuccessful I've never got access
to that and obviously thosewere successful can't ask them.
My own theory, perhaps, is thatif you pour petrol over
yourself and it's generallypetrol, I'll come on to that
shortly but if you pour petrolover yourself and set yourself
(24:44):
on fire, there isn't really anycoming back from that.
I don't know whether it's maybebecause once I do this, even if
I change my mind, it's going tohappen.
I don't know.
But in terms of fire scenes,mate, what was interesting was
that carbon monoxide was acompletely unreliable measure.
So I had carbon monoxide levelsthat ranged from two percent to
(25:08):
, I think, 85% in people thathad basically poured fuel over
themselves.
So when you're looking atcarbon monoxide as an indicator
as to whether that may indicatesuicide or not, entirely
unreliable, what's more reliableis the use of a liquid
accelerant or ignitable liquid,should I say so, petrol being
the most common, which is nogreat surprise because it's
(25:28):
cheap, readily available, youcan get your hands on it quite
easily.
So my research at leastindicated that if you're at a
fire scene where someone's beenset on fire and there's not a
liquid accelerant or, sorry,ignitable liquid, that would be
strange.
So what I found because it wasin the high 80%, it was up to
90% people that did commitsuicide through fire used an
(25:50):
ignitable liquid, and again, itwas generally petrol, but
without an ignitable liquid.
I'm not saying it isn't asuicide, don't get me wrong.
It's just something to be awareof.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
So just to clarify, you're saying like 80%, 90% of
suicides involve ignitableliquid.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah.
And then the last one is fairlyobvious really.
But if I'm not finding anignition source at a fatal fire
where it's perceived to be asuicide, then unless someone's
used a single match, for example, then again I went to great
lengths through the reports tomake sure that the ignition
source was found.
Again, I'm not saying if youdon't find the ignition source
(26:25):
it can't be a suicide.
That's not what I'm saying.
But it was prevalent at most ofthe scenes I investigated.
In the rest of it though, mate,there's no great surprises.
It was white men in their 50sand 60s were overrepresented,
more males and females, but interms of times of day, day,
month, no pattern.
That's really the take-homekind of answers I've got from
(26:45):
what I've carried out.
And again, it's 10 years oldnow, so if I've got the time I'd
like to.
And again, it's 10 years oldnow.
So if I've got the time I'dquite like to do it again, but
if it's changed, whether thathappens I'm not sure.
Well, when you retire from thefire service, maybe I think my
wife might have some plans forthat instead, and my kids.
But no, it would be interesting.
But again, I'd be eveninterested to know whether
suicide by virus even has on theincrease or the decrease or
(27:07):
it's stayed the same.
I might look at that perhaps.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Did you see any trends over those 20 years?
I guess you saw a trend inreporting style maybe Not really
mate, to be honest.
Okay, that's good to know.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
I remember rightly, the suicide generally, I think,
was on the increase.
At the time I did my research.
The trend line for suicide wasthe same, just springtime.
There was an odd observation inthat one particular year, I
think west midlands, when overthat time period we're averaging
two, three, maybe four a year,and then one year it was, I want
to say, six or seven.
(27:39):
I know previous guests havedone research, have offered to
share their dissertation, whichI'm more than happy to do
fantastic and make it available.
It's online somewhere, but ifyou want it I'll gladly it.
But there was a spike one yearit was the same year where one
of the big soaps I think it wasCoronation Street or something
they had a suicide and I thinkit was by fire, and it spiked
the same year.
Now I don't know whether it wascopycat, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
But it was interesting that that correlated
with that.
Yeah, definitely, and TV andall that doesn't play around.
I'm watching the, just as alittle aside.
I'm watching the Mendez murdersof the two brothers and
apparently they murdered theirparents because they watched a
movie about killing theirparents, one of the instigators
for the crime itself.
