September 3, 2024 • 39 mins
What does it take, to transition from a Thames Valley Police Crime Scene Investigator to a Full time Fire investigator with Essex Fire and Rescue Service?
Jessica offers an illuminating comparison between the police force and the fire service, highlighting the differences in workplace culture, rank systems, and public interactions. Learn about the supportive, collaborative environment within the fire service, and the importance of cross-departmental knowledge sharing and continuous professional development. This episode also reveals how fire service training methodologies and welfare provisions at major scenes contribute to a more welcoming atmosphere and better public perception.
Jessica's path is a compelling narrative of perseverance, strategic career moves, and the pivotal moments that sparked her interest in fire investigation, including a university lecture and a memorable container burn demonstration.
We further explore the intricate details of fire investigation accreditation and the role of autonomy in handling cases from start to finish.
Jessica discusses the challenges and rewarding aspects of getting ISO accreditation for fire services and the benefits of leveraging university partnerships for professional growth. Ideal for anyone passionate about fire investigation, this episode provides rich insights into the pathways and opportunities within this fascinating field, underscored by Jessica's personal experiences and aspirations for expanding her team.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, welcome to CSI on Fire, the podcast that takes
you behind the scenes of thefire investigation community.
I'm your host, mike Moulden,and episode after episode, we'll
attempt to excavate the oftendifficult but always fascinating
world of the fire investigator.
Okay, welcome to CSI on Fire,your fire investigation podcast.
(00:27):
We've had a little bit of abreak over the summer holiday
and we're going to be moving topublication every two weeks, but
we've got a fantastic guest onfor you today Jessica Pierce.
Jess I hope it's okay to callyou Jess.
Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
More than happy with Jess hiya.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Good, Now listen, Jess.
You and I know each other for alittle while, but take us
through your background.
Just tell us a little bit aboutyourself before we get into the
podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
So I'm a current fire investigator with Essex Fire
and Rescue Service.
I am at the moment their onlyGreen Book member of staff.
I've just started the newdedicated team.
I moved over in March of thisyear from working as a CSI with
Thames Valley Police of thisyear.
From working as a CSI withThames Valley Police.
Before that I did my master'sdegree at Cranfield and I did my
undergrad at Nottingham Trentin Forensic Science where I did
(01:12):
a placement year with the Fireand Rescue Service in
Nottinghamshire.
I also did a year study abroadin Canada with them.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Okay, fantastic.
So we were just chatting beforewe came on air and I think I've
gone from CSI, cs, fi, but I'vegone from public sector to
private sector.
As far as I'm aware, you'repretty much unique in that
you're the only one that I knowthat's gone from CSI, public
sector to then FI.
What's your motivation?
Why FI?
Have you always been interestedin FI?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
One of the first lectures I remember doing at uni
for NTU was we had one of theguys out who came and did a
container burn for us as part ofour first sort of like forensic
input module and basically forthat first year all we really
did was write a statement onlike, watching it develop, and
we were using our writingmethods for getting information
(02:00):
into statements and making surethat we were writing facts into
our statements, and from there Isort of loved the fire
development side of it.
We had Dave Koss come down.
He showed us some of the stuffthat the dogs did.
I then went off and studied inCanada for my second year, which
was absolutely amazing.
We got to do some like reallyinteresting modules that we
wouldn't have done in Englandand while I was over there they
(02:21):
were putting out all of theseemails saying for placement
years.
So I was starting to apply forrandom placements.
So I applied for a couple ofpolice ones, some lab based ones
, and then I saw theNottinghamshire Fire Service one
come up and I thought, oh, thatwould be really interesting.
Like fire investigation isreally.
Fire was really cool.
Who doesn't like fire?
I put in for it, thinking oh,I'm not in the country, but it's
(02:43):
a great opportunity if I cancome back and maybe it's an
extra thing I could do.
And less than 24 hours aftergetting back in the country,
after being in Canada for a year, I had an interview for it.
So I was so jet lagged and Iwalked into the interview and
the team were absolutelyincredible.
The interview went really great.
Literally, later that afternoonthey offered me the placement
to go and work with them for theyear and it was the best year
(03:05):
I've ever had.
It was so good.
We got to go out to so manyjobs.
I got to work with the police.
So I did a placement with thepolice while I was with the fire
service, worked with so manydifferent departments within the
fire service and went out to somany really interesting jobs
that it was just yeah.
As soon as I went back to uni, Iwas like fi is really what I
want to do.
I did my undergrad thesis onsome of the work that I'd done
(03:27):
while I was on placement, sothey had me look into some
electrical stuff while I was onplacement with them helping them
out.
So I then took that to uni andstarted doing some testing so
that I could get somephotographs to go with the work
that I'd done with them and tookthat to them, sent that to them
.
But whilst I was still doing myfinal year at uni, I was still
popping in and doing theoccasional day, especially
during like holidays and stuff.
(03:47):
I was going and working withthem and keeping up that input
with them.
And then it came to me leavinguni and I didn't really know
what I wanted to do.
But I knew that fire wassomething I wanted.
But getting into private sectorcoming straight out of uni is
like almost impossible.
I'd applied for a couple ofsort of lab-based jobs but I
knew that that wasn't reallywhat I wanted to do.
And then I saw Cranfield'sExplosives Masters and I was
(04:11):
like, well, it's not fire, butit's the next best, really
interesting thing.
There was a couple of firemodules.
So I was like you know what?
I'll just apply for it, wentfor that, got the master's
degree, came out of it andcouldn't get into FI again.
I had a couple of interviewswith a couple of private
companies and they were like wejust want someone with a bit
more experience and I thoughtthe best way to get some
experience would be going intoCSI.
(04:32):
It was something I also reallyenjoyed.
I didn't really like the ideaof labs because I didn't like
the idea of staying inside doingthe same thing day in, day out.
Got into CSI.
It took a long time to get intoCSI.
I think I interviewed about 1520 times.
Every application I would getthrough to the interview process
, but all of them were, so itwas like a really difficult
(04:53):
interview process to get through.
It was probably the 15th oddtime that I got the phone call
going.
You're second, but we knowwe've got another person who's
going to be dropping out withinthe next six months.
So you're on that list.
The job will go to you if youwant it.
And within two weeks they wentyep, they've handed their notice
in.
We can start your applications.
So joined up with them and aspart of starting from there, as
(05:17):
you progress, you get to go tomore and more stuff, and it was
always those fire jobs that I'dbe like, yeah, I'll go to, or if
there was anything going onwith fire and stuff.
So we had a couple of the UCASbits talking to some of the fire
guys here and I'd be like, yeah, I'll volunteer to go to that
because of having that fireinput beforehand, when there
were fire jobs going on andpeople weren't 100% sure they
(05:38):
would come to me and they'd askme to go with them to the jobs
and give them that informationand it just built it up and it
just reminded me that, yes, Iloved the CSI job and it was
fantastic, the best experience,but FI is always going to be the
thing.
So while I was still doing that, there was like a couple of
times where I'd apply likeBurgoyne's would put out
applications from time to timeand I'd just send them off and
(05:58):
I'd get to the interviews andthen they'd be like we just want
someone with a little bit moreexperience.
And then it got to October lastyear and I saw the Essex job
come up and I thought you knowwhat?
I'll just apply on the offchance, won't think anything of
it, took a couple of months andI didn't hear anything.
So I completely forgot about it.
I got an email inviting me tothe interview.
It was about a week beforehandand they were like we just need
(06:19):
a presentation right in and comedown to the interview and we'll
have a bit of a chat.
And at that point in time I'dcompletely forgotten about it.
So I panicked massively, wrotethe presentation and went down
to the interview the nightbeforehand.
I'd been on call at work andmanaged to literally I finished.
I got called out.
I finished at four o'clock inthe morning and then the
following day at nine o'clock Iended up at an interview and I
(06:41):
went in and I went I'm so sorry,I'm absolutely exhausted and
the interview went absolutelyfantastically and I came out of
it going yeah, I know I got thatjob and it's been fantastic
ever since.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Fantastic.
I mean just to come back to afew things you mentioned there.
You've had to move about, soyou're originally from
Nottinghamshire and you've moveddown to Essex.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Now I was born and raised in the Midlands, went to
uni in Nottinghamshire becausemy parents turned around and
went this is a circle around ouraddress and you have to go to
uni outside that circle.
So I went up to Nottinghamshire.
So my mum did her uni up inNotts and my aunt lives up in
Derbyshire, so it's sort of aplace in the country that I
really like.
But it was a completeaccidental fluke ending up doing
(07:20):
forensics.
But yeah, then when I got thejob after doing uni, went to
Cranfield so moved down toWiltshire and then it was sort
of a wherever I get a CSI jobI'm willing to move to.
So my first CSI job was basedout of Milton Keynes so I moved
to Buckinghamshire and thenmoved to Aylesbury with Thames
Valley.
Now I've got the job in Essex.
So at the moment I'm stillliving in Buckinghamshire.
(07:41):
The plan is to move.
It's a bit of a commute at theminute.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, I think that's something to say.
I mean, I talk to a lot ofuniversity students and they're
all desperate for jobs and, asyou sort of described it, it's
quite difficult no-transcriptyou out wherever they can.
(08:15):
Fantastic.
You mentioned about you beingjust for the non-fire
firefighters and the fireservice.
You mentioned about a greenbook.
Do you just want to tell meabout what the green book is, or
tell listeners what the greenbook is?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
yeah, so I'm basically a civilian member of
staff, so I don't have to do so.
For the firefighters who moveover into fi, they have to keep
up their firefightercompetencies.
A couple of times a month theygo out on a truck.
They keep up their competencies, whereas I have come in like a
civilian.
It's basically what a csi inpolice, so I would be a civilian
member of staff for both and aspart of that I'm able to attend
(08:48):
, but I don't have anymanagement capabilities at that
fire scene.
So I might be the most seniorrank, but my rank doesn't count
towards anything.
But still I'm able to go and doeverything that they would do
other than put out a fire,basically.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Sure, and we chatted just before we started.
I want to sort of talk aboutthe transition from public
sector to public sector.
How have you found that?
Have you found the two?
Obviously, police is verydifferent than fire service, but
what is the difference?
How have you found that?
Has that been an easytransition?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
a lot of issues with, like, the rank system there and
people wouldn't necessarilytake you seriously because you
were a civilian member of staff.
You would sometimes have theissues between the higher
ranking police officers and thencivilian members of staff, but
it wasn't so much of an issue,it was when you were moving out
of area.
If you knew the officers theywould all be fine.
But if you were moving becausewe covered quite a massive area
with Thames Valley Police if youwould be going from
(09:50):
Buckinghamshire all the way downto the bottom end of Berkshire
and they didn't really know youbut they'd had a badish like bad
time with a CSI or somebodypreviously, then they'd always
sort of hold a bit of resentment.
But I've had none of that withfire service moving into fire.
People understand that you knowmore.
You're not necessarily knowmore about the firefighting side
, but you've come in with all ofthat knowledge.
(10:10):
And come in with that becauseyou wouldn't have got the job if
you didn't have the knowledgein the background to cover it.
I've worked with so as part ofour team we've got three of us
on the dedicated team, so myline manager and then another
guy who moved in at the sametime as I did, and he's been in
firefighting BA trainer so heknows a lot about fire
development and gettinginformation from him is great.
(10:31):
And then we have flexi officers,so they are station managers
who do a bolt-on with the fireinvestigation so as part of
their day duties they'll pickthat up.
I was a little bit concernedcoming in because everybody's
male I'm the only female in thedepartment now and I was a
little bit concerned that comingin as a female as a green book,
that it would cause some issues.
But all of them are absolutelyfantastic.
(10:52):
They're like we understand thatyou've got the knowledge from
the CSI coming in and, beingprobably the youngest on the
team, I also have the IT skillsthat they don't necessarily have
, so they're all quite happy tophone me up and come to me if
they've got any issues and Ifind that that really like.
I feel like I've massively beenwelcomed in to the team as well
.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah, obviously I was in police service for some time
, also as a civilian.
But I always think it alwaysamazes me if I go back and I do
some reviews and bits and pieces.
Now they kind of respect me forall the time I've spent, but in
force they would rather have.
I guess it's a risk managementthing, maybe that SIOs would
prefer to go out to, say, anexternal forensic service
provider because in a certainway that covers their arse in a
(11:31):
way, as opposed to having itinternal.
They're ultimately responsiblefor it.
But I think it's fantastic.
I mean, I've never had a badexperience with a fire service
ever Major scenes and stuff.
I remember we're getting intothe CSI side of things, but I
remember being at major scenesand it was the fire service used
to provide us with food andwelfare et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
All day, every day, I think in my entire time working
for the police.
I think I had maybe one or twomeals bought for me by the
police when I'd been down atscene for like 18 odd hours Fire
service.
You don't even need to be afire service worker and they'll
bring you food they bring youdrinks.
It's also the perception ofmembers of the public, I found
is massively different as well.
I remember the last set of bigmurders.
(12:12):
I worked in TVP, like this timelast year, and it was
absolutely boiling out and wewere all in our scene suits and
it was horrible and a couple ofmembers of the public would come
up and they'd bring us colddrinks and ice creams and stuff
but they would literally drop,drop it and run.
They wouldn't want to hangaround and talk because they
don't want to be seen to betalking to police, whereas fire,
you'll go out to a job andeverybody.
(12:34):
It's so much easier to getinformation from members of the
public when they've seen stuffbecause they'll just come
straight up to you and tell youeverything because they don't
feel that there's going to bethose repercussions.
I think, yeah, it's sodifferent for the public
perception side as well.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Yeah, exactly, I mean I wear firefighters trousers
and shirt and I don't normallywear a tunic but I normally wear
the trousers and I find that,as you rightly said, compared to
being a CSI and you're whites,people are much more willing to
give you information and sharebits and pieces than they are.
So 100% agree with you thatthere's a public perception that
(13:09):
don't talk to the police or theSOCO or the CSI, but it's okay
to have a chat with the fireservice.
So, yeah, 100% agree with that.
Even in the private sector, Iwear that kind of kit just
because one, it's comfortablefor me, because I like the
braces and all that kind ofstuff and slides over the top,
but also just from a, I foundnot being identified as a member
of the police or as a privatesector and having that fire
(13:30):
service sort of trousers on,people are much more willing to
talk to you.
So, just when you've joined, isthere any additional training?
Have you got to be ba trainedor anything like?
What training have they put youthrough?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
so I don't have to be ba trained.
I did while I was working withknots.
I did a couple of bits of BAwith them because one of the
guys on the team is BA training.
When they put their coursesback on at the end of the year I
think the plan is that we'll goand do a couple of bits of fire
development, just practice withthe BA stuff on.
I already had my level five, somy level five fire
investigation I did that throughthe police.
(14:01):
So I did that at the fireservice college with the police.
So TVP sort of insist onputting all of their CSIs
through in case there's anincident where you can't get an
FI out with you from fireservice.
Then you've at least got somebasic knowledge.
They didn't insist that we gotthe certificate, but they
insisted that we went on theweek.
But knowing that FI was thething that I really loved, I
(14:22):
insisted on getting mycertificate.
So I got my report in andgraded and stuff.
I've already done that.
We're also training.
So we have a skills for justiceaccredited level one course for
our tier ones.
I've been training on that andas part of that training on
those I'm getting qualificationsin adult teaching and
assessment as well.
(14:42):
They're also putting me, as ofprobably the start of next month
I'm going on my level threefire safety and I will then get
my level four and level fivefire safety as well brilliant,
okay, fantastic.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
I think it's really important that kind of stuff, to
know what should be there onthe fire safety side, what
barriers should be there, andthat kind of stuff.
I just think that makes usbetter fis at the end of the day
.
Fantastic.
What about you?
I?
It's going to be obvious to youand me in the sense of that,
but maybe not to the listener.
How have you found thetransition of skills?
Obviously you've recognised atthe fire service for your CSI
skills.
Is it difficult now to stepback from that, or do you find
(15:19):
that a problem?
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Massively.
So I went down to a job.
It was my first solo job afterbeing signed off with Essex
because they made me do a littlebit of a competence to check
that I was working to their sortof standards as they should do.
So it was my first proper solojob and my boss came down, but a
little bit after me, just todouble check that I was getting
on okay.
And the CSI turned up and I waslike, oh, can you go and take
your photos and then come backout.
(15:40):
And then I was like and thenI've got this list of questions
like can we check if the suspecthad been arrested?
Can we check if he's got anybleeding injuries?
Can we check this, this?
And I'm like no, that's thecompletely wrong head, that's
not what I need to be thinkingof.
But the CSI turned around andwent.
Actually it's really great tohave you here because I hadn't
thought about half thosequestions, so having that extra
perspective.
So I've been helping one of theother guys who hasn't got his
(16:02):
level five yet, is in theprocess of completing his
everything.
So I've been taking him out tojobs and pointing stuff out and
actually giving him that input.
It's going to make the CSI'sjob easier because we're
preserving stuff for them.
We're highlighting thingsbecause oftentimes we're there
before they are, because we'redeployed out at the time when
the fire's still going, becausewe're allowed to be on scene
(16:22):
when the fire's still burningand we're going to see more of
the fire development, get moreinformation from that than the
CSIs actually need.
So we're oftentimes therebefore them.
So we're highlighting thingsand if we can highlight them
sooner and put them to one sidemake sure nobody's near them and
bits and pieces we'represerving the scene.
So we're going to get betterstuff from that.
For police wise we do CPD daysevery quarter.
(16:44):
So I've been putting input intothat.
But as part of that I've alsobeen writing.
So because of iso and that fun,because I did that as police
and I know that quite wellbecause I did all of the ucas
visits and everything helpedwrite some of the procedures.
I've sort of taken on board theprocedure side of stuff as well
.
So I'm rewriting ouranti-contamination cleaning
(17:06):
notes, procedures, all of thatsort of stuff, reorganizing
everything.
Everybody hates it because I'vecome in and I've just sort of
reorganized everything.
We're not necessarily going forthe ISO, but it puts us in good
stead to show that we'reworking towards it and, having
come from those standardsalready, I know roughly what we
need to be implementing to getthere.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Sure, I mean, it sounds to me like Essex got a
good hire.
They've killed two birds withone stone, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, I've done some input with some of the other
services.
So I was down at Hampshire atthe start of this month giving
them some input into some of theforms and documents that they
were using.
So they've just moved over tothe SFR reporting process.
So I gave them because I've hadthe police input on the SFRs
(17:54):
and I've amended all of Essex'sSFR documents.
So I gave them some input.
I'm heading up to West Midds atthe end of next month to go and
give them some input and go anddo some audits for them.
Great experiences.
It's really good to get aroundand see people and sort of see
what they're working on, whatwe're working on and how we can
all work together and help eachother out.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Sure For those sort of non-UK-based listeners.
Do you want to just describewhat SFR is?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Streamlined Forensic Reporting.
It's a four-step process to getthe forensic information into
the court system as easily andas concisely as possible.
So it's an initial report, isan SFR, which is basically you
write it 24 hours, 48 hoursafter you've gone to an incident
or after you've done a job, andit basically lists off basic
(18:32):
information and your finalconclusion and that is it.