So I think definitely what wesee around us and springs to
(28:22):
mind in people's ideas, what yousaid about the obviously
finding the ignition source,that's sort of bread and butter
stuff for us, but maybe csis andfirst fis I think it's really
important to actually make sureyou excavate and make sure you
try and find that what sort ofignition sources were typical
generally lighters, but onoccasions where it's matches,
(28:42):
you would find the box ofmatches close by.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
They keep saying the same thing, really.
I make the point that justbecause what I'm saying, it
doesn't mean it is or it isn't.
But if you find a match on itthat there's no ignition source
and someone, for example's got abox of matches and taken one
out and then driven somewherewith that single match, that
would be just not consistentwith what I found.
Yeah, sure, what you alluded to.
Just then.
It stems back to fi.
(29:06):
Generally, if you go to a scenewhere you see a body and there's
a can of petrol next to it andyou've got to be careful of bias
here and think, well, clearlythey must have killed themselves
.
Well, we should be going intothese scenes, as you well know
that.
Well, no, we need to rule outsomeone else hasn't done this,
because it's entirely possibleif someone else has done this,
then the ignition source mayhave been taken away by the
(29:26):
perpetrator.
Exactly, finding an ignitionsource at a so-called or
apparent suicide for me is quiteimportant.
Well, it's very important.
So we need to keep that openmind and make sure we look
properly and do our detailedexaminations.
We would for any fire yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
I mean, just as we were chatting my cynical from my
background, I was thinkingabout all the fires that were
undetermined, or suicides thatwere the coroner couldn't rule
on positively as a suicide.
I'd like to look at those ones.
I'd like to go back and seethose ones yeah, there is that
sensation.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Go back and think, oh , not just in suicide, but not
quite a few fires off.
When I started out in fithinking yeah, couple spring to
mind I just thought did I do thebest I could have done?
I did my best at the time.
But you'd quite like to go backin time sometimes and go I'd
have done that job differentlynow and would I have come out
with a different conclusion.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Sure, yeah.
I mean, I had a little bit ofan argument with someone on
LinkedIn the other day abouthindsight and hindsight's a
fantastic thing.
It's that's the best, isn't it?
It's all very well when, yeah,exactly when you've got another
police force that comes in oranother fire service comes in,
they've got weeks and weeks toreview the investigation and
stuff and you've had maybe twoor three days to actually do
(30:39):
yours.
So always, uh, hindsight'salways a wonderful thing, mate.
Let's move on to sort of any.
Unfortunately, we're startingto move towards the time, but
you obviously do a massiveamount of education.
You're involved with the fireservice college and that kind of
stuff.
So what would be your top tipsas a fire investigator?
Have you learned any majorthings over the?
Is there a certain thing thatyou would recommend, or there's
(31:00):
a certain lesson that youlearned early on?
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Well, I learn every day.
I know that sounds a little bitsickly, but it is true.
And when I teach on the fireinvestigation course at Morton,
we open with saying look, it maywell be us standing at the
front of the classroom talkingto you guys, but we learn
equally off you.
There'll be experiences thatyou've had, things you've seen,
things you've learned that Iwon't be aware of, so please
share.
We encourage that kind of twoway it works and I learn lots,
(31:28):
way it works and I learn lots.
Top tips now.
I would say one of the bestpieces of advice I ever had was
once you think you've finished ascene, then you haven't quite
finished, because what you needto do now is go and sit in the
van or the car or on the wall ofthe garden and have a cup of
tea and just go through the joband think have I done the best I
can?
Have I not been lazy if I'vedone everything?
And then I used to carry aswing brigade user proforma,
don't know, for yeah, no see figsort of stuff yeah, I
(31:50):
personally don't like that.
I carry one because it's auseful proforma and I'll go
through that proforma at the endto make sure I've not forgotten
anything.
So I know, have I?
I haven't taken a photograph ofthe gas meter or I haven't
tested the cooker or whatever.
So I would certainly recommendand it's worked for me is to go
when you think you've finished,go and have a brew, get a tea on
(32:10):
and go through the job andthink what have I done?
Have I done the best I can andwhat am I like to be challenged
on?