So we'd use those, we get themto the police within 24 hours,
especially if they've got peoplein custody, and they can charge
based off those If they're thengoing to start doing interviews
and questioning off of those.
We then have the SFR 1, which isa bit more detailed but we
still don't go into every singlething, but they can then use
(18:52):
that.
That can then be sent off tocourt and then the prosecution
and defence can raise anyqueries or questions.
They send them back to us andthen we put in what is an SFR 2.
There's two different types.
There's an expert witness and anon-expert witness.
So we use the expert witness,where we write a full report
(19:13):
based off of those questions andqueries that have been raised
to take to court, and that SFR2goes with us to court and that
is basically our witnessstatement.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Yeah, fantastic and summarised so well.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Can you tell?
I've done that a couple oftimes, yeah exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, one of one thing I thought about was when
you mentioned about CSIs and FIsand the difference is that as
an FI now you're there primarilybefore the CSI and the other
thing I think that you getaccess to is the first crew
attending.
It's really important, I think,as FIs, to understand.
I've turned up at crime scenesand maybe the fire crew's not
actually there anymore becauseit's during the night or
(19:47):
whatever.
I might have turned out duringthe night time and instead come
back in daylight.
It's really important, and Ithink that's a great thing, is
that information that I onceworked on a job in glasgow
actually a murder inquiry and itwas really the first attendant
crews that, uh, pinpointed theorigin of the fire because or in
fact, they disputed theprosecution's case.
(20:07):
I was waiting for the defense,but they disputed it because
they'd actually walked into thearea where they stated the
origin of the fire was andwalked up a ladder there.
So there's no way that I couldhave started there.
Yeah, so I think that's reallyinteresting is that you get
access to that in the publicsector.
What I love about the publicsector and fi is that I'm kind
of the case officer, so you do,you take responsibility and you
(20:27):
do the whole investigation inthe fi yeah, so pick it all up.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
at the moment, because we're such a small team
and we're sort of setting up,we're monday to friday, so if
stuff happens outside of that,it'll go to one of our on-call
guys who will pick it up of anevening, hand it over to us the
following morning and stuff.
But in the long run the plan iswe will be on 24s or eights and
on call, so we will pick it upfrom start to finish.
(20:52):
It will be our job entirely.
We do all of the report writing, all of the investigation into
it and everything.
So we run it from start tofinish, which is massively
different from CSI, because ifit was a big job, you would have
your CSM who would be runningthe job and you would just go in
and dip in and out and do yourscenes and bits and pieces,
whereas we do everything fromstart to finish.
(21:13):
If there's any insuranceinvestigations that we need to
do or any testing or anything,we've got spaces set up that we
can go and do that and we canrun everything.
It's the thing that I reallylove about the FI side of it is
that it's yours to hold shapemould, do what you want with it,
do all of the investigationinto it and, yeah, the
involvement in it.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Exactly, I love that.
I used to get really frustratedwhen you go and work on a major
job and then the next day itwas forgotten about, in a way
onto the next job, and I guessthat's just the nature of CSI,
but you never necessarily findout the end result or go to
coroner's court as as fi as youwill, or even go to you, get
your statement, section nine,etc.
So all that kind of stuff.
So, yeah, really interesting.
Tell us a little bit about ouressex.
Still on the, I want to comeback to the iso, because that's
(21:58):
a big kind of elephant in theroom for a lot of fire services
and I'm an old dinosaur, butyou've gone, for I was just
leaving, as they are left in.
As I was going through I was, Iso credited, but you've been
through the whole process as asort of before the time, if you
like, before.
That's why, how is it working?
You mentioned that essex aren'tgoing to be going for, maybe
(22:18):
not going to go for it.
Do you want to just elaborate alittle bit on that?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
There was a couple of regional groups were setting
stuff up that a number of fireservices sort of bought into and
were paying into.
But with all the new changesand the regulator not making us
a credit for a while, it wassort of money that we were
spending to go into it but weweren't seeing much coming out
of it massively.
We decided that actually,rather than putting that money
(22:43):
into that accreditation processwhere we don't know how long
it's going to be, how long it'sgoing to need to be, why not put
that money and spend that moneyon us as a team?
Get the kit we need, get thosestuff and get stuff set up
working in line with that ISO,but not necessarily that we're
going to go straight for it.
Let a couple of services, havingbeen part of the first police
(23:06):
force that went for isoaccreditation and it not going
well, and ucas at that point intime didn't necessarily know
what they were looking for, theyhad to do a couple of services
before they'd worked it out.
Actually, being at theforefront is fantastic because
you're trailblazing and you sortof get to write what everybody
else is going to work to.
But but actually in a way, letothers do the hard work for you.
(23:27):
Let UCAS work out what theywant to do for that, because at
the moment nobody's got any ideawhat accreditation is going to
look like.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
UCAS are obviously an important body, but what I
found is and I have trained alot of police forces everyone
seems to be doing it slightlydifferent.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Everyone is doing everything differently.
I've had a couple of discussionswith some of the different fire
services that all of the policewent through and did everything
differently but they've allaccredited the same thing.
So all of them have theirphotography done, everyone has
their DNA done, but they've allgone out and spent money on
accrediting the same cleaningproducts Repeatedly.
You've got 40 odd services allaccredited Chemgene at the same
(24:06):
time, only for the government tothen turn around and go.
We're taking Chemgene away fromyou and us to have to then
accredit something else, whereasI think, until we know what the
picture is going to look likefor FI, why don't we then all
start working together and alldo that same thing?
As I've said to a couple ofdifferent services and I know it
got thrown around a bit withCSI, but it was never put into
(24:27):
the works we work with a numberof universities across the
country that have students whoare undertaking projects yearly
basis.
Why do we not all work together, put some input with them and
we all get all of our workaccredited through those
university projects and we putsome funding in, the university
puts funding in and then we'reall accrediting and we're all
(24:49):
working the same.
The idea with ISO was that withpolice services you would
guarantee that you would get inthe same result over and over
again.
If one service did it, theother service would get the same
.
But the thought was there thatit would also then make it
easier to move between services.
But that's not happened,because everybody's done
everything differently.
I've seen some of thedocumentation from Essex Police
(25:11):
and compared to some of thestuff that I've seen in Thames
Valley and, yes, they're doingthe same process, but everything
is so drastically differentthat I think if I went to work
with Essex Police I'd have tostart from scratch again,
because it's a whole new process.
But they're doing the samething, getting the same evidence
, and the whole idea was that weget the same information from
it and it's a guaranteed resultevery time.
(25:32):
But I don't think I could followtheir procedure and the TVP way
, somebody from up north alldoing it at the same time,
whereas I think if we all worktogether for ISO the public
sector, private sector,universities we could also then
guarantee that we're doing thesame thing, we're getting the
same results.
We could then stand up in courta lot better and go well.
(25:53):
I know that this person wouldhave looked the same and done
the same thing.
But we also then have theopportunity to move around, get
that experience in other areas,get that experience coming and
joining different teams and thenwe could guarantee that when
we're having if we're havingstaffing issues, that nearby
services would also have FIsthat could come in and would
work to the same standards as us.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, I think that's a fantastic point, both on the
CSI side and on the FI side.
You've seen a lot of jointSouthwest Forensics.
So five forces, four forces,all doing four different ways in
effect.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Surrey and Sussex, who I used to work for.
They're coming together andtheir SOPs are coming together.
But it always amazed me howmuch money is spent on quality
management services, qualitymanagement units within police
services, fire service, when youcould really just have a
national quality with probablythe same number of people
delivering the same product.
It just seems to me a massivewaste of money.
(26:47):
You've led me on beautifullythere, to be honest, with you,
Jess, into the university sideof things.
Tell me a little bit about yourproject, your electrical stuff,
because that wasn't on theagenda, if I'm honest, but I'm
just really interested in whatyou did.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Basically, I set fire to a load of wires and stuff.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
We were looking at the impact of sleeving and
looking at microbeads and beadformation on electrical cables.
I set up a sort of riggingmechanism where we could put
some electric current throughsome cabling whilst also
exposing it to external heatsources, and look at how the
external PVC cabling reacted, solooking to see if there was any
(27:23):
difference in what we could dotemperature-wise, how much it
was exposed to, how muchelectrical input it was exposed
to, and seeing if we could usethat to sort of guarantee that
it was an internal or externalheating source.
And then we were looking atsort of electrical beading so
beading's formed by arcing beadformed by arcing and fire at the
(27:45):
same time, and then just beadsformed by fire, and did some
microscopy on that and saw somereally interesting things the
speed of how quick the arc hitsand the extreme temperatures
that even with it on a flame, aswell as having that electrical
arcing, you were still justgetting that electrical arc bead
present.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Yeah, so nothing really discriminatory between
the two just because of thetemperature of the arc.
In effect, yeah.
Interesting.
I mean, maybe, if you're happy,we can share that on the
podcast and attach it to thepodcast episode.
Okay, fantastic, you mentionedabout Cranfield University, but
what year were you there andwhat did that course entail?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
So I did Cranfield, 2017field, 2017, 2018.
So I did the master's inforensic explosive and explosion
investigation.
So I did the year there and dida couple of courses, modules on
fires, explosives general sotrace evidence, your courtroom
skills and then the big thesisproject that takes up the
(28:44):
majority of your year.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yeah, sure who was there?
Mike Harris Steve.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Mike for FIRE.
Steve was there for some of theexplosive modules and also
advisor for my thesis.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Oh yeah, okay, Fantastic and a good course.
Recommend the course.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Really good, yeah, fantastic.
It was great that there were somany opportunities to do things
that you wouldn't do at a normaluni and the way that it's
organized and set up, that youdo a module and then you have a
month, so the module over theweek and then you have a month
to get the rest of thecoursework completed.
I think it's a fantastic way ofdoing stuff and it's a great
input to learn everything inthat one week and then you don't
(29:22):
have to think too much abouttoo many different things.
It's the thing I struggled withmost for undergrad, because I
don't do great with examsituations, the pressurized of
it.
So doing that single module ina week and getting all of that
information and then having thatmonth to get the practical work
, the written work and theessays and stuff done and having
(29:43):
just that one input on that onemodule at a time.
There were a couple of timeswhen I overlapped and I had
maybe two or three going on at atime, but just being able to
dedicate all of my time to thatone course, I could then get the
best grade and best result Ipossibly could for it.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
I think sure, I think it's a good set.
Did you get shriven them?
Were you shriven them at?
Speaker 2 (30:01):
that time.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Yes, yeah, fantastic yeah I think it's a great.
Obviously I did it in 1999,2000 I think, but mine was in
forensic engineering and science, but very similar modules.
I love that module formatbecause you come and you kind of
get immersed in it for the week, rather than two hour four hour
lecture or an eight hourlecture one day and then
something completely differentthe next day.
I think that works really welland it also really works for
(30:25):
part-timers as well, because youcan go and do a module, take a
week's annual leave if it willget the work, hopefully get work
to sign you off for a week andgo and do it.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
So, yeah, fantastic we had a lot of people come down
from like lots of differentareas for those week-long
modules who were part-time orwere just coming to do the
certificates in those modulesand we'd get so many people from
such different backgrounds thatit was great to get that
experience and that exposure tothe things they did as well.
So on our hazardous forensicsmodule we had people from LFB
(30:53):
come down and they were talkingto us about some of the stuff
that they did.
We also had a guy who was abarrister who was doing the
majority of the modules otherthan the courtroom module, but
he also then gave input to thatcourtroom module.
For us is in like a real lifesetting.
Rather than the forensicspecialties lecturers giving us
those inputs, we actually hadproper barristers and people who
(31:15):
worked in courts giving us thatinput yeah, brilliant.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
I think it's a really good course run by
practitioners, I think forpractitioners, if I can use that
kind of calling phrase, if youlike, fantastic jess, it's been
really interesting talking toyou.
Use that kind of corny phrase.
If you like, fantastic Jess,it's been really interesting
talking to you.
What's kind of next for you?
Where do you see yourself goingfrom here?
Speaker 2 (31:31):
The next is just keep working with Essex.
Keep working on getting thatteam up and running.
It's really nice to be in itfrom the start and be able to
sort of mould and shape what wewant.
Hopefully at some point soonwe'll be putting out some more
applications for some more FIsto join us.
Hopefully we'll be able toexpand that Green Book side of
the team and get morenon-firefighter people in, bring
their specialties from otherareas as well and keep going
(31:54):
with that until I can no longerdo it and then maybe have a look
and see into private sectorsort of stuff.
But FI CSI, that side of thingsis going to be something I'll
probably stick with for the restof my life.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, definitely, I side that side of thing is going
to be something I probablystick with for the rest of my
life.
Yeah, definitely, I thinkyou're in a fantastic position
and it's quite unusual.
I think there's not that manycivilians.
I know Lauren down at Hampshireis another one.
There are obviously civiliansout there, but I think having
that being involved in that andI think I miss the blues and
twos kind of environment beingthere first on scene or very
shortly after I really miss thatas part of on the private
sector side and the academicside now.
But what about associations?
You a member of anyassociations?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, so a member of the UKFI.
We were at the summerconference start of last month,
which was really great.
I got to meet up with some ofthe guys from Notts who I worked
with and we went and did somedog training with them after the
conference.
But I also got to meet a coupleof people from other areas.
It's how I ended up down inHampshire the other week to do
some training for them, becauseI got talking, explained what
(32:52):
I'd been doing and bits andpieces, and the plan is that
hopefully we will be going tothe conference in January and
keep up with that Also as partof my uni and my degree.
So both my undergrad and mymaster's are both Chartered
Society of Forensics and myundergrad is Royal Society of
Chemists accredited as well.
So I'm looking into sort ofgetting membership for those and
(33:13):
getting in on some of thosesort of learning just enhance my
learning and make sure I'mkeeping up to date with
everything.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, I mean there's various different kind of ways.
And there's the Institute ofFire Engineers.
You can get accredited by them.
There's Chartered Society,Chartered Forensic Practitioner
on the fire investigation side,or if you go to UK AFI, which is
obviously a chapter of theInternational Association of
Arson Investigations, you can gofor your certified fire
investigator.
You got any ambitions for that,or do you see yourself going
(33:40):
for that?
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, I've sort of taken off the list of as many
qualifications as I can get.
I've always joked about it thatmy aim is to get as many
letters of the alphabet after myname as possible.
So anything I can do, anythingthat helps with my credibility.
Going to court is sort of whatI'm aiming for, anything that
will back up and assist with anyscrutiny put on any
investigations.
I do because taking those intothe court sort of proceedings
and having all of thosequalifications and experiences
makes those better In the longrun.
(34:09):
We're putting everythingthrough court to get the best
for people out of it.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Sure, and just to sort of finish off really, I
think because we're gettingclose to our time, unfortunately
.
You've been fantastic today, tobe honest, jess.
We've kind of gone through thesort of dogmatic nature of if
you really want to get intoforensics and you have to be
determined, and I think you'vecovered the fact that there are
I always see two differentanimals there's the scene-based
animals and there's a lot of thelab people.
(34:34):
They can be very different sortof environments.
What would you recommend ifyou've got someone who's either
at university, as you weretrying to get into fi, or in the
csi field and want to get intoFI?
Have you got any through yourexperiences?
You've lived it.
So any top tips or experiences?
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Just talk to people.
Get out there to those jobs.
Or, if you're at uni, talk tothose people.
Your lecturers have beenprevious practitioners.
They're going to know people.
Reach out on LinkedIn.
It's a fantastic platform tomake contact with people and ask
for that help.
Quite a lot of fire servicesare willing to, if not talk to
you, come out to universities.
We as Essex Fire Service, goout to a lot of universities and
(35:13):
schools and we giveconversations.
Have conversations, talk inputsand there may be possibilities
that people can come out forride alongs.
We can never guarantee thatthere'll be a job, but have
those conversations, see what'savailable, make sure you get
your name out there and knownand get as much experience as
you can.
Sometimes it's difficult,especially when you're going out
to active scenes and crimescenes and bits.
(35:33):
But yeah, talk to people.
Everybody will be able to putyou in contact with somebody
who'll know what to talk about.
And even if you're just gettingin, I found the easiest way and
it was the advice everybodygave me when you want to get
into the police is get a job inthe police before you apply to
another job in the police.
So once you're in, you're in,and it's the same with fire.
Get one of those not necessarilya call handler, because that's
(35:54):
an incredibly stressful job thateven I wouldn't be able to cope
with and I've seen and dealtwith some terrible things but
get into those jobs.
So help on the reception desksor doing cleaning.
Once you're in, it's a loteasier to get in.
Don't necessarily expect thatthe first time you apply for
that dream job you're going toget it.
It's never going to happen.
If that happens, like it's amiracle, you just got to sort of
(36:16):
keep up the hope, keep goingfor it.
If it's going to be, it'll be.
It'll all fall into placeeventually yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
I mean, I tell students that I work with don't
give up.
That's primarily one of thefirst things.
If you give up, then you'renever going to get a job.
So I think the market now isvery different than when I
started.
I joined Sussex back in 99,2000.
That was a massive expansion,but now there were quite a
limited amount of degrees youcould go on then.
I don't think there was veryfew.
They're all master's degreesStrathclyde, King, et cetera,
(36:46):
and Cranfield.
But yeah, I think it's verydifferent markets.
I think some of your advice isabsolutely spot on, Fantastic.
I think.
Again, it's about buildingrelationships, LinkedIn and I
think sometimes on this podcastit sounds like I'm sponsored by
Cranfield or I'm sponsored byLinkedIn or I'm sponsored by
UKFI.
I assure you I'm not.
But these are good bodies, goodorganizations.
(37:07):
They just come up time and timeagain.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Really, I think in our world yeah massively.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Just to finish off, have you got any top tips, any
top gadgets that you can't livewithout?
Jess, I'm a bit of a gadget manmyself and I like gadgets
gadgets.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
I'm really getting back into my photography, so it
was a massive thing as part ofCSI taking your scene photos.
It's not so much for us as FIs,but it's something I'm really
getting into at the minute.
I've got personal cameras thatI use, but I'm really getting
into the 360 images and how wecan use 360 for scene mapping,
especially for, like,court-based demonstrations.
(37:39):
So we've got some insta 360sthat we find are absolutely
fantastic.
We're working with inputtingthose into VR for certain things
.
So the VR insta 360s laser wefind are absolutely fantastic.
We're working with inputtingthose into vr for certain things
.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
So the vr insta 360s, laser scanners, things like
that really loving them at theminute definitely a way to go in
terms of both scanning thescene, being able to go back and
, as you said, for presentationof evidence, electronic
presentation of evidence.
You know, I can see in thefuture a load of jurors just
sitting putting a load of googleglasses on and virtually
walking themselves around thescene, if that's necessary, so
(38:08):
fantastic.
Well, jess, it's beenabsolutely brilliant.
Today.
We've kind of not really hitmuch of the agenda that we
talked about before becausewe've just been chatting away,
which is fantastic and that'swhat I hope really from guests.