Because, fast forward tostanding in a witness box, what
they're going to ask me, whatwould I ask myself if I was
opposing myself?
Certainly, certainly that.
And then I would also and thisis, we just mentioned hindsight.
When I first started as an FI inthe fire service, I didn't
(32:32):
really have an appreciation, ifI'm honest, of what the private
sector's up against in terms ofinvestigating fires.
That happened days, weeks,months, before I've now got into
a.
I think it's a good habit and Itry and share this is that if
you're at scene, bear in mindthere is someone probably, or
there could be someone,following you in a week or a
(32:52):
month, be a little bit courteousto those people and if I can
explain in a way that allowsthem to look, rather than just
pile it up in the front lawn orthe front back garden, for
someone then to have to sitthrough it and work out what was
where, I'll try and recreatenot recreate the scene
necessarily, but if I can I will.
But certainly if I findsomething important, I'll put
(33:13):
that aside and so that someonecan come onto a scene and find
it, they can call me and I'llsay, yeah, that pile's come from
that room, that pile's comefrom that room, et cetera.
Because my experience has shownthat actually I might come away
from the scene, not really havethe answer.
A private FI goes in after meand they do get the answer and
we're willing to shareinformation because a private
investigator can maybe getthings paid for that I can't in
(33:35):
the public sector.
If I want the CCTV analysed orthe fire alarm panel analysed,
then I can't, and they can byhelping them out.
That's paid dividends in thepast for me, because they then
shared that with me.
I think having a regard for theprivate sector is probably one
of the things I've learned,certainly having moved into the
private sector as well.
But yeah, I think it's justtaking your time and, like other
(33:55):
people have said, I woulditerate what I think Steve
Andrews said and a few otherpeople If you ever get the
opportunity to go and set firesand stuff, go and do it, because
on the morning course we setthe scenes up and watching fires
behave is fantastic and really,really valuable.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Yeah, definitely.
I think the burn to learn kindof mentality is second to none
and once you see it, I mean Ilearn by watching, by learning,
by observing, as opposed tobeing taught loads of theory,
and so you can teach me amorning theory and then that's
how I try to do things.
I always try and do somepractical in the afternoon which
(34:31):
demonstrates what the conceptsI'm trying to get over in the
morning type thing.
But I think by doing that sortof burn to learn process it
sinks in much better.
And also, fire is a funny thing, isn't?
Speaker 2 (34:36):
it acts in different ways in different ventilation
conditions and understandingsort of fundamental, as opposed
to some of the commonperceptions, I guess, of how
fire behaves and even I've beendoing this a long time now and
even last week we one of theburns perceptions, I guess, of
how fire behaves and even havingbeen doing this a long time now
and even last week.
One of the burns we did atMorton last week was deliberate
fire.
It was a liquid accelerant.
It took ages to get going.
The accelerant took obviouslyquite well, but then it slowed
(34:57):
down and we're clock-watching,thinking if you weren't here to
witness this, you'd have justassumed it was because it was
accelerated.
It would have gone quickly andit didn't.
And sometimes the distance thatglass will travel when it fails
because of a fire, so it's notbeen broken because of force,
it's genuinely broken because ofheat.
It falls out and it can roll along way and you thought I'd
never have put that there.
It's certainly really, reallyvaluable to get the opportunity
(35:20):
If anyone's listening to go outon a burn, then take the
opportunity, I think as well.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
I learned a valuable lesson.
I went to gardeners, I wasdoing something with itv and we
set up a burn and where we setup the burn the burn patterns
did not match at all in any way,shape or form the area of
origin.
It was quite, a veryinteresting kind of exercise
because I thought I know wherewe've lit it and the burn
patterns just didn't match thatat all.
And that was all to do withventilation effects.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
But yeah, fantastic we sometimes have the
opportunity actually, becauseobviously setting up a burn at
morton or anywhere else it's aknown outcome, so you know where
the fire started.
So sometimes I'll say to theguys well, don't tell me what
you're doing, let me have a lookafterwards.
But if I'm really wrong, justdon't tell me.