But hopefully I'll have you onagain.
Let me extend that invitationIf you want to come on again at
any time, update us with whereyou are at in Essex and things,
and please do keep in touch.
But thanks very much for comingon.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
No worries, it's been delightful.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Great Thanks.
So so much.
Cheers, jess.
Thanks, take care, cheers.
Hey, thank you for listening toCSI on Fire.
Please don't forget to like,subscribe and suggest future
topics on our webpage.
Remember factor non-verbal.
Take care, good hunting.
I hope to see you on the nextone.
(38:51):
Cheers.
Hi, welcome to CSI on Fire, the podcast that takes
you behind the scenes of thefire investigation community.
I'm your host, mike Moulden,and episode after episode, we'll
attempt to excavate the oftendifficult but always fascinating
world of the fire investigator.
Okay, welcome to CSI on Fire,your fire investigation podcast.
(00:27):
We've had a little bit of abreak over the summer holiday
and we're going to be moving topublication every two weeks, but
we've got a fantastic guest onfor you today Jessica Pierce.
Jess I hope it's okay to callyou Jess.
Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
More than happy with Jess hiya.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Good, Now listen, Jess.
You and I know each other for alittle while, but take us
through your background.
Just tell us a little bit aboutyourself before we get into the
podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
So I'm a current fire investigator with Essex Fire
and Rescue Service.
I am at the moment their onlyGreen Book member of staff.
I've just started the newdedicated team.
I moved over in March of thisyear from working as a CSI with
Thames Valley Police of thisyear.
From working as a CSI withThames Valley Police.
Before that I did my master'sdegree at Cranfield and I did my
undergrad at Nottingham Trentin Forensic Science where I did
(01:12):
a placement year with the Fireand Rescue Service in
Nottinghamshire.
I also did a year study abroadin Canada with them.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Okay, fantastic.
So we were just chatting beforewe came on air and I think I've
gone from CSI, cs, fi, but I'vegone from public sector to
private sector.
As far as I'm aware, you'repretty much unique in that
you're the only one that I knowthat's gone from CSI, public
sector to then FI.
What's your motivation?
Why FI?
Have you always been interestedin FI?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
One of the first lectures I remember doing at uni
for NTU was we had one of theguys out who came and did a
container burn for us as part ofour first sort of like forensic
input module and basically forthat first year all we really
did was write a statement onlike, watching it develop, and
we were using our writingmethods for getting information
(02:00):
into statements and making surethat we were writing facts into
our statements, and from there Isort of loved the fire
development side of it.
We had Dave Koss come down.
He showed us some of the stuffthat the dogs did.
I then went off and studied inCanada for my second year, which
was absolutely amazing.
We got to do some like reallyinteresting modules that we
wouldn't have done in Englandand while I was over there they
(02:21):
were putting out all of theseemails saying for placement
years.
So I was starting to apply forrandom placements.
So I applied for a couple ofpolice ones, some lab based ones
, and then I saw theNottinghamshire Fire Service one
come up and I thought, oh, thatwould be really interesting.
Like fire investigation isreally.
Fire was really cool.
Who doesn't like fire?
I put in for it, thinking oh,I'm not in the country, but it's
(02:43):
a great opportunity if I cancome back and maybe it's an
extra thing I could do.
And less than 24 hours aftergetting back in the country,
after being in Canada for a year, I had an interview for it.
So I was so jet lagged and Iwalked into the interview and
the team were absolutelyincredible.
The interview went really great.
Literally, later that afternoonthey offered me the placement
to go and work with them for theyear and it was the best year
(03:05):
I've ever had.
It was so good.
We got to go out to so manyjobs.
I got to work with the police.
So I did a placement with thepolice while I was with the fire
service, worked with so manydifferent departments within the
fire service and went out to somany really interesting jobs
that it was just yeah.
As soon as I went back to uni, Iwas like fi is really what I
want to do.
I did my undergrad thesis onsome of the work that I'd done
(03:27):
while I was on placement, sothey had me look into some
electrical stuff while I was onplacement with them helping them
out.
So I then took that to uni andstarted doing some testing so
that I could get somephotographs to go with the work
that I'd done with them and tookthat to them, sent that to them
.
But whilst I was still doing myfinal year at uni, I was still
popping in and doing theoccasional day, especially
during like holidays and stuff.
(03:47):
I was going and working withthem and keeping up that input
with them.
And then it came to me leavinguni and I didn't really know
what I wanted to do.
But I knew that fire wassomething I wanted.
But getting into private sectorcoming straight out of uni is
like almost impossible.
I'd applied for a couple ofsort of lab-based jobs but I
knew that that wasn't reallywhat I wanted to do.
And then I saw Cranfield'sExplosives Masters and I was
(04:11):
like, well, it's not fire, butit's the next best, really
interesting thing.
There was a couple of firemodules.
So I was like you know what?
I'll just apply for it, wentfor that, got the master's
degree, came out of it andcouldn't get into FI again.
I had a couple of interviewswith a couple of private
companies and they were like wejust want someone with a bit
more experience and I thoughtthe best way to get some
experience would be going intoCSI.
(04:32):
It was something I also reallyenjoyed.
I didn't really like the ideaof labs because I didn't like
the idea of staying inside doingthe same thing day in, day out.
Got into CSI.
It took a long time to get intoCSI.
I think I interviewed about 1520 times.
Every application I would getthrough to the interview process
, but all of them were, so itwas like a really difficult
(04:53):
interview process to get through.
It was probably the 15th oddtime that I got the phone call
going.
You're second, but we knowwe've got another person who's
going to be dropping out withinthe next six months.
So you're on that list.
The job will go to you if youwant it.
And within two weeks they wentyep, they've handed their notice
in.
We can start your applications.
So joined up with them and aspart of starting from there, as
(05:17):
you progress, you get to go tomore and more stuff, and it was
always those fire jobs that I'dbe like, yeah, I'll go to, or if
there was anything going onwith fire and stuff.
So we had a couple of the UCASbits talking to some of the fire
guys here and I'd be like, yeah, I'll volunteer to go to that
because of having that fireinput beforehand, when there
were fire jobs going on andpeople weren't 100% sure they
(05:38):
would come to me and they'd askme to go with them to the jobs
and give them that informationand it just built it up and it
just reminded me that, yes, Iloved the CSI job and it was
fantastic, the best experience,but FI is always going to be the
thing.
So while I was still doing that, there was like a couple of
times where I'd apply likeBurgoyne's would put out
applications from time to timeand I'd just send them off and
(05:58):
I'd get to the interviews andthen they'd be like we just want
someone with a little bit moreexperience.
And then it got to October lastyear and I saw the Essex job
come up and I thought you knowwhat?
I'll just apply on the offchance, won't think anything of
it, took a couple of months andI didn't hear anything.
So I completely forgot about it.
I got an email inviting me tothe interview.
It was about a week beforehandand they were like we just need
(06:19):
a presentation right in and comedown to the interview and we'll
have a bit of a chat.
And at that point in time I'dcompletely forgotten about it.
So I panicked massively, wrotethe presentation and went down
to the interview the nightbeforehand.
I'd been on call at work andmanaged to literally I finished.
I got called out.
I finished at four o'clock inthe morning and then the
following day at nine o'clock Iended up at an interview and I
(06:41):
went in and I went I'm so sorry,I'm absolutely exhausted and
the interview went absolutelyfantastically and I came out of
it going yeah, I know I got thatjob and it's been fantastic
ever since.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Fantastic.
I mean just to come back to afew things you mentioned there.
You've had to move about, soyou're originally from
Nottinghamshire and you've moveddown to Essex.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Now I was born and raised in the Midlands, went to
uni in Nottinghamshire becausemy parents turned around and
went this is a circle around ouraddress and you have to go to
uni outside that circle.
So I went up to Nottinghamshire.
So my mum did her uni up inNotts and my aunt lives up in
Derbyshire, so it's sort of aplace in the country that I
really like.
But it was a completeaccidental fluke ending up doing
(07:20):
forensics.
But yeah, then when I got thejob after doing uni, went to
Cranfield so moved down toWiltshire and then it was sort
of a wherever I get a CSI jobI'm willing to move to.
So my first CSI job was basedout of Milton Keynes so I moved
to Buckinghamshire and thenmoved to Aylesbury with Thames
Valley.
Now I've got the job in Essex.
So at the moment I'm stillliving in Buckinghamshire.
(07:41):
The plan is to move.
It's a bit of a commute at theminute.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, I think that's something to say.
I mean, I talk to a lot ofuniversity students and they're
all desperate for jobs and, asyou sort of described it, it's
quite difficult no-transcriptyou out wherever they can.
(08:15):
Fantastic.
You mentioned about you beingjust for the non-fire
firefighters and the fireservice.
You mentioned about a greenbook.
Do you just want to tell meabout what the green book is, or
tell listeners what the greenbook is?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
yeah, so I'm basically a civilian member of
staff, so I don't have to do so.
For the firefighters who moveover into fi, they have to keep
up their firefightercompetencies.
A couple of times a month theygo out on a truck.
They keep up their competencies, whereas I have come in like a
civilian.
It's basically what a csi inpolice, so I would be a civilian
member of staff for both and aspart of that I'm able to attend
(08:48):
, but I don't have anymanagement capabilities at that
fire scene.
So I might be the most seniorrank, but my rank doesn't count
towards anything.
But still I'm able to go and doeverything that they would do
other than put out a fire,basically.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Sure, and we chatted just before we started.
I want to sort of talk aboutthe transition from public
sector to public sector.
How have you found that?
Have you found the two?
Obviously, police is verydifferent than fire service, but
what is the difference?
How have you found that?
Has that been an easytransition?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
a lot of issues with, like, the rank system there and
people wouldn't necessarilytake you seriously because you
were a civilian member of staff.
You would sometimes have theissues between the higher
ranking police officers and thencivilian members of staff, but
it wasn't so much of an issue,it was when you were moving out
of area.
If you knew the officers theywould all be fine.
But if you were moving becausewe covered quite a massive area
with Thames Valley Police if youwould be going from
(09:50):
Buckinghamshire all the way downto the bottom end of Berkshire
and they didn't really know youbut they'd had a badish like bad
time with a CSI or somebodypreviously, then they'd always
sort of hold a bit of resentment.
But I've had none of that withfire service moving into fire.
People understand that you knowmore.
You're not necessarily knowmore about the firefighting side
, but you've come in with all ofthat knowledge.
(10:10):
And come in with that becauseyou wouldn't have got the job if
you didn't have the knowledgein the background to cover it.
I've worked with so as part ofour team we've got three of us
on the dedicated team, so myline manager and then another
guy who moved in at the sametime as I did, and he's been in
firefighting BA trainer so heknows a lot about fire
development and gettinginformation from him is great.
(10:31):
And then we have flexi officers,so they are station managers
who do a bolt-on with the fireinvestigation so as part of
their day duties they'll pickthat up.
I was a little bit concernedcoming in because everybody's
male I'm the only female in thedepartment now and I was a
little bit concerned that comingin as a female as a green book,
that it would cause some issues.
But all of them are absolutelyfantastic.
(10:52):
They're like we understand thatyou've got the knowledge from
the CSI coming in and, beingprobably the youngest on the
team, I also have the IT skillsthat they don't necessarily have
, so they're all quite happy tophone me up and come to me if
they've got any issues and Ifind that that really like.
I feel like I've massively beenwelcomed in to the team as well
.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah, obviously I was in police service for some time
, also as a civilian.
But I always think it alwaysamazes me if I go back and I do
some reviews and bits and pieces.
Now they kind of respect me forall the time I've spent, but in
force they would rather have.
I guess it's a risk managementthing, maybe that SIOs would
prefer to go out to, say, anexternal forensic service
provider because in a certainway that covers their arse in a
(11:31):
way, as opposed to having itinternal.
They're ultimately responsiblefor it.
But I think it's fantastic.
I mean, I've never had a badexperience with a fire service
ever Major scenes and stuff.
I remember we're getting intothe CSI side of things, but I
remember being at major scenesand it was the fire service used
to provide us with food andwelfare et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
All day, every day, I think in my entire time working
for the police.
I think I had maybe one or twomeals bought for me by the
police when I'd been down atscene for like 18 odd hours Fire
service.
You don't even need to be afire service worker and they'll
bring you food they bring youdrinks.
It's also the perception ofmembers of the public, I found
is massively different as well.
I remember the last set of bigmurders.
(12:12):
I worked in TVP, like this timelast year, and it was
absolutely boiling out and wewere all in our scene suits and
it was horrible and a couple ofmembers of the public would come
up and they'd bring us colddrinks and ice creams and stuff
but they would literally drop,drop it and run.
They wouldn't want to hangaround and talk because they
don't want to be seen to betalking to police, whereas fire,
you'll go out to a job andeverybody.
(12:34):
It's so much easier to getinformation from members of the
public when they've seen stuffbecause they'll just come
straight up to you and tell youeverything because they don't
feel that there's going to bethose repercussions.
I think, yeah, it's sodifferent for the public
perception side as well.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Yeah, exactly, I mean I wear firefighters trousers
and shirt and I don't normallywear a tunic but I normally wear
the trousers and I find that,as you rightly said, compared to
being a CSI and you're whites,people are much more willing to
give you information and sharebits and pieces than they are.
So 100% agree with you thatthere's a public perception that
(13:09):
don't talk to the police or theSOCO or the CSI, but it's okay
to have a chat with the fireservice.
So, yeah, 100% agree with that.
Even in the private sector, Iwear that kind of kit just
because one, it's comfortablefor me, because I like the
braces and all that kind ofstuff and slides over the top,
but also just from a, I foundnot being identified as a member
of the police or as a privatesector and having that fire
(13:30):
service sort of trousers on,people are much more willing to
talk to you.
So, just when you've joined, isthere any additional training?
Have you got to be ba trainedor anything like?
What training have they put youthrough?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
so I don't have to be ba trained.
I did while I was working withknots.
I did a couple of bits of BAwith them because one of the
guys on the team is BA training.
When they put their coursesback on at the end of the year I
think the plan is that we'll goand do a couple of bits of fire
development, just practice withthe BA stuff on.
I already had my level five, somy level five fire
investigation I did that throughthe police.
(14:01):
So I did that at the fireservice college with the police.
So TVP sort of insist onputting all of their CSIs
through in case there's anincident where you can't get an
FI out with you from fireservice.
Then you've at least got somebasic knowledge.
They didn't insist that we gotthe certificate, but they
insisted that we went on theweek.
But knowing that FI was thething that I really loved, I
(14:22):
insisted on getting mycertificate.
So I got my report in andgraded and stuff.
I've already done that.
We're also training.
So we have a skills for justiceaccredited level one course for
our tier ones.
I've been training on that andas part of that training on
those I'm getting qualificationsin adult teaching and
assessment as well.
(14:42):
They're also putting me, as ofprobably the start of next month
I'm going on my level threefire safety and I will then get
my level four and level fivefire safety as well brilliant,
okay, fantastic.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
I think it's really important that kind of stuff, to
know what should be there onthe fire safety side, what
barriers should be there, andthat kind of stuff.
I just think that makes usbetter fis at the end of the day
.
Fantastic.
What about you?
I?
It's going to be obvious to youand me in the sense of that,
but maybe not to the listener.
How have you found thetransition of skills?
Obviously you've recognised atthe fire service for your CSI
skills.
Is it difficult now to stepback from that, or do you find
(15:19):
that a problem?
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Massively.
So I went down to a job.
It was my first solo job afterbeing signed off with Essex
because they made me do a littlebit of a competence to check
that I was working to their sortof standards as they should do.
So it was my first proper solojob and my boss came down, but a
little bit after me, just todouble check that I was getting
on okay.
And the CSI turned up and I waslike, oh, can you go and take
your photos and then come backout.
(15:40):
And then I was like and thenI've got this list of questions
like can we check if the suspecthad been arrested?
Can we check if he's got anybleeding injuries?
Can we check this, this?
And I'm like no, that's thecompletely wrong head, that's
not what I need to be thinkingof.
But the CSI turned around andwent.
Actually it's really great tohave you here because I hadn't
thought about half thosequestions, so having that extra
perspective.
So I've been helping one of theother guys who hasn't got his
(16:02):
level five yet, is in theprocess of completing his
everything.
So I've been taking him out tojobs and pointing stuff out and
actually giving him that input.
It's going to make the CSI'sjob easier because we're
preserving stuff for them.
We're highlighting thingsbecause oftentimes we're there
before they are, because we'redeployed out at the time when
the fire's still going, becausewe're allowed to be on scene
(16:22):
when the fire's still burningand we're going to see more of
the fire development, get moreinformation from that than the
CSIs actually need.
So we're oftentimes therebefore them.
So we're highlighting thingsand if we can highlight them
sooner and put them to one sidemake sure nobody's near them and
bits and pieces we'represerving the scene.
So we're going to get betterstuff from that.
For police wise we do CPD daysevery quarter.
(16:44):
So I've been putting input intothat.
But as part of that I've alsobeen writing.
So because of iso and that fun,because I did that as police
and I know that quite wellbecause I did all of the ucas
visits and everything helpedwrite some of the procedures.
I've sort of taken on board theprocedure side of stuff as well
.
So I'm rewriting ouranti-contamination cleaning
(17:06):
notes, procedures, all of thatsort of stuff, reorganizing
everything.
Everybody hates it because I'vecome in and I've just sort of
reorganized everything.
We're not necessarily going forthe ISO, but it puts us in good
stead to show that we'reworking towards it and, having
come from those standardsalready, I know roughly what we
need to be implementing to getthere.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Sure, I mean, it sounds to me like Essex got a
good hire.
They've killed two birds withone stone, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, I've done some input with some of the other
services.
So I was down at Hampshire atthe start of this month giving
them some input into some of theforms and documents that they
were using.
So they've just moved over tothe SFR reporting process.
So I gave them because I've hadthe police input on the SFRs
(17:54):
and I've amended all of Essex'sSFR documents.
So I gave them some input.
I'm heading up to West Midds atthe end of next month to go and
give them some input and go anddo some audits for them.
Great experiences.
It's really good to get aroundand see people and sort of see
what they're working on, whatwe're working on and how we can
all work together and help eachother out.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Sure For those sort of non-UK-based listeners.
Do you want to just describewhat SFR is?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Streamlined Forensic Reporting.
It's a four-step process to getthe forensic information into
the court system as easily andas concisely as possible.
So it's an initial report, isan SFR, which is basically you
write it 24 hours, 48 hoursafter you've gone to an incident
or after you've done a job, andit basically lists off basic
(18:32):
information and your finalconclusion and that is it.
So we'd use those, we get themto the police within 24 hours,
especially if they've got peoplein custody, and they can charge
based off those If they're thengoing to start doing interviews
and questioning off of those.
We then have the SFR 1, which isa bit more detailed but we
still don't go into every singlething, but they can then use
(18:52):
that.
That can then be sent off tocourt and then the prosecution
and defence can raise anyqueries or questions.
They send them back to us andthen we put in what is an SFR 2.
There's two different types.