I just don't laugh too loudit's good to go, and well, I
(36:04):
think it started there.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
And on and on outcome fire, yeah, and I think that
just to come back on theprevious point about liaison
between the private sector hasresources available, because
it's all about the financesreally at the end of the day on
the private side and insuranceand stuff, and I think they will
go to those extra lengths wherepublic sector might not
necessarily have the cash toactually do it.
I fully encourage.
(36:26):
I've said this many times.
To be honest with you, I'venever had a bad experience with
a fire service.
I've always been very helpfulwhen I've approached them from a
private side and in courtesyand return to that I always
offer a bit of CPD or somethingelse.
If I've got information I canshare, no problem.
I tend to.
About your digging out point, Ialways tend to take a cheap
tarpaulin, just the smallesttarpaulin, stick it all on the
(36:48):
tarpaulin, whoever comes behindme.
If they come behind me they cansee where I've excavated.
They can see where I'veexcavated and it's all in one
area for them, so that they kindof know where it's come from.
So I always find that usefuland I've always found that
useful when other people do itfor me.
Nothing worse to come to ascene and somebody else has been
there before and there's just amile of a massive pile of fire
(37:09):
debris and you have no ideawhere it's come from.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
It's quite easy not to do that, so why would you?
Speaker 1 (37:14):
yeah, exactly what's next for you then, james?
What's next on the agenda?
Obviously you're still in theservice.
You're doing a bit on theprivate.
What's your plans?
Ambitions for the next step Idon't know, mate.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Really I've.
Really I can retire in justover three years now, and two
years ago I didn't think for asecond I would be a stage
commander in a different service.
So I don't know, mate.
I thought about promotion again, perhaps, and that's something
I probably will end up doing Interms of FI.
I've got no intention offinishing FI.
As long as I'll keep going aslong as I can.
I think there is a shelf lifefor well.
(37:44):
I feel like there's a shelflife for myself.
Put it that way when, once I'veleft the service, I'm not
practicing.
As long as I keep going in theprivate sector, then I'll go as
long as I can.
I genuinely enjoy teaching aswell, more than particularly,
and recently started helping outwith Martin at Firewise, and I
do enjoy teaching, I really do.
So I can see that carrying on.
I enjoy the IFE, volunteeringwith the exams Pretty much what
(38:07):
I'm doing already.
To be honest, mate, I'll goback to what I said before.
Mate, I've been paid to do ahobby for 27 years, yeah, and I
value that.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
As long as that can carry on, I'll be happy.
I mean, that's why I kind ofwent from CSI to FI, because FI,
to me, is the ultimatechallenge in a way, because
you're looking for forensicevidence.
You're looking for origin andcause, but you're looking for
forensic.
There's obviously been a fire,so that makes it even more
difficult, so it's even more ofa challenge.
And that's what really, as yousay, I think once your passion
goes for it, it's probably timefor you to do maybe something
(38:38):
else.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
I think everyone that's seen that fire would
probably agree one thing that ifyou're not passionate about it
then you've got to stop, becauseif you don't enjoy it it could
be a horrible job.
Yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
It's not a particularly pleasant job, is it
?
Speaker 2 (38:49):
No, it's not.
No, no, there's something aboutit.
We obviously like, don't we?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Well, listen, mate, it's been absolutely fantastic
having you on.
We took a little while to gethere, with our schedules and
bits and pieces, but I'm reallygrateful that you came on and
you've got a massive amount ofexperience and you've got as I
say, you've got a lot of fingersin some really good enterprises
and bits and pieces.
So again, mate, thanks forcoming on.
You're more than welcome, mate,thanks for having me.
All right, no problem, cheers,mate, cheers, mate.
(39:17):
Hey, thank you for listening toCSI on Fire.
Please don't forget to like,subscribe and suggest future
topics on our webpage.
Don't forget to like, subscribeand suggest future topics on
our webpage.
Remember factor non-verbal.
Take care, good hunting.
I hope to see you on the nextone.
(39:37):
Cheers.
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