There's an expert witness and anon-expert witness.
So we use the expert witness,where we write a full report
(19:13):
based off of those questions andqueries that have been raised
to take to court, and that SFR2goes with us to court and that
is basically our witnessstatement.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Yeah, fantastic and summarised so well.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Can you tell?
I've done that a couple oftimes, yeah exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, one of one thing I thought about was when
you mentioned about CSIs and FIsand the difference is that as
an FI now you're there primarilybefore the CSI and the other
thing I think that you getaccess to is the first crew
attending.
It's really important, I think,as FIs, to understand.
I've turned up at crime scenesand maybe the fire crew's not
actually there anymore becauseit's during the night or
(19:47):
whatever.
I might have turned out duringthe night time and instead come
back in daylight.
It's really important, and Ithink that's a great thing, is
that information that I onceworked on a job in glasgow
actually a murder inquiry and itwas really the first attendant
crews that, uh, pinpointed theorigin of the fire because or in
fact, they disputed theprosecution's case.
(20:07):
I was waiting for the defense,but they disputed it because
they'd actually walked into thearea where they stated the
origin of the fire was andwalked up a ladder there.
So there's no way that I couldhave started there.
Yeah, so I think that's reallyinteresting is that you get
access to that in the publicsector.
What I love about the publicsector and fi is that I'm kind
of the case officer, so you do,you take responsibility and you
(20:27):
do the whole investigation inthe fi yeah, so pick it all up.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
at the moment, because we're such a small team
and we're sort of setting up,we're monday to friday, so if
stuff happens outside of that,it'll go to one of our on-call
guys who will pick it up of anevening, hand it over to us the
following morning and stuff.
But in the long run the plan iswe will be on 24s or eights and
on call, so we will pick it upfrom start to finish.
(20:52):
It will be our job entirely.
We do all of the report writing, all of the investigation into
it and everything.
So we run it from start tofinish, which is massively
different from CSI, because ifit was a big job, you would have
your CSM who would be runningthe job and you would just go in
and dip in and out and do yourscenes and bits and pieces,
whereas we do everything fromstart to finish.
(21:13):
If there's any insuranceinvestigations that we need to
do or any testing or anything,we've got spaces set up that we
can go and do that and we canrun everything.
It's the thing that I reallylove about the FI side of it is
that it's yours to hold shapemould, do what you want with it,
do all of the investigationinto it and, yeah, the
involvement in it.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Exactly, I love that.
I used to get really frustratedwhen you go and work on a major
job and then the next day itwas forgotten about, in a way
onto the next job, and I guessthat's just the nature of CSI,
but you never necessarily findout the end result or go to
coroner's court as as fi as youwill, or even go to you, get
your statement, section nine,etc.
So all that kind of stuff.
So, yeah, really interesting.
Tell us a little bit about ouressex.
Still on the, I want to comeback to the iso, because that's
(21:58):
a big kind of elephant in theroom for a lot of fire services
and I'm an old dinosaur, butyou've gone, for I was just
leaving, as they are left in.
As I was going through I was, Iso credited, but you've been
through the whole process as asort of before the time, if you
like, before.
That's why, how is it working?
You mentioned that essex aren'tgoing to be going for, maybe
(22:18):
not going to go for it.
Do you want to just elaborate alittle bit on that?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
There was a couple of regional groups were setting
stuff up that a number of fireservices sort of bought into and
were paying into.
But with all the new changesand the regulator not making us
a credit for a while, it wassort of money that we were
spending to go into it but weweren't seeing much coming out
of it massively.
We decided that actually,rather than putting that money
(22:43):
into that accreditation processwhere we don't know how long
it's going to be, how long it'sgoing to need to be, why not put
that money and spend that moneyon us as a team?
Get the kit we need, get thosestuff and get stuff set up
working in line with that ISO,but not necessarily that we're
going to go straight for it.
Let a couple of services, havingbeen part of the first police
(23:06):
force that went for isoaccreditation and it not going
well, and ucas at that point intime didn't necessarily know
what they were looking for, theyhad to do a couple of services
before they'd worked it out.
Actually, being at theforefront is fantastic because
you're trailblazing and you sortof get to write what everybody
else is going to work to.
But but actually in a way, letothers do the hard work for you.
(23:27):
Let UCAS work out what theywant to do for that, because at
the moment nobody's got any ideawhat accreditation is going to
look like.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
UCAS are obviously an important body, but what I
found is and I have trained alot of police forces everyone
seems to be doing it slightlydifferent.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Everyone is doing everything differently.
I've had a couple of discussionswith some of the different fire
services that all of the policewent through and did everything
differently but they've allaccredited the same thing.
So all of them have theirphotography done, everyone has
their DNA done, but they've allgone out and spent money on
accrediting the same cleaningproducts Repeatedly.
You've got 40 odd services allaccredited Chemgene at the same
(24:06):
time, only for the government tothen turn around and go.
We're taking Chemgene away fromyou and us to have to then
accredit something else, whereasI think, until we know what the
picture is going to look likefor FI, why don't we then all
start working together and alldo that same thing?
As I've said to a couple ofdifferent services and I know it
got thrown around a bit withCSI, but it was never put into
(24:27):
the works we work with a numberof universities across the
country that have students whoare undertaking projects yearly
basis.
Why do we not all work together, put some input with them and
we all get all of our workaccredited through those
university projects and we putsome funding in, the university
puts funding in and then we'reall accrediting and we're all
(24:49):
working the same.
The idea with ISO was that withpolice services you would
guarantee that you would get inthe same result over and over
again.
If one service did it, theother service would get the same
.
But the thought was there thatit would also then make it
easier to move between services.
But that's not happened,because everybody's done
everything differently.
I've seen some of thedocumentation from Essex Police
(25:11):
and compared to some of thestuff that I've seen in Thames
Valley and, yes, they're doingthe same process, but everything
is so drastically differentthat I think if I went to work
with Essex Police I'd have tostart from scratch again,
because it's a whole new process.
But they're doing the samething, getting the same evidence
, and the whole idea was that weget the same information from
it and it's a guaranteed resultevery time.
(25:32):
But I don't think I could followtheir procedure and the TVP way
, somebody from up north alldoing it at the same time,
whereas I think if we all worktogether for ISO the public
sector, private sector,universities we could also then
guarantee that we're doing thesame thing, we're getting the
same results.
We could then stand up in courta lot better and go well.
(25:53):
I know that this person wouldhave looked the same and done
the same thing.
But we also then have theopportunity to move around, get
that experience in other areas,get that experience coming and
joining different teams and thenwe could guarantee that when
we're having if we're havingstaffing issues, that nearby
services would also have FIsthat could come in and would
work to the same standards as us.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, I think that's a fantastic point, both on the
CSI side and on the FI side.
You've seen a lot of jointSouthwest Forensics.
So five forces, four forces,all doing four different ways in
effect.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Surrey and Sussex, who I used to work for.
They're coming together andtheir SOPs are coming together.
But it always amazed me howmuch money is spent on quality
management services, qualitymanagement units within police
services, fire service, when youcould really just have a
national quality with probablythe same number of people
delivering the same product.
It just seems to me a massivewaste of money.
(26:47):
You've led me on beautifullythere, to be honest, with you,
Jess, into the university sideof things.
Tell me a little bit about yourproject, your electrical stuff,
because that wasn't on theagenda, if I'm honest, but I'm
just really interested in whatyou did.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Basically, I set fire to a load of wires and stuff.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
We were looking at the impact of sleeving and
looking at microbeads and beadformation on electrical cables.
I set up a sort of riggingmechanism where we could put
some electric current throughsome cabling whilst also
exposing it to external heatsources, and look at how the
external PVC cabling reacted, solooking to see if there was any
(27:23):
difference in what we could dotemperature-wise, how much it
was exposed to, how muchelectrical input it was exposed
to, and seeing if we could usethat to sort of guarantee that
it was an internal or externalheating source.
And then we were looking atsort of electrical beading so
beading's formed by arcing beadformed by arcing and fire at the
(27:45):
same time, and then just beadsformed by fire, and did some
microscopy on that and saw somereally interesting things the
speed of how quick the arc hitsand the extreme temperatures
that even with it on a flame, aswell as having that electrical
arcing, you were still justgetting that electrical arc bead
present.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Yeah, so nothing really discriminatory between
the two just because of thetemperature of the arc.
In effect, yeah.
Interesting.
I mean, maybe, if you're happy,we can share that on the
podcast and attach it to thepodcast episode.
Okay, fantastic, you mentionedabout Cranfield University, but
what year were you there andwhat did that course entail?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
So I did Cranfield, 2017field, 2017, 2018.
So I did the master's inforensic explosive and explosion
investigation.
So I did the year there and dida couple of courses, modules on
fires, explosives general sotrace evidence, your courtroom
skills and then the big thesisproject that takes up the
(28:44):
majority of your year.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yeah, sure who was there?
Mike Harris Steve.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Mike for FIRE.
Steve was there for some of theexplosive modules and also
advisor for my thesis.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Oh yeah, okay, Fantastic and a good course.
Recommend the course.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Really good, yeah, fantastic.
It was great that there were somany opportunities to do things
that you wouldn't do at a normaluni and the way that it's
organized and set up, that youdo a module and then you have a
month, so the module over theweek and then you have a month
to get the rest of thecoursework completed.
I think it's a fantastic way ofdoing stuff and it's a great
input to learn everything inthat one week and then you don't
(29:22):
have to think too much abouttoo many different things.
It's the thing I struggled withmost for undergrad, because I
don't do great with examsituations, the pressurized of
it.
So doing that single module ina week and getting all of that
information and then having thatmonth to get the practical work
, the written work and theessays and stuff done and having
(29:43):
just that one input on that onemodule at a time.
There were a couple of timeswhen I overlapped and I had
maybe two or three going on at atime, but just being able to
dedicate all of my time to thatone course, I could then get the
best grade and best result Ipossibly could for it.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
I think sure, I think it's a good set.
Did you get shriven them?
Were you shriven them at?
Speaker 2 (30:01):
that time.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Yes, yeah, fantastic yeah I think it's a great.
Obviously I did it in 1999,2000 I think, but mine was in
forensic engineering and science, but very similar modules.
I love that module formatbecause you come and you kind of
get immersed in it for the week, rather than two hour four hour
lecture or an eight hourlecture one day and then
something completely differentthe next day.
I think that works really welland it also really works for
(30:25):
part-timers as well, because youcan go and do a module, take a
week's annual leave if it willget the work, hopefully get work
to sign you off for a week andgo and do it.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
So, yeah, fantastic we had a lot of people come down
from like lots of differentareas for those week-long
modules who were part-time orwere just coming to do the
certificates in those modulesand we'd get so many people from
such different backgrounds thatit was great to get that
experience and that exposure tothe things they did as well.
So on our hazardous forensicsmodule we had people from LFB
(30:53):
come down and they were talkingto us about some of the stuff
that they did.
We also had a guy who was abarrister who was doing the
majority of the modules otherthan the courtroom module, but
he also then gave input to thatcourtroom module.
For us is in like a real lifesetting.
Rather than the forensicspecialties lecturers giving us
those inputs, we actually hadproper barristers and people who
(31:15):
worked in courts giving us thatinput yeah, brilliant.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
I think it's a really good course run by
practitioners, I think forpractitioners, if I can use that
kind of calling phrase, if youlike, fantastic jess, it's been
really interesting talking toyou.
Use that kind of corny phrase.
If you like, fantastic Jess,it's been really interesting
talking to you.
What's kind of next for you?
Where do you see yourself goingfrom here?
Speaker 2 (31:31):
The next is just keep working with Essex.
Keep working on getting thatteam up and running.
It's really nice to be in itfrom the start and be able to
sort of mould and shape what wewant.
Hopefully at some point soonwe'll be putting out some more
applications for some more FIsto join us.
Hopefully we'll be able toexpand that Green Book side of
the team and get morenon-firefighter people in, bring
their specialties from otherareas as well and keep going
(31:54):
with that until I can no longerdo it and then maybe have a look
and see into private sectorsort of stuff.
But FI CSI, that side of thingsis going to be something I'll
probably stick with for the restof my life.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, definitely, I side that side of thing is going
to be something I probablystick with for the rest of my
life.
Yeah, definitely, I thinkyou're in a fantastic position
and it's quite unusual.
I think there's not that manycivilians.
I know Lauren down at Hampshireis another one.
There are obviously civiliansout there, but I think having
that being involved in that andI think I miss the blues and
twos kind of environment beingthere first on scene or very
shortly after I really miss thatas part of on the private
sector side and the academicside now.
But what about associations?
You a member of anyassociations?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, so a member of the UKFI.
We were at the summerconference start of last month,
which was really great.
I got to meet up with some ofthe guys from Notts who I worked
with and we went and did somedog training with them after the
conference.
But I also got to meet a coupleof people from other areas.
It's how I ended up down inHampshire the other week to do
some training for them, becauseI got talking, explained what
(32:52):
I'd been doing and bits andpieces, and the plan is that
hopefully we will be going tothe conference in January and
keep up with that Also as partof my uni and my degree.
So both my undergrad and mymaster's are both Chartered
Society of Forensics and myundergrad is Royal Society of
Chemists accredited as well.
So I'm looking into sort ofgetting membership for those and
(33:13):
getting in on some of thosesort of learning just enhance my
learning and make sure I'mkeeping up to date with
everything.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, I mean there's various different kind of ways.
And there's the Institute ofFire Engineers.
You can get accredited by them.
There's Chartered Society,Chartered Forensic Practitioner
on the fire investigation side,or if you go to UK AFI, which is
obviously a chapter of theInternational Association of
Arson Investigations, you can gofor your certified fire
investigator.
You got any ambitions for that,or do you see yourself going
(33:40):
for that?
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, I've sort of taken off the list of as many
qualifications as I can get.
I've always joked about it thatmy aim is to get as many
letters of the alphabet after myname as possible.
So anything I can do, anythingthat helps with my credibility.
Going to court is sort of whatI'm aiming for, anything that
will back up and assist with anyscrutiny put on any
investigations.
I do because taking those intothe court sort of proceedings
and having all of thosequalifications and experiences
makes those better In the longrun.
(34:09):
We're putting everythingthrough court to get the best
for people out of it.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Sure, and just to sort of finish off really, I
think because we're gettingclose to our time, unfortunately
.
You've been fantastic today, tobe honest, jess.
We've kind of gone through thesort of dogmatic nature of if
you really want to get intoforensics and you have to be
determined, and I think you'vecovered the fact that there are
I always see two differentanimals there's the scene-based
animals and there's a lot of thelab people.
(34:34):
They can be very different sortof environments.
What would you recommend ifyou've got someone who's either
at university, as you weretrying to get into fi, or in the
csi field and want to get intoFI?
Have you got any through yourexperiences?
You've lived it.
So any top tips or experiences?
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Just talk to people.
Get out there to those jobs.
Or, if you're at uni, talk tothose people.
Your lecturers have beenprevious practitioners.
They're going to know people.
Reach out on LinkedIn.
It's a fantastic platform tomake contact with people and ask
for that help.
Quite a lot of fire servicesare willing to, if not talk to
you, come out to universities.
We as Essex Fire Service, goout to a lot of universities and
(35:13):
schools and we giveconversations.
Have conversations, talk inputsand there may be possibilities
that people can come out forride alongs.
We can never guarantee thatthere'll be a job, but have
those conversations, see what'savailable, make sure you get
your name out there and knownand get as much experience as
you can.
Sometimes it's difficult,especially when you're going out
to active scenes and crimescenes and bits.
(35:33):
But yeah, talk to people.
Everybody will be able to putyou in contact with somebody
who'll know what to talk about.
And even if you're just gettingin, I found the easiest way and
it was the advice everybodygave me when you want to get
into the police is get a job inthe police before you apply to
another job in the police.
So once you're in, you're in,and it's the same with fire.
Get one of those not necessarilya call handler, because that's
(35:54):
an incredibly stressful job thateven I wouldn't be able to cope
with and I've seen and dealtwith some terrible things but
get into those jobs.
So help on the reception desksor doing cleaning.
Once you're in, it's a loteasier to get in.
Don't necessarily expect thatthe first time you apply for
that dream job you're going toget it.
It's never going to happen.
If that happens, like it's amiracle, you just got to sort of
(36:16):
keep up the hope, keep goingfor it.
If it's going to be, it'll be.
It'll all fall into placeeventually yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
I mean, I tell students that I work with don't
give up.
That's primarily one of thefirst things.
If you give up, then you'renever going to get a job.
So I think the market now isvery different than when I
started.
I joined Sussex back in 99,2000.
That was a massive expansion,but now there were quite a
limited amount of degrees youcould go on then.
I don't think there was veryfew.
They're all master's degreesStrathclyde, King, et cetera,
(36:46):
and Cranfield.
But yeah, I think it's verydifferent markets.
I think some of your advice isabsolutely spot on, Fantastic.
I think.
Again, it's about buildingrelationships, LinkedIn and I
think sometimes on this podcastit sounds like I'm sponsored by
Cranfield or I'm sponsored byLinkedIn or I'm sponsored by
UKFI.
I assure you I'm not.
But these are good bodies, goodorganizations.
(37:07):
They just come up time and timeagain.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Really, I think in our world yeah massively.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Just to finish off, have you got any top tips, any
top gadgets that you can't livewithout?
Jess, I'm a bit of a gadget manmyself and I like gadgets
gadgets.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
I'm really getting back into my photography, so it
was a massive thing as part ofCSI taking your scene photos.
It's not so much for us as FIs,but it's something I'm really
getting into at the minute.
I've got personal cameras thatI use, but I'm really getting
into the 360 images and how wecan use 360 for scene mapping,
especially for, like,court-based demonstrations.
(37:39):
So we've got some insta 360sthat we find are absolutely
fantastic.
We're working with inputtingthose into VR for certain things
.
So the VR insta 360s laser wefind are absolutely fantastic.
We're working with inputtingthose into vr for certain things
.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
So the vr insta 360s, laser scanners, things like
that really loving them at theminute definitely a way to go in
terms of both scanning thescene, being able to go back and
, as you said, for presentationof evidence, electronic
presentation of evidence.
You know, I can see in thefuture a load of jurors just
sitting putting a load of googleglasses on and virtually
walking themselves around thescene, if that's necessary, so
(38:08):
fantastic.
Well, jess, it's beenabsolutely brilliant.
Today.
We've kind of not really hitmuch of the agenda that we
talked about before becausewe've just been chatting away,
which is fantastic and that'swhat I hope really from guests.
But hopefully I'll have you onagain.
Let me extend that invitationIf you want to come on again at
any time, update us with whereyou are at in Essex and things,
and please do keep in touch.
But thanks very much for comingon.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
No worries, it's been delightful.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Great Thanks.
So so much.
Cheers, jess.
Thanks, take care, cheers.
Hey, thank you for listening toCSI on Fire.
Please don't forget to like,subscribe and suggest future
topics on our webpage.
Remember factor non-verbal.
Take care, good hunting.
I hope to see you on the nextone.
(38:51):
Cheers.
